Guild Wars 2

Zaron.1987:

Wanze.8410:

Ihales.3820:

for example 200g vs 1000g out of TP

say hello to mithril and elder wood at vendor prices and a couple of copper for t5 fine mats.

yay, that would be so awesome….

remember you can only do prec crafting one time ….

there will be more than enough that still play the flushing toilet game

Yep, so people with lots of alts that still need a precursor are still left out in the cold. Not sure why they restricted it to one per account when the end result is account bound…

Notsoperky.4291:

Zaron.1987:

Wanze.8410:

Ihales.3820:

for example 200g vs 1000g out of TP

say hello to mithril and elder wood at vendor prices and a couple of copper for t5 fine mats.

yay, that would be so awesome….

remember you can only do prec crafting one time ….

there will be more than enough that still play the flushing toilet game

Yep, so people with lots of alts that still need a precursor are still left out in the cold. Not sure why they restricted it to one per account when the end result is account bound…

Possibly so that people couldn’t get the Twice-told Legend achievement more easily or something? That is a good question really, since they’re account bound would it really matter if a player could make 10 Twilights if he/she so desired.. or maybe it’s to make sure people will still need to rely on the old way to get another and keep the precursor prices the way they are now, that’s the other reason I would think for the restriction of one per account.

Just one precursor per account? This doesn’t read like that:

This crafting system is an account-based activity, which means you’ll only be able to craft each precursor this way once. However, all of the currently existing precursor acquisition methods will remain intact in addition to this new acquisition method. That means that if you want a particular precursor more than once, you’ll have to fall back to the original methods of acquisition.

Each precursor once is the key text in that section :-)

Notsoperky.4291:

Zaron.1987:

Wanze.8410:

Ihales.3820:

for example 200g vs 1000g out of TP

say hello to mithril and elder wood at vendor prices and a couple of copper for t5 fine mats.

yay, that would be so awesome….

remember you can only do prec crafting one time ….

there will be more than enough that still play the flushing toilet game

Yep, so people with lots of alts that still need a precursor are still left out in the cold. Not sure why they restricted it to one per account when the end result is account bound…

Well, you can get every precursor once through finishing its collection and you dont need it more than once because, nevermind how many alts you have because of the wardrobe system.

And the old precursors obtained through collections seem to be tradeable, only the new ones will be account bound upon acquire,

Endless Soul.5178:

Everyone talks about buying legendary materials on the Trading Post. Am I the only one looking forward to gathering the required materials myself? Because that’s what I’ll be doing. I want my legendary to be mine. I made it without using the Trading Post.

I don’t know about the others but in my example I showed how if you sell those materials after you gather them you will get enough gold to buy your precursor and have loads of leftovers, if the cost of all precursors is about the same, in some cases you will get double the price of the cheaper and mid-expensive ones. Only the most expensive ones will make you lose gold if you sell the mats.

I will also go and make the precursor myself without buying anything on the TP. I want my precursor to be mine, that’s why I like the addition of the precursor crafting. However, what happens once you get everything for it and you realize that if you sell the mats instead of crafting the precursor you will end up with an incredible profit? Would you still craft it, or sell the mats and buy it?

Psientist.6437:

Wanze,

Again, all those figures show is that the demand for gem shop exclusive items persistently dominates the demand for Precursors. The effect of players using real world currency on precursors and luxury goods in general would require looking at the price trends and production trends of precursors and luxury goods.

The intial argument i had a problem with was that precursors prices are inflated due to players using gem/gold conversion to bring the price up.

I disagree with both theories, that the prices are in fact inflated and its the currency exchange that caused it.

Inflated prices for me mean that precursors are traded for way more than their actual production cost. Its nearly impossible, even for Anet, to put a production cost on randomly acquired precursors, but its fairly easy to determine the production costs via target forging. The community was done extensive research on the droprate from the forge and even though that numbers might not be 100% accurate, Anet certainly knows, how much exotic outcomes you need from forging weapons on average to obtain a precursor.

So if on average every 134th exotic you pull out of the forge is a precursor, its easy to determine, how much the production cost is, using self-crafted rare or exotic weapons or bought rare and exotic weapons on the tp.

For the expensive precursors, those production cost are a little under the tp prices for the corresponding pres, which is usually labours fee and profit margin, it also depends, if you use buy orders or buy the mats directly and how you sell your precursor.

But for the cheaper pres, that production cost is higher than the price the precursor is traded for on the tp because the corresponding rare and exotic weapons are worth more, if you salvage them for ectos.

People think, expensive pres are inflated in price but in fact, cheap ones are undervalued.

About the currency exchange being responsible for inflated prices, i already said my part, and John Smith seems to agree with me. Prices would be the same, if the CE wouldnt exist and it couldnt be the culprit anyways because the phenomenon of inflated prices doesnt exist in the first place.

Setz.9675:

lordkrall.7241:

Setz.9675:

Grinding gold to buy the precursor or grinding gold to buy the materials. Same thing, just more stages.

Except for the fact that the majority of the things for the Juggernaut (and most likely the others) seems to be actually DOING stuff rather than farming stuff.

You still miss the point, you do stuff to unlock the recipe. You then end up grinding gold to buy the materials needed to craft the pre. It all boils down to filling 3 collections so you can spend the equal amount of gold a precursor costs and spend it on ascended materials instead.

But if you are traipsing all around the world, won’t the new map rewards system load you up on a fair chunk of those materials that you need, along the way? Personally, even if it does cost more gold, I won’t mind – I’ll gladly take that and all the exploring and lore stuff, plus a guaranteed Legendary at the end of it – if I put the time in. There are many that will like this. And for others who don’t have the patience, you’ve got the current method. Except for the new Legendaries of course.

I don’t know if the actual cost of completing the collections will be the same as just buy the pre at the TP, but in the end, since you occupy a good chunk of time in actual activities, thus spending time (that could be used to get gold) the overall cost HAS to be lower otherwise there’s no point.

