Guild Wars 2

Sariel V.7024:

Don’t know what your problem is, mine absolutely shreds.

Your logical fallacy is: “Anecdotal”

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Because they refuse to seperate pvp and pve balancing, like they did in gw1. As long as pvp and pve balance isn’t seperated, we will never even get close to balance.

I don’t understand why people keep repeating this lie.. they’ve already done that, there are already skills and traits that behave differently in PvE than in PvP.

TheDaiBish.9735:

ZannX.4058:

This is a 10+ year old solved issue (see every other MMO, notably you know what).

There’s a key difference though:

• In the game-that-shall-not-be-named and most other MMO’s, DoT’s tend to have very little variation in the damage they do; the only damage variable tends to be if it crits or not.
• In GW2, if 25 bleeds got applied in 1 second, every single one of them bleeds could have a different value, and so would technically count as 25 different conditions.

If you are talking about WoW than this is no longer true. Damage of every tick is now calculated from your current stats – not from stats you had when you applied your DoT.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Because they refuse to seperate pvp and pve balancing, like they did in gw1. As long as pvp and pve balance isn’t seperated, we will never even get close to balance.

I don’t understand why people keep repeating this lie.. they’ve already done that, there are already skills and traits that behave differently in PvE than in PvP.

So PvP and PvE balance is completely seperated? ALL skills and traits have their own PvP versions, balanced specificaly for a PvP environment? PvP has it’s own seperate PvP Equipment?

I don’t think so.

PvP has separate equipment yes… and not all skills are split in GW1, only 10 to15 %.

And as said in this thread PvP split wouldn’t change anything because the cap doesn’t exist because of pvp but because of pve and number of calculation. The only thing that can be changed is the damage they… like how retalation and confusion are split currently.

TheDaiBish.9735:

-snip-

sigh

What about my example didn’t you kittening get? The amount of stacks on the whole map <= amount of stacks on one world boss, so same amount of bandwidth and server power used as it is now, even if they did this change. Just because, instead of distributing pieces on a board of checkers, you pile them all on top of each other, they do not suddenly become more pieces.

Ranael.6423:

Out of the different things you do in game (sPvP, WvW, open-world, World boss, dungeons, exploration) the condi cap is mostly reached (and a problem) in two cases World bosses and Dungeons… but not always.
In term of damaging conditions, confusion and torment are less a problem than the others.

In the case of World boss for example, the vinewrath is not so awful for condi cap since during lane phase not everyone focus the same mob. Arguably during boss phase when enough people died against thrasher you’re free to apply your conditions. Orr bosses are really often done by 10-15 people without too much trouble for conditions.
Other World bosses are anyway just a zerg fest since the introduction of timers. You can do them as full healer or tank (aka with minimal damage) and the boss will die in any case.

In dungeons it mainly affects un-organized PUGs who don’t want to go as fast as possible. If you run a “slow” dungeon with guildies you set up your builds before starting in order to optimize the conditions applications.

So the problem is really not as bad as people like to complain about. I don’t say the statu quo is the best deal but I don’t think this really hurts the game so much.

To get condi build a bit more reliable I would change all minor traits that apply condi on crit from minor to major so that players have to actively slot them… it would greatly reduce the bleed cap (and maybe burning too) at least in dungeons.
World bosses are a desperate cause since they are so easy and timed….

Actually 25 stacks happen on Champion-enemies, too. Easily. And what is the “most important” PvE group content? Champions, Bosses, Dungeons. So , yes, it IS a problem in PvE. One that is easily fixable, there are so many great ideas that would easily work out floating around , but no, they do not even try. And the problems with Condi in PvE aren’t the only ones. There are still bugs FROM RELEASE in this game, some of which invalidate whole playstyles (like minions), break the game (like skipping final boss in CoF p3), and many more. And then there is the huge imbalance of professions in PvE and PvP.

Shiki.7148:

TheDaiBish.9735:

-snip-

sigh

What about my example didn’t you kittening get? The amount of stacks on the whole map <= amount of stacks on one world boss, so same amount of bandwidth and server power used as it is now, even if they did this change. Just because, instead of distributing pieces on a board of checkers, you pile them all on top of each other, they do not suddenly become more pieces.

