Guild Wars 2

Is expertise really fixed? I don’t see any patch notes for it…

Kulvar.1239:

@OP: Your wonderful facts fall when you consider:
- Condition duration focus make fights longer. A longer fight means that you’ll have to tank more damages from your opponents. Also, the next wave can spawn before you killed the previous one.
- Cleanse cancel Condition duration. So all your extra damage vanish.

These two reasons explain why Viper > Sinister against non-cleansing foes.

I can understand not reading every post when the thread is 10 pages or so, but this thread isn’t that long. Recommended reading material: Sinister Vs. Viper in short term

blakdoxa.7520:

Is expertise really fixed? I don’t see any patch notes for it…

Yep. I tested it out myself.

Hmmm,
Even my primarily power focused Reaper, I can see Viper would be a huge advantage, if for no other reason, while it will increase power slightly, but more for the duration of the CC skills associated with the Reaper’s GS. Even a 50% increase duration on chill or vulnerability is huge. Certainly not an ideal min-maxer build, but a good solo PvE build with half decent damage and survivability, far superior to old condition builds. Ultimately, I’ll have to look at replacing my trinkets too, but I have other fish to fry at the moment.

It’s not so much of a gain that I’m going to rush out and spend a pile of gold to make these things, but I will certainly craft them as I farm enough stuff to make them.

For WvW, I’m not in a huge hurry to replace my dire/undead/staff set. My favorite thing in WvW is tower defense and huge CD and added survivability is perfect for that.

Maybe if you’re running a hybrid/condi build. As a fellow power reaper player, my advice to other power reapers is to stick with power. Even with no duration I already cap out vuln and have a high AoE chill uptime. If you wanted more chill, I’d just suggest Runes of the Ice. You lose the power/ferocity from scholar runes, but gain chill duration and a 7% damage mod against chilled foes, which is much more reliable than the scholar bonus.

I’ve been doing a bit of math, and Marauder might be a worthy investment for players who don’t want to go full glass.

It comes down to sheer bulk. While Marauder is basically a Berserker + Valkyrie mix, Marauder has more points. 3,362 total stats as compared to 3,087 of the previous 3 tiered sets (not including runes). This means that, while you could trade off to more durability by mixing Valkyrie and Berserker, it will be less efficient and less powerful then mixing Berserker and Marauder.

With Scholar Runes and no additional buffs, A full Marauder set has 3,497 effective power while a full Berserker set has 3,819 effective power. A difference of 9%. Most min/maxers will pull their hair out over that number, but for low HP classes that extra 579 Vitality is important. For low HP classes it is a 49.7% increase in effective HP. For mid HP classes, 36.4% increase. For high tier, 30% increase.

It isn’t optimal in a perfect comp, perfect play setting. But, 9% lower damage vs. 49.7% greater effective HP is a tradeoff that I won’t blame anyone for taking.

In max might + max fury situations, I’m getting effective polwers of 5,226 and 5,721, or an 8.6% increase by using Berserker over Marauder.

Also- if you need more convincing just go to gw2skills.net and open 2 tabs, and make the exact same build side by side but one set with vipers and one with sinister. It does all the calculations for you and the damage difference is quite substantial. Ill link my two just so you can see (I’m keeping the ascended sinister trinkets because I dont want to put the effort into ascended vipers, if that exists).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAW7YnMbCN3gtbCmbC0bilfBL+I+EviUZhvwwCKpFA+AA-TByBQBST53yOIAA4CAMPdDDU9Hm9EAegSQDu/goAgJ-e

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAW7YnMbCN3gtbCmbC0bilfBL+IGFviUZhvwwCKpFA+AA-TxxBQBGc/hHoEUaK/W2BB0NAgLAwzU/hZPBARBATA-e

How do you acquire viper gear?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I bet you thought this was a question thread, didn’t you? Hah! I bring answers!

I decided to make an equation to check how much condition duration would be needed for Sinister to surpass Viper. It works something like this:

Sinister Bleed Damage x (1 + Condition Duration) = Viper Bleed Damage x (1.39 + Condition Duration).

You can substitute in any condition you want. I’m going to put in bleed

99 x (1 + Dur) = 88 x (1.39 + Dur)
9/8 x (1 + Dur) = 1.39 + Dur
9/8 + 9/8 Dur = 1.39 + Dur
1/8 Dur = 0.265
Dur = 2.12

Yes, fear my mighty maffs! Tremble before Algebra! Anyway, what that 2.12 means is that your total additional condition duration must be 212% from traits/runes/sigils before Sinister does the same condition damage as Viper. The more might you add, the larger this percentage gets, because the difference in condition damage between the two sets is always a static number.

Tl:dr RUN VIPER YOU FOOL!

I’m going by the principle, if you get silly results, you probably made a mistake Unless viper duration ignores the 100 condi duration cap , this comparison is erratic. The break-even point is then somewhere past 61% mark for 39% viper condi duration, depending on the relative damage difference. For your bleeds example, this is around 78% for 88 vs 99 bleed damage, around 85% for 133 vs144 (full might).

Edit: Thank you for this great thread, I really appreciate the explanation and there is some great stuff here (like the marauder -berserker comparison)! Just pointing out a small error on an otherwise amazing job.

Btw, I heard a 5% difference between Marauder and Berserker for eles from dekeyz, I wonder why these numbers are different (maybe she adds in more power buffs in her dps calculations?) Anyway, the point remains the same: the dps difference is quite small and the increase in dps uptime likely compensates for this for average players.

Have you done calculations for Reaper Viper vs Reaper Sinister?

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Have you done calculations for Reaper Viper vs Reaper Sinister?

Looking purely at the condi damage aspect, I think it’s largely class -independent.The difference will still be 193 condi damage, which equates to about 11 extra damage for bleeds, 30 for burns and 12 for poison. In a scenario with sustained max. might, the breakeven points (condi damage only!) are around 85% for all conditions (using the equations from Blood Red Arachnid accounting for the condi duration cap), while they are closer to 75% for scenarios without might (larger relative difference).

As a first guess for Hybrid Reaper specs, I’m with Arachnid on the power choice, looking at the effective power comparisons which prefer Viper.

Edit2: Switching in a few sinister pieces will slightly increase your condi damage (as long as you are above 85% duration), but you’ll lose out on power while gaining crit chance, which might put the Hybrid Reaper above 100% if you take decimate defenses. In raid scenarios, you’ll be at 100% crit with decimate defenses and fury anyway. Not sure about the hybrid reaper trait choices, but it seems likely to me that this trait is essential to optimize hybrid dps for reaper.

