Guild Wars 2

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Essence Snow.3194:

djsarcher.9263:

I think at this point it would be interesting to hear what John’s thoughts are on the discussion so far, and whether we’re hitting the right balance between discussing conceptual ideas and potential implementations of those ideas.

He’s not going to like anything that deviates from what has become a comfort zone. The economy is rather complex and by this point managing it most likely has fallen into rhythm like any other job. Anything that disrupts it will have a rippling effect, which would require lots of work. So like most any change will be met with animosity (in this case under a guise of pr).

So essentially what you’re saying is that if he doesn’t agree with you, Phys, Ohoni, etc then it’s because he doesn’t want to put in the effort to make them work rather than your ideas simply not working with the goals that Anet has?

I, and many others, would like a raise at work. Our company make a decent profit every year. They can afford to find a way to give us all raises otherwise they’re just being lazy as it would put them outside their comfort zone and disrupt the rhythm of their jobs.

why are you throwing my name in your arguement. My ideas arent particularly relevant to your statement

Sorry. It wasn’t in regards to his statement but the fact you guys all have the same general belief on how things should be. That’s why your name was included.

Edit: I’ll revise that particular sentence.

actually really dont. Ohoni is in general way more casual focused than i am, and essence is in general more for centralized solutions. However they notice certain flaws and look for solutions, in that we are similar.

It’s unpleasant and unfair. And it doesn’t feel like rng at all, I know people that got 6+ precursors and I didn’t even get 1 and I play twice as much as them. That’s not rng.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487357
maybe it is true or maybe not
i try to believe your words but there is no proof for something like that ;D
but with insane extrem luck accounts out there
sometthing is wrong
and sure you not tell us what caused that outliers
because some people would rly try to abuse it

1.change acccount bound rng to character based rng => this way you can still have some bad and good characters
but the possibilty off insane luck and bad luck accounts is nearly zero

2.maybe more magic find=> Utilityinfusion rings accesorie and back piece
combined with some leather accesorie for jewel crafter maybe solve the leather supply isue as well

3.precursor chest=> the higher demanded ones get a higher supply and the lower ones raise in price and maybe balance on a better level
and maybe fractal weapon chest plz

4.gw1 collecots for junk items to get the items we whant that charge lodestone example some other told in this traad would be fine

5.yes more adventure box based rewards would be fine
or dry top amber weapons
one set for each area/region

but to answer the question question i prefer 1 mixed with 2.5 for regions
uh and don t forget to add a cinnamon star recipe for christmas
30%-40mf and 250cinnamon each cookie
to burn down the actual 4mio on trading post

Riesty.9075:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487357
maybe it is true or maybe not
i try to believe your words but there is no proof for something like that ;D
but with insane extrem luck accounts out there
sometthing is wrong
and sure you not tell us what caused that outliers
because some people would rly try to abuse it

1.change acccount bound rng to character based rng => this way you can still have some bad and good characters
but the possibilty off insane luck and bad luck accounts is nearly zero

2.maybe more magic find=> omniinfusion rings accesorie and back piece
combined with some leather accesorie for jewel crafter maybe solve the leather supply isue as well

3.precursor chest=> the higher demanded ones get a higher supply and the lower ones raise in price and maybe balance on a better level
and maybe fractal weapon chest plz

4.gw1 collecots for junk items to get the items we whant that charge lodestone example some other told in this traad would be fine

5.yes more adventure box based rewards would be fine
or dry top amber weapons
one set for each area/region

but to answer the question question i prefer 1 mixed with 2.5 for regions
uh and don t forget to add a cinnamon star recipe for christmas
30%-40mf and 250cinnamon each cookie
to burn down the actual 4mio on trading post

outliers are a natural occurence with a random model, in any situation. Its not the the system assigns people to be outliers, its that it will happen to someone.

phys.7689:

outliers are a natural occurence with a random model, in any situation. Its not the the system assigns people to be outliers, its that it will happen to someone.

