Guild Wars 2

Tigaseye.2047:

As opposed to the, largely mistaken, common belief (especially in very capitalistic countries, like the US) that witnessing other people’s success/wealth/fortune motivates people to work harder.

I would like to know what you are basing this on.
As far as I know that statement is true – seeing others being better off does motivate people to move.

I come from an ex-communist Eastern European country – I know first hand how damaging the fact that people’s wealth was “hard capped” turned out to be.

In my country everyone’s success meant more or less the same – you could not own more than one house, one car, you had money but couldn’t buy more or significantly different items.

It was a case of “if everyone is rich nobody is” – and that was the main reason nobody really tried for anything. Everybody worked but everything about the way things moved was kitten – because no matter how hard ( or little) you worked at the end of the day you couldn’t really get more or better stuff in order to significantly improve your life or that of your family.

So you know what people did? They decided to put in just enough effort to not get fired or in trouble with the authorities, their employers and the state and then basically called it a day.

My country has been recovering from this prevalent situation that was the social norm for nearly 50 years – and it is still encountered today is many state-owned or public office jobs.

Before you come to these forums imparting knowledge – make sure you actually know what you are talking about.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Tigaseye.2047:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

With peak performance only being about 10% difference between exotic and ascended, most players are already mechanically “best off”.

It is probably worth noting, here, that “real” raiders, in WoW, most of whom min/max obsessively, would laugh at the idea of 10% being considered very little difference.

I’m not really sure why people have decided 10% doesn’t matter, here?

In one way it’s good, I suppose, as it should be about talent, not gear…

…but, quite frankly, it also reeks heavily of people being falsely and continuously reassured, in an attempt to keep the maximum number of players happy.

Or not so unhappy.

I never said it was “very little difference”. I don’t care what “real” raiders in WoW think, since what a “real” raider is defined as is an arbitrary set that exists solely to justify your claims. This isn’t WoW. I never said 10% didn’t matter, either. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Personally I think of Runescape as a frame of reference. In Runescape, every successive tier of equipment is 10%-20% stronger than the last, and an order of magnitude more expensive. First you spend a few thousand, then you spend a few million, then you spend tens of millions, then you spend hundreds of millions. It gets out of hand quite quickly, and a lower tier has little to no chance against anything not immediately in succession. It would be like if after ascended were legendary (10% over ascended), and then after legendary there was epic (10% over legendary), and epic cost 30k gold per piece.

GW2 is not as bad. Yes, the difference between exotic and ascended is nearly an order of magnitude in cost, but a good portion of it is superfluous. The trinkets are bought with a daily reward currency distributed equally among all players, or with other currencies earned independent of gold. The armor contributes the most minuscule of differences, of so the only thing you need to "buy’ are the weapons. And the weapons themselves are a 6% difference.

The reason why 10% is on the threshold of “not too bad” is because it is within the margins of the random number generator. Weapon attack strength varies by a total of 10% per skill use, so even with an ascended weapon there is no guarantee that in any particular fight your opponent won’t luck out and either do high damage, or you do low damage. It is only after a long series of trials that the obvious pattern emerges. Likewise, this is only true for direct damage. The total advantage granted by ascended for condition damage is much smaller (weapon attack strength doesn’t matter, so around 5%). There is a large overlap in performance between these two sets, so much that there is kitten chance that exotic will be in the performance range of ascended.

Another thing to note is that GW2’s mechanics are heavily skill-based – meaning you can make up for the 10% less powerful gear through skill in most situations.

Improving your rotations, dodges, timing, positioning can vastly improve your overall performance – far more than your gear can.

If this was a more static game – I would agree 10% could be bigger – but in this case we have to look at the context. There is plenty of room to improve as a player before you can really say that it was the 10% lower stats on your gear that made you fail.

DnT proved to us how even the hardest content – Raids – can be easily cleared with time to spare if you know what you are doing. I’m sure they could have cleared it in exotic gear as well.

The only thing left is for people to step up their game.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

There are plenty of cheap items which are as rare as other items of similar acquisition methods but their prices are radically different because of the value the playerbase places on them. Genesis and Entropy are a prime example.

You really should have looked deeper into how each of those skins is obtained. Hint: one is not like the other, and the difference lies not in visuals.

So, I was curious enough after reading this post to look up how Genesis and Entropy are obtained.

Genesis: Acquisition
Dungeoneer’s Grandmaster Chest
Gilded Coffer
Grand Weapon Crate

Entropy: Acquisition
Dungeoneer’s Grandmaster Chest
Gilded Coffer
Grand Weapon Crate

The methods of acquisition look the same to me.

Those are not exactly accurate, unless something changed recently. Genesis dropped from different champ boxes (svanir/icebrood ones) than entropy (risen). Look at the original dulfy page
(http://dulfy.net/2013/08/06/gw2-champion-weapon-skins/). Maybe i am wrong and this has changed since then, but originally one of them was supplied in significantly greater numbers than the other.

Edit: found that one too. Again, this suggest that either wiki is wrong, or something has changed recently (which i doubt).

Jana.6831:

No, I really wasn’t able to and since WoW is the worst game possible in my opinion from a to z, I brought it up as an example to show you how a TP “controlled by the rich” really looks like.
I was level 80 then and was thinking about getting the expansion or leaving the game – I left as I had no chance to get a level appropriate weapon. That much to discouraging players.
I guess the rest of what you wrote is because of your confusion as to why I brought WoW up – I hope I explained why I did.

Just to clarify, this was level 80 gear, when level 80 was the cap and the xpac you were considering buying was Cata?

The thing is, that things have changed a lot, since then.

…and then, have changed back.

They changed for the best in late Cata and MoP xpacs (e.g. challenging LFR, with good loot) and then they changed, again, for the worst, in WoD (e.g. faceroll LFR with, largely, pointless loot).

Whereas, I would have recommended you try WoW, again, in late Cata/MoP, had you being saying this then; I couldn’t recommend you try it again, now.

Who knows what Legion will be like?

Unfortunately, I don’t trust Blizzard to do the right thing, anymore.

They seem to just count comments and ignore the type of people posting them and the true feelings of most of their (mostly silent, let’s face it) players.

If they continue to go from their official forums, which you can only post on if you’re still subbed, or from things like the ranting and hostile YouTube comments, which are often posted by obviously crazy people*, they’re utter fools.

