Guild Wars 2

TChalla.7146:

I didn’t say I’ve never purchased from the store. You can assume that if you like, but you’d be wrong.

I can show you a picture of my Salvage-O-Matic if you really like.

Cool. Just wait for Anet to release a new Salvage-O-Matic that has is exactly the same as the copper one, but has the added bonus of giving free extra goodies.

I love threads like this. It brings back memories of my 15 years working in retail, and reminds me why I’d never work in it again.

Aedelric.1287:

Where is my gem refund Arena Net?

I bought the pick with the understanding that it was the best and any others would purely be cosmetic. If you are going to be releasing a better pick every few months I would rather just have my gems back.

Perhaps read the t@c you signed on installing the game? everything is subject to change.

Shakkara.2641:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The Infinite Molten Pick still works. You don’t need to buy the new pick, you WANT to. Big difference.

Anet FORCES people because they release a new, more powerful version, making the old one useless.

No. If you have an iPhone and then the exact same one is released except it can now monitor your vitals (heart rate and such), would the old one be obsolete? How about a sports car that is re-released but with a fancy racing stripe?

The point of the two examples was to illustrate that just because something has something added, it doesn’t mean the older one is obsolete. The value of what was added to the person is what matters. To a lot of people the sprockets are useless. I have like 4 stacks sitting in my bank from the marionette event.

Someone made a comment about Apple fanboys having to constantly buy the newest products. I’m sure I can make some similarities with the mining picks and how some people feel they must have them.

Shakkara.2641:

Anet FORCES people because they release a new, more powerful version, making the old one useless.

Misusing the word “useless” in not helping our case.

The molten pick still has the utility I bought it for. Nothing has changed there.

The question is how well ArenaNet wants to get on with early adopters. If the new pick had cost more, I wouldn’t be terribly put out. But with my current pick carrying the same price for less benefit means that they might as well never put the molten pick up for sale ever again. They also tell me “Igonore our high pressure sales techniques – we’ll cave and give you a better deal for spending $20 in a year than spending $20 right now”

You should never incentivize not buying. And that’s what the Sprocket-Pick does. It makes people suspicious of everything and should they wait rather than spend?

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

I didn’t say I’ve never purchased from the store. You can assume that if you like, but you’d be wrong.

I can show you a picture of my Salvage-O-Matic if you really like.

Cool. Just wait for Anet to release a new Salvage-O-Matic that has is exactly the same as the copper one, but has the added bonus of giving free extra goodies.

If and when that time comes, I might buy that one as well. I bought it for the convenience. Nothing more and nothing less. And I fully expect things to progress in the game. It’s part of every single game out there. So what?

zenleto.6179:

I love threads like this. It brings back memories of my 15 years working in retail, and reminds me why I’d never work in it again.

Yeah I worked there 15 years ago. Was very nice experience.

Customers that wanted it, would ALWAYS get a refund, no questions asked. Great policy, no hassle and seeing happy customers.

Let’s hope Anet is equally amicable.

TChalla.7146:

If and when that time comes, I might buy that one as well. I bought it for the convenience. Nothing more and nothing less. And I fully expect things to progress in the game. It’s part of every single game out there. So what?

It’s NOT part of every single game out there, and in fact I refuse to play games that have such bad practices.

Guild Wars 1 had no vertical progression, GW2 was advertising with that as well.

Now we have vertical progression in the dratted gem shop. WTF?

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

Odd… I have never once felt forced to buy anything from the store. I do it because I want whatever item they have sold. If you feel forced, that is your issue.

If you dont purchase from the store, then you have no right to speak on this issue at all.

Then that means I have full rights to tell people that there’s no “forcing” in any aspect of the Gem Store.

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

If and when that time comes, I might buy that one as well. I bought it for the convenience. Nothing more and nothing less. And I fully expect things to progress in the game. It’s part of every single game out there. So what?

It’s NOT part of every single game out there, and in fact I refuse to play games that have such bad practices.

Guild Wars 1 had no vertical progression, GW2 was advertising with that as well.

Now we have vertical progression in the dratted gem shop. WTF?

I’m not going to explain why it IS in every game out there. I’ll let you figure it out on your own if you like.

You feel disgruntled. I think it’s misplaced. Whatever.

The Molten Pick should have cost 1600 gems due to its unlimited use alone. Added the value of the spiffy animation and the account bound which would be roughly 400 gems, the pick has a total value of 2000 gems.

Why in the world would you trade that value for a 800 gems refund? Beats me.

