Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Devata.6589:

Ashabhi.1365:

I have been playing this game from headstart (and beta before that.) I have at least 2K hours (probably more) in-game. I have 2 80’s and 6 other characters ranging in level from 20-65. I could have had more 80’s, but I was having way too much fun with the ones I already have. I am maxed in most of the crafting (still need huntsman and tailoring) and I have played every profession at least once. I think my experience in game is pretty well rounded.

I have formed an opinion about GW2 RNG and for better or worse, here it is:

Many people still have the idea that the more you try, the more likely it is that you will get it. In reality, it is not like that at all. If you have a 1 in 10,000 chance to get a particular item, it means that the chances of getting that particular item is the same on the 10,000th time you try as it they are on the first. This is why your friend can get a precursor in one try while you have to spend untold amounts of gold in the MF and still not get it.

The main problem is that the chances need to be tweaked. Not enough to ruin the already inflated economy, but enough so that there is a reasonable chance.

I would be much more willing to part with some of my gold if I knew the exact odds.

Right now, I might as well be playing Powerball (actual odds from their website are 1 in 175,223,510.) Unfortunately, it cost more than a couple bucks (gold) to play the precursor lottery.

In my case, getting a precursor is not something I am actively pursuing. If I have a couple extra things, I’ll toss them into the MF and see what happens, but there are way too many other pursuits that interest me more.

Of course every time you try again you have a 1/10,000 chance. However if you do it twice you changes of getting it are 2 times 1/10.000 because you did it twice, not because the second time there is a bigger change but because you did it 2 times. That is just math.

Anyway, the point is also.. is it fun to grind gold and get it, is it fun the toss things into the MF? Or is it more fun to activly hunt down the item without first grinding.

Of course you can get money while doing stuff you like but for many people hunting down those items is what they like. That is there end-content.

i think this is the biggest flaw with dev strategy, they build their reward systems around the economy, and not the gameplay. They expect people to get gold to buy what they want, which leads to gold hunting being the main game mode. Combine this with the most profitable tasks are going to be the easy/repetitive ones. It made sense in theory, make it so all tasks are equally rewarding and make it so few things are directly huntable, this way people trade get gold and buy what they want doing anything. However since it boils down to gold, whatever gets the most gold is the best answer, hence people work on whatever is current best gold farm, and have to buy what they want. essentially work for a paycheck, buy your item. Not really that adventurous.

They didnt realize that a great many people playing rpg/adventure games like to hunt/aim for/obtain items/skills etc.

Well they need to sell gems and you can buy gold for gems so this is also a very likely reason to make the game that way.

:| Compared to MapleStory up to patch 0.37 (quit after)… yeah not that bad…

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

laokoko.7403:

You dont’ need to grind anything. Just play the game normally. Most people can make 10 gold easily by just playing the game.

In 2 month you can have your precursor by just playing the game.

The way I like to play is to hunt for the item. Thats how I play a game. Not but just doing some stuff to get gold (also knows as grinding) to then buy the item I want. Thats not fun. Or at least not for the people who have a similar game-play style as me and complain about the grind..

Precursors you can’t hunt for because they are intended to be able to be gained by any type of player (expect a PVP player). Play normally and you will get your precursor eventually.

Lol, people with 2000 hours still don’t have one, let alone “their precursor” (aka one they’d want).

If it isn’t one they want most are closely the same cost (expect underwater ones) they can just sell it and then buy the one they want. Problem Solved

You’re avoiding the main issue, which is having no precursor at all drop despite over 2000 hours played.

Zero Day.2594:

:| Compared to MapleStory up to patch 0.37 (quit after)… yeah not that bad…

Do you know who was the monetization manager (or whatever they called it there) for MapleStory? You know who is the monetization manager for GW2?

morrolan.9608:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

laokoko.7403:

You dont’ need to grind anything. Just play the game normally. Most people can make 10 gold easily by just playing the game.

In 2 month you can have your precursor by just playing the game.

The way I like to play is to hunt for the item. Thats how I play a game. Not but just doing some stuff to get gold (also knows as grinding) to then buy the item I want. Thats not fun. Or at least not for the people who have a similar game-play style as me and complain about the grind..

Precursors you can’t hunt for because they are intended to be able to be gained by any type of player (expect a PVP player). Play normally and you will get your precursor eventually.

Lol, people with 2000 hours still don’t have one, let alone “their precursor” (aka one they’d want).

If it isn’t one they want most are closely the same cost (expect underwater ones) they can just sell it and then buy the one they want. Problem Solved

You’re avoiding the main issue, which is having no precursor at all drop despite over 2000 hours played.

Well you can grind gold and buy it. Need less then 2000 hours of grinding gold to buy it.
Sarcasm here.

Suddenflame.2601:

RNG is RNG if there wasn’t RNG what would the point of getting that sword?

Make it a badge of achievement, like the liadri mini. I respect players with that far far more than anyone with a legendary.

People forget its not just legendaries that are grind its Ascended and any items that require stupidly high amounts of resources and rare resources, make an insane money, time and farm grind all of which are far far higher than most other mmorpg’s.

Even some Korean grinders i’ve played do not even come close to what Guildwars 2 grind asks for. Its optional yes but so is playing Guildwars 2.

Devata.6589:

Zero Day.2594:

:| Compared to MapleStory up to patch 0.37 (quit after)… yeah not that bad…

Do you know who was the monetization manager (or whatever they called it there) for MapleStory? You know who is the monetization manager for GW2?

and that’s my point…
(soon will be worse )

The elements of an MMO which I have loved for many years and which make it my primary style of game are exploration and reward. GW2 is a place to explore, Tyria is beautiful and varied, but as for rewards, this game falls to the bottom of all games in the genre that I’ve played. If you want something in this game earn gold and buy it in the trading post? That’s a tragic game flaw.

Dante.1508:

People forget its not just legendaries that are grind its Ascended and any items that require stupidly high amounts of resources and rare resources, make an insane money, time and farm grind all of which are far far higher than most other mmorpg’s.

Even some Korean grinders i’ve played do not even come close to what Guildwars 2 grind asks for. Its optional yes but so is playing Guildwars 2.

the implementation of ascended is pretty bad, especially the armor, 300 silk scraps a day, either farm or grind either way it would take an extreme amount of time, and yet they really expect people to do this every day. just for reference, its essentially 6+ gold, which is about 4-6 dungeon runs. If you want to farm it yourself it takes even longer.

but they based it on the economy instead of the actual aquisition. IE we have a lot silk, so lets make it 7200 pieces of silk per set. totally ignoring that in terms of man hours to get that silk, its a huge investment.

morrolan.9608:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

laokoko.7403:

You dont’ need to grind anything. Just play the game normally. Most people can make 10 gold easily by just playing the game.

In 2 month you can have your precursor by just playing the game.

The way I like to play is to hunt for the item. Thats how I play a game. Not but just doing some stuff to get gold (also knows as grinding) to then buy the item I want. Thats not fun. Or at least not for the people who have a similar game-play style as me and complain about the grind..

Precursors you can’t hunt for because they are intended to be able to be gained by any type of player (expect a PVP player). Play normally and you will get your precursor eventually.

Lol, people with 2000 hours still don’t have one, let alone “their precursor” (aka one they’d want).

If it isn’t one they want most are closely the same cost (expect underwater ones) they can just sell it and then buy the one they want. Problem Solved

You’re avoiding the main issue, which is having no precursor at all drop despite over 2000 hours played.

I am not avoiding the issue because it is not an issue. 2000 hours played no precursor drop is not an issue. The issue would be if they didn’t drop at all, but we know that they do drop and pretty frequently based on the numbers on the TP in comparison to the drop rate of other things.

Dante.1508:

People forget its not just legendaries that are grind its Ascended and any items that require stupidly high amounts of resources and rare resources, make an insane money, time and farm grind all of which are far far higher than most other mmorpg’s.

Even some Korean grinders i’ve played do not even come close to what Guildwars 2 grind asks for. Its optional yes but so is playing Guildwars 2.

Ascended is not grindy at all if you play normally. I am playing normally and got a ton of materials just sitting waiting for me to make ascended armour. Hell if I decided to go full out grinding I could have easily have enough materials for several sets of ascended in about 3-4 days. Only thing that would prevent me now would be time gating but I would have enough silk and other things at the ready.

The fact of the matter is this. The grind is yet another symptom of a larger problem. One by one these problems crop up. I often wonder if there is anyone who’s played MMO’s on the team because the mistakes that are being made are those of people who’ve never heard of these problems before. They are basic ones. Grind, forced temporary gameplay, forced extended gameplay, severe imbalance in PVE (some of which is so easily dealt with by doing the things already done before it’s boggling), the problems that come with an all RNG loot system, DR, extending goals well beyond anything reasonable…

All of these things have been hashed and rehashed multiple times throughout mmo history. The developers that survived things like DR/RNG developed knew better ways of handling these things that kept their players. Heck even now some of the developers games I’m still playing who have in the past held onto their horrible balance team designs are actually making headway into making the weaker classes more in line with the rest and providing great ways of getting gear that don’t require a kidney to achieve.

It is that bad here sorry to disappoint the OP but it is, and it’s not the only thing that’s wrong. If there is someone who knows the history I’m speaking of on the team than they must be someone that no one listens to even tho they have invaluable information on what NOT to do in an mmo because these things were fail and even went so far as to destroy games populations with a single incident taking the games in question offline permanently because the company went under.

