Philosophy Shift to Less Choice
This is going on since the release of the LS. They dont want to give us a choice because they either think we are way too stupid for this and/or its simply more efficient. More choices means more programing. And more programing means more costs for them. GW2 is a game now in which profit means more than anything to the publisher. And if they have to dumb the game down to achieve the maximum profit they will do so without second thought.
This might be a valid point, except for the fact that this programming was already in place as far as PvE goes. There were already lots of choices available within the daily and monthly system, before the first attempted forcing of players into other parts of the game (the update before this one to the dailies).
But as for the rest of it, I agree with the profit thing. However, driving players away is not the way to bring in more profit, but less. Because people that otherwise might have been willing to support a game they enjoyed will be driven away or else less enjoyment, which results in less encouragement to support it. End result, less income, the opposite of what I presume they are trying to achieve. New players aren’t the only source of income for a game like this, and they would do well to remember the players that are already here.
Increasing restrictiveness is not a part of “play as you like”.
Neither is what a lot of people seem to think the term encapsulates, along with the grind comment from the videos before release . . .
I mean, it’s already a pile of dolyak droppings since a lot of people (disruptive sorts) can’t “play as they like” by deliberately disrupting the game, or scream RL racial slurs all over map chat. And I, personally, can’t run around beheading charr and punting asura out of the zone just for being in my way on a jumping puzzle or for existing . . .
“Play as you like” never existed in the first place if we’re going to be completely serious about interpreting it.
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Technically, before, you could only unlock your traits to use by paying gold to the trainer. Now, you can unlock them by either paying gold/SP or doing a task that costs you nothing but time.
So, technically, you have more choice now than before, as far as unlocking traits goes.
As well, there were 12 dailies to choose from before, and 12 dailies to choose from now. Same amount of choice on what dailies to do. As well, one can choose to get their 10 AP by never leaving PVP or WVW, while before they couldn’t always choose to do so.
There’s a difference between “less choice” and “making different choices”.
Unfortunately, this has been one of the typical, and incorrect, responses to everything about the dailies as well. I did the math before, from the actual options available and what you had to complete to get the chosen daily achievement, in regards to PvE which is what I play.
At the daily system before the one before this latest one, you had lets say 14 daily choice items to pick from 1 section, just PvE, just WvW, etc. , and had to do 5. I do not remember the exact total choices. But that ratio works out to approximately 35%. With the update before this one, you have the total choices available reduced to 10 within the chosen section, an increase in percentage of the total to 50%. With this last one, yes you only have to do 3, which most would say is less than 5. That is correct. But when you compare it to the available options of 4, some of which are not even reachable by some people on some of the days, the new percentage is 75%. So while it looks like you now have to do less, you have to actually complete a larger percentage of the available choices.
To those that are just saying, go to WvW or PvP, uhm, no. Just no. For whatever reason, that is not a choice to some of us. And many of you don’t even see that fighting for more choices applies to your part of the game as well, and would also benefit you, not hurt you. If the problem is limited choices in WvW and PvP, increase the available choices. Let the players decide what they want to do, and hold to the “play how you want to” idea.
There are two people that seem to be trying to derail the thread by trying to switch it to how fast people acquire resources and now legendaries (btw the root of that evil is precursors…)…
That’s not true. While precursor prices have risen, that’s more a response to an increase in the availability of gold. It’s not like there are fewer precursors dropping now than a year ago.
The whole premise of this thread is that there are options being taken away from PvE players, when the only reward for dailies is AP, something that is abundant in PvE relative to the other game modes. I think the availability of the singular reward which is apparently forcing PvE players to grind painful events or travel begrudgingly outside their comfort zones is extremely relevant to a conversation about PvE players having choices in what content they want to do.
And, like I said in my original posting, the change to dailies is merely the impetus to having this discussion. There is a larger picture, here. I also object to your assertion that the way to bring PvE in line with PvP and WvW as game modes is to make a more restrictive game for PvE. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you- I genuinely do not know.
But if the shift in philosophy to fewer choices was meant to balance things out for the other game modes, it has sorely failed in many ways. There’s no reward track for the personal story in PvP yet. Most of trait acquisition is located outside of WvW, and none of it is in PvP.
Do you genuinely feel as if PvE needs fewer choices to be in line with WvW/PvP? I am just really struggling with what people are even defending, at this point. Are you saying that there hasn’t been a distinct trend toward a more rigid structure to the GW2 PvE experience in the last year?
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
The choice issue actually has a lot to do with whether or not you’re actually an achievement hunter. Before I could get ten points a day through achievements, but I had to jump through many hoops to do it. It was a project.
Now, I can do just three achievements and I get ten points, every day. So far, nothing has been particularly onerous to me.
This gives me the freedom to do what I want the rest of the time. This change frees me up. Again, because of my emphasis on achievements, I sometimes didn’t have time to do everything I wanted. I have more time to do everything I want now.
The problem is that while that was what you chose to do, that was what YOU chose. Some of us are fine with not getting every single little achievement point every day by only doing the dailies and/or monthlies that we felt like. Now, due to the hassle of having to go all over the place to get them, instead of them happening naturally with how we were playing the game, some of us are now getting nothing for achievement points because of the all or nothing attitude that stinks with the skill point acquisition and even more so with the APs. You choosing to do more effort to get more achievement points is how it should work. You do more effort you get more reward for that effort. Now, it is just a hassle, and a pain in the kitten more than anything. It takes away enjoyment of the game for me and many others, because we are now being treated as if we are second class because we didn’t care about getting as many achievement points as some others.
Do you genuinely feel as if PvE needs fewer choices to be in line with WvW/PvP? I am just really struggling with what people are even defending, at this point. Are you saying that there hasn’t been a distinct trend toward a more rigid structure to the GW2 PvE experience in the last year?
I haven’t felt compelled to do anything particular in PvE for a long time. I just do what I feel like.
Admittedly, I haven’t made a new toon since the trait revamp, and that is a horribly restrictive change I’ll agree. But only because, in one way or another, you do have to get your traits if you want a fully functional character.
But all of the rest is just perception, really. People feel compelled to do things, because they feel compelled to do things.
At the daily system before the one before this latest one, you had lets say 14 daily choice items to pick from 1 section, just PvE, just WvW, etc. , and had to do 5.
WvW was lumped into PvE while “Daily PvP” was still separate, from what I recall. either that or it was not separated at all and was all “Daily”. I know because Daily WvW never showed up on my tabs. Ever.
I do not remember the exact total choices. But that ratio works out to approximately 35%.
Mmm, not that I recall, honestly. I think it was larger than that with regards to PvE vs WvW on the panels I used to look at.
Mostly because there was an overlap with availability . . . things such as “Condition Remover/Applier” or “Daily Dodger” could be done in either mode so I don’t know if it’s fair to count it as PvE or as both (similarly, “Daily Gatherer” could be done in WvW, and depending on where you did it, was probably better for you). But the WvW only achievements outnumbered PvE only achievements most of the time.
With the update before this one, you have the total choices available reduced to 10 within the chosen section, an increase in percentage of the total to 50%. With this last one, yes you only have to do 3, which most would say is less than 5. That is correct. But when you compare it to the available options of 4, some of which are not even reachable by some people on some of the days, the new percentage is 75%. So while it looks like you now have to do less, you have to actually complete a larger percentage of the available choices.
Mmm, a valid point regarding the available choices, but at the same time most of the requests seem to be centering on allowing PvE more options again compared to the other two. I think that’s were this is going slightly astray in my mind.