Even if you don’t value the pick as much as I do, I’m sure it’s worth more than 800 gems — think about it.

TChalla.7146:

I’m not going to explain why it IS in every game out there. I’ll let you figure it out on your own if you like.

You feel disgruntled. I think it’s misplaced. Whatever.

Every game?

Cool.

Is it in Dwarf Fortress? No? Good, your point is proven a lie, concession accepted.

Could someone post the description of the molten pick that stated that it was the best, would always be the best, and no infinite pick would ever come after it that had better features? I can’t find that anywhere. :-\

Shakkara.2641:

zenleto.6179:

I love threads like this. It brings back memories of my 15 years working in retail, and reminds me why I’d never work in it again.

Yeah I worked there 15 years ago. Was very nice experience.

Customers that wanted it, would ALWAYS get a refund, no questions asked. Great policy, no hassle and seeing happy customers.

Let’s hope Anet is equally amicable.

I’ll say it was a fun experience.

We never refunded goods because of alleged next generation obsolescence. Unless they kicked and screamed and wrote letters to the board and we just had to get them out of our faces. One of those people every two years maybe.

Akari Storm.6809:

Ayrilana.1396:

Nobody is entitled to refunds. In the real world products change and have new features added or prices reduced. It would be chaos if those that bought older versions were entitled to discounts or trades. If you bought an iPad for $500 and then months later it was bundled with a free travel keyboard and a price of $399, you would not be entitled to a refund or swap.

Why on earth would you bring up the real world and try to make this seem like that. Real world is the real world. Game world is the game world.

With that thinking they could start selling upgraded versions of skills in the gem store. I bet your view would change then. They never said current skills were best in slot either.

Because online or not this is a real world. You bought a product, product works as described, end of. So a new product comes out, doesn’t invalidate the original purchase or entitle anyone to a refund on it.

Tolmos.8395:

Could someone post the description of the molten pick that stated that it was the best, would always be the best, and no infinite pick would ever come after it that had better features? I can’t find that anywhere. :-\

Amen.

The refunds are available because people bought multiple picks back when they did say “Soulbound on use”. Now they say “Account bound” and you can return duplicates. Not every single one – just your duplicates.

Tolmos.8395:

Could someone post the description of the molten pick that stated that it was the best, would always be the best, and no infinite pick would ever come after it that had better features? I can’t find that anywhere. :-\

The massive pricetag of 12 euros implied it. I certainly didn’t expect them to come out with a better tool less than a year later.

You cannot honestly expect players to pay 36 euros per year, or 3 euros per month, for what is basically a subscription fee for the best-in-slot harvesting tools?

Just avoid the gem shop in the future. You learned your lesson, yes?

Fungalfoot.7213:

Just avoid the gem shop in the future. You learned your lesson, yes?

Good point!

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

I’m not going to explain why it IS in every game out there. I’ll let you figure it out on your own if you like.

You feel disgruntled. I think it’s misplaced. Whatever.

Every game?

Cool.

Is it in Dwarf Fortress? No? Good, your point is proven a lie, concession accepted.

There is no progress in Dwarf Fortress? Must be a GREAT game. shrug

I’ll correct my own post for you, since you couldn’t understand what I meant.

If and when that time comes, I might buy that one as well. I bought it for the convenience. Nothing more and nothing less. And I fully expect things to progress in the game. It’s part of every single MMORPG out there. So what?

Fungalfoot.7213:

Just avoid the gem shop in the future. You learned your lesson, yes?

Its certainly the lesson they’re trying to teach.

I said nothing about “vertical progression.” I said progression. Period. Could be vertical and could be horizontal. Doesn’t matter. I happen to find the new pick axe horizontal progression, since it in no way affects the power of my character.

TChalla.7146:

I said nothing about “vertical progression.” I said progression. Period. Could be vertical and could be horizontal. Doesn’t matter. I happen to find the new pick axe horizontal progression, since it in no way affects the power of my character.

It is statistically better than the old one, thus it is vertical progression and power creep.

Also called Mudflation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

Something I hoped wouldn’t be present in GW2. But then came ascended. And now there’s mudflation in the gemstore as well.

mesme.5028:

I find this so funny, p2w, now pay again:D.

No sympathy for gem buyers, $ to in game gold ruins games, l2p not p2w i say, you pay the piper.

So you think ANET servers are working on perpetual engine and salary for devs\management is optional ? Having no subscription means they need to get profit other ways. Buying gems you first of all create profit for ANET allowing to develop and maintain the game. If you don’t support ANET then somebody is doing this for you. Don’t hate them.

