Remove Ascended from WvWvW
And again, the point remains: if gear makes so little difference, why not just put everyone’s stats at the same level, making it more fun for everyone?
Because you don’t get paid unless you back Anet’s decisions.
Man, I can’t wait for that check. /sarcasm
You do realize how insulting you are by insinuating that having opinions different from yours means that people are shills for the game?
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
And again, the point remains: if gear makes so little difference, why not just put everyone’s stats at the same level, making it more fun for everyone?
Because you don’t get paid unless you back Anet’s decisions.
Man, I can’t wait for that check. /sarcasm
You do realize how insulting you are by insinuating that having opinions different from yours means that people are shills for the game?
People start using insults when they have nothing to refute a good valid point. So all they can do is try to mitigate the damage the good valid argument made.
And again, the point remains: if gear makes so little difference, why not just put everyone’s stats at the same level, making it more fun for everyone?
Because you don’t get paid unless you back Anet’s decisions.
Man, I can’t wait for that check. /sarcasm
You do realize how insulting you are by insinuating that having opinions different from yours means that people are shills for the game?
You do realise how insulting you are to my intelligence when you try to convince me that a 10% (with trinkets) or 20% stat increase ( with weapons + trinkets) doesn’t mean anything right ?
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Everyone just threw numbers out there and said “See? Massive advantage for grinders!” No evidence, no nothing, just theory.
Cue confirmation bias, straw mans, and outright ignorance of the combat system, and here we are.
Yet you’re the one arguing a clear statistical advantage isn’t really an advantage. Or in other terms, that 1=0.
Funny, eh?
No, I’m arguing that the advantage isn’t large enough to make a significant difference on average, due to the nature of the combat system.
You’d do well to stop misrepresenting my stance on the matter.
It’s more like saying .99950 = 1
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
And again, the point remains: if gear makes so little difference, why not just put everyone’s stats at the same level, making it more fun for everyone?
Because you don’t get paid unless you back Anet’s decisions.
Man, I can’t wait for that check. /sarcasm
You do realize how insulting you are by insinuating that having opinions different from yours means that people are shills for the game?
You do realise how insulting you are to my intelligence when you try to convince me that a 10% (with trinkets) or 20% stat increase ( with weapons + trinkets) doesn’t mean anything right ?
Show me some evidence supporting your claim, since you’re the one making the claim.
From my experience in the game, with my non-full exotic gear, I don’t feel at a disadvantage.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
I’m pretty sure people leaving and taking their $$$ with them is the only evidence ArenaNet really cares about.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
I’m pretty sure people leaving and taking their $$$ with them is the only evidence ArenaNet really cares about.
I’m not convinced that’s happening either. Way to deflect the argument.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
“Evidence”
“From my experience”
“I don’t feel at a disadvantage”
vs
Objectively higher numerical values on the stats of items and weapon damage values
“Numbers on paper isn’t evidence”
¯\(°_o)/¯
Apologism. Apologism never changes.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
Lol how old are you? Numbers on paper is exactly what evidence is, cold hard mathematical facts. Your experience on the matter means nothing.
Except your numbers are theory not practice.
That’s not evidence, that’s a hypothesis. My case study (general gameplay) does not support your hypothesis.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
I’m pretty sure people leaving and taking their $$$ with them is the only evidence ArenaNet really cares about.
I’m not convinced that’s happening either. Way to deflect the argument.
Of course not. You’re not convinced of anything you don’t want to be. Thankfully, whether or not you’re convinced means absolutely nothing in this situation.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
Lol how old are you? Numbers on paper is exactly what evidence is, cold hard mathematical facts. Your experience on the matter means nothing.
Except your numbers are theory not practice.
That’s not evidence, that’s a hypothesis. My case study (general gameplay) does not support your hypothesis.
Translation: My anecdote trumps your hard facts.
