Guild Wars 2

Nick.6972:

Here’s wondering what were to happen if they were to replace word Raids with Elite Missions.

People will be much less opposed, simply because “elite mission” sounds more guild wars and less WoW than “Raids”.

Packaging and communications are important. Especially on that matter.

NoTrigger.8396:

a raid isnt “jump in, zerg it down, get the reward”
a raid needs planning, an organized and coordinated group of players, skilled players, tactics and lots of other stuff that would be just too complex for open world events.
it should take top guilds weeks to kill a boss for the first time. not a few hours or 3 days.

This, all day.

The issue with GW2 raids will be that players have been groomed in a way that they will be resistant a level of difficulty and required teamwork necessary to deliver best-in-class raid encounters.

NoTrigger.8396

people like you are the reason why gw2 has become so stale and boring

mind explaining what
-gear grind
-having dedicated healers and tanks (trinity)
-grinding reputation
has to do with raids?

i do hope the mods will do a good job and keep the raid cdi clean from the anti-raid faction

I couldn’t disagree with this last sentence more. The “anti-raid faction” has just as much a right to be heard in the upcoming CDI as the people who want raid content, providing both sides keep it courteous as Chris required.

joe.7684:

NoTrigger.8396

people like you are the reason why gw2 has become so stale and boring

mind explaining what
-gear grind
-having dedicated healers and tanks (trinity)
-grinding reputation
has to do with raids?

i do hope the mods will do a good job and keep the raid cdi clean from the anti-raid faction

I couldn’t disagree with this last sentence more. The “anti-raid faction” has just as much a right to be heard in the upcoming CDI as the people who want raid content, providing both sides keep it courteous as Chris required.

If we could agree on a definition of what a raid is in GW2, that would be great to begin with.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And a sidenote – I love how, it’s three pages in and already there are people mentioning “leeching” and so forth.

If you want to know my biggest objection to raids? This is why. That attitude? Don’t want it stinking up the game any more than it already does. Hard content which is punishingly difficult so “the filthy casual leechers” don’t take part? Fine with it, I just won’t do it.

But the thought of someone desiring a part of the game specifically to exclude other players? No. Thank. You.

This is precisely why I’m wary of proposals for raids and all such similar content. There’s enough division and animosity already between so-called “hardcores” and “casuals” already without adding more.

VodCom.6924:

joe.7684:

NoTrigger.8396

people like you are the reason why gw2 has become so stale and boring

mind explaining what
-gear grind
-having dedicated healers and tanks (trinity)
-grinding reputation
has to do with raids?

i do hope the mods will do a good job and keep the raid cdi clean from the anti-raid faction

I couldn’t disagree with this last sentence more. The “anti-raid faction” has just as much a right to be heard in the upcoming CDI as the people who want raid content, providing both sides keep it courteous as Chris required.

If we could agree on a definition of what a raid is in GW2, that would be great to begin with.

You had a good point just now when you suggested that a significant part of the problem is terminology. We had two “elite missions” in GW1/Factions – Urgoz’s Warren and the Deep, the Domain of Anguish in GW1/Nightfall, and the Underworld and Fissure of Woe in GW1/Prophecies – and nobody ever complained about those. Oh yeah, and Slaver’s Exile in Eye of the North – I still shudder when I think about that one; for most people the only way to complete it was to hire runners to defeat the end boss Duncan the Black, who was insanely tough. What were those but GW1 versions of what, in other games, are called raids? And I spent a lot of time on those missions, not least so I could get a particularly nice set of Fissure of Woe armor.

If these “raids” – but let’s call them “elite missions” or “elite areas” instead – are structured like the above were in GW1, I don’t necessarily see a problem in principle. The key is that they need to be inclusive rather than exclusionary.

maha.7902:

People are against instanced raids because it means they actually have to work together with people, not leech and actually do their part. They just want to do their thing and not give a **** about anyone else, and therefore because of this, nobody deserves instanced raids because how dare others expect me to pull my weight.

And that is the perfect example of the reason why i don’t want raids in this game. Because of the attitute they bring with them.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the thought of someone desiring a part of the game specifically to exclude other players? No. Thank. You.

Exactly this. I don’t want mechanics that intentionally separate the players, but even more i don’t want the people that think such mechanics are a good idea. I started playing gw2 specifically to avoid those things.

VodCom.6924:

Nick.6972:

Here’s wondering what were to happen if they were to replace word Raids with Elite Missions.

People will be much less opposed, simply because “elite mission” sounds more guild wars and less WoW than “Raids”.

Packaging and communications are important. Especially on that matter.

Agreed. Perception is part of the problem here (yes, on both sides). Additionally, avoiding the term “raid” will mean far less people will get mentally locked into preconceptions taken from WoW raiding design.

Astralporing.1957:

Additionally, avoiding the term “raid” will mean far less people will get mentally locked into preconceptions taken from WoW raiding design.

But that familiarity is what would draw players to the game in the first place. It’s no mistake ArenaNet is using the word “raid.”

Zeldain.5710:

Astralporing.1957:

Additionally, avoiding the term “raid” will mean far less people will get mentally locked into preconceptions taken from WoW raiding design.

But that familiarity is what would draw players to the game in the first place. It’s no mistake ArenaNet is using the word “raid.”

Part of the GW2 hype pre-launch was based on the assumption that GW2 would not be like your familiar MMO.