yes and no
you know the system behind? no?
there is no perfect formular out there …
maybe there is a random seed or other stuff creating insane luck or doomed acc
there are enough good and crazy theories about that in this forum ( the mysterius number behind our names here, creation time, day and time…)
they never ever tell us the formular thats a save bed
maybe they mix/change it every patch/every month to be more fair
maybe next month you got one off the insane luck acc
the only thing we know mf is somehow included/involved in that formular and maybe achievment point mf strong tthen normal one
but its hard to made good suggestions with such top secret lag of information

look at the tread he ask a simpl question and it not takes long
until the first of several persons come up with the precursors
i have problem with that as well
but for me there are other examples for insane luck
if a person harvest a singel oricalcum vein one time and get more orbs than oricalum gg you are fortuned
if persons with such insane luck are able to farm charged cores because they easyer get them as a drop gg you are fortune

don t get me wrong
thank you john that you ask something like that in this forum
but at that rate of information on the system in place
we are only able to specualte and simpl answer your question
even if we believe in our owen “good” idears
and i rly like some of the stuff people wrote down in this tread
you see stuff i would change there maybe not the best idears but i like them

if you ask me for reward system in general my answer would be different
i prefer a karma reward push/boost for exmaple
not the amount you earn but the items you get from it
i like the karma weapons and i am kittened that there is actual no collection for this weapons
but a cashshop weapon collection…
i would like to see 3 historian for tyria elona and cantha in durmand priory telling you about some documents they found
with old historian armor selling you all gw1 elite armor 500 000karma
each chest with a full skin set (each peace sepaeratet like a armor not cash shop skin)
and this armor would work slightly different
we get a new wardrobe tab with special armor inclueding those
alowing all professions to use them as usually ( first skin use free and after transmutation christals)
this way i can use maybe a plate armor with my elementalist if i whant
the only thing to do is polish old armor and reskin a little for char and asura

if you ask me for cash shop in general my answer would be
why become more and more pay to win (good dam i hate the infinite adventure box token and some other stuff)
but not use the most obvius thing DANCES
working like the finisher system
standart first one based one race and gender
and behind it free choice on buyed one same as finisher system
you can reuse all gw1 animations dances and sell them like finisher
there is no need to polish
all can have the same animation all race and gender
the one for gw1 female necro for example
call it thriller and sell it for finisher prices
i suggest that since 2 years but no idear why its still not ingame
maybe to complicated and hard to implent not sure about that

but to answer the question once more
so yes again i go with 1 and 2.5 token system for areas
maybe 4 areas map completet for 1 region enough tokens for 1 weapon

if you read all this sry for my bad english and ty for ya time

Cormac.3871:

Roybe.5896:

A series of links about random factors, perception, and business decisions based on these perceptions

https://www.princeton.edu/~osherson/papers/Ranperc.pdf

https://www.problemgambling.ca/EN/Documents/HPG%20Probabilty%20Final.pdf

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jun/08/slot-machine-lose-lose-situation

There are a lot of pages here and you didn’t give a summary, so I went to a random paragraph and read it. I didn’t find that paragraph useful, just bad RNG I guess.

The first article deals with a scientific study/peer reviewed paper on peoples ability to spot non random items and their ability to explain why something is none random.

The second deals with the myths of gambling (RNG) I cannot get it to come up, here’s a different link with similar points:

http://www.rgrc.org/en/problem-gambling/gambling-myths

The last one is an article discussing the above, within the context of business and how these businesses have altered the experience with slot machines to increase profitability.

My reason for posting this here is to add to the discussion of RNG, and how it’s important, how to design proper experiences, and discuss ways to design healthier uses of this method of ‘reward’.

Riesty.9075:

phys.7689:

outliers are a natural occurence with a random model, in any situation. Its not the the system assigns people to be outliers, its that it will happen to someone.

yes and no
you know the system behind? no?
there is no perfect formular out there …
maybe there is a random seed or other stuff creating insane luck or doomed acc
there are enough good and crazy theories about that in this forum ( the mysterius number behind our names here, creation time, day and time…)
they never ever tell us the formular thats a save bed
maybe they mix/change it every patch/every month to be more fair
maybe next month you got one off the insane luck acc
the only thing we know mf is somehow included/involved in that formular and maybe achievment point mf strong tthen normal one
but its hard to made good suggestions with such top secret lag of information

if you read all this sry for my bad english and ty for ya time

See thing is, it doesnt really matter if it is a flawed random assigning people to be these outliers or not. In a real random, given enough trials you will see the same result.

The fact comes down to flaws in human understanding/perception. Developers, and players without thinking about it, assume random is fair, because everyone has the same probability, right?
perhaps, but with random distribution, everyone will not have the same reality. In probability, random is very fair, but in reality it is not fair at all. Natural random distribution suggests that in actual reality some people will get screwed, and some people will be gods.
if you believe/feel you are the screwed person, the system will be highly unsatisfactory.