So here’s my “case study” for you. I’ve played PvP in many MMOs in many formats. Gear disparities of even just 10% make a real impact in all cases. My case study does not support your hypothesis.
“Evidence”
“From my experience”
“I don’t feel at a disadvantage”
vs
Objectively higher numerical values on the stats of items and weapon damage values
“Numbers on paper isn’t evidence”
¯\(°_o)/¯
Apologism. Apologism never changes.
numbers on paper work in theory, when all other variables can be controlled for.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
edit; Theorycrafting in this game shines in PvE, because encounters are always the same and mobs are predictable.
“Evidence”
“From my experience”
“I don’t feel at a disadvantage”
vs
Objectively higher numerical values on the stats of items and weapon damage values
“Numbers on paper isn’t evidence”
¯\(°_o)/¯
Apologism. Apologism never changes.
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
Lol how old are you? Numbers on paper is exactly what evidence is, cold hard mathematical facts. Your experience on the matter means nothing.
Except your numbers are theory not practice.
That’s not evidence, that’s a hypothesis. My case study (general gameplay) does not support your hypothesis.
What are you talking about? Plenty of people have done the math, it’s not a theory.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
Lol how old are you? Numbers on paper is exactly what evidence is, cold hard mathematical facts. Your experience on the matter means nothing.
Except your numbers are theory not practice.
That’s not evidence, that’s a hypothesis. My case study (general gameplay) does not support your hypothesis.
Translation: You don’t have any hard facts.
Fixed that for you.
So here’s my “case study” for you. I’ve played PvP in many MMOs in many formats. Gear disparities of even just 10% make a real impact in all cases. My case study does not support your hypothesis.
Every other MMO has a hard trinity and healers also, so the comparison there is moot.
You did illustrate a tendency to have bias against the skill > gear design of GW2 because of your experience with other MMOs though.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
And while you’re stunlocked, the higher defensive stats from better gear means you’ll have more hitpoints left after the stun is over, or at the very least you’ll survive the stunlock longer meaning those players focusing on you are focused on you longer giving your team an advantage somewhere else. You can split hairs however you want; at the end of the day, better stats is better stats, and better stats gives a real advantage.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
Lol how old are you? Numbers on paper is exactly what evidence is, cold hard mathematical facts. Your experience on the matter means nothing.
Except your numbers are theory not practice.
That’s not evidence, that’s a hypothesis. My case study (general gameplay) does not support your hypothesis.
What are you talking about? Plenty of people have done the math, it’s not a theory.
The numbers on gear don’t mean anything if you don’t hit your target. The math doesn’t
give us a picture of what actually happens, only of would could possibly happen under very specific circumstances.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
And while you’re stunlocked, the higher defensive stats from better gear means you’ll have more hitpoints left after the stun is over, or at the very least you’ll survive the stunlock longer meaning those players focusing on you are focused on you longer giving your team an advantage somewhere else. You can split hairs however you want; at the end of the day, better stats is better stats, and better stats gives a real advantage.
Yeah, a real, albeit small, advantage.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
Translation: You don’t have any hard facts.
Fixed that for you.
And there, in a nutshell, is your entire argument. You don’t want to believe the facts, so you just deny them and claim your anecdotes matter more. People have been posting hard facts for pages. You have nothing to refute them, besides personal anecdotes.
You’re like a little kid putting his fingers in his ears going “LALALALALA I can’t hear you” any time someone posts anything you don’t like.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
And while you’re stunlocked, the higher defensive stats from better gear means you’ll have more hitpoints left after the stun is over, or at the very least you’ll survive the stunlock longer meaning those players focusing on you are focused on you longer giving your team an advantage somewhere else. You can split hairs however you want; at the end of the day, better stats is better stats, and better stats gives a real advantage.
Yeah, a real, albeit small, advantage.
Still splitting hairs again. That small advantage can turn into a huge advantage if one team all has ascended stats and the other does not.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
“The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”
i’m not quite sure that i’m guilty of that
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
Are there any stats that determine how much damage you will take while stunlocked? Of course not.