While the whole collection is a awesome way to get it, that rewards you work in a seeable way, it has to be at least worth the time spent.

Just my 2 coppers

Zaron.1987:

Bomber.3872:

So even if the precursor collections would cost twice as much as currently, it would be awesome and still be the best change we get with HoT!

. never read such thing here. i guess on this topic your are a lonley special snowflake

he’s a notorious troll here, just ignore him, everyone else does

Wanze.8410:

Well, you can get every precursor once through finishing its collection and you dont need it more than once because, nevermind how many alts you have because of the wardrobe system.

That was true before the ascended introduction (well, would have been if wardrobe already existed then), but now legendaries have an added QoL function (stat changing) beyond the skin, that has its own value. They are also supposedly hamster wheel-proof in case Anet ever decided that they do want to introduce a new gear tier, after all.

Telebrion.3645:

Doam.8305:

What got me was when they stated enough gold and time at tier 3 to keep the value of the Pre’s on the TP.

Did they ever say that? They said they wanted the Precursors to keep value, and I expect that they’ll still cost several hundred gold to complete, because there needs to be a large investment so that they retain their… grandeur. But I don’t believe they said that they want the Precursors to keep the same value they currently have on the TP. I mean, Dusk and The Legend are triple the price of The Energizer. Do you really think they’d make those Precursors three times as expensive as the other collections, just because they’re more expensive on the TP?

Forget the Energizer, Dusk costs something like 15 times as much as Venom or Rage!

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Telebrion.3645:

Doam.8305:

What got me was when they stated enough gold and time at tier 3 to keep the value of the Pre’s on the TP.

Did they ever say that? They said they wanted the Precursors to keep value, and I expect that they’ll still cost several hundred gold to complete, because there needs to be a large investment so that they retain their… grandeur. But I don’t believe they said that they want the Precursors to keep the same value they currently have on the TP. I mean, Dusk and The Legend are triple the price of The Energizer. Do you really think they’d make those Precursors three times as expensive as the other collections, just because they’re more expensive on the TP?

Forget the Energizer, Dusk costs something like 15 times as much as Venom or Rage!

No, the collections for the other undervalued precursors will be vastly more expensive than the precursors are on the TP.

This has already been covered by Wanze earlier in this thread.

Even if you modify for higher rare/exotic costs on the trading post (GS rares are about 2 times the price of other rare waepons. Staff rares are about 2.5 times the price).

Rare and Exotics base value is determined by the value of ectos and the salvage rate mainly. (currently at about 35s per rare, 40s per ecto)

So if we adjust for normal rare price, we still come out at aproximately 500-700 gold for The Legend, and similar numbers for Dusk/Dawn (note here, GS are valued lower on the TP since both Dusk and Dawn can be the result and Dawn is valued lower than Dusk).

We can thus assume that 500-800 gold are the normal prices achieved with current rare/exotic prices on the TP. Hence ALL precursors valued lower where rare prices are at 30-35s are undervalued.

Maybe Arenanet has factored this in, maybe not. I kind of doubt they have gone out of their way to make less desired precursors cheaper.

Calcifire.1864:

Zaron.1987:

Bomber.3872:

So even if the precursor collections would cost twice as much as currently, it would be awesome and still be the best change we get with HoT!

. never read such thing here. i guess on this topic your are a lonley special snowflake

he’s a notorious troll here, just ignore him, everyone else does

Thanks mate… Actually I thought it’s common knowledge that collections maingoal is to remove rng factor from gaining pres…
Because the rng factor is the main complain about legendary’s since gw2 release:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-And-Precursor-Drops
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/precursor-collection-and-RNG
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/Need-precursor-not-a-QQ-about-RNG-or-TP
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/gw2-precursor-recipe-scavanger-hunt-news

Two with anet staff:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/arenanet-tracker/topic/337596-collections-non-rng-precursors/

Even one from gw2 release:
https://m.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/115cwa/guild_wars_2_forum_official_response_drop_rate_of/

Cyninja, thanks for clarifying. Wanze, the currency exchange can be applied to production cost as well. The structure exists that can cause selective and general ‘price inflation’. Is it 1-2% (at 58 pres a day that would be 1-2 pres a day or their equivalent materials) or 10%?

I agree, we have helped derail this thread.

I have always been skeptical of the argument that a gathered material can’t be a ‘free’ material. From an economic min-max perspective, sure gathering materials isn’t free. But this is a game, and this game does throw materials at us. If I am walking my dog and find a $20 bill (it would likely be a $20 bill I lost so apply this model to yourself instead) that is free money.

The addition of precursor pricing makes it more fun for many players to go ‘dog walking’. And from a monetized monetary policy the addition of precursor crafting eliminates the (imo) most egregious product on the market, the high risk of MF production that can only be reduced by MFing many precursors.

maddoctor.2738:

lordkrall.7241:

People are overestimating the amount of gold required. The majority of the collections are about doing stuff rather than buying stuff.

Is my math accurate?

However there are mats that have a price on the TP and are required to complete the precursor. For example, the volume 1 recipe requires 5g, let’s say that all of them need 5g for a total of 15g for the recipe alone.
Then we have this:
http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/gw2-legendary-precursor-collection-4.jpg
The Experimental hammer haft requires 10 Spiritwood Planks. That’s 50g there (5g per Plank)
The Legendary Inscription requires:
10 Globs of Ectoplasm (at 39s each, 3g 90s)
5 Piles of Crystalline Dust (at 23s each, 1g 15s)
Orichalcum Plated Dowel (60s)
10 Elonian Leather Squares (at 3g 50s each, 35g total)
For a total of 90g 60s per tier of the precursor.
You might need those 3 times (3 tiers), because you will need to craft three tiers total, for a price of 271g 80s
This excludes the second component, the Legendary Hammer Head in the case of Colossus, because we don’t know what kind of materials we will need for that. I’d assume it will require 10 Deldrimor Ingots (to be in line with the 10 Spiritwood Planks for the Haft) so there is a good chance the price will be +121g 50s = 393g 30s + 15g for the volume recipes = 408g 30s in materials alone.
I apologize if I made math mistakes above, and we don’t know if we will need to craft all three tiers and not just one. I’m also assuming each tier of the precursor requires the same materials (haft/head/inscription is the same each tier)
The Colossus is ~800-900g and with precursor crafting you can make it with 410g, is the rest of going around and doing the other collections “worth” 400g? That’s up to the individual player to decide.
But what happens with precursors that are valued below 400g? That’s the big question.