Something like this, with book you could read and get special items after you did the small missions.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bonus_Mission_Pack

RNG is bad. Final stop.

John,

Are the candy wrappers the last of it? RNG wrappers out of ToT bags to RNG a chance to win an item? A lottery ticket for another lottery ticket? It’s awful.

Personally I like the idea of RNG for the generation of goods, but not as a way to acquire them. I know I’m an outlier in this, but I actually like the current state precursors are in, where both trading and RNG are viable options. If you get a precursor drop you don’t want you can use it to come far closer to getting the one you’re after.

In GW1 there was a large number of rare skins, and getting one could allow you to trade for the one you want, however I feel like there is simply not enough you can use to trade with in GW2. It should feel rewarding to get any rare drop, even one you are not interested in.

I’m probably wrong on a number of things here, but this is the way things seem from my perspective.

Iason Evan.3806:

Are the candy wrappers the last of it? RNG wrappers out of ToT bags to RNG a chance to win an item? A lottery ticket for another lottery ticket? It’s awful.

It’s worth keeping in mind that this wasn’t the only place where the heavy hand of RNG appeared this Halloween.

I farmed the labyrinth daily to get and open 1-2 full stacks of Trick-or-Treat bags almost every day during this Halloween event seeking a Mini Gwynefyrdd (the mini is quite cute). It’s 1) account-bound and 2) very rare/completely RNG-based.

I kept pushing on, telling myself the next bag could be the one containing that item…

…but at the end of the two-week event, I wound up failing in my personal goal I had set of getting the mini. Didn’t get any of the other rare (non-account-bound) Halloween items to sell either, so I’m not that well off for having engaged in this process.

The process of trying for Mini Gwynefyrdd wasn’t “challenging,” just tiring. And I understand there are people out there who got the mini who weren’t interested in it or who may have even gotten duplicates they cannot do anything with.

Point is, RNG this Halloween was pretty severe, and it didn’t really have a whole lot of “fun factor.” I tried to walk away from this Halloween with the one item I really wanted. I thought it was a reasonable goal I could set myself and work toward, but astronomically low odds meant otherwise, it seems. Each bag wasn’t “progress” toward my goal, just another dice roll with terrible odds. When I set out, I figured since it was an account-bound item that it would be reasonable to get. But I was wrong, and for me, it just wasn’t very fun, is all… That has been my most recent experience with RNG and it left a very sour taste in my mouth.

The Mini Gwynefyrdd situation is one that I feel suits my proposal of “accumulate tokens” perfectly. Imagine if the situation was as follows:

- Mini Gwynefyrdd is as rare a drop as it is now, but it is tradable.
- You can also acquire Mini Gwynefyrdd by trading 250 Shiny Foil Wrappers to Terksli; at an approximate 1% chance per ToT bag, this means you’d need to open about 2500 ToT bags. Alternatively, maybe you can trade in 25 refined Nougat + Fangs + Skulls, to provide a big sink for those items. This gives you an account bound version of the minipet.
- Players who do happen to get the tradable Gwynefyrdd get the “OMG, what a windfall!” bonus. Players who have no luck, or would rather work towards a concrete goal, can at least buy the tradable version, or acquire an account bound version for their own personal use.

Zaxares.5419:

The Mini Gwynefyrdd situation is one that I feel suits my proposal of “accumulate tokens” perfectly. Imagine if the situation was as follows:

- Mini Gwynefyrdd is as rare a drop as it is now, but it is tradable.
- You can also acquire Mini Gwynefyrdd by trading 250 Shiny Foil Wrappers to Terksli; at an approximate 1% chance per ToT bag, this means you’d need to open about 2500 ToT bags. Alternatively, maybe you can trade in 25 refined Nougat + Fangs + Skulls, to provide a big sink for those items. This gives you an account bound version of the minipet.
- Players who do happen to get the tradable Gwynefyrdd get the “OMG, what a windfall!” bonus. Players who have no luck, or would rather work towards a concrete goal, can at least buy the tradable version, or acquire an account bound version for their own personal use.

I am all for systems where RNG serves as the “OMG, what a windfall!” bonus you are describing, but where there are either tokens or some sort of increasing-odds that get you closer to 100% until you get it. Either way, we agree that RNG is getting downright silly.