I’m interested in your case study. No doubt, since the myriad of other mechanics at play trump higher numerical values, you’d be kind enough to present your objective evidence for this claim, right? What calculation did you use to measure the variable “impact of potential”? What was the standard deviation? It was low in comparison to what? What would you have expected it to be otherwise?
So we go back to “the stats don’t make a big enough difference”. Ring around the rosy.
Apologism. Apologism never changes.
I mean, it’s cool that there are other factors at play than stats, which I don’t think I’m trying to refute, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are stats and stuffs with higher stats than them and that, at the end of the day, this means an advantage for the guy that has them.
Etc. etc. I swear I’ve read all this before. OH WAIT
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
Err… No. That there are other unbalancing factors at play in WvW that may or may not have a bigger impact is irrelevant because we are just talking about gear and what the gear itself does.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
“The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”
i’m not quite sure that i’m guilty of that
You are.
“There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage”
No one has argued, at any point, that the difference between victory and defeat in WvW came down solely to a gear stat advantage. The argument has always been that it’s an extra advantage that hurts the game, and should be removed.
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
And while you’re stunlocked, the higher defensive stats from better gear means you’ll have more hitpoints left after the stun is over, or at the very least you’ll survive the stunlock longer meaning those players focusing on you are focused on you longer giving your team an advantage somewhere else. You can split hairs however you want; at the end of the day, better stats is better stats, and better stats gives a real advantage.
Yeah, a real, albeit small, advantage.
Still splitting hairs again. That small advantage can turn into a huge advantage if one team all has ascended stats and the other does not.
Which is again what people have been talking about, makes a difference in very specific scenarios, and that scenario you are talking about will only happen if all players on both sides have equal skill, have equal number of people, have equal number of each class, have the same builds and the same exact number of builds, that one side has fully ascended, and one side has fully non ascended, have the same exact lag, all started with full health and none of their skills on cool down, and nobody makes any mistakes, and I am sure there are so many other things that have to line up to make that ascended gear to be a huge advantage. In other words, your scenario is very unlikely. That is why theory crafting in for WvWvW is not valid, it relies on a specific situation to happen, and that situation is very unlikely to happen.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
“The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”
i’m not quite sure that i’m guilty of that
You are.
“There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage”
No one has argued, at any point, that the difference between victory and defeat in WvW came down solely to a gear stat advantage.
Accept for people have in this very thread, many times.
And what you are asking for is a complete change to WvWvW (PvEvP) you want it to be like sPvP, which defeats the purpose of WvWvW.
I have to agree with the OP on this one. Personally I love WvWvW but i am not a PvP person and i do not want to grind out a full set of scended weapons or armor (read: i have NO ascended gear). I want to help my world win but if i’m going up against players who are statistically outgunning me then maybe i will just not participate.
That is exactly why I won’t participate. I came from WoW, Rift, DCUO, and a lot of other MMOs in the past. I’m long since sick and tired of the gear treadmill. My favorite MMO of all time is (was) City of Heroes for a reason (and I didn’t bother with the Incarnate Trials at the end, never needed to).
I’ve zero interest in grinding out stat based gear in Guild Wars 2. No thanks. So, I’ll just skip WvWvW. If I want to continue to play the gear-PvP method, I already have characters in WoW and DCUO that are fairly well decked out. Why the hell would I want to start over here?
There simply is not enough of an inspiration to grind BiS gear out in this game, when I have characters in other games already grinded and equipped.
The attraction to GW2 was the non-reliance on the BiS treadmill. So, to heck with WvWvW, then.
(edited by Kilmeran.6847)
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
There was no strawman argument.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
“The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”
i’m not quite sure that i’m guilty of that
You are.