Demandred.7930:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I bet you thought this was a question thread, didn’t you? Hah! I bring answers!

I decided to make an equation to check how much condition duration would be needed for Sinister to surpass Viper. It works something like this:

Sinister Bleed Damage x (1 + Condition Duration) = Viper Bleed Damage x (1.39 + Condition Duration).

You can substitute in any condition you want. I’m going to put in bleed

99 x (1 + Dur) = 88 x (1.39 + Dur)
9/8 x (1 + Dur) = 1.39 + Dur
9/8 + 9/8 Dur = 1.39 + Dur
1/8 Dur = 0.265
Dur = 2.12

Yes, fear my mighty maffs! Tremble before Algebra! Anyway, what that 2.12 means is that your total additional condition duration must be 212% from traits/runes/sigils before Sinister does the same condition damage as Viper. The more might you add, the larger this percentage gets, because the difference in condition damage between the two sets is always a static number.

Tl:dr RUN VIPER YOU FOOL!

I’m going by the principle, if you get silly results, you probably made a mistake Unless viper duration ignores the 100 condi duration cap , this comparison is erratic. The break-even point is then somewhere past 61% mark for 39% viper condi duration, depending on the relative damage difference. For your bleeds example, this is around 78% for 88 vs 99 bleed damage, around 85% for 133 vs144 (full might).

Edit: Thank you for this great thread, I really appreciate the explanation and there is some great stuff here (like the marauder -berserker comparison)! Just pointing out a small error on an otherwise amazing job.

Btw, I heard a 5% difference between Marauder and Berserker for eles from dekeyz, I wonder why these numbers are different (maybe she adds in more power buffs in her dps calculations?) Anyway, the point remains the same: the dps difference is quite small and the increase in dps uptime likely compensates for this for average players.

The very next paragraph you omitted says the following

Normally I would just say “Run Viper you fool!” and be done with it. But, there is an asterisk here. Or there might be. I’m not sure. Anyway, the issue is that condition duration is capped at 100%. Or it might be. This means that, although Sinister can never truly match viper in condition damage, Viper becomes redundant after that 100% threshold is hit. This is… actually quite hard to do. For Viper’s to start becoming redundant, you need to have 61.4% condition duration from traits/runes/sigils. And specifically condition duration, not just stuff like Lingering Curses

So please, before you levy a criticism, make sure I have not already covered the topic…

As far as the difference between marauder and berserker goes, the values that I have are the base values. Assuming no traits, no sigils (scholar runes, though), no outside team buffs, nothing. Walking around on this mythical null character, you will have 9% more damage in berserker gear. The reason why I go with these base values is twofold. #1: These values cannot be taken away from your toon. #2: The particular party composition and team buffs are up in the air and unreliable. Essentially, they are what-if scenarios.

The particular difference that closes the gap between the two is precision. Marauder has a higher crit chance than berserker, so everything crit dependent scales better. The ele has quite a few crit scaling things, including a precision → ferocity conversion. Power and Ferocity bonuses are also worth more, so warrior banners and empower allies have a bigger contribution. On the flip side, things like spotter have less of a contribution.

Really, there’s only 3 classes you would look at with Marauder: Thief, Guardian, Elementalist, with ele being the best candidate. However, this is all moot. In overworld PVE and legacy content, yeah Marauder might be an option. But any durability that marauder adds is irrelevant in the face of two little words: Enrage Timer.

Normally, the rate of failure compared between the two sets would put Marauder on top. But, with Enrage Timers, it is preferable to maximize DPS and hope for a more perfect run, then it is to reduce DPS and go for a safer run. The DPS limit is quite hard, with 9% reduction in damage being equal to 43 seconds off the clock. Though Marauder will lead to a higher melee engagement time, this is a “soft benefit”, in the sense that it can be alleviated on zerker with more skill or a luckier run. If some classes need marauder to do the raids, that isn’t a case for marauder. It is a case to not use those classes.

Hence, why it is I haven’t really put up any of my calculations. I have them saved, though:

Marauder: 2271 Power, 1087 Precision, 700 Ferocity, 579 Vitality
Crit Chance: 55.8
Crit damage: 196.7%
Crit Mod: 1.54
Effective Power: 3.497
EP Max might: 4652
Crit Mod Fury: 1.73
EP Fury: 3936
EP Max Might and Fury: 5226

Berserker: 2464 Power, 899 Precision, 999 Ferocity
Crit Chance: 46.8
Crit Damage: 216.6%
Crit Mod: 1.55
Effective Power: 3,819
EP Max might: 4982
Crit Mod fury: 1.78
EP Fury: 4386
EP Max Might and Fury: 5721

Add and subtract modifiers as you see fit. 9.2% difference base, 9.5% difference with max might and fury.

CKres.4589:

How do you acquire viper gear?

From Auric Basin. First, you need 250 aurillium to buy the recipes for insignias, inscriptions, and exquisite jewelry. Then you need to buy the recipes for particular weapon bits. You can either buy these off of the TP, or get them via random drops from Exalted Chests from the Auric Basin meta event.

Once you have that, you need the specific materials. The insignias, inscriptions, and exquisite jewelry all need black diamonds. Black diamonds so far seem to be random drops from… basically anything. Airship Cargo, Exalted Chests, Crystal Caches, and Pods will contain them. The insignias and inscriptions also need leaf fossils, but those are cheap.

The individual armor and weapons bits all need linseed oil. 5 vials per component, 10 vials per piece of armor or per weapon. Linseed oil should be automatically unlocked as a recipe, but if not it requires 20 flax, 5 milling stones, 1 milling basin.

Currently, due to the release of raids, black diamonds are in very high demand. The Viper set was expensive back when black diamonds were 1g, but now that they’re 5g it is insane.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Have you done calculations for Reaper Viper vs Reaper Sinister?

Viper is better as a rule of thumb. The only time this isn’t true is when you’ve reached 100% condition duration in your desired damaging condition. Once you reach 100% duration, use Sinister.

I believe the difference is this:
Sinister for short fights, since it gives more condition.
Viper for extended fights (primarily bosses) since you can keep the uptime.

