Guild Wars 2

You could also look at it like this: The trinity is flawed.

While having a tank and healer is nice for the sake of tactics, they aren’t really needed nor do they really need DPS. So long as a tank has a few healers covering them the mobs will die eventually. Likewise, all the DPSs have to do is kittening annihilate everything ASAP to keep incoming DPS to a minimum.

The issue with this game is that since there is no dedicated healer/tank the most efficient route is to kittening annihilate everything with DPS. Hense why zerker is king of PvE. Hense why killing faster is more important than carrying people in timed bosses.

Pointless perspective in this thread but w/e.

" I just wish that other builds besides “ZERKER ONLY” could be as rewarding as DPS "

I agree with you xKole: very good observation.

weskay.9217:

TheDaiBish.9735:

If you want to play control / support orientated builds, why not start your own dungeon runs and post any build welcome?

I think this may support the OP’s reply to you: While that suggestion is a solution, I think it’s the general notion that no one should necessarily have to post that any build is welcome; it should be the norm, if that makes sense.

Not necessarily. After all, there will always be one or two group comps that are meta for particular content.

If the aim of the game for a group of players is to maximise efficiency – speedrunners, for example – then they’re going to want to play this meta.

This goal is in contrast to someone who wants to play a build of their choosing outside the meta – healing Elementalist, for example – or someone who doesn’t want to skip over trash mobs.

This is why “any build is welcome” will never be the ‘norm’ – different players have different goals.

weskay.9217:

It’s just unfortunate that it is not so. I work around that by choosing not to “LFG”. Instead, I just group up with guild mates and friends that share this notion. Once again, you shouldn’t necessarily have to avoid LFG, but that is just how it is as it stands.

Why does someone who wants to play a non-meta build have to avoid LFG?

Anyone can post a LFG request, and write in that description what they wish from that group.

xKole.9175:

So, I like to run dungeons, I just started doing Fractals, and I occasionally do some World Boss Farming. I’m a PvE player and these seem to be the best ways to get loot and have some fun group challenging content.

However… DPS, DPS, DPS. I get not having the holy trinity (feels like I’m swearing by saying “holy trinity” here) but seriously, everyone is just DPS, that’s it. It feels like there is zero versatility in PvE that can be taken seriously. Yes, you CAN do support builds, and yup, “control” builds too, I just wish that other builds besides “ZERKER ONLY” could be as rewarding as DPS. When I say rewarding I also mean having equal and/or reliable impact.

I can’t even blame all LFG descriptions saying “zerker only” because that is IN FACT the best and fastest way to get through a dungeon and get your reward.

I was just curious about the community’s opinion on this. Thanks

You’re complaining that the best way of doing things is the best way of doing things.

Here’s the catch : people want fast runs – fast runs need as much damage as possible.
People can pull this off because they can compensate for other possible issues through experience and practice. This was not possible when the game came out and we didn’t have the know-how necessary to do it. But now we can.

If you want to play your way you are welcome to do it – but so are the people who want to get things done fast.
Nobody cares about the content anymore – it’s all about the reward.

Also how can you make other sets have the “same or similar impact” you talk about when other sets have other advantages – significantly increasing your surviveability and giving you a much bigger margin of error.
You’re basically saying these sets should on top of making the game much easier also be as fast as completing as full glass? No thanks.

Yenn.9185:

Well, weapons and equipments are part of the build, as is traits and utilities. Just misunderstood semantics I suppose. It begs the question tho, why do we so many stat distribution when 90% of the players only use the top 3 (very rough estimates).

1.Various roles in PVE ( Teq, Wurm).
2.Critical roles in WvW and PvP.
3.People will always use the best way of doing things regardless of how many other options there are.

xKole.9175:

cranos.5913:

Being self sufficient is awesome. No more hours of waiting on that tank that will kitten up the fight for another hour straight. Not to mention how much passive play this is compared to the fast paced combat of gw2.

I guess as simply put as I can, I never feel like I have to try or think in a dungeon. I just hit enemies, then hit my support/control abilities depending on the enemy. “Oh a melee enemy! Auto, auto, blind, auto, blind, auto.” lol

Keeping yourself alive and well and out of trouble in this game is much better than just “I’m just going to do my rotation over here since these other guys are healing me and this one guy is going to handle the boss so I can just pretty much sleep it off”.

Self-sufficiency is the best thing GW2 brought to the table.

xKole.9175:

However… DPS, DPS, DPS. I get not having the holy trinity (feels like I’m swearing by saying “holy trinity” here) but seriously, everyone is just DPS, that’s it. It feels like there is zero versatility in PvE that can be taken seriously. Yes, you CAN do support builds, and yup, “control” builds too, I just wish that other builds besides “ZERKER ONLY” could be as rewarding as DPS. When I say rewarding I also mean having equal and/or reliable impact.

Why do think that “specing for DPS”, which is a rather loose concept anyways, rules out things like support and control?

I play mostly Ele in dungeons, sometimes also Warrior, Guardian or Thief, if it benefits the group and Guardian exclusively in FotM. For each of these classes I use at least 2-3 different builds (that is, different weapons/skills/traits) of which all of them can be considered being “meta”.
These builds range from very support oriented (e.g. PS Warrior, FotM Hammer Guard) to max personal DPS (e.g. Staff Ele), but ALL OF THEM bring some kind of group support in form of utility (stealth, reflects, blinds, blocks, might stacking, perma fury/protection etc.) and/or control (frostbow #5, pistol whip, headshot, ring of warding etc.) to a varying degree.