So I just have to say that I fully support your post/idea here, and feel like it would have made my interaction with this Halloween event a lot more fun and a lot less depressing. I set one goal for myself this Halloween, and I put in a lot of effort toward it, but since it was purely RNG-based, I could not accomplish my personal goal. Made me feel like I was walking away from the event really empty-handed. Starting to feel like “fun” isn’t as high on the priority list as… whatever it is that all this is.

Maybe I’m just a statistical outlier on the low end, but that should just prove the point that “on average it’s fine across the population” is not the same as “for an individual user it’s fine.” There should be some measures – any measures – to throw a proverbial bone to the person who finds themselves at the statistically-improbable end of the stick. I’m not saying to stop looking at things from the macro perspective, just suggesting that you also try to look at it standing in that unlucky guy’s shoes as well. With respect to Mini Gwynefyrdd I am very much feeling like “that guy” right now and I gotta tell ya, the view from here? Not that pretty. :/

I assume Gwynefyrdd is not a good example of RNG mechanics relation to the topic of this thread. This is because it is so extremely rare and account bound. Gwynefyrdd is a random gift to some random players, not an item to put into the economy. Not something someone can reasonably acquire. It must be gifted.

I have an example, don’t know if it is understandable in English – it originates in the German carnival (Fastnacht). We have carnival processions, and the public is literally showered with sweeties (Kamelle) from the parade float. Imagine there are barrels over barels of sweeties, and someone mixes a tiny bag with 10 pices of praline into the barrels of sweeties. After the procession, you can be sure that 10 people got a praline. But you cannot tell who this is. And nobody in the crowd was able to influence the probability of getting a praline.

This is what happened with Gwynefyrdd. Not an item to collect, but simply a gift that is given to you or not.
Of course, you could go to the procession and spread a bed sheet to collect more sweeties, but usually you don’t do this, and you cannot be sure to get a praline even with a bed sheet.

Shpongle.6025:

It’s unpleasant and unfair. And it doesn’t feel like rng at all, I know people that got 6+ precursors and I didn’t even get 1 and I play twice as much as them. That’s not rng.

Not working in your favor doesn’t make it unfair.

Finally at rank 65 got an ascended item from pvp……..unfortunately it was a ring with crap stats. It’s kinda sad when friends in game apologize to you for your drops.

Sariel V.7024:

Shpongle.6025:

It’s unpleasant and unfair. And it doesn’t feel like rng at all, I know people that got 6+ precursors and I didn’t even get 1 and I play twice as much as them. That’s not rng.

Not working in your favor doesn’t make it unfair.

What makes unfair is different people putting in the same effort and getting different results. Gambling is always unfair, thats its strength and why many people enjoy it.
But having gambling (with low odds) as the primary means of achieving something should be something that is very rare and limited

So I’ve done teq 60-70 times. No horde. Still a clustering illusion, huh?

How about This Thread—-Will it make any difference what so ever? Discuss

I have another example John of what is to me, bad RNG or rather poorly explained RNG. In the new zone bags are handed out for completing events. This in and of itself is fine. The problem is that bags aren’t covered by the Magic Find we have worked so hard to increase. The mobs also don’t really drop a whole lot of loot. Are the bags in the new map affected by Magic Find? If not, I think it would be a good thing to have those bags in particular affected by our magic find to still have it be viable as a mechanic of the game. If it’s not, then what is my impetus to keep replaying this new awesome zone? Why would I do so when there are other regions that would be more rewarding?

I think keeping the loot as bags for completing the events there is a good thing, but I also think having the bags there be affected by Magic Find would keep players coming back and I know I want too. It is one of only 3 new maps we have received since this game came out over 2 years ago.

Players want to be rewarded and feel rewarded at the same time. It’s one thing that you guys only put one waypoint in the new zone. It’s quite another when we can’t sell to the merchants there and only buy from them. It’s also disconcerting when you give us a new currency to use but don’t include said currency in the wallet.

There are all these little things that can add up quickly to feel like a major annoyance in what is in my opinion the best release in a long time sans these minor issues. Please consider letting all the bags in this new zone be affected by Magic Find and if they are, please make it more apparent that it is the case in game.

I promise that constructive discussion and criticism are far more likely to make a difference than passive-aggressive comments.

Perhaps, although 100 times 0 is the same as 1 times 0.

Ohoni.6057:

I promise that constructive discussion and criticism are far more likely to make a difference than passive-aggressive comments.

Perhaps, although 100 times 0 is the same as 1 times 0.

This comment, for example, wont make a difference.

