Guild Wars 2

CassieGold.7460:

My guild’s experience could not be more different.

Now, we have GW2, and what do we do?
…

-We run personal story as a group, often times doing the same story step more than once so different people can choose different options at the end of a step.
…

-We run dungeons as a group.
…

-We do meta events as a group.
…

-We level alts as a group.
…

I’m waiting for GvG, it will be nice once it arrives. I’m waiting for custom arenas for some 1v1 or 2v2 guild scrims… those are fun I’m waiting for something like a successor to Urgoz / The Deep that allows for a larger group to play together in instanced content… I don’t need / want 25 man content, but 8-12 man content would be a welcome addition. I would also like to see the return of GW1 style challenge missions with leaderboards…. PvE content that you can get competitive about

Quoted because it all needs to be said again. There doesn’t need to be grind to have group content. There just needs to be a great group of people. I hope they add lots of new stuff for guilds to participate in, but in the meantime the best guilds will be playing the game. Together.

I think some people are misunderstanding the OP’s original intent of point #3. I think what the OP is trying to say is this: at endgame, what is my/our objective? What is our goal?

We’ve already heard from the solo or causal fan base, we all agree GW2 does an excellent job at this for their play style, but there is another fan base that requires this objective for their MMORPGs.

GW2 is advertised as a MMORPG. Ignoring the MMO portion and focusing on the RPG aspect, this typically involves progressing your character in many ways. Typically this means getting better gear to progress to experience new content and challenges. And to do this generally requires coordination, challenges and effort by a group of people. And this isn’t exactly implemented in GW2 at this time.

Players can get the top tier gear fairly quickly in GW2. But after that, what is one trying to accomplish? You can get world completion or try to complete some achievements but as I mentioned above, this doesn’t progress your character.

The fact is, once you hit lvl 80, everything is optional. There is nothing that gives a sense that I must work towards something or group with like minded players to overcome a challenge to receive a reward (except for Legendaries).

Taking a typical example from other RPGs that introduce an objective and goal, dungeons are typically designed to increase in difficulty, provide more complex situations and bosses with greater rewards that progress your character.

As we know, GW2, dungeons do not matter. You can run any of them for tokens and get the gear you need. Thus, no objective or goal to run dungeons (Fractals exempted).

In other RPGs, dungeons require groups to coordinate, require specific gear, knowledge and working as a team to bring necessary resources to get past a challenge. Once they overcome it, they are typically rewarded so they can move on to the next challenge.

This doesn’t exist and this is what the OPs #3 point means. And there is a large playerbase who would LOVE to see this implemented. Otherwise, we are neglected and will move on to a game that does provide this rewarding experience.

Now, Fractals does have this idea of getting gear for a specific objective – the ascension gear. What that will mean in the future we do not exactly know. But it is an indication that the game is starting to go in this direction that forces people to work on specific objectives and also, hopefully, require guilds and people to coordinate to overcome a challenging content.

honestly, hitting 80 is nothing, gearing up in exotics afterward is time consuming, you can clear maps, do dungeons etc. (unless you pay to win then complain..)

but its true, after exotics you can work on runes/sigils and then dungeon sets or cultural sets.
its easily a 300h thing for most people.

after that, allright, in pve right now its either map completion or going as high as possible in the fractals.

it needs a bit more maybe.

wOOOOt.6407:

First, a short presentation.
I’m 42 years old, from Denmark and 10 years ago I founded a Danish guild, that count around 400 members today. Most of our members play WOW, some stick with SWTOR still, and then when GW2 released, we had 150’ish members, all 18+ ready and eager to play.
Our guild is mix hardcore-casual, 18+ and we have a high loyalty among our members. They don’t leave the guild, they just quit bad mmo’s, and wait for the next. Originally we were founded in SWG, grew in WOW, and played most major mmo’s since then.

1. Its a solo game, with lots of people playing together.
The events are great, but there is no need whatsoever, to have a group or a guild. There is NO reason to play in groups with others, you don’t need other players, as long as they are there, playing solo at your side.
The game is too solo friendly, and too easy. We are missing challenges in the game, that NEED groups and even Guild’s to organize and work together.
- Yes, there are 5 man dungeons, but there is no real reason to go down there. You can easily play to lvl 80 and skip the dungeons. And if you want to go, 5 man is easy to find.

2. Where is the Guild in “Guild Wars”?
Basically, this is the main issue, that our members stopped playing before the reached lvl 80. There is a guild function, but nothing you need a guild to do ingame.
We raised 200 gold ingame for 2 WvW commanders, but WvW is just a zerg where you dont need a guild. Running in WvW as a guild with a commander, just mean that we lead the zerg around.
Raids are needed in GW2, because with 10+ man challenges, you need better coordination, and then guilds have a purpose. As GW2 is now, its just a chatroom in a solo game.
We lost many members because there was no use for them. Most played solo, so those who were looking for group, ended up unanswered, because there was no need, no benefit for groups.

3. We are missing engame challenges, raids AND the grind for better loot.
Yes yes, I/we know. GW2 is a mmo where endgame gear stats are capped for all, and easy to get to. Its all about finding better looking gear, and stand out in the crowd..
- That is just fine, if Arenanet want GW2 to loose players all the time from boredom.

My 2 cents.
w

I agree with u, we are a OLD guild like yours and I feel ur pain. This game is not guildwars 2 is more like “randomwars 2”.
Guilds are just like a facebook group. PvP is safe for kids… We think the developers got PKed a lot at DAoC and they made the ideal friendly safe game for the random, and since they hate hardcore gamers they give the power to the random, so this is a game for randoms, and randoms will complain if they change the easy mode, and u can see there is a LOT of randoms here…

I’m somewhat new to GW2, but not new to MMOs. I’ve played many of them. I’m reading the thread here and something just don’t seem to click with me. Such as:

“Why should I group? There’s no incentive.”

I would answer, why shouldn’t you? There’s no penalty.

You’re either social person or you aren’t. Either way is fine, but a social person is never going to ask why bother being social. It’s like saying “Why should I bother saying hello to someone I don’t know?”

Now I consider myself a social person, but at my age(grey haired gamer here) I also have little tolerance for certain personalities. And a personality that annoys me, may not annoy you. Heck I’m sure my personality annoys a lot of people. I don’t think games are going the route of the solo player. I think they are designing games so the annoying personalities out there have minimal impact on your experience. There’s a difference.