Ranael.6423:

Out of the different things you do in game (sPvP, WvW, open-world, World boss, dungeons, exploration) the condi cap is mostly reached (and a problem) in two cases World bosses and Dungeons… but not always.
In term of damaging conditions, confusion and torment are less a problem than the others.

In the case of World boss for example, the vinewrath is not so awful for condi cap since during lane phase not everyone focus the same mob. Arguably during boss phase when enough people died against thrasher you’re free to apply your conditions. Orr bosses are really often done by 10-15 people without too much trouble for conditions.
Other World bosses are anyway just a zerg fest since the introduction of timers. You can do them as full healer or tank (aka with minimal damage) and the boss will die in any case.

In dungeons it mainly affects un-organized PUGs who don’t want to go as fast as possible. If you run a “slow” dungeon with guildies you set up your builds before starting in order to optimize the conditions applications.

So the problem is really not as bad as people like to complain about. I don’t say the statu quo is the best deal but I don’t think this really hurts the game so much.

To get condi build a bit more reliable I would change all minor traits that apply condi on crit from minor to major so that players have to actively slot them… it would greatly reduce the bleed cap (and maybe burning too) at least in dungeons.
World bosses are a desperate cause since they are so easy and timed….

Actually 25 stacks happen on Champion-enemies, too. Easily. And what is the “most important” PvE group content? Champions, Bosses, Dungeons. So , yes, it IS a problem in PvE. One that is easily fixable, there are so many great ideas that would easily work out floating around , but no, they do not even try. And the problems with Condi in PvE aren’t the only ones. There are still bugs FROM RELEASE in this game, some of which invalidate whole playstyles (like minions), break the game (like skipping final boss in CoF p3), and many more. And then there is the huge imbalance of professions in PvE and PvP.

But you don’t have pay for month subscription!
As the result we got poor and not motivated developers

OP I absolutely agree with you!

Condis need their own individual stacks
They need crits that matter
Even if it were after reaching a certain stack level of burning bleeding and poison to do it it needs fixing.

Oh and it doesn’t matter what happens in PVP because PVE has long had to deal with certain changes that have nerfed certain classes and specs to ground for the sake of keeping the Esport nonsense alive.

Quite frankly it’s our turn to shine in this expansion (PVE players).

Clear evidence that Anet gives no kittens about anything not PvP:

- Condition damage still borked despite it being a super obvious issue from day one and them acknowledging it as an issue almost 3 years ago.

- Necromancer still crap in PvE and none of the new traits added help.

- Engies still can’t enable autocasting on grenades despite the fact that nothing moves in PvE anyway so ground target is pointless.

- Ranger sword still animation locked, despite the fact that again nothing moves.

- Elementalists of all classes keep getting DPS buffs.

- Confusion duration buffed in PvE but nothing else, demonstrating a staggering lack of awareness of what actually needs fixing.

Ranael.6423:

PvP has separate equipment yes

No it doesn’t

Feature pack and Gear Unification ring a bell?

All PvP equipment (armor, weapons, amulets, etc.) can no longer be obtained or equipped.
Upon entering Heart of the Mists, players will have their PvP items removed from their character inventory, character equipment, PvP locker, and account bank. This includes PvP chests.
All removed items will have their appearance unlocked in the account wardrobe.

Characters in PvP will use the same armor and weapons from PvE.
All items give zero attribute, rune, sigil, or infusion bonuses in PvP.
All items function as level 80 exotic-quality items.
Chest, leg, and boot armor still contribute to the total defense value.
All attribute values are consistent with the old system.
PvP gear now includes unique rune, sigil, and amulet slots.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

No it doesn’t

Feature pack and Gear Unification ring a bell?

All items give zero attribute, rune, sigil, or infusion bonuses in PvP.
All items function as level 80 exotic-quality items.
Chest, leg, and boot armor still contribute to the total defense value.
All attribute values are consistent with the old system.
PvP gear now includes unique rune, sigil, and amulet slots.

And you don’t see a difference between PvE and PvP ? They have the exact same equipment ? Ever heard about PvP amulets ?

Unless you were talking about skin balance….

Ranael.6423:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

No it doesn’t

Feature pack and Gear Unification ring a bell?

All items give zero attribute, rune, sigil, or infusion bonuses in PvP.
All items function as level 80 exotic-quality items.
Chest, leg, and boot armor still contribute to the total defense value.
All attribute values are consistent with the old system.
PvP gear now includes unique rune, sigil, and amulet slots.

