Guild Wars 2

Guys, you keep forgetting that there is content and mobs in this game designed around anti stacking or intellignet AI…..usually that is the most reviled content in the game (arah p4, dredge fractal) or once the novelty goes away completely abandoned (aetherpath).

At the end of the day these dungeons must be run multiple times. Can you see yourself running molten facilty and aetherblade retreat, every day, multiple paths for tokens or money and not get fed up with the mechanics at one point? Cause that’s what happened with the aether path :P

I would say let them add new dungeons with your suggestions and wishes in mind but leave the core generally untouched, making those runs harder and longer will only hurt the ppl running them economically (see the hotw p1 and what the troll added there did to pugging) for no good reason, especially in the light of the recent farming nerfs.

If a dungeon doesnt take 2hrs to complete it isnt a dungeon.

AlexEBT.7240:

At the end of the day these dungeons must be run multiple times. Can you see yourself running molten facilty and aetherblade retreat, every day, multiple paths for tokens or money and not get fed up with the mechanics at one point? Cause that’s what happened with the aether path :P

I would do the aetherpath if it would be more rewarding.

AlexEBT.7240:

Guys, you keep forgetting that there is content and mobs in this game designed around anti stacking or intellignet AI…..usually that is the most reviled content in the game (arah p4, dredge fractal) or once the novelty goes away completely abandoned (aetherpath).

At the end of the day these dungeons must be run multiple times. Can you see yourself running molten facilty and aetherblade retreat, every day, multiple paths for tokens or money and not get fed up with the mechanics at one point? Cause that’s what happened with the aether path :P

I would say let them add new dungeons with your suggestions and wishes in mind but leave the core generally untouched, making those runs harder and longer will only hurt the ppl running them economically (see the hotw p1 and what the troll added there did to pugging) for no good reason, especially in the light of the recent farming nerfs.

The thing you’re forgetting is that different people have different views of what’s fun.

I find repeated ‘skip-n-stack’ speedruns hellishly boring and pointless, which is why I rarely do dungeons where this is the rule rather than the exception.

To a lot of us fun=challenging and interesting mechanics that are reactive rather than memorized. The closer the encounters get to PacMan patterns the farther I stay away from them.

Wasbunny.6531:

AlexEBT.7240:

Guys, you keep forgetting that there is content and mobs in this game designed around anti stacking or intellignet AI…..usually that is the most reviled content in the game (arah p4, dredge fractal) or once the novelty goes away completely abandoned (aetherpath).

At the end of the day these dungeons must be run multiple times. Can you see yourself running molten facilty and aetherblade retreat, every day, multiple paths for tokens or money and not get fed up with the mechanics at one point? Cause that’s what happened with the aether path :P

I would say let them add new dungeons with your suggestions and wishes in mind but leave the core generally untouched, making those runs harder and longer will only hurt the ppl running them economically (see the hotw p1 and what the troll added there did to pugging) for no good reason, especially in the light of the recent farming nerfs.

The thing you’re forgetting is that different people have different views of what’s fun.

I find repeated ‘skip-n-stack’ speedruns hellishly boring and pointless, which is why I rarely do dungeons where this is the rule rather than the exception.

To a lot of us fun=challenging and interesting mechanics that are reactive rather than memorized. The closer the encounters get to PacMan patterns the farther I stay away from them.

That’s why i said they should add over dungeons tailored to your sensibilities as well, but keep the hellishly boring ones as well since they are a major source of income for a lot of ppl.

AlexEBT.7240:

Wasbunny.6531:

AlexEBT.7240:

Guys, you keep forgetting that there is content and mobs in this game designed around anti stacking or intellignet AI…..usually that is the most reviled content in the game (arah p4, dredge fractal) or once the novelty goes away completely abandoned (aetherpath).

At the end of the day these dungeons must be run multiple times. Can you see yourself running molten facilty and aetherblade retreat, every day, multiple paths for tokens or money and not get fed up with the mechanics at one point? Cause that’s what happened with the aether path :P

I would say let them add new dungeons with your suggestions and wishes in mind but leave the core generally untouched, making those runs harder and longer will only hurt the ppl running them economically (see the hotw p1 and what the troll added there did to pugging) for no good reason, especially in the light of the recent farming nerfs.