“There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage”
No one has argued, at any point, that the difference between victory and defeat in WvW came down solely to a gear stat advantage. The argument has always been that it’s an extra advantage that hurts the game, and should be removed.
my point was, theory on paper works because you can control the variables, while theory in practice is difficult because there are many uncontrollable variables.
You can keep focusing on your men of straw and ignore the point of my argument if you prefer.
Err… No. That there are other unbalancing factors at play in WvW that may or may not have a bigger impact is irrelevant because we are just talking about gear and what the gear itself does.
Talking about the impact of gear in relation to all the other factors that play out is far from being irrelevant. Not taking into consideration all the other elements is intellectually dishonest.
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
And while you’re stunlocked, the higher defensive stats from better gear means you’ll have more hitpoints left after the stun is over, or at the very least you’ll survive the stunlock longer meaning those players focusing on you are focused on you longer giving your team an advantage somewhere else. You can split hairs however you want; at the end of the day, better stats is better stats, and better stats gives a real advantage.
Yeah, a real, albeit small, advantage.
Still splitting hairs again. That small advantage can turn into a huge advantage if one team all has ascended stats and the other does not.
Which is again what people have been talking about, makes a difference in very specific scenarios, and that scenario you are talking about will only happen if all players on both sides have equal skill, have equal number of people, have equal number of each class, have the same builds and the same exact number of builds, that one side has fully ascended, and one side has fully non ascended, have the same exact lag, all started with full health and none of their skills on cool down, and nobody makes any mistakes, and I am sure there are so many other things that have to line up to make that ascended gear to be a huge advantage. In other words, your scenario is very unlikely. That is why theory crafting in for WvWvW is not valid, it relies on a specific situation to happen, and that situation is very unlikely to happen.
And besides that there is a whole spectrum of how much difference ascended gear can make. Still doesn’t justify giving certain players an arbitrary advantage based on how much time they spent doing some arbitrary activity in the game.
Talking about the impact of gear in relation to all the other factors that play out is far from being irrelevant. Not taking into consideration all the other elements is intellectually dishonest.
Yes, it is. The existence of other factors in addition to gear that determine the outcome of battles in WvW does not refute any of the positions about Ascended gear, which is what the thread is about. It is a red herring.
my point was, theory on paper works because you can control the variables, while theory in practice is difficult because there are many uncontrollable variables.
You can keep focusing on your men of straw and ignore the point of my argument if you prefer.
But that whole argument is a straw man. No one’s been arguing whether or not ascended gear = winning. The argument from the start has always been that it gives an unfair advantage. All those other variables don’t change that one bit. It’s an unfair advantage because it’s an advantage obtained before the competitive match starts, from doing activities that are completely irrelevant to the competitive match. It’s like me getting a few extra pieces in a chess tournament because I downed at least 10 hot dogs in a hot-dog eating contest held by the same people running the chess tournament. No one would play in that chess tournament.
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
And while you’re stunlocked, the higher defensive stats from better gear means you’ll have more hitpoints left after the stun is over, or at the very least you’ll survive the stunlock longer meaning those players focusing on you are focused on you longer giving your team an advantage somewhere else. You can split hairs however you want; at the end of the day, better stats is better stats, and better stats gives a real advantage.
Yeah, a real, albeit small, advantage.
Still splitting hairs again. That small advantage can turn into a huge advantage if one team all has ascended stats and the other does not.
Which is again what people have been talking about, makes a difference in very specific scenarios, and that scenario you are talking about will only happen if all players on both sides have equal skill, have equal number of people, have equal number of each class, have the same builds and the same exact number of builds, that one side has fully ascended, and one side has fully non ascended, have the same exact lag, all started with full health and none of their skills on cool down, and nobody makes any mistakes, and I am sure there are so many other things that have to line up to make that ascended gear to be a huge advantage. In other words, your scenario is very unlikely. That is why theory crafting in for WvWvW is not valid, it relies on a specific situation to happen, and that situation is very unlikely to happen.