The fact that I use Berserker´s/Assassin´s gear in all of these builds changes nothing about that. Choice of weapons, utility skills and traits impacts the way I play and what I bring to my party much more than the gear I use.

Gear/stats are more like a “difficulty slider” in PvE. More defense makes combat more forgiving most of the times (!), but comes at cost of increased time to kill things. Less defense rewards you with faster content completion (again, most of the times), but requires you to pay more attention to things such as positioning, dodging, block/evade/invuln timings etc..

The only meaningful thing about play-style that is determined by your choice of gear/stats right now, is the type of damage you deal: Direct damage vs. Conditions.
The fact that condis are almost always an inferior choice to power builds in PvE (aside from e.g. dungeon solos and most open world stuff) is the only imbalance regarding stats I see in this game. Anet already seems to acknowledge that and I think/hope that by the time HoT comes out this wont be as big of an issue anymore.

tl;dr: Screw you, read all of it! Do it now!!

xKole.9175:

segman.3560:

you cant be a tank both in gw1 and gw2 because you have no control over mob aggro;

- forcing roles in party is going to limit, not extend players options;
- gear is not a build;
- you are not forced to play with zerk speedrunners, if you do so its your choice;
- make your own lfg;
- there are many trinity games, try them if you want to experience build/group limitations;
- learn to play;

is there anything I forgot? there should be a pin-up on forums for trinity whiners with all the answers in one place so we dont need to answer them all the time

btw you’re talking about dungeons not general pve; go open world, the amount of 111111111 versatility is amazing and you can kill dragons with any gear there

Thank you for the maturity. Anet actually said that their is 3 roles to play. DPS, support, and control. However DPS is GOD in this game by far as voted by the player base and to be honest for good reason. Not asking to force roles, just wanting control and support builds/specs to be more reasonable and rewarding ways to play. I like doing dungeons, and yes btw there ALREADY is forced roles. I mean role* DPS.

Control is broken because of the current system of defiant we have in place. Also control is never going to be a serious thing for the majority of players unless they rework it (which they are) since it’s a pretty “all or nothing” deal.

But consider this:

Do a fotm or dungeon run with full zerker but no might stacking.
Do a fotm or dungeon run with a might stacking ele ( or even a PS warrior) and you will immediately notice how important that support is.

Use Icebow #5 on a boss and see how effective that CC is.

xKole.9175:

maddoctor.2738:

xKole.9175:

Ashen.2907:

xKole.9175:

Well put, with everyone being self-sufficient I don’t ever feel like anyone relies on anyone for anything except “hit that thing.”

your groups arent using:

Reflection
Blind
Protection
Cleanse
Might
Fury
Etc?

Of course, but that doesn’t change the fact that EVERYONE ONLY specializes in damage. That doesn’t add versatility in my opinion. It’s just (necessary) filler between DAMAGES. lol

Actually no they are not specializing only in damage. Simply because you don’t understand it doesn’t make it so. All those above mentioned by Ashen (and there are even more) are essential for an optimal run and none are actually dealing damage.

What would NOT add versatility, is having one character control, one character support, and three dps, where exactly is the versatility there? By allowing everyone to fill multiple roles at the same time you have more versatility overall, not less.

The only thing that is missing, and there is slight problem there, is gear stats. The fact that you can control/support equally well in Berserker gear and with any other type of gear. Gear != Build, your skills and traits define your build, a Warrior using Phalanx Strength plays differently to a Warrior using pure Damage spec, yet they both use Berserker Gear. An Elementalist using Staff plays a lot differently to a D/F Elementalist, although, once again, they both use Berserker gear.

But even then, let’s ask ourselves, do we really want to LIMIT roles to specific gear stats? Do you really want to force someone to change their stats in order to Support or Control properly? Wouldn’t that actually LIMIT versatility and build choice instead of increasing it?

Like I said, though… They are NECESSARY filler between damage. No one is specializing in these things. They just have them in their builds and use them between dealing damage (at opportune times of course). There is a MASSIVE lack in creativity (versatility) in effective builds because they HAVE to include damage, damage, and some damage. Regardless of the damage you deal, those buffs will come with your build. Why not have these DPS players NOT have access to buffs AS MUCH as players who want to play a support role? Everyone is literally doing the same thing, dealing damage, and throwing down your boons and conditions. Everyone has everything ALL THE TIME. That’s what I mean by specialization. Not one build TRULY stands out like doing DPS, and throwing in your conditions and boons when applicable.

so, basically, you do NOT want diverse gameplay, but I doubt you will understand this.

yolo swaggins.2570:

You could also look at it like this: The trinity is flawed.

While having a tank and healer is nice for the sake of tactics, they aren’t really needed nor do they really need DPS. So long as a tank has a few healers covering them the mobs will die eventually. Likewise, all the DPSs have to do is kittening annihilate everything ASAP to keep incoming DPS to a minimum.

The issue with this game is that since there is no dedicated healer/tank the most efficient route is to kittening annihilate everything with DPS. Hense why zerker is king of PvE. Hense why killing faster is more important than carrying people in timed bosses.