And you don’t see a difference between PvE and PvP ? They have the exact same equipment ? Ever heard about PvP amulets ?

Unless you were talking about skin balance….

Hmm I see. I stand corrected.

Shiki.7148:

sigh

What about my example didn’t you kittening get? The amount of stacks on the whole map <= amount of stacks on one world boss, so same amount of bandwidth and server power used as it is now, even if they did this change. Just because, instead of distributing pieces on a board of checkers, you pile them all on top of each other, they do not suddenly become more pieces.

I got and understood your example.

Firstly (and it’s something that I didn’t finish on my last post), we have no idea of how much bandwidth condition calculation takes up. I’d wager that they allocate bandwidth specifically to certain tasks – in this case, calculating conditions. Given what someone said before – inefficient netcode – chances are condition calculation probably uses up more bandwidth than ideal.

Now, if this is true (and I can’t imagine they wouldn’t assign bandwidth limits to tasks instead of letting it run rampant) they can’t increase the amount of bandwidth assigned to condition calculation (because that’s what happens during boss fights – the amount of conditions being calculated rises because of a) adds and b) the fight is an extended fight that it’s easier to apply and maintain 25 stacks for extended periods of time) without taking bandwidth from somewhere else, thus potentially affecting performance.

As an example, let’s say that 40% of the total assigned bandwidth for condition calculation for a server is constantly in use during the down-time between bosses. During boss fights, this jumps up to 55%, meaning that the required bandwidth being used for condition calculation during boss fights is 15%. That’s for 25 shared stacks of bleed, confusion, torment etc etc. Obviously you don’t want to be using 100% of bandwidth at all times, since you need a buffer for times where there is unusually large amounts of activity.

Now imagine each player got their own stack for damaging conditions.

How much more bandwidth do you think that would require? Because if that amount of bandwidth required exceeds 100%, that would cause lag in the condition calculations.

Secondly, the amount of stacks on the map at any one time are for the most part going to be far, far less than during a boss fight for a variety of reasons (mobs have lower health and so die quicker, the majority of player activity tends to follow the bosses, groups of mobs spawn during the boss fights etc).

I cannot see a map having the same activity in terms of condition calculation before and after the boss fight as during the boss fight, unless you have reason to assume otherwise?

Which brings me back to the original point. The amount of condition calculation would drastically increase if each player was given their own stack on a world boss, simply because the amount of activity in the game increases when a boss spawns. Thus stacks are limited to prevent bandwidth usage spiraling out of control.

Brahmincorle.1264:

If you are talking about WoW than this is no longer true. Damage of every tick is now calculated from your current stats – not from stats you had when you applied your DoT.

Huh, interesting. Can a boss also have multiple copies of a DoT on them then as well? Last time I played – think it was about 6 – 7 months back – I remember my DoT’s getting overwritten by another player.

TheDaiBish.9735:

sigh
bla bla bla.

Big demonstration of the lack of knowledge of computer science.

Just say – you know nothing.

I have played WoW and Rift – they able to support condition and etc for each player separately.

Of course these game have different condition damage mechanics – but this mechanic works correctly and conditional damage builds are viable.

This problem is a demonstration of ANET disability.

vpchelko.4261:

TheDaiBish.9735:

sigh
bla bla bla.

Big demonstration of the lack of knowledge of computer science.

Just say – you know nothing.

Please, enlighten me what I got wrong.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Please, enlighten me what I got wrong.

Edited.

Shortly – the current condition damage mechanic is mistake. it just demonstrates disability of ANET

vpchelko.4261:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Please, enlighten me what I got wrong.

Edited.

Shortly – the current condition damage mechanic is mistake. It just shows ANET disability.

Ok, but you called me out on my lack of knowledge of computer science.

I’m asking to point out where I’m wrong.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Ok, but you called me out on my lack of knowledge of computer science.

I’m asking to point out where I’m wrong.

Rift
World of Warcraft
Everything working.

Also each game action can be recorded by each player.

vpchelko.4261:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Ok, but you called me out on my lack of knowledge of computer science.

I’m asking to point out where I’m wrong.

Rift
World of Warcraft

So what you meant was I had a lack of knowledge regarding the mechanics of them games.