Let the players decide what they want to do, and hold to the “play how you want to” idea.
Again, that idea is largely null and void since “play as you want to” is already a broken promise from the time the servers opened publicly. You couldn’t play as you wanted to because the very construction of the game makes it impossible to turn charr into hide rugs again.
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The choice issue actually has a lot to do with whether or not you’re actually an achievement hunter. Before I could get ten points a day through achievements, but I had to jump through many hoops to do it. It was a project.
Now, I can do just three achievements and I get ten points, every day. So far, nothing has been particularly onerous to me.
This gives me the freedom to do what I want the rest of the time. This change frees me up. Again, because of my emphasis on achievements, I sometimes didn’t have time to do everything I wanted. I have more time to do everything I want now.
Thank you. This is the kind of discussion from the opposite point of view that I’m looking for.
I’m not arguing that the new system is bad, but you’d still be just as free to do what you want if there were 8 options per mode, and you still only had to complete 3 to get the points.
I’m not at all against more options per mode. I’m quite happy to see people happy with the game.
What I think Anet was trying to do was stop everyone from just doing the absolute easiest daily in the absolute easiest way.
For example in the old dailies, if you got Shiverpeakes killer, Wayfarer foothills was packed. If you got vet slayer, tons of people went to Wayfarer as well, to the dolyaks and spiders in the North East corner.
It trivialized dailies. Now they are a bit more involved…but just a bit.
And the rewards you got for doing the easy old ones you get anyway…all except for the achievement points.
I know that people are used to and enjoy achievement points being given out for sneezing, but I don’t mind going a bit out of the way for an achievement…and so far, that’s all I’ve had to do.
The point is that it was up to the players to complete their dailies, if they wanted to, how they wanted to.
And your other points are invalidated by the latest improvements. Now, because of some of the dailies, certain map zones are flooded while others are proverbial ghost towns, an issue you claim was a problem before, which is more of one now.
And the achievement points is an issue with the new system, with this all or nothing approach, is to make it even harder for some people to get any achievement points. And some of them were ridiculous, but it is even more ridiculous to expect players with limited resources, be it computer and/or internet capabilities, and new players, to be able to tackle a world boss where your completion is based on damage done. If you cannot move because of slow comp/internet, you cannot even do enough damage to get event credit. End result (speaking from experience) is just frustration for time wasted when you could have been doing something useful, and completing events that actually would help progress for the dailies in the older system. With the massive limits on the percentage of dailies needed to complete, this type of an event shouldn’t be anywhere near the daily list, nor should fractals. If there were lots of choices to pick from, then that would again be up to the player if they did that or not. And with achievement points tied to each item, they could do the ones they were able to do and still get something. So you AP hunters don’t feel left out, and Anet feels the need to keep at least a part of this kittened up system, let it be 3 APs for each item up to the cap, and if they do the 3 required, let that one net them 4 APs to get the 10 total.
Do you genuinely feel as if PvE needs fewer choices to be in line with WvW/PvP? I am just really struggling with what people are even defending, at this point. Are you saying that there hasn’t been a distinct trend toward a more rigid structure to the GW2 PvE experience in the last year?
I haven’t felt compelled to do anything particular in PvE for a long time. I just do what I feel like.
Admittedly, I haven’t made a new toon since the trait revamp, and that is a horribly restrictive change I’ll agree. But only because, in one way or another, you do have to get your traits if you want a fully functional character.
But all of the rest is just perception, really. People feel compelled to do things, because they feel compelled to do things.
Thank you very much for this feedback. It feels very straightforward, and it emphasizes that we disagree about what defines “choice” in a game like this, in some ways. I really want to thank you for your tone, here, because this is the sort of response that fosters a good discussion. (Note, this is not the only response that feels this way- there are many in this thread I haven’t mentioned because I assume people know, so please don’t feel left out if you didn’t get a mention. It doesn’t mean you didn’t also use an ideal tone.)
I want to thank everyone for doing their best to keep this civilized and engaging.
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
1) Newbies cannot do them. There is generally only one daily that can be done by a newbie without resorting to PvP/WvW, and characters below level 18 and 22 will not be able to see the PvP/WvW icons or know to go to Lion’s Arch.
From the Patch notes -
The number of available achievements per day is based on the highest-level character on an account:
Levels 1–10: 1 achievement per category
Levels 11–30: 3 achievements per category
Levels 31–80: 4 achievements per category
Be that as it may, less choice is not better than more choice. Fewer choices where you go to to complete the dailies, fewer choices on what you gather when that is one of the dailies, fewer choices all around. If fewer choices is the problem, fewer choices is not the solution, no matter how many different ways you try to present it.
Do you genuinely feel as if PvE needs fewer choices to be in line with WvW/PvP? I am just really struggling with what people are even defending, at this point. Are you saying that there hasn’t been a distinct trend toward a more rigid structure to the GW2 PvE experience in the last year?
I haven’t felt compelled to do anything particular in PvE for a long time. I just do what I feel like.
Admittedly, I haven’t made a new toon since the trait revamp, and that is a horribly restrictive change I’ll agree. But only because, in one way or another, you do have to get your traits if you want a fully functional character.
But all of the rest is just perception, really. People feel compelled to do things, because they feel compelled to do things.
Pretty much how I feel about this, but the reason I don’t make a new character is less the Trait business and more . . . they just don’t feel natural in my hands. I mean, I can’t really handle an Elementalist, Mesmer, or Necromancer – they don’t work for me. I can work a Thief but not nearly on the same level as my Ranger. My only Engineer quickly became a dumping ground for items I don’t need immediately or stacks of things for when I might need them again. (WHY SO MUCH BUTTER, SIX GODS?!)
I kind of play my Guardian since she is part of the Priory and I wanted to see what that plotline was like. I love my charr Warrior because I fell in love with the character from the first chapter of the Personal Story . . . but I run into problems wanting to play less like a Warrior instinctively and tending more towards Ranger behaviors.
So that’s where I wind up staying, and I don’t need another Ranger so . . . no new characters. If I really wanted a new character and had to get Traits? I’d make it a point to request for help from my Guild – ostensibly, that’s why guilds exist, right?
Anyway, I’m at a point with Guild Wars 2 where I log in, I fool around for a little bit, maybe look up an achievement I want to finish (fricking Dive Master . . . soon) or check out which World Boss is up and I can jump in on . . . or maybe I’ll go for gathering materials so I can keep working on my Wardrobe collection.
I don’t feel compelled to do anything, or even to play. I instead feel . . . I guess “satisfied” with what I have.
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I too am primarily a PvE player.
I too find the trait changes to be a concern when it comes to player choice, variety, and so on.
I find the new daily system to be better for one, myself at least, desiring more choice in how I spend most of my play time. A system that allows me to complete the dailies more quickly leaves me with more choice in how to spend the majority of my play time while still pursuing daily rewards.
I would not argue that any of the changes are to, “force,” anything as, quite simply, there is no force involved. Offering a completely optional, non gameplay affecting, reward for doing something is in no way a means of forcing people to do that something.
Technically speaking, force may not be the most accurate term to use. However, what would you call it when the supposed “encouragement” is nothing more than strangling the available options?
IMO, the new dailies suck for several reasons:
1) Newbies cannot do them. There is generally only one daily that can be done by a newbie without resorting to PvP/WvW, and characters below level 18 and 22 will not be able to see the PvP/WvW icons or know to go to Lion’s Arch.