I play Pve: i see it and experience it. Very Good explanation: that is what xKole is saying.

Hes talking about the berserker stats not the skills that help others which give max 10% more bonus if you spec for full healer which is pointless.

BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

winterchillz.2564:

BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

oxtred.7658:

winterchillz.2564:

BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I know you all love me

oxtred.7658:

winterchillz.2564:

BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

pS: Guides on youtube, guides on Dungeon Forum, Create your own group, l2p, yadayada…

You have to make a difference between build and gear.

Most current meta builds for pve are actually support builds.

You have stuff like PS Warriors, Thieves for stealth skips, Guards with reflections and endless blocks, Rangers with Forst Spirit and Spotter, etc.

The point is: utility doesnt scale with stats.
So while there are lots of support builds used, they dont need any specific items and usually go damage because, well why not?

Also: you can always make your own group with your own rules.
Even if I am really tired of borderline kittened noobs I do not run/join Zerk only or AP gated parties.

segman.3560:

you cant be a tank both in gw1 and gw2 because you have no control over mob aggro;

You could totally tank in GW1. The AI worked there the way it does here. If you blocked line of sight, the enemies will all run round a corner and clump up in an attempt to attack you. This is how we get stacking in GW2.

However, the difference in GW1, was that you had a physical presence (as did mobs). Whereas everybody can move freeform in GW2, in GW1 mobs couldn’t move through players, and players couldn’t move through mobs (and in PvP, players couldn’t move through players either). This meant, that you could cornerblock in GW1.

It was exactly like stacking in GW2, except instead of having the entire party on the same spot round the corner, you’d just have your tank there. The mobs will run into him first, and, due to being unable to move through him, would just all stop and attack him. The rest of the team would be further back. The tank could throw out the odd melee AoE while rotating defensive enchantments and stances, while the rest of the party nuked the enemy stack that was stuck on the tank from a safe distance behind the tank (positioned in such a way that they’d have to move through the tank to get to them, which they couldn’t do, and the AI was too stupid to move around him).

By adding a bodyblocking feature in GW2 also, you’d be surprised how many problems they’d fix. It’s funny really because they probably removed it to stop this very tactic, only for it to re-emerge in a different form – the entire group stacking and sharing defensive buffs – like we see in dungeons in GW2 today.

Sorin.4310:

There isn’t a specialization as effective as damage, but I’m not sure there can be. Without the original trinity, most of the focus has to be DPS. How could a control build compete with DPS? And I don’t mean within the possible control in the game. I mean how could you change control to be as effective as DPS?

Isn’t this why we are getting the break-bar with HoT though?
The idea being that you can just sit there and have everyone DPS, but that it’s actually faster and more efficient (and therefore, optimal), to knock out the break-bar first, and then kill it.

For example, when the break-bar cracks, the boss takes 50% more damage. So you could just have a full team of ‘zerkers whacking away, but it’d be much faster (and therefore more efficient) to have one guy specced not ‘zerker, but mass CC in order to crack that break-bar as often as possible. The result being 4x ’zerkers and 1x CC’er clears the content faster and more efficiently than 5x ’zerkers would.

Support is a bit trickier to address, but then, as others have pointed out, we sorta already have that a functional, efficient, and at times, optimal, role in a dungeon team via might/vulnerability stacking, reflects, stat boosts, and stealth fields.

KotCR.6024:

Sorin.4310:

There isn’t a specialization as effective as damage, but I’m not sure there can be. Without the original trinity, most of the focus has to be DPS. How could a control build compete with DPS? And I don’t mean within the possible control in the game. I mean how could you change control to be as effective as DPS?

Isn’t this why we are getting the break-bar with HoT though?
The idea being that you can just sit there and have everyone DPS, but that it’s actually faster and more efficient (and therefore, optimal), to knock out the break-bar first, and then kill it.

For example, when the break-bar cracks, the boss takes 50% more damage. So you could just have a full team of ‘zerkers whacking away, but it’d be much faster (and therefore more efficient) to have one guy specced not ‘zerker, but mass CC in order to crack that break-bar as often as possible. The result being 4x ’zerkers and 1x CC’er clears the content faster and more efficiently than 5x ’zerkers would.

Support is a bit trickier to address, but then, as others have pointed out, we sorta already have that a functional, efficient, and at times, optimal, role in a dungeon team via might/vulnerability stacking, reflects, stat boosts, and stealth fields.

Please explain how Zerker gear reduces your CC.

Because I can totally run a hammer or mace with Zerk gear, and why wouldnt I?
You cant increase your CC with items.

KotCR.6024:

For example, when the break-bar cracks, the boss takes 50% more damage. So you could just have a full team of ‘zerkers whacking away, but it’d be much faster (and therefore more efficient) to have one guy specced not ‘zerker, but mass CC in order to crack that break-bar as often as possible. The result being 4x ’zerkers and 1x CC’er clears the content faster and more efficiently than 5x ’zerkers would.

Support is a bit trickier to address, but then, as others have pointed out, we sorta already have that a functional, efficient, and at times, optimal, role in a dungeon team via might/vulnerability stacking, reflects, stat boosts, and stealth fields.

That’s already in game, it just that pug and bad player don’t use them.

We already use D/P Thief to manage defiance, now it will be more useful.