For example, the other night I was doing a quest, and random player invited me. I accepted. It didn’t take long before I realized this person was of that annoying personality for me. So we did the quest, I said my goodbye, and left the group. We actually kept crossing paths in the zone and helping each other out, but didn’t group or really interact and that worked out well. The next night, I came across another quest and someone invited me again, and I accepted. We got along well, had some fun chat and banter, and ended up staying grouped. My girlfriend logged on, she joined us, and we all had a lot of fun and laughs as we quested the rest of the night. Sure we could have all 3 done the content solo, but it wasn’t nearly as entertaining.

So when I hear “What’s the point of grouping? What’s the point of a guild?” I just scratch my head. We have all hung out with our friends doing absolutely nothing and having a great time. I see grouping up to do quests no different than hanging out playing cards together. I see hanging out with guildies the same has just hanging out with friends. When I was in the service, me and the guys I served with would sit around drink beer and watch classic comedies over and over and have great time! We’d have quote showdowns. We’d make up silly games and rules for the games. How do you think those friends came up with the Kevin Bacon game? How do you think beer pong was invented? I just take the same approach to video games. I don’t need a designer to give me every incentive to group. Just don’t give me any penalties for grouping and minimize the impact of griefers and selfish players and I can take it from there.

So when I hear 150 people can’t find something fun to do, it doesn’t sound like you’re tired of the game, but maybe you’re tired of each other.

Our guild was talking about a lot of this over the weekend. I belong to a wvw guild and that is just the portion of the game that appeals to most of us. It is incredibly frustrating to not be able to get all of us into a single unified group. In this day and age, it is ludicrous that this type of ability or functionality was overlooked.

Also, we are sick of facing the same people week in and week out on the same terrain. Come on, you can make fractals with tons of different maps with new mobs that possess new abilities to populate them, why is wvw the same every time? We want to be thrown some curve balls! We want to be challenged!

Only point of the OP’s that I don’t particularly agree with is that of the gear (#3). UNLESS it’s applied across the board. Currently, the trend is to basically exploit dungeons for gear so you can then wvw at max efficiency. That needs to go away, this should have been fixed in beta! The way our wvw tokens are awarded needs to be redone and the system for gathering them (stopping to loot) needs to be altered as well. Also, who the heck decided that PVT stats were the only ones that gear vendors would offer in wvw? What the heck! As if that is the only kind of gear anyone would ever use. ::boggle:: Then add the expense! Good lord! It would take a year with the current settings to gear up off wvw tokens, compared to the few days of effort it takes to get geared off dungeons. pffft

I mostly agree with everything except the comments about end-game grind. Also, the thing about GW2 is you can always come back to it in a year and play it again without having to sub. So ANet doesn’t really lose anything (except cash store sales) as long as people buy the original game and expansions.

-EDIT-

OP don’t let the fanboys get to you. You made some valid points and I think ANet knows that they have a problem with people slowly migrating away from the game. Conversely, GW2 isn’t really an MMO in a lot of ways so I see the argument that it isn’t meant to be played endlessly (as sub MMO’s are) as valid too.

I’d like to come in here and add to the non-gear treadmill support.

Tolmos is totally correct

I read in the OP’s post, ’we’re used to games like SWtoR / WoW, and didn’t like how GW2 was different.’

I understand the OP just wants to share their experience, but I feel they’re incredibly inexperienced with non-WoW ( / EQ) style MMORPG’s out there. I started out with FFXI, and you know what was endgame for us? Trying not to die, and lose our darn levels!

I do agree with the argument that GW2 is boring atm, but not for the reasons posted in the OP.

Next time I’d strongly suggest if you’re going to migrate that large amount of people, wait 3 months after the MMO has come out. See how it is, and the complaints on the forums. Research the company, and look at other games they’ve made. I feel if the OP had been a little more patient, and produced more research to their members we would never have seen this thread. : /

TheUndefined.1720:

Next time I’d strongly suggest if you’re going to migrate that large amount of people, wait 3 months after the MMO has come out. See how it is, and the complaints on the forums. Research the company, and look at other games they’ve made. I feel if the OP had been a little more patient, and produced more research to their members we would never have seen this thread. : /

That’s unrealistic.

Zonzai.2341:

TheUndefined.1720:

Next time I’d strongly suggest if you’re going to migrate that large amount of people, wait 3 months after the MMO has come out. See how it is, and the complaints on the forums. Research the company, and look at other games they’ve made. I feel if the OP had been a little more patient, and produced more research to their members we would never have seen this thread. : /

That’s unrealistic.

Not to start a tiff here, but please explain to me exactly how saving your money for a few months before investing in a hobby, researching aka googling arena net, and looking at their previous game, then making a post to your members on your guild site is unreasonable?

Swtor (the OP’s original MMO if I’m not mistaken) was still going strong during this period of time, WoW is certainly still pushing onward; so it isn’t like people were sitting on their fingers, and holding their breath. They had something to do. : /

beerock.1658:

I think some people are misunderstanding the OP’s original intent of point #3. I think what the OP is trying to say is this: at endgame, what is my/our objective? What is our goal?

We’ve already heard from the solo or causal fan base, we all agree GW2 does an excellent job at this for their play style, but there is another fan base that requires this objective for their MMORPGs.

GW2 is advertised as a MMORPG. Ignoring the MMO portion and focusing on the RPG aspect, this typically involves progressing your character in many ways. Typically this means getting better gear to progress to experience new content and challenges. And to do this generally requires coordination, challenges and effort by a group of people. And this isn’t exactly implemented in GW2 at this time.

Players can get the top tier gear fairly quickly in GW2. But after that, what is one trying to accomplish? You can get world completion or try to complete some achievements but as I mentioned above, this doesn’t progress your character.

The fact is, once you hit lvl 80, everything is optional. There is nothing that gives a sense that I must work towards something or group with like minded players to overcome a challenge to receive a reward (except for Legendaries).

Taking a typical example from other RPGs that introduce an objective and goal, dungeons are typically designed to increase in difficulty, provide more complex situations and bosses with greater rewards that progress your character.

As we know, GW2, dungeons do not matter. You can run any of them for tokens and get the gear you need. Thus, no objective or goal to run dungeons (Fractals exempted).

In other RPGs, dungeons require groups to coordinate, require specific gear, knowledge and working as a team to bring necessary resources to get past a challenge. Once they overcome it, they are typically rewarded so they can move on to the next challenge.

This doesn’t exist and this is what the OPs #3 point means. And there is a large playerbase who would LOVE to see this implemented. Otherwise, we are neglected and will move on to a game that does provide this rewarding experience.