I don’t think anyone here wants that to happen to GW2, I know I don’t because I see great potential but something’s gotta be done about communication of the history of how these things were already hashed out and tried by other companies long ago and how they affected those games so they can use what did work and work well to both balance the classes and eliminate the grind.

Suddenflame.2601:

Dante.1508:

People forget its not just legendaries that are grind its Ascended and any items that require stupidly high amounts of resources and rare resources, make an insane money, time and farm grind all of which are far far higher than most other mmorpg’s.

Even some Korean grinders i’ve played do not even come close to what Guildwars 2 grind asks for. Its optional yes but so is playing Guildwars 2.

Ascended is not grindy at all if you play normally. I am playing normally and got a ton of materials just sitting waiting for me to make ascended armour. Hell if I decided to go full out grinding I could have easily have enough materials for several sets of ascended in about 3-4 days. Only thing that would prevent me now would be time gating but I would have enough silk and other things at the ready.

tell me what your normal play day is like, and how you get 300 scraps silk per day. Keep in mind if you have been saving it for months, or using your saved resources from months, its taking a long time its just something you did before.

btw, one set of ascended is about 7200 silk scraps which is about 28 slots of bank space, that ONLY represents the silk part.

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

Dante.1508:

People forget its not just legendaries that are grind its Ascended and any items that require stupidly high amounts of resources and rare resources, make an insane money, time and farm grind all of which are far far higher than most other mmorpg’s.

Even some Korean grinders i’ve played do not even come close to what Guildwars 2 grind asks for. Its optional yes but so is playing Guildwars 2.

Ascended is not grindy at all if you play normally. I am playing normally and got a ton of materials just sitting waiting for me to make ascended armour. Hell if I decided to go full out grinding I could have easily have enough materials for several sets of ascended in about 3-4 days. Only thing that would prevent me now would be time gating but I would have enough silk and other things at the ready.

tell me what your normal play day is like, and how you get 300 scraps silk per day. Keep in mind if you have been saving it for months, or using your saved resources from months, its taking a long time its just something you did before.

btw, one set of ascended is about 7200 silk scraps which is about 28 slots of bank space, that ONLY represents the silk part.

My current supply is from previous months but getting 300 scraps isn’t that hard (if drops are in your favor). In one my full days off (on these days i play 14hrs. My regular day is only 1hr to 3hrs) I could get 500+ scraps easily this was during the time that scraps were worthless so no one farmed them so if I went and focused on it I could achieve much higher rates. I remember having to merch stacks of it just because i already had 1 stack in my collection bank and 2 stacks in my inventory. That was me just playing normally. I play mostly WvW which means the drops vary greatly.

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

Dante.1508:

People forget its not just legendaries that are grind its Ascended and any items that require stupidly high amounts of resources and rare resources, make an insane money, time and farm grind all of which are far far higher than most other mmorpg’s.

Even some Korean grinders i’ve played do not even come close to what Guildwars 2 grind asks for. Its optional yes but so is playing Guildwars 2.

Ascended is not grindy at all if you play normally. I am playing normally and got a ton of materials just sitting waiting for me to make ascended armour. Hell if I decided to go full out grinding I could have easily have enough materials for several sets of ascended in about 3-4 days. Only thing that would prevent me now would be time gating but I would have enough silk and other things at the ready.

tell me what your normal play day is like, and how you get 300 scraps silk per day. Keep in mind if you have been saving it for months, or using your saved resources from months, its taking a long time its just something you did before.

btw, one set of ascended is about 7200 silk scraps which is about 28 slots of bank space, that ONLY represents the silk part.

My current supply is from previous months but getting 300 scraps isn’t that hard (if drops are in your favor). In one my full days off (on these days i play 14hrs. My regular day is only 1hr to 3hrs) I could get 500+ scraps easily this was during the time that scraps were worthless so no one farmed them so if I went and focused on it I could achieve much higher rates. I remember having to merch stacks of it just because i already had 1 stack in my collection bank and 2 stacks in my inventory. That was me just playing normally. I play mostly WvW which means the drops vary greatly.

there is currently no way to get 500 scraps in 1.5 hours without buying it. scraps only come from salvage, and enemy bags. Since mass murdering of many enemies is no longer meta, it isnt as easy to get. enemy bag silk drop rates seem lower to me than in the past. Only get tailor materials like 1/7 bags, whereas before, a great many bags seem to contain leather and cloth.

perhaps if you could get like 15-20 peops to do event chains like they used to.

also, regardless, we would be talking about hardcore farming, aka grinding. Doing repetitive simple tasks repeatedly in order to obtain the things you want, as opposed to normal play or content.

hardcore grind can be available for some people to profit, but it shouldnt be required for 1.5 hours a day for 1.5 months in order to meet the minimum daily requirement to get your ascended set within 23-28 days

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

Dante.1508:

People forget its not just legendaries that are grind its Ascended and any items that require stupidly high amounts of resources and rare resources, make an insane money, time and farm grind all of which are far far higher than most other mmorpg’s.

Even some Korean grinders i’ve played do not even come close to what Guildwars 2 grind asks for. Its optional yes but so is playing Guildwars 2.

Ascended is not grindy at all if you play normally. I am playing normally and got a ton of materials just sitting waiting for me to make ascended armour. Hell if I decided to go full out grinding I could have easily have enough materials for several sets of ascended in about 3-4 days. Only thing that would prevent me now would be time gating but I would have enough silk and other things at the ready.

tell me what your normal play day is like, and how you get 300 scraps silk per day. Keep in mind if you have been saving it for months, or using your saved resources from months, its taking a long time its just something you did before.

btw, one set of ascended is about 7200 silk scraps which is about 28 slots of bank space, that ONLY represents the silk part.

My current supply is from previous months but getting 300 scraps isn’t that hard (if drops are in your favor). In one my full days off (on these days i play 14hrs. My regular day is only 1hr to 3hrs) I could get 500+ scraps easily this was during the time that scraps were worthless so no one farmed them so if I went and focused on it I could achieve much higher rates. I remember having to merch stacks of it just because i already had 1 stack in my collection bank and 2 stacks in my inventory. That was me just playing normally. I play mostly WvW which means the drops vary greatly.

there is currently no way to get 500 scraps in 1.5 hours without buying it. scraps only come from salvage, and enemy bags. Since mass murdering of many enemies is no longer meta, it isnt as easy to get. enemy bag silk drop rates seem lower to me than in the past. Only get tailor materials like 1/7 bags, whereas before, a great many bags seem to contain leather and cloth.

perhaps if you could get like 15-20 peops to do event chains like they used to.

Dude I am mostly a solo player and WvW will always have zerg fights (mass murder). I also play ranger especially for tagging from long range. If there is a will there is a way. When people where farming Orr i was not there. Where ever people are farming I tend to avoid that area (expect if I need to be there) QD I used to play all the time till the QD train now i only go there when i need to finish my monthly since i tend to lack killing. I have my own means to gain materials in large quantities (depending on the material). Silk is one my easiest to gain materials.

phys.7689:

hardcore grind can be available for some people to profit, but it shouldnt be required for 1.5 hours a day for 1.5 months in order to meet the minimum daily requirement to get your ascended set within 23-28 days

22-28days is not that bad, and it will take you longer to get the laurels necessary for your ascended gear any way you do realize that. For a full set of ascended gear including weapons is like 60 laurels.

Edit: Well 30 laurels just for armour and the rest for how ever many weapons (I need a lot of weapons). The part that is going to take you the longest is getting your crafting from 400-500.

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

Dante.1508:

People forget its not just legendaries that are grind its Ascended and any items that require stupidly high amounts of resources and rare resources, make an insane money, time and farm grind all of which are far far higher than most other mmorpg’s.

Even some Korean grinders i’ve played do not even come close to what Guildwars 2 grind asks for. Its optional yes but so is playing Guildwars 2.

Ascended is not grindy at all if you play normally. I am playing normally and got a ton of materials just sitting waiting for me to make ascended armour. Hell if I decided to go full out grinding I could have easily have enough materials for several sets of ascended in about 3-4 days. Only thing that would prevent me now would be time gating but I would have enough silk and other things at the ready.

tell me what your normal play day is like, and how you get 300 scraps silk per day. Keep in mind if you have been saving it for months, or using your saved resources from months, its taking a long time its just something you did before.

btw, one set of ascended is about 7200 silk scraps which is about 28 slots of bank space, that ONLY represents the silk part.

My current supply is from previous months but getting 300 scraps isn’t that hard (if drops are in your favor). In one my full days off (on these days i play 14hrs. My regular day is only 1hr to 3hrs) I could get 500+ scraps easily this was during the time that scraps were worthless so no one farmed them so if I went and focused on it I could achieve much higher rates. I remember having to merch stacks of it just because i already had 1 stack in my collection bank and 2 stacks in my inventory. That was me just playing normally. I play mostly WvW which means the drops vary greatly.

there is currently no way to get 500 scraps in 1.5 hours without buying it. scraps only come from salvage, and enemy bags. Since mass murdering of many enemies is no longer meta, it isnt as easy to get. enemy bag silk drop rates seem lower to me than in the past. Only get tailor materials like 1/7 bags, whereas before, a great many bags seem to contain leather and cloth.

perhaps if you could get like 15-20 peops to do event chains like they used to.