For me, its viper armor and weapons, sinister trinkets and accessories

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The very next paragraph you omitted says the following

Normally I would just say “Run Viper you fool!” and be done with it. But, there is an asterisk here. Or there might be. I’m not sure. Anyway, the issue is that condition duration is capped at 100%. Or it might be. This means that, although Sinister can never truly match viper in condition damage, Viper becomes redundant after that 100% threshold is hit. This is… actually quite hard to do. For Viper’s to start becoming redundant, you need to have 61.4% condition duration from traits/runes/sigils. And specifically condition duration, not just stuff like Lingering Curses

So please, before you levy a criticism, make sure I have not already covered the topic…

Sorry, I missed that part, my apologies. The results of this first equation are – as you stated – misleading. My point is that if you take into account the condi duration cap, sinister will catch up before the 100% cap (only in terms of condi damage).

Edit: thanks for the marauder-zerker numbers. Concerning the dps vs enrage timer, I got the impression that people tend to be fairly optimistic about their dps uptime. Still, I completely agree that zerker is the way to go for skilled players.

Condition duration reduction food, and too many condition clears. I can’t see Viper being more effective than Sinister for those reasons. I would think higher condition damage in the short term will beat out longer condition duration in the long term.

I am thinking from at PvP/WvW point of view though.

When I obtained 85% breakeven, I plugged in the 100% duration damage solution for viper and solved for the condi duration. I have since realized that it’s doesn’t have a practical relevance since it’s not possible to achieve this duration with sinister…

Based on the outcome, I also thought that it might catch up before condi duration is capped in a sinister-viper mix, maybe mid 90%. Turns out I was wrong, and you should indeed always go for 100% condi duration first to maximize the condi damage part. I’ll leave the proof here for illustration purposes, and for people like me who need to play around with the equations to have a feel for it.

I interpolated between the viper and sinister set, starting with 65% condi duration (trapper, undead, malice, veggi pizza and toxic sharpening stone). For the same bleed example with full might (133 viper dmg, 144 sinister dmg) , this gives:

(1) Condi dmg = (133 + 11 * Fsin)(1.65 + (0.386 * Fvip)) if Fvip is ? 0.9067 (condi cap)
Where the fraction of sinister (Fsin) and viper (Fvip) stats sum to one.

Equation (1) can be rewritten as -4.246 Fvip ²+ 37.434 Fvip +237.6. This damage parabola increases between 0 and 1 and continues to do so until Fvip equals 0.9067 because of the condi cap, with a maximum of 268 total damage.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Maybe if you’re running a hybrid/condi build. As a fellow power reaper player, my advice to other power reapers is to stick with power. Even with no duration I already cap out vuln and have a high AoE chill uptime. If you wanted more chill, I’d just suggest Runes of the Ice. You lose the power/ferocity from scholar runes, but gain chill duration and a 7% damage mod against chilled foes, which is much more reliable than the scholar bonus.

---

I’ve been doing a bit of math, and Marauder might be a worthy investment for players who don’t want to go full glass.

It comes down to sheer bulk. While Marauder is basically a Berserker + Valkyrie mix, Marauder has more points. 3,362 total stats as compared to 3,087 of the previous 3 tiered sets (not including runes). This means that, while you could trade off to more durability by mixing Valkyrie and Berserker, it will be less efficient and less powerful then mixing Berserker and Marauder.

With Scholar Runes and no additional buffs, A full Marauder set has 3,497 effective power while a full Berserker set has 3,819 effective power. A difference of 9%. Most min/maxers will pull their hair out over that number, but for low HP classes that extra 579 Vitality is important. For low HP classes it is a 49.7% increase in effective HP. For mid HP classes, 36.4% increase. For high tier, 30% increase.

It isn’t optimal in a perfect comp, perfect play setting. But, 9% lower damage vs. 49.7% greater effective HP is a tradeoff that I won’t blame anyone for taking.

In max might + max fury situations, I’m getting effective polwers of 5,226 and 5,721, or an 8.6% increase by using Berserker over Marauder.

My advise would be to disregard the statement saying if you are a reaper, stick with power reaper. Viper is perfectly applicable to condi reaper builds in GW2 and power vs condi for decision making purposes will ALWAYS be up to the encounter (I don’t think anyone would debate this). Put yourself in a raiding environment (one of the few places where ascended gear really has a chance to shine), viper and condi builds are highly desirable for many reasons.

Look at the first encounter: DPS up time is a major factor in power build DPS. Being a power reaper will require you to stay on boss more often thus losing DPS uptime (blue teleports make your DPS up time go down, you will get hit by these, you will have to evade these). The second encounter: several benifits regarding reaper condi builds – not least of which is epidemic and the DPS/raid benifits that come from it. Having two epi reapers playing off eachother can provide a big boost to DPS, drop tons of adds, and be used frequently to EPI down the walls for the gors encounter.

In short, all builds are viable for different things. This is off topic but a few folks were asking why Viper Reaper was ommitted in builds that would be useful to use Viper’s armor. Condi is VERY viable on reapers and thus Viper’s is as well. It is encounter specific what works best.

At the end of the day, play what you enjoy, if you don’t enjoy the game why play?

I just use viper because it sounds cooler than sinister.

So one thing I’ve always been confused on, is why people who have condition damage want condition duration.

Now hear me out…..

I may be crazy, but condition duration does not increase the damage of the condition at all. It simple spreads out the time in which it deals its damage. So instead of dealing 1000 burn damage over 1 tick, you deal 1000 burn damage over 3 ticks. You decrease the intensity of the tick in favor of it lasting longer.

In a PvE situation where you are worried about prolonging the effects of something like Firey Wrath on guardian, I could see why you might want it. But as a person who is relying on condition damage, wouldn’t you prefer your damage to be more spiked rather than less?

I feel like everyone thinks that condition duration increases the length of the condition and by virtue increases it’s damage (i.e. it ticks 1000 damage each second for 3 seconds as opposed to 1000 over 1 second, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE). For conditions like vulnerability/fear/chill (without reaper dmg) duration is good. For those that deal damage, it is useless…

If you don’t believe me go try it.

Just wanted to say the OP was great!

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

CKres.4589:

How do you acquire viper gear?

From Auric Basin. First, you need 250 aurillium to buy the recipes for insignias, inscriptions, and exquisite jewelry. Then you need to buy the recipes for particular weapon bits. You can either buy these off of the TP, or get them via random drops from Exalted Chests from the Auric Basin meta event.

So do we all need to grind crafting to be able to make these armor sets or can we have a friend make it for us? Can the armor be purchased from the TP?

glentc.2159:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

CKres.4589:

How do you acquire viper gear?

From Auric Basin. First, you need 250 aurillium to buy the recipes for insignias, inscriptions, and exquisite jewelry. Then you need to buy the recipes for particular weapon bits. You can either buy these off of the TP, or get them via random drops from Exalted Chests from the Auric Basin meta event.