2) What was previously a system that encouraged to enjoy parts of the game you normally wouldn’t, is now a grind, because you have to do certain things in certain places. To put this more simply, watching ten vistas anywhere would’ve been more fun than watching one vista in a specific map. At the moment, it feels like nothing more than a sink for a bit of silver from waypointing around.
3) They have added yet more psuedo-loot – rewards that were already part of the game but were changed from automatic to now requiring you to click things. Just what we needed, more junk on our already overflowing characters and banks. In theory, this lets us use the experience and other rewards on any character, but in reality the boost that it gives is way too low to matter.
I personally used dailies as a form of map completion incentive. I would go where I wanted to go and do what I wanted to do, while completing them.
Overall, I see the new daily system as just like every other system Anet has implemted: Very good idea on paper and very poor implementation. Just like everything else, such as megaserver and world boss timers, they seem to’ve stopped development on the feature about halfway through and released an unfinished product that did not have the thought and polish of a proper QA team or any actual players.
Please stop making “paper” changes. It is hurting the game’s presentation because we keep ending up with these complex interlocking systems that don’t quite want to snap into place and become an actual thing.
Newbies get different dailies than we do. For example, when the daily was Iron Marches events, my wife’s new account got Queensdale events.
That is another reason to un"improve" the dailies back to how they were before. You can no longer work on the same dailies, then while you may be able to help others with them, you can no longer get them at the same time in those situations.
As someone who wants to someday max out my daily AP, I find that the new dailies give me a ton more choice. Because it’s incredibly easy to complete 3 in under 10 mins. I can then use the rest of my gaming time doing whatever I want, rather than spending 1-2 hours ticking off boxes.
Now, you may say that it’s my choice to want to max out AP, and if I didn’t want to… I could’ve just done whatever I liked and got my daily anyway. Perhaps… except, the new system takes that into account too. All your former daily rewards are now log-in rewards… the only thing you get from completing 3 dailies is the 10 AP. So really, if you’re not interested in AP, you are now completely free from ever having to do dailies ever again. Which gives you more choice.
The problem is not the new system. The problem is that all the players have gotten into the habit of having to do dailies, and can’t get themselves out of that habit. The choice to do whatever you want in game is there. You just have to make it, rather than blindly doing dailies.
The problem, is in fact, the lack of choice for the players. And as far as “having” to do the dailies, I had no problem with that, if I chose to do more dailies, I received more of an award than other times, as more people who chose to do more dailies than I did received more of an award in APs than I did. I am fine with that, that should be how it works. They put themselves into that habit, not Anet. That was their choice to make. This all or nothing approach with the dailies takes just one more choice away from the player. And yes, limiting available options is removing choice.
As someone who wants to someday max out my daily AP, I find that the new dailies give me a ton more choice. Because it’s incredibly easy to complete 3 in under 10 mins. I can then use the rest of my gaming time doing whatever I want, rather than spending 1-2 hours ticking off boxes.
Now, you may say that it’s my choice to want to max out AP, and if I didn’t want to… I could’ve just done whatever I liked and got my daily anyway. Perhaps… except, the new system takes that into account too. All your former daily rewards are now log-in rewards… the only thing you get from completing 3 dailies is the 10 AP. So really, if you’re not interested in AP, you are now completely free from ever having to do dailies ever again. Which gives you more choice.
The problem is not the new system. The problem is that all the players have gotten into the habit of having to do dailies, and can’t get themselves out of that habit. The choice to do whatever you want in game is there. You just have to make it, rather than blindly doing dailies.
Okay, so… as I’ve tried to explain, repeatedly, I’m protesting the culling of the number of dailies available for my game mode. Having more options to complete those three dailies for those ten points would NOT affect you in any way, would it? Can someone help me phrase this better? I feel like I must be spewing gibberish, at this point.
You are expressing it fine, the problem is that some people either refuse to see what is in front of their face, or their brain is seeing it as “this entire system sucks change it back” when you post anything even close to saying it isn’t perfect as is.
This is the problem I have with this argument and my problem with the argument hasn’t changed.
The reward you’re not getting that you would have got before is achievement points on which there is a cap.
That is to say, if you keep doing only the days you want, you’ll end up with the same achievement points eventually. Even if you skip a day, it’s unlikely in the old system, you’d have gotten ten points in a day. So it would probably cover two days worth. You can afford to skip every other day in the new system to be rewarded more than you were in the old system.
Most of the problem here is a matter of perception.
I’ll agree with the last sentence, though not necessarily with the rest of your thoughts.
The only players who’d even have the cap on their radar are those chasing the top of the leader boards. What’s more likely is that players who don’t give a fig about the boards do care about their next reward chest.
I’d think most people would be happy to have the higher rate. You make a fair point about absolute gain versus the old system (i.e., you can afford to miss a day and get the same number of AP as you got if you did minimum completion). However, I don’t think comparative progression is the root of the issue for some people.
Under the old system, if peoples’ preferences meant they only did three tasks that day, they got 3 AP. They made some progress. Complaints about dungeon dailies or the PvP mode dailies were rare (at least from the solo PvE players). I think the root of the complaints is the impact of the changes on a daily sense of progressing towards short term goals. The new system is not one that gets you 0 to 10 AP, it’s 0 or 10 AP. Partial completion nets no AP. If you opt out of two of the PvE options, no progress. I think that’s a big motivational factor that plays into the complaints about lack of choice in dailies.
There’s still more freedom, not less, if you can skip two days and only do 3 dailies on one. That’s where the perception comes in.
I don’t ever have to do dailies again, unless I want the specific rewards (which we never had before), or AP, which some people care about but many don’t.
As for the cap, it doesn’t matter, as I said. If you’re playign the game long term, you’ll eventually get it. There’s no longer a race. It’s just not that vital.
There are two people that seem to be trying to derail the thread by trying to switch it to how fast people acquire resources and now legendaries (btw the root of that evil is precursors…)…
That’s not true. While precursor prices have risen, that’s more a response to an increase in the availability of gold. It’s not like there are fewer precursors dropping now than a year ago.
The whole premise of this thread is that there are options being taken away from PvE players, when the only reward for dailies is AP, something that is abundant in PvE relative to the other game modes. I think the availability of the singular reward which is apparently forcing PvE players to grind painful events or travel begrudgingly outside their comfort zones is extremely relevant to a conversation about PvE players having choices in what content they want to do.
And, like I said in my original posting, the change to dailies is merely the impetus to having this discussion. There is a larger picture, here. I also object to your assertion that the way to bring PvE in line with PvP and WvW as game modes is to make a more restrictive game for PvE. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you- I genuinely do not know.
But if the shift in philosophy to fewer choices was meant to balance things out for the other game modes, it has sorely failed in many ways. There’s no reward track for the personal story in PvP yet. Most of trait acquisition is located outside of WvW, and none of it is in PvP.
Do you genuinely feel as if PvE needs fewer choices to be in line with WvW/PvP? I am just really struggling with what people are even defending, at this point. Are you saying that there hasn’t been a distinct trend toward a more rigid structure to the GW2 PvE experience in the last year?
Wow, that’s not at all what I said. I didn’t say PvE needs fewer choices. I said PvE is over-rewarded in almost all currencies in the game, and the rewards would need to be toned down to bring it in line with the other two modes.
There seems to be something which you glaze right over each time you respond. I’m not sure if you’re doing it intentionally, or if it’s a real oversight on your part. You keep talking about fewer “choices,” but what you really mean is fewer “rewards.” By that I mean, at least as far as the dailies are concerned, you are perfectly capable of doing every single thing you were doing prior to the change, and reaping the intrinsic rewards of those activities, though you wouldn’t be earning the AP. It is thus the reward that you’re chasing after, not necessarily the freedom to go do those activities.