Exactly my point.

John Smith.4610:

2. Implement measures that counteract low-end outlier behavior inside of game design. This would be a system that is something like: If player hasn’t received a rare drop in X time send them Y tickets for random drops.

2.5: “Add secondary reward mechanisms (ie. token based system) alongside the primary RNG system; allow progress to be made even when you don’t get the result you want.”

Obviously these are hyper-simplified descriptions, but I don’t want this to get too long.

I don’t really like 2 because I’m the kind of guy who can get 100% chance to crit and hit 10 times without a crit.

2.5 is great.
I don’t get luck ? That’s no big deal, I’ll get the item sooner or later !

Edit : When you think about token, you don’t think about random drop in a range, right ? right !?!
I mean, I kill tequatl, I got 1 mega world boss token and with XX tokens, I can buy a mini-tequatl.

I support the 2.5 because everyone is on the same flat level.

what if you introduce an event based on a combination of n different more likely events in sequence which boosts the chance to get x?

would this benefit player who spend more time or worsen their situation?

the sequence itself is randomized and the drops in sequence could look like: shield (x % chance) → bag of goods (x% chance to drop)→ x-y amount of gold (gold find ) → rare lvl 61 etched shaman spoon → 3 geodes =>
results in an event happening that doubles the drop chance for a precursor for the next drop(s)

targeted farming would be impossible as well, as the sequence is generated randomly from a table. if you then add more “veteran specific” drops like geodes to the prerequisites (while leaving a base of very common items) you could fine tune this according to what part of the game you guys think could be more rewarding when it comes to those rare drops.

the biggest issue is the necessary, extremely low drop rate of some items which require millions of hours of playtime. collectively this works but for an individual player it is impossible to get a sample size large enough for the rng to most likely appear fair.

a player who spends more time in game will most likely trigger more more likely events and using those more likely events as a factor is better than “so sorry here’s a token” I think.

This would require the game to check every drop and compare it to the changing “magic sequence” but I can’t even guess how complicated this would be in execution or how taxing for the servers.

Would a shorter sequence be way less taxing?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Does-magicfind-booster-work-on-bandit-chests

Here is another prime example of mechanics not making sense or being poorly explained or implemented. It’s really convoluted. I don’t think the system should be changed but rather it should be explained better. Players deserve to know how the game they are playing functions. What are the rules? If I don’t understand, how do I get the most benefit out of what I am doing?

You really need to be more open exactly how Magic Find works, im just 1 of many players in the game that has pushed the base MF to 300%, and with boosters it can be upwards of 500% , yet a friend of mine has no faith in MF at all, infact he called it Magic Beans, and a total waste of gold, and I swear sometimes hes right, we can do dungeons/fractals and he will come out with 6 or 7 rares and 2 or 3 exotics and I will get maybe 1 rare yet my MF is 450% higher,

MF really doesn’t seem to work with the current RnG system, ( im aware how MF is supposed to work with the tables etc ) but I sometimes wonder if my friend is right, and it is a total waste of time/effort/gold if some RnG table decides the drops.

MF doesn’t work if you’re expectations for how it should work isn’t how it works. Make sense?

Obtena.7952:

MF doesn’t work if you’re expectations for how it should work isn’t how it works. Make sense?

magic find is supposed to be a stat that increases your odds of getting good stuff. But the game is changing so less and less stuff comes from enemies.
Hence magic find is becoming a more and more useless stat. It would be fine if only certain goods were not involved. But more and more often we see monsters with no drops.-

also i think the bag versus magic find thing was a system created for a different time. Its an issue, but so far it still has use.

magic find is supposed to be a stat that increases your odds of getting good stuff. But the game is changing so less and less stuff comes from enemies.
Hence magic find is becoming a more and more useless stat. It would be fine if only certain goods were not involved. But more and more often we see monsters with no drops.-

also i think the bag versus magic find thing was a system created for a different time. Its an issue, but so far it still has use.

Yeah, the core idea of MF is “MF makes more and better stuff drop,” but this only applies sometimes and not others, and this is unclear to the casual observer. They need to do a better job of highlighting when MF is having an effect and when not, like maybe have loot that could have been effected by MF shows up with a different UI color in the right-side “you got loot” panel, or just have a clear description when you hover over the MF stat that lists what it effects.

Ideally though, they would just make MF effect ANY loot-generating source.

Loot table are too wide and it makes them opaque.
I got the impression that every mob can loot over 1.000 items.