400g for a precursor? Good for some precursors, rather bad for others.

I just wanted to thank you for not arguing and presenting the fact’s and opinions in a way that the average player can understand. I wasn’t sure how i felt about this in the beginning but after reading your post i feel like i understand the possible situations better and i hope they forgo some of the price even if they feel like they need to add some more adventuring.

Getting a precursor from the TP is fast, easy and expensive. As an alternative to that I would have expected crafting them to be somewhat challenging, and for it to take a while, but cost pretty much nothing – keep in mind crafting the legendary itself already takes a crapton of gold so there is no need to double charge on the precursor too.

Like if this system is to be useful it should be an alternative to the grind, not grind+.

Shinzan.2908:

Getting a precursor from the TP is fast, easy and expensive. As an alternative to that I would have expected crafting them to be somewhat challenging, and for it to take a while, but cost pretty much nothing – keep in mind crafting the legendary itself already takes a crapton of gold so there is no need to double charge on the precursor too.

Like if this system is to be useful it should be an alternative to the grind, not grind+.

Yeah, I found that facet really irritating when I read the run-down. Deliberately making the process expensive “to preserve the value of precursors,” as if they weren’t based solely on artificial scarcity, like every other special exotic? (Try finishing the Karma Converter with just gold…)
I don’t mind the random tasks, or the occasional gold sink of a few gold and materials here and there, but the obviously market-driven decision still grates pretty hard.

Just so that we are clear…

Wanze.8410:

And people, who buy gems with real cash to buy their precursors cant be responsible for inflated prices because they dont inject any gold into the economy, they actually take some gold out of it. And if prices of some precursors should spike temporarily (because 10-20 people buy the same one) professional forgers will add new supply because forging them with bought rares or crafted ones with t5 mats will yield good profit.

The presence of the gem exchange has certainly resulted in higher precursor prices. It is analogous to how home financing has lead to higher housing prices (alongside higher quality and quantity) – the gem exchange relaxes a liquidity constraint, allowing players who otherwise didn’t have the gold to pay their true value for a precursor, driving the market towards its unconstrained equilibrium.

Without the gem exchange precursors would likely have a lower sticker price, as the market would be more constrained.

This price rise is in no way artificial (this is natural and more consistent with efficiency), and has nothing to do with inflation (moving money around between players while keeping the total quantity constant will have no first order effect on aggregate inflation, and has a second order effect of lowering the price level – that is, deflation – due to the interaction of the velocity effect and the TP fee).

Wanze.8410:

I stand by my point, expensive precursors reflect the value of the materials that are needed to forge one.

It is more accurate to say that the value of the materials reflects the market for expensive precursors, not the other way around. The aggregate supply of materials that are used to forge precursors is relatively inelastic – if precursor forging went away entirely there would still be a ton of T5 materials produced from people playing the game, even though mithril and elder wood would be vendor trash and T5 fine materials would mostly be valuable for promoting in the forge and crafting cheap rares for ecto salvaging. Precursor prices, on the other hand, are remarkably stable in the face of changes in the supply of T5 – they had a modest dip during the absolute surge in materials from the queen’s gauntlet, and have otherwise held stable for long periods of time even as underlying changes in the supply of source materials changes.

Strictly speaking both directions are true – the prices of T5 materials and the prices of expensive precursors go hand in hand. The difference is that demand for precursors is driving the price behavior in the T5 material markets, not the other way around. Put another way, the step in the production chain with the highest elasticity will tend to drive the market, with the rest sloshing around in response – in this case, precursors drive the market, and T5 prices slosh around in response to chatter in the precursor markets.

Ensign.2189:

Just so that we are clear…

Wanze.8410:

And people, who buy gems with real cash to buy their precursors cant be responsible for inflated prices because they dont inject any gold into the economy, they actually take some gold out of it. And if prices of some precursors should spike temporarily (because 10-20 people buy the same one) professional forgers will add new supply because forging them with bought rares or crafted ones with t5 mats will yield good profit.

The presence of the gem exchange has certainly resulted in higher precursor prices. It is analogous to how home financing has lead to higher housing prices (alongside higher quality and quantity) – the gem exchange relaxes a liquidity constraint, allowing players who otherwise didn’t have the gold to pay their true value for a precursor, driving the market towards its unconstrained equilibrium.

Without the gem exchange precursors would likely have a lower sticker price, as the market would be more constrained.

This price rise is in no way artificial (this is natural and more consistent with efficiency), and has nothing to do with inflation (moving money around between players while keeping the total quantity constant will have no first order effect on aggregate inflation, and has a second order effect of lowering the price level – that is, deflation – due to the interaction of the velocity effect and the TP fee).

I already posted a quote from John Smith on this issue and he seems to agree that the existence of the CE doesnt bring prices up. And i tend to agree with him rather than with you.

The gem exchange might relax a liquidity constraint short term but it doesnt take away the demand, if it wouldnt be an option anymore.

Someone who buys gems in order to pay for a precursor will only lose his instant success of acquiring it, should the CE be disabled, but his demand for the precursor remains until he obtained enough funds in game in order to purchase it.

I agree, some players demand for a precursor could vanish, if he isnt able to purchase it instantly with cash because he wont have the time to farm enough gold in game for it to be a reasonable target but this would also trigger new demand from those players, that used to spend their leftover gold on gems. If they cant purchase those anymore, they might focus their interest on prestige items on the trading post, for example precursors.