So do we all need to grind crafting to be able to make these armor sets or can we have a friend make it for us? Can the armor be purchased from the TP?

I’ll complain about grind as much as the next person, and perhaps even more. But I’m not sure getting crafting up neccessarily is a grind in most contexts.

No Viper’s can’t be sold on the TP (for better or for worse). You basically either gotta farm up the recipes and diamonds, which can be kinda grindy, sure. Or you can buy it all with gold. Either way Viper’s is gonna be very expensive in either gold or time. So I often think that people requiring Viper’s for raids which I see once in a while is a bit over the top.

Of course, you can always do the super short HoT story for the Viper’s Equipment Boxes that you get at the end. That’s one way to do it for free, and for some people, repeating the story over and over might be more attractive than doing a billion AB metas, or throwing all their gold away.

eleshazar.6902:

So one thing I’ve always been confused on, is why people who have condition damage want condition duration.

Now hear me out…..

I may be crazy, but condition duration does not increase the damage of the condition at all. It simple spreads out the time in which it deals its damage. So instead of dealing 1000 burn damage over 1 tick, you deal 1000 burn damage over 3 ticks. You decrease the intensity of the tick in favor of it lasting longer.

In a PvE situation where you are worried about prolonging the effects of something like Firey Wrath on guardian, I could see why you might want it. But as a person who is relying on condition damage, wouldn’t you prefer your damage to be more spiked rather than less?

I feel like everyone thinks that condition duration increases the length of the condition and by virtue increases it’s damage (i.e. it ticks 1000 damage each second for 3 seconds as opposed to 1000 over 1 second, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE). For conditions like vulnerability/fear/chill (without reaper dmg) duration is good. For those that deal damage, it is useless…

If you don’t believe me go try it.

You are wrong. The skill tooltips is updated to include the duration bonus.

Just got into the PvP lobby. Found that one of my skills does 2600 bleed damage. Equiped sigil of agony (+20% bleed duration) and now the skill does 3120 bleed damage in total (aka, exactly +20%)

Excludee.3850:

glentc.2159:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

CKres.4589:

How do you acquire viper gear?

From Auric Basin. First, you need 250 aurillium to buy the recipes for insignias, inscriptions, and exquisite jewelry. Then you need to buy the recipes for particular weapon bits. You can either buy these off of the TP, or get them via random drops from Exalted Chests from the Auric Basin meta event.

So do we all need to grind crafting to be able to make these armor sets or can we have a friend make it for us? Can the armor be purchased from the TP?

I’ll complain about grind as much as the next person, and perhaps even more. But I’m not sure getting crafting up neccessarily is a grind in most contexts.

No Viper’s can’t be sold on the TP (for better or for worse). You basically either gotta farm up the recipes and diamonds, which can be kinda grindy, sure. Or you can buy it all with gold. Either way Viper’s is gonna be very expensive in either gold or time. So I often think that people requiring Viper’s for raids which I see once in a while is a bit over the top.

Of course, you can always do the super short HoT story for the Viper’s Equipment Boxes that you get at the end. That’s one way to do it for free, and for some people, repeating the story over and over might be more attractive than doing a billion AB metas, or throwing all their gold away.

I’m fairly sure the reward box only contains Wanderer’s Leystone gear, not vipers.

There is one mission that rewards an exotic vipers recipe choice, though. But those are usually only a few gold on the AH so it’s not a big deal imho.

eleshazar.6902:

So one thing I’ve always been confused on, is why people who have condition damage want condition duration.

Now hear me out…..

I may be crazy, but condition duration does not increase the damage of the condition at all. It simple spreads out the time in which it deals its damage. So instead of dealing 1000 burn damage over 1 tick, you deal 1000 burn damage over 3 ticks. You decrease the intensity of the tick in favor of it lasting longer.

In a PvE situation where you are worried about prolonging the effects of something like Firey Wrath on guardian, I could see why you might want it. But as a person who is relying on condition damage, wouldn’t you prefer your damage to be more spiked rather than less?

I feel like everyone thinks that condition duration increases the length of the condition and by virtue increases it’s damage (i.e. it ticks 1000 damage each second for 3 seconds as opposed to 1000 over 1 second, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE). For conditions like vulnerability/fear/chill (without reaper dmg) duration is good. For those that deal damage, it is useless…

Enfeebling Blood used in both cases

First picture is without any duration and 473 Condition Damage

473 × 0.06 + 22 = 50.38
x 2 because it applies two stacks = 100.76 per tick
x 10 ticks = 1007.6 total damage

Second picture is with a Koi Cake
That is +20% duration and +70 Condition Damage

543 × 0.06 + 22 = 54.58
x 2 = 109.16 per tick
x 12 ticks = 1,309.92 total damage

If you don’t believe me go try it.

I am missing some rounding but it doesn’t work the way you claimed. Did YOU go try it? If it worked the way you claimed it would be

543 × 0.06 + 22 = 54.58
x 2 = 109.16 with base duration of 10s
x 10 = 1091.6 total damage
/ 12 = 90.966666~ per tick damage which is obviously not the case in the second picture

Not shown in either picture but the game also supports partial ticks in cases where your duration increase doesn’t increase it by a whole second.

eleshazar.6902:

I feel like everyone thinks that condition duration increases the length of the condition and by virtue increases it’s damage (i.e. it ticks 1000 damage each second for 3 seconds as opposed to 1000 over 1 second, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE).

Actually, if the base condition were to tick for 1000 damage for 1 second, then increasing the duration to 3 seconds would indeed increase the total damage to 3,000. You understand how condition damage works as well as you claim you do. Hop into the Heart of the Mists and play around with it a bit.

Khisanth.2948:

eleshazar.6902:

So one thing I’ve always been confused on, is why people who have condition damage want condition duration.

Now hear me out…..

I may be crazy, but condition duration does not increase the damage of the condition at all. It simple spreads out the time in which it deals its damage. So instead of dealing 1000 burn damage over 1 tick, you deal 1000 burn damage over 3 ticks. You decrease the intensity of the tick in favor of it lasting longer.

In a PvE situation where you are worried about prolonging the effects of something like Firey Wrath on guardian, I could see why you might want it. But as a person who is relying on condition damage, wouldn’t you prefer your damage to be more spiked rather than less?