Should gem\gold conversion exists ? Not sure. Maybe some convenience items like infinite picks should be real money only (the price should be much lesser though). But this will cause hate from ppl who convert gold to gems.

I personally bought gems for server transfers and mining picks even I had gold for this. I liked the game and wanted to support ANET. This was before ascended patch though, not even logging anymore. Tracking forum to see if they will fix introduced grind after CDI discussions. I may try again if this’ll happen.

Mystic.5934:

An easy precedent:
when infinite tools were made account-bound, they upgraded old ones for free. People complained that they bought 12 for all their alts and they wouldn’t of if they knew had known they were going to be able to get account-bound instead. I see no difference here.

I have a few sets of the perma-tools, and while I don’t like the new one with the sprocket bonus, I don’t really regret buying the ones I have already. Going account bound was a nice bonus, because I can move them among 8 characters, but account bound is something they should have done in the first place.

Korossive.7085:

From this company choice we learn that the customer is the idiot.

- Two picks.
- Both 1000 gems.
- Early one gives ore.
- Later one gives same ore + bonus.

Ergo: Early customer is the idiot.
Company doesn’t refund? Don’t ever be a customer. This isn’t hard. Why the threads?

What about GOTY editions for various games? Early customer must be the idiot since they could have waited and gotten the expansions and other added features.

If it concerned the recent 3 pack sale, I’d say the OP would have a strong case to get a refund. You could argue it borders willful consumer misinformation. Let’s face it, planning of these things takes months; the introduction of better, more efficient tools in the immediate future will have been known at the time the 3-pack was sold. But hey, it was their last chance at getting any money from these items, knowing they would become obsolete to the very people that care for them in the first place!

Shakkara.2641:

TChalla.7146:

I said nothing about “vertical progression.” I said progression. Period. Could be vertical and could be horizontal. Doesn’t matter. I happen to find the new pick axe horizontal progression, since it in no way affects the power of my character.

It is statistically better than the old one, thus it is vertical progression and power creep.

Also called Mudflation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

Something I hoped wouldn’t be present in GW2. But then came ascended. And now there’s mudflation in the gemstore as well.

As I said, I don’t find it vertical progression at all, since I have no need for the ability to mine sprockets. It doesn’t affect my characters or me at all. If someone else can mine the sprockets, good for them. I’ll be buying them if and when I need them.

If and when I buy the pick, it’ll be for the unlimited uses. I don’t much enjoy being out hunting and gathering, only to realize my tools broke. And just for the record, the only reason I don’t already have unlimited use tools is that I didn’t start playing until after they were taken off the market the last time.

I won’t get into the “mudflation” discussion. You can have that in another topic.

So just because Watchwork pick gives a bonus junk sprocket it is better? Please tell me how richer it will make you and how stronger you become with it. OH GOD THIS GUY CAN GET 1 EXTRA SPROCKET – WE’RE DOOMED, HE IS OP! Anet never ever stated that Molten pick would be the only one of the kind.

I love how they closed the original thread.
And yet, people keep paying them real money, and arena net continues producing no real new content, maps or expansions.

GW2 seems just a huge cash cow at this point for NCSoft so they can produce better games like Wildstar.

Nick.6972:

I love how they closed the original thread.
And yet, people keep paying them real money, and arena net continues producing no real new content, maps or expansions.

GW2 seems just a huge cash cow at this point for NCSoft so they can produce better games like Wildstar.

You’re paying no subscription and get update twice a month – maybe not a huge one but its FREE

You’ve ever heard : quality over quantity?

Nick.6972:

You’ve ever heard : quality over quantity?

Quality costs Quantity is free and sometimes good.

Talonblaze.3175:

Your refund will not be accepted. This I can almost guarantee. The ones that win aren’t the ones who buy first, but the ones who buy later it seems.

Anet should be very careful how they handle this situation.

The blow back of the precedent they are setting is making people very nervous about spending real life money in the gem shop these days.

I posted this in a different topic But I figured I’d post it here as well.

This new tool grants people having it an unfair advantage because there currently is no other way to get an item similar to it. I am also unaware of the lore behind ore veins that have sprockets in them?

My Idea:
Why not let gathering tools have a slot. Then allow crafting professions to make upgrades for them for nodes that have gone away. This would cover all the bases if recipes were released for everything we have had in the past and it would help with current TP inflation on those items. You could even make general ones such as 20% chance to get more ore.