We ALWAYS bring support. We always have might/vulnerability stacking. In about half the dungeon/fractal we bring reflect, we always bring stats boost and in the majority we bring stealth field.

What you are talking about is already well established in the game by good team, but pugs have a hard time keeping up and using more advanced technic that’s all. Of course, the system can be improve (the cc bar seem like half an improvement) and better design in encounter will always be well received (dungeon like Arah and fractals were a wide variety of support is way better than easy dps only dungeon like CoF).

The largest effect your stats have is on the speed of your battle. Zerker is higher DPS at higher risk of dying, so fighting goes quick. Tankier builds are lower DPS at lower risk of dying, making fights slower, which is undesirable for speedrunners.

Stop associating armor stats with the rest of build design. There is plenty of build diversity in weapons/traits/skills that need to be adjusted for different situations.

We are getting taunt and stuff think they are trying to change thinks up in this zerg only meta.

Killface.1896:

We are getting taunt and stuff think they are trying to change thinks up in this zerg only meta.

Taunt won’t change a thing about zerker or not. The only thing that may change it is the fixing condition in PvE. This will change from zerker meta to zerker/assassin/sinister/rampager meta. In the end, it will still be 3 offensives stats.

DarkSyze.8627:

" I just wish that other builds besides “ZERKER ONLY” could be as rewarding as DPS "

I agree with you xKole: very good observation.

Berserker is a stat type. Builds are defined by the weapon and trait selection. Go to the dungeon build section of meta battle. The builds are named after the key traits or weapons they use. The gear is interchangeable based on your personal survivability need. Berserker is just the recommended gear set for skilled players since skilled players rely on blocks, blinds, evasion and reflects to survive and not gear.

hybrid.5027:

DarkSyze.8627:

" I just wish that other builds besides “ZERKER ONLY” could be as rewarding as DPS "

I agree with you xKole: very good observation.

Berserker is a stat type. Builds are defined by the weapon and trait selection. Go to the dungeon build section of meta battle. The builds are named after the key traits or weapons they use. The gear is interchangeable based on your personal survivability need. Berserker is just the recommended gear set for skilled players since skilled players rely on blocks, blinds, evasion and reflects to survive and not gear.

There is no skill stuff die that fast you dont need to dodge at all if all are using meta builds and you have aegis and blind up anyways,if you do it in low damage party it can get hard as you need to dodge and stuff and big hits will 1-2hit you just like they do with zerg gear.

Killface.1896:

There is no skill stuff die that fast you dont need to dodge at all if all are using meta builds and you have aegis and blind up anyways,if you do it in low damage party it can get hard as you need to dodge and stuff and big hits will 1-2hit you just like they do with zerg gear.

What did I just read?

IKR. English is not my native language, but at least I try to make it intelligible lol. My guess is that he can’t survive if his group is not all zerker because if mobs don’t die quick enough he die. Standard zerker pug problem.

learn to play issue, seems to me

Killface.1896:

There is no skill stuff die that fast you dont need to dodge at all if all are using meta builds and you have aegis and blind up anyways,if you do it in low damage party it can get hard as you need to dodge and stuff and big hits will 1-2hit you just like they do with zerg gear.

Skoigoth.9238:

Killface.1896:

There is no skill stuff die that fast you dont need to dodge at all if all are using meta builds and you have aegis and blind up anyways,if you do it in low damage party it can get hard as you need to dodge and stuff and big hits will 1-2hit you just like they do with zerg gear.

I find the damage-oriented gearing meta boring, as the sheer amount of frontloaded damage output is enough to negate most of the bosses threatening mechanics by simply killing it before those abilities get off cooldown. If everyone is using a meta build and assuming good party composition, and you use proper active defense, you don’t need to dodge as other forms of damage mitigations are enough. If, however, one does it in a non meta party, the difficulty goes up as the boss do have time to use his abilities, and you may run out of active defence. I’m stating the obvious and never went out of AC.

^^^^ translation

Party wide support and control is very important and necessary. It’s just that a non-dps build offers the same support and control a dps build does.

Altair.8402:

Party wide support and control is very important and necessary. It’s just that a non-dps build offers the same support and control a dps build does.

This is so accurate.

However, do you not see this as an issue at all?

xKole.9175:

Altair.8402:

Party wide support and control is very important and necessary. It’s just that a non-dps build offers the same support and control a dps build does.

This is so accurate.

However, do you not see this as an issue at all?

If it means we’ll have the standard MMO trinity otherwise, then I don’t see this as an issue. With that said, I’m not opposed to equipment that gives things like boon duration or CC duration.

Kicking myself for getting dragged into another one of these threads, but one thing that I think is worth pointing out is the large discrepancy in… “build feedback loops,” I guess is the best term for it.

It’s been pointed out many times that the Berserker’s (or it’s praternal twin Assassin’s) gear is a “perfect stat combo:” The high power makes you hit harder, the precision makes you crit more often, and the power and ferocity makes those frequent crits monumental.

But another important part of the equation (that gets discussed with less frequency) is the multitude of easily accessible Damage Percentile Modifiers. Every class has access to a notable collection of Damage Modifier Traits (that trigger under varying circumstances), as well a number of different Percentile Sigils (Force, Slaying, Night), utility consumables (Slaying Potions), and a variety of different Runes based on desired level of reliability vs reward (Strength, Flame Legion, Scholar, etc…).