The thing you’re forgetting is that different people have different views of what’s fun.

I find repeated ‘skip-n-stack’ speedruns hellishly boring and pointless, which is why I rarely do dungeons where this is the rule rather than the exception.

To a lot of us fun=challenging and interesting mechanics that are reactive rather than memorized. The closer the encounters get to PacMan patterns the farther I stay away from them.

That’s why i said they should add over dungeons tailored to your sensibilities as well, but keep the hellishly boring ones as well since they are a major source of income for a lot of ppl.

this is probably the best bet. not reworking the old content, but making new content thats a bit harder, probably the best bet is like hard modes in new areas that are clearly labeled as being harder

phys.7689:

AlexEBT.7240:

Wasbunny.6531:

AlexEBT.7240:

Guys, you keep forgetting that there is content and mobs in this game designed around anti stacking or intellignet AI…..usually that is the most reviled content in the game (arah p4, dredge fractal) or once the novelty goes away completely abandoned (aetherpath).

At the end of the day these dungeons must be run multiple times. Can you see yourself running molten facilty and aetherblade retreat, every day, multiple paths for tokens or money and not get fed up with the mechanics at one point? Cause that’s what happened with the aether path :P

I would say let them add new dungeons with your suggestions and wishes in mind but leave the core generally untouched, making those runs harder and longer will only hurt the ppl running them economically (see the hotw p1 and what the troll added there did to pugging) for no good reason, especially in the light of the recent farming nerfs.

The thing you’re forgetting is that different people have different views of what’s fun.

I find repeated ‘skip-n-stack’ speedruns hellishly boring and pointless, which is why I rarely do dungeons where this is the rule rather than the exception.

To a lot of us fun=challenging and interesting mechanics that are reactive rather than memorized. The closer the encounters get to PacMan patterns the farther I stay away from them.

That’s why i said they should add over dungeons tailored to your sensibilities as well, but keep the hellishly boring ones as well since they are a major source of income for a lot of ppl.

this is probably the best bet. not reworking the old content, but making new content thats a bit harder, probably the best bet is like hard modes in new areas that are clearly labeled as being harder

Yeah that’s a pretty fair compromise really. The only problem right now is except for the Aetherpath in TA the ratio of stackable to non-stackable is really unbalanced. If there were more options with content that didn’t require an explicit disclaimer in LFG about ‘no skipping/stacking’ I think it’d be a win/win.

Come to think of it I can’t think of one example of new content that was added that didn’t at least experiment with stack-busting mechanics. This might be exactly what ArenaNet is planning, hope so.

@maha: Having to CC an enemy so you can wail on them in melee actually sounds pretty fun. It’d be fun going around packing, Devourer, Balilisk and Icedrake Venoms.
I like some actual “fight” in my fights. When dungeons don’t feel like a struggle, when the only question you need to ask in a dungeon is “where do I stand?” the dungeon becomes boring straight out of the gate, and unsatisfying at the end.

One question comes to mind, if all you care about in dungeons is getting the reward at the end as fast as possible, can you really say you love dungeons? From my PoV, you’re just forcing yourself to endure them so you can get your meager restitution at the end, and if that’s the case, if dungeons became too slow to be considered farmable, I assume you’d just find some other way to farm gold quickly.

On a side note, I think I heard Coffeemug in that vid.

So back to the original brainstorming of ideas for anti-stacking mechanics, I think that any of these so far presented would be interesting if players also had access to them.

These would be sort of zerg dispursing abilities that would be extremely interesting in WvW for small groups to break up zerg blobs. Would also require more coordination and flexibility for the zerg to counter them.

I had one idea awhile back when the new GM traits came out.
Sorry it’s a bit long, just copy/pasted from my original thread.

An idea for either a replacement for the newly proposed Grandmaster trait Disruptor’s Sustainment or as a future additional Grandmaster trait for the Mesmer.

I feel this stays consistant with the boost to healing & support as well as the general Mesmer theme of ‘bad for you, good for me’.

Inspiration (Grandmaster Trait)
Merciful Madness – Any Confusion supplied by the Mesmer heals up to five allies around the target for 50% of the damage caused. Does not scale with healing power. No internal cool-down.