When you consider that most if not all living story content is entirely PvE, and the PvE set of permanent achievements is also far more robust than that of PvP and WvW, should we really even have a PvE set in the daily? Isn’t PvE already over-rewarded in terms of AP relative to the other two?
The reward you’re not getting that you would have got before is achievement points on which there is a cap.
That is to say, if you keep doing only the days you want, you’ll end up with the same achievement points eventually.
Actually, for a great many people, likely a vast majority so big that the minority that’s left is insignificantly small, will never cap their daily AP. 15k is a huge amount, getting there before quitting the game for good is highly unlikely. So, getting AP faster means having had more of it before moving on, and as a result of that having unlocked more skins and and having had more time to actually run around in them.
Most of the problem here is a matter of perception.
Indeed, and if you perceive the cap of 15k to be some kind of balancing force that’s at all relevant, you’re staring at the sun.
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The conversation can continue IF each person participating will step back just a tad and make sure he or she is not slipping into insults. Making generalizations or sweeping statements about people with whom you disagree isn’t accurate, it’s not fair, it doesn’t aid the conversation, and it doesn’t, in any sense, prove your point.
Have something to say? Go ahead and make your point, but please do it in a respectful manner… even if you totally and completely disagree with the person posting above you. Disagree, by all means, but don’t be disagreeable.
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Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet
The reward you’re not getting that you would have got before is achievement points on which there is a cap.
That is to say, if you keep doing only the days you want, you’ll end up with the same achievement points eventually.
Actually, for a great many people, likely a vast majority so big that the minority that’s left is insignificantly small, will never cap their daily AP. 15k is a huge amount, getting there before quitting the game for good is highly unlikely. So, getting AP faster means having had more of it before moving on, and as a result of that having unlocked more skins and and having had more time to actually run around in them.
Most of the problem here is a matter of perception.
Indeed, and if you perceive the cap of 15k to be some kind of balancing force that’s at all relevant, you’re staring at the sun.
The question is what percentage of that majority cares enough that they don’t get those ten achievement points every other day (assuming they don’t because it’s not that hard TO get them).
Actually I think it’s a significantly small percentage of the playerbase that can’t get 3 dailies as they’re laid out now.
I too am primarily a PvE player.
I too find the trait changes to be a concern when it comes to player choice, variety, and so on.
I find the new daily system to be better for one, myself at least, desiring more choice in how I spend most of my play time. A system that allows me to complete the dailies more quickly leaves me with more choice in how to spend the majority of my play time while still pursuing daily rewards.
I would not argue that any of the changes are to, “force,” anything as, quite simply, there is no force involved. Offering a completely optional, non gameplay affecting, reward for doing something is in no way a means of forcing people to do that something.
Technically speaking, force may not be the most accurate term to use. However, what would you call it when the supposed “encouragement” is nothing more than strangling the available options?
There is no strangling of options. Players have more choices under the new system than the old.
Previously if you wanted laurels and AP you had to log in and do your dailies.
Now you can log in and do almost anything in the game.
Previously if you wanted laurels and AP you had to log in and do your dailies.
Now you can log in and do almost anything in the game.
I mean, unless you need the AP to save Wintersday from the evil Grentches.
. . . what do you mean wrong time period?!
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The less gold someone has access to, the more likely they are to purchase germs to supplement that gold.
People who can realistically buy gem store stuff from ingame cash are not a majority. At all. This is not a common thing, especially not being able to do it repeatedly. Few players play remotely enough every day to generate that amount of cash.
Also, for most of us we could do 1 extra hour at work and gain a multitude of the amount of gems than we could from a day spent making money ingame. There’s no real motivation to even try use gold.
The only people I see spend gold on gems are on reddit, here, and a few in TxS. The others do the odd gold-to-gems trade to fill up the last 100 or so (I think that’s actually the intention of the weird numbers, try drain gold, otherwise the numbers would be different), but otherwise just spend € when they want something.
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The less gold someone has access to, the more likely they are to purchase germs to supplement that gold.
People who can realistically buy gem store stuff from ingame cash are not a majority. At all. This is not a common thing, especially not being able to do it repeatedly. Few players play remotely enough every day to generate that amount of cash.
Also, for most of us we could do 1 extra hour at work and gain a multitude of the amount of gems than we could from a day spent making money ingame. There’s no real motivation to even try use gold.
The only people I see spend gold on gems are on reddit, here, and a few in TxS. The others do the odd gold-to-gems trade to fill up the last 100 or so (I think that’s actually the intention of the weird numbers, try drain gold, otherwise the numbers would be different), but otherwise just spend € when they want something.
Working as intended. The gem store funds the game. If everyone could easily buy stuff, even playing only a bit here and there, no one would need to buy gems, and the game wouldn’t be funded.
The idea is time = money. If you put the time in you can farm enough to buy stuff you want. If you don’t put the time in, you can put cash in and buy gems (which you can sell if you want to someone who has put the time in).
I’m not sure why anyone thinks it shouldn’t be this way.
The less gold someone has access to, the more likely they are to purchase germs to supplement that gold.
People who can realistically buy gem store stuff from ingame cash are not a majority. At all. This is not a common thing, especially not being able to do it repeatedly. Few players play remotely enough every day to generate that amount of cash.
Also, for most of us we could do 1 extra hour at work and gain a multitude of the amount of gems than we could from a day spent making money ingame. There’s no real motivation to even try use gold.
The only people I see spend gold on gems are on reddit, here, and a few in TxS. The others do the odd gold-to-gems trade to fill up the last 100 or so (I think that’s actually the intention of the weird numbers, try drain gold, otherwise the numbers would be different), but otherwise just spend € when they want something.
Working as intended. The gem store funds the game. If everyone could easily buy stuff, even playing only a bit here and there, no one would need to buy gems, and the game wouldn’t be funded.
The idea is time = money. If you put the time in you can farm enough to buy stuff you want. If you don’t put the time in, you can put cash in and buy gems (which you can sell if you want to someone who has put the time in).
I’m not sure why anyone thinks it shouldn’t be this way.
Because when you find a way to farm gold to get your gem store item, the farming spot gets nerfed.
The gold to gem price is ridiculous as well.
The less gold someone has access to, the more likely they are to purchase germs to supplement that gold.
People who can realistically buy gem store stuff from ingame cash are not a majority. At all. This is not a common thing, especially not being able to do it repeatedly. Few players play remotely enough every day to generate that amount of cash.
Also, for most of us we could do 1 extra hour at work and gain a multitude of the amount of gems than we could from a day spent making money ingame. There’s no real motivation to even try use gold.
The only people I see spend gold on gems are on reddit, here, and a few in TxS. The others do the odd gold-to-gems trade to fill up the last 100 or so (I think that’s actually the intention of the weird numbers, try drain gold, otherwise the numbers would be different), but otherwise just spend € when they want something.
Working as intended. The gem store funds the game. If everyone could easily buy stuff, even playing only a bit here and there, no one would need to buy gems, and the game wouldn’t be funded.
The idea is time = money. If you put the time in you can farm enough to buy stuff you want. If you don’t put the time in, you can put cash in and buy gems (which you can sell if you want to someone who has put the time in).
I’m not sure why anyone thinks it shouldn’t be this way.
Because when you find a way to farm gold to get your gem store item, the farming spot gets nerfed.
The gold to gem price is ridiculous as well.