However you have a point when you say : It’s no mistake ArenaNet is using the word “raid.”

Im saving the bulk of what I would like to see for the actual CDI, but I wanted to respond here regarding what people are saying about the definition of a raid – and to briefly mention what I dont want to see in raids in GW2.

I raided hardcore in WoW (4-7 nights a week leading both 10 and 25 player groups in progression level content) for close to six years. I know how most MMOs define raids.

That doesn’t mean that has to be the definition in GW2. What I want is a fun experience for groups larger than 10 players that encourages teamwork and communication. Yes, I want some more complicated mechanics, but not to the point of being overly exclusionary. The idea of a small percentage of players enjoying for a few months before everyone else really can is toxic to a community and really goes against what GW2 is.

The things I do not want to see:

- I dont want raiding to become the primary end game of GW2. It should be another fun activity, such as guild missions, living story, minidungeons, etc, that guilds (or any group) can tackle together. It should be part of the endgame picture without taking over the way it has in other MMOs.

- I definitely dont want set number requirements (10, 20 man raids) that mean groups have to leave people out. That is the #1 reason I stopped leading raids in WoW (main reason I left actually). IMO, raids have to scale to fit the group size.

- I dont want large group content designed, difficulty wise, for top performers. It causes raiding to become exclusionary and creates the elitist atmospheres you see in other games. I think “hardcore” content should be primarily designed at the 1 person (improve on the Liadri model as a base) and 5 person (improve on Aetherblade Retreat as a base) levels. Raiding should be designed with players at all skill levels in mind.

Regarding instancing, I will go into more detail about my thoughts in the CDI, but I think, with the current map instancing system they have (and can control, ala keeping guilds together during missions), I think they can/should do both – simply create an interface (similar to the custom pvp interface) that gives the guild leader (or player, if they can figure out the right prereqs) the ability to make a particular map guild only or open to the public (and potentially uses permissions/invite functionality we see at the bottom of the custom spvp interface). Then, again similar to the custom pvp system, members open their own interface and join the map (or use the right click “join friend in” system) to get on the map.

A little about what I do want to see:

Again, I will go into more detail in the CDI, but my vision of raiding in GW2 is really just large group organized fun. I see that being something like the Marionette, a modified Tower of Nightmares, the Breachmaker or even the Ancient Karka (the first GW2 LS event – just without the lag) as a guild activity (again, with the leader designating either a public or guild only version of the map/instance). I think a well thought out raid system is how they can incorporate large scale world activities (like those I mention above) back into the living world release model – and then keep them alive afterwards. Note that I do believe these should be scaled down to groups starting at 10 and then scaling up to 150.

Most importantly, I realize this is my opinion and that it differs from others. When this conversation begins in earnest during the CDI, it is important we all remember and respect that, regardless of what you feel raiding should be.

(first of all – sorry for my english, this is not my native language)

Let’s make small analysis of the core of this task, it is important to understand the topic to answer on main questions:

What is the raid?
The raid is a type of group content, that can be repeated many times.

What is the purpose of the raid? (Main goal)
From developers point of view: to fill the gap between the speed of content development and the speed of content consumption. The facts is – the consumption is around 100-500 times faster. If repetitive content will be good enough – players will be happy and will not leave from the game and can continue to give some money to developers.
From players point of view: fun and reward when achieving the target. The target can be different “1st kill of boss in the world”, “our guild is better than other guild”, “personal gear treadmill”, “want to look on the last boss”, etc. Rewards also can be different. The longevity/strength of targets/rewards is very different. The target can be achieved only with the group. In case of no target – longevity will be very limited. The fun in the raid is not enough to repeat the content. This is the most important/hard question in the game – what type of reward will be enough for player?

Very important side effect of the raid – the raid is required some sort of organisation. People start to talk each other to achieve the target (to kill the enemy for example). It may dramatically improve the socialization. The good socialization itself may keep players in the game, because players may become a friends. Guild missions was good but very 1st step. The longevity of guild missions is very limited because targets is weak – just some fun and 50silver. On 10 times already no fun because no target/reward.

Also important to have some challenge for the player. If in raid no any challenge – it will be very boring content.

Raid is a content anyway and developers have to spend time to create it. Best if players will create part/whole content by themself, the consumption will be very long (like minecraft).

What is the best form of the raid?
Considering all of the above – best raid is a some sort of sandbox with clear rules and targets. For example: WWW perma-battle; EVE-online.
It can be not a sandbox (like PvE WOW-raids), but then it requires very strong targets to keep players (gear treadmill) and the duration still limited.

Devs have to put good targets and players will play this content almost forever. Best idea was – to arrange tournament in WWW!

Conclusion
So, before create any type of raid (like standard 10-20 ppl dungeon) 1st should be found – the target, without good target – the longevity of any type of such content is very limited, and would not meet the main goal.

@Lich King.1524 @Blaeys.3102
Now this is something I like to read. Looking forward to see what you have to say in the upcoming CDI.

maha.7902:

Vayne.8563:

Jacobbs.9468:

Vayne.8563:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Good Evening,

A couple of things.

1: The next phase of the CDI will be delayed until this weekend or Monday due lack of available time on my part.
2: whilst I am very much looking forward to the raid discussion and chatting with you all about it I do want to make it clear that this last CDI has been excellent, with maturity and collaboration throughout. So to be clear unnecessary comments about ‘True Gamers’, ‘Elitists’ and ‘Dress Up Players’ won’t be tolerated.