This would have some interesting side effects.

• Indirectly it would be converting condition damage / duration stats into a type of healing power, since the amount of healing is directly tied to the damage caused by Confusion.

• The healing could be triggered by multiple sources to an even greater number of allies, if they are infected with Confusion and use a skill.

• In certain situations it would motivate the Mesmer to get within melee range in order to get the healing in 1v1, with the obvious risks involved in being close to the target.

• Further punishes the target for not cleansing the Confusion and using skills, not by buffing the damage but by turning the target into a healer for their enemy (a very Mesmery trick).

• In WvW and large PvE events this would give further support from the Mesmer to large groups.

• Interesting counter-play and tactics could result. For instance melee enemies with high healing but low condition cleansing would be motivated to isolate themselves instead of just trying to out heal the Confusion while attacking.

• Would make Confusion / Condition Mesmers more viable and effective in PvE.

I could see mobs having this ability too, especially when a large numbers are clustered together. Anyway that was one idea I had that seems relevant to the thread.

@maha I really don’t think a game where you just take pure DPS utilities and nothing else because everything else is useless makes a good game. IE, what GW2 is atm apart from a few select cases like 40+ grawl.

Didn’t read the thread but I can remember all the time I spent in GW1 trying unstack the henchmen before Nightfall was released. A bit amused that several years were spent trying to avoid stacking in GW1, now people are going to spend several years stacking in GW2. I wonder what GW3 will bring? Vertical stacking?

Come to think of it I can’t think of one example of new content that was added that didn’t at least experiment with stack-busting mechanics. This might be exactly what ArenaNet is planning, hope so.

Your average player will weep a thousand tears and your elite will blaze through it like they always did, always intended and always will.

One day, if you all keep asking for it, ArenaNet will get a “good” anti-stacking mechanic, and while we will mitigate it through superior skill, dodges and other sources, your average player/pug will not be able to get past it. They’ll wipe and wipe and wipe. And then they’ll complain that the game doesn’t let them stack.

Be careful what you wish for.

@maha: Having to CC an enemy so you can wail on them in melee actually sounds pretty fun. It’d be fun going around packing, Devourer, Balilisk and Icedrake Venoms.
I like some actual “fight” in my fights. When dungeons don’t feel like a struggle, when the only question you need to ask in a dungeon is “where do I stand?” the dungeon becomes boring straight out of the gate, and unsatisfying at the end.

It’s not actually fun at all. We literally spammed our CC skills off cooldown then just did standard dps rotations. It’s not interesting, it’s a DPS throttle preventing us from taking weapons and utilities to deal more damage.

If you want actual fights, honestly, just do Fractals. If your pug group isn’t trying to just safe spot everything, there are some pretty legit fights.

One question comes to mind, if all you care about in dungeons is getting the reward at the end as fast as possible, can you really say you love dungeons? From my PoV, you’re just forcing yourself to endure them so you can get your meager restitution at the end, and if that’s the case, if dungeons became too slow to be considered farmable, I assume you’d just find some other way to farm gold quickly.

You have me mistaken if you think I just care about getting the reward asap. I’ve spent hours in pug Arah runs because even though I could blitz away and solo the entire thing I keep to the pace of the pug group. I purely do the dungeons I do for fun, plus some nice loot and gold on the side. It’s why I basically just do Arah and SE, plus COF p1 every now and then (not doing it for months on end then starting to do it again actually makes it kind of refreshing).

If I’m not enjoying myself, I don’t do the dungeon, that’s my rule.

On a side note, I think I heard Coffeemug in that vid.

yes

@maha I really don’t think a game where you just take pure DPS utilities and nothing else because everything else is useless makes a good game. IE, what GW2 is atm apart from a few select cases like 40+ grawl.

Actually I see it as the evolution from being a rookie to an encounter to learning it and being able to take a more offensive setup. I started my solo Lupi practice going dolyak signet, endure pain, signet of fury. Then I took the signet, discipline banner and fury signet. Then I dropped the dolyak signet and went full DPS for great justice, disc banner and fury signet. I also changed from furious speed to using hylek poison. I adapted my rotations to maximise my dps but to give myself just enough damage mitigation when it was needed. A game where there is a skill curve where you can go more DPS the more familiar you are with a fight is good. Try soloing hunter/crusher in Arah too, you might want shake it off, warhorn and/or signet of stamina to get rid of the immobilise, but the more familiar you get with it, the less defensive skills you can take until you just dodge the immobilise arrow, or just time your whirlwind so you do it while immobilised to dodge the crush.