I’ve never found that. Because I mix stuff up and don’t do the same thing over and over again, and somehow, I still make money. Imagine that.
The less gold someone has access to, the more likely they are to purchase germs to supplement that gold.
People who can realistically buy gem store stuff from ingame cash are not a majority. At all. This is not a common thing, especially not being able to do it repeatedly. Few players play remotely enough every day to generate that amount of cash.
Also, for most of us we could do 1 extra hour at work and gain a multitude of the amount of gems than we could from a day spent making money ingame. There’s no real motivation to even try use gold.
The only people I see spend gold on gems are on reddit, here, and a few in TxS. The others do the odd gold-to-gems trade to fill up the last 100 or so (I think that’s actually the intention of the weird numbers, try drain gold, otherwise the numbers would be different), but otherwise just spend € when they want something.
Working as intended. The gem store funds the game. If everyone could easily buy stuff, even playing only a bit here and there, no one would need to buy gems, and the game wouldn’t be funded.
The idea is time = money. If you put the time in you can farm enough to buy stuff you want. If you don’t put the time in, you can put cash in and buy gems (which you can sell if you want to someone who has put the time in).
I’m not sure why anyone thinks it shouldn’t be this way.
Because when you find a way to farm gold to get your gem store item, the farming spot gets nerfed.
The gold to gem price is ridiculous as well.
Farms get nerfed to keep the flow of new coin and items into the game within reason which keeps the in-game economy from destabilizing .
The exchange’s rates are driven entirely by players use of the exchange. If the difference in bought and sold gems is positive, the rate goes up, if it’s negative, the rate goes down. And to be fair, the cost of gems have been on a steady decline for the last month or so.
And as it’s been pointed out again and again, cash bought gems funds the game. Not campaigns and expansions like Guild Wars or subscriptions like Wildstar. So at no time did they ever consider that a large segment of players could buy anything and everything using in-game currency from the Gem Shop because that would be slashing their own throats, income wise.
So my suggestion is to either curb your desires to a reasonable level relative to the in-game currency you can generate or crack open your wallet and toss a few bucks their way. Because in this game TANSTAAFL.
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There is no strangling of options. Players have more choices under the new system than the old.
Actually I’ve found one particular option removed in terms of laurels. Previously when doing a monthly I would usually log on and blast through my personal choices quite quickly (12 JP, 100 events, X kills, 4 dailies) which would take a maximum of 4 days to achieve 14 laurels (10 monthly + 4 daily). I’m not into maximizing output but that would be enough for me. I have personal reasons that limit my ability to log on often.
Now in order to get at least 14 laurels I have to log on for 16 days rather than 4 (Day 2, 7, 9, and 16) which will take me 4 times as long for a similar reward and require that I be available for a minimum time for at least 16 days as opposed to within my free time during 4 days.
Personally this is a significant restriction.
There is no strangling of options. Players have more choices under the new system than the old.
Actually I’ve found one particular option removed in terms of laurels. Previously when doing a monthly I would usually log on and blast through my personal choices quite quickly (12 JP, 100 events, X kills, 4 dailies) which would take a maximum of 4 days to achieve 14 laurels (10 monthly + 4 daily). I’m not into maximizing output but that would be enough for me. I have personal reasons that limit my ability to log on often.
Now in order to get at least 14 laurels I have to log on for 16 days rather than 4 (Day 2, 7, 9, and 16) which will take me 4 times as long for a similar reward and require that I be available for a minimum time for at least 16 days as opposed to within my free time during 4 days.Personally this is a significant restriction.
I agree. For you that is a significant restriction. And it sucks and I can sympathize.
I don’t believe most players would be in the same boat, but it certainly doesn’t help those who are.
Increasing restrictiveness is not a part of “play as you like”.
Neither is what a lot of people seem to think the term encapsulates, along with the grind comment from the videos before release . . .
I mean, it’s already a pile of dolyak droppings since a lot of people (disruptive sorts) can’t “play as they like” by deliberately disrupting the game, or scream RL racial slurs all over map chat. And I, personally, can’t run around beheading charr and punting asura out of the zone just for being in my way on a jumping puzzle or for existing . . .
“Play as you like” never existed in the first place if we’re going to be completely serious about interpreting it.
This is just silly – we’re talking about having choices in how we play the game. Not being coerced into playing PvP, WvW, Fractals, Dungeons, Jumping Puzzles, or anything else that Anet is trying to force us to play. Please re-read.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
I haven’t felt compelled to do anything particular in PvE for a long time. I just do what I feel like.
Admittedly, I haven’t made a new toon since the trait revamp, and that is a horribly restrictive change I’ll agree. But only because, in one way or another, you do have to get your traits if you want a fully functional character.
But all of the rest is just perception, really. People feel compelled to do things, because they feel compelled to do things.
These changes were made because people felt compelled. Therefore Anet apparently feels that “feeling compelled” is a valid complaint.
Of course they also apparently aren’t shy about being the ones doing the compelling…
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
OK, I’ve been away for a wee bit to recharge the batteries, but i have a few things to say on this topic:
First, I don’t hate the new dailies *personally**. The reason why is because I was able to get the dailies fairly easy in the past and now just through the way I play. Since I play in multiple game modes with WvW being one of them, getting dailies is really easy for me. Add to that the number of level 80s and yeah, not a problem
That being said, I know where OP is coming from here and I agree. The level of choice for a new player/someone who only plays in one game mode over another is SEVERELY limited as compared to before.
Now although I can understand the argument that these are now strictly for AP and if you don’t care about it you don’t have to feel pressured to do them, it still doesn’t hold water when you look at it a bit closer. See, its not just about AP. If that were the case then you wouldn’t get specific rewards for each one. Furthermore I defy any player to sit there and tell me that the AP chest rewards didn’t/don’t matter to them. The constant bonuses to just gold and magic find alone are important let alone the skins that are only obtainable through this method. This makes people want to do the dailies and if they feel like they have to now travel out of their way to a map that they hate/haven’t opened yet in PvE just to get the daily done there is a problem.
Some nights I’d just log into Queensdale or Wayfarers or Ascalon and knock out my daily there. All 5 of them. No stressing about it, just did it. Now I am finding myself looking at the list and saying, “well I don’t want to do most/all of those so its a good thing I like to and know how to WvW/PvP”. This is a problem since it means that people that don’t like/know those modes are now possibly being forced into them just to get those AP knocked out or they are just opting to not bother with that aspect of the game. If people are not caring about AP, then what are they going to be left caring about to even log in?
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Melissa Koris – Engie – SF for Life!
I agree, with a lot of what people have said. For me some game modes have been give. Some much needed love, I’m looking at you PvP.
I’ve not been a fan of the updates this year over all. There have been things I have liked, but for me the changes have had a negative impact on my enjoyment of the game. I did like the new rewards for doing dailies and the log in rewards. But I don’t like having to go to specific maps to do my daily events or boss kill. As some one already said, 15 second lagfest that is FM, is not fun. I feel it needs refining, and once it has been it will be great. The same can be said with PvP, if you don’t have a warrior or what ever you can not do the daily. So that might mean you need to leave PvP to get your daily. I find this a bit rubbish. I also don’t like the NPE. Level locking weapon skills was just dumb. There really was no point to it at all. It’s not going to take some one a whole level to learn how to use a skill. The rewards for leveling where nice even if some where just a bunch of skill points that you should of have for the 7 levels you had already had. The chopping and changing of the PS was also a poor choice in my mind. But the. The store was poorly done form the get go. Not to mention the shoehorning of the Sylvari into every world changing event in the game. And with all the things coming to light in the LS, I’m surprised an angry mob hasn’t burnt the grove to the ground.