I just want to make this clear so we can all have a healthy discussion and design out a Raid System proposal that is born out of GW2’s core mechanics, personality and community passion.

Looking forward to having a great discussion with you all.

Chris

Thanks for this. I really can’t stand people judging other people as “real” gamers, or carebears because they prefer one aspect of games to others. It’s demeaning and unnecessary.

Glad to see it won’t be tolerated in the raiding thread.

I strongly believe that the respect you speak of runs both ways. There are players that want some challenging, instanced raid content, but we just get called elitists and that’s that.

I’m in TTS, and we’ve been called elitists despite our open recruiting policy. We have a few simple rules to abide by: 1) rep when you do world events with us, 2) we ask that you get on TeamSpeak for Triple Trouble because of the nature of the fight (and we always explain everything for those that are joining us who are new – TS makes this much faster and easier) and 3) be nice to people. I don’t see how these rules make us elitist, but haters gunna hate.

Bottom line: the want for challenging content does not automatically mean that we want to exclude people from content in the game.

No one said you did. But elitism is a problem with a certain percentage of people who like hard content, not all people who like hard content. There are people out there who pretty much live to insult and put down other people.

It’s like PvPers. There are a lot of really nice PvPers. I know some of them. But there’s also a very vocal element of PvPers who will trash anyone who enters a match and does something wrong.

Now, it’s far less likely that that will happen with casual players in game. The calls of elitist tend to be a response to people who are telling us how bad we are.

But I don’t believe people who want hard content are elitists and I don’t think casual people can’t play the game.

And because of this miniscule minority of scumbags (for the record, it’s the actual elite in video games who despise the “elitist” tryhard zerk only ping gear cof p1 tryhards) we have this massive brick wall of opposition to raids.

I don’t see why the tryhards upset people so much, it’s actual comical and you should laugh in their face if they’re being kitteny to you because it’s hilarious and sad because actual good players generally don’t care who they party up with since they know they can massively pull their weight if need be and clear the content (if you’ve ever had someone who complained about player X in their group getting them killed I guarantee you there was a decision they could have made at that moment to keep themselves alive, absolutely 100% guarantee it).

Different people have different levels of sensitivity. A guy like me? I don’t care what anyone says. I have to like/respect someone before their opinion actually means something to me.

But people have all sorts of reactions to personal attacks…and there are reasons people have those reactions.

When raiding comes into a game, because it is supposed to be harder and more competitive, it brings out the worst in a percentage of the playerbase…probably a small percentage, but definite a vocal one.

If you’ve experienced personal attacks from that sector, of course you’re not going to want to see it in the game.

Astralporing.1957:

maha.7902:

People are against instanced raids because it means they actually have to work together with people, not leech and actually do their part. They just want to do their thing and not give a **** about anyone else, and therefore because of this, nobody deserves instanced raids because how dare others expect me to pull my weight.

And that is the perfect example of the reason why i don’t want raids in this game. Because of the attitute they bring with them.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the thought of someone desiring a part of the game specifically to exclude other players? No. Thank. You.

Exactly this. I don’t want mechanics that intentionally separate the players, but even more i don’t want the people that think such mechanics are a good idea. I started playing gw2 specifically to avoid those things.

VodCom.6924:

Nick.6972:

Here’s wondering what were to happen if they were to replace word Raids with Elite Missions.

People will be much less opposed, simply because “elite mission” sounds more guild wars and less WoW than “Raids”.

Packaging and communications are important. Especially on that matter.

Agreed. Perception is part of the problem here (yes, on both sides). Additionally, avoiding the term “raid” will mean far less people will get mentally locked into preconceptions taken from WoW raiding design.

I have read a lot of threads here about people not liking the idea of:

1. Joining guilds like TTS/Att for open world events
2. Getting on to a voice communication program to be aware of what to do
3. The whole idea that you have to be with a guild full stop to do these events

These people quite simply do not want to make any sort of effort while doing this content. The one valid excuse I have seen across all my months here is one person recently who said that having GW2 and TS on at the same time throws their frame rate in to the bin.

Every other person I’ve come across is just too antisocial to want to work together and wanted to just cobble together weak excuses for their stance when it’s quite simply “I don’t really like having to interact with others”. Which is fine. But why should these people hold back the rest of us who want new, fun group content which isn’t 500-man 111111111111111 zergs? Why is “but thurrrrr elithurrssssttssssss” such a widely accepted excuse? It’s literally a GW2 boogeyman at this point, the imaginary elitists making sure you all go to bed at the right time or they’ll pounce and scream for gear checks in your dungeon groups.

Astralporing.1957:

maha.7902:

People are against instanced raids because it means they actually have to work together with people, not leech and actually do their part. They just want to do their thing and not give a **** about anyone else, and therefore because of this, nobody deserves instanced raids because how dare others expect me to pull my weight.

And that is the perfect example of the reason why i don’t want raids in this game. Because of the attitute they bring with them.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the thought of someone desiring a part of the game specifically to exclude other players? No. Thank. You.

Exactly this. I don’t want mechanics that intentionally separate the players, but even more i don’t want the people that think such mechanics are a good idea. I started playing gw2 specifically to avoid those things.