I feel like everyone thinks that condition duration increases the length of the condition and by virtue increases it’s damage (i.e. it ticks 1000 damage each second for 3 seconds as opposed to 1000 over 1 second, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE). For conditions like vulnerability/fear/chill (without reaper dmg) duration is good. For those that deal damage, it is useless…

Enfeebling Blood used in both cases

First picture is without any duration and 473 Condition Damage

473 × 0.06 + 22 = 50.38
x 2 because it applies two stacks = 100.76 per tick
x 10 ticks = 1007.6 total damage

Second picture is with a Koi Cake
That is +20% duration and +70 Condition Damage

543 × 0.06 + 22 = 54.58
x 2 = 109.16 per tick
x 12 ticks = 1,309.92 total damage

If you don’t believe me go try it.

I am missing some rounding but it doesn’t work the way you claimed. Did YOU go try it? If it worked the way you claimed it would be

543 × 0.06 + 22 = 54.58
x 2 = 109.16 with base duration of 10s
x 10 = 1091.6 total damage
/ 12 = 90.966666~ per tick damage which is obviously not the case in the second picture

Not shown in either picture but the game also supports partial ticks in cases where your duration increase doesn’t increase it by a whole second.

That’s what I don’t understand. I tried this in HoTM a year ago and it did decrease my burn tick. I just went with Judge’s Intervention against a golem. I tried it with and without condi duration added in my build (this was back when condi duration could be tied to traits). Maybe it has changed since then, but I am 100% positive it worked that way 1 year ago. The discussion page on the wiki for condition duration also notes that this is the way that it works. So I don’t know if it was changed in that timeframe. If it has then I get why people want condi duration. I’ll jump in hotm when I get home and try it again now to see if it has changed.

eleshazar.6902:

That’s what I don’t understand. I tried this in HoTM a year ago and it did decrease my burn tick. I just went with Judge’s Intervention against a golem. I tried it with and without condi duration added in my build (this was back when condi duration could be tied to traits). Maybe it has changed since then, but I am 100% positive it worked that way 1 year ago. The discussion page on the wiki for condition duration also notes that this is the way that it works. So I don’t know if it was changed in that timeframe. If it has then I get why people want condi duration. I’ll jump in hotm when I get home and try it again now to see if it has changed.

Condition duration has never decreased damage per tick. Not once has that been the case since the release of the game, and if it were to happen, it would be the result of a bug.

Now, Condition damage used to only deal damage once per second, so if your ticks weren’t in precise one-second intervals you would be wasting damage potential, but even then the per-tick damage didn’t go down.

eleshazar.6902:

That’s what I don’t understand. I tried this in HoTM a year ago and it did decrease my burn tick. I just went with Judge’s Intervention against a golem. I tried it with and without condi duration added in my build (this was back when condi duration could be tied to traits). Maybe it has changed since then, but I am 100% positive it worked that way 1 year ago. The discussion page on the wiki for condition duration also notes that this is the way that it works. So I don’t know if it was changed in that timeframe. If it has then I get why people want condi duration. I’ll jump in hotm when I get home and try it again now to see if it has changed.

Pretty sure it has never worked like that but prior to the condition stacking changes increasing duration wasn’t very useful for burning and poison.

If you are referring to the "It’s the same amount of damage per second, just for a longer period. I’ve no idea, however, if durations are somehow rounded. " comment that is not what it is saying.

Harry the Hobo.3407:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Maybe if you’re running a hybrid/condi build. As a fellow power reaper player, my advice to other power reapers is to stick with power. Even with no duration I already cap out vuln and have a high AoE chill uptime. If you wanted more chill, I’d just suggest Runes of the Ice. You lose the power/ferocity from scholar runes, but gain chill duration and a 7% damage mod against chilled foes, which is much more reliable than the scholar bonus.

---

I’ve been doing a bit of math, and Marauder might be a worthy investment for players who don’t want to go full glass.

It comes down to sheer bulk. While Marauder is basically a Berserker + Valkyrie mix, Marauder has more points. 3,362 total stats as compared to 3,087 of the previous 3 tiered sets (not including runes). This means that, while you could trade off to more durability by mixing Valkyrie and Berserker, it will be less efficient and less powerful then mixing Berserker and Marauder.

With Scholar Runes and no additional buffs, A full Marauder set has 3,497 effective power while a full Berserker set has 3,819 effective power. A difference of 9%. Most min/maxers will pull their hair out over that number, but for low HP classes that extra 579 Vitality is important. For low HP classes it is a 49.7% increase in effective HP. For mid HP classes, 36.4% increase. For high tier, 30% increase.

It isn’t optimal in a perfect comp, perfect play setting. But, 9% lower damage vs. 49.7% greater effective HP is a tradeoff that I won’t blame anyone for taking.

In max might + max fury situations, I’m getting effective polwers of 5,226 and 5,721, or an 8.6% increase by using Berserker over Marauder.

My advise would be to disregard the statement saying if you are a reaper, stick with power reaper.

You’ve already gotten it wrong. The guy was talking about using Viper’s sets to get extra chill/vuln duration for a power build. My advice to power builds is to stay a power build and don’t run viper for extra vuln/chill duration. Pay attention now.

I’ve only started playing guild wars for just a little over a month and I main a condi ranger.
I’ve been wondering if viper is really generally better than sinister whilst having the length of the fights into consideration. I mean, I’m a total noob and know next to nothing about boss fights yet (unless its a map boss) but are the fights really gonna be long enough for the +duration to kick in?

xephias.4098:

I’ve only started playing guild wars for just a little over a month and I main a condi ranger.
I’ve been wondering if viper is really generally better than sinister whilst having the length of the fights into consideration. I mean, I’m a total noob and know next to nothing about boss fights yet (unless its a map boss) but are the fights really gonna be long enough for the +duration to kick in?

For champions and above yes, in most cases.

Khisanth.2948:

xephias.4098:

I’ve only started playing guild wars for just a little over a month and I main a condi ranger.
I’ve been wondering if viper is really generally better than sinister whilst having the length of the fights into consideration. I mean, I’m a total noob and know next to nothing about boss fights yet (unless its a map boss) but are the fights really gonna be long enough for the +duration to kick in?

For champions and above yes, in most cases.

to add: for vets and below no, but it also doesnt matter if your fight takes 1.1 sec instead of 1 sec because your damage has a slightly longer ramp time with a higher maximum. unless youre going for some kind of record in open world pve, the major place where that kind of trash mob exists……….

Hey! The math part seems inaccurate.

Sinister Bleed Damage x (1 + Condition Duration) = Viper Bleed Damage x (1.39 + Condition Duration).

The right part already include the condition duration increased by Viper (1 +0.39)
So, Condition Duration on the right part is redundant.