Dude I am mostly a solo player and WvW will always have zerg fights (mass murder). I also play ranger especially for tagging from long range. If there is a will there is a way. When people where farming Orr i was not there. Where ever people are farming I tend to avoid that area (expect if I need to be there) QD I used to play all the time till the QD train now i only go there when i need to finish my monthly since i tend to lack killing. I have my own means to gain materials in large quantities (depending on the material). Silk is one my easiest to gain materials.

WvW zerg fight availability varies from server to server and week to week. Anyhow like i said, i dont think a player should be required to do repetive task aimed primarily at effeciently obtaining materials for 1.5 hours a day, for 25-28 days straight in order to even have a chance of getting ascended armor done within 25-28 days

i literally spent like 1hour getting 50 linen scraps yesterday solo, i was basically running around in circles killing mobs in high respawn areas, which is essentially degenerative gameplay as far as anet is concerned. this is what grindy essentially means.

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

Dante.1508:

People forget its not just legendaries that are grind its Ascended and any items that require stupidly high amounts of resources and rare resources, make an insane money, time and farm grind all of which are far far higher than most other mmorpg’s.

Even some Korean grinders i’ve played do not even come close to what Guildwars 2 grind asks for. Its optional yes but so is playing Guildwars 2.

Ascended is not grindy at all if you play normally. I am playing normally and got a ton of materials just sitting waiting for me to make ascended armour. Hell if I decided to go full out grinding I could have easily have enough materials for several sets of ascended in about 3-4 days. Only thing that would prevent me now would be time gating but I would have enough silk and other things at the ready.

tell me what your normal play day is like, and how you get 300 scraps silk per day. Keep in mind if you have been saving it for months, or using your saved resources from months, its taking a long time its just something you did before.

btw, one set of ascended is about 7200 silk scraps which is about 28 slots of bank space, that ONLY represents the silk part.

My current supply is from previous months but getting 300 scraps isn’t that hard (if drops are in your favor). In one my full days off (on these days i play 14hrs. My regular day is only 1hr to 3hrs) I could get 500+ scraps easily this was during the time that scraps were worthless so no one farmed them so if I went and focused on it I could achieve much higher rates. I remember having to merch stacks of it just because i already had 1 stack in my collection bank and 2 stacks in my inventory. That was me just playing normally. I play mostly WvW which means the drops vary greatly.

there is currently no way to get 500 scraps in 1.5 hours without buying it. scraps only come from salvage, and enemy bags. Since mass murdering of many enemies is no longer meta, it isnt as easy to get. enemy bag silk drop rates seem lower to me than in the past. Only get tailor materials like 1/7 bags, whereas before, a great many bags seem to contain leather and cloth.

perhaps if you could get like 15-20 peops to do event chains like they used to.

Dude I am mostly a solo player and WvW will always have zerg fights (mass murder). I also play ranger especially for tagging from long range. If there is a will there is a way. When people where farming Orr i was not there. Where ever people are farming I tend to avoid that area (expect if I need to be there) QD I used to play all the time till the QD train now i only go there when i need to finish my monthly since i tend to lack killing. I have my own means to gain materials in large quantities (depending on the material). Silk is one my easiest to gain materials.

WvW zerg fight availability varies from server to server and week to week. Anyhow like i said, i dont think a player should be required to do repetive task aimed primarily at effeciently obtaining materials for 1.5 hours a day, for 25-28 days straight in order to even have a chance of getting ascended armor done within 25-28 days

i literally spent like 1hour getting 50 linen scraps yesterday solo, i was basically running around in circles killing mobs in high respawn areas, which is essentially degenerative gameplay as far as anet is concerned. this is what grindy essentially means.

Than play normally rather than trying to grind. I go into an area for a material but end up having a ton of fun just because I do what I want to do. Also, 25-28 days is not long at all if you stop to think about it. Legendary is supposed to take years to make, but people rushed it. Ascended was designed to take months they even put time gates in for that reason as well to prevent people from rushing it but still leaving it open for sellers and buyers to rush.

The ascended and legendary are not meant to be grindy but people are forcing the grind on themselves cause they want it now which is against the design decision of months to acquire. So basically all your trying to do is rush it when its designed not be rushed which is creating a grind.

Its like trying to create a piece of art. If you rush it, its not as fun and is a dreadful process. If you take your time you will get much better results and have more fun in the process.

Rng needs to be increased as well as items need to be obtained only in certain areas. Rarity is what creates value. Everyday loot is spat into our faces and yet we are still unhappy. Why should we be happy with the rare sword that you got from the warm when other players got the same from elsewhere. The more common it is the lower the price.

Grind is necessary to keep interest. Your not being forced to make asc or legendaries, but then again what other real interest is there to keep you logging everyday? While I don’t like asc gear what they have done for the economy is unquestionable. Anet made the horrible mistake of allowing top end armor to be earned through dungeon tokens. However by doing that they cut out nearly all of the reason for mats. Why spend time gathering and crafting when I can get the same stat armor for free and still earn money.

You say that the amount of silk required is unreasonable but yet I willing to be you are thrilled when you salvage a few scraps. Tell me then how thrilled you are when you get thick leather? Is it more or less excitement? Is your first reaction to list it on the to or merchant/destroy it? How is it that there is such a radical difference between 2 t5 mats?

Suddenflame.2601:

Than play normally rather than trying to grind. I go into an area for a material but end up having a ton of fun just because I do what I want to do. Also, 25-28 days is not long at all if you stop to think about it. Legendary is supposed to take years to make, but people rushed it. Ascended was designed to take months they even put time gates in for that reason as well to prevent people from rushing it but still leaving it open for sellers and buyers to rush.

The ascended and legendary are not meant to be grindy but people are forcing the grind on themselves cause they want it now which is against the design decision of months to acquire. So basically all your trying to do is rush it when its designed not be rushed which is creating a grind.

Its like trying to create a piece of art. If you rush it, its not as fun and is a dreadful process. If you take your time you will get much better results and have more fun in the process.

there is no way to make 1 bolt of damask per day in a normal amount of time without grinding. silk is just the daily requirement.
you actually need 300 silk 40 linen 20 cotton 40 wool each day. There are not many ways to get that other than hunt certain monsters at certain levels, or buy it on the TP.

And yes i understand they designed it this way, im just saying its a very grindy design by its very nature. you have two choices, either get 13 gold in materials each day, or farm 13 gold in materials each day, either case requires on average 2-3 hours of play dedicated to just that one aspect. The most effecient ways to do that are to grind.
And this is only for 1 item in the process, you still need either ascended metal leather, or even more damask, gold for recipes, laurels dragonite empyreal and bloodstone.

Is it possible? yes. Do you have to grind? yes. is there anyway to do it without grinding? not really, unless you dont mind taking 2-3 months for one armor set.

echo.2053:

Rng needs to be increased as well as items need to be obtained only in certain areas. Rarity is what creates value. Everyday loot is spat into our faces and yet we are still unhappy. Why should we be happy with the rare sword that you got from the warm when other players got the same from elsewhere. The more common it is the lower the price.

Grind is necessary to keep interest. Your not being forced to make asc or legendaries, but then again what other real interest is there to keep you logging everyday? While I don’t like asc gear what they have done for the economy is unquestionable. Anet made the horrible mistake of allowing top end armor to be earned through dungeon tokens. However by doing that they cut out nearly all of the reason for mats. Why spend time gathering and crafting when I can get the same stat armor for free and still earn money.

You say that the amount of silk required is unreasonable but yet I willing to be you are thrilled when you salvage a few scraps. Tell me then how thrilled you are when you get thick leather? Is it more or less excitement? Is your first reaction to list it on the to or merchant/destroy it? How is it that there is such a radical difference between 2 t5 mats?

From what I get from your position is that there isn’t enough RNG to certain items?
Do you want to increase the difficulty of obtaining certain objects?

I do agree with your position however about how the RNG on most of the objects is extremely low which is generating huge supply that no one wants. It is also causing disinterest in loot drops. From what I seen no one really cares about rares expect for salvage to get ectos.

I do think there needs to be more uses for the materials and the crafting system needs a lot of work. If following the logic of other MMO’s crafting systems the higher the tier the harder it should be to craft. The current crafting system is starting to turn in this direction but needs a bit more of a push. Leather being one needing the push.

Before ascended bottom and top tiers were the easiest to make (and cheapest) but the middle tiers were actually the most expensive (some of the materials were 1-2s each). Since Ascended crafting that has leveled out and is now in a more proper triangle and not an hour glass shape.

I do agree with the design flaws mentioned with dungeon tokens and exotics. As well about the grind since that’s all the rest of the end game of other MMO’s is essentially.

echo.2053:

Rng needs to be increased as well as items need to be obtained only in certain areas. Rarity is what creates value. Everyday loot is spat into our faces and yet we are still unhappy. Why should we be happy with the rare sword that you got from the warm when other players got the same from elsewhere. The more common it is the lower the price.

Grind is necessary to keep interest. Your not being forced to make asc or legendaries, but then again what other real interest is there to keep you logging everyday? While I don’t like asc gear what they have done for the economy is unquestionable. Anet made the horrible mistake of allowing top end armor to be earned through dungeon tokens. However by doing that they cut out nearly all of the reason for mats. Why spend time gathering and crafting when I can get the same stat armor for free and still earn money.