Add in the fact that these multipliers are Multiplicative rather than Additive and you can see how quickly things begin to spiral: on a Guardian for example, I can easily get an additional 49.5% increase to my DPS without even really trying: (7 trait points: 2 in Zeal for Fiery Wrath, 5 in radiance for Powerful Blades and Radiant Power, a Sigil of Force, Runes of the Flame Legion). You’ll note here that I’m not using any consumables, nor am I using any of the more persnickety Runes or Sigils (no Night Sigils, No Slaying Sigils, no Runes of the Scholar), and I still have another 7 trait points (out of the 14 total you get), that I can use to either grab more Percentile Modifiers (like Zealous Blade for 5% on my greatsword for weapon swaps) or on support traits like Master of Consecrations and Superior Aria.
* For those who are curious, if we swap Flame Legion for Scholars, and include a Sigil of Night/Slaying and a Potion of Slaying, that increase becomes a whopping 86% increase (77% if I’m on my Greatsword instead of my Sword)— and again, this is from Modifiers alone. This isn’t even touching the damage difference between Berserkers Stats and other Stat combinations. *

If you compare all this to Healing Percentile Modifiers: there’s only a single trait (Acquatic Benevolence, which is accessible only to elementalists), a single Sigil (which, by the way is a “stack on kill” sigil much like bloodlust, which means one must perform the same “perfect active defenses” of a zerker, or they lose the bonus), a single Rune set (Rune of the Monk), and a single consumable (those Rice Balls from the Lunar New Year Event). To the best of our knowledge, _these Modifiers (unlike damage modifiers) are Additive, rather than Multiplicative, so if you combine all these you get an increase of 57.5% for Elementalists and 32.5% for all other classes. But keep in mind that these modifiers affect outgoing heals only.

Add on to that the fact that, despite some outliers, the majority of Traits and Utilities Scale terribly with the Healing Power stat (and the HP stat doesn’t synergize with any other stats anywhere near to the extent that Power, Precision, and Ferocity do) and suddenly there’s a very large “Why bother?” factor.

Defensively the picture is very similar. As far as defensive modifiers go, Potions of Slaying provide a damage reduction equal to their offensive bonus, Guardians have the Signet of Judgement, and there are a handful of Traits that either decrease damage or trigger defensive effects when certain conditions are met (take a certain percentage of your total Hit Points in one hit, negatively impact your enemies if you get hit with a Crowd Control effect, take less damage/deal a large attack if your health drops below a certain threshold, etc…). Finally there are several Rune Sets that have a chance to trigger condi clears, healing, or boons upon being hit, and or, most notably gain a boon, effect, or offensive ability when your health drops below a certain threshold (Rune of the Forgeman is probably my favorite in this category: Protection and AoE bruning when hit beneath 20% Health).

But you can see a vast distinction between the offensive options and defensive options: 1) There are far more Damage Increasing Modifiers than there are Damage Decreasing Modifiers, and 2) Damage Percentile Modifiers are generally up a signifcant amount of the time, whereas Defensive Traits only kick in when you’re health is beneath a certain threshold (a few are 90%, but the vast majority come into play when you’re at 25% or lower making them… less than useful a majority of the time). 3) Last but not least, Percentile Damage Modifiers kick in as soon as their conditions are met, whereas the Defensive Abilities from Traits and Runes tend to have (very long) Internal Cool Downs attached to them.

In a nutshell, it is far easier and far more effective to collect/stack damage bonuses than it is to try and stack either Healing or Defensive bonuses.

Finally, factor in the that the game is currently designed around bursts of massive spike damage (that don’t give two kittens about how much Toughness you have), while most Healing Traits and Utilities (barring the #6 Healing Skills) are based around gradual regeneration (which more often than not is woefully ineffective at keeping up with an enemy’s attack rotations).

This makes it easy to see how we end up in a situation where player’s who build for damage can easily Support as well as anyone who builds for Support, but player’s who build for Support cannot hope to keep up with those who build for damage, and it’s obvious why the meta is shaped the way it is.

xKole.9175:

Altair.8402:

Party wide support and control is very important and necessary. It’s just that a non-dps build offers the same support and control a dps build does.

This is so accurate.

However, do you not see this as an issue at all?

No. Because Altair made a mistake. He say : ‘’non-dps build offers the same support and control as a dps build does’’ and that’s not true.

The reality is that non-dps ’’GEAR’’ offers the same support and control as a dps ’’GEAR’’ does.

I wants a dps only build on my guardian? I’ll go 6/6/2/0/0 with GS + Sw/Torch with Signet of bane, Smite Condition and Sword of Justice.

If I want a support build on my guardian? I’ll go 3/5/0/4/2 with Hammer + Mace/Focus with Wall of Reflect, Purging Flames and Retreat.

See the difference. Same gear, but not the same build. And btw, nobody is using a full dps build on a guardian, most ppl are using support build.

I wonder which class the OP is playing. This whole thread could be (very likely) a l2p issue.

xKole.9175:

Altair.8402:

Party wide support and control is very important and necessary. It’s just that a non-dps build offers the same support and control a dps build does.

This is so accurate.

However, do you not see this as an issue at all?