Everyone who thinks what we got as dungeons in GW2 is fun and exciting must be new to the world of MMO dungeoneering.

Many games have flaws, but the combination of:

- buff stacking in a limited area
- no aggro mechanic for encounters
- no dedicated healing needed
- self-sufficient healing for classes
- zero mob AI
- bugging out mobs in corners
- abusive skills (fgs)
- easy combat rezzing for everyone (esp. down state)
- no collision
- reflecting full mob damage
- dodging (100% dmg avoidance + immunity)
- etc

just makes the dungeon experience in this game abysmally bad. It is the worst teamplay I have ever seen in a MMO in all my many years. It is why this area of GW2 is so disappointing.

If you like dungeons in GW2, you are not a player looking for challenges. You are looking for repetition, a one trick pony for everything.

Boooooring.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Everyone who thinks what we got as dungeons in GW2 is fun and exciting must be new to the world of MMO dungeoneering.

Many games have flaws, but the combination of:

- buff stacking in a limited area
- no aggro mechanic for encounters
- no dedicated healing needed
- self-sufficient healing for classes
- zero mob AI
- bugging out mobs in corners
- abusive skills (fgs)
- easy combat rezzing for everyone (esp. down state)
- no collision
- reflecting full mob damage
- dodging (100% dmg avoidance + immunity)
- etc

just makes the dungeon experience in this game abysmally bad. It is the worst teamplay I have ever seen in a MMO in all my many years. It is why this area of GW2 is so disappointing.

If you like dungeons in GW2, you are not a player looking for challenges. You are looking for repetition, a one trick pony for everything.

Boooooring.

It’s the “everyone wins”, “I PLAY HOW I WANT” model.

- buff stacking in a limited area

I agree, encouraging people to mindlessly kite in circles is clearly the kind of complex gameplay we want to promote.

- no aggro mechanic for encounters

Lupicus, Mossman, Archdiviner, Svanir Shaman, Champion Ettin, Slave Driver, COE boon golem, etc.

Lupicus drains squishies, Mossman, archdiviner, Ettin, shaman go for the tankiest player, slave driver goes for the highest DPS, coe golem goes for squishies.

- no dedicated healing needed

guess what, it’s because most people don’t like playing healers

- self-sufficient healing for classes

in order to not require a class hardly anyone likes playing

- zero mob AI

incorrect again

- bugging out mobs in corners

need examples

- abusive skills (fgs)

urgently needs fixing

- easy combat rezzing for everyone (esp. down state)

so easy people get downed trying to res team mates

- no collision

prevents trolling in pvp/wvw

- reflecting full mob damage

and yet most people still dont do it

- dodging (100% dmg avoidance + immunity)

dodging a flaw? top lel m8

If you like dungeons in GW2, you are not a player looking for challenges. You are looking for repetition, a one trick pony for everything.

I like doing them solo or low man. I am looking for challenge.

I’m pretty sure you don’t even play the game, why do you even post? Nobody wants to read you complaining about things that aren’t even true

maha.7902:

- dodging (100% dmg avoidance + immunity)

dodging a flaw? top lel m8

Dodging in this game is probably the biggest flaw of them all. Nothing funny about that.
A free way to neglect any kind of damage every few seconds at any place no matter of character build? Good luck designing any engaging content with this mechanic in game…

maha.7902:

Come to think of it I can’t think of one example of new content that was added that didn’t at least experiment with stack-busting mechanics. This might be exactly what ArenaNet is planning, hope so.

Your average player will weep a thousand tears and your elite will blaze through it like they always did, always intended and always will.

One day, if you all keep asking for it, ArenaNet will get a “good” anti-stacking mechanic, and while we will mitigate it through superior skill, dodges and other sources, your average player/pug will not be able to get past it. They’ll wipe and wipe and wipe. And then they’ll complain that the game doesn’t let them stack.