Now, Fractals does have this idea of getting gear for a specific objective – the ascension gear. What that will mean in the future we do not exactly know. But it is an indication that the game is starting to go in this direction that forces people to work on specific objectives and also, hopefully, require guilds and people to coordinate to overcome a challenging content.

You don’t seem to understand what ROLE PLAYING GAME means. It has nothing to do with acquiring gear.

Small groups of 5 – 10 people can be extremely effective in WvW. In fact, I would argue that they are far more effective than a zerg if they are led by the right person — Keeps dont win wars … Supply Camps do.

Zeldain.5710:

Peetee.9406:

If I was forced to have a group/guild in order to progress I would quit and find another game.

The only reason Everquest succeeded with this mindset is because it was the only choice on the market, Final Fantasy XIV tried to force players to group and it died one of the quickest deaths in MMO history.

We cannot have this attitude going forward.

MMOs offer a very unique proposition in the way that they foster cooperative or competitive gameplay with progression intertwined. There is no other genre that offers it, and the core differentiator is the group content that makes it all possible.

We cannot any longer try to facilitate solo players into this content designed for groups. It’s making the overall experience for everyone anemic and any unique advantages about the genre are evaporating.

The NFL doesn’t field teams of volunteers. The Rolling Stones are not compromised of walk-on musicians. They are well practiced and consistent teams. The same must be said for MMO group content unless we want to see the genre wither away.

Bad analogy. The NFL has hardly any players. That’s what you get for being elitist. GW2 is not a professional sport. It’s junior league, school ground, friends in the park, pick-up.

It’s a game.

TheUndefined.1720:

Zonzai.2341:

TheUndefined.1720:

Next time I’d strongly suggest if you’re going to migrate that large amount of people, wait 3 months after the MMO has come out. See how it is, and the complaints on the forums. Research the company, and look at other games they’ve made. I feel if the OP had been a little more patient, and produced more research to their members we would never have seen this thread. : /

That’s unrealistic.

Not to start a tiff here, but please explain to me exactly how saving your money for a few months before investing in a hobby, researching aka googling arena net, and looking at their previous game, then making a post to your members on your guild site is unreasonable?

Swtor (the OP’s original MMO if I’m not mistaken) was still going strong during this period of time, WoW is certainly still pushing onward; so it isn’t like people were sitting on their fingers, and holding their breath. They had something to do. : /

You think you are going to convince 150 MMO players looking for a new game not to play a new MMO at release so that they won’t be disappointed by it? You can’t really be that naive. Especially when GW2 so hyped by the MMO community.

A lot of people quit GW2 because they weren’t expecting what they got, whether or not those expectations were justified. And most of them weren’t. But so what? The guy is trying to give feedback so that ANet knows why his guild quit. He’s not looking for fanboy approval or for suggestions on how to avoid disappointments in the future.

Avatar.1923:

basically, only WoW and EvE succeeded at endgame.

its not easy to design a good endgame.
what can there be ?

gw2 you grind for look.
its allright.
if i was anet i would really gamble on making the wvwvw experience as good as possible. with guild halls, guild vs guilds, duels, and some kind of icon showing how badkitten you are in wvw. sonthat when ou see a player you re like “omg he rocks”.
as it is now its; “omg he farmed a lot or paid to win”.
that mentality isnt long term.

in the end anyway, its a computer game.. maybe ita meant to be played only for a while (even if that “a while” can easily be 500h like gw2!)

EVE has no endgame. If anything EVE is the total opposite of what the OP wants. Almost anything can be soloed, there is no end game, there is no gear grind. Most importantly there is no sound bound best in slot item that you are forced to play with 20 others to get.

The game certainly doesn’t force players into corps. In fact weak corps (guilds) don’t last long in EVE because they are a liability (and a target). Good corps only last because they actually do something useful for their members, and work together well.

Zeldain.5710:

Dante.1508:

Ditch the dungeons and gear treadmills and go back to how GW1 played..loot wasn’t as necessary and the game was really fun from start to finish..

Guild Wars didn’t really have very many players, certainly not the numbers needed to support a true triple-A MMO like Guild Wars 2 and compete with WoW.

Are you kidding me, they had 5 million players during the “Factions” expansion…

http://www.guildwars.com/events/press/releases/pressrelease-2008-02-26.php

That one expansion surpassed Gw2..

Scourge.4317:

You don’t seem to understand what ROLE PLAYING GAME means. It has nothing to do with acquiring gear.

Role playing is about “living” a character in some for and fashion, where living takes on many forms. For the majority, it typically means progressing and improving upon your character consistently through clear goals and objectives with challenges along the way; current content is optional. My opinion is this simply does not exist in GW2 currently and is also what the OP is saying for himself and his guild.

I very much like the game and I’m hoping this changes for myself and many others so we can work towards like-minded challenging goals.

Dante.1508:

Zeldain.5710:

Dante.1508:

Ditch the dungeons and gear treadmills and go back to how GW1 played..loot wasn’t as necessary and the game was really fun from start to finish..

Guild Wars didn’t really have very many players, certainly not the numbers needed to support a true triple-A MMO like Guild Wars 2 and compete with WoW.

Are you kidding me, they had 5 million players during the “Factions” expansion…

http://www.guildwars.com/events/press/releases/pressrelease-2008-02-26.php

That one expansion surpassed Gw2..

Sales != players.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

I’m somewhat new to GW2, but not new to MMOs. I’ve played many of them. I’m reading the thread here and something just don’t seem to click with me. Such as:

“Why should I group? There’s no incentive.”

I would answer, why shouldn’t you? There’s no penalty.

…. snip….

Perfectly stated. You reflect pretty much my opinion.

GW2 needs only two things to please me further: champions and dungeon bosses dropping something worth the time spent killing them and a truckload of bug fixes.

I, for one, wouldn’t enjoy raiding, in fact I’m quite sick of it, given that I raided for the last 12-13 years and have seen it going from epic massive battles (EQ) to Dance-Dance-Revolution-10-people-coordinated-ballets ala WotLK/Cata-WoW.

Raids are in game already, called Dynamic Events.
Instanced Raids with gear grind, tier after tier? Give me a break, please, every other game does this already.

@ #1. I just got to 80 and started doing Orr.. unless I’m missing something that place is a nightmare if you don’t team up or at least stay with others while traversing the terrain… But with the rest of the game. Yes, I totally agree with you.

#2. Couldn’t agree more this game needs more guild… wars.