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There are two people that seem to be trying to derail the thread by trying to switch it to how fast people acquire resources and now legendaries (btw the root of that evil is precursors…)…
That’s not true. While precursor prices have risen, that’s more a response to an increase in the availability of gold. It’s not like there are fewer precursors dropping now than a year ago.
The whole premise of this thread is that there are options being taken away from PvE players, when the only reward for dailies is AP, something that is abundant in PvE relative to the other game modes. I think the availability of the singular reward which is apparently forcing PvE players to grind painful events or travel begrudgingly outside their comfort zones is extremely relevant to a conversation about PvE players having choices in what content they want to do.
And, like I said in my original posting, the change to dailies is merely the impetus to having this discussion. There is a larger picture, here. I also object to your assertion that the way to bring PvE in line with PvP and WvW as game modes is to make a more restrictive game for PvE. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you- I genuinely do not know.
But if the shift in philosophy to fewer choices was meant to balance things out for the other game modes, it has sorely failed in many ways. There’s no reward track for the personal story in PvP yet. Most of trait acquisition is located outside of WvW, and none of it is in PvP.
Do you genuinely feel as if PvE needs fewer choices to be in line with WvW/PvP? I am just really struggling with what people are even defending, at this point. Are you saying that there hasn’t been a distinct trend toward a more rigid structure to the GW2 PvE experience in the last year?
Wow, that’s not at all what I said. I didn’t say PvE needs fewer choices. I said PvE is over-rewarded in almost all currencies in the game, and the rewards would need to be toned down to bring it in line with the other two modes.
There seems to be something which you glaze right over each time you respond. I’m not sure if you’re doing it intentionally, or if it’s a real oversight on your part. You keep talking about fewer “choices,” but what you really mean is fewer “rewards.” By that I mean, at least as far as the dailies are concerned, you are perfectly capable of doing every single thing you were doing prior to the change, and reaping the intrinsic rewards of those activities, though you wouldn’t be earning the AP. It is thus the reward that you’re chasing after, not necessarily the freedom to go do those activities.
When you consider that most if not all living story content is entirely PvE, and the PvE set of permanent achievements is also far more robust than that of PvP and WvW, should we really even have a PvE set in the daily? Isn’t PvE already over-rewarded in terms of AP relative to the other two?
Thank you for responding in good faith, despite wondering if I’m being intentionally obtuse. I know what that’s like, and I am really not intentionally misunderstanding you. I think I follow what you’re saying now, and I still have an issue with it. Hopefully I can express it in a less frustrating manner. And it’s quite possibly a product of where I’m at with the game right now.
I don’t know if this is just me or not, but I cannot think of a single part of the game that I’d choose to play for the intrinsic rewards, with the possible exception of the Sanctum Sprint. So when you say that it’s not a matter of choice, it’s a matter of rewards, I see those as interchangeable. It is the choice in how my gaming time is rewarded. If my gaming time isn’t rewarded, then what is the point? There are very few things in-game that I find to be rewarding on their own merit. So it’s likely that I didn’t address this in your previous postings because it’s essentially the same issue, to me.
I agree that the game has long been set up so that PvE is more rewarding in terms of AP, in this example, but often other currencies as well. That’s part of my point. Most of the changes I’ve pointed out this year are tied heavily to the removal/restriction of previously available options. I simply do not buy into the idea that it’s fun to take away systems that were flexible and replace them with more rigid systems.
Is this a more accurate response to what you’re saying? I feel like we’re really close to understanding each other, even if we don’t necessarily agree.
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
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Because we can’t be angry about both?
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Because we can’t be angry about both?
Technically, before, you could only unlock your traits to use by paying gold to the trainer. Now, you can unlock them by either paying gold/SP or doing a task that costs you nothing but time.
So, technically, you have more choice now than before, as far as unlocking traits goes.
As well, there were 12 dailies to choose from before, and 12 dailies to choose from now. Same amount of choice on what dailies to do. As well, one can choose to get their 10 AP by never leaving PVP or WVW, while before they couldn’t always choose to do so.
There’s a difference between “less choice” and “making different choices”.
Unfortunately, this has been one of the typical, and incorrect, responses to everything about the dailies as well. I did the math before, from the actual options available and what you had to complete to get the chosen daily achievement, in regards to PvE which is what I play.
At the daily system before the one before this latest one, you had lets say 14 daily choice items to pick from 1 section, just PvE, just WvW, etc. , and had to do 5. I do not remember the exact total choices. But that ratio works out to approximately 35%. With the update before this one, you have the total choices available reduced to 10 within the chosen section, an increase in percentage of the total to 50%. With this last one, yes you only have to do 3, which most would say is less than 5. That is correct. But when you compare it to the available options of 4, some of which are not even reachable by some people on some of the days, the new percentage is 75%. So while it looks like you now have to do less, you have to actually complete a larger percentage of the available choices.
To those that are just saying, go to WvW or PvP, uhm, no. Just no. For whatever reason, that is not a choice to some of us. And many of you don’t even see that fighting for more choices applies to your part of the game as well, and would also benefit you, not hurt you. If the problem is limited choices in WvW and PvP, increase the available choices. Let the players decide what they want to do, and hold to the “play how you want to” idea.
Your math, or your memory, is off.
The system immediately previous did not have 10 dailies per section. PVE had 8 specifically to it, WvW had 2, and PvP had 2.
If you wanted to not leave PvE, you had to do 5/8 dailies to get daily completion, 5 AP. You had to do 8/8 dailies to get 8 AP. If you wanted 10 AP, you had to go into WvW or PvP.
So 8 AP, the max without leaving PvE, required 100% completion, some days requiring jumping puzzles, fractals, dungeons, personal story (sucks if you already completed it), or specific places, which meant you probably had to go out of your way unless your days included all those. It was impossible to get 10 AP in PvE. Daily completion, 5/8, would be 62.5% completion of the dailies.
Now, if you don’t want to leave PvE, you have 4 choices, but only 3 required. 75% completion needed for max rewards. That’s 10 AP. So to get max rewards, you need 25% less of the dailies completed to get the max possible AP rewards for PvE. It’s no possible to get 10 AP without going to WvW or PvP. The only place the requirement is “larger” is daily completion itself, but you get 2x the points for only 12.5% more “completion”.
However, speaking from the whole, you actually have 12 choices either way which you can use to get AP, and you only need 3 of them, as opposed to 10 for the same AP rewards. Whether or not one refuses to do WvW or PvP does not invalidate the fact that the choices are there. I cannot say that the only way I can get dungeon skins is to go into dungeons when I could also do PvP just because I don’t like PvP.
This is especially since at least three of the current rotation of WvW dailies are actually super easy for PvE players that probably won’t even result in them meeting other players. Master of Ruins requires no kills at all, just running to a spot on a map and sitting there for a minute. Land Claimer requires a kill of a single veteran and then standing there. Caravan Disruptor requires a kill of a single dolyak that isn’t even a veteran. In all cases, those are marked on your map so you know exactly where you can go, too.
However, speaking from the whole, you actually have 12 choices either way which you can use to get AP, and you only need 3 of them, as opposed to 10 for the same AP rewards. Whether or not one refuses to do WvW or PvP does not invalidate the fact that the choices are there. I cannot say that the only way I can get dungeon skins is to go into dungeons when I could also do PvP just because I don’t like PvP.