Even if those people were representative, which they’re not, it amounts to professional suicide for a company to go with unreasonable, irrational, totally selfish points of view.

No serious company should ever risk that, especially as it is not something you can (easily) recover from.

Whereas, you can, as a company, reasonably expect irrational, selfish, people to have to conform to your rational, selfless, product; you simply cannot expect the same, the other way around.

*Even in their photo avatars they, very often, look like totally deranged, wide-eyed lunatics, frankly.

It’s bad enough that people are forced to play with these types of people, at all, without the game being entirely built around them.

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

As opposed to the, largely mistaken, common belief (especially in very capitalistic countries, like the US) that witnessing other people’s success/wealth/fortune motivates people to work harder.

I would like to know what you are basing this on.
As far as I know that statement is true – seeing others being better off does motivate people to move.

I come from an ex-communist Eastern European country – I know first hand how damaging the fact that people’s wealth was “hard capped” turned out to be.

In my country everyone’s success meant more or less the same – you could not own more than one house, one car, you had money but couldn’t buy more or significantly different items.

It was a case of “if everyone is rich nobody is” – and that was the main reason nobody really tried for anything. Everybody worked but everything about the way things moved was kitten – because no matter how hard ( or little) you worked at the end of the day you couldn’t really get more or better stuff in order to significantly improve your life or that of your family.

So you know what people did? They decided to put in just enough effort to not get fired or in trouble with the authorities, their employers and the state and then basically called it a day.

My country has been recovering from this prevalent situation that was the social norm for nearly 50 years – and it is still encountered today is many state-owned or public office jobs.

Before you come to these forums imparting knowledge – make sure you actually know what you are talking about.

I know what I’m talking about.

I have lived in a (very well established), capitalist country all my life.

As did my parents and the many, many, generations before them.

Some of those generations were fortunate and did very well for themselves.

I’m, obviously, mainly referring to the study mentioned in the OP, as that is the topic of the thread; but, there have been many similar studies, including one mentioned in New Scientist, a few years ago, that found that “Trickle Down” economics doesn’t work.

In fact, good, stable economies are built on Trickle Up.

As poorer and lower middle incomed people have to spend a far larger proportion of their money, leading to it feeding back into the economy and strengthening it.

I would suggest you do some Googling – there’s a lot out there.

I realise you’re still in the honeymoon period with unfettered capitalism.

But, please forgive some of us for being a little more jaded and knowing, as the people in the (far) longer term relationship with it.

Harper.4173:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Tigaseye.2047:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

With peak performance only being about 10% difference between exotic and ascended, most players are already mechanically “best off”.

It is probably worth noting, here, that “real” raiders, in WoW, most of whom min/max obsessively, would laugh at the idea of 10% being considered very little difference.

I’m not really sure why people have decided 10% doesn’t matter, here?

In one way it’s good, I suppose, as it should be about talent, not gear…

…but, quite frankly, it also reeks heavily of people being falsely and continuously reassured, in an attempt to keep the maximum number of players happy.

Or not so unhappy.

I never said it was “very little difference”. I don’t care what “real” raiders in WoW think, since what a “real” raider is defined as is an arbitrary set that exists solely to justify your claims. This isn’t WoW. I never said 10% didn’t matter, either. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Personally I think of Runescape as a frame of reference. In Runescape, every successive tier of equipment is 10%-20% stronger than the last, and an order of magnitude more expensive. First you spend a few thousand, then you spend a few million, then you spend tens of millions, then you spend hundreds of millions. It gets out of hand quite quickly, and a lower tier has little to no chance against anything not immediately in succession. It would be like if after ascended were legendary (10% over ascended), and then after legendary there was epic (10% over legendary), and epic cost 30k gold per piece.

GW2 is not as bad. Yes, the difference between exotic and ascended is nearly an order of magnitude in cost, but a good portion of it is superfluous. The trinkets are bought with a daily reward currency distributed equally among all players, or with other currencies earned independent of gold. The armor contributes the most minuscule of differences, of so the only thing you need to "buy’ are the weapons. And the weapons themselves are a 6% difference.

The reason why 10% is on the threshold of “not too bad” is because it is within the margins of the random number generator. Weapon attack strength varies by a total of 10% per skill use, so even with an ascended weapon there is no guarantee that in any particular fight your opponent won’t luck out and either do high damage, or you do low damage. It is only after a long series of trials that the obvious pattern emerges. Likewise, this is only true for direct damage. The total advantage granted by ascended for condition damage is much smaller (weapon attack strength doesn’t matter, so around 5%). There is a large overlap in performance between these two sets, so much that there is kitten chance that exotic will be in the performance range of ascended.

Another thing to note is that GW2’s mechanics are heavily skill-based – meaning you can make up for the 10% less powerful gear through skill in most situations.

Improving your rotations, dodges, timing, positioning can vastly improve your overall performance – far more than your gear can.

If this was a more static game – I would agree 10% could be bigger – but in this case we have to look at the context. There is plenty of room to improve as a player before you can really say that it was the 10% lower stats on your gear that made you fail.

DnT proved to us how even the hardest content – Raids – can be easily cleared with time to spare if you know what you are doing. I’m sure they could have cleared it in exotic gear as well.

The only thing left is for people to step up their game.

WoW is skill-based, too.

A good rotation is vital.

But, 10% is 10%.

If you have already maximised your potential DPS (or HPS, or whatever), as far as possible in terms of how you play, that extra 10% from gear matters.

Whichever game you’re talking about.

..and if you haven’t maximised it yet, in terms of how you play, that 10% could make all the difference.

Tigaseye.2047:

I’m, obviously, mainly referring to the study mentioned in the OP, as that is the topic of the thread; but, there have been many similar studies, including one mentioned in New Scientist, a few years ago, that found that “Trickle Down” economics doesn’t work.

In fact, good, stable economies are built on Trickle Up.

As poorer and lower middle incomed people have to spend a far larger proportion of their money, leading to it feeding back into the economy and strengthening it.

If you’re going to declare that something doesn’t work, it helps to properly define it.

Trickle Down is the proven theory that if the tax rate on the wealthy is too high, cutting the rate will result in an increase in investment and spending which results in an overall economic boost for the bottom.

It is not a cure all to economic woes and it only works when the environment is right (as in, the taxes are currently so high that investment and spending is pulled back).