#3. Eh, I never expected this from guild wars. It wasn’t in the first and they tend to make more challenging things for people to do or more story driven things… I could do without raids in this game. I have them in the other mmo I am playing. :P Going to disagree with you there.

Response from OP here.

I am positively suprised to see the answers in here. Thank you for that! I expected more flames and trolls.

I have not read all answes (too many), but a lot of them,
and even though its a big mix of people who agree, partially agree or disagree,
almost everyone takes the topic serious, and most give really good answers and arguments. Also a lot misunderstand a few things. But generally good debate all over.

I would like to comment on a handfull of comments, just to explain myself.

- Some think our guild almost came directly from WOW, and don’t have much experience with other MMO’s.
Well, our official list of MMO’s we have played with 30-250 members are SWG, DAOC, WOW, EQ2, WAR, AION, RIFT, SWTOR and GW2.. I Might have missed one here. But fact is that our 400 members, have played many MMO’s over time.

- Some think we are a WOW guild, and don’t like change… LOL
Are you kidding me… The changes in most other MMO’s are the things we like about them. Especially GW2 with the events, jumping puzzles, combat system etc.
We do definetely not want more WOW… Why… We have WOW, and 150 members are still playing it. The rest are playing SWTOR, GW2, and hanging idle as social members, waiting for the next big mmo.

We don’t want GW2 to be like WOW.
BUT, for an MMO to be a success in the same scale as WOW is (noone can deny that) -New MMO’s must do 3 tings:
- Stay true to the concept on MMORPG’s – In other words, changes are good, but its not good to change everything, just because we can.
- Have the 3 elements of progress, rewards and challenge.
- Steal/Borrow the ideas that have worked best in other MMO’s, Improve things that work, but need improvement, and only reinvent enough to make the new MMO unique and better, without loosing the original MMO fans.
And GW2 already Borrowed from other MMO’s. Among other things WvW is almost a copy of DAOC RvR.

For all of you who disagree with the OP, let me explain this.
I don’t want to change YOUR GW2, I just want GW2 to have some of the things that I need in an MMO.
You love GW2 because of the things the game has to offer you.
But myself, my members and as you can see in the thread, tons of other MMO players are MISSING other stuff.
You see my post and think I want GW2 changed? You’re wrong. GW2 is great, but it need improvements, and some new content.

Why don’t we work together to have the GW2 that ALL of us want to have?

Read my OP again – I love lots of things in GW2 – so did my guildmembers. To many of us GW2 is the best in many aspects. To me, an old Daoc PVP addict – I just love the WvW world design.
But the WvW gameplay is only awesome for a period, then I kind of miss a little reward for 100+ hours spent in WVW. I don’t need big rewards, small boosts like +1 new skillpoint, +1% crit chance and stuff like that will do the trick.
It will give progress, reward and something to keep on competing for.

I don’t want to change GW2 away from being super casual and solo friendly.
But many of us also need the more challenging, competitive and rewarding.
I would love if GW2 added some kind of progress and rewards for the millions of us who are in to that thing.
It should not come at the expence of changing away from what GW2 is today,
but in my opinion Arenanet should develop the game, to deliver to both groups of MMO players.

If they can’t figure out how to do it, then they are welcome to give me a call.

Best regards to both sides of this discussion,

wOOOOt

I’m also from Denmark (37 years old). For me what gw2 needs to keep me interested is a deep Realm Rank advancement system, a bit like DAoC but with a wider array of rewards. When I played DAoC I also enjoyed trying to beat my realm points record and move up on the ladders.

I need something to ‘work’ for, the famous carrot-on-a-stick if you will. I have lots of ideas for such a system, but I’m sure Anet could come up with something better. Right now I get bored playing WVW, because it just seems pointless (for me) with no ‘carrot’.

The first Guild Wars was not a niche game… A game that sells 6 million copies and is able to hold its own for 7 years against WoW, coming from a fairly new developer can be considered a pretty huge success.

I have to say i disagree with the OP.

1) In every MMO, for a big part of the game, grouping should be a choice and not a prerequisite. If every single aspect of the game required a team, people would complain just as much or even more because they have a hard time getting a group and thus slows down their progression in the game. That is why there were henchmen and heroes in the first Guild Wars, so people could still play the game at their own pace.
Since grouping is a choice it depends entirely on you whether you make the effort to do so or not. If you dont want to make that effort then yes, it might feel like you are soloing the content. Grouping should be the result of players doing stuff together because they want to and not because they need to. I love doing JP with random people and helping each other out. Sure i could do them on my own and sometimes i do but it is even more fun to guide and help someone who has never done it before. If the entire game forces grouping, it will become to hardcore for casual players. This leads to elitism and is never a good thing. Just look at those activities that do require grouping in this game (dungeons). It has come to the point where I have a hard time finding a group for my daily 10 and 12 because i dont have any ascended gear yet…

2) Guilds Wars is named so because of the lore. I do understand that you would like to have some more guild related stuff to do but the game is only a couple of months old… For an MMO that’s a short time. GvG wasnt in the first game either from the beginning. Im sure things like that will be introduces in the future, If your guild is not willing to wait for that then that is your own decision, MMO are always works in progress and will never truly be finished.

Reading your post it seems like your guild isnt as tight as you think it is. Whenever someone in my guild ask to group up for something in guild chat (zone exploration, JP) there are always a ton of people that want to join. Again not because they need to but just because its more fun to do them together. Nothing is stopping your guild from doing the same. Besides there are plenty of things to do for guilds. Have you tried to form some sPvP parties and make a name for yourself there?

one can agree or disagree with op, but he certainly raises some points. GW2 needs to give valid reasons to players to gather under the same flag: unfortunately, being able to join multiple guilds is completely killing the meaning of being in a guild, because ultimately if you are part of everything, you are part of nothing.
Guilds lack individuality, joining one is the same as joining any other: this is bad, totally bad.
Each Guild should be unique for its own reasons, there are plenty of ways to do this… I hope someday a bunch will be implemented

glad for anyone taking off because “there is no progression”. so you cant overgear.. aww.. dont let the door hit you on the way out bro. have fun in a game where gear > skill then.

Completely agree with OP had same issues with our guild and the game. Exactly the same.

I agree with the OP that it would be very cool to have some challenging group content. I’ve played that way, had a lot of fun, and made some great friends. However, I have problems with the “carrot” aspect that folks ask for. I agree with the stated philosophy with GW2 that the statistically best gear should be accessible to even the casual player. When I did run challenging group content, it wasn’t as much about the gear as it was about overcoming the challenge. So, it would be nice to see a “raid progression” type of leader board. But please, no gear grind.