And besides that there is a whole spectrum of how much difference ascended gear can make. Still doesn’t justify giving certain players an arbitrary advantage based on how much time they spent doing some arbitrary activity in the game.
If you were talking about PvP you would be right. But we are talking about PvEvP, where time does make a difference.
What you really want is WvWvW to be just like sPvP, but WvWvW was never meant to be like sPvP, it is meant to be PvEvP where a level 80 is going to have a small advantage over a level 35 because the level 80 had more time, and where people are meant to wear their PvE gear.
Instead of taking ascended out just because you do not want to spend a little time to get it, how about making a suggestion in the suggestion thread to make another WvWvW mode that uses the sPvP system? Because that is really what you want. You do not want any kind of PvE to effect what you think should be purely PvP, so you need to ask for a purely PvP WvWvW mode, and not ask for a change in a PvEvP mode.
Talking about the impact of gear in relation to all the other factors that play out is far from being irrelevant. Not taking into consideration all the other elements is intellectually dishonest.
Yes, it is. The existence of other factors in addition to gear that determine the outcome of battles in WvW does not refute any of the positions about Ascended gear, which is what the thread is about. It is a red herring.
but gear stats is probably the least significant factor you can account for in WvW.
Talking about the impact of gear in relation to all the other factors that play out is far from being irrelevant. Not taking into consideration all the other elements is intellectually dishonest.
Yes, it is. The existence of other factors in addition to gear that determine the outcome of battles in WvW does not refute any of the positions about Ascended gear, which is what the thread is about. It is a red herring.
but gear stats is probably the least significant factor you can account for in WvW.
It’s also probably the easiest factor to account for.
Talking about the impact of gear in relation to all the other factors that play out is far from being irrelevant. Not taking into consideration all the other elements is intellectually dishonest.
Yes, it is. The existence of other factors in addition to gear that determine the outcome of battles in WvW does not refute any of the positions about Ascended gear, which is what the thread is about. It is a red herring.
But why pick out ascended gear only? Exotic has more increase over Rare then ascended has over Exotic. A level 80 exotic players has more of an increase then a level 35 in fine gear. So why pick out ascended only? Shouldn’t you be actually asking for another whole mode where you can go play a sPvP version of WvWvW, where PvE has zero affect on it?
my point was, theory on paper works because you can control the variables, while theory in practice is difficult because there are many uncontrollable variables.
You can keep focusing on your men of straw and ignore the point of my argument if you prefer.
But that whole argument is a straw man. No one’s been arguing whether or not ascended gear = winning. The argument from the start has always been that it gives an unfair advantage. All those other variables don’t change that one bit. It’s an unfair advantage because it’s an advantage obtained before the competitive match starts, from doing activities that are completely irrelevant to the competitive match. It’s like me getting a few extra pieces in a chess tournament because I downed at least 10 hot dogs in a hot-dog eating contest held by the same people running the chess tournament. No one would play in that chess tournament.
WvW has always been that way though, even before ascended gear. Is it unfair that some people have exotics and some people don’t? Yeah it is, even though everyone has the same access to gear, but such is WvW.
It’s not a strawman to analyze the effect of the claim, that ascended gear should be removed from WvW. stop saying strawman already, lol.
but gear stats is probably the least significant factor you can account for in WvW.
But even in that case it doesn’t change or refute the position at all. They’d rather it be a non-factor. That would also raise the query as to why keep those extra stats in play at all, since it’s such a small factor. Removing them would have, after all, very little factor of significance.
I also find such a general assertion disingenuous, unless you expect me to believe a man in whites is just as powerful as a man in As gear.
But why pick out ascended gear only? Exotic has more increase over Rare then ascended has over Exotic. A level 80 exotic players has more of an increase then a level 35 in fine gear. So why pick out ascended only? Shouldn’t you be actually asking for another whole mode where you can go play a sPvP version of WvWvW, where PvE has zero affect on it?