We previously had plenty of choices to complete “straight PvE” Achievements (i.e. maps / hearts not dungeons, fractals etc.) We currently don’t have a way to do that at all.
This is especially since at least three of the current rotation of WvW dailies are actually super easy for PvE players that probably won’t even result in them meeting other players. Master of Ruins requires no kills at all, just running to a spot on a map and sitting there for a minute. Land Claimer requires a kill of a single veteran and then standing there. Caravan Disruptor requires a kill of a single dolyak that isn’t even a veteran. In all cases, those are marked on your map so you know exactly where you can go, too.
It doesn’t matter that you believe they are “super easy”, some people dislike the idea of there being a chance of going into an area only to be ganked by one or more other players. It is Anet trying to force us to do something we don’t want to do in order to get the same rewards we used to get that is the issue.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
We previously had plenty of choices to complete “straight PvE” Achievements (i.e. maps / hearts not dungeons, fractals etc.) We currently don’t have a way to do that at all.
You had zero choices to complete straight PVE achievements for 10 AP, though. PvE also still has far more choices in how to gain AP through other methods, like jumping puzzles, dungeons, world bosses, etc.
WvW has… play lots of WvW. And I mean lots.
The game is still heavily biased towards giving PvE players the best rewards.
It doesn’t matter that you believe they are “super easy”, some people dislike the idea of there being a chance of going into an area only to be ganked by one or more other players. It is Anet trying to force us to do something we don’t want to do in order to get the same rewards we used to get that is the issue.
You’re right, it doesn’t matter that I believe they’re super easy, because they are, in fact, super easy. The Dolyak one bears practically a 0% chance of running into an opposing player because you can look at the camps where they spawn from spots where you’re invincible. See someone there? Wait until they’re gone.
And again, you’re not being forced to do anything. You have the choice. If you choose to ignore super easy dailies because it’s not something you want to do, that does not invalidate the fact that the choice is there.
Why weren’t you campaigning for choice when, under the previous system, PvE frequently was a must to get even 10 AP? WvW players and PvP players didn’t have a choice if they wanted 10 AP. Did you have a problem with that? Why aren’t you campaigning now for WvW and PvP to get even more achievements, on scale with PvE, so that they can choose their play style to get equal rewards?
@Guhracie:
See, here’s the thing. The dailies for all three modes follow a similar pattern, with PvP probably being slightly more convenient for one-mode-only players. Take today’s for example:
PvE:
Activity Participation > Quick & Easy
Krytan Lumberer > Quick & Easy
Metrica Event Completer > Potentially time consuming
Frozen Maw > Potentially time consuming
WvW:
Master of Ruins > Quick and Easy
Land Claimer > Quick and Easy
Camp Capturer > Potentially time consuming
Tower Capturer > Potentially time consuming
PvP:
50 Rank Points > Quick and Easy
Point Defender > Quick and Easy
Guardian Winner > Potentially time consuming
Engineer Winner > Potentially time consuming (This one is especially time consuming for me as I’m terrible with engineer lol)
It’s not like PvE has been dealt some sort of unfair hand here. Players are being encouraged to experience different content all across the board here, and that’s good for the game.
Think back to the dailies of old. Were you encouraged to explore different game modes? No not really. Were you encouraged to explore new content within your preferred game mode? No not really. What were the old dailies actually accomplishing? What purpose did they serve? At most they were an incentive to log in, locked behind mundane, grindish content (kill 50 ambients???). That’s been turned into a login reward now, without the grind, leaving AP the only incentive for those who want to do the daily.
And let’s be frank here. It’s not choice that you’ve “lost,” it’s rewards. The two are not the same, and you have options for getting those rewards, and more. The path to them is just slightly different. With 2 of the dailies always being easy in each section, you really should be able to pop into a different mode for 2 minutes to get your third and earn yourself double what you were probably earning before in terms of rewards. It really is that easy. I guarantee that the it takes you a fraction of the time it to complete the dailies today than it did before the patch if you’re willing to branch out for just a few minutes a day. But if even that is too much, you can do it every other day instead, and still be up to par with what you had before.
It’s hard to empathize with PvE only players complaining that they have been somehow displaced by the changes when all that’s required of them to make them even better off than they were before is a few minutes of travel time.
The conversation can continue IF each person participating will step back just a tad and make sure he or she is not slipping into insults. Making generalizations or sweeping statements about people with whom you disagree isn’t accurate, it’s not fair, it doesn’t aid the conversation, and it doesn’t, in any sense, prove your point.
Have something to say? Go ahead and make your point, but please do it in a respectful manner… even if you totally and completely disagree with the person posting above you. Disagree, by all means, but don’t be disagreeable.
Thanks for understanding.
Put up a poll on this issue.
Be sure to also poll the players on whether or not they feel you and Anet in general are responsive to their concerns :/
Therefore, in order to create equilibrium and keep prices fair for other game modes, PvE needs to be brought down to the level of PvP and WvW in terms of rewards.
No. Equality doesn’t need to mean making everyone equally miserable. If you find a game mode lacking in something, by all means argue for that situation to be improved. Do not claim however, that if you can’t have something, then the only solution is to have that thing taken away from the person next to you.
It’s not a real world where we do need to share a finite number of resources, after all. Here, in the game, giving stuff to people does not require taking it from others.
Take today’s for example:
PvE:
Activity Participation > Quick & Easy
Krytan Lumberer > Quick & Easy
Metrica Event Completer > Potentially time consuming
Frozen Maw > Potentially time consuming
Take yesterday’s then – double Fractals, Brisban Events and Maguuma Jungle Miner. Or any day where world boss daily requires waiting for 3 hours if you logged at the wrong time.
Then tell me it’s all nice and equal.
(Also, notice how no WvW daily set requires you to change zones even once.)
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Perfect example of less choice: Merry Christmas PvE Players, you can today do Fractals or you can do Fractals if you only do PvE for your daily AP. Cos TWO CHOICES FOR PVE TODAY, CHRISTMAS DAY, ARE FRACTALS!
While that is a bit odd, it also means you can get both those dailies for doing only one thing.
And —>Point
-->Your HeadThis is a perfect example of restricted choice, the whole reason behind this thread. It’s not a feature. This is ANet trying to force people to do moldy old content many people have no interest in doing to inflate metrics and say ‘see? see? people play all our content!’
I agree with this, There are only 3 PvE dailies today and one of them is fractals. Frankly I take issue with that, even though I personally got my daily in WvW today.
This is wrong. You can’t expect people who PvE to do fractals. You need 3 that are attainable each day without grouping.
In a way, I think this is the point of the new dailies. It’s a way to get people to branch out and do stuff they normally wouldn’t do. People that solely play open world pvp are now more inclined to try out WvW, SPvP and/or dungeons.
Do you have any support (as in hard data) to back up this claim? Why is it more likely people will do this other content in response to being essentially forced to do so? Is it not also possible it will simply irritate people into not participating, or even simply quitting the game?
Why weren’t you campaigning for choice when, under the previous system, PvE frequently was a must to get even 10 AP?
The OP is about less open-world PvE choice. That is what I’m responding to here. And I said nothing about getting 10 AP so I’m not sure why you are directing that question to me.
Was it fair that there were less choices for players that preferred PvP, WvW or other more specific content? No. And if a person who liked that content started a campaign to have more choice I would have supported that idea as long as it didn’t take away from my choices which is what was done with these new Dailies.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
The ‘perceived’ lack of choice was more apparent in yesterday’s daily. Two out of the four PvE dailies were for Fractals. If you don’t Fractal (or PvP or WvW) then you’re screwed. No daily for you.