It is also not a mutually exclusive theory with the so-called “Trickle Up” concept.

People who hate capitalism fall into one of two groups:
1. People who don’t understand economics, see something they don’t like being done by some individuals, and blame the entire system.
2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

^ I’m not getting into all this with you, here (or anywhere, ATM).

I’ve had too many discussions about all this, already, elsewhere and this is, after all, a topic about in-game economy on a games forum.

I’d be interested to see who, here, has actually said they “hate” capitalism?

Seems to me, that no one has said that and that all the name-calling, of that nature, has come entirely from the other side.

Also, to accuse anyone, who can see the flaws in unfettered capitalism, of being ignorant, or a terrorist, is incredibly offensive.

But, I assume that was intended.

Also guys, please try to remember that you are not your economic system.

We are all human beings, first and foremost.

Economic systems are supposed to work for us; not the other way around.

mtpelion.4562:

Tigaseye.2047:

I’m, obviously, mainly referring to the study mentioned in the OP, as that is the topic of the thread; but, there have been many similar studies, including one mentioned in New Scientist, a few years ago, that found that “Trickle Down” economics doesn’t work.

In fact, good, stable economies are built on Trickle Up.

As poorer and lower middle incomed people have to spend a far larger proportion of their money, leading to it feeding back into the economy and strengthening it.

If you’re going to declare that something doesn’t work, it helps to properly define it.

Trickle Down is the proven theory that if the tax rate on the wealthy is too high, cutting the rate will result in an increase in investment and spending which results in an overall economic boost for the bottom.

It is not a cure all to economic woes and it only works when the environment is right (as in, the taxes are currently so high that investment and spending is pulled back).

It is also not a mutually exclusive theory with the so-called “Trickle Up” concept.

People who hate capitalism fall into one of two groups:
1. People who don’t understand economics, see something they don’t like being done by some individuals, and blame the entire system.
2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

What? How the? Where does something like this even…..?

Pure capitalism is just as bad as pure socialism. They both fail due to greed of individuals/group of individuals. Trickle down econ doesn’t work b/c those at the top actually don’t trickle increased resources down without it providing an increased trickle back up. Socialism fails mostly due to those in power abusing the system for personal gain…ie see russia.

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

Essence Snow.3194:

mtpelion.4562:

Tigaseye.2047:

I’m, obviously, mainly referring to the study mentioned in the OP, as that is the topic of the thread; but, there have been many similar studies, including one mentioned in New Scientist, a few years ago, that found that “Trickle Down” economics doesn’t work.

In fact, good, stable economies are built on Trickle Up.

As poorer and lower middle incomed people have to spend a far larger proportion of their money, leading to it feeding back into the economy and strengthening it.

If you’re going to declare that something doesn’t work, it helps to properly define it.

Trickle Down is the proven theory that if the tax rate on the wealthy is too high, cutting the rate will result in an increase in investment and spending which results in an overall economic boost for the bottom.

It is not a cure all to economic woes and it only works when the environment is right (as in, the taxes are currently so high that investment and spending is pulled back).

It is also not a mutually exclusive theory with the so-called “Trickle Up” concept.

People who hate capitalism fall into one of two groups:
1. People who don’t understand economics, see something they don’t like being done by some individuals, and blame the entire system.
2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

What? How the? Where does something like this even…..?

Pure capitalism is just as bad as pure socialism. They both fail due to greed of individuals/group of individuals. Trickle down econ doesn’t work b/c those at the top actually don’t trickle increased resources down without it providing an increased trickle back up. Socialism fails mostly due to those in power abusing the system for personal gain…ie see russia.

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

If you’re going to improperly define things, we can’t have a legitimate conversation about why you are wrong.

Essence Snow.3194:

Socialism fails mostly due to those in power abusing the system for personal gain…ie see russia.

Technically, they called that communism (even though it, really, wasn’t).

Socialism is something different again – they’re not interchangeable terms.

But, in general, I agree with you.

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

mtpelion.4562:

Tigaseye.2047:

I’m, obviously, mainly referring to the study mentioned in the OP, as that is the topic of the thread; but, there have been many similar studies, including one mentioned in New Scientist, a few years ago, that found that “Trickle Down” economics doesn’t work.

In fact, good, stable economies are built on Trickle Up.

As poorer and lower middle incomed people have to spend a far larger proportion of their money, leading to it feeding back into the economy and strengthening it.

If you’re going to declare that something doesn’t work, it helps to properly define it.

Trickle Down is the proven theory that if the tax rate on the wealthy is too high, cutting the rate will result in an increase in investment and spending which results in an overall economic boost for the bottom.

It is not a cure all to economic woes and it only works when the environment is right (as in, the taxes are currently so high that investment and spending is pulled back).

It is also not a mutually exclusive theory with the so-called “Trickle Up” concept.

People who hate capitalism fall into one of two groups:
1. People who don’t understand economics, see something they don’t like being done by some individuals, and blame the entire system.
2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

What? How the? Where does something like this even…..?

Pure capitalism is just as bad as pure socialism. They both fail due to greed of individuals/group of individuals. Trickle down econ doesn’t work b/c those at the top actually don’t trickle increased resources down without it providing an increased trickle back up. Socialism fails mostly due to those in power abusing the system for personal gain…ie see russia.

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

If you’re going to improperly define things, we can’t have a legitimate conversation about why you are wrong.

What did I define? You can’t just say I defined something.

Tigaseye.2047:

^ I’m not getting into all this with you, here (or anywhere, ATM).

I’ve had too many discussions about all this, already, elsewhere and this is, after all, a topic about in-game economy on a games forum.

I’d be interested to see who, here, has actually said they “hate” capitalism?

Seems to me, that no one has said that and that all the name-calling, of that nature, has come entirely from the other side.

Also, to accuse anyone, who can see the flaws in unfettered capitalism, of being ignorant, or a terrorist, is incredibly offensive.

But, I assume that was intended.

Also guys, please try to remember that you are not your economic system.

We are all human beings, first and foremost.

Economic systems are supposed to work for us; not the other way around.

nobody called anybody a terrorist, you were the first one to use that term

Wanze.8410:

Tigaseye.2047:

^ I’m not getting into all this with you, here (or anywhere, ATM).