VodCom.6924:

Nick.6972:

Here’s wondering what were to happen if they were to replace word Raids with Elite Missions.

People will be much less opposed, simply because “elite mission” sounds more guild wars and less WoW than “Raids”.

Packaging and communications are important. Especially on that matter.

Agreed. Perception is part of the problem here (yes, on both sides). Additionally, avoiding the term “raid” will mean far less people will get mentally locked into preconceptions taken from WoW raiding design.

PvP and WvW already separates the community so don’t even start up this drama.
We have seen plenty of attitude issues from playhowiwants at the beginning of the revamped Teq and Marionette fights. Thanks, but no more of that.
Instanced “elite missions” ftw.

You already can do raids. It’s called: join a hardcore WvW guild for PvP raids.

As for PvE, it’s pointless with AI mechanics in this game. Until they can simulate player behaviour in AI, it’ll remain as spam 1 and dodge red circles. There’s very few exceptions to this rule.

I would love to see a Liadri style boss permanently added to the game though

You mean the boss which is literally the epitome of spam 1 and dodge red circles?

Why is everyone so concerned with division between elitists and casuals? You realize fractals does the exact same thing you are concerned about with raids. Raids shouldn’t divide the community; it should bring members together in order to coordinate proper tactics.

VodCom.6924:

Zeldain.5710:

Astralporing.1957:

Additionally, avoiding the term “raid” will mean far less people will get mentally locked into preconceptions taken from WoW raiding design.

But that familiarity is what would draw players to the game in the first place. It’s no mistake ArenaNet is using the word “raid.”

Part of the GW2 hype pre-launch was based on the assumption that GW2 would not be like your familiar MMO.

However you have a point when you say : It’s no mistake ArenaNet is using the word “raid.”

Yeah .. this old article was one of the main reasons i started playing GW2
http://surlygamer.net/2012/06/05/raiding-sucks-why-guild-wars-2-doesnt-need-this-endgame/

I raided quite some time in EQ2 but i started to hatr it more and more after a while,
and also with the time i really was more and more annoyed to see how the items
in raids get more and more superior.

The last thing then was RIFT .. i really liked all the open world events but at level 50
you noticed that you only got crap for doing them, and of course all the good stuff
was only available in raids.

At that time i said to myself that i never ever would play an MMO with raid progression
and bought a lifetime abo for Champions Online, that i played till GW2 was released.

However i already saw that even SOE that started the whole raiding stuff with Everquest, already said there will be NO raids in EQNext.

In the end i only can hope that ANet would not hear to the people that want just
“exclusive” stuff and waste their time just to satisfy a small minority.

maha.7902:

You mean the boss which is literally the epitome of spam 1 and dodge red circles?

Man, I’m sure you’ll be surprised to see the amount of newbies that are ready and willing to turn up the microphone and get involved in group content.

Sure there is a vocal minority of entitled players that are bothering because they are jealous of people that have more shinies than they have.

Don’t just give up and assume only a minority is capable of getting kitten done.

FrownyClown.8402:

Why is everyone so concerned with division between elitists and casuals? You realize fractals does the exact same thing you are concerned about with raids. Raids shouldn’t divide the community; it should bring members together in order to coordinate proper tactics.

Perhaps it should, but if you look at this thread, you will notice that a lot of raid supporters want them to be exclusive, not inclusive.

If wanting people in group content to actually have to pull their weight means I’m being exclusive, then darn well right I’m being exclusive. Why should anyone ever be rewarded for lazing around, dying everywhere and then still getting the daily chest?

I disagree.

Women should be able to participate too in the entire of the game’s content. No exceptions.

Nothing should be for men only.

In any case, regardless of party size, what the game really needs is more risk of failure.

Wipe, and must start over.

Fail an event, and you wipe, and must start over.

Then bonus objectives that are harder to do at the same time and give bonus rewards when done.

VodCom.6924:

Part of the GW2 hype pre-launch was based on the assumption that GW2 would not be like your familiar MMO.

True, but part of the pre-launch “hype” was also that if you liked traditional MMOs you would really want to try Gw2. This is a pretty clear, IMO, implication that the intent was to provide for traditional MMO player interests.

Ashen.2907:

VodCom.6924:

Part of the GW2 hype pre-launch was based on the assumption that GW2 would not be like your familiar MMO.

True, but part of the pre-launch “hype” was also that if you liked traditional MMOs you would really want to try Gw2. This is a pretty clear, IMO, implication that the intent was to provide for traditional MMO player interests.

They have already achieved this. Just because one thing is similar to a traditional mmo does not mean it has become a traditional mmo. They should just make everyone a goat and we can fight over which grassland is the best to graze on. That isn’t traditional.

FrownyClown.8402:

They have already achieved this. Just because one thing is similar to a traditional mmo does not mean it has become a traditional mmo. They should just make everyone a goat and we can fight over which grassland is the best to graze on. That isn’t traditional.

No, all they’ve done so far is create a game for players that hate MMOs. The players that love MMOs have nothing here, and are waiting to see it materialize.

Zeldain.5710:

FrownyClown.8402:

They have already achieved this. Just because one thing is similar to a traditional mmo does not mean it has become a traditional mmo. They should just make everyone a goat and we can fight over which grassland is the best to graze on. That isn’t traditional.