You say that the amount of silk required is unreasonable but yet I willing to be you are thrilled when you salvage a few scraps. Tell me then how thrilled you are when you get thick leather? Is it more or less excitement? Is your first reaction to list it on the to or merchant/destroy it? How is it that there is such a radical difference between 2 t5 mats?

nah, the grind is too endless to excite me. now i get silk and it reminds me that tommorow i just have to somehow get another 300 pieces. And there are other ways to excite players. I was excited in GW1 playing Domain of Anguish, and you only needed 60 gemstones to get items from there.

I believe players need goals, and things they can work towards, but this execution feels like a job. The best methods of achieving it(aside from tp marketing) are doing what is essentially a repetitive simple task. This is what grind is.

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

Than play normally rather than trying to grind. I go into an area for a material but end up having a ton of fun just because I do what I want to do. Also, 25-28 days is not long at all if you stop to think about it. Legendary is supposed to take years to make, but people rushed it. Ascended was designed to take months they even put time gates in for that reason as well to prevent people from rushing it but still leaving it open for sellers and buyers to rush.

The ascended and legendary are not meant to be grindy but people are forcing the grind on themselves cause they want it now which is against the design decision of months to acquire. So basically all your trying to do is rush it when its designed not be rushed which is creating a grind.

Its like trying to create a piece of art. If you rush it, its not as fun and is a dreadful process. If you take your time you will get much better results and have more fun in the process.

there is no way to make 1 bolt of damask per day in a normal amount of time without grinding. silk is just the daily requirement.
you actually need 300 silk 40 linen 20 cotton 40 wool each day. There are not many ways to get that other than hunt certain monsters at certain levels, or buy it on the TP.

And yes i understand they designed it this way, im just saying its a very grindy design by its very nature. you have two choices, either get 13 gold in materials each day, or farm 13 gold in materials each day, either case requires on average 2-3 hours of play dedicated to just that one aspect. The most effecient ways to do that are to grind.
And this is only for 1 item in the process, you still need either ascended metal leather, or even more damask, gold for recipes, laurels dragonite empyreal and bloodstone.

Is it possible? yes. Do you have to grind? yes. is there anyway to do it without grinding? not really, unless you dont mind taking 2-3 months for one armor set.

As I stated above it is supposed to take months to make one armour set. By Grinding it your rushing it and that’s against the design. Your right now by grinding it doing more harm than good to yourself as evidence that your not having as much fun from playing a game. Plus by waiting for those 2-3 months everyone else has grinded themselves into a frenzy (forums showing evidence of frenzy against grinding on a repeat cycle corresponding directly with Ascended releases than mellowing out afterwards). After each frenzy the price of the materials stabilizes. Right now they are high because people are buying it.

This is a free market economy run completely by supply and demand. At this point since your grinding and wanting it right now along with the large portion of the player base the demand will be high with supply lower. By playing and playing the game as designed I avoid high costs while at the same time gain the materials myself.

Right now I could flood the market with silk raking in a huge profit than waiting for a price drop that will come in about 2-3 months (or less) and get my own gear.

Like stated why go against the design?

phys.7689:

echo.2053:

Rng needs to be increased as well as items need to be obtained only in certain areas. Rarity is what creates value. Everyday loot is spat into our faces and yet we are still unhappy. Why should we be happy with the rare sword that you got from the warm when other players got the same from elsewhere. The more common it is the lower the price.

Grind is necessary to keep interest. Your not being forced to make asc or legendaries, but then again what other real interest is there to keep you logging everyday? While I don’t like asc gear what they have done for the economy is unquestionable. Anet made the horrible mistake of allowing top end armor to be earned through dungeon tokens. However by doing that they cut out nearly all of the reason for mats. Why spend time gathering and crafting when I can get the same stat armor for free and still earn money.

You say that the amount of silk required is unreasonable but yet I willing to be you are thrilled when you salvage a few scraps. Tell me then how thrilled you are when you get thick leather? Is it more or less excitement? Is your first reaction to list it on the to or merchant/destroy it? How is it that there is such a radical difference between 2 t5 mats?

nah, the grind is too endless to excite me. now i get silk and it reminds me that tommorow i just have to somehow get another 300 pieces. And there are other ways to excite players. I was excited in GW1 playing Domain of Anguish, and you only needed 60 gemstones to get items from there.

I believe players need goals, and things they can work towards, but this execution feels like a job. The best methods of achieving it(aside from tp marketing) are doing what is essentially a repetitive simple task. This is what grind is.

The main issue I see is everyone is placing the goals as short-term goals that can be achieved in only minutes to hours of gameplay. They do not set long-term goals to work towards unless given an in-game quest to do so but even then if it takes longer than a day or two they will complain about how long it takes. Unless you place hurdles with rewards inbetween the player and that long term goal.

GW2 tried a different approach of not having those hurdles and for the players to make their own goals. This proved to be an issue as everyone gained exotic gear quickly and were now disinterested as they achieved their shiny goal and started leaving. Now they have placed more goals but have not put in hurdles to achieve those goals. They also haven’t placed enough directed goals.

Basically, GW2 wasn’t trying to hold your hand when playing a game but the players couldn’t handle that. No other MMORPG I know of does not hold the player’s hand from start to finish (Many complaints about GW2 is the lack of a tutorial system). All other games have directed end game meaning your told what to do by the system. When you get there you are told how to do it by other players.

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

Than play normally rather than trying to grind. I go into an area for a material but end up having a ton of fun just because I do what I want to do. Also, 25-28 days is not long at all if you stop to think about it. Legendary is supposed to take years to make, but people rushed it. Ascended was designed to take months they even put time gates in for that reason as well to prevent people from rushing it but still leaving it open for sellers and buyers to rush.

The ascended and legendary are not meant to be grindy but people are forcing the grind on themselves cause they want it now which is against the design decision of months to acquire. So basically all your trying to do is rush it when its designed not be rushed which is creating a grind.

Its like trying to create a piece of art. If you rush it, its not as fun and is a dreadful process. If you take your time you will get much better results and have more fun in the process.

there is no way to make 1 bolt of damask per day in a normal amount of time without grinding. silk is just the daily requirement.
you actually need 300 silk 40 linen 20 cotton 40 wool each day. There are not many ways to get that other than hunt certain monsters at certain levels, or buy it on the TP.

And yes i understand they designed it this way, im just saying its a very grindy design by its very nature. you have two choices, either get 13 gold in materials each day, or farm 13 gold in materials each day, either case requires on average 2-3 hours of play dedicated to just that one aspect. The most effecient ways to do that are to grind.
And this is only for 1 item in the process, you still need either ascended metal leather, or even more damask, gold for recipes, laurels dragonite empyreal and bloodstone.

Is it possible? yes. Do you have to grind? yes. is there anyway to do it without grinding? not really, unless you dont mind taking 2-3 months for one armor set.

As I stated above it is supposed to take months to make one armour set. By Grinding it your rushing it and that’s against the design. Your right now by grinding it doing more harm than good to yourself as evidence that your not having as much fun from playing a game. Plus by waiting for those 2-3 months everyone else has grinded themselves into a frenzy (forums showing evidence of frenzy against grinding on a repeat cycle corresponding directly with Ascended releases than mellowing out afterwards). After each frenzy the price of the materials stabilizes. Right now they are high because people are buying it.

This is a free market economy run completely by supply and demand. At this point since your grinding and wanting it right now along with the large portion of the player base the demand will be high with supply lower. By playing and playing the game as designed I avoid high costs while at the same time gain the materials myself.

Right now I could flood the market with silk raking in a huge profit than waiting for a price drop that will come in about 2-3 months (or less) and get my own gear.

Like stated why go against the design?

Its not really a free market economy, anet created a silk event by making an item than needs 300 silk scraps every day or you fall behind, eliminating viability of dynamic event spam/mass monster killing. And making cloth have no direct means of obtainability. They also designed ascended so the base inscription uses 3 cloth, which means every armor needs it

The economy is controlled, we get to effect it, but it is by no means a free market. This is expected, but it means that many times when there is an economic problem it is the direct result of anets manipulations.

Designing best in slot to take 1 month of semi hardcore play, and 2-3 months of casual play is a bad design. Especially considering its only 1 stat selection, on one charachter. The point of their time gates was supposed to allow them to make things not as grindy, but take longer. ascended armor takes long AND requires 2 hours of grind per day for 23-28 days. even if you space it out, its still there.

Not only that, but the type of hours that are required are either, best money farm hours, or repetitive killing of weak monsters in limited locations in order to be efficient. Its not like 60 hours of exploration, adventure, and challenging content. Its kill 20000 pirates or 4000 champions on a champ train.

Whether you are ok with grind design or not, you cannot say its not grindy, and you cant say its less grindy than other MMOs,

Aidenwolf.5964:

The elements of an MMO which I have loved for many years and which make it my primary style of game are exploration and reward. GW2 is a place to explore, Tyria is beautiful and varied, but as for rewards, this game falls to the bottom of all games in the genre that I’ve played. If you want something in this game earn gold and buy it in the trading post? That’s a tragic game flaw.

While I don’t share your negativity about the game, gold, and the TP (no offense intended), I do wish exploration would be more rewarding other than map completion rewards and full exploration Legendary gifts. So that people who just love the universe would be a bit more rewarded if they chose not to do any Dungeons that particular day (not saying that rewards should be the same as doing Dungeons-just a bit more rewarding overall.)