By “build” I hope you mean gear stats. Because trait-wise and skill-wise those that offer party wide support and control ARE losing some of their personal DPS. A PS Warrior for example provides excellent buffing of Might while sacrificing a lot of their own potential DPS. They are no longer a pure DPS build, and the same is true for so many others.

Now about the need for gear stats. No, I don’t see it as a problem at all. Why? Because if you made certain stats a requirement to Support/Control properly it would force people to have multiple gear stats and Ascended is already expensive for one set, imagine requiring more.

And second, it ruins player versatility. Now I can switch build in an instant (and it’s completely free) so I can use appropriate skills for each encounter. Making me versatile for every encounter, key word versatility. If you tie those skills on specific stats to be effective then I’d need to fill my inventory with different gear sets for each encounter, I find that highly annoying, having to switch stats for each encounter

Just imagine playing a Guardian where your Wall of Reflection is useful only if you have Toughness, your condi cleansing only works with high Healing Power, your Boon sharing benefits way more with Boon Duration, etc, you’d need 3-4 sets on that Guardian just to be optimal for each encounter. Why limit player choice and versatility?

My question is, even if all these other stats became more viable, why would you want to use them? I don’t find any joy in dodging/repositioning for an additional 60 seconds or more per fight. This is speaking to dungeons of course. Going in to random groups and realizing from the outset that even with the support being brought things are going to be on the slow roll isn’t exciting. Some fights are designed to take a bit longer, but most of the dungeon encounters just become tedious when they go long. The boss usually only has two attacks or so, and it gets repetitive.

Right now control builds have an excellent place because they still put out dps, allow others to dps more effectively, and make the run faster. What would be the fun of being able to stand there and soak up more damage just for the sake of being different and making the run take longer than necessary?

What I DO want to see, what many others want to see, and what seems to be coming with DoT stacks being able to go higher come HoT as well as the “fractional fix” that has already gone into place, is more viability being given to true condition builds that increase duration. I don’t think this game should ever be about healing yourself or your party over and over dragging out the fights, or about tank and spanks where one person gets all the attention.

xKole.9175:

Altair.8402:

Party wide support and control is very important and necessary. It’s just that a non-dps build offers the same support and control a dps build does.

This is so accurate.

However, do you not see this as an issue at all?

No not at all. Your role is defined primarily by variables you can change “on the fly” which IMO makes it far more fun. What is good about having to bring along multiple sets of armor to fill different roles on the same character?

Your gears primary function in this game is simply the sliding scale of offense and defense. Of course it has a bit more complexity to it than a linear scale but still that’s basically what it is. And it performs it’s function perfectly.

Your role comes mainly from trait/weapon/utility skills and with a lesser degree sigil/runes.

Arkinos.7245:

KotCR.6024:

Sorin.4310:

There isn’t a specialization as effective as damage, but I’m not sure there can be. Without the original trinity, most of the focus has to be DPS. How could a control build compete with DPS? And I don’t mean within the possible control in the game. I mean how could you change control to be as effective as DPS?

Isn’t this why we are getting the break-bar with HoT though?
The idea being that you can just sit there and have everyone DPS, but that it’s actually faster and more efficient (and therefore, optimal), to knock out the break-bar first, and then kill it.

For example, when the break-bar cracks, the boss takes 50% more damage. So you could just have a full team of ‘zerkers whacking away, but it’d be much faster (and therefore more efficient) to have one guy specced not ‘zerker, but mass CC in order to crack that break-bar as often as possible. The result being 4x ’zerkers and 1x CC’er clears the content faster and more efficiently than 5x ’zerkers would.

Support is a bit trickier to address, but then, as others have pointed out, we sorta already have that a functional, efficient, and at times, optimal, role in a dungeon team via might/vulnerability stacking, reflects, stat boosts, and stealth fields.

Please explain how Zerker gear reduces your CC.

Because I can totally run a hammer or mace with Zerk gear, and why wouldnt I?
You cant increase your CC with items.

Please explain where i said “’zerker gear” specifically.

Read it again. Pretty sure the word I used was “specced”, which is short for specialised, which usually refers to Trait setup. I.E. a ’zerker specced player is one who goes for pumping out as much personal DPS as possible (as opposed to say, a support specced player which would be a PS Warrior with Banners, for example).

Though, come to think of it, yes, in that case, actually Boon Duration equipment/food is a thing too, like I guess you could argue CC-lengthening equipment/food could be a thing for a CC spec. Gear might be a thing there too, for example a guy specialising in CC procs might be better off with Assassin’s gear for the higher critical chance (and therefore more reliable Crit procs) than ’zerker gear.

So in the example I used, instead of having one player focused on traits that maximise DPS, you have the one player focused on traits to max out his CC output to bring the break-bar down as fast as possible.

Though chances are, you knew what I meant in the first place, and you were just being obnoxious about it.

Your role is defined primarily by variables you can change “on the fly” which IMO makes it far more fun. What is good about having to bring along multiple sets of armor to fill different roles on the same character?

Your gears primary function in this game is simply the sliding scale of offense and defense. Of course it has a bit more complexity to it than a linear scale but still that’s basically what it is. And it performs it’s function perfectly.

Your role comes mainly from trait/weapon/utility skills and with a lesser degree sigil/runes.

• Note:(not quoting to single poster out, just a good example of an argument many individuals in this thread are making)

This is true.