I’ve had too many discussions about all this, already, elsewhere and this is, after all, a topic about in-game economy on a games forum.

I’d be interested to see who, here, has actually said they “hate” capitalism?

Seems to me, that no one has said that and that all the name-calling, of that nature, has come entirely from the other side.

Also, to accuse anyone, who can see the flaws in unfettered capitalism, of being ignorant, or a terrorist, is incredibly offensive.

But, I assume that was intended.

Also guys, please try to remember that you are not your economic system.

We are all human beings, first and foremost.

Economic systems are supposed to work for us; not the other way around.

nobody called anybody a terrorist, you were the first one to use that term

Well to be fair there was this tid bit:

People who hate capitalism fall into one of two groups:
1. People who don’t understand economics, see something they don’t like being done by some individuals, and blame the entire system.
2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

Basically saying someone may either not understand economics OR be some genocidal maniac if they do……well you can see how that might translate into calling someone a terrorist

tl;dr genocidal maniac=terrorist

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Tigaseye.2047:

^ I’m not getting into all this with you, here (or anywhere, ATM).

I’ve had too many discussions about all this, already, elsewhere and this is, after all, a topic about in-game economy on a games forum.

I’d be interested to see who, here, has actually said they “hate” capitalism?

Seems to me, that no one has said that and that all the name-calling, of that nature, has come entirely from the other side.

Also, to accuse anyone, who can see the flaws in unfettered capitalism, of being ignorant, or a terrorist, is incredibly offensive.

But, I assume that was intended.

Also guys, please try to remember that you are not your economic system.

We are all human beings, first and foremost.

Economic systems are supposed to work for us; not the other way around.

nobody called anybody a terrorist, you were the first one to use that term

Well to be fair there was this tid bit:

People who hate capitalism fall into one of two groups:
1. People who don’t understand economics, see something they don’t like being done by some individuals, and blame the entire system.
2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

Basically saying someone may either not understand economics OR be some genocidal maniac if they do……well you can see how that might translate into calling someone a terrorist

tl;dr genocidal maniac=terrorist

So he put the label on it, thats what i said.

Essence Snow.3194:

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

… Based more on a free market capitalist system than anything else. The dogma in this thread as a whole is astounding.

“I came from an ex-communist country man, let me tell you: It sucked. Capitialism is the better system.”

“I’m from a capitalist country and the old system that you suffered under was better because I am right and you are wrong! I clearly know what I am talking about!”

Gotta love that kind of response. It’s that kind of crap you can’t make up.

“Oh? Someone who’s experienced the reality of my misguided ideals and is speaking out against it? Better dismiss them and assure everyone I’m right.”

“After all, that dictator guy was just doing it wrong.”

CETheLucid.3964:

Essence Snow.3194:

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

… Based more on a free market capitalist system than anything else. The dogma in this thread as a whole is astounding.

“I came from an ex-communist country man, let me tell you: It sucked. Capitialism is the better system.”

“I’m from a capitalist country and the old system that you suffered under was better because I am right and you are wrong! I clearly know what I am talking about!”

Gotta love that kind of response. It’s that kind of crap you can’t make up.

“Oh? Someone who’s experienced the reality of my misguided ideals and is speaking out against it? Better dismiss them and assure everyone I’m right.”

“After all, that dictator guy was just doing it wrong.”

I hear it’s been called the ideal dilemma before. Essentially, they are comparing practical capitalism to ideal socialism. The unfair advantage being that they completely ignore the negative aspects of human nature when dealing with socialism, but focus heavily on it in capitalism. If you want to talk ideals, then you might as well trumpet anarchy. They take shelter into the fact that real socialism hasn’t been done yet. How do you know it wasn’t real? Well, it didn’t work of course!

Dear sir or maddam,
I just want to inform you that you are reading (quoting actually) a part of arcticle that is talking about stealing happiness (a.k.a Relative happiness, as well as few other names). That’s a thing, by the way.

If you want to go overly philosophical about this: Mass, fame, wealth and many other things tend to accumulate around it self (as in mass attracts other mass, famous get more chances to acquire more fame, rich get more opportunities to get more money).

I guess the 2 things I’m trying to say here is:

1. Regardless how much money you give to the poor they will remain poor. Same as regardless of how many features or free money anet releases people who were unhappy before will remain unhappy. People that are already happy will stay happy.

2. The phenomenon of stealing happiness cannot be nullified it can only be countered. Happiness is relative to other people’s happiness and only way for “many” to be happier is for “more” to be sadder.

Both are proven phenomenon and both put together imply that making majority happy is physically impossible.

Wanze.8410:

Can you maybe write down those profit control suggestions you are talking about in a standalone post without replies to other posts? Because the only suggestion i can think of that you made here is taxing players that pick up more gold than a certain daily threshold from the tp. And that wouldnt be profit control, that would just be limiting trading volume in general, nothing more.
It would also have a kinds of side effects for the general price equilibrium and volatility.
Maybe i missed some other suggestions that you made because i only skim your posts for replies you made to my personal points.

I have a profit control suggestion. Here it is:

“More people should learn to barter.”

Many of the in-game merchants seem to agree since they offer this suggestion whenever someone speaks to them. The “problem” of flippers can be easily solved by more flippers, right? Given enough flippers, at some point there are essentially no more profit margins. This is already the case for many goods like ectos. With enough flippers, all of these “evil” profits get spread out among all the players instead of accumulating into the bank of a select few. Players like Ohoni who object to all of this TP profiteering should start flipping themselves for the greater good. A good start is to make all purchases via buy orders and all sales via sell orders. Don’t curse the darkness. Light a candle and make Tyria a better world for all.

mtpelion.4562:

Tigaseye.2047:

I’m, obviously, mainly referring to the study mentioned in the OP, as that is the topic of the thread; but, there have been many similar studies, including one mentioned in New Scientist, a few years ago, that found that “Trickle Down” economics doesn’t work.

In fact, good, stable economies are built on Trickle Up.

As poorer and lower middle incomed people have to spend a far larger proportion of their money, leading to it feeding back into the economy and strengthening it.

If you’re going to declare that something doesn’t work, it helps to properly define it.

Trickle Down is the proven theory that if the tax rate on the wealthy is too high, cutting the rate will result in an increase in investment and spending which results in an overall economic boost for the bottom.