TheDaiBish.9735:

So what you meant was I had a lack of knowledge regarding the mechanics of them games.

Yes. and you just find problem where it does not exist.

There are problem only in ANET developers.

There is hope for the update. ANET will have money to support the product.

The only thing standing in the way of personal stacks is EPIDEMIC.

/2 cents.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

The only thing standing in the way of personal stacks is EPIDEMIC.

/2 cents.

Which could be changed to "Spread up to “x stacks” of all conditions on a target foe to all nearby foes."

So limit the number of stacks allowed to be spread

TheDaiBish.9735:

-snip-

And yet again, you did not get it, or you wouldn’t be still riding the “but they need more bandwidth” train. They. do not. need. MORE BANDWIDTH. Like, SERIOUSLY. I wonder why you just won’t get it in your head that 5 mobs on the same map having 20 stacks of bleed each and one mob having 20 stacks applied times 5 if 5 condi-players attack it is the EXACT SAME THING calculationwise?! And, since plkayers get the information on other players transmitted in the former case, they actually need more data transferred→more datause, and that works fine?

Seriously, try to make a programm that makes 5 instances of a “Monster” class and apply the worst-case-scenario of 20 timers for each of those 5 instances, ticking down individually.

Then make ONE instance of a class “Boss” and have the worst-case of 100 timers tick down.

The measure the memory and cpu usage of your programm. It will be exactly the same. See, 5*1*20 = 1*5*20 (monster*player*stacks = monster*player*stacks). They both end with 100 stacks calculated, but one ends with a player receiving the info (costing bandwidth) of all 5 20-stacks, and the other with just his own. Guess what is which. As for Adds, any class that can spam AE-conditions does it on regular mobs, too, so there, again, you end up with an equal amount of processing power and bandwidth needed. Your argument it takes more is completely invalid, because that isn’t how it works. This is why different maps are instanced from each other, and there are multiple servers hostin each map: because there is a maximum amount of players allowed on one at any given time, if there are too many you end in an overflowserver (or second main sever, depending on the amount of players). There won’t be suddenly more players than the maximum number allowed for each server, calculated to bear the load of managing every player using conditions without slowing down or breaking, even when each of those players decides to spread conditions to a different group of 5 monsters, just because a world boss event happens.

Shiki.7148:

And yet again, you did not get it, or you wouldn’t be still riding the “but they need more bandwidth” train. They. do not. need. MORE BANDWIDTH. Like, SERIOUSLY. I wonder why you just won’t get it in your head that 5 mobs on the same map having 20 stacks of bleed each and one mob having 20 stacks applied times 5 if 5 condi-players attack it is the EXACT SAME THING calculationwise?! And, since plkayers get the information on other players transmitted in the former case, they actually need more data transferred->more datause, and that works fine?

I stand by what I say – that more bandwidth would be needed – for the following reason:

Map activity fluctuates and isn’t a constant.

• Let’s say there are usually 50 people on a map and, for the sake of comparison, they all apply 25 stacks of bleed for 5 seconds (so 1250 bleeds). The boss spawns and now there’s 100 people and they’re all applying 25 stacks of bleed for 5 seconds (so 2500 bleeds) because each player gets their own stack. During which time are more conditions being calculated? After all, them extra stacks are going to use up more bandwidth, right?

• During boss fights, it’s easier to apply and maintain a high number of condition x. So, if there are 50 players on a map and they only manage to stack 10 bleeds (so 500 bleeds) on a mob before it dies, then them 50 players go to fight a world boss and they’re maintaining 20 bleeds (so 1000 bleeds), during which phase are more conditions being calculated?

I get what you’re saying, honestly. 5 stacks on 5 mobs = 5 stacks on 1 mob, computationally.

The flaw with your example though is that you seem to be saying that map activity before a boss fight = map activity during a boss fight which I find incredibly unlikely.

Yes, there are a maximum amount of players allowed on a map at any one time. That’s not to say that the maximum is always being filled though. Chances are if they had the same activity before and after the boss fight as during, Anet would have to lower the maximum amount of players allowed on a map to compensate for the additional constant activity on that map.