To be honest, I feel betrayed. I’ve spent the better part of 3 years gathering the materials, throwing away crafted exotics and rares into the RNG pit and such for my legendary; failing at every turn and ready to walk away from the game forever.

I came back to the game with the promise that getting a precursor would be a journey and not be something else in the game attached to the gold standard pretty much anything else is. I got the $100 version of the game and translated 4,400 gems into gold to buy the T6 mats I still needed.

I expected a bunch of quests and kill X dudes that eventually got me account bound stuff that then let me make an account bound “The Legend”. But nope, it’s more time gated crafting and expensive material sinks.

Superfrick.1536:

To be honest, I feel betrayed. I’ve spent the better part of 3 years gathering the materials, throwing away crafted exotics and rares into the RNG pit and such for my legendary; failing at every turn and ready to walk away from the game forever.

I came back to the game with the promise that getting a precursor would be a journey and not be something else in the game attached to the gold standard pretty much anything else is. I got the $100 version of the game and translated 4,400 gems into gold to buy the T6 mats I still needed.

I expected a bunch of quests and kill X dudes that eventually got me account bound stuff that then let me make an account bound “The Legend”. But nope, it’s more time gated crafting and expensive material sinks.

I’m sorry you learned the hard way on this one. Arenanet isn’t going to make any changes that would affect the current transaction rates and prices on the Trading Post. You can fully expect to pay just as much gold to “craft” a precursor as you currently would to just buy one off the TP.

Neural.1824:

Superfrick.1536:

To be honest, I feel betrayed. I’ve spent the better part of 3 years gathering the materials, throwing away crafted exotics and rares into the RNG pit and such for my legendary; failing at every turn and ready to walk away from the game forever.

I came back to the game with the promise that getting a precursor would be a journey and not be something else in the game attached to the gold standard pretty much anything else is. I got the $100 version of the game and translated 4,400 gems into gold to buy the T6 mats I still needed.

I expected a bunch of quests and kill X dudes that eventually got me account bound stuff that then let me make an account bound “The Legend”. But nope, it’s more time gated crafting and expensive material sinks.

I’m sorry you learned the hard way on this one. Arenanet isn’t going to make any changes that would affect the current transaction rates and prices on the Trading Post. You can fully expect to pay just as much gold to “craft” a precursor as you currently would to just buy one off the TP.

It’ll likely be less direct gold needed to get a precursor from the collections than buy off the TP. There will be a time element included which will bring the value of the collections in line with existing precursor prices.

Ayrilana.1396:

Neural.1824:

Superfrick.1536:

To be honest, I feel betrayed. I’ve spent the better part of 3 years gathering the materials, throwing away crafted exotics and rares into the RNG pit and such for my legendary; failing at every turn and ready to walk away from the game forever.

I came back to the game with the promise that getting a precursor would be a journey and not be something else in the game attached to the gold standard pretty much anything else is. I got the $100 version of the game and translated 4,400 gems into gold to buy the T6 mats I still needed.

I expected a bunch of quests and kill X dudes that eventually got me account bound stuff that then let me make an account bound “The Legend”. But nope, it’s more time gated crafting and expensive material sinks.

I’m sorry you learned the hard way on this one. Arenanet isn’t going to make any changes that would affect the current transaction rates and prices on the Trading Post. You can fully expect to pay just as much gold to “craft” a precursor as you currently would to just buy one off the TP.

It’ll likely be less direct gold needed to get a precursor from the collections than buy off the TP. There will be a time element included which will bring the value of the collections in line with existing precursor prices.

Unless “less direct gold” is a good 40% of the overall cost, collections will not be worth it, because you can bet that the amount of time required to get everything done will be much longer than you would have to spend farming gold straight up.

I’ll be quite happy to eat crow and be wrong about this, but I seriously doubt there is anyway in which this new method will be remotely economical compared to the almighty cash-to-gold method.

Neural.1824:

Superfrick.1536:

To be honest, I feel betrayed. I’ve spent the better part of 3 years gathering the materials, throwing away crafted exotics and rares into the RNG pit and such for my legendary; failing at every turn and ready to walk away from the game forever.

I came back to the game with the promise that getting a precursor would be a journey and not be something else in the game attached to the gold standard pretty much anything else is. I got the $100 version of the game and translated 4,400 gems into gold to buy the T6 mats I still needed.

I expected a bunch of quests and kill X dudes that eventually got me account bound stuff that then let me make an account bound “The Legend”. But nope, it’s more time gated crafting and expensive material sinks.

I’m sorry you learned the hard way on this one. Arenanet isn’t going to make any changes that would affect the current transaction rates and prices on the Trading Post. You can fully expect to pay just as much gold to “craft” a precursor as you currently would to just buy one off the TP.

But why should it matter what the TP cost of a precursor is? It’s already been established from 3 years of playing that I am not going to ever afford to spend the 1,300 Gold for The Legend in the Auction house. Ever. I am not a customer for that. My getting an account bound The Legend doesn’t change the TP value of a non-account bound one. I was never, ever, going to buy one.

But I am a customer who has wanted to sparkle and fling rainbows and has played the game for years in hopes of maybe some day getting to. And now I’m saddened that I’m either paying 1,300GP or forced to take part in “1,300GP worth of crafting and grinding”

Neural.1824:

Ayrilana.1396:

Neural.1824:

Superfrick.1536:

To be honest, I feel betrayed. I’ve spent the better part of 3 years gathering the materials, throwing away crafted exotics and rares into the RNG pit and such for my legendary; failing at every turn and ready to walk away from the game forever.

I came back to the game with the promise that getting a precursor would be a journey and not be something else in the game attached to the gold standard pretty much anything else is. I got the $100 version of the game and translated 4,400 gems into gold to buy the T6 mats I still needed.

I expected a bunch of quests and kill X dudes that eventually got me account bound stuff that then let me make an account bound “The Legend”. But nope, it’s more time gated crafting and expensive material sinks.