No, all they’ve done so far is create a game for players that hate raids and endgame gear progression. The players that love raids and endgame gear progression have nothing here, and are waiting to see it materialize.

The modified statement above is, I believe, more representative of reality than the original.

IndigoSundown.5419:

No, all they’ve done so far is create a game for players that hate raids and endgame gear progression. The players that love raids and endgame gear progression have nothing here, and are waiting to see it materialize.

No, I was correct in my phrasing. It’s MMOs. Players that hate MMOs love GW2. They’ve never delivered on the promise for players who love MMOs.

So, that’s where raiding comes in. The game absolutely needs some form of large-scale organized cooperative PvE progression. If it’s raiding, then fine.

Tequatl and Triple Trouble are the raids in GW2.

uberkingkong.8041:

Tequatl and Triple Trouble are the raids in GW2.

tequatl and triple trouble are considered trash mobs in other games, or base population.

NoTrigger.8396:

uberkingkong.8041:

Tequatl and Triple Trouble are the raids in GW2.

tequatl and triple trouble are considered trash mobs in other games, or base population.

There’s no contradiction here. GW2 is GW2. Other games are other games.

Zeldain.5710:

IndigoSundown.5419:

No, all they’ve done so far is create a game for players that hate raids and endgame gear progression. The players that love raids and endgame gear progression have nothing here, and are waiting to see it materialize.

No, I was correct in my phrasing. It’s MMOs. Players that hate MMOs love GW2. They’ve never delivered on the promise for players who love MMOs.

So, that’s where raiding comes in. The game absolutely needs some form of large-scale organized cooperative PvE progression. If it’s raiding, then fine.

Sorry, no sale. MMO’s serve a lot of demographics, not just those who like “large scale, organized, cooperative PvE progression.” The more you make general statements like that, the less likely they are to be true.

All i can see in this thread is countless people saying they dont want raids because of selfish reasons. Its disgusting.

spoj.9672:

All i can see in this thread is countless people saying they dont want raids because of selfish reasons. Its disgusting.

Wanting one’s own way is always selfish. This includes wanting raids and wanting raids that have better rewards than those available elsewhere. If selfishness is “disgusting,” then all selfishness is disgusting.

I’m not one saying there should be no raids. However, posts like this are not the way to successfully make your case.

I’m not going to get too involved here since I have my posts for the CDI but I would like to point to :

Syndrilious.9632:

Syndrilious.9632:

I am 100% fine with end-game raids that are built for the hardcore player.

Under 1 condition:

They add no new “best in Stat” gear. Gear progression stops with Ascended/Legendary like they intended.

That still leaves you with new unique cosmetics as rewards for raiding, new only obtainable via raiding skins and minis, AND possibly Legendary weapons.

As a former raider in WoW, this is all I would ask of them. I don’t want an increase in stats. I would just like to see unique weapons, armor(soulbound/account bound only) and titles from completing the content. I would like to see the option of extremely difficult content that takes extensive planning in tactics and coordination.
Please give me a reason to join a guild.

Olvendred.3027:

you’ll probably get a single set of unique weapon skins, and a gold reward proportionate to difficulty, as in dungeons, but that doesn’t increase inflation too much. Overall, most people won’t be too excited.

This is all I expect and hope for , for raids as well and I feel it is a progressive and acceptable compromise for both groups. It doesn’t become the be all and end all of endgame, its just a nice additional activity that allows an organized group to show what they’re capable of at their best. It just gets its own set of account bound weapon skins/armor skins/minis that gives a small amount of recognition. (This is identical to the rewards SAB offered)

I notice several posts fears/opposition is based on the idea that a gear treadmill will appear and I would nearly guarantee that wouldn’t be the case, I’m sure Chris will mention as such at some point in the thread too.
Most raid type people I know didn’t like gear treadmills either they felt it invalidated their work, all they wanted was the recognition of “hey look at this impressive thing we did” with a nice item to show for it.

MithranArkanere.8957:

I disagree.

Women should be able to participate too in the entire of the game’s content. No exceptions.

Nothing should be for men only.

I am extremely confused by this post. Did anyone say anything about gender affecting ability to join content? If not, are you saying that women can’t handle hard content? This just came out of left field in this discussion.

For the actual discussion, I maintain the need for inclusive content. Not that everyone should necessarily be easily able to succeed at it — I myself will never beat the Clocktower, and I’m fine with that, nor has my guild ever gotten to guild puzzles — but the only bar to completion should be skill and willingness to put in the effort, not gear/trait checks.

Though as we get into the Guild Raid CDI, I’ll be agreeing that there is no definition of “raid” that allows for solo completion. (Not in the GW2 context, anyway, WoW’s gear treadmill means that now things like AQ can be swiftly soloed when they used to take 40 people a few hours of pain. No treadmill, no stat inflation here, thus ideally no trivialization of content). So there will be some sort of numeric bar requiring you to find enough people willing to join in the activity. Which will still not definitively eliminate any player’s options to join.

FrownyClown.8402:

Why is everyone so concerned with division between elitists and casuals? You realize fractals does the exact same thing you are concerned about with raids. Raids shouldn’t divide the community; it should bring members together in order to coordinate proper tactics.

If the new “Elite Missions” aren’t handled very delicately then it will divide the community even further. The current “Elite Missions” that we have in game are done very well in that they promote social interaction due to be open world and requiring one metric crap-ton of people to complete.