That depends on your personal position. To some it might be a matter of gradation. Ie. grinding for exotics to be BiS is annoying, but tolerable. The increase in time and effort to be BiS for the new tier is incrementally larger than before and is not in line with what was assumed before launch thanks to pre-release marketing.
To others it might be something else. Others might say screw all of this unbalanced stuff and really do make it like sPvP. Including everyone at level 80, free exotics, etc.
(edited by TainoFuerte.8136)
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
Lol how old are you? Numbers on paper is exactly what evidence is, cold hard mathematical facts. Your experience on the matter means nothing.
Except your numbers are theory not practice.
That’s not evidence, that’s a hypothesis. My case study (general gameplay) does not support your hypothesis.
What are you talking about? Plenty of people have done the math, it’s not a theory.
The numbers on gear don’t mean anything if you don’t hit your target. The math doesn’t
give us a picture of what actually happens, only of would could possibly happen under very specific circumstances.
That is irrelevant.
Put 2 Warriors of exact same skill and spec vs each other, the one with 20% more damage will win.
Don’t give me what IFs, that’s mathematical proof.
my point was, theory on paper works because you can control the variables, while theory in practice is difficult because there are many uncontrollable variables.
You can keep focusing on your men of straw and ignore the point of my argument if you prefer.
But that whole argument is a straw man. No one’s been arguing whether or not ascended gear = winning. The argument from the start has always been that it gives an unfair advantage. All those other variables don’t change that one bit. It’s an unfair advantage because it’s an advantage obtained before the competitive match starts, from doing activities that are completely irrelevant to the competitive match. It’s like me getting a few extra pieces in a chess tournament because I downed at least 10 hot dogs in a hot-dog eating contest held by the same people running the chess tournament. No one would play in that chess tournament.
WvWvW has always been that way, since before the game even launched, ascended gear didn’t change that all of the sudden.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
“The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”
i’m not quite sure that i’m guilty of that
You are.
“There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage”
No one has argued, at any point, that the difference between victory and defeat in WvW came down solely to a gear stat advantage. The argument has always been that it’s an extra advantage that hurts the game, and should be removed.
I dunno, man, I’ve read all comments thus far and the general consensus for those against Ascended gear in WvW is in line with his comment. The argument being that the gear stat difference is going to imbalance WvW, so much so that it actually hurts the game. I think the cooler heads here are all on the same page that this stat difference is negligible when factored in with all of the other imbalances in WvW.
WvW isn’t PvP. Everyone needs to get their heads out of the mindset that things need to be balanced as if PvPing is the point of WvW, because it isn’t. When PvP happens in WvW it’s generally ZvZ. Largest zerg will win. If a group of 10 people in absolute BiS comes across a group of 20 people in full Exotic/Ascended accessories, it will still be a faceroll on that group of 10. BL populations play a far more major role in WvW than anything else. Why should Anet balance something on the off-chance people happen upon a completely equal 1v1 fight? That would be such a waste of time because that rarely happens if ever and isn’t even the point of WvW. It’s a meta.
If you want equal PvP, do sPvP/tPvP. For all else do WvW or PvE.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
Lol how old are you? Numbers on paper is exactly what evidence is, cold hard mathematical facts. Your experience on the matter means nothing.
Except your numbers are theory not practice.
That’s not evidence, that’s a hypothesis. My case study (general gameplay) does not support your hypothesis.
What are you talking about? Plenty of people have done the math, it’s not a theory.
The numbers on gear don’t mean anything if you don’t hit your target. The math doesn’t
give us a picture of what actually happens, only of would could possibly happen under very specific circumstances.That is irrelevant.
Put 2 Warriors of exact same skill and spec vs each other, the one with 20% more damage will win.
Don’t give me what IFs, that’s mathematical proof.
You are using a what IF right there in your example. Also, that example could have happened even before ascended gear was released