It is not a cure all to economic woes and it only works when the environment is right (as in, the taxes are currently so high that investment and spending is pulled back).

It is also not a mutually exclusive theory with the so-called “Trickle Up” concept.

People who hate capitalism fall into one of two groups:
1. People who don’t understand economics, see something they don’t like being done by some individuals, and blame the entire system.
2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

So basically you are using dangerous rhetoric to scare people of dangerous rhetoric? Then stating Capitalism is the best and anyone who disagrees just doesn’t understand? Let me just sit here a moment and laugh at how juvenile an argument that is.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

The “problem” of flippers can be easily solved by more flippers, right?

Players shouldn’t be subjugated to be 2nd or 3rd class Tyrian’s simply because they do not like trading. Long ago, Flipping should have been treated like any other form of farming in game. Now, I don’t mind farming at all. I just don’t like that all but this one form of farming has been removed.

DeWolfe.2174:

Flipping should have been treated like any other form of farming in game. Now, I don’t mind farming at all. I just don’t like that all but this one form of farming has been removed.

This seems like hyperbole rather than truth. Name one farm that was removed where players were not being rude and belligerent to other players in chat, and where there was no outright exploit. If you cannot, and I don’t believe you can, then there are other, obvious reasons for farm removal. Tbh, in-game farmers are their own worst enemies.

Tigaseye.2047:

WoW is skill-based, too.
A good rotation is vital.
But, 10% is 10%.
If you have already maximised your potential DPS (or HPS, or whatever), as far as possible in terms of how you play, that extra 10% from gear matters.
Whichever game you’re talking about.
..and if you haven’t maximised it yet, in terms of how you play, that 10% could make all the difference.

Yes but in this game you can compensate far more with skill than you can in other games – at least that’s how I feel about it.

Regarding capitalism – I understand your point of view – and do agree that a strong middle class is necessary for things to work.
The problem I’ve tried to explain to you is there. You might not see it or might not understand it but it’s there. People need to see others succeed, do better in order to get motivated.

Uniformity doesn’t make man progress. When everyone is satisfied progress is halted. Why? Because we’re all biological organisms – when our needs are met and we have no other needs to be fulfilled we slack, and when we slack we don’t progress.

You are promoting a system that has been proven not to work – not because it couldn’t work on paper but because it is incompatible with human behavior and the way biological organisms work in the long term.

Ultimately I’m not saying capitalism is perfect – but it is the system that has worked best with how human beings work and it is the optimal system for putting human beings to work effectively and keeping them working.

It’s also worth noting that it’s the only system that can do this without relying on the human’s own wishes or forcing them with various coercive measures or types of punishment.

Also guys, please try to remember that you are not your economic system.
We are all human beings, first and foremost.
Economic systems are supposed to work for us; not the other way around.

That’s wrong – at least how I see it. Yes you are not your economic system.
What we are is humans – that however does matter only in certain ways. The fact that we are all human does not make us all equal.

Economic systems are supposed to keep humans working, progressing and moving forward. Nothing is supposed to work “for you” – you work for yourself and ultimately your species.
Economic systems are supposed to keep people working, giving them a chance to succeed and keep them constantly engaged in order that we as a whole move forward.

CETheLucid.3964:

Essence Snow.3194:

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

… Based more on a free market capitalist system than anything else. The dogma in this thread as a whole is astounding.

“I came from an ex-communist country man, let me tell you: It sucked. Capitialism is the better system.”

“I’m from a capitalist country and the old system that you suffered under was better because I am right and you are wrong! I clearly know what I am talking about!”

Gotta love that kind of response. It’s that kind of crap you can’t make up.

“Oh? Someone who’s experienced the reality of my misguided ideals and is speaking out against it? Better dismiss them and assure everyone I’m right.”

“After all, that dictator guy was just doing it wrong.”

If you actually knew what you’re talking about you might see that my argument was not unfounded. Give Eastern Europe a visit and then we’ll talk about the remnants of communism and what that system did to a lot of countries.

What you call “dogma” is something we’ve seen, there are real palpable consequences that you can see for yourself.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

CETheLucid.3964:

Essence Snow.3194:

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

… Based more on a free market capitalist system than anything else. The dogma in this thread as a whole is astounding.

“I came from an ex-communist country man, let me tell you: It sucked. Capitialism is the better system.”

“I’m from a capitalist country and the old system that you suffered under was better because I am right and you are wrong! I clearly know what I am talking about!”

Gotta love that kind of response. It’s that kind of crap you can’t make up.

“Oh? Someone who’s experienced the reality of my misguided ideals and is speaking out against it? Better dismiss them and assure everyone I’m right.”

“After all, that dictator guy was just doing it wrong.”

I hear it’s been called the ideal dilemma before. Essentially, they are comparing practical capitalism to ideal socialism. The unfair advantage being that they completely ignore the negative aspects of human nature when dealing with socialism, but focus heavily on it in capitalism. If you want to talk ideals, then you might as well trumpet anarchy. They take shelter into the fact that real socialism hasn’t been done yet. How do you know it wasn’t real? Well, it didn’t work of course!

This is pretty much true.
Socialist systems and communist systems don’t work because human beings don’t work like that. Our evolutionary traits and our biological makeup don’t work well in that sort of system.

If you want to simplify it think of humans as hardware – our hardware isn’t compatible with that type of “software”( think of social constructs as software) in the long run.

Humans are designed to reproduce and will almost always put themselves and those closest to them above other people they’re not familiar with – even if they’re part of the same society and culture. It’s how we function – it’s how we were built to work and that won’t change until we as a species change from a biological perspective.
That might take a really long time.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

CETheLucid.3964:

Essence Snow.3194:

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

… Based more on a free market capitalist system than anything else. The dogma in this thread as a whole is astounding.

“I came from an ex-communist country man, let me tell you: It sucked. Capitialism is the better system.”

“I’m from a capitalist country and the old system that you suffered under was better because I am right and you are wrong! I clearly know what I am talking about!”

Gotta love that kind of response. It’s that kind of crap you can’t make up.

“Oh? Someone who’s experienced the reality of my misguided ideals and is speaking out against it? Better dismiss them and assure everyone I’m right.”

“After all, that dictator guy was just doing it wrong.”