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

Than play normally rather than trying to grind. I go into an area for a material but end up having a ton of fun just because I do what I want to do. Also, 25-28 days is not long at all if you stop to think about it. Legendary is supposed to take years to make, but people rushed it. Ascended was designed to take months they even put time gates in for that reason as well to prevent people from rushing it but still leaving it open for sellers and buyers to rush.

The ascended and legendary are not meant to be grindy but people are forcing the grind on themselves cause they want it now which is against the design decision of months to acquire. So basically all your trying to do is rush it when its designed not be rushed which is creating a grind.

Its like trying to create a piece of art. If you rush it, its not as fun and is a dreadful process. If you take your time you will get much better results and have more fun in the process.

there is no way to make 1 bolt of damask per day in a normal amount of time without grinding. silk is just the daily requirement.
you actually need 300 silk 40 linen 20 cotton 40 wool each day. There are not many ways to get that other than hunt certain monsters at certain levels, or buy it on the TP.

And yes i understand they designed it this way, im just saying its a very grindy design by its very nature. you have two choices, either get 13 gold in materials each day, or farm 13 gold in materials each day, either case requires on average 2-3 hours of play dedicated to just that one aspect. The most effecient ways to do that are to grind.
And this is only for 1 item in the process, you still need either ascended metal leather, or even more damask, gold for recipes, laurels dragonite empyreal and bloodstone.

Is it possible? yes. Do you have to grind? yes. is there anyway to do it without grinding? not really, unless you dont mind taking 2-3 months for one armor set.

As I stated above it is supposed to take months to make one armour set. By Grinding it your rushing it and that’s against the design. Your right now by grinding it doing more harm than good to yourself as evidence that your not having as much fun from playing a game. Plus by waiting for those 2-3 months everyone else has grinded themselves into a frenzy (forums showing evidence of frenzy against grinding on a repeat cycle corresponding directly with Ascended releases than mellowing out afterwards). After each frenzy the price of the materials stabilizes. Right now they are high because people are buying it.

This is a free market economy run completely by supply and demand. At this point since your grinding and wanting it right now along with the large portion of the player base the demand will be high with supply lower. By playing and playing the game as designed I avoid high costs while at the same time gain the materials myself.

Right now I could flood the market with silk raking in a huge profit than waiting for a price drop that will come in about 2-3 months (or less) and get my own gear.

Like stated why go against the design?

Its not really a free market economy, anet created a silk event by making an item than needs 300 silk scraps every day or you fall behind, eliminating viability of dynamic event spam/mass monster killing. And making cloth have no direct means of obtainability. They also designed ascended so the base inscription uses 3 cloth, which means every armor needs it

The economy is controlled, we get to effect it, but it is by no means a free market. This is expected, but it means that many times when there is an economic problem it is the direct result of anets manipulations.

Designing best in slot to take 1 month of semi hardcore play, and 2-3 months of casual play is a bad design. Especially considering its only 1 stat selection, on one charachter. The point of their time gates was supposed to allow them to make things not as grindy, but take longer. ascended armor takes long AND requires 2 hours of grind per day for 23-28 days. even if you space it out, its still there.

Whether you are ok with grind design or not, you cannot say its not grindy, and you cant say its less grindy than other MMOs,

Its a free market economy. The players decide the price of the objects not Anet. Think Anet as nature and advancement of technology. I can say its not grindy since I am not grinding it, but still can acquire it. Its also not bad design for its a long term goal not a short term one that you want it to be. They want people to play for a long term without introducing a gear treadmill. WoW to keep people interested uses a gear treadmill its not long before they release another tier of gear.

Your wanting the gear here and now which is the issue. Get rid of that thinking and think of long-term goals.

phys.7689:

Its not really a free market economy, anet created a silk event by making an item than needs 300 silk scraps every day or you fall behind, eliminating viability of dynamic event spam/mass monster killing. And making cloth have no direct means of obtainability. They also designed ascended so the base inscription uses 3 cloth, which means every armor needs it

The economy is controlled, we get to effect it, but it is by no means a free market. This is expected, but it means that many times when there is an economic problem it is the direct result of anets manipulations.

Designing best in slot to take 1 month of semi hardcore play, and 2-3 months of casual play is a bad design. Especially considering its only 1 stat selection, on one charachter. The point of their time gates was supposed to allow them to make things not as grindy, but take longer. ascended armor takes long AND requires 2 hours of grind per day for 23-28 days. even if you space it out, its still there.

Whether you are ok with grind design or not, you cannot say its not grindy, and you cant say its less grindy than other MMOs,

I do believe that Ascended weapons and armor are rather grindy, but IMHO they weren’t meant to be acquired right away by all players, and some players, including me, don’t even go for them. I don’t feel left out by refusing to join the grind. I keep having fun with full exotics, as it’s my practical BiS, and one I can play happily with. Ascended was added, after all, to appease players who wanted “something to do”-and something to do-grind for-they were given indeed.

Note I am not saying it’s “wrong” to go for Ascended, but rather that you must be willing to pay the price, or be patient and get them in a longer while.

(Ascended trinkets are not that hard to obtain nowadays, and seem to me way more practical than Ascended weapons and armor.)

Star Ace.5207:

phys.7689:

Its not really a free market economy, anet created a silk event by making an item than needs 300 silk scraps every day or you fall behind, eliminating viability of dynamic event spam/mass monster killing. And making cloth have no direct means of obtainability. They also designed ascended so the base inscription uses 3 cloth, which means every armor needs it

The economy is controlled, we get to effect it, but it is by no means a free market. This is expected, but it means that many times when there is an economic problem it is the direct result of anets manipulations.

Designing best in slot to take 1 month of semi hardcore play, and 2-3 months of casual play is a bad design. Especially considering its only 1 stat selection, on one charachter. The point of their time gates was supposed to allow them to make things not as grindy, but take longer. ascended armor takes long AND requires 2 hours of grind per day for 23-28 days. even if you space it out, its still there.

Whether you are ok with grind design or not, you cannot say its not grindy, and you cant say its less grindy than other MMOs,

I do believe that Ascended weapons and armor are rather grindy, but IMHO they weren’t meant to be acquired right away by all players, and some players, including me, don’t even go for them. I don’t feel left out by refusing to join the grind. I keep having fun with full exotics, as it’s my practical BiS, and one I can play happily with. Ascended was added, after all, to appease players who wanted “something to do”-and something to do-grind for-they were given indeed.

Note I am not saying it’s “wrong” to go for Ascended, but rather that you must be willing to pay the price, or be patient and get them in a longer while.

(Ascended trinkets are not that hard to obtain nowadays, and seem to me way more practical than Ascended weapons and armor.)

Agreed with your point.

When I started playing GW2, I felt like a hero from a fantasy novel saving the world.

I stopped playing GW2 when I felt like that guy I see in front of the cigarette counter at my local grocery store, slumped from his eight hour shift working an assembly line, joylessly scratching at the ten lotto tickets he buys each day on his way home from work.

its a grind because it requires a massive amount of simple work. whether you do a grind over 1 day or 10000 its still a grind. If somebody asks me to fill up a glass 1 grain of sand at a time its a grind, it doesnt make it less of a grind to do it over the course of 1 year or 1 day. The grind is set in stone, you can choose to power through it, or choose to do it over the course of a long period, its still a grind. A non grindy design doesnt make you put sand in a glass 1 grain at a time.

Anet is not really nature and science because they made ascended take up the materials it did as a means of economic manipulation. It has nothing to do with lore, science the nature of the world, it was basically like, we have a lot of silk, lets create a high demand for silk.

Its perfectly within the parameters of what they should be doing as the masters of the game, but it means that they are controlling the economy. The main facet of an economy is goods and services, anet altered how many silk are required to make one bolt, they doubled the teir 5 material cost for damask as compared to other teir 7 mats. That is not a free market. Its controlling goods and services.

As for your creating art comment i wish it was like creating art, i am an artist, and every artist is different some take days, others take minutes, its based on the skill, tempermant and vision of the artist. I know people who can create in 15 minutes what it takes others days to do. I know some who would prefer to take months to work on peice whereas other would rip their heads off first.

Star Ace.5207:

phys.7689:

Its not really a free market economy, anet created a silk event by making an item than needs 300 silk scraps every day or you fall behind, eliminating viability of dynamic event spam/mass monster killing. And making cloth have no direct means of obtainability. They also designed ascended so the base inscription uses 3 cloth, which means every armor needs it

The economy is controlled, we get to effect it, but it is by no means a free market. This is expected, but it means that many times when there is an economic problem it is the direct result of anets manipulations.

Designing best in slot to take 1 month of semi hardcore play, and 2-3 months of casual play is a bad design. Especially considering its only 1 stat selection, on one charachter. The point of their time gates was supposed to allow them to make things not as grindy, but take longer. ascended armor takes long AND requires 2 hours of grind per day for 23-28 days. even if you space it out, its still there.

Whether you are ok with grind design or not, you cannot say its not grindy, and you cant say its less grindy than other MMOs,

I do believe that Ascended weapons and armor are rather grindy, but IMHO they weren’t meant to be acquired right away by all players, and some players, including me, don’t even go for them. I don’t feel left out by refusing to join the grind. I keep having fun with full exotics, as it’s my practical BiS, and one I can play happily with. Ascended was added, after all, to appease players who wanted “something to do”-and something to do-grind for-they were given indeed.