I believe that would even the playing field.

g e o.2589:

So just because Watchwork pick gives a bonus junk sprocket it is better? Please tell me how richer it will make you and how stronger you become with it. OH GOD THIS GUY CAN GET 1 EXTRA SPROCKET – WE’RE DOOMED, HE IS OP! Anet never ever stated that Molten pick would be the only one of the kind.

1000 gems = 75g
let’s estimate 1s/ore and 30c/sprocket
old pick: paid off in 7500 ore / 3 = 2500 nodes. at 30 seconds/node, that’s 20.8 hours
new pick: paid off in 5769 ore / 3 = 1923 nodes. at 30 seconds/node, that’s 16 hours
short answer is: 30% richer
sorry, I’m a math person. when people ask me for numbers I give them.

Excursion.9752:

I posted this in a different topic But I figured I’d post it here as well.

This new tool grants people having it an unfair advantage because there currently is no other way to get an item similar to it. I am also unaware of the lore behind ore veins that have sprockets in them?

My Idea:
Why not let gathering tools have a slot. Then allow crafting professions to make upgrades for them for nodes that have gone away. This would cover all the bases if recipes were released for everything we have had in the past and it would help with current TP inflation on those items. You could even make general ones such as 20% chance to get more ore.

I believe that would even the playing field.

I’m all for removing the bonuses entirely. trouble with removing is: “this pick was advertised to give sprockets, now it doesn’t; refund!” so I don’t see them doing that.
adding bonuses to the other infinite picks is an acceptable alternative, though far from the best idea (removing bonuses).
just ahead of that idea is your idea; with the sockets to add boosts to any tool (when added to temporary tools, you get it back when the tool breaks). It meshes well with all other items.

Mystic.5934:

I’m all for removing the bonuses entirely. trouble with removing is: “this pick was advertised to give sprockets, now it doesn’t; refund!” so I don’t see them doing that.
adding bonuses to the other infinite picks is an acceptable alternative, though far from the best idea (removing bonuses).
just ahead of that idea is your idea; with the sockets to add boosts to any tool (when added to temporary tools, you get it back when the tool breaks). It meshes well with all other items.

Thing is, it was never advertised. The gem store hover over just shows the basic ‘used to mine all metal types’. Makes no mention of the sprockets bonus in game.

Talonblaze.3175:

Your refund will not be accepted. This I can almost guarantee. The ones that win aren’t the ones who buy first, but the ones who buy later it seems.

*The one who both buys first and later is the model-dream-player here.

Talonblaze.3175:

Thing is, it was never advertised. The gem store hover over just shows the basic ‘used to mine all metal types’. Makes no mention of the sprockets bonus in game.

It also doesn’t mention that it replaces your bonus ore with a sprocket, making it strictly inferior.

Vena.8436:

Talonblaze.3175:

Thing is, it was never advertised. The gem store hover over just shows the basic ‘used to mine all metal types’. Makes no mention of the sprockets bonus in game.

It also doesn’t mention that it replaces your bonus ore with a sprocket, making it strictly inferior.

Not sure if that is fully confirmed, but it depends on its general use. Mining mithril or copper for instance, would bring in more profit via sprockets I think. But if that fact is indeed true, nodes like Gold, Iron and Ori are best left to other picks indeed.

So sad to see people defending ANet when what they basically did was give the middle finger to early adopters and say “You paid for it. Here’s the same thing but better. You want it again? Sucks to be you for buying it early, fork over the sheckels again.”

If it wasn’t sprockets but something more valuable, the entire forum would be in uproar. Failing to realize that it doesn’t matter what it gives extra, it’s the fact that it’s flat out a better version of what we already bought, arguably at the same price.

It’s kind of disappointing that so many people are assuming the worst of ANet in the OP’s situation.

I understand why people would or wouldn’t assume the worst, but it’s still disappointing.

Talonblaze.3175:

Not sure if that is fully confirmed, but it depends on its general use. Mining mithril or copper for instance, would bring in more profit via sprockets I think. But if that fact is indeed true, nodes like Gold, Iron and Ori are best left to other picks indeed.

Farming mithril and copper… things that are oversaturated will now, in turn, provide even more of an oversaturated material? A single Marionette event provides, in success, 5000+ sprockets in 15 minutes. The pick is, in the mean time, completely worthless in providing you with ore of value and, therein, self-defeating in its purpose of being “convenience”.

Ramiel.4931:

So sad to see people defending ANet when what they basically did was give the middle finger to early adopters and say “You paid for it. Here’s the same thing but better. You want it again? Sucks to be you for buying it early, fork over the sheckels again.”