Let me correct:

Sinister Bleed Damage x (1 + Condition Duration) = Viper Bleed Damage x (1.39)
Condition Duration = 0.24

This means that Sinister requires only 24% additional condition duration to make it on-par with Vipers’. The claim 212% duration difference is inaccurate!

SIMULATION

Here, I have made a simulation using MATLAB. If you have MATLAB, you can play around. Surprisingly, when the condition is applied repeatedly, Sinister performs much higher condition damage, both DPS and cumulative. This is a real situation when we can spam a skill that applies a condition, especially Reaper/Necromancer with Scepter 1 or Shroud 1 (Dhuumfire). Conclusion, condition stacking makes Sinister performing better than Vipers’.

MATLAB code:

close all; clc;

sinister_damage = 99;
vipers_damage = 88;

vipers_duration_modifier = 1.39;

condition_duration_base = 15;
condition_inverval = 5;
condition_stack = 1;

vipers_duration = condition_duration_base*vipers_duration_modifier;
sinister_duration = condition_duration_base;

sinister_tick = condition_stack;
vipers_tick = condition_stack;

time = 1:60;
sinister_current_damage = zeros(size(time));
vipers_current_damage = zeros(size(time));

for i = time

    if sinister_duration >=1
        sinister_current_damage(i) = sinister_tick*sinister_damage;
    elseif sinister_duration > 0
        sinister_current_damage(i) = sinister_tick*sinister_damage*sinister_duration;
    else
        sinister_current_damage(i)= 0;
    end

    if sinister_duration >0
        sinister_duration = sinister_duration - 1;
    end

    if sinister_duration <=0
        if sinister_tick > 0
            sinister_tick = sinister_tick - 1;
        end
    end

    if mod(i,condition_inverval) == 0
        sinister_tick = sinister_tick + stack;
        sinister_duration = sinister_duration + condition_duration_base;
    end

end


for i = time

    if vipers_duration >= 1
        vipers_current_damage(i) = vipers_tick*vipers_damage;
    elseif sinister_duration > 0
        vipers_current_damage(i) = vipers_tick*vipers_damage*vipers_duration;
    else
        vipers_current_damage(i)= 0;
    end
  
    if vipers_duration > 0
        vipers_duration = vipers_duration - 1;
    end
    
    if vipers_duration <=0
        if vipers_tick > 0
            vipers_tick = vipers_tick - 1;
        end
    end
    
    if mod(i,condition_inverval) == 0
        vipers_tick = vipers_tick + stack;
        vipers_duration = vipers_duration + condition_duration_base;
    end 
   
end

figure()
semilogy(time,cumsum(sinister_current_damage),time,cumsum(vipers_current_damage));
legend('sinister','vipers');title('Cumulative Damage')

figure()
plot(time,sinister_current_damage,time,vipers_current_damage);
legend('sinister','vipers');title('Damage');

REVOLVET.4807:

Let me correct:

Sinister Bleed Damage x (1 + Condition Duration) = Viper Bleed Damage x (1.39)
Condition Duration = 0.24

This means that Sinister requires only 24% additional condition duration to make it on-par with Vipers’. The claim 212% duration difference is inaccurate!

Math is not my strong suit (coding even less so), but it looks like you’re comparing Sinister with +24% duration to Viper with no additional duration. In which case, it shouldn’t really be surprising that Sinister can break even with Viper when it’s given a free stat advantage. Or have I misunderstood you?

I’m sorry that the previous simulation lacks of ‘condition expiration’. Now, I’ve fixed the code.

The result is now consistent with what have discussed so far. In the early phase, Sinister performs better than Vipers. Then, there is an even-break point, which Vipers performs better afterwards. The even-break point is about the base condition duration (a bit longer).

Now, we’ll be more confident to choose the proper gear stats for a certain situation.

I’ll give you a new code. It’s not optimized. So, it’s pretty lengthy. You can play with the parameter part (about first 10 lines).

close all; clc; clear;

%%%% Define Value %%%%

sinister_damage = 99;
vipers_damage = 88;

vipers_duration_modifier = 1.39;

condition_duration_base = 5;
condition_inverval = 1;
condition_stack = 3;

%%%% End Define Value %%%%

time = 1:90;
max_application = ceil(time(end)/condition_inverval);

stack_no = 0;
damage_tab = zeros(2,max_application);
current_damage = zeros(size(time));
damage_base = sinister_damage;
multiplier = 1.00;
condition_duration_base = condition_duration_base*multiplier;

for i = time
  
    if mod((i-1),condition_inverval) == 0
        stack_no = stack_no + 1;
        damage_tab(1,stack_no) = condition_duration_base;
        damage_tab(2,stack_no) = condition_stack;      
    end
 
    for j = 1:max_application
        current_duration = damage_tab(1,j);
        
        if current_duration >= 1
            damage = damage_tab(2,j)*damage_base;
        elseif current_duration > 0
            damage = damage_tab(2,j)*damage_base*current_duration;
        else
            damage = 0;
        end
        
        current_damage(i) = current_damage(i) + damage;
        
        if damage_tab(1,j) >0
            damage_tab(1,j) = damage_tab(1,j) - 1;
        end
        
        if damage_tab(1,j) <= 0
            damage_tab(2,j) = 0;
        end
    end

end

sinister_damage = current_damage;


stack_no = 0;
damage_tab = zeros(2,max_application);
current_damage = zeros(size(time));
damage_base = vipers_damage;
multiplier = vipers_duration_modifier;
condition_duration_base = condition_duration_base*multiplier;

for i = time
  
    if mod((i-1),condition_inverval) == 0
        stack_no = stack_no + 1;
        damage_tab(1,stack_no) = condition_duration_base;
        damage_tab(2,stack_no) = condition_stack;     
    end

    for j = 1:max_application
        current_duration = damage_tab(1,j);
        
        if current_duration >= 1
            damage = damage_tab(2,j)*damage_base;
        elseif current_duration > 0
            damage = damage_tab(2,j)*damage_base*current_duration;
        else
            damage = 0;
        end
        
        current_damage(i) = current_damage(i) + damage;
        
        if damage_tab(1,j) > 0
            if damage_tab(1,j) >=1
                damage_tab(1,j) = damage_tab(1,j) - 1;
            else
                damage_tab(1,j) = 0;
            end
        end
        
        if damage_tab(1,j) <= 0
            damage_tab(2,j) = 0;
        end
    end
    
end

vipers_damage = current_damage;


figure()
semilogy(time,cumsum(sinister_damage),time,cumsum(vipers_damage));
legend('Sinister','Vipers');title('Cumulative Damage');xlabel('Time (sec)');ylabel('Damage');

figure()
plot(time,sinister_damage,time,vipers_damage);
legend('Sinister','Vipers');title('Damage per Second');xlabel('Time (sec)');ylabel('Damage');

Blaine beat me to it. Yeah, that first equation assumed that Viper didn’t receive any duration buffs.