However those arguing that “Gear Choice” and “Build Choice” or “Role” are entirely separate things quite conveniently side-step a very large point, and what I think is the crux of the discontent with “PvE Versatility” (to quote the thread title).

As things currently stand, only those who wear DPS based Gear/Runes/Sigils get to change their role “on the fly.”

As has been pointed out many times, the “core” of Support in GW2 comes from Utilities like Wall of Reflection, Feedback, or Frost Spirit, and from traits like Phalanx Strength, Spotter, or Pure of Voice.

If a player geared for DPS switches out Traits, Utilities, or Weapons to be more supportive, they can do so with only a minor drop in DPS (sorry for another Guardian example, but if I recall a perma-protection Hammer Build is only about a 10% dps drop from the conventional GS/Sword set-up).

If a player wearing just about any other stat set up switches out their Support Utilities, Weapons, or Traits to more Damage oriented ones, they’ll technically see an increase in damage, but in reality they’re now just running around with comparably inadequate damage and a bunch of stats that aren’t being used.

The freedom to change “on the fly” is one of the best parts of Guild Wars 2 and should absolutely be preserved, but right now that freedom is one sided: “DPS” can “Support,” but “Support” cannot “DPS.”

Edited to Add: I’ve seen many people on the “pro-zerker meta” side of the argument accuse those who desire more a Supportive playstyles as greedy and “wanting it all.” But I think it’s entirely fair to turn that question (well, it’s usually an accusation, but I’m turning it into a question) on its head: why should DPS geared players get to “have it all?”
Right now all the strongest Support in the game (Reflects, Absorbs, Cleanses, Blinds, Blocks, etc…) require basically no stat investment at all. So yes, in this system DPS hungry players get to have their cake and eat it too. Why should this be so?

KotCR.6024:

Arkinos.7245:

KotCR.6024:

Sorin.4310:

There isn’t a specialization as effective as damage, but I’m not sure there can be. Without the original trinity, most of the focus has to be DPS. How could a control build compete with DPS? And I don’t mean within the possible control in the game. I mean how could you change control to be as effective as DPS?

Isn’t this why we are getting the break-bar with HoT though?
The idea being that you can just sit there and have everyone DPS, but that it’s actually faster and more efficient (and therefore, optimal), to knock out the break-bar first, and then kill it.

For example, when the break-bar cracks, the boss takes 50% more damage. So you could just have a full team of ‘zerkers whacking away, but it’d be much faster (and therefore more efficient) to have one guy specced not ‘zerker, but mass CC in order to crack that break-bar as often as possible. The result being 4x ’zerkers and 1x CC’er clears the content faster and more efficiently than 5x ’zerkers would.

Support is a bit trickier to address, but then, as others have pointed out, we sorta already have that a functional, efficient, and at times, optimal, role in a dungeon team via might/vulnerability stacking, reflects, stat boosts, and stealth fields.

Please explain how Zerker gear reduces your CC.

Because I can totally run a hammer or mace with Zerk gear, and why wouldnt I?
You cant increase your CC with items.

Please explain where i said “’zerker gear” specifically.

Read it again. Pretty sure the word I used was “specced”, which is short for specialised, which usually refers to Trait setup. I.E. a ’zerker specced player is one who goes for pumping out as much personal DPS as possible (as opposed to say, a support specced player which would be a PS Warrior with Banners, for example).

Though, come to think of it, yes, in that case, actually Boon Duration equipment/food is a thing too, like I guess you could argue CC-lengthening equipment/food could be a thing for a CC spec. Gear might be a thing there too, for example a guy specialising in CC procs might be better off with Assassin’s gear for the higher critical chance (and therefore more reliable Crit procs) than ’zerker gear.

So in the example I used, instead of having one player focused on traits that maximise DPS, you have the one player focused on traits to max out his CC output to bring the break-bar down as fast as possible.

Though chances are, you knew what I meant in the first place, and you were just being obnoxious about it.

“Zerker” means gear, dude, and you have your own personal definition and call him obnoxious because he doesn’t know what your made up definition is? Really? How is he supposed to know that you cannot communicate properly and that he should “know” what you meant?

The bottom line is that every build you see in the metabattle.com dungeon build meta section is a support build that recommends berserker gear. You can run those builds and use whatever gear you want, it is the traits, weapon choices and utility skills that are what really matter.

Yeah, it’s a horrible design that results in incredibly stale and inflexible gameplay.

We have so much apparent “choice”, but most of the apparent “choices” are just red herrings, in group PVE situations, as it has all been boiled down to Zerker, max DPS build and skip>stack(in the same spot, every single time)>melee.

I can see why they did it – they did it so groups wouldn’t have to wait for a tank/healer, which was an admirable goal.

However, due to the very restrictive and unbalanced gameplay/class design (i.e. too much stacking for buffs and melee having more DPS potential than ranged), it just doesn’t work, as people have reduced it to a cheesefest.

Tigaseye.2047:

Yeah, it’s a horrible design that results in incredibly stale and inflexible gameplay.

We have so much apparent “choice”, but most of the apparent “choices” are just red herrings, in group PVE situations, as it has all been boiled down to Zerker, max DPS build and skip>stack(in the same spot, every single time)>melee.

I can see why they did it – they did it so groups wouldn’t have to wait for a tank/healer, which was an admirable goal.