I have participated in and led countless “Elite Missions” in other games and I enjoyed them for the content that was offered in those games. Having even more “Elite Missions” placed into this game in the style that some are requesting is fine. In the end it won’t matter. It will be just another way for some to have fun in the game. I am all about having options.

As long as no new higher tiered gear is offered exclusively from these “Elite Missions” then any sort of divide will be minimal. As long as the new content is only one small option to acquiring the gear we already have or are already working on crafting.

Also I would like to point out that this new proposed content, if it does offer better rewards or a better chance at already existing rewards, then it will be taking numbers away from WvW and the “Elite Missions” already in place in the game. As it does so it will be funneling players into increasingly smaller groups which forces them to become less social. The content that is already offered encourages people to be more socially interactive because they are on a far larger scale.

NoTrigger.8396:

uberkingkong.8041:

Tequatl and Triple Trouble are the raids in GW2.

tequatl and triple trouble are considered trash mobs in other games, or base population.

Trash mobs don’t give you 4 chest rewards plus the original chest.
Trash mobs don’t consist of massive raid force.
If you want tiny 10-20 man raid go do Shadow Behemoth. Trash mobs don’t leave behind a massive chest. Shadow Behemoth only takes a small force to kill, not my fault your not getting that raid experience because 200 people showed up to the fight.

Those raid mobs are all open raids. Are you wanting instanced raids? Guild missions have instanced raids. Raid in Fields of Ruin, kill 3 raid mobs in time limit. Southsun Crab Toss is a raid event, survive massive amounts of mobs overwhelming you.

Now what you should be asking for is, Raid Gear, because this game has a decent amount of raids, open and instanced.

BTW theres only few that do Triple Trouble, most likely your guilds aren’t even doing him. So don’t ask for harder raids too because I can only think of a few that attempt him on the regular and not always get the gold reward.

But thing is GW2 wants everyone to be equal, so don’t expect to get raid gear, and even if you get it, everyone else is going to be wearing it too. It’s just how the game is made. If you want a game where you have gear far superior than someone else and able to roflstomp people because your a raider, this is wrong game for you. In WoW I hear you can do that kind of stuff. The raid considered gear in this game is ascended gear btw. Not everyone is fully decked, but doesn’t really make a huge impact, because the game is designed for everyone to be equal footing and equal chances.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Most raid type people I know didn’t like gear treadmills either they felt it invalidated their work, all they wanted was the recognition of “hey look at this impressive thing we did” with a nice item to show for it.

Maybe they dont want to have their gear invalidated .. however they still think that
they deserve better gear than all those “bad players” around that don’t raid.

Just post in any of the forums of one of these games the idea that raid-gear should
be not better than gear from dungeons, or even worse crafted gear, and see how
fast you will be flamed down.

I’ve tried that quite some times ..

Beldin.5498:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Most raid type people I know didn’t like gear treadmills either they felt it invalidated their work, all they wanted was the recognition of “hey look at this impressive thing we did” with a nice item to show for it.

Maybe they dont want to have their gear invalidated .. however they still think that
they deserve better gear than all those “bad players” around that don’t raid.

Just post in any of the forums of one of these games the idea that raid-gear should
be not better than gear from dungeons, or even worse crafted gear, and see how
fast you will be flamed down.

I’ve tried that quite some times ..

I wouldn’t dream of doing that in another game, it is heavily ingrained that that is part of the reward too in those games. I’d get ripped to pieces, and I’d understand why too if I feel my rewards are threatened I’d lash out too and hard.
It’s the paradox “I don’t want to have to keep upgrading my gear constantly and have my work invalidated every 6 months” while also “I don’t want that person sitting in a farm train to have the same stuff as me”.

Guildwars 2 present the opportunity of eliminating that downside, this community has it engrained in them that there should be no gear progression (That’s a good thing). This opens up the door for having other interesting rewards for doing raids that won’t be worthless in 6 months. A nice skin, maybe a special coloured poly jewel, a cool mini or two small things that still have meaning behind them because you know they only come from that raid. That way both sides win, people in farm trains don’t loose all value in their gear, people who do raids get some nice little items to show for their efforts.

IndigoSundown.5419:

spoj.9672:

All i can see in this thread is countless people saying they dont want raids because of selfish reasons. Its disgusting.

Wanting one’s own way is always selfish. This includes wanting raids and wanting raids that have better rewards than those available elsewhere. If selfishness is “disgusting,” then all selfishness is disgusting.

I’m not one saying there should be no raids. However, posts like this are not the way to successfully make your case.

Its disgusting because they dont even give decent justification.

Heres a summary of the anti raid posts:
- no (stronger or not) gear specific to the raid because they’d feel “forced” to raid;
- no highly desirable cosmetic/vanity items in the raid else they’d feel “forced” to raid;
- no content that requires high coordination (guilds), else they wouldn’t be able to raid;
- no content that requires high skillcap, else they wouldn’t be able to raid [duh];
- no content that requires a big team/time in an instance else they wouldn’t…

You cannot create decent endgame content if you follow these absurd guidelines. If they could give actual decent reasons for the stopping of development of new content then I would have no problem with the anti raid crowd. Attitude and being unable to appeal to everyone are not decent reasons. Any designer should understand that and I would of thought any sane person would be able to work that out aswell.

spoj.9672:

Heres a summary of the anti raid posts:
- no (stronger or not) gear specific to the raid because they’d feel “forced” to raid;
- no highly desirable cosmetic/vanity items in the raid else they’d feel “forced” to raid;
- no content that requires high coordination (guilds), else they wouldn’t be able to raid;
- no content that requires high skillcap, else they wouldn’t be able to raid [duh];
- no content that requires a big team/time in an instance else they wouldn’t…

You cannot create decent endgame content if you follow these absurd guidelines.