As far as when each set beats the other, that is on a class and build specific basis. Generally it is the quicker a condition would expire, the faster you get extra ticks, which means that Viper gains an advantage quicker.

xephias.4098:

I’ve only started playing guild wars for just a little over a month and I main a condi ranger.
I’ve been wondering if viper is really generally better than sinister whilst having the length of the fights into consideration. I mean, I’m a total noob and know next to nothing about boss fights yet (unless its a map boss) but are the fights really gonna be long enough for the +duration to kick in?

The answer is yes. On two counts. First is that the ranger has a very diverse set of damaging conditions (plenty of bleed, poison, and burn) and disabling conditions (cripple, chill, immobilize) so duration increases them all quite substantially. Second is that the ranger has a large number of short duration conditions that pulse rapidly, meaning that extra condi duration starts kicking in very quickly (within 5 seconds sometimes).

If you’re by yourself, this is basically any veteran mob. In a group it is some elites and any champion mob. Or a particularly stubborn/evasive vet. I own a condi ranger myself, and Full Viper has been excellent. I sit at 91% condi duration with super veggie pizza and no focusing crystal, and watching my burns tick for 8k, bleed for 3k, poison for 3k against entire groups of enemies is super satisfying.

I still like Sinister > Viper for direct damage.

Monk Tank.5897:

I still like Sinister > Viper for direct damage.

Unless I have missed something, Viper does more direct damage. It has higher effective power, and against many environmental objects you can’t crit anyway.

Sheobix.8796:

Jesus the calculus nerds came out to play tonight

Why can’t yall just play with Rabid/Rampagers like all the normal condition peasants?

I’m going to tell you a secret: mathematics, logic, and the art of argument are all a convoluted way of flexing our muscles to other people. it is about being the big, macho dude, but “macho” here is in a non-conventional way.

We’re debating the fact of the matter, much like how meat heads at the beach debate who is “strongest” by posturing and flexing. While fact exists there (one guy is the “strongest”), there’s going to be a lot of struggle to come to that fact.

Verata > 32% crit chance.

You’ll have to explain what you mean by that. In return, I’ll explain what effective power is.

Effective power is the amount of “power” that any set has after it has been scaled up for critical hits. This measurement is used because power scales with damage linearly, so when comparing sets you can tell at a glance which one will do more.

Effective power itself isn’t just power. Technically it is power x (chance to crit x damage on crit + chance to not crit). For example, Sinister has 1878 base power, but with a 46.8% chance to crit, this is:

Effctive power = 1878 x (0.468 × 1.5 + 0.532) = 1878 × 1.234 = 2,317

So with crits included, it is roughly the same as if you had 2,317 power. Viper has 2401 effective power, meaning that Viper does more direct damage.

Now, if what you are doing is comparing an ascended set with an exotic set… well you’re not being logical. The numbers I posted are both assuming exotic tiered gear. If you want to see which one is better, you should compare Verata to Yassith. Though the trinkets might be a bit hard to acquire…

BRA (man, your initials), you’re funny and your posts are informative without bogging down into Excel spreadsheets. Post more.

Thanks for the post OP. I was debating viper for a condition damage character, now I know I’m going to go that way.

I like Viper because there’s a vast amount of conditions and it improves all of them; including defensive ones like cripple, weakness, vuln, etc. High dmg + survival + generally being annoying to fight.
Higher direct dmg is nice too since there are things like Diamond Skin that are somehow allowed to exist~ among other things that shun condi dmg.

It really depend on class/ build and the food you’re using.

For condition Berserker, you only need 27% condition duration to hit 100% burning duration with food. (Assuming you’re using sigil of malice and sigil of smoldering)
Any extra point in the condition duration would be a waste.
If you use the expensive stuff like toxic toning crystal, the requirement would be even lower.

Again, you’re excluding the traits synergy. I did my own min-max and find out exactly how many pieces I need to hit 100% burning duration while maximizing my condition damage

Each class’s requirement would be different. Requirement for cond necro and engi is an entire different story too!

3 black diamonds are required for each armor piece.
last time i checked it, it was like 2.5 gold per diamond on the TP.
(2.5×3)×6 (armor pieces)= 45 gold= a lot of money.
And i didn’t even put the weapons or the accessories into it…
That’s all the math i need to see that sinister is for me :>

I think this thread wins the award for being my most pervasive thread. Months later and people are still trying to tear me down.

Aomine.5012:

It really depend on class/ build and the food you’re using.

For condition Berserker, you only need 27% condition duration to hit 100% burning duration with food. (Assuming you’re using sigil of malice and sigil of smoldering)
Any extra point in the condition duration would be a waste.
If you use the expensive stuff like toxic toning crystal, the requirement would be even lower.

Again, you’re excluding the traits synergy. I did my own min-max and find out exactly how many pieces I need to hit 100% burning duration while maximizing my condition damage

Each class’s requirement would be different. Requirement for cond necro and engi is an entire different story too!

I’m not excluding anything. I’m not going into the specifics for every single class and build. That would take forever and wouldn’t accomplish anything, as it would give players a million ways to nitpick. Instead, I just showed that, so long as you gain condition duration, Viper’s is better than Sinister. That fact holds true no matter what class you’re playing, or what build you use. As much as I like buzz words, “trait synergy” here doesn’t describe anything meaningful to the topic.

As far as build specifics go, that really depends. It sounds like you’ve just come up some generalized idea and are arguing my post without actually checking anything. For all we know, smoldering + malice in sinister is worse than bursting + corruption with Viper.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I think this thread wins the award for being my most pervasive thread. Months later and people are still trying to tear me down.

Aomine.5012:

It really depend on class/ build and the food you’re using.

For condition Berserker, you only need 27% condition duration to hit 100% burning duration with food. (Assuming you’re using sigil of malice and sigil of smoldering)
Any extra point in the condition duration would be a waste.
If you use the expensive stuff like toxic toning crystal, the requirement would be even lower.

Again, you’re excluding the traits synergy. I did my own min-max and find out exactly how many pieces I need to hit 100% burning duration while maximizing my condition damage

Each class’s requirement would be different. Requirement for cond necro and engi is an entire different story too!