If it’s true, this is why I don’t like the idea of RNG-increment (prop. 2).
When did we stop to increase chance of loot, at the first yellow ?

John Smith.4610:

I promise that constructive discussion and criticism are far more likely to make a difference than passive-aggressive comments.

LOL—Ditto.

But really, as an outlier——RNG, as it works in this game, is very frustrating.
Hopefully you can come up with a way for those that don’t decent drops as well as those that get multiple precusor drops.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

MF doesn’t work if you’re expectations for how it should work isn’t how it works. Make sense?

magic find is supposed to be a stat that increases your odds of getting good stuff. But the game is changing so less and less stuff comes from enemies.
Hence magic find is becoming a more and more useless stat. It would be fine if only certain goods were not involved. But more and more often we see monsters with no drops.-

also i think the bag versus magic find thing was a system created for a different time. Its an issue, but so far it still has use.

That just depends on the content being done. MF still works, it’s just not working on the things people want it to work on … hence my statement. For the content I do, MF is amazing and has a noticeable impact to my earnings.

I like 2.5

Very simple to add to it is by achievements. After X amounts of tequalt you get a free teq ascended box. After X amounts of lvl80 rare weapon in the mystic forge, you get a free precursor.

laokoko.7403:

I like 2.5

Very simple to add to it is by achievements. After X amounts of tequalt you get a free teq ascended box. After X amounts of lvl80 rare weapon in the mystic forge, you get a free precursor.

but getting something when you do it long enough is just the pure form of grind. I’d rather see the achievement-system involved in a way that your luck on getting better drops from a specific enemy scales with the number of achievements you’ve completed for this boss.

We have 10 achievements for Tequatl, each giving a specific amount of achievement-points. What if you also get a Magic Find buff with each achievement (more for harder ones, proportional to the amount of AP you get) that is permanent and active at that bossfight.

example: player XY has

• “I found it” – 5 AP —-> +10% MF
• “Above the waves” – 10AP —-> +20% MF
• “Tail Flail” – 5AP —-> +10% MF

—> 10%20%10% = +40% MF during the Tequatl-Meta

This way players who are skilled enough to get all the achievements quite fast have the advantage of getting better chances sooner than other players who won’t bother and auto-afk the boss.

Suggestion:
-) add some temporary achievements for Tequatl to the permanent achievements in order to increase MF even more for dedicated players.
-) When having the title “The Sunbringer” active, you have an aura which gives players in your party a non-stacking MF buff as well.

TL;DR: there should be a way to reward players who actively achieve something (rather than being very passive) with much better drop-chances imho. The achievement system would be a nice tracker for this. Added temporary achievements keep the players active instead of doing all boss-achievements once and then start being passive too.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

but getting something when you do it long enough is just the pure form of grind. I’d rather see the achievement-system involved in a way that your luck on getting better drops from a specific enemy scales with the number of achievements you’ve completed for this boss.

We have 10 achievements for Tequatl, each giving a specific amount of achievement-points. What if you also get a Magic Find buff with each achievement (more for harder ones, proportional to the amount of AP you get) that is permanent and active at that bossfight.

example: player XY has

• “I found it” – 5 AP —-> +10% MF
• “Above the waves” – 10AP —-> +20% MF
• “Tail Flail” – 5AP —-> +10% MF

—> 10%20%10% = +40% MF during the Tequatl-Meta

This way players who are skilled enough to get all the achievements quite fast have the advantage of getting better chances sooner than other players who won’t bother and auto-afk the boss.

Suggestion:
-) add some temporary achievements for Tequatl to the permanent achievements in order to increase MF even more for dedicated players.
-) When having the title “The Sunbringer” active, you have an aura which gives players in your party a non-stacking MF buff as well.

TL;DR: there should be a way to reward players who actively achieve something (rather than being very passive) with much better drop-chances imho. The achievement system would be a nice tracker for this. Added temporary achievements keep the players active instead of doing all boss-achievements once and then start being passive too.

I like it, except magic find is only creature-kills. Not champion bags, not event chests, not the Mystic Forge, not even world boss event chests.

And the creatures at Tequatl don’t drop loot.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

They only work on creature kills, chests however have a better table then normal kills. We wanted to avoid the game play of killing a boss and then having to equip your whole Magic Find set before opening the chest.