This is the problem I have with this argument and my problem with the argument hasn’t changed.
The reward you’re not getting that you would have got before is achievement points on which there is a cap.
That is to say, if you keep doing only the days you want, you’ll end up with the same achievement points eventually. Even if you skip a day, it’s unlikely in the old system, you’d have gotten ten points in a day. So it would probably cover two days worth. You can afford to skip every other day in the new system to be rewarded more than you were in the old system.
Most of the problem here is a matter of perception.
Wow – not a finer example of word-twisting and point-skewing is to be found in this thread. Still somehow with that faint whiff of whiteknightism.
The bottom line here is you missed the point entirely. Yet again you’ve gone off on your own tangent and completely used my quote as a basis for nothing relevant whatsoever.
Just so you know, I wasn’t referring to AP’s… I was referring to the rewards that come with completion of the 4 PvE dailies that aren’t AP’s. I missed out on an extra chest of rewards because fractals aren’t my thing. Whose fault is that? Mine because I don’t like the content? Or is it because of the lack of choice (swinging back to the topic)?
Sure AP’s are nice (overall), but I’m not a hunter for those AP’s, and I favour something a bit more tangible for effort than a number.
The old-school Arrow-Key warrior.
“Obtaining a legendary should be done through legendary feats…
Not luck and credit cards.”
“Obtaining a legendary should be done through legendary feats…
Not luck and credit cards.”
Therefore, in order to create equilibrium and keep prices fair for other game modes, PvE needs to be brought down to the level of PvP and WvW in terms of rewards.
No. Equality doesn’t need to mean making everyone equally miserable. If you find a game mode lacking in something, by all means argue for that situation to be improved. Do not claim however, that if you can’t have something, then the only solution is to have that thing taken away from the person next to you.
It’s not a real world where we do need to share a finite number of resources, after all. Here, in the game, giving stuff to people does not require taking it from others.Take today’s for example:
PvE:
Activity Participation > Quick & Easy
Krytan Lumberer > Quick & Easy
Metrica Event Completer > Potentially time consuming
Frozen Maw > Potentially time consumingTake yesterday’s then – double Fractals, Brisban Events and Maguuma Jungle Miner. Or any day where world boss daily requires waiting for 3 hours if you logged at the wrong time.
Then tell me it’s all nice and equal.(Also, notice how no WvW daily set requires you to change zones even once.)
Okay, two points here. First of all, one of the fractal events was “finish 1 fractal.” That takes less than 5 minutes. That you choose not to do that is another point altogether.
And second of all, WvW zones are identical, with each server having control of a different section of each map. Just because the daily doesn’t say "Take a keep in “red borderland” doesn’t mean people don’t have to change zones to take a keep. You can, for example, flip sentries and camps safely on your own borderland, but have to switch to an enemy borderland to take a keep, as your server might own all of theirs.
Furthermore, world bosses and such in pve are on a timer. Yes, you might have to wait to do them, or your timing might conflict, but they’re predictable, and if you want to do them, you can. This is not the same as the “Take a keep” option in WvW. There’s no timer. There is no way to tell outside of playing for long periods of time when your server may attempt to take a keep. There’s no way to tell if they will attempt it at all. And if they do, there’s no way to tell it will be successful. And then there’s the opposite scenario. It’s also possible that your server is dominating and there are no keeps to take!
Just so you know, I wasn’t referring to AP’s… I was referring to the rewards that come with completion of the 4 PvE dailies that aren’t AP’s. I missed out on an extra chest of rewards because fractals aren’t my thing. Whose fault is that? Mine because I don’t like the content? Or is it because of the lack of choice (swinging back to the topic)?
But even with added choices , let’s say they added daily reviver and daily condition applier with their own small reward chest, you’d still not get the fractal daily reward chest because it is tied to that specific daily.
So even with more choice, you still wouldn’t get the reward that is tied to the content you dislike.
Not sure if i misunderstood what you meant so sorry if i did.
There is no strangling of options. Players have more choices under the new system than the old.
Actually I’ve found one particular option removed in terms of laurels. Previously when doing a monthly I would usually log on and blast through my personal choices quite quickly (12 JP, 100 events, X kills, 4 dailies) which would take a maximum of 4 days to achieve 14 laurels (10 monthly + 4 daily). I’m not into maximizing output but that would be enough for me. I have personal reasons that limit my ability to log on often.
Now in order to get at least 14 laurels I have to log on for 16 days rather than 4 (Day 2, 7, 9, and 16) which will take me 4 times as long for a similar reward and require that I be available for a minimum time for at least 16 days as opposed to within my free time during 4 days.Personally this is a significant restriction.
Understood, but that can also be expressed as 15 seconds per day x 16 = 4 minutes total vs how many hours per day for those 4 days ?
Dont get me wrong, I get that we all have different play styles and schedules. The point I was making in the post you quoted was that there are now more choices in how to earn the actual rewards. I dont doubt that some individuals might find that some choices are slower/faster than others.
Increasing restrictiveness is not a part of “play as you like”.
Neither is what a lot of people seem to think the term encapsulates, along with the grind comment from the videos before release . . .
I mean, it’s already a pile of dolyak droppings since a lot of people (disruptive sorts) can’t “play as they like” by deliberately disrupting the game, or scream RL racial slurs all over map chat. And I, personally, can’t run around beheading charr and punting asura out of the zone just for being in my way on a jumping puzzle or for existing . . .
“Play as you like” never existed in the first place if we’re going to be completely serious about interpreting it.
This is just silly – we’re talking about having choices in how we play the game. Not being coerced into playing PvP, WvW, Fractals, Dungeons, Jumping Puzzles, or anything else that Anet is trying to force us to play. Please re-read.
Did I say anything about that in my post? Please re-read.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Increasing restrictiveness is not a part of “play as you like”.
Neither is what a lot of people seem to think the term encapsulates, along with the grind comment from the videos before release . . .
I mean, it’s already a pile of dolyak droppings since a lot of people (disruptive sorts) can’t “play as they like” by deliberately disrupting the game, or scream RL racial slurs all over map chat. And I, personally, can’t run around beheading charr and punting asura out of the zone just for being in my way on a jumping puzzle or for existing . . .
“Play as you like” never existed in the first place if we’re going to be completely serious about interpreting it.
This is just silly – we’re talking about having choices in how we play the game. Not being coerced into playing PvP, WvW, Fractals, Dungeons, Jumping Puzzles, or anything else that Anet is trying to force us to play. Please re-read.
Did I say anything about that in my post? Please re-read.
I’m talking about what we mean, not what you mean…
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
Increasing restrictiveness is not a part of “play as you like”.
Neither is what a lot of people seem to think the term encapsulates, along with the grind comment from the videos before release . . .
I mean, it’s already a pile of dolyak droppings since a lot of people (disruptive sorts) can’t “play as they like” by deliberately disrupting the game, or scream RL racial slurs all over map chat. And I, personally, can’t run around beheading charr and punting asura out of the zone just for being in my way on a jumping puzzle or for existing . . .
“Play as you like” never existed in the first place if we’re going to be completely serious about interpreting it.
This is just silly – we’re talking about having choices in how we play the game. Not being coerced into playing PvP, WvW, Fractals, Dungeons, Jumping Puzzles, or anything else that Anet is trying to force us to play. Please re-read.
Did I say anything about that in my post? Please re-read.
I’m talking about what we mean, not what you mean…
I don’t think you know what I meant, or mean.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.