Shiki.7148:

TheDaiBish.9735:

-snip-

And yet again, you did not get it, or you wouldn’t be still riding the “but they need more bandwidth” train. They. do not. need. MORE BANDWIDTH. Like, SERIOUSLY. I wonder why you just won’t get it in your head that 5 mobs on the same map having 20 stacks of bleed each and one mob having 20 stacks applied times 5 if 5 condi-players attack it is the EXACT SAME THING calculationwise?! And, since plkayers get the information on other players transmitted in the former case, they actually need more data transferred->more datause, and that works fine?

Seriously, try to make a programm that makes 5 instances of a “Monster” class and apply the worst-case-scenario of 20 timers for each of those 5 instances, ticking down individually.

Then make ONE instance of a class “Boss” and have the worst-case of 100 timers tick down.

The measure the memory and cpu usage of your programm. It will be exactly the same. See, 5*1*20 = 1*5*20 (monster*player*stacks = monster*player*stacks). They both end with 100 stacks calculated, but one ends with a player receiving the info (costing bandwidth) of all 5 20-stacks, and the other with just his own. Guess what is which. As for Adds, any class that can spam AE-conditions does it on regular mobs, too, so there, again, you end up with an equal amount of processing power and bandwidth needed. Your argument it takes more is completely invalid, because that isn’t how it works. This is why different maps are instanced from each other, and there are multiple servers hostin each map: because there is a maximum amount of players allowed on one at any given time, if there are too many you end in an overflowserver (or second main sever, depending on the amount of players). There won’t be suddenly more players than the maximum number allowed for each server, calculated to bear the load of managing every player using conditions without slowing down or breaking, even when each of those players decides to spread conditions to a different group of 5 monsters, just because a world boss event happens.

FYI. In Rift or WoW – any player able to record all detail information about all players.
You can even inspect gear – instead of GW2 stupidest “ping your gear”!
In GW2 player receive detail information only about own skillz.

If they made DoTs exclusive only to those who speced heavily into condition damage trait lines than it would remove need for excessive computing power to calculate personal stacks of DoTs because there would be overal less DoTs applied. A scenario in which would be map population cap reached by too many DoT speced players which could make problems for servers is extremely unlikely and easily preventable.

ive tested some professions (not all) with condition builds (in general pve) and ive come to several conslusions.

1) Its best NOT to go full condi

Its actually pretty good to have a mix of 2 combo stats to make the “perfect” balance with your specific class.

On the classes ive played (warrior s/s Lb and ranger shortbow) ive noticed that the best damage stats would be rampager (Precision power condi)

Not only do you often crit this way and deal pure dmg your condi dmg will be pretty high up there as well. Combined crits + steady condi ticks = great dmg

+ Common crits can trigger “on crit” effects such as applying additional burst damage or a different kind of condition that your profession isnt able to apply by them self

2) Condi builds are best used on veterans, elites and champions

“trash” mobs die fairly quick in this game and you will most likely kill it faster with your crits than you could stack your bleeds high enough to make any difference.

however seeing 2000+ bleed ticks (and then theres 300-400 poison and 600-900 burning and torment) along with your frequent crits on a champion really does make a difference between a "hybrid " condi and pure zerker.

Having condi ticks on the mob also means you will still be doing damage even when you are dodging form hard attacks and backing off to heal up. With a pure zerker set up you will deal 0 damage in that period of time.

3) The major problem of condi builds- They are best used in small scale fights, up to 5 players party style.

Even tho having 1 rampager condi player in a 5 man party dungeon (or fighting a hard champion in the pve world) is pretty great, the reality kicks in.

The reality is that the rampager condi player wont be able to fully use his build cause :
- You have to stack in a corner in dungeons, rangers cant flank with a shortbow to apply bleeds
- A champion in pve world will most likely be attacked by 20 other players that will just apply their own weak conditions over your own.

And thats the major reason why condi builds arent viable. They are for solo/up to 5 man viable…but in a game where the WHOLE WORLD is one giant party….yeah

PVP and WVW are a whole different story.

Personally the way i look at the game is that every class has tools that they can apply in any situation.

There are different aspects of the game that require you to adapt and change your build to their specific situations:

-Pve world: Anything works here… tho having burst dmg vs trash mobs, perma swiftness and some sort of leaps and teleports is great since it lets you travel faster.