I hear it’s been called the ideal dilemma before. Essentially, they are comparing practical capitalism to ideal socialism. The unfair advantage being that they completely ignore the negative aspects of human nature when dealing with socialism, but focus heavily on it in capitalism. If you want to talk ideals, then you might as well trumpet anarchy. They take shelter into the fact that real socialism hasn’t been done yet. How do you know it wasn’t real? Well, it didn’t work of course!

This.

Also I find it disgusting how certain individuals think their theories can stand up to real-life experience.

It takes are very special kind of arrogance to go around telling others they are wrong about their life experiences based on 3rd grade theories of “I know better”.

This comes from someone whos family got persecuted and who’s Uncle got shot at an eastern european border trying to flee an oh so great communist system. I’d never dare tell any one who had lived through that timeperiod “they are wrong” or they just “didn’t understand”.

But that is one of the great things of open societies with free speach. Everyone gets to have an opinion, no matter how kittened.

IndigoSundown.5419:

DeWolfe.2174:

Flipping should have been treated like any other form of farming in game. Now, I don’t mind farming at all. I just don’t like that all but this one form of farming has been removed.

This seems like hyperbole rather than truth. Name one farm that was removed where players were not being rude and belligerent to other players in chat, and where there was no outright exploit. If you cannot, and I don’t believe you can, then there are other, obvious reasons for farm removal. Tbh, in-game farmers are their own worst enemies.

Dungeons.

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

DeWolfe.2174:

Flipping should have been treated like any other form of farming in game. Now, I don’t mind farming at all. I just don’t like that all but this one form of farming has been removed.

This seems like hyperbole rather than truth. Name one farm that was removed where players were not being rude and belligerent to other players in chat, and where there was no outright exploit. If you cannot, and I don’t believe you can, then there are other, obvious reasons for farm removal. Tbh, in-game farmers are their own worst enemies.

Dungeons.

Yeah, dungeons had no exploits. riiiiight.

Harper.4173:

CETheLucid.3964:

Essence Snow.3194:

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

… Based more on a free market capitalist system than anything else. The dogma in this thread as a whole is astounding.

“I came from an ex-communist country man, let me tell you: It sucked. Capitialism is the better system.”

“I’m from a capitalist country and the old system that you suffered under was better because I am right and you are wrong! I clearly know what I am talking about!”

Gotta love that kind of response. It’s that kind of crap you can’t make up.

“Oh? Someone who’s experienced the reality of my misguided ideals and is speaking out against it? Better dismiss them and assure everyone I’m right.”

“After all, that dictator guy was just doing it wrong.”

If you actually knew what you’re talking about you might see that my argument was not unfounded. Give Eastern Europe a visit and then we’ll talk about the remnants of communism and what that system did to a lot of countries.

What you call “dogma” is something we’ve seen, there are real palpable consequences that you can see for yourself.

Wanze.8410:

Tigaseye.2047:

^ I’m not getting into all this with you, here (or anywhere, ATM).

I’ve had too many discussions about all this, already, elsewhere and this is, after all, a topic about in-game economy on a games forum.

I’d be interested to see who, here, has actually said they “hate” capitalism?

Seems to me, that no one has said that and that all the name-calling, of that nature, has come entirely from the other side.

Also, to accuse anyone, who can see the flaws in unfettered capitalism, of being ignorant, or a terrorist, is incredibly offensive.

But, I assume that was intended.

Also guys, please try to remember that you are not your economic system.

We are all human beings, first and foremost.

Economic systems are supposed to work for us; not the other way around.

nobody called anybody a terrorist, you were the first one to use that term

You’re right, he didn’t say terrorist, he said potential “dictator” and/or someone who wants to conduct “mass genocide”, which is also an incredibly ignorant, offensive and utterly inaccurate thing to say.

As you well know.

In fact, it’s even worse than accusing someone of being a terrorist.

If you’re going to correct someone, at least be gracious enough to add an admission that the thing they got slightly wrong, was less bad than the thing that was actually said…

mtpelion.4562:

2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

Quite honestly, I was so utterly shocked and appalled by reading this, here, that I used the wrong word.

This is a games forum.

Hateful, prejudiced posts like this have no place here (or anywhere).

Cyninja.2954:

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

DeWolfe.2174:

Flipping should have been treated like any other form of farming in game. Now, I don’t mind farming at all. I just don’t like that all but this one form of farming has been removed.

This seems like hyperbole rather than truth. Name one farm that was removed where players were not being rude and belligerent to other players in chat, and where there was no outright exploit. If you cannot, and I don’t believe you can, then there are other, obvious reasons for farm removal. Tbh, in-game farmers are their own worst enemies.

Dungeons.

Yeah, dungeons had no exploits. riiiiight.

Plenty, and plenty of other issues, like exclusion, kicking to sell/give spots to others, trolling in the form of joining parties without the requirements just to mess with people. You name it, dungeons had it.

I ‘m not sure what non-mixed capitalistic economy y’all are referring to. Could someone please enlighten me?

CETheLucid.3964:

Essence Snow.3194:

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

… Based more on a free market capitalist system than anything else. The dogma in this thread as a whole is astounding.

“I came from an ex-communist country man, let me tell you: It sucked. Capitialism is the better system.”

“I’m from a capitalist country and the old system that you suffered under was better because I am right and you are wrong! I clearly know what I am talking about!”

Gotta love that kind of response. It’s that kind of crap you can’t make up.

“Oh? Someone who’s experienced the reality of my misguided ideals and is speaking out against it? Better dismiss them and assure everyone I’m right.”

“After all, that dictator guy was just doing it wrong.”

I know you’re not replying directly to me, but just for the record, I did not say that.

Or even imply it.

Firstly, socialism and communism are not the same thing, at all.

I live in Western Europe and many countries here have socialist parties in power, on and off, but they are still, essentially, capitalist countries.

Just “capitalism lite”, if you like.

Where the needs of the lower and middle-incomed are placed higher, compared with a totally (or unfettered) capitalist country, which might place their needs last, or not at all.

These people would cringe to see that people, many of whom claim to understand economics (no less!) just shamelessly lump both systems together.

I realise some of you guys seem to use the terms interchangeably (I’ve seen it on US TV, like Fox News, a lot), but it is utterly incorrect.

I’m not, necessarily, blaming you – your media is failing you.

Or, even worse, possibly trying to indoctrinate you, who knows?