OP is right.
They did the game friendly for the random (casual) player, and in the process killed all what the hardcore ones want, but they know now that was a mistake… … the true is this, casual players are not the ones who keep this kind of games alive. A lot complain for empty zones, guess why is that.. duh..

All we need is time, and we will see if this is not true, a lot of players are hoping for some “course correcting” update…IMO this year will define the game.

We will see what happens in the next update, but dunno, with ther “small changes” policy I not hoping for much.

yeah yeah, flame all u want, but this is not league of legends or some f2p shooter, this particular kind of game need something more.

Grevender.9235:

one can agree or disagree with op, but he certainly raises some points. GW2 needs to give valid reasons to players to gather under the same flag: unfortunately, being able to join multiple guilds is completely killing the meaning of being in a guild, because ultimately if you are part of everything, you are part of nothing.
Guilds lack individuality, joining one is the same as joining any other: this is bad, totally bad.
Each Guild should be unique for its own reasons, there are plenty of ways to do this… I hope someday a bunch will be implemented

This is nonsense. Guilds don’t need something “implemented” to make them unique — that’s on the guild itself. If your leader and members don’t mutually create something worthwhile no amount of dev intervention is going to change it. And what is this “if you are part of everything you are part of nothing BS?” If you are part of everything you are part of everything and it’s very easy to do in this game. You can chill with your PvE buddies most of the time, PvP with your PvP guild on Wednesday night, then run dungeons with your cross-server dungeon running guild when you want. These are all valid activities. Some guilds can manage to do it all, but if not it’s not a big deal. You can still have it all without ever having to join a 500 man invisi-guild.

People come , people go. Its the same on every game in existence. But this game is only a few months old. Its still in the process of fining down who will be long term players and who will not.

If you don’t like the game, fare well in your search for the ultimate online game. Some of us will be here for years. Imagination fills in the blanks for us.

Ya know…I was looking at the map this morning before I went to work. ANet has left a lot of stuff blank. Tells me they have big plans. Maybe one of these days, I’ll go explore them.

I am around the same age as the OP, and I came into GW2 with 7 yrs of WOW
and 2 years of RIFT experience. Allow me to make the following points:

1) Yes, I did like end game raiding, but it consumed my life. I had to walk away
because I have a wife and two kids, and anyone who has experienced hardcore
raiding will attest to the negative impact on real life. This I do not miss, BUT
I did like the group effort experience.

2) A main point people are missing is this: Look at any popular game people play
like COD or LOL. The point is to sit down for a few hours, play and have fun,
than attend to real life. I think some people almost sadistically want a game
that will consume even more hours in day (and for many it becomes a full
time job).

3) The gear grind in past games I do not miss. I cant tell you how many countless
hours I spent in arena and raiding just to get “the best” gear. It seemed like as
soon as I got it, the new gear was already coming out. I enjoy the fact that GW2
is not gear focused.

4) WvW is the “end game” for me. Thats me though. I enjoy the entire feeling of
it, and it allows me to log on and play for a night and really have fun. What is
not so fun is credit card commanders who everyone follows mindlessly, mesmer
bombing which exploits culling issues and wins battles, and the lack of any true
award for winning in a weeks battle (they need to have more options for badges,
and provide some type of karma or badge bonus for actual winners).

With those point aside, I do agree about the guild comments in GW2. This is
compounded by the fact that you can be in more than one guild at once. They
are nothing more than social circles for chatting sometimes it seems.

I look back on the friends I have to this day from past games, and that relationship
was formed by raiding or grouping together. That element may exist in GW2, but
it takes much longer to establish do to the lack of unity for events.

With all of that aside, I do enjoy the game, but I also supplement it with LOL when
those friends are on. I do not think there is a “catch all” game for anyone. Some parts
you will like, others you will be indifferent to.

I agree with a lot of things you said man. BUT! I have to say I really hate gear progress which is in WoW, farming some kind of tokens to get gear and than farm another tokens to get another gear etc. I must say I like more drop based gear progression, where you go on epic bosses etc., something like Lineage 2.

Anet new GW 1 had basicaly no gear progession, it had always lvl 20 etc. It was an amazing game, one of its kind. They wanted to do more mainstream game, therefore they did GW 2. I like the world, I don’t mind to level unlike in a lot other MMOs. But as you say, its kinda solo game and no need for team. I just don’t feel this world is really living. I might be overhyped and they just made me expectancy to big and they failed to reach it.

All that being said, that I hate WoW gear progression and GW 1 had no gear progession which was just epic. I must say I feel that GW 2 is made in a kitten bad way for GW 1 fans, GW 2 seems that it NEEDS gear progression. Because honestly, I don’t know where else they could go. Maybe they have something in mind and they are really creative and I underestimate Anet a lot, but I don’t think so, we’ll see anyway.

Btw, why every new MMO is doing a traditional world usualy? Meaning mountains, plains, forrests etc. Its fantasy for gods sake so I want something epic and fantastic. Yes, I’m a fan of L2 and I’ve never played Aion or Tera but these games have amazingly looking worlds, they just look epic. I kinda feel that Anet tried to do GW 2 as basic as they could, couple cool things but not too fancy, so we would buy an expansion which brings something cool and different. After that I’ve heard they want to make GW 2 a lot by adding content every now and then, which made me think, my expansion theory is probably wrong.

And Karkas. I felt it will be something special, nice and amazing, its just a nothing island somewhere there and it gave us one dungeon, with mini dungeons and most people now go there so they made theirs world empy and one place super crowded.

P.S. Just a bit info for Anet ppl. If I remember that correctly, Seinfeld show was based a lot about statistics from marketing data at start, it was going to fail. What they thought after that? Well, we are going to fail probably, what the hell, lets try it our way – and there you have it, famous TV show. Try it your way. You might fail or not, but statistics are just helpful, hope you don’t make them the most important part of GW 2 future.

I had a guild of 50ish players. Followed the same fate only probably in less than 2-3 months. I stayed on the longest with maybe 2 friends who eventually quit so i did as well. I’m checking back in after not really playing at all since the lost shores event “which was a big dissapointment..but the fractals was neat”.