Also magic find is calculated from when the creature is killed so it’s also not viable to use your normal gear set kill a boss then switch to magic find.

laokoko.7403:

I like 2.5

Very simple to add to it is by achievements. After X amounts of tequalt you get a free teq ascended box. After X amounts of lvl80 rare weapon in the mystic forge, you get a free precursor.

I prefer this method it even if people say its a grind you at least know your working towards something in the end and you would receive a reward

BlkPrince.2854:

laokoko.7403:

I like 2.5

Very simple to add to it is by achievements. After X amounts of tequalt you get a free teq ascended box. After X amounts of lvl80 rare weapon in the mystic forge, you get a free precursor.

I prefer this method it even if people say its a grind you at least know your working towards something in the end and you would receive a reward

It feels weird to say this but I do like this idea. At least it would feel like some of use weren’t on RNjeasus’ bad side. I mean I’ve pretty much given up on getting anything but runes of the sunless and spoons from teq… been doing Teq everyday since his reboot and have yet to see a Teq Horde.

I know RNG is a fact of life but it does suck for those of us on the unlucky side of things.

Buttercup.5871:

In the same manner that my thousands of forges and thousands of hours played feel without ever getting a precursor, so does the Halloween raffle feel having handed in up to 1k tickets and winning nothing (while others who hand in 2 to 3 tickets win).

I understand why it can happen, but that doesn’t make the experience feel any better. It just leaves you with a very bitter taste. You can talk about this all you want, but I consider that it is – bluntly put – your job as game designers to prevent this from happening to me and many, many others like me, over and over and over again.

Well said

Artanis.4963:

I like it, except magic find is only creature-kills. Not champion bags, not event chests, not the Mystic Forge, not even world boss event chests.

And the creatures at Tequatl don’t drop loot.

thanks! Well it could always be adjusted, just like the magic find buff in Silverwastes, which works on chest loot as far as I know. This temporary buff I’m suggesting would work for the content of Tequatls loot-chests and champion bags.

Soren.9316:

It feels weird to say this but I do like this idea. At least it would feel like some of use weren’t on RNjeasus’ bad side. I mean I’ve pretty much given up on getting anything but runes of the sunless and spoons from teq… been doing Teq everyday since his reboot and have yet to see a Teq Horde.

I think choosing the lesser evil is not a good idea for a system which should be satisfying for most players.

purecontact.1680:

Loot table are too wide and it makes them opaque.
I got the impression that every mob can loot over 1.000 items.

slaps ruler into palm
Next person to whine about this is getting assigned some homework.

I agree with you though that the idea of a luck incrementer is a bad idea. The game engine is agnostic of what a player values a piece of gear. Most players would much prefer a Berserker’s exotic over a Magi’s, but the game engine doesn’t know this and treats them both as equals. Likewise, player value of different Runes and Sigils fluctuates over time, but the game engine cannot ascess [sp] this in the same terms. Even value itself has changed over time – 5 gold was a fortune at launch, and now it’s a pittance for many. And don’t get me started on the whining about ‘bad’ precursors; there’s a whole other thread for that already.

Any good solution must incorporate something that can be algorithmically defined, and defined in quantifiable terms. This isn’t just engineer-speak. You have to remember that the devs don’t have an army of interns always monitoring you and your personal opinions on various items in order to make a feedback system that will tick off what you thought was a worthwhile drop and what wasn’t. (Holy run-on sentence Batman).

laokoko.7403:

I like 2.5

Very simple to add to it is by achievements. After X amounts of tequalt you get a free teq ascended box. After X amounts of lvl80 rare weapon in the mystic forge, you get a free precursor.

Not a fan exactly.

Here’s why. The thing I feel GW2 has gotten most right is that I don’t feel forced to do any activity in particular in order to make progress towards most goals I can set for myself. Sure, a few skins like Sunless, Triple Wurm, or Fractal weapon have only a single way to get, but most other things you can eventually save up enough gold to buy, and you get gold from doing most everything (even in small amounts).