Be careful what you wish for.

Did you not play any of the Living Story? I mean how many complaints did you hear that people couldn’t just stack and LoS the Knights or Scarlet’s holograms?

Can you imagine the complaining if you could just all stack in one corner of Scarlet’s airship and auto-attack all the holograms in all phases to victory?

I mean this is pretty unique to GW2, being able to glitch out AI by stacking or LoSing the few mobs that can’t be skipped. Imagine a WoW or Rift raid in which all that was necessary was to huddle in a specific corner and press ‘1’ over and over.

You’re seriously underestimating how many players enjoy challenges in this, or any other game. It’s actually bordering on insulting.

One of the most popular temporary content in LS1 was the Queen’s Gauntlet (which is actually set to come back shortly). This was also one of the most challenging content for solo players in the game.

The Marionette was another extremely good example of how this can work. I don’t think I saw one complaint on the forums (which is amazing) about not being able to simply stack and LoS their way through to the end. Your ‘average’ player loved it because it required more than just standing stacked in a specific spot to win.

So I don’t need to be careful of wishing for more varied and challenging encounters, ArenaNet has been adding exactly that since shortly after launch. We just wish for more.

It’s been said Before… IMO the character would take up physicals pace, I think u call it collision here (so that u cannot run straight THROUGH other ppl). The space could be be fairly small and the same for all races. This could be applied in all explorable maps… That would make a Group work more like in real Life (especcially i Zergs) and demand more tactics in order to deal with some “stackable content”. To prevent ppl from blocking passages u could simply keep the “physical space” low enough to e able to jump over. Standing ontop of each other should not be possible.

In cities or other non-combt areas whwre u have crowded bank-places, vendors etc… this could be “turned off”.

Dodging in this game is probably the biggest flaw of them all. Nothing funny about that.
A free way to neglect any kind of damage every few seconds at any place no matter of character build? Good luck designing any engaging content with this mechanic in game…

There is already engaging content in this game with dodging present.

Did you not play any of the Living Story? I mean how many complaints did you hear that people couldn’t just stack and LoS the Knights or Scarlet’s holograms?
Can you imagine the complaining if you could just all stack in one corner of Scarlet’s airship and auto-attack all the holograms in all phases to victory?

They complained they couldn’t just brain afk Teq, Wurm, Marionette, etc.

People said it was too hard yet all they require is rubbing your two brain cells together. People still complain Teq and Wurm are too hard. People have literally complained about it for months.

I mean this is pretty unique to GW2, being able to glitch out AI by stacking or LoSing the few mobs that can’t be skipped. Imagine a WoW or Rift raid in which all that was necessary was to huddle in a specific corner and press ‘1’ over and over.

Give me an example of stacking glitching the AI.

Now go to Arah, LoS the hunter and crusher behind a corner and “press 1 over and over”. I’ll even do it with you.

One of the most popular temporary content in LS1 was the Queen’s Gauntlet (which is actually set to come back shortly). This was also one of the most challenging content for solo players in the game.

lol.

Soloing Arah, soloing bosses or instances at level 79 Fractals, soloing open world bosses/champions. That is challenging content, not the joke’s gauntlet.

The Marionette was another extremely good example of how this can work. I don’t think I saw one complaint on the forums (which is amazing) about not being able to simply stack and LoS their way through to the end. Your ‘average’ player loved it because it required more than just standing stacked in a specific spot to win.

I don’t think you understand how many times this event failed because your average player is terrible and wasn’t willing to do any more than 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1. The worst bit is we couldn’t even carry, if you got a group of weak players (happened all the time) on a warden it would repeatedly fail.

So I don’t need to be careful of wishing for more varied and challenging encounters, ArenaNet has been adding exactly that since shortly after launch. We just wish for more.

No. You wish for more. I wish for more.

Your average player is incapable of doing it. You literally need a herculean effort by everyone in the map to communicate the strategies every single attempt and then to hope to god that you can get in to a warden with the bad players so you can carry it. Otherwise you’re doomed to fail. The player base can’t handle content outside of pressing 1 against harmless champions in open world.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

… if we can’t come up with ideas, then how do we expect Anet to come up with ideas?