Note I am not saying it’s “wrong” to go for Ascended, but rather that you must be willing to pay the price, or be patient and get them in a longer while.

(Ascended trinkets are not that hard to obtain nowadays, and seem to me way more practical than Ascended weapons and armor.)

Problem is, imo the answer was not grind, some people wanted long term things to work for, but you should use your rewards and goals as master of the game to promote the activities you feel enhance enjoyment from gameplay. If you want people to have a good time at a party, you dont reward them for doing things no one likes doing. You reward them for doing the fun things you want people to do at your party, like dancing, singing, drinking, eating.

You dont make people say, thats an awesome party by offering 200 dollars to the whoever does the most paperwork. And while its possible to say hey, the only way to have fun at this party is to ignore the paperwork for money offer, why would the throwers of the party offer a paperwork prize when they could be incentivizing the behavior they want people to have at the party?

The reason wow put thier items in raids, is because it was their best designed content. It showcases many of the games strengths and gives the players directions and goals. Im not saying GW2 should put items in raids, but i dont think they should be leading people to try to do whatever degenerative farming fad is going on right now, or killing 10000 too weak monsters

Suddenflame.2601:

echo.2053:

Rng needs to be increased as well as items need to be obtained only in certain areas. Rarity is what creates value. Everyday loot is spat into our faces and yet we are still unhappy. Why should we be happy with the rare sword that you got from the warm when other players got the same from elsewhere. The more common it is the lower the price.

Grind is necessary to keep interest. Your not being forced to make asc or legendaries, but then again what other real interest is there to keep you logging everyday? While I don’t like asc gear what they have done for the economy is unquestionable. Anet made the horrible mistake of allowing top end armor to be earned through dungeon tokens. However by doing that they cut out nearly all of the reason for mats. Why spend time gathering and crafting when I can get the same stat armor for free and still earn money.

You say that the amount of silk required is unreasonable but yet I willing to be you are thrilled when you salvage a few scraps. Tell me then how thrilled you are when you get thick leather? Is it more or less excitement? Is your first reaction to list it on the to or merchant/destroy it? How is it that there is such a radical difference between 2 t5 mats?

From what I get from your position is that there isn’t enough RNG to certain items?
Do you want to increase the difficulty of obtaining certain objects?

I do agree with your position however about how the RNG on most of the objects is extremely low which is generating huge supply that no one wants. It is also causing disinterest in loot drops. From what I seen no one really cares about rares expect for salvage to get ectos.

I do think there needs to be more uses for the materials and the crafting system needs a lot of work. If following the logic of other MMO’s crafting systems the higher the tier the harder it should be to craft. The current crafting system is starting to turn in this direction but needs a bit more of a push. Leather being one needing the push.

Before ascended bottom and top tiers were the easiest to make (and cheapest) but the middle tiers were actually the most expensive (some of the materials were 1-2s each). Since Ascended crafting that has leveled out and is now in a more proper triangle and not an hour glass shape.

I do agree with the design flaws mentioned with dungeon tokens and exotics. As well about the grind since that’s all the rest of the end game of other MMO’s is essentially.

1. Yes if you compare champ weapons price when they first came out to now there is a giant drop in price. Excluding precursors all exotics except for select few are 1-2 gold. Sure if rng is increased people will cry out worthless grind but in the long run items will carry more of a value. Precursors aren’t cheap because they are easy to come by.

2. By harder I mean limiting the areas in which you could obtain them. As phys said here he did doa to obtain a torment weapon. If you wanted a dhuum scythe you could only get it from the uw zone. The highly desired weapons such as chaos axe, voltaic spear and such had specific areas that you had to do.

@phys yes it is an endless grind because it’s the same results. You don’t do dungeons like you did in gw1 because there really isn’t much a point with no chance of a valued item. Anything gained in the dungeon can be earned faster outside. So then what are you left with ? Well you got 20-25 silver for rare armor 20-35 silver for rare weapon the low end being spears, tridents and the high being great sword, maybe you were lucky and got an Exotic so add 1-2 gold with a rare chance that it was valuable or had something valuable and the rest being 40copper to 1.67 silver mixed w/b/g unless you salvage them to increase your luck.

echo.2053:

Suddenflame.2601:

echo.2053:

Rng needs to be increased as well as items need to be obtained only in certain areas. Rarity is what creates value. Everyday loot is spat into our faces and yet we are still unhappy. Why should we be happy with the rare sword that you got from the warm when other players got the same from elsewhere. The more common it is the lower the price.

Grind is necessary to keep interest. Your not being forced to make asc or legendaries, but then again what other real interest is there to keep you logging everyday? While I don’t like asc gear what they have done for the economy is unquestionable. Anet made the horrible mistake of allowing top end armor to be earned through dungeon tokens. However by doing that they cut out nearly all of the reason for mats. Why spend time gathering and crafting when I can get the same stat armor for free and still earn money.

You say that the amount of silk required is unreasonable but yet I willing to be you are thrilled when you salvage a few scraps. Tell me then how thrilled you are when you get thick leather? Is it more or less excitement? Is your first reaction to list it on the to or merchant/destroy it? How is it that there is such a radical difference between 2 t5 mats?

From what I get from your position is that there isn’t enough RNG to certain items?
Do you want to increase the difficulty of obtaining certain objects?

I do agree with your position however about how the RNG on most of the objects is extremely low which is generating huge supply that no one wants. It is also causing disinterest in loot drops. From what I seen no one really cares about rares expect for salvage to get ectos.

I do think there needs to be more uses for the materials and the crafting system needs a lot of work. If following the logic of other MMO’s crafting systems the higher the tier the harder it should be to craft. The current crafting system is starting to turn in this direction but needs a bit more of a push. Leather being one needing the push.

Before ascended bottom and top tiers were the easiest to make (and cheapest) but the middle tiers were actually the most expensive (some of the materials were 1-2s each). Since Ascended crafting that has leveled out and is now in a more proper triangle and not an hour glass shape.

I do agree with the design flaws mentioned with dungeon tokens and exotics. As well about the grind since that’s all the rest of the end game of other MMO’s is essentially.

1. Yes if you compare champ weapons price when they first came out to now there is a giant drop in price. Excluding precursors all exotics except for select few are 1-2 gold. Sure if rng is increased people will cry out worthless grind but in the long run items will carry more of a value. Precursors aren’t cheap because they are easy to come by.

2. By harder I mean limiting the areas in which you could obtain them. As phys said here he did doa to obtain a torment weapon. If you wanted a dhuum scythe you could only get it from the uw zone. The highly desired weapons such as chaos axe, voltaic spear and such had specific areas that you had to do.

@phys yes it is an endless grind because it’s the same results. You don’t do dungeons like you did in gw1 because there really isn’t much a point with no chance of a valued item. Anything gained in the dungeon can be earned faster outside. So then what are you left with ? Well you got 20-25 silver for rare armor 20-35 silver for rare weapon the low end being spears, tridents and the high being great sword, maybe you were lucky and got an Exotic so add 1-2 gold with a rare chance that it was valuable or had something valuable and the rest being 40copper to 1.67 silver mixed w/b/g unless you salvage them to increase your luck.

I agree, and disagree, i agree with 2, but i dont think making items more rare is really the answer. Champ box exotics are plenty rare. Its just that frostgorge champ training has many many players opening them repeatedly, even with that, they have some that still fetch a good price.

Also note, the drop rate on DoA items wasnt that bad, the overal reward design was well done.

the reward system basically gave 10 items needed on completion, the total needed was 60, however there was also rare drops that could lessen it. Also the items were broken down, and awarded in a way that made you do different things in different orders (makes each playthrough a little different), or gave the possibility of doing only one part of the dungeon for a partial reward. The grind was low, the drop rate wasnt bad, and people did it repeatedly for years. If you did on hardmode you substantially increased gains

there are better solutions than grind. They should have used ascended to incentivize desired play, not to clean up excess materials from the TP

phys.7689:

its a grind because it requires a massive amount of simple work. whether you do a grind over 1 day or 10000 its still a grind. If somebody asks me to fill up a glass 1 grain of sand at a time its a grind, it doesnt make it less of a grind to do it over the course of 1 year or 1 day. The grind is set in stone, you can choose to power through it, or choose to do it over the course of a long period, its still a grind. A non grindy design doesnt make you put sand in a glass 1 grain at a time.

Anet is not really nature and science because they made ascended take up the materials it did as a means of economic manipulation. It has nothing to do with lore, science the nature of the world, it was basically like, we have a lot of silk, lets create a high demand for silk.

Its perfectly within the parameters of what they should be doing as the masters of the game, but it means that they are controlling the economy. The main facet of an economy is goods and services, anet altered how many silk are required to make one bolt, they doubled the teir 5 material cost for damask as compared to other teir 7 mats. That is not a free market. Its controlling goods and services.

As for your creating art comment i wish it was like creating art, i am an artist, and every artist is different some take days, others take minutes, its based on the skill, tempermant and vision of the artist. I know people who can create in 15 minutes what it takes others days to do. I know some who would prefer to take months to work on peice whereas other would rip their heads off first.

Yes but you can tell the quality of work just by looking at it. A 15min artist can make a good piece of art fast, but its quality will suffer. A big example when it comes to art is how in painting you don’t want to rush at all if you do you are going to make a huge amount of mistakes (I don’t count modern art as art I am talking historical style paintings).