There are actually two alternative sets of guidelines here, that you have contracted together.

First, the common guideline: no better stat gear. Ascended were bad enough, we really don’t need any further gear progression here.

Then we go with two alternatives:
Either “raids” will be inclusive, allowing everyone to do them, not just being limited to “elite” top % of the population,
or
they will offer no better (or unique) rewards than what can be acquired elsewhere.

I’d consider keeping to one of those two alternate guidelines (as well as the no-vertical-progression one) to be an absolute minimum. Breaking both of them at the same time (or, even worse, breaking all three), would cause raids to become the end game content, the only one that would matter, instead of being just one of many options.

spoj.9672:

If they could give actual decent reasons for the stopping of development of new content then I would have no problem with the anti raid crowd.

I don’t want them to stop developing new content. I’d rather that content was something that appeals to me (hint: raids don’t belong to that category). Is this selfish? Yeah, it is. But then you are doing exactly the same.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Beldin.5498:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Most raid type people I know didn’t like gear treadmills either they felt it invalidated their work, all they wanted was the recognition of “hey look at this impressive thing we did” with a nice item to show for it.

Maybe they dont want to have their gear invalidated .. however they still think that
they deserve better gear than all those “bad players” around that don’t raid.

Just post in any of the forums of one of these games the idea that raid-gear should
be not better than gear from dungeons, or even worse crafted gear, and see how
fast you will be flamed down.

I’ve tried that quite some times ..

I wouldn’t dream of doing that in another game, it is heavily ingrained that that is part of the reward too in those games. I’d get ripped to pieces, and I’d understand why too if I feel my rewards are threatened I’d lash out too and hard.
It’s the paradox “I don’t want to have to keep upgrading my gear constantly and have my work invalidated every 6 months” while also “I don’t want that person sitting in a farm train to have the same stuff as me”.

Guildwars 2 present the opportunity of eliminating that downside, this community has it engrained in them that there should be no gear progression (That’s a good thing). This opens up the door for having other interesting rewards for doing raids that won’t be worthless in 6 months. A nice skin, maybe a special coloured poly jewel, a cool mini or two small things that still have meaning behind them because you know they only come from that raid. That way both sides win, people in farm trains don’t loose all value in their gear, people who do raids get some nice little items to show for their efforts.

The interesting thing of doing that in other games are however the reactions, and
the fact that quiet a lot people say : why should i do that annoying kitten if i can get
the same items anywhere else.

And that is why i still believe that only a very very small minority really wants real
hard raids even if they don’t give better stuff.

Just remember how often these people talk about “hard work”. Most just work hard
to earn their living .. and not because they enjoy it .. and they would not do it if they
are not forced to do it.

All in all i don’t think ANet could win anything with raids, and it would be maybe
even worse than the whole ascended fiasco.

spoj.9672:

Its disgusting because they dont even give decent justification.

Heres a summary of the anti raid posts:
- no (stronger or not) gear specific to the raid because they’d feel “forced” to raid;
- no highly desirable cosmetic/vanity items in the raid else they’d feel “forced” to raid;
- no content that requires high coordination (guilds), else they wouldn’t be able to raid;
- no content that requires high skillcap, else they wouldn’t be able to raid [duh];
- no content that requires a big team/time in an instance else they wouldn’t…

You cannot create decent endgame content if you follow these absurd guidelines.

Of course you can’t. Yet the guidelines you underlined are requested by a minority of entitled players that are very happy with the system right now and do not want it to change. Do you believe Anet only cares about these dudes ?

This is not the opinion of the majority of players.

On the topic of difficulty and accessibility :
Fractals were a very good compromise in terms of accessibility and difficulty scaling. The major failures of fractals as they stand right now are:

• Most of them are being facerolled (i.e not cahllenging)
• The reward distribution is atrociously bugged and wonky.

I still consider the owner of a fractal weapon as a person with lots of experience with fractals, simply because acquiring one is difficult and requires lvl 30+

If Anet designs 10 men raids with difficulty tiers so that casuals can experience them and get basic rewards (backpiece, trinkets), and harcores can get randomly dropped prestigious rewards at high levels (ascended armour set, weapons, minis etc.), I do not see the problem.

Astralporing.1957:

There are actually two alternative sets of guidelines here, that you have contracted together.

First, the common guideline: no better stat gear. Ascended were bad enough, we really don’t need any further gear progression here.

Then we go with two alternatives:
Either “raids” will be inclusive, allowing everyone to do them, not just being limited to “elite” top % of the population,
or
they will offer no better (or unique) rewards than what can be acquired elsewhere.

I’d consider keeping to one of those two alternate guidelines (as well as the no-vertical-progression one) to be an absolute minimum. Breaking both of them at the same time (or, even worse, breaking all three), would cause raids to become the end game content, the only one that would matter, instead of being just one of many options.