My guild ages were no lower than 23 and as high as 34. I also asked them, and the biggest complaints were EXACTLY the same as yours, the biggest one being….no one talked or grouped together. Because…there really is no reason to even have guilds in guild wars 2 outside WvW you get next to no perks. The outdoor “raid” monsters are easy and anyone who happens to be standing nearby can just jump in and join. These features sounded really neat…and i dont have a problem with them…but its true there really is nothing to do really as a guild bigger than 5 players. Great single player game though, we all had a lot of fun playing it. We’re all just paying other things waiting for EQ next. I check back here once and awhile incase the Esport thing isnt dead.

EDIT: reading up on the SPVP….sounds like the E-sport is dead. Especially in america. Oh well, dont regret buying the game was a fun single player game. Hope it stays successful for those who enjoy what it is.

To OP : nice tread, I agree all, guild are just a chat atm. And… Does someone have understand what a guild bank is needed for in this game ? Changed 2 guilds (one small, one large) and no one use this “game feature” called “guild bank”.

I completely disagree with the OP’s stance, not because I think his points aren’t valid or because I think that he’s wrong. I just disagree because I’m looking for exactly the opposite of what he is.

I hate guild drama. I’m totally burned out from past games when it comes to that stuff.

I hate gear grinds and any “carrot on a stick” mechanic. I don’t need to feel fulfilled from pixelated items with bigger numbers.

I hate frustratingly difficult content. A lot of more hardcore players would argue that if you can beat an encounter on the first try, its too easy. I disagree. If there’s no chance for me to beat it on the first go, I’m not sure I’ll give it a second or third try. Its not worth my time.

I hate rigidly enforced group dynamics. I like having a complete character who is self sufficient but benefits from those around him and also aids those he travels with. I DO NOT like having a character who’s only a partial character who is completely dependent on his allies because he’s severely lacking in aspects like damage, durability or support.

Basically, what I’m trying to say is that I’m the type of player this game fits right now (barring any more Ascended gear / Fractals BS). But any attempt to shift the game’s direction towards something that the OP’s guild would find more entertaining and I’ll be gone. I do not want to see a single aspect of what he’s describing added to this game.

Not to nitpick or anything as I feel you wrote the OP to put out a general feeling, but you wrote that many of your players stopped playing PRE 80, one reason being lack of group content.

In all of those other themeparks (I too have played them all and continue to pop my head in from time to time), None of them really have group content until the you hit raids. If your speaking about dungeons, it’s the same thing here. I didn’t even start doing dungeons until I hit 80 here. My 4th character to be 80 just hit 75 and I did his first dungeon last night.

Dungeons I think you start at what, 30? Pretty much the same in most MMO’s that have a LvLing system.

If your talking about WoW or Swtor having non-instanced outside elite or group areas, well….as you level, travel to zones above your level in a group. However, stealth in all three games beats all of this content easily solo anyways.

I’m just wondering what are in those other games that you can do as a group that you can’t do here, besides raiding? (pve wise, pvp is a different animal)

With that said, I do agree group content here needs to rear its head in the form of 10 mans. Even GW1 had 8 as a basic group limit with 12 for Elite missions.

Elfangle.4503:

The first Guild Wars was not a niche game… A game that sells 6 million copies and is able to hold its own for 7 years against WoW, coming from a fairly new developer can be considered a pretty huge success.

It held what against who? I completely paled in the shadow of WoW. It was nigh unplayable do to the awkward controls and strange “no jumping” clause.

It may have sold 6 million boxes over the course of the entire franchise, but the number players was a fraction of a fraction of that. And if you’re going to count it that way, you will also have to admit WoW has sold over 30 million.

Every MMO pales in the shadow of WoW. WoW is the anomoly. And GW1 wasn’t a MMO tbh. Hell, most successful MMO’s don’t reach a quarter of WoW’s subs.

I wanted to return to this thread with a question that’s been on my mind: What is the function of a Guild? Also: What is the role of Guild Leadership.

I hear about guilds falling apart, I hear about guilds struggling to have people keep playing, and people saying “I’ve been in lots of guilds that had no one after a few weeks / months…”

And I wonder: “What are these guilds doing?”

Are the Guild Leads and Officers in these guilds organizing dungeons? Are they commanders in WvW? Are they checking in with players to see if people need help? Are they starting conversations in /Guild to get people engaged?

And those are what I think of as the in game basics…. That’s not even getting into the crazyness of guild created events, organized roleplaying, or anything else…. that’s just the general sort of behavior I expect out of guild leadership.

There’s a reason I’m not guild lead for my guild anymore… my wife doesn’t like the amount of time that it took to admin the bugger thing, and I’m glad that one of the other founding officers was willing to shoulder the admin burden this time around. It leaves me free to do what I like doing the most: organizing dungeons and meta events. I’m an officer, it comes with perks, and it comes with obligations, and those obligations… they are things I enjoy doing!

So, what do people expect of Guild Leadership? What is a guild for?

(Oh, and someone above comented about guild storage…. our guild uses it as a place to put gear that may be useful to people leveling alts and food / potions that come in handy. We also allow people who want to toss $$ in towards helping officers get commander do exactly that, only the guild lead can withdraw $$, so we have very little worry about people ‘stealing from the guild.’ )

Omega.1473:

I completely disagree with the OP’s stance, not because I think his points aren’t valid or because I think that he’s wrong. I just disagree because I’m looking for exactly the opposite of what he is.

And thats why most MMOs sux imho. Not ofc because of your opinion, but because there is so many different views on “good MMO”, yet most developers try to please as much people as possible (at least usualy) and thats why its not working. Games which target certain audience have maybe less players at start etc., but they might survive way longer, because these games actualy target someone, not just anyone.

Im a member of OP’s guild ….

The thing about written words is, that they are often read the way the reader wants to and not how the writer ment it.

People put to much into loot and grind !

We are both a soicial & raiding guild, strong social bond both in game and in RL, it is not about the loot “items”, its about us wanting large scale raiding, its about having somthing to strive for personaly and as a guild after hitting max level, again not for the loot as much as having some quality game time with the guildies.

sadly this game is falling short, but what a great start it had, such potential …

Best regards ..
Vaxul

May be it is me, but reading some comments here remind me that every human when read a text, read what they want read, not what it is wrote in the text.

The OP want to talk about a main aspect of GW2 and guilds, not about gear grind or kind of game progression.

Many player do not want feel bound to another group of players… it is ok and respectable, but many other (like ME) like group play where actions are carried together to succeed.. it is also OK, there is nothing wrong in both play style.