-Dungeons: They work how they work….while they can be finished even if everyone goes full clerics, they cant also be done in full zerker. And people just prefer to do them as fast as possible

-PvP: Each profession has several viable builds that lets them play in a specific position and fill up a specific role in their team. However how the player plays that build is what makes the difference (im looking at you courtyard map…and all of you players that go full pve in there and just mash buttons to aoe everything..)

-WvW: Its either command, follow commander, roam or scout. If you dont have the build that allows you to do those thing you will have a hard time running back when you get killed almost instantly

vpchelko.4261:

Shiki.7148:

TheDaiBish.9735:

-snip-

And yet again, you did not get it, or you wouldn’t be still riding the “but they need more bandwidth” train. They. do not. need. MORE BANDWIDTH. Like, SERIOUSLY. I wonder why you just won’t get it in your head that 5 mobs on the same map having 20 stacks of bleed each and one mob having 20 stacks applied times 5 if 5 condi-players attack it is the EXACT SAME THING calculationwise?! And, since plkayers get the information on other players transmitted in the former case, they actually need more data transferred->more datause, and that works fine?

Seriously, try to make a programm that makes 5 instances of a “Monster” class and apply the worst-case-scenario of 20 timers for each of those 5 instances, ticking down individually.

Then make ONE instance of a class “Boss” and have the worst-case of 100 timers tick down.

The measure the memory and cpu usage of your programm. It will be exactly the same. See, 5*1*20 = 1*5*20 (monster*player*stacks = monster*player*stacks). They both end with 100 stacks calculated, but one ends with a player receiving the info (costing bandwidth) of all 5 20-stacks, and the other with just his own. Guess what is which. As for Adds, any class that can spam AE-conditions does it on regular mobs, too, so there, again, you end up with an equal amount of processing power and bandwidth needed. Your argument it takes more is completely invalid, because that isn’t how it works. This is why different maps are instanced from each other, and there are multiple servers hostin each map: because there is a maximum amount of players allowed on one at any given time, if there are too many you end in an overflowserver (or second main sever, depending on the amount of players). There won’t be suddenly more players than the maximum number allowed for each server, calculated to bear the load of managing every player using conditions without slowing down or breaking, even when each of those players decides to spread conditions to a different group of 5 monsters, just because a world boss event happens.

FYI. In Rift or WoW – any player able to record all detail information about all players.
You can even inspect gear – instead of GW2 stupidest “ping your gear”!
In GW2 player receive detail information only about own skillz.

FWIW i have never had t hat happen in GW2 that being said i don’t pug often as I found a really cool guild upon my return to the game

i still think world bosses aside it would be far easier for everyone to just coordinate what type of conditions you are using to avoid the problem

TheDaiBish.9735:

Shiki.7148:

And yet again, you did not get it, or you wouldn’t be still riding the “but they need more bandwidth” train. They. do not. need. MORE BANDWIDTH. Like, SERIOUSLY. I wonder why you just won’t get it in your head that 5 mobs on the same map having 20 stacks of bleed each and one mob having 20 stacks applied times 5 if 5 condi-players attack it is the EXACT SAME THING calculationwise?! And, since plkayers get the information on other players transmitted in the former case, they actually need more data transferred->more datause, and that works fine?

I stand by what I say – that more bandwidth would be needed – for the following reason:

Map activity fluctuates and isn’t a constant.

• Let’s say there are usually 50 people on a map and, for the sake of comparison, they all apply 25 stacks of bleed for 5 seconds (so 1250 bleeds). The boss spawns and now there’s 100 people and they’re all applying 25 stacks of bleed for 5 seconds (so 2500 bleeds) because each player gets their own stack. During which time are more conditions being calculated? After all, them extra stacks are going to use up more bandwidth, right?

• During boss fights, it’s easier to apply and maintain a high number of condition x. So, if there are 50 players on a map and they only manage to stack 10 bleeds (so 500 bleeds) on a mob before it dies, then them 50 players go to fight a world boss and they’re maintaining 20 bleeds (so 1000 bleeds), during which phase are more conditions being calculated?

I get what you’re saying, honestly. 5 stacks on 5 mobs = 5 stacks on 1 mob, computationally.

The flaw with your example though is that you seem to be saying that map activity before a boss fight = map activity during a boss fight which I find incredibly unlikely.

Yes, there are a maximum amount of players allowed on a map at any one time. That’s not to say that the maximum is always being filled though. Chances are if they had the same activity before and after the boss fight as during, Anet would have to lower the maximum amount of players allowed on a map to compensate for the additional constant activity on that map.