Those points are separate arguements. I agree i dont want more stat grind. But I dont understand how people can even come out with the other points. Content needs incentives to make people play it over and over. Best way for that is unique rewards such as exclusive skins. If its endgame content it should be engaging. So it should be challenging and it should require coordination. If it doesnt satisfy those requirements then its pointless to add.

Some people dont like to be challenged, those people will never be satisfied with this type of content. But if they feel so entitled to get exclusive rewards then they should be forced to play that content. I dont like open world but im forced to play it for dragonite. But im not so entitled as to say “dont add more world bosses because they arent what I want”. Please use common sense.

Astralporing.1957:

I don’t want them to stop developing new content. I’d rather that content was something that appeals to me (hint: raids don’t belong to that category). Is this selfish? Yeah, it is. But then you are doing exactly the same.

Raids might not be for you, thats fair enough. Instead of spouting anti raid propaganda maybe you should make suggestions on what would make you want to play raids without ruining its purpose (challenging endgame content with good rewards). Im hardly doing the same thing. I dont like the way a lot of things are in game but ive never once said they should stop adding world bosses and living story.

I think its fair to be slightly selfish in wanting some challenging content. We havent had any for over a year. And adding new challenging content doesnt hurt anyone. Its not like anet will suddenly stop developing all other areas of the game just to make raids.

Also if you think theres a potential problem in raids being the only rewarding content then why dont anet buff the rewards of other content. Weve been asking for fractal and dungeon rewards to match their difficulty and completion time for over a year. But fractals still has the worst rewards despite being the most challenging part of PvE. Whereas dungeons and open world which are easy in comparison reward a hell of a lot more.

spoj.9672:

Those points are separate arguments.

- snip -

I think its fair to be slightly selfish in wanting some challenging content. We havent had any for over a year. And adding new challenging content doesnt hurt anyone. Its not like anet will suddenly stop developing all other areas of the game just to make raids.

- snip -

I agree that in order to make content worthwhile for the developer, it has to have longevity. In order to have longevity, it has to offer rewards. I’m fine with exclusive rewards for whatever ANet decides to do with whatever their take on raids is — as long as stat grind — whether exclusive or not — is not involved.

However, I can see both sides of the issue. There are a lot of games that offer exclusive access to stuff via harder content. There are very few (maybe just this one) that offer more equal access. Belittling the “other side” because they’d like to hold on to that is counter-productive. It’s a cheap trick to try to disenfranchise their views. Your points, if they have merit, should stand on their own, without those tricks.

As to whether it’s fair to be selfish in wanting some challenging content… I’ve said before that everything added to the game — from events to mob armies — since the 15 Nov 2012 patch has been progressively more challenging than what was offered outside of dungeons at launch. This stuff may not be “challenging enough” to the best players. However, PvE rarely offers any real challenge to the best players in every MMO. Raids hide that to some extent because the raid can often fail based on one failure point in a group of 10-25-???. However, if you look at raids from the single players perspective, most of them aren’t really hard unless there is an under-geared issue. Real challenge in online games is usually found in PvP. Still ANet has been consistently trying to make hard_er_ content.

Also, how much content has been added for explorer playstyles since launch? SSC (a half-completed, very simple zone), SotW (a temporary zone) and Dry Top (a fairly small zone). How many world bosses have been added? TT, Marionette (temporary), maybe the LSS1 finale in LA. TT and the Teq revamp were aimed at raiders (whether they hit the mark or not is another matter).

I know you feel that GW2 has not added a lot for your play-style. However, I feel they’ve added even less for mine. A lot of people are complaining about lack of new, interesting content, not just those seeking raids (or other harder instanced content).

OP speaks the truth, however, if you think 5 man is unachievable content you should join a good guild. And moreover, 10-20 man raids SHOULD also require the skill of a high end fractal. Otherwise, how would the raid be any more endgame than all the other stuff you can do 1-79?

Brutality.9631:

And moreover, 10-20 man raids SHOULD also require the skill of a high end fractal.

I do have a problem with this statement:

A lot of players stated GW2 lacks any type of endgame content and also pretend that even fractal 50 is easy and/or cheesed out with stealth, portal and LoS/cornerstack.

So for the difficulty, you’ll have to look beyond what fractals have to offer.

I repeated this time and again : an optimised party can nuke almost any HP bag Anet can throw at it and thus prevent the boss from using its abilities (read: make the boss uninteresting). Imagine now what a party of 20 can do. How much DPS such a group can generate.

I see Raids in GW2 as a multi-entrance instance, or dungeon if you like.
Every 5 people entering the instance will be sent to a different entrance, one of the four different ones if they all enter from the same portal.
To specifically enter a certain portal, the 5 player team should enter if through the specific portal within the map.zones of Tyria
I see the LFG like this: LFG Portal 1, LFG portal 2 etc.
Every formed 5 player team can enter the portal independently from other teams because they have different paths to follow, anyway up until all 4 teams will cross paths

VodCom.6924:

I repeated this time and again : an optimised party can nuke almost any HP bag Anet can throw at it and thus prevent the boss from using its abilities (read: make the boss uninteresting). Imagine now what a party of 20 can do. How much DPS such a group can generate.

this doesnt make any sense, because its just a matter of how you design bosses and the mechanics behind the fight.
and bosses for 20 people need more hp obviously. i dont understand what you are trying to say.