I’m sorry you learned the hard way on this one. Arenanet isn’t going to make any changes that would affect the current transaction rates and prices on the Trading Post. You can fully expect to pay just as much gold to “craft” a precursor as you currently would to just buy one off the TP.

It’ll likely be less direct gold needed to get a precursor from the collections than buy off the TP. There will be a time element included which will bring the value of the collections in line with existing precursor prices.

Unless “less direct gold” is a good 40% of the overall cost, collections will not be worth it, because you can bet that the amount of time required to get everything done will be much longer than you would have to spend farming gold straight up.

I’ll be quite happy to eat crow and be wrong about this, but I seriously doubt there is anyway in which this new method will be remotely economical compared to the almighty cash-to-gold method.

Maybe or maybe it’ll be on par with that. That way you can be doing something fun to complete the collections rather than farming gold the entire time.

Ayrilana.1396:

Neural.1824:

Superfrick.1536:

To be honest, I feel betrayed. I’ve spent the better part of 3 years gathering the materials, throwing away crafted exotics and rares into the RNG pit and such for my legendary; failing at every turn and ready to walk away from the game forever.

I came back to the game with the promise that getting a precursor would be a journey and not be something else in the game attached to the gold standard pretty much anything else is. I got the $100 version of the game and translated 4,400 gems into gold to buy the T6 mats I still needed.

I expected a bunch of quests and kill X dudes that eventually got me account bound stuff that then let me make an account bound “The Legend”. But nope, it’s more time gated crafting and expensive material sinks.

I’m sorry you learned the hard way on this one. Arenanet isn’t going to make any changes that would affect the current transaction rates and prices on the Trading Post. You can fully expect to pay just as much gold to “craft” a precursor as you currently would to just buy one off the TP.

It’ll likely be less direct gold needed to get a precursor from the collections than buy off the TP. There will be a time element included which will bring the value of the collections in line with existing precursor prices.

This will depend on the precursor and if the materials required for each one will be the same or not. I can redirect you to my post with all the math about it, how selling the mats needed to craft Colossus (sell not buy) will net you ~400g. While the precursor itself is at 800g (so double the value of materials) What does that mean for a precursor that costs 190g on the TP? Is the difference between precursors going to be so huge?

And let’s say that indeed some precursor are very cheap compared to others. For how long? And how will they ensure the prices stay that way in the long run? (hint: they can’t, it’s a player driven market). I really doubt precursors that currently cost less than 200g will cost 200g to craft, while precursors that cost 1000g will require 1000g to craft, that would be just silly.

Personally the only reasons for doing the collection for me is the unique tiered precursor skins, and some of the (hopefully) fun lore based “quests”.

From an efficiency point of view, I’ve almost saved up all the gold needed for the legend – just going to wait and see if it drops in price by a couple of hundred and then I’m buying off the TP.

I’ll do the collections for the new legendaries if I like them, but not going to bother much for the old ones.

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

Neural.1824:

Superfrick.1536:

To be honest, I feel betrayed. I’ve spent the better part of 3 years gathering the materials, throwing away crafted exotics and rares into the RNG pit and such for my legendary; failing at every turn and ready to walk away from the game forever.

I came back to the game with the promise that getting a precursor would be a journey and not be something else in the game attached to the gold standard pretty much anything else is. I got the $100 version of the game and translated 4,400 gems into gold to buy the T6 mats I still needed.

I expected a bunch of quests and kill X dudes that eventually got me account bound stuff that then let me make an account bound “The Legend”. But nope, it’s more time gated crafting and expensive material sinks.

I’m sorry you learned the hard way on this one. Arenanet isn’t going to make any changes that would affect the current transaction rates and prices on the Trading Post. You can fully expect to pay just as much gold to “craft” a precursor as you currently would to just buy one off the TP.

It’ll likely be less direct gold needed to get a precursor from the collections than buy off the TP. There will be a time element included which will bring the value of the collections in line with existing precursor prices.

This will depend on the precursor and if the materials required for each one will be the same or not. I can redirect you to my post with all the math about it, how selling the mats needed to craft Colossus (sell not buy) will net you ~400g. While the precursor itself is at 800g (so double the value of materials) What does that mean for a precursor that costs 190g on the TP? Is the difference between precursors going to be so huge?

And let’s say that indeed some precursor are very cheap compared to others. For how long? And how will they ensure the prices stay that way in the long run? (hint: they can’t, it’s a player driven market). I really doubt precursors that currently cost less than 200g will cost 200g to craft, while precursors that cost 1000g will require 1000g to craft, that would be just silly.

Yeah I forgot to take that into consideration.

Wanze.8410:

I already posted a quote from John Smith on this issue and he seems to agree that the existence of the CE doesnt bring prices up. And i tend to agree with him rather than with you.

It does not bring aggregate prices up (it brings aggregate prices down, necessarily; that’s, like, the first day of international macro), which is the main argument. It does however change the distribution of consumption across goods (and individuals); some prices go up, some go down (though, again, in aggregate, they go down). This, again, is fundamental to an exchange – if there were not heterogeneous preferences, no one would use the exchange. That people do use the exchange is sufficient evidence to conclude that there are demand effects that influence prices.

Wanze.8410:

The gem exchange might relax a liquidity constraint short term but it doesnt take away the demand, if it wouldnt be an option anymore.

The gem exchange changes the distribution of consumption across categories of goods. This is true as long as the people exchanging gold for gems and the people exchanging gems for gold have structural differences in consumption preferences (which we have prima facie evidence of in their use of the gem exchange).

Wanze.8410:

Someone who buys gems in order to pay for a precursor will only lose his instant success of acquiring it, should the CE be disabled, but his demand for the precursor remains until he obtained enough funds in game in order to purchase it.

Sure. However the funds he acquires after having bought his first precursor through the CE have a different demand profile than the funds that the person who fed the CE in the first place would have had without the CE – necessarily. The person who bought the precursor through the CE, for instance, may start saving for another precursor, while the person feeding the CE is, well, not saving for a precursor. Different demand profiles, imperfect substitution, sectoral differences etc.