They are not controlling the economy as much as you may want to think they are. The economy is controlled by the players, but Anet can influence it. Supply and Demand is how it works in GW2. You do not need Ascended to do the content of the game therefor its a want. By wanting it your creating a demand for the materials to make it.

If you did not want it than there would not be a demand meaning prices would be unaffected by its appearance. Such as if Anet threw in a really really hard to make sword legendary sword that required using 4 legendary weapons to make it but it looked the exact same as the starting sword with the stats of a legendary, there would be little to no demand for it. Its appearance in the game world would have 0 effect expect the rage of people who would criticize its very existence.

This is a free market economy where the entire market is controlled by supply and demand. Anet is only controlling supply and providing new demands much like nature, and advancement does.

Lets use your example for example about sand and putting it into a cup into proper context. Lets say you need to place 10000 grains of sand into a cup, but you can only put it in 1 at a time to get this reward that you want. Now how do you go about getting this done?

Options:

1. Spend hours each day placing each grain of sand into the cup.
2. Place a couple into the cup then go do something else for the rest of the day and repeat each day. A tiny bit extra sand grains will go in without your help.
3. Place one into the cup each time you wake up then do whatever you want. A few extra sand grains will go in without your help.
4. Ignore the reward and do what you want to do.

In option #2, #3, and #4 by playing you are still working towards the reward but indirectly even if your not actively seeking

phys.7689:

I agree, and disagree, i agree with 2, but i dont think making items more rare is really the answer. Champ box exotics are plenty rare. Its just that frostgorge champ training has many many players opening them repeatedly, even with that, they have some that still fetch a good price.

Also note, the drop rate on DoA items wasnt that bad, the overal reward design was well done.

the reward system basically gave 10 items needed on completion, the total needed was 60, however there was also rare drops that could lessen it. Also the items were broken down, and awarded in a way that made you do different things in different orders (makes each playthrough a little different), or gave the possibility of doing only one part of the dungeon for a partial reward. The grind was low, the drop rate wasnt bad, and people did it repeatedly for years. If you did on hardmode you substantially increased gains

there are better solutions than grind. They should have used ascended to incentivize desired play, not to clean up excess materials from the TP

DOA was a grind as well you are aware of that? Grind means doing same content repetitively over and over. To get the reward for DOA you need to do it 6 times for 1 reward. Farming and Grinding are the same thing just one is positive and the other negative. Champ exotic boxes are common not rare even in QDCT you can get a large number of them in a short amount of time. Also have to consider that GW1 did not have a supported economy meaning that the supply of the items was not known.

What you just described is grind and all MMORPGs use grind. All endgame is grind. At least Anet gives us new content usually every 2 weeks to negate the grind.

Suddenflame.2601:

Yes but you can tell the quality of work just by looking at it. A 15min artist can make a good piece of art fast, but its quality will suffer. A big example when it comes to art is how in painting you don’t want to rush at all if you do you are going to make a huge amount of mistakes (I don’t count modern art as art I am talking historical style paintings).

They are not controlling the economy as much as you may want to think they are. The economy is controlled by the players, but Anet can influence it. Supply and Demand is how it works in GW2. You do not need Ascended to do the content of the game therefor its a want. By wanting it your creating a demand for the materials to make it.

If you did not want it than there would not be a demand meaning prices would be unaffected by its appearance. Such as if Anet threw in a really really hard to make sword legendary sword that required using 4 legendary weapons to make it but it looked the exact same as the starting sword with the stats of a legendary, there would be little to no demand for it. Its appearance in the game world would have 0 effect expect the rage of people who would criticize its very existence.

This is a free market economy where the entire market is controlled by supply and demand. Anet is only controlling supply and providing new demands much like nature, and advancement does.

Lets use your example for example about sand and putting it into a cup into proper context. Lets say you need to place 10000 grains of sand into a cup, but you can only put it in 1 at a time to get this reward that you want. Now how do you go about getting this done?

Options:

1. Spend hours each day placing each grain of sand into the cup.
2. Place a couple into the cup then go do something else for the rest of the day and repeat each day. A tiny bit extra sand grains will go in without your help.
3. Place one into the cup each time you wake up then do whatever you want. A few extra sand grains will go in without your help.
4. Ignore the reward and do what you want to do.

In option #2, #3, and #4 by playing you are still working towards the reward but indirectly even if your actively seeking

spending more time doesnt necessarily make better art, many of the things i have worked the longest on were not my best work. However ill admit i dont place polish over inspiration.

as far as the sand issue, yes those are your options, but why would someone design such a task to begin with? its a grind and you can only choose how to handle the grind. But anet created the grind. If you want people to enjoy playing why not get them to do things that are enjoyable, or showcase the strengths of your game.

i dont have a problem with dragonite empyreals and bloodstone because you get them doing the things the game excels at. PVE empyreal is about exploration and wandering the world or dungeons. Dragonite is open world bosses with a focus on Orr temples (which are in general some of the better designed dynamic events) bloodstone is champions, which you find in open world, dungeons, fractals etc(not that great design wise but ehh you usually get enough by accident anyhow).

7200 silk on the other hand….

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

I agree, and disagree, i agree with 2, but i dont think making items more rare is really the answer. Champ box exotics are plenty rare. Its just that frostgorge champ training has many many players opening them repeatedly, even with that, they have some that still fetch a good price.

Also note, the drop rate on DoA items wasnt that bad, the overal reward design was well done.

the reward system basically gave 10 items needed on completion, the total needed was 60, however there was also rare drops that could lessen it. Also the items were broken down, and awarded in a way that made you do different things in different orders (makes each playthrough a little different), or gave the possibility of doing only one part of the dungeon for a partial reward. The grind was low, the drop rate wasnt bad, and people did it repeatedly for years. If you did on hardmode you substantially increased gains

there are better solutions than grind. They should have used ascended to incentivize desired play, not to clean up excess materials from the TP

DOA was a grind as well you are aware of that? Grind means doing same content repetitively over and over. To get the reward for DOA you need to do it 6 times for 1 reward. Farming and Grinding are the same thing just one is positive and the other negative. Champ exotic boxes are common not rare even in QDCT you can get a large number of them in a short amount of time. Also have to consider that GW1 did not have a supported economy meaning that the supply of the items was not known.

What you just described is grind and all MMORPGs use grind. All endgame is grind. At least Anet gives us new content usually every 2 weeks to negate the grind.

grind is doing a lot of the same simple repetive task over and over again.
DoA required you to beat it 4-6 times on normal or 3 times on hard. They broke up the drops so that in order to do it effeciently you take different paths, which changes the overall feel and flow of the area. To be honest, by the time me and my friend successfully duoed it to completion, i had close to enough materials for the weapon anyhow. (from fails and learning the event)
So for me it was zero grind, just in the course of learning and completing the dungeon successfully, i was able to get an item. Not every game created is a grind, though mmos often use grind as an easy answer.

phys.7689:

spending more time doesnt necessarily make better art, many of the things i have worked the longest on were not my best work. However ill admit i dont place polish over inspiration.

as far as the sand issue, yes those are your options, but why would someone design such a task to begin with? its a grind and you can only choose how to handle the grind. But anet created the grind. If you want people to enjoy playing why not get them to do things that are enjoyable, or showcase the strengths of your game.

i dont have a problem with dragonite empyreals and bloodstone because you get them doing the things the game excels at. PVE empyreal is about exploration and wandering the world or dungeons. Dragonite is open world bosses with a focus on Orr temples (which are in general some of the better designed dynamic events) bloodstone is champions, which you find in open world, dungeons, fractals etc(not that great design wise but ehh you usually get enough by accident anyhow).

7200 silk on the other hand….

If you do option #4 or option #3 there is no grind at all since your not repeating the same content. In all other MMORPG’s you have to do option #1 or you won’t ever get the reward. Such as in WoW if I don’t do raids I won’t get BiS gear. GW2 so far is the only MMORPG that allows 4 options and still work your way to the gear.

Dragonite Ore is not just for Temples it for all world bosses and the only reason why Temples gets the most is because its in the a lvl70-80 location meaning the hardest content. It also exists in Keeps and Castles in WvW fyi the hardest to capture locations. Empyreal you can get a decent amount from just taking camps in WvW and doing many things. Lately I noticed I been getting an increased amount of it meaning they added more sources. Bloodstone there is just too much of it…

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

I agree, and disagree, i agree with 2, but i dont think making items more rare is really the answer. Champ box exotics are plenty rare. Its just that frostgorge champ training has many many players opening them repeatedly, even with that, they have some that still fetch a good price.

Also note, the drop rate on DoA items wasnt that bad, the overal reward design was well done.

the reward system basically gave 10 items needed on completion, the total needed was 60, however there was also rare drops that could lessen it. Also the items were broken down, and awarded in a way that made you do different things in different orders (makes each playthrough a little different), or gave the possibility of doing only one part of the dungeon for a partial reward. The grind was low, the drop rate wasnt bad, and people did it repeatedly for years. If you did on hardmode you substantially increased gains

there are better solutions than grind. They should have used ascended to incentivize desired play, not to clean up excess materials from the TP

DOA was a grind as well you are aware of that? Grind means doing same content repetitively over and over. To get the reward for DOA you need to do it 6 times for 1 reward. Farming and Grinding are the same thing just one is positive and the other negative. Champ exotic boxes are common not rare even in QDCT you can get a large number of them in a short amount of time. Also have to consider that GW1 did not have a supported economy meaning that the supply of the items was not known.