Yeah but if it fluctuates isn’t the POINT. The POINT is, that the server HAS to have the power to conduct these calculations AND shouldn’t cause bandwidth problems, because servers normally are DESIGNED for the Worst Case scenario, that is common sense in computer science. And worst case scenario on a server is, in this case, a fully crowded server with only condition users. The Servers ARE designed to be able to prcess this much. Actually, there should be even a “puffer” so it cannot be DDOS’d as easily as if it was barely able to manage the worst case scenario. Meaning, while there may be more players on a map because a boss spawned, it doesn’t come close to the “worst case” the server is expected to be able to handle. I mean, remember launch? You’d end up on an overflow-server 90% of the time for any map, which means 1 or more servers were actually satcked FULL. And even if every single of those people would have played condition, the individual servers would have been able to handle it.

And with that we come full circle: It doesn’t matter that “usually there might be only 50 people”, what matters is that the server has a capacity limit of X players and is designed in such a way there will be no problems when these X amount of people are reached. No matter if it is for a boss, an event, newly released map or just because there are just that kitten many people wanting to play in the Silverwastes. Hence the “but when a boss spawns there are more people” argument is ALSO invalid. Well, except if they increase the limit of players for the time the boss spawns to a point where the server would becomne unstable if enough people wouldn’t actually go for the boss. Which isn’t the case.

Test.8734:

Nope, they won’t. They don’t want those changes in PvP, for ArenaNet PvP is more important than PvE (because they still have that “LOL E-Sport!” dream, regardless of how dead the PvP community is), and so ArenaNet won’t make different versions of fundamental game mechanics.

Seeing how a petty grudge against the game derives a person of the most obvious perceptions makes you kind of sad.

They ARE useful in general PvE. They do NOT kill as quickly (nor should they) as a Zerker build. They are not effective in large group situations (World Boss or Champ Trains) but that’s a different request than what the OP stated.

The ineffectiveness of Condi damage is VASTLY over-hyped (in thread, after thread, after thread…..)

why are ppl so focused on condition damage, it’s better to make damage more efficient when X condition is applied.
like when an enemy has burning on them, fire damage does more damage then when they don’t have burning on them.
the higher the stack, the more damage you do, it makes conditions allot more wanted and full-DPS builds can be nerfed accordingly.

It’s incredible how many people are defending where conditions are now when ArenaNet themselves have expressed concern about the current state.

Brother Grimm.5176:

They ARE useful in general PvE. They do NOT kill as quickly (nor should they) as a Zerker build. They are not effective in large group situations (World Boss or Champ Trains) but that’s a different request than what the OP stated.

The ineffectiveness of Condi damage is VASTLY over-hyped (in thread, after thread, after thread…..)

The source of the problem:
They do NOT effective because ANET don’t care about efficiency.

EASY TO FIX!! IN 4 STEPS!

1) Make all Condi stack to 5 only
2) Each player can only have 1 stack of each condi
3) Re-balance condi damage (WvW and PvP balance would be different than PvE in the Math parts)
4) Slightly tweak and changed some of the Condi skills.

Faux.1937:

EASY TO FIX!! IN 4 STEPS!

1) Make all Condi stack to 5 only.

5 stack only? What about World Bossz?

And what about critical damage? Another ANET mistake?
Two parameters of the character into the trash?

vpchelko.4261:

Faux.1937:

EASY TO FIX!! IN 4 STEPS!

1) Make all Condi stack to 5 only.

5 stack only? What about World Bossz?

And what about critical damage? Another ANET mistake?
Two parameters of the character into the trash?

And Im pretty sure content is balanced around 5 players…

But can make world bosses stack to 25 and make them different.

sorudo.9054:

…..full-DPS builds can be nerfed accordingly.

You say the damage is not to be focused on yet you want to nerf DPS builds?

I seriously can’t see how this would make the game better for anyone.

CD is less effective than direct damage and while that may upset some players, frankly, it hardly matters in the larger scheme of things. I guess I can see that 3 to 5 CD players have difficulty in Dungeons, but that is quite a nitch market to be pandering to.

Faux.1937:

And Im pretty sure content is balanced around 5 players…

But can make world bosses stack to 25 and make them different.