Now.. can someone of the “enlightened” solo players that do not like competitions and challenges, explain to me why there can not be contents for guilds in a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ON LINE GAME ? I’m fine with contents for solo players, but solo playing is a CHOICE, do you like it ? Do it, but do not complain about guild features… it is stupid make comments about something that you never do/did.

Now.. can someone of the “enlightened” solo players that do not like competitions and challenges, explain to me why there can not be contents for guilds in a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ON LINE GAME ? I’m fine with contents for solo players, but solo playing is a CHOICE, do you like it ? Do it, but do not complain about guild features… it is stupid make comments about something that you never do/did.On footnote, please do not say “They will implement guild housing in a future” because I bought the game sometimes ago… not “in the future”, when you buy a product, it is for the present not for a future that “probably” you will see but may be not.

Now.. can someone of the “enlightened” solo players that do not like competitions and challenges, explain to me why there can not be contents for guilds in a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ON LINE GAME ? I’m fine with contents for solo players, but solo playing is a CHOICE, do you like it ? Do it, but do not complain about guild features… it is stupid make comments about something that you never do/did.On footnote, please do not say “They will implement guild housing in a future” because I bought the game sometimes ago… not “in the future”, when you buy a product, it is for the present not for a future that “probably” you will see but may be not.My 2 cents.

VOXofSD.7085:

Im a member of OP’s guild ….

The thing about written words is, that they are often read the way the reader wants to and not how the writer ment it.

People put to much into loot and grind !

We are both a soicial & raiding guild, strong social bond both in game and in RL, it is not about the loot “items”, its about us wanting large scale raiding, its about having somthing to strive for personaly and as a guild after hitting max level, again not for the loot as much as having some quality game time with the guildies.

sadly this game is falling short, but what a great start it had, such potential …

Best regards ..
Vaxul

I was writing my post when your came up. I agree with you.

VOXofSD.7085:

Im a member of OP’s guild ….

The thing about written words is, that they are often read the way the reader wants to and not how the writer ment it.

People put to much into loot and grind !

We are both a soicial & raiding guild, strong social bond both in game and in RL, it is not about the loot “items”, its about us wanting large scale raiding, its about having somthing to strive for personaly and as a guild after hitting max level, again not for the loot as much as having some quality game time with the guildies.

sadly this game is falling short, but what a great start it had, such potential …

Best regards ..
Vaxul

I am former hardcore raider, I saw every boss from release upto the start of Wrath. I got a server first on m’uru and have a server first feat of strenght on kil’jaeden. (or had, my account got hacked and after I quit wow I elected to never reclaim it.)

Large scale raiding will never happen, this game isn’t designed for it. Or rather it is deliberately designed to head in a direction away from it.

The design philosophy of GW2 was to remove the exclusionary designs of other mmorpgs. The very things that make raiding challenging or rewarding to some also make it incredibly exclusionary.

You could not shoehorn raiding into this game, it simply wouldn’t work. Raiding is highly tuned and highly scripted and requires the developer to have a reasonable understanding of what class roles will be present in the raid. This game is designed around being able to take the player and not the class while retaining classes that feel completely different and not completely homogenized like modern WoW.

This game does present challenging content, with the addition of the fractals you can literally set your own difficulty level while reaping better rewards the deeper you go.

There are several large scale player events within the world if you absolutely have to roll out in a large group. But you must realise they are balanced to be as inclusionary as possible. Which is why they lack significant fail conditions or require significant teamwork.

Never say never, but as the game is in its current form I cannot see raids working at all. There would have to be significant and damaging changes to the class mechanics to add raiding. I don’t want to say “this isn’t the game for you” as there are pleanty of other parts of the game to enjoy if you’ll let yourself. But I also think it’s unwise to be holding out for raids in this game. Better scaled and difficult dynamic world events? YES! But instanced raid dungeons? It’s very very very unlikely.

Accually i gotta agree i’d like more communication with people in guild and working together but i’ll work on that;) Also game does encourage teamwork with people you know just does it subtly, not a nazi labor camp way “Sucht manche fur deine guild oder stirb!” (look for ppl for your guild or die!).

Rather then setting up impossible challenges to climb alone forcing ppl to guild, they include flavor to quests when more join. Like in charr territory you find those charr turrets here and there that are just begging to be manned by one homicadal maniac while rest of his party holds the line so the monsters stay in the firing zone;)

or that hot oil cauldron in shiverpeaks lionguard outpost that you can pour on the sons of swanir storming the gate. THAT HAS TO HURT!

Or the combo fields and their effects. This is not something you can truly use with randoms.

Stuff like this just begs for a party that knows what it’s doing, in short a guild one!
I just wished more people appreciated that and joined:)

Omega.1473:

I completely disagree with the OP’s stance, not because I think his points aren’t valid or because I think that he’s wrong. I just disagree because I’m looking for exactly the opposite of what he is.

I hate guild drama. I’m totally burned out from past games when it comes to that stuff.

I hate gear grinds and any “carrot on a stick” mechanic. I don’t need to feel fulfilled from pixelated items with bigger numbers.

I hate frustratingly difficult content. A lot of more hardcore players would argue that if you can beat an encounter on the first try, its too easy. I disagree. If there’s no chance for me to beat it on the first go, I’m not sure I’ll give it a second or third try. Its not worth my time.

I hate rigidly enforced group dynamics. I like having a complete character who is self sufficient but benefits from those around him and also aids those he travels with. I DO NOT like having a character who’s only a partial character who is completely dependent on his allies because he’s severely lacking in aspects like damage, durability or support.

Basically, what I’m trying to say is that I’m the type of player this game fits right now (barring any more Ascended gear / Fractals BS). But any attempt to shift the game’s direction towards something that the OP’s guild would find more entertaining and I’ll be gone. I do not want to see a single aspect of what he’s describing added to this game.

This is exactly one of my points..
You see, I am a MMO player, you sir, is a solo player.
This MMO, is more friendly to the solo players, and you are loving it,
while us MMO players who like the typical MMO aspects of raiding, challenge and grinding, we are missing the real MMO part in GW2.. We love the game, it has sooo much MMO potential, but there is nothing in GW2 for “oldschool” MMO guilds and players… GW2 is a MSORPG, its almost a new standard, Massive Soloplayer Online Role Playing Game.

Just because you run around in areas where 20+ other players also play, that does not make the game a real multiplayer. Multiplayergames only earn the title when the game content give players a reason to work together.

Then some will argue, that everyone in GW2 play “together” because you always rez and heal, and fight alongside those around you. And that is something i love about GW2! This game makes players more friendly – that is great.
But it does not make people play together as a group!
Did you talk to the last guy you rezzed? Did you even notice the name of the last guy who rezzed you? It will only be a few percent who can honestly say “yes” to this!.