Hmm, they’re supposed to be the ones good at this, they’re game designers that do it for a living.

To be honest the solution is simple which is improved AI, I won’t get specific since it’s not like i’m being paid for this but a general direction is just to look and analyze the AI of many action games that are known for their encounters.

Why won’t anet do this? Costly to develop. They’re sellouts; after the game is released they will only spend funds on tweaking (and LS – lol, they won’t touch fundamental mechanics) and will not do something this big to AI until it directly relates to their bank balance dipping. I say “big” because I assume they would need to rebalance mobs, or as a start apply it slowly starting with new content, dungeons, etc. The question is basically why invest in something that doesn’t provide as much returns as shoulder pads/gloves/helms?

Another reason may be because many people especially those who only play mmos will not grasp the mechanics of an action game (active defense and offense) no matter how easy it is and this would cut their profits.

Also anet seems to wholeheartedly hate the dungeon community which craves for smarter and engaging encounters. They don’t even tell us in the patch notes what has changed physically.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Everyone who thinks what we got as dungeons in GW2 is fun and exciting must be new to the world of MMO dungeoneering.

Many games have flaws, but the combination of:

- buff stacking in a limited area
- no aggro mechanic for encounters
- no dedicated healing needed
- self-sufficient healing for classes
- zero mob AI
- bugging out mobs in corners
- abusive skills (fgs)
- easy combat rezzing for everyone (esp. down state)
- no collision
- reflecting full mob damage
- dodging (100% dmg avoidance + immunity)
- etc

just makes the dungeon experience in this game abysmally bad. It is the worst teamplay I have ever seen in a MMO in all my many years. It is why this area of GW2 is so disappointing.

If you like dungeons in GW2, you are not a player looking for challenges. You are looking for repetition, a one trick pony for everything.

Boooooring.

many of the things you are talking about wouldnt make combat deeper, it would make it less deep.
As much as people complain about stacking, it essentially rebirths the trinity.
Mob control aka tanking
everyone standing in one spot means the monster is attacking predictably,
Healing/support: now your heals hit everyone, which actually makes it worth it to heal, you can now give AOE protection AOE aegis, regen, multiple heals, etc
DPS yup, its there.

Let me tell you the truth, healing is not deep, healing takes inately less skill than predicting/reacting to what the enemy is doing like most of GW2 support/dodging. healing is either doing it after it is already done, ordoing it constantly. It allows every other player to play less skilled.

Tanking, i will say tanking can be deep, depending on the execution, however, tanking makes everyone else playing a lot less deep, embarrasingly so.

having to buff in certain areas actually tends to make it more deep, If people didnt stack 100% of the time you would have to consider timing, gathering at key times, surviving in key times, etc.

If simple aggro mechanics exist, they will be abused, the entire stacking phonemenon is essentially abuse of aggro mechanics. “we can make you stand here in the worst situation possible”

Your hatred of dodge doesnt really make sense, negating damage that you know is coming is not easier than totally negating all dmg by being the DPS who can stand where he will never get hit, and do damage.

let me be clear, stacking at all is not bad, its something you should do at times, and at others you change it up. it can be something you can do more, if your team is built for it, and reactive, but right now, its too easy for too many encounters. monsters attack too slowly, and dont have a lot of skills that can handle people doing this.

I still think every attack should be herd-hitting in the area affected by the animation, if it’s not already.

Directional “Damage throttles” prevent players from attacking in the throttled direction if they want to actually do damage, and having a situational and directional damage throttle is not at all comparable to universal ‘damage throttles’ like the nerf to ferocity – after all, you can do the same amount of damage

I think having monsters wipe entire parties in the time it would normally take them to down a single person, and not go down quickly unless someone actually gets behind or to the sides of the enemy would quickly force players to stop ‘stacking’ themselves – it goes from ‘efficient and safe’ to ‘tedious and suicidal’.

Casual/less skilled players would hardly be affected at all, though, simply because they tend to not be able to stand on top of each other anyway, so they wouldn’t notice that the enemies are multihitting them when they stand in the same place (Which they aren’t doing anyway), and since they attack from whatever direction they happen to be facing, would still be doing full damage

I think monsters that prefer attacking from range should have their pathing fixed so that they will not approach