I paid 800 gems for my pick. All early adopters, in fact, paid 800 gems. Not to mention that early adopters also gained the fastest tool in the game: Consortium Sickle.

This pick is 1000 gems and robs me of a portion of my ore for an item that self-deflates in value because of this pick.

Shockwave.1230:

It’s kind of disappointing that so many people are assuming the worst of ANet in the OP’s situation.

I understand why people would or wouldn’t assume the worst, but it’s still disappointing.

I guess I’m not sure what ‘worst’ you’re referring to. that statement is usually about intentions. I have no idea what their intentions were, though I am curious to see what they do about the resulting issue. I’m of the opinion they aren’t fully capable of removing this new tool, so I’m trying to come up with ways to work through its introduction so the least people are offended. If the MAMP had a 20% chance of a bonus azurite crystal when it first came out, I’m pretty sure there wouldn’t of been an uproar. The problem is that there were similar items already out and people feel shafted. Those people need to be taken care of if Anet expects to get their continued support.

Vena.8436:

Farming mithril and copper… things that are oversaturated will now, in turn, provide even more of an oversaturated material? A single Marionette event provides, in success, 5000+ sprockets in 15 minutes. The pick is, in the mean time, completely worthless in providing you with ore of value and, therein, self-defeating in its purpose of being “convenience”.

I paid 800 gems for my pick. All early adopters, in fact, paid 800 gems. Not to mention that early adopters also gained the fastest tool in the game: Consortium Sickle.

This pick is 1000 gems and robs me of a portion of my ore for an item that self-deflates in value because of this pick.

For the event as is now, yes. But despite the Scarlet events and everything prior the sprockets still have a decent sell value even still. Coupled with the fact that the sprockets are used in a few recipes that take up a fair chunk. All new Zealot gear requires at least 500 per piece. Also unlike mithril or copper, it can’t be salvaged. So the only source after the event is over will be the time gated nodes from the meta or from this pick.

Also, early adopters of the Molten pick paid 800, the other picks cost 1000 after that iirc, like the bone pick. This also doesn’t mean that the other harvesting tools won’t follow the same pattern either.

Vena.8436:

This pick is 1000 gems and robs me of a portion of my ore for an item that self-deflates in value because of this pick.

this pick does not rob you of anything. if you mine an iron ore with it, you get 3 iron ore and 0.6 sprockets (I assume it’s 20% per chance and not per node?) the sprocket has clearly been identified as in addition to the ore you normally get.

BTW: an acceptable alternative to a refund would be to add these new picks to the vendor that upgraded the tools from soulbound to account bound. Easy exchange program. So easy, in fact, that I’ll check there when I get home because they might of done that already and just forgot to tell people about it. Seems like an easy solution they might of thought of.

Mystic.5934:

Vena.8436:

This pick is 1000 gems and robs me of a portion of my ore for an item that self-deflates in value because of this pick.

this pick does not rob you of anything. if you mine an iron ore with it, you get 3 iron ore and 0.6 sprockets (I assume it’s 20% per chance and not per node?) the sprocket has clearly been identified as in addition to the ore you normally get.

So far all player testing I’ve seen has stated no excess strikes or multiple ore from single strikes when using this pick. It seems it may be replacing those with the sprocket chance.

Also, the 20% is not a definitive number and only came as the result of some incomplete player testing. For all we know it could actually be 10% or even 35%…we just do not know for sure yet, though sprocket chance is based per strike and not per node.

Each strike seems to have a chance to produce a single ore, a chance at a gem and a chance at a sprocket. I say a “single” ore as player testing that I’ve seen so far states no additional amounts of ore or additional strike chances while using this pick.

Thing is, there’s not a whole lot of definite information and Anet is not giving us any. We need communication and it seems they do not like communicating facts or intentions to us.

Mystic.5934:

Vena.8436:

This pick is 1000 gems and robs me of a portion of my ore for an item that self-deflates in value because of this pick.

this pick does not rob you of anything. if you mine an iron ore with it, you get 3 iron ore and 0.6 sprockets (I assume it’s 20% per chance and not per node?) the sprocket has clearly been identified as in addition to the ore you normally get.

Except you do lose ore because every ore hit also ha(d)s a chance of yielding an additional ore. So you could hit a regular iron ore three times and end up with 5 iron ore. Now, you will hit it thrice and you will ALWAYS get 3 iron ore and 2 sprockets.

For anything short of copper and mithril, each such event loses you 1s+.