Of course If ANET limit population by 25 players by making separate instance for World Bossz

Although GW2 is supposed to move away from “trinity” its attribute system is still a trinity one.

There should have been 3-4 forms of damage, 3-4 forms of defense, and then people should have to pick the kind of offense they want, the kind of defense they want, and then some utility attributes that are not necessarily offensive or defensive.

Then make it so both players and enemies can switch between at least two of the in battle, and have openings at which certain forms or offense or defense work.

But as things are now, they just can go all out with defense or offense.

Bleed should just do extra damage if something is at 25 stacks and you try to place a new stack on it. In fact I think this should apply to most conditions like burning and poison as well.

As an example let’s say the bleed you try to apply would do 1000 damage over 8 seconds. If the target is already at 25 stacks, just make it hit for a flat 500 damage or even the whole 1000. Call it a condition critical or something.

I don’t think this change would affect pvp too much because how often is a player running around and living with 25 stacks of bleed. But they could disable this “condition critical” in PVP if they are really worried.

Coyote.7031:

-snip-

This is actually not a bad idea.

Sariel V.7024:

Don’t know what your problem is, mine absolutely shreds.

Agreed.

Thread title should read “Please make condition builds meta.”

Jasher.6580:

Coyote.7031:

-snip-

This is actually not a bad idea.

This is good idea. One example is Rogue class in WoW.

fireflyry.7023:

Sariel V.7024:

Don’t know what your problem is, mine absolutely shreds.

Agreed.

Thread title should read “Please make condition builds meta.”

There are mistake in game design – as the result only few weapons and stats are viable for meta builds.

Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power, Condition Damage are waste in PvE.
Because there are no tank classes (because of random agro), Poor healing scaling, Poor Condition Damage mechanics.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Ranael.6423:

PvP has separate equipment yes

No it doesn’t

Feature pack and Gear Unification ring a bell?

All PvP equipment (armor, weapons, amulets, etc.) can no longer be obtained or equipped.
Upon entering Heart of the Mists, players will have their PvP items removed from their character inventory, character equipment, PvP locker, and account bank. This includes PvP chests.
All removed items will have their appearance unlocked in the account wardrobe.

Characters in PvP will use the same armor and weapons from PvE.
All items give zero attribute, rune, sigil, or infusion bonuses in PvP.
All items function as level 80 exotic-quality items.
Chest, leg, and boot armor still contribute to the total defense value.
All attribute values are consistent with the old system.
PvP gear now includes unique rune, sigil, and amulet slots.

And don’t forget the need for Ascended to remain competative in WvW.

Coyote.7031:

Bleed should just do extra damage if something is at 25 stacks and you try to place a new stack on it. In fact I think this should apply to most conditions like burning and poison as well.

As an example let’s say the bleed you try to apply would do 1000 damage over 8 seconds. If the target is already at 25 stacks, just make it hit for a flat 500 damage or even the whole 1000. Call it a condition critical or something.

I don’t think this change would affect pvp too much because how often is a player running around and living with 25 stacks of bleed. But they could disable this “condition critical” in PVP if they are really worried.

This could be extended to include all of the conditions and adjusted as it has been in games like Rift to not affect PVP at all but only affect PVE gameplay especially in open world events. They’d have to do some major reworking on how support works for some classes as well as make some major changes to how traits work so that for example, if you increase to max on a certain trait line you’d get crits on conditions like they should be etc.

Now that they have an expansion coming and they have the means we’ll see if they can make these changes so that the rest of the game can be fixed.

tigirius.9014:

Now that they have an expansion coming and they have the means we’ll see if they can make these changes so that the rest of the game can be fixed.

We can only hope.

Andred.1087:

This has already been discussed and established in multiple places:

The problem is that condition stacks use inefficient netcode and so they are hard limited at 25 to prevent performance issues / lag

It has nothing to do with PvP balancing.

I’ve read the same in a couple of places by Anet devs… which is why I have no hope for Condi pve builds and never plan on running one myself.

thefantasticg.3984:

I’ve read the same in a couple of places by Anet devs… which is why I have no hope for Condi pve builds and never plan on running one myself.

Success is determined not by whether or not you face obstacles, but by your reaction to them. And if you look at these obstacles as a containing fence, they become your excuse for failure. If you look at them as a hurdle, each one strengthens you for the next.