GW2 might have lots of people playing around each other, but they do so mostly anonymiously (spell? lol).. Its a solo game in a MMO setting,

And yes, people CAN just group together, so why dont we?
Because you can solo everything but event bosses and dungeons.
If there was challenging content like raids, people are forced to make grops and raids, and forced to work together – And that my friend, is the essence of real MMO’s.

w

You sir, have a biased view on MMOs.

Alice.8694:

Large scale raiding will never happen, this game isn’t designed for it. Or rather it is deliberately designed to head in a direction away from it.

You could not shoehorn raiding into this game, it simply wouldn’t work. Raiding is highly tuned and highly scripted and requires the developer to have a reasonable understanding of what class roles will be present in the raid.

Let me prove you wrong.

I suggest that GW2 get 2 things implemented.

1. Rewards, that give players more to work for, that will take longer to get, but is also upgrades that are accessible to everyone, no matter if you craft, pvp, raid og still just do solo.

2. I suggest implementing raids to GW2, in a way that feel natural to the GW2 lore, to the current game, and give us MMO raiding crazy kittens what we miss the most.
I will even suggest it based on what GW2 has already got.

First a new reward system.
It will co-exist fine with how the game works today.
Lets call the new monetary system for rewards “Endgame Tokens” = "ET"s.

I am not going to put values on stuff here, but let ET’s drop and be rewards for different actions.. Examples.
- If you harvest a resource, there can be X% chance that Y ET’s drop.
- When you craft something, there is X% chance that you get some ET’s.
- Mobs can drop ET’s
- 5 man dungeons reward ET’s along with the normal ones. Harder mode = more ET’s.
- PVP kills give X ET’s automatically… (did they change the WvW loot system yet?)
- WvW kills give ET’s.. Actually my thoght for the base value is 1 PVP kill = 1 ET. And then balance everything else after that.

But you get the point – whatever your interest is in the game, you can get ET’s. So using ET’s as rewards in NEW Raids, will not conflict with raid-haters interests – everyone will have acces to ET’s in their area of interest..

ET VENDOR.
ET’s is a new payment for special rewards. Some are permanent, some are periodic, and the price will of course vary, so that permanent skills/boosts are much more expencive.. But the simple beauty is that this reward table is ongoing, continuing, and will provide forever a carrot on a stick, something to keep us going hunting for.

ET ideas – this is just reward brainstorming to give an idea, and can be changed to balance the game. But examples.:
20 ET’s can be traded for 1 Skillpoint.
40 ET’s can be traded for a 1 hour 1% critchance buff. (dont stack)
XX ET’s can be used as teleport payment.
50 ET’s can be traded for a 1 hour 50% CC resistance.
250 ET’s can be traded for bonus basic Stat.
1000 ET’s can be traded for 1 extra Trait point.
XXXX ET’s can be traded for 10% permanent CC resistance.
XXX ET’s can be traded for a specific class 5% longer range with Y weapon.

Reward possibilities are endless, also without making any rewards become too powerful. It should be no different than when different level chars. meet in PVP. The higher level have maybe a 10-20% advantage, but personal skill is still the key element to win.

You see, I/We dont need a new raid system with better gear. All we need is something that give small continueing upgrades. Something that we want to have, and its going to take some time to get it, but its worth working for, and that gives us the grind we need, and it gives GW2 more people who come back to put a lot more hours of playingtime in the game.

NOW RAIDS…
How can it be implemented, without making too great changes to the GW2 we love today?

Well raid rewards was just covered. Bosses should drop more ET’s than trashmobs.. Any questions?…

A simple and fairly easy to implement solution is to make 10-15 or maybe 20 player raid instances, just like the dungeons and personal events work today…
You already see Events with 20+ active characters in your personal story today. Make it an instance for 20+ players, and boost the difficullty accordingly.
I mean, take the story part where you defend the fort in Lions gate, and one of the dragons breach the wall. Its a great story part with different chapters.. OMG I would love to play that one with 19 other members from my guild, over and over again.

But basically, take content already in the game, and when 10 man want to go raiding, then they just enter a dungeon/instance of their own, with story elements, and chapter events, and go through the scenarios… Make the difficulty level fairly challenging, just like Dungeons, and then options for harder runs later..
Harder runs = better ET rewards…

Even solo players out there should understand that this will make more people have fun in GW2, and they don’t get cheated, because if balanced right, the ET rewards and prices, will be fair no matter what you do!

Just a thought..

w

wOOOOt.6407:

yada yada tokens

yada yada raids

We have this tokens ingame, they are called Karma.
We just lack something to spend them on, ANet is probably working on that.

Free yourself from the idea of closed encounters of the raid kind. A public dungeon might be sort of acceptable for most players, but the kind of raids you are calling for are not what ANet stands for.
I understand you want them, desperately, but I fear, you are playing the wrong game…

wOOOOt.6407:

I am not going to put values on stuff here, but let ET’s drop and be rewards for different actions.. Examples.
- If you harvest a resource, there can be X% chance that Y ET’s drop.
- When you craft something, there is X% chance that you get some ET’s.
- Mobs can drop ET’s
- 5 man dungeons reward ET’s along with the normal ones. Harder mode = more ET’s.
- PVP kills give X ET’s automatically… (did they change the WvW loot system yet?)
- WvW kills give ET’s.. Actually my thoght for the base value is 1 PVP kill = 1 ET. And then balance everything else after that.

You just made raids completely optional, one of your main complaints about all the current high level content was that it was optional, especially dungeons if i recall.

A simple and fairly easy to implement solution is to make 10-15 or maybe 20 player raid instances, just like the dungeons and personal events work today…
You already see Events with 20+ active characters in your personal story today. Make it an instance for 20+ players, and boost the difficullty accordingly.
I mean, take the story part where you defend the fort in Lions gate, and one of the dragons breach the wall. Its a great story part with different chapters.. OMG I would love to play that one with 19 other members from my guild, over and over again

Nothing you’ve said is very convincing, you haven’t tackled the issue I presented of the lack of defined roles in the game and the demand for roles in a scripted raid environment.

And there is still one final objection I can raise that instantly invalidates the need for raids.

“Why not just make it a dynamic event?”

Honestly if you want large group based content in GW2 that should be your avenue of attack. Because raids are highly unlikely and entirely polar to the games design, but dynamic events are what the world pve is all about.