I mean, none of this is set into stone – I can’t say for sure that the counterfactual balance would have lower precursor prices without more detailed data, though it almost certainly does (from my experience virtually everyone converting gems to gold in large amounts are doing so to make legendaries); CEs in virtual economies redistribute money upwards, increase inequality, and thus push the prices of luxury goods up.

That’s not artificial or a ‘fake’ price increase or somehow a scam or anything, it’s just what happens in a more fluid equilibrium with wider consumption options. But it does mean precursor prices are almost certainly higher than they would be in counterfactual land.

Ayrilana.1396:

Maybe or maybe it’ll be on par with that. That way you can be doing something fun to complete the collections rather than farming gold the entire time.

From what we have seen precursor crafting uses a different set of materials (T7) than precursor forging (T5). Demand for the different methods can thus float independently.

There’s basically no way that this doesn’t lower prices (supply is up, prices go down at equilibrium), but the gap between TP and crafting, well, that’ll be determined by the market.

Ensign.2189:

Ayrilana.1396:

Maybe or maybe it’ll be on par with that. That way you can be doing something fun to complete the collections rather than farming gold the entire time.

From what we have seen precursor crafting uses a different set of materials (T7) than precursor forging (T5). Demand for the different methods can thus float independently.

There’s basically no way that this doesn’t lower prices (supply is up, prices go down at equilibrium), but the gap between TP and crafting, well, that’ll be determined by the market.

Any crafting materials involved in the creation of a precursor are going to balance out in value equal to the current prices though. Especially if it’s ascended items required for the materials. They have time gated factors involved too.
As I’ve eluded to before. I think Arenanet decides what they want precursors to sell for on the TP, then structures loot drops and such around making that happen, not the other way around.

Glad you entered the conversation, was hoping you would. Before I say anything else I want to stress my agreement with this quote.

Ensign.2189:

That’s not artificial or a ‘fake’ price increase or somehow a scam or anything, it’s just what happens in a more fluid equilibrium with wider consumption options. But it does mean precursor prices are almost certainly higher than they would be in counterfactual land.

Some discussion on your other posts here? I must admit that in all things economic I am mostly self taught and have my suspicions about my teacher.

CE’s effect on aggregate price.

It is very inexpensive to stay relevant in Tyria and the cost eventually falls close to zero. As the player population matures, aggregate price becomes less relevant than the aggregate price of the most commonly traded goods. The collection of most commonly traded goods becomes more similar to the collection of luxury goods.

CEs effect on currency supply.

You know what….I am going to leave that alone.

Neural.1824:

Any crafting materials involved in the creation of a precursor are going to balance out in value equal to the current prices though. Especially if it’s ascended items required for the materials. They have time gated factors involved too.

Exactly, except it’s going to be more complicated – people can either buy a precursor outright (which uses the mystic forge value chain), or they can use the collection + craft path (which uses the T7 chain). If it was simply two different sets of materials to make the exact same thing, those two methods of production would have equivalent price points; T7 rises and T5 falls until they balance out.

In practice you’re going to have to do a collection to use the T7 chain (which has a price that people will pay to avoid, keeping those prices lower than the T5 chain), but have to take on a lot of risk to use the forge chain (which raises the relative price of the T7 chain); there will some balance between the two, and a difference between the price points of the two methods of production, but that’s not something you can do much more than speculate about.

Psientist.6437:

It is very inexpensive to stay relevant in Tyria and the cost eventually falls close to zero. As the player population matures, aggregate price becomes less relevant than the aggregate price of the most commonly traded goods. The collection of most commonly traded goods becomes more similar to the collection of luxury goods.

It’s a totally fair observation that as a MMO economy matures, more and more money gets directed at the highest end goods. When the game first launches leveling gear is in high demand and ‘starter exotics’ represented a big chunk of people’s expenditure; as time goes on a bigger share of the player base (or at least the active player base) have that stuff and start competing over the highest end goods. In that sense, we would have gotten to something resembling this state anyway – spending fighting over precursors while middle tier gear is sold below crafting costs.

To understand the effects of CE on markets now you’d have to look at what the people buying gold are using that gold on, and what the people selling gold would otherwise be spending that gold on. That’s what the (first order) effect, right now, of CE is (there’s also second and third order as the recipients of that spending, etc.)

Yes, there’s also a history effect – people have already bought certain precursors using CE and are no longer interested in buying more, etc – so if there’s a long run decline in prices CE would accelerate that too; I don’t know what would drive that in precursor markets though.

I see people asking for low cost high grind pre’s… I never thought that this is what was being asked for by the majority of people. I thought people were just wanting a way of obtaining them without having to rely on mystic forge RNG… and that part seems fair enough to me.

If they were to make pre’s too cheap to obtain then the T6 market etc. would spike and just make up that cost difference anyways, so I don’t see the point in that. If you were to make a high grind, then you could have spent that same time grinding for gold, so it doesn’t change things much and again I don’t see the point.

Aberrant.6749:

I see people asking for low cost high grind pre’s… I never thought that this is what was being asked for by the majority of people. I thought people were just wanting a way of obtaining them without having to rely on mystic forge RNG… and that part seems fair enough to me.

If they were to make pre’s too cheap to obtain then the T6 market etc. would spike and just make up that cost difference anyways, so I don’t see the point in that. If you were to make a high grind, then you could have spent that same time grinding for gold, so it doesn’t change things much and again I don’t see the point.

We have always had a non RNG way, buying them off of the trading post. So what people wanted is a new way with less cost and more grind.

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

Neural.1824:

Superfrick.1536:

To be honest, I feel betrayed. I’ve spent the better part of 3 years gathering the materials, throwing away crafted exotics and rares into the RNG pit and such for my legendary; failing at every turn and ready to walk away from the game forever.