However, due to the very restrictive and unbalanced gameplay/class design (i.e. too much stacking for buffs and melee having more DPS potential than ranged), it just doesn’t work, as people have reduced it to a cheesefest.

So when I say “all the meta builds are support builds” do you think I am lying or do you think I am simply wrong? Because if I am wrong, please show me the meta build that is max DPS and not a support build.

If, on the other hand, I am right, will you change your opinion? Or will you just ignore that your fact were wrong and not allow that to affect your opinion.

When someone accused Keynes of flip-flopping on an issue he said “when I get new facts I change my mind, what do YOU do?” I could raise the question here to you. I have shown you to be in error, so will you admit it and change or will you pretend that I am wrong, or will you admit it but then keep your old conclusion and rationalize it some other way?

hybrid.5027:

How is he supposed to know that you cannot communicate properly and that he should “know” what you meant?

By not skipping ahead and reading the post properly and in context, by, ooo, I don’t know, looking at the post I quoted (that’s the point of the feature), so you get it in the correct context.
If you read the quote on my original comment (and had been actually following and reading the thread, like you really should – it’s not like it’s 100 pages long or anything), what I meant was perfectly clear. Unless somebody was just stupid.

Sorin’s previous posts were focusing on just that.
But if you still feel you didn’t understand what was being said, well, you do now at least, so there should be no further point me having to explain.

OP sounds like random forum poster #326230863 demanding forced diversity via trinity

move along folks, nothing to see here

Krestfallen.8025:

Your mistake is to think that there is support gear.

There is only offensive stats and defensive stats. (healing power is half support/half defensive).

If i’m with my soldier gear, my trade off from zerker gear is less dps for more survivability. After that I can have a support build or a dps build.

What you are poiting at specifically is that defensive support is better than passive defense.

You gonna lose a lot of dps if you want a passive defense build (Aka Soldier gear or such). But you gonna lose almost no dps if you get that survivability with support (block, protection, blind, reflection, etc). So what you are saying is that active defense/support is better than defensive stats and you like that. And we gonna respond that, you are right. It’s better and it’s the reason you like this game because we like active defense a lot more than passive defense. It give a better gameplay.

Krestfallen.8025:

<snip>

TL: DR)
1. Support gear doesn’t really exist
2. I forgot to put “potential” on the stat being a sliding scale. A fully traited/weapon/utility dps focus will give more with zerk gear than PVT, but the same can be said on the flip side with defense.
3. GW2 does exacerbate the situation of a defense cap with the active defense, but if you want to get rid of that, well, kindly kitten off because that’s what makes this game great.

Ok, to elaborate. Support gear the only stat that is supportive (excluding the waste of time givers gear set) is Healing Power. Which has purposefully been made mediocre to avoid the trinity being the overbearing thing it is in most games. With that, how often are these “support” players using Zealots? Naw it’s typically a stat set ike clerics where it’s paired with a tanky stat, which makes their lives easier but doesn’t really help the team in most cases. If there were gear that had substantial boon duration stats, or maybe an empowered boon stat making things like say might double it’s effectiveness with a stat focus on that, then we’d be looking at supportive stats, but as it stands they don’t really exist and it’s certainly not the only focus of people who utilize healing power.

Either way though, to say that a PVT guy can’t go “DPS” is incorrect, sure he’ll never match a zerker, but he’ll also never be as glassy either. You’re choosing your potential your base stats when you choose your gear. From there you choose your play style picking the skills you want and how you want those skills to be boosted. A zerk geared AH guard isn’t going to survive nearly as well as a Nomads AH guard, but likewise a Nomad’s GS/S+F DPS built guard isn’t going to do nearly the same damage as a Zerk geared meta build guard.

That flows into my last point though.

I always believed in one rule to MMOs and RPGs in general. “You’ll eventually have enough defense, but you can never have enough offense” to explain you eventually will be able to take all the incoming damage dealt to you and mitigate/absorb/heal it. However, the only time your offense ever becomes more than necessary is when it’s completely trivial content that gets one shot and who caresa bout discussing that type of content.

GW2 does make this a bit more lopsided though with it’s active defense. With enough skill you can avoid most of the damage the game puts out. And if you can avoid it all, what’s the point of having more health/toughness? This allows us to go even further offense than what most games would allow and we can still come out unscathed.

So yeah, there’s that, however as I said above, if you want to get rid of the active defense in this game, kitten you, simple as that. (not meant at the person I quoted, just in general to anyone who might think that active defenses should be changed).

As for your question, why can zerkers “have it all”, well, because they’ve given up every safety net to get the most damage potential, and the game is designed on active defense. Truly they don’t “have it all” because a slight misstep and you bite the dust. So you have everything but ease of play… and that’s why there are other stat options, to provide less stressful options of play.

As usual, people are mistaking gear diversity for build diversity. Drop gear from your build diversity speculation. Build = traits, weapon choice and skill choice. All gear is supposed to do is determine if you specialize in direct or condition damage, and how bulky v. how squishy you are. Good players ask, “What can my profession bring to the group that the group does not have?” and build accordingly. There’s the diversity and versatility, in what the professions can bring and knowing your and other professions so you know what’s wanted or needed.

People who complain about lack of diversity are the same ones who never change their weapons or builds mid-run. If they think they lack diversity, they have only themselves to blame