I’m not excluding anything. I’m not going into the specifics for every single class and build. That would take forever and wouldn’t accomplish anything, as it would give players a million ways to nitpick. Instead, I just showed that, so long as you gain condition duration, Viper’s is better than Sinister. That fact holds true no matter what class you’re playing, or what build you use. As much as I like buzz words, “trait synergy” here doesn’t describe anything meaningful to the topic.

As far as build specifics go, that really depends. It sounds like you’ve just come up some generalized idea and are arguing my post without actually checking anything. For all we know, smoldering + malice in sinister is worse than bursting + corruption with Viper.

Guess someone really is kinda over-reacted, thinking people are all trying to tear you down or something by discussing different situations and different opinion.

All I do is providing some real life experience about a specific spec that may not need too many viper sets to begin with. Even the top raid groups know that going full Viper is never the smartest idea in raid, proven by their time record and gear choice.
Anything that exceed that threshhold diminishes the value of Viper gears. The purpose of my previous post is to prove that you may not need as many Viper gears to achieve the best result, depending on class and spec, and going full Viper may not necessary be the best idea either.

And no, by choosing full viper, you waste alot of stats, giving up straight 20% or 10% worth of stat for an inferior 6% trade-off. Corruption is also very situational, and may not be useful/ optimal in many situations where you may go down often or not enough mobs to begin with.

Last note, don’t be offended just because someone is trying to discussing/ debating a point with you and suddenly you go all aggressive. To me, your attitude is like: “I’m right! You’re wrong! You’re annoying, so shut-up now!”, somewhat childish attitude.

for me, +80% duration (with food/crytals etc) is more than sufficient. no need +100%.

viper till +80%, then slot in sinisters.

Aomine.5012:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I think this thread wins the award for being my most pervasive thread. Months later and people are still trying to tear me down.

Aomine.5012:

It really depend on class/ build and the food you’re using.

For condition Berserker, you only need 27% condition duration to hit 100% burning duration with food. (Assuming you’re using sigil of malice and sigil of smoldering)
Any extra point in the condition duration would be a waste.
If you use the expensive stuff like toxic toning crystal, the requirement would be even lower.

Again, you’re excluding the traits synergy. I did my own min-max and find out exactly how many pieces I need to hit 100% burning duration while maximizing my condition damage

Each class’s requirement would be different. Requirement for cond necro and engi is an entire different story too!

I’m not excluding anything. I’m not going into the specifics for every single class and build. That would take forever and wouldn’t accomplish anything, as it would give players a million ways to nitpick. Instead, I just showed that, so long as you gain condition duration, Viper’s is better than Sinister. That fact holds true no matter what class you’re playing, or what build you use. As much as I like buzz words, “trait synergy” here doesn’t describe anything meaningful to the topic.

As far as build specifics go, that really depends. It sounds like you’ve just come up some generalized idea and are arguing my post without actually checking anything. For all we know, smoldering + malice in sinister is worse than bursting + corruption with Viper.

Guess someone really is kinda over-reacted, thinking people are all trying to tear you down or something by discussing different situations and different opinion.

All I do is providing some real life experience about a specific spec that may not need too many viper sets to begin with. Even the top raid groups know that going full Viper is never the smartest idea in raid, proven by their time record and gear choice.
Anything that exceed that threshhold diminishes the value of Viper gears. The purpose of my previous post is to prove that you may not need as many Viper gears to achieve the best result, depending on class and spec, and going full Viper may not necessary be the best idea either.

And no, by choosing full viper, you waste alot of stats, giving up straight 20% or 10% worth of stat for an inferior 6% trade-off. Corruption is also very situational, and may not be useful/ optimal in many situations where you may go down often or not enough mobs to begin with.

Last note, don’t be offended just because someone is trying to discussing/ debating a point with you and suddenly you go all aggressive. To me, your attitude is like: “I’m right! You’re wrong! You’re annoying, so shut-up now!”, somewhat childish attitude.

The thing is, the whole " don’t go over 100%" thing, as well as choosing having specific builds that won’t need full viper, that’s already in the first post of this thread. It is elaborated on several times in several permutations throughout the thread. So, whenever someone brings up a point of contention that I have already discussed… in the very first post of the thread… and adds nothing on top of that fact, then I have suspect illegitimate thoughts. It happens all the time:

Me: “Run viper. Here’s a bunch of math showing why. Exceptions include mono-condi builds already at the cap…”
Poster: “Ah hah! You are wrong, because if you have a mono condi build already at the cap…”

And this only happens in two circumstances. Either someone was so eager to disagree or be contrary that they didn’t bother to read everything, or they aren’t good at reading and thus didn’t obtain/retain the information. Now I can understand if someone makes a mistake, but when you bring up a 23 day old topic just to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty, well, you aren’t going to garner any respect.

Your personal transgressions aside, you’re forgetting stat synergy: Condition damage and condition duration multiply each other. So, by going for Viper + Bursting, you aren’t getting 6%. You are getting 6% x increase in condi duration for overall damage. The strongest set isn’t which side has the biggest piece (I.E. Sigil of Smoldering), but which set has the highest overall product. The thing with the viper set is that, since it gives expertise and condition damage, it has an overall higher sum.

To demonstrate this, I’m going to take the values in the first post, and make a “scaled condi damage” stat. This is the actual damage your condition would do, multiplied by the duration. Viper has a scaled burn damage of 417, as compared to Sinister’s 331. With a sigil of smoldering, Sinister’s scaled damage is 397, which is still less than Viper’s by itself. If you give Sinister both Malice and smoldering, its scaled burn damage goes up to 430. But, if you also give Viper the sigil of bursting, its base burn damage goes to 312, and its scaled burn damage goes up to 432. Now this is all at base, and the more might you add, the better Viper becomes, because the difference between their damage is a static number. You can also conclude here that Viper + Bursting is greater than Sinister + Smoldering + Malice. The best part is, Viper still has an open sigil space.

As it happens, I have already done some work on this. At the request of another player, I was asked to evaluate the effectiveness of a burn guardian when comparing either full sinister + smoldering, or viper/sinister mix + other runes. Much like above, the conclusion I came to is that, if you are a mono condi user, it is best to swap out duration boosting sigils with other ones, and hybrid with Viper until you reach reach 100% duration.

Sinister for short fights. If your going for only 1 type of condition, like burning on the warrior then just get runes for the duration (Balthazar) and your better of with it then Vipers.
Vipers for prolonged fights and if your using lots of different condition damage types, like raid bosses.