I came back to the game with the promise that getting a precursor would be a journey and not be something else in the game attached to the gold standard pretty much anything else is. I got the $100 version of the game and translated 4,400 gems into gold to buy the T6 mats I still needed.

I expected a bunch of quests and kill X dudes that eventually got me account bound stuff that then let me make an account bound “The Legend”. But nope, it’s more time gated crafting and expensive material sinks.

I’m sorry you learned the hard way on this one. Arenanet isn’t going to make any changes that would affect the current transaction rates and prices on the Trading Post. You can fully expect to pay just as much gold to “craft” a precursor as you currently would to just buy one off the TP.

It’ll likely be less direct gold needed to get a precursor from the collections than buy off the TP. There will be a time element included which will bring the value of the collections in line with existing precursor prices.

This will depend on the precursor and if the materials required for each one will be the same or not. I can redirect you to my post with all the math about it, how selling the mats needed to craft Colossus (sell not buy) will net you ~400g. While the precursor itself is at 800g (so double the value of materials) What does that mean for a precursor that costs 190g on the TP? Is the difference between precursors going to be so huge?

And let’s say that indeed some precursor are very cheap compared to others. For how long? And how will they ensure the prices stay that way in the long run? (hint: they can’t, it’s a player driven market). I really doubt precursors that currently cost less than 200g will cost 200g to craft, while precursors that cost 1000g will require 1000g to craft, that would be just silly.

ANet has said they are going to add more weapons to each profession. What happens if they set the cost of making precursors to current prices so that a currently 200 gold precursor on the TP costs 200 gold to craft. But then they add it to another profession and suddenly it’s now worth 1000 gold, yet still only costs 200 gold to craft while the other 1000 gold precursors cost 1000 gold to craft? People are going to notice if one 1000 gold precursor costs 200 gold to craft and another costs 1000 gold. It will definitely affect the market.

Therodin.2970:

Aberrant.6749:

I see people asking for low cost high grind pre’s… I never thought that this is what was being asked for by the majority of people. I thought people were just wanting a way of obtaining them without having to rely on mystic forge RNG… and that part seems fair enough to me.

If they were to make pre’s too cheap to obtain then the T6 market etc. would spike and just make up that cost difference anyways, so I don’t see the point in that. If you were to make a high grind, then you could have spent that same time grinding for gold, so it doesn’t change things much and again I don’t see the point.

We have always had a non RNG way, buying them off of the trading post. So what people wanted is a new way with less cost and more grind.

How those were originally obtained was through forge RNG though. If the supply on a specific pre you want is very low, you’re going to either have to forge one out yourself or pay an exorbitant amount. I see that as a legitimate concern.

What less gold more grind does will just force you into doing specific grinds rather than just grinding out gold in whatever way you choose. If the grind is too easy then the T6 etc. part of making the legendary will go up in price to where there isn’t an overall price reduction.

People bringing up the term “grind” in relation to Precursor Crafting is losing track of what a grind actually is. Doing SW Chest farms for 15 hours a day is a grind. Killing every single Karka in Southsun is a grind. Traveling to remote locations once to satisfy a prerequisite is a Quest.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

People bringing up the term “grind” in relation to Precursor Crafting is losing track of what a grind actually is. Doing SW Chest farms for 15 hours a day is a grind. Killing every single Karka in Southsun is a grind. Traveling to remote locations once to satisfy a prerequisite is a Quest.

You’re missing the note on (paraphrased) “preserve the value of precursors” as a goal, and forcing players to spend money to earn the components. Granted, if it’s just a matter of Ascended materials being involved, ingots and planks aren’t terribly pricey, just time-limited. But as it stands, ANet is clearly wanting to avoid the kewkew of the miniscule number of people concerned with the named-exotic market.

It was about preserving not only the economy, but also the status of the luxury item that Precursors are.

On a side note, since I missed responding to the other topic in this thread: Gem -> Gold exchanges does not impact Precursor prices. In order for that to happen, you have to have a lot of players with an incredible amount of disposable income constantly feeding Anet’s coffers with Gem purchases. I would say with confidence that a very tiny percentage of the player population invests money into large amounts of Gems regularly, only to convert them to Gold. With the GW2 market being so large and dynamic, you’d have to have a cartel of thousands of players buying Gems for Gold just to ding the Precursors.

I’ve gotten numerous Precursors as drops in the past couple of months. With each one I sell, that eats away a tiny bit of the actual Demand for the items. By that, I mean that I’m fulfilling transactions of players who buy them for themselves to craft a Legendary.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

People bringing up the term “grind” in relation to Precursor Crafting is losing track of what a grind actually is. Doing SW Chest farms for 15 hours a day is a grind. Killing every single Karka in Southsun is a grind. Traveling to remote locations once to satisfy a prerequisite is a Quest.

Right. This part is fine, but as per the preview it looks like in addition to doing these quests you’ll also need a bunch of gold and expensive crafting materials.

Did anyone really expect Anet to just hand out precursors with no cost attached except time played?

Even if they did hand them away demand would shift to the the other mats. The mats would boom to 1-2+ gold a piece and then you’d have your wish of incremental progress farming thousands of ridiculously expensive mats that would also impact other crafted items. But hey, at least it isn’t gold right?

Aberrant.6749:

I see people asking for low cost high grind pre’s… I never thought that this is what was being asked for by the majority of people. I thought people were just wanting a way of obtaining them without having to rely on mystic forge RNG… and that part seems fair enough to me.

If they were to make pre’s too cheap to obtain then the T6 market etc. would spike and just make up that cost difference anyways, so I don’t see the point in that. If you were to make a high grind, then you could have spent that same time grinding for gold, so it doesn’t change things much and again I don’t see the point.

Thanks, thats exactly what I thoguht remembering the hundrets of threads where actually only rng was called as an issue and lierally noone ever complained about the price itself.
Even the most expensive pre’s cost less than 50% of a legendary. I don’t really understand why this thread is always shifted to the ‘I want it cheaper’ idea. Cheaper pre would mean cheaper legendary’s and we all now that anet since release never wanted to change that overall legendary price.