But, either way, it is incorrect and that matters.

Secondly, what took place in Eastern block countries and places like China wasn’t really communism.

They may have called it that, but I could call a fish a “tree”, if I wanted to; it wouldn’t make it true.

So, anyone saying that what he experienced under “communism” was better, would have to like the (incorrect) interpretation of “communism” that took place, for some unknown reason.

That hypothetical person, most definitely, isn’t me, BTW.

Just for the record.

…and I never said it was (and neither did anyone else, as far as I’m aware).

This entire thread is riddled with a mish-mash of ignorance, insults and assumptions.

It’s embarrassing to witness and even worse, gives people with existing prejudices, about the political and economic ignorance of people, from certain capitalist countries, even more ammunition.

As if they needed it…

Please guys, I beg you, do some proper research before commenting further.

Tigaseye.2047:

Where the needs of the lower and middle-incomed are placed higher, compared with a totally (or unfettered) capitalist country, which might place their needs last, or not at all.

I am not aware of any nation that practices unfettered capitalism.

This thread has gone wildly off track, you all need to pull back and get back on topic, or let this thread die.

Tigaseye.2047:

snip

I wasn’t comparing the two games, I was comparing the two mechanics.
In one game you were pretty much dependend on other players – in this game you aren’t.
You guys make it appear though as if you were helplessly at mercy of those evil TP flippers with their endless knowledge. You aren’t.
You can obtain anything in this game without other players (except dungeon tokens, fractal relics, stuff from raids and some group events are hard to solo).
Everybody in this game has got the exact same chance to get anything. If you’re demotivated by that then I don’t know what motivates you.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Wanze.8410:

Can you maybe write down those profit control suggestions you are talking about in a standalone post without replies to other posts? Because the only suggestion i can think of that you made here is taxing players that pick up more gold than a certain daily threshold from the tp. And that wouldnt be profit control, that would just be limiting trading volume in general, nothing more.
It would also have a kinds of side effects for the general price equilibrium and volatility.
Maybe i missed some other suggestions that you made because i only skim your posts for replies you made to my personal points.

I have a profit control suggestion. Here it is:

“More people should learn to barter.”

Many of the in-game merchants seem to agree since they offer this suggestion whenever someone speaks to them. The “problem” of flippers can be easily solved by more flippers, right? Given enough flippers, at some point there are essentially no more profit margins. This is already the case for many goods like ectos. With enough flippers, all of these “evil” profits get spread out among all the players instead of accumulating into the bank of a select few. Players like Ohoni who object to all of this TP profiteering should start flipping themselves for the greater good. A good start is to make all purchases via buy orders and all sales via sell orders. Don’t curse the darkness. Light a candle and make Tyria a better world for all.

Exactly. Profit on the tp comes 100% from other players, not Anet, that why its futile to ask Anet to balance or limit profits on the tp. As long players are willing to pay a premium for instant gratification, i will make profits. As Anet based its business model on instant gratification through micro transactions, i can be relatively sure that that mindset wont change.

Tigaseye.2047:

Wanze.8410:

Tigaseye.2047:

^ I’m not getting into all this with you, here (or anywhere, ATM).

I’ve had too many discussions about all this, already, elsewhere and this is, after all, a topic about in-game economy on a games forum.

I’d be interested to see who, here, has actually said they “hate” capitalism?

Seems to me, that no one has said that and that all the name-calling, of that nature, has come entirely from the other side.

Also, to accuse anyone, who can see the flaws in unfettered capitalism, of being ignorant, or a terrorist, is incredibly offensive.

But, I assume that was intended.

Also guys, please try to remember that you are not your economic system.

We are all human beings, first and foremost.

Economic systems are supposed to work for us; not the other way around.

nobody called anybody a terrorist, you were the first one to use that term

You’re right, he didn’t say terrorist, he said potential “dictator” and/or someone who wants to conduct “mass genocide”, which is also an incredibly ignorant, offensive and utterly inaccurate thing to say.

As you well know.

In fact, it’s even worse than accusing someone of being a terrorist.

If you’re going to correct someone, at least be gracious enough to add an admission that the thing they got slightly wrong, was less bad than the thing that was actually said…

mtpelion.4562:

2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

Quite honestly, I was so utterly shocked and appalled by reading this, here, that I used the wrong word.

This is a games forum.

Hateful, prejudiced posts like this have no place here (or anywhere).

I agree with you that the OP was out of line, thats why i reported it.
I just replied to your post because it aggrevated the issue and threw the next generalisation around.
I think terrorism these days is mostly motivated by political and religious views and not capitalistic ones.
Most terror cells have a very sophisticated and capitalistic way of raising funds these days.

Wanze.8410:

Tigaseye.2047:

Wanze.8410:

Tigaseye.2047:

^ I’m not getting into all this with you, here (or anywhere, ATM).

I’ve had too many discussions about all this, already, elsewhere and this is, after all, a topic about in-game economy on a games forum.

I’d be interested to see who, here, has actually said they “hate” capitalism?

Seems to me, that no one has said that and that all the name-calling, of that nature, has come entirely from the other side.

Also, to accuse anyone, who can see the flaws in unfettered capitalism, of being ignorant, or a terrorist, is incredibly offensive.

But, I assume that was intended.

Also guys, please try to remember that you are not your economic system.

We are all human beings, first and foremost.

Economic systems are supposed to work for us; not the other way around.

nobody called anybody a terrorist, you were the first one to use that term

You’re right, he didn’t say terrorist, he said potential “dictator” and/or someone who wants to conduct “mass genocide”, which is also an incredibly ignorant, offensive and utterly inaccurate thing to say.

As you well know.

In fact, it’s even worse than accusing someone of being a terrorist.

If you’re going to correct someone, at least be gracious enough to add an admission that the thing they got slightly wrong, was less bad than the thing that was actually said…

mtpelion.4562:

2. People who understand economics, know that capitalism is the best system we’ve ever created, but rail against it in order to draw in support from the people in group 1 so that they can engage in mass genocide or set themselves up as a dictator once the existing government is overthrown by the angry mob they’ve whipped up into a frenzy with their dangerous rhetoric.

Quite honestly, I was so utterly shocked and appalled by reading this, here, that I used the wrong word.

This is a games forum.

Hateful, prejudiced posts like this have no place here (or anywhere).