What you just described is grind and all MMORPGs use grind. All endgame is grind. At least Anet gives us new content usually every 2 weeks to negate the grind.

grind is doing a lot of the same simple repetive task over and over again.
DoA required you to beat it 4-6 times on normal or 3 times on hard. They broke up the drops so that in order to do it effeciently you take different paths, which changes the overall feel and flow of the area. To be honest, by the time me and my friend successfully duoed it to completion, i had close to enough materials for the weapon anyhow. (from fails and learning the event)
So for me it was zero grind, just in the course of learning and completing the dungeon successfully, i was able to get an item. Not every game created is a grind, though mmos often use grind as an easy answer.

Yes but by the definition of a grind you were grinding it but it didn’t feel like doesn’t change the fact that you repeated the content over and over lol. I do not repeat the same content over and over. I actually go do many things and travel to different locations (I actually have characters set at different locations for different things i want to do the joys of having 10 characters saves me money on WP).

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

Suddenflame.2601:

phys.7689:

I agree, and disagree, i agree with 2, but i dont think making items more rare is really the answer. Champ box exotics are plenty rare. Its just that frostgorge champ training has many many players opening them repeatedly, even with that, they have some that still fetch a good price.

Also note, the drop rate on DoA items wasnt that bad, the overal reward design was well done.

the reward system basically gave 10 items needed on completion, the total needed was 60, however there was also rare drops that could lessen it. Also the items were broken down, and awarded in a way that made you do different things in different orders (makes each playthrough a little different), or gave the possibility of doing only one part of the dungeon for a partial reward. The grind was low, the drop rate wasnt bad, and people did it repeatedly for years. If you did on hardmode you substantially increased gains

there are better solutions than grind. They should have used ascended to incentivize desired play, not to clean up excess materials from the TP

DOA was a grind as well you are aware of that? Grind means doing same content repetitively over and over. To get the reward for DOA you need to do it 6 times for 1 reward. Farming and Grinding are the same thing just one is positive and the other negative. Champ exotic boxes are common not rare even in QDCT you can get a large number of them in a short amount of time. Also have to consider that GW1 did not have a supported economy meaning that the supply of the items was not known.

What you just described is grind and all MMORPGs use grind. All endgame is grind. At least Anet gives us new content usually every 2 weeks to negate the grind.

grind is doing a lot of the same simple repetive task over and over again.
DoA required you to beat it 4-6 times on normal or 3 times on hard. They broke up the drops so that in order to do it effeciently you take different paths, which changes the overall feel and flow of the area. To be honest, by the time me and my friend successfully duoed it to completion, i had close to enough materials for the weapon anyhow. (from fails and learning the event)
So for me it was zero grind, just in the course of learning and completing the dungeon successfully, i was able to get an item. Not every game created is a grind, though mmos often use grind as an easy answer.

Yes but by the definition of a grind you were grinding it but it didn’t feel like doesn’t change the fact that you repeated the content over and over lol. I do not repeat the same content over and over. I actually go do many things and travel to different locations (I actually have characters set at different locations for different things i want to do the joys of having 10 characters saves me money on WP).

I didnt repeat it over and over.
i got 60 of the necessary item in the efforts of beating it one time.

Each time you play, you can choose the opponents in a different order, which has the effect of making each run different, since you come into the area from a different side, and have to fight groups differently

to make it clear, grind is not any activity that you have to repeat more than once. Its a simple activity that you have to complete many times
Dancing for 5 minutes is not a grind
walking up 200 flights of stairs is a grind

both involve taking steps repeatedly, but dancing generally doesnt involve simple steps, also you are doing it for only 5 minutes, so its not that repetitive. 200 flights of steps is the same motion you do for one step over the course of 200 flights. sure you can take 1 step a day, or stop and hang out at every flight. But its still 200 flights of steps.

MMO companies need to stop building steps to nowhere so they can seem like they have an interesting building, the steps dont make the building interesting

I’d say grind at its purest is engaging in activity purely for the extrinsic rewards. If there are no intrinsic, you’ve got grind. No repetition required, though repetition and/or a lengthy process do make it more intolerable.

Of course, nothing is this black and white. It’s possible to still have grind when there is small intrinsic reward, but the extrinsic reward is still the predominant reason someone engages in the activity. At some point if there is enough intrinsic reward it ceases to be a grind, but that threshold is different for different people.

When people say “it’s a grind” they’re not really saying that it the activity has crossed some point of repetition. Their saying they don’t enjoy the activity, but feel the need to do it anyway to get the extrinsic reward. Hence the “daily grind” of a job. If it’s not something you would do without a paycheck at the end, it feels like a grind.

If the act of doing my job is rewarding, and I also get a paycheck out of it, then I don’t think of it as a grind, even though there is plenty of repetition and it is a, for all intents and purposes, endless task.

phys.7689:

I didnt repeat it over and over.
i got 60 of the necessary item in the efforts of beating it one time.

Each time you play, you can choose the opponents in a different order, which has the effect of making each run different, since you come into the area from a different side, and have to fight groups differently

to make it clear, grind is not any activity that you have to repeat more than once. Its a simple activity that you have to complete many times
Dancing for 5 minutes is not a grind
walking up 200 flights of stairs is a grind

both involve taking steps repeatedly, but dancing generally doesnt involve simple steps, also you are doing it for only 5 minutes, so its not that repetitive. 200 flights of steps is the same motion you do for one step over the course of 200 flights. sure you can take 1 step a day, or stop and hang out at every flight. But its still 200 flights of steps.

MMO companies need to stop building steps to nowhere so they can seem like they have an interesting building, the steps dont make the building interesting

GW2 tried not putting any steps to nowhere, but the majority of people were not playing by November 2012 just before (FOTM and Ascended release which was a rushed release to counter the declining player base). Not sure you were playing than, but it was pretty quite back then. So if you can find a way to keep 80% of the player base without putting in any form of grind into a game especially for endgame content, great I would love to see your business model and game design. You would also be a millionaire overnight.

Suddenflame.2601:

GW2 tried not putting any steps to nowhere, but the majority of people were not playing by November 2012 just before (FOTM and Ascended release which was a rushed release to counter the declining player base). Not sure you were playing than, but it was pretty quite back then.

I was playing then, and it didn’t look like that to me at all.

I’ve also since gone back and read through the first few months of forum posts to see if there really was a great hew and cry for gear progression. There wasn’t. Anyone can go back and look for themselves. You’ll find as many people, if not more, defending GW2 as different in a good way because of its power plateau as people complaining.

Most of the complaints were about not having new things to do, not new carrots to chase, and even those weren’t a majority of the forum traffic.

The forums have been telling themselves that GW2 was crashing and burning two months after release, but the only evidence we have for that is that Ascended got introduced, which is awfully circular.

“Ascended was released because population was crashing. You can tell because Ascended was released.”

Aidenwolf.5964:

Star Ace.5207:

Aidenwolf.5964:

The elements of an MMO which I have loved for many years and which make it my primary style of game are exploration and reward. GW2 is a place to explore, Tyria is beautiful and varied, but as for rewards, this game falls to the bottom of all games in the genre that I’ve played. If you want something in this game earn gold and buy it in the trading post? That’s a tragic game flaw.

While I don’t share your negativity about the game, gold, and the TP (no offense intended), I do wish exploration would be more rewarding other than map completion rewards and full exploration Legendary gifts. So that people who just love the universe would be a bit more rewarded if they chose not to do any Dungeons that particular day (not saying that rewards should be the same as doing Dungeons-just a bit more rewarding overall.)

No offense taken. I would love to have exploration and all aspects of the game be more rewarding. The entire loot system needs to be changed now for that to happen IMO. With the introduction of a higher gear tier, the drops need to reward rares as frequently as they do masterwork currently for that to occur. This game is in trouble and needs help.

Suddenflame.2601:

I am not avoiding the issue because it is not an issue. 2000 hours played no precursor drop is not an issue.

It is for most people. the fact that you personally don’t think its an issue is only indicative of your subjective point of view.

Suddenflame.2601:

The issue would be if they didn’t drop at all, but we know that they do drop and pretty frequently

I do not think that word means what you think it means. If the majority of the playerbase has had no percursor drop for them in thousands of hours of play then it is not frequent.

morrolan.9608:

Suddenflame.2601:

I am not avoiding the issue because it is not an issue. 2000 hours played no precursor drop is not an issue.

It is for most people. the fact that you personally don’t think its an issue is only indicative of your subjective point of view.

Suddenflame.2601:

The issue would be if they didn’t drop at all, but we know that they do drop and pretty frequently

I do not think that word means what you think it means. If the majority of the playerbase has had no percursor drop for them in thousands of hours of play then it is not frequent.

Look at trading post for how many there is being sold. There is a decent number being sold meaning a large supply.

Suddenflame.2601:

Look at trading post for how many there is being sold. There is a decent number being sold meaning a large supply.

Not on a per player basis, its just indicative of the population of the game. This is one of the issues with the TP, arenanet look at it in totality and totally disregard the individual players. This post does a great job of explaining it:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/The-game-relies-too-much-in-the-TP/page/6#post3536464