Bomber.3872:

Thanks, thats exactly what I thoguht remembering the hundrets of threads where actually only rng was called as an issue and lierally noone ever complained about the price itself.

You’re remembering wrong, there have been dozens, maybe hundreds, of threads about precursors being too expensive.

hazenvirus.8154:

Did anyone really expect Anet to just hand out precursors with no cost attached except time played?

Even if they did hand them away demand would shift to the the other mats. The mats would boom to 1-2+ gold a piece and then you’d have your wish of incremental progress farming thousands of ridiculously expensive mats that would also impact other crafted items. But hey, at least it isn’t gold right?

You forgot that you can buy t6 mats with laurels, and that’s what people will do (either to use themselves, or to sell).

Smooth Penguin.5294:

People bringing up the term “grind” in relation to Precursor Crafting is losing track of what a grind actually is. Doing SW Chest farms for 15 hours a day is a grind. Killing every single Karka in Southsun is a grind. Traveling to remote locations once to satisfy a prerequisite is a Quest.

Oh, please, it’s not tier 1 or 3 that people are complaining about. Those are fine. It’s the tier 2, which is wholly material based (as well as the cost of the crafting itself), that is being argued about.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

You forgot that you can buy t6 mats with laurels, and that’s what people will do (either to use themselves, or to sell).

That might help hold back prices for awhile, but what about lodestones, silver doubloons, ectos?

Bomber.3872:

Even the most expensive pre’s cost less than 50% of a legendary. I don’t really understand why this thread is always shifted to the ‘I want it cheaper’ idea. Cheaper pre would mean cheaper legendary’s and we all now that anet since release never wanted to change that overall legendary price.

I’ll repeat one more time:
If selling the mats (means you went and played the fun part to get those mats, no skipping of the fun part) required to make a legendary earns you enough money to buy the precursor on the TP and then leave you with lots of extra gold, then what’s the point of this new system?

maddoctor.2738:

Bomber.3872:

Even the most expensive pre’s cost less than 50% of a legendary. I don’t really understand why this thread is always shifted to the ‘I want it cheaper’ idea. Cheaper pre would mean cheaper legendary’s and we all now that anet since release never wanted to change that overall legendary price.

I’ll repeat one more time:
If selling the mats (means you went and played the fun part to get those mats, no skipping of the fun part) required to make a legendary earns you enough money to buy the precursor on the TP and then leave you with lots of extra gold, then what’s the point of this new system?

Having fun on the precursor journey?

Believe it or not, there are plenty of people around who enjoy traveling the world with a purpose in mind, collecting and crafting their own stuff, without caring about selling/rebuying for optimized coin gain.

Just like there are people enjoying knitting a sweater, even though they could get an quality industry-knit sweater at a fraction of what you have to pay for decent wool. Just like there are people baking their own bread when they can save all of the time (and depending on the recipe even some of the money) by picking up a similar loaf of bread from the bakery next door.

There’s a reason why I’ve enjoyed crafting my ascended Mawdrey, but still haven’t bothered getting a fractal capacitor, even though I have enough fractal relics and mist essences. Getting Masdrey was fun and took me all over the world. To me, spending my time on a fun scavenger hunt has a much higher value than grinding gold with the sole purpose of maximizing the amount of coin in my wallet. ymmv of course

Rasimir.6239:

maddoctor.2738:

Bomber.3872:

Even the most expensive pre’s cost less than 50% of a legendary. I don’t really understand why this thread is always shifted to the ‘I want it cheaper’ idea. Cheaper pre would mean cheaper legendary’s and we all now that anet since release never wanted to change that overall legendary price.

I’ll repeat one more time:
If selling the mats (means you went and played the fun part to get those mats, no skipping of the fun part) required to make a legendary earns you enough money to buy the precursor on the TP and then leave you with lots of extra gold, then what’s the point of this new system?

Having fun on the precursor journey?

Believe it or not, there are plenty of people around who enjoy traveling the world with a purpose in mind, collecting and crafting their own stuff, without caring about selling/rebuying for optimized coin gain.

Let’s say you don’t want to buy the precursor on the TP but instead you go on the fun journey to make the precursor yourself! You travel the world and complete various fun challenges, making the game much more fun and enjoyable in the process. The system works well so far.

Here is the tricky part, once you gather everything in order to craft your precursor, you realize that if you sell everything that is sellable, you will earn enough gold to buy the precursor and then have enough left-overs to begin a new one (!!!)

And to be a bit more exact, according to my calculations selling (not buying) all materials needed to craft the Colossus will net you ~400g, I used a lot of assumptions to reach that price but it doesn’t include the price to craft many of the items needed for the collection itself. For example, they tell us you will need to craft the container that will hold the oozes, you might need to craft the food for your ooze, and so on and so on. In other words, crafting the Colossus might well require materials that if you SELL them you will earn way more than 400g.

If all precursors are like that then the whole process is useless for any precursor that is worth below 400g. What’s the point in collecting materials that will give you 400g if the precursor itself is 200g, just sell the mats and BUY it instead of crafting it! The mats you got having fun and being on the journey btw.

Wanze.8410:

Iason Evan.3806:

Here’s how it is gonna play out: A player that wants Howler isn’t gonna do the precursor quest for Howler. They will do it for whatever precursor is the most expensive that they personally don’t want or like. They will sell that and buy the pre for Howler and have leftover money to put towards their T6 mats etc.

I thought a little more about this and i dont think its neccessarily a bad thing because it brings precursor prices more in line.

Expensive ones get produced amd sold more often and cheaper ones get bought more from the tp.

I get that and think you’re right. My issue with it is they designed account bound pre crafting around the TP instead of around being a better way for people to avoid RNG and have less frustration and more fun. Legendaries should be fun to do all the things for. It should be a good time. It shouldn’t devolve into “how can I make this thing with as little frustration as possible?” Unfortunately, that’s what it is.