However, accumulating gold doesn’t really feel like progression. Even accumulating everything you need for a legendary doesn’t feel like progress when you know that precursor will never, ever drop, and you’re going to have to grind out all that gold by doing the best time-for-gold activities just to keep up with the slowly increasing price of them on the TP.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

We have 10 achievements for Tequatl, each giving a specific amount of achievement-points. What if you also get a Magic Find buff with each achievement (more for harder ones, proportional to the amount of AP you get) that is permanent and active at that bossfight.

example: player XY has

• “I found it” – 5 AP —-> +10% MF
• “Above the waves” – 10AP —-> +20% MF
• “Tail Flail” – 5AP —-> +10% MF

—> 10%20%10% = +40% MF during the Tequatl-Meta

Not a fan of this, either. It’s got the grind of needing to do the same thing over and over, with the even worse feature of extremely-low-probability events modified by insignificant bonus. Even if you made the magic find or equivalent +1000%, it is not going to feel better in the end. +1000% is only 10x your base rate. If buying 10 lotto tickets actually significantly improved your chances of hitting a multi-million jackpot, we’d all be millionaires. But it doesn’t in real life, and it won’t in game. You’re going to get alot more greens and yellows and even a few trash exotics, but it still won’t feel like you got anything – except if you’re one of the luckiest blessed by RNG.

(cont’d)

So I’m going to bring up what I did early in this thread again. A generalized PvE reward track system. There is so much good about the PvP reward tracks. In almost all of PvP, you’re gaining progression no matter what you’re doing – whether it’s hotjoin, solo queue, or team queue. Whether you’re winning or losing. Sure, the amount varies on activity and success, but you’re always moving forward to the reward. The amount you get by doing certain things is known. How far along you are is known – and importantly is visible. You can switch between tracks without losing progress on the original. And it’s expandable (and I hope from a code perspective, scalable).

A very generalized PvE reward track system that could work towards desirable items. Doing most PvE things would award some progress. Maybe killing a mob gives you 1 point (up to some daily limit). Completing a heart or doing an event is 5 points. A daily world boss 10 to 30. A dungeon path 50 to 500 based on time/difficulty. Maybe an underwater precursor is 100,000 points, an offhand is 200k, a main-hand 500k, and a two-hand is 750k. Maybe a bag of 3 to 5 T6 fine materials is 1000. 20-slot bags for 10k. Just throwing numbers and ideas out.

can it be seen as a grind? yes, but it’s a game-wide, do just-about-anything-you-feel-is-fun kind of grind. Would it replace gold or karma as a currency? To some extent, yes, but for most uses, no it wouldn’t. Gold would still be the standard means of exchange for everyday things, and this could be the locked-in, account-bound long-term progression towards individualized goals (assuming there are enough options to work towards). Karma feels like a dead currency to me for everything but obsidian shards, and a few other limited use items and I don’t think you’ll ever really bring it back because of the great variations and problems in how it was awarded from the early days.

Maybe it’s because I work in project management, but I like this idea because from the outside perspective, it seems both the best solution and would take the least amount of extra resources. I’d imagine much of the code from PvP tracks should be re-usable, so not a lot of extra resources would be needed there. It will take a lot of number crunching and decisions on what activities should award progress, how much they should reward, what rewards will be offered and their costs. But once the decision is made, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of unknowns to deal with.

Good things from the economy side – I’d think this would be easy to track and you already know how often we’re doing most of the activities (how many oozes have we killed again?). You could lessen gold drops if inflation is an issue. You can lessen RNG drops if needed – so long as you’ve got this safety net that allows progression.

I personally don’t like the reward track system (in sPvP it’s alright since there are no good alternatives). Compared to a token system where you can choose what to purchase it really feels grindy imho. The other thing I don’t like about it: skillful play isn’t rewarded that well. Every player, even those who put no effort in battles and watch TV-series on a 2nd screen while auto-afking the boss will get the desired item sooner or later.

It would be like doing the clocktower jumping puzzle and every minute you’re in that instance, you start a few meters closer to the reward chest. Playing long enough would have you start directly in front of the goal. Yes, you can see progress, but it’s not really your progress but an artificial progress.

Skillfull play isn’t rewarded by RNG, so why is a token system worse than what we have now?

Becka Williams.4978:

Skillfull play isn’t rewarded by RNG, so why is a token system worse than what we have now?

I talked about how a reward track is worse than what we have now because even a failure would bring you one step closer to your goal.

Imho skillful play should greatly increase the chances at RNG for players who are willing to learn. Even a jump from 0.01% to 0.04% would be a decent reward imho. Do not forget that a precursor is just one of the exotic weapons – which would drop at higher rates.

300% mf is a jump from .01 to .04. I thought the whole point of this thread was to discuss how to make it so that even when you fail, you get a little further on your goal. I don’t think we need to skill gate the changes. Again, it’s about making the game better for everyone, not just changing the select few from those that are lucky to those that are skillful.