I agree with you that the OP was out of line, thats why i reported it.
I just replied to your post because it aggrevated the issue and threw the next generalisation around.
I think terrorism these days is mostly motivated by political and religious views and not capitalistic ones.
Most terror cells have a very sophisticated and capitalistic way of raising funds these days.

OK, well thank you, then, Wanze.

…and I agree, they have.

The worst system ever is one that gives same gold ratio per hour no matter what you do.

Ashen.2907:

Tigaseye.2047:

Where the needs of the lower and middle-incomed are placed higher, compared with a totally (or unfettered) capitalist country, which might place their needs last, or not at all.

I am not aware of any nation that practices unfettered capitalism.

Well no, exactly.

That’s why I said “might”.

Even the most currently right wing, capitalist countries have higher taxation (e.g. via income tax and capital gains tax) on the rich and a certain amount of help for the poor.

Even though it may be woefully inadequate.

Yes, all too often the accountants of the rich find loopholes; but the higher tax brackets still exist.

Which makes this arbitrary labelling of anyone, who believes that the game should be made more representative of real life, in that way, even more ridiculous.

As they, apparently, want games to be more right wing than pretty much any real life situation, for a very long time.

Yes, some of the people commenting in favour of the OP may be socialists, or communists, or whatever; but it is not a given that they are.

So, unless they have specifically said they are something, themselves – in which case that specific term should be both understood and adhered to respectfully – it needs to stop.

At no time should these terms be randomly hurled around as, supposedly, interchangeable insults.

Just because Fox “News” do it, doesn’t mean you guys should too…

Fox News don’t even admit they’re not a proper news channel; but, rather, just an unending series of right wing, propagandist, rants.

Even though it’s painfully obvious, to anyone outside the US, with even half a brain, that that is exactly what they are.

So, they are the last people anyone should be learning political/economic terms (let alone [n]etiquette) from.

Gynok.1756:

The worst system ever is one that gives same gold ratio per hour no matter what you do.

Why?

So people are forced to do things they don’t like, or languish forever in poverty, or leave the game?

Half the time there is no commander, in EotM/WvW, because the tag costs 300g, which just feels like an utter insult, to the average WvWer.

CETheLucid.3964:

Harper.4173:

CETheLucid.3964:

Essence Snow.3194:

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

… Based more on a free market capitalist system than anything else. The dogma in this thread as a whole is astounding.

“I came from an ex-communist country man, let me tell you: It sucked. Capitialism is the better system.”

“I’m from a capitalist country and the old system that you suffered under was better because I am right and you are wrong! I clearly know what I am talking about!”

Gotta love that kind of response. It’s that kind of crap you can’t make up.

“Oh? Someone who’s experienced the reality of my misguided ideals and is speaking out against it? Better dismiss them and assure everyone I’m right.”

“After all, that dictator guy was just doing it wrong.”

If you actually knew what you’re talking about you might see that my argument was not unfounded. Give Eastern Europe a visit and then we’ll talk about the remnants of communism and what that system did to a lot of countries.

What you call “dogma” is something we’ve seen, there are real palpable consequences that you can see for yourself.

Upon rereading I do believe you were agreeing with me. I apologize, I didn’t exactly figure it out yesterday at 3am

Tigaseye.2047:

Secondly, what took place in Eastern block countries and places like China wasn’t really communism.

They may have called it that, but I could call a fish a “tree”, if I wanted to; it wouldn’t make it true.

So, anyone saying that what he experienced under “communism” was better, would have to like the (incorrect) interpretation of “communism” that took place, for some unknown reason.

That hypothetical person, most definitely, isn’t me, BTW.

Just for the record.

…and I never said it was (and neither did anyone else, as far as I’m aware).

This entire thread is riddled with a mish-mash of ignorance, insults and assumptions.

It’s embarrassing to witness and even worse, gives people with existing prejudices, about the political and economic ignorance of people, from certain capitalist countries, even more ammunition.

As if they needed it…

Please guys, I beg you, do some proper research before commenting further.

For some unknown reason? The reason is known and easy to understand if you bother to look at it – it’s because there’s a fundamental incompatibility between how communism is supposed to work and how human beings work.

What they called “communism” is as close as you can get to having the on-paper perfect looking social system that so many seem to like translated into practice.

The truth is it simply doesn’t work – or might work in the future – but until we change fundamentally on a biological level it won’t work.

Proper research? Have you done any?

Harper.4173:

CETheLucid.3964:

Harper.4173:

CETheLucid.3964:

Essence Snow.3194:

Capitalism is not the best system we’ve ever created. The best system we’ve had in modern society is a mixture.

… Based more on a free market capitalist system than anything else. The dogma in this thread as a whole is astounding.

“I came from an ex-communist country man, let me tell you: It sucked. Capitialism is the better system.”

“I’m from a capitalist country and the old system that you suffered under was better because I am right and you are wrong! I clearly know what I am talking about!”

Gotta love that kind of response. It’s that kind of crap you can’t make up.

“Oh? Someone who’s experienced the reality of my misguided ideals and is speaking out against it? Better dismiss them and assure everyone I’m right.”

“After all, that dictator guy was just doing it wrong.”

If you actually knew what you’re talking about you might see that my argument was not unfounded. Give Eastern Europe a visit and then we’ll talk about the remnants of communism and what that system did to a lot of countries.

What you call “dogma” is something we’ve seen, there are real palpable consequences that you can see for yourself.

Upon rereading I do believe you were agreeing with me. I apologize, I didn’t exactly figure it out yesterday at 3am

I was using your point as an example to what I was speaking to.

I agree with you and I can see where you’re coming from. I did make it all very general and I didn’t quote you directly, so the misunderstanding is on me.

I tend to think I’m easy to follow and that is not always the case.

Honestly I don’t see myself dedicating to the conversation. It’s a dead end, frankly. People that want to come to the truth of it will explore the arguments of their own accord.

Those who prefer to remain ignorant will continue in their ignorance regardless of anything put forth by me or you, or anyone else here.

A lot of the posters here are more interested in arguing than they are in actually considering what is being said.

But, MMO forums. Video game economies and why instant gratification isn’t always possible… it’s a given.

Pretty tough to tie deeper concepts to that when the majority of the audience is probably high school age kids.

[Thank you for the discussion and all points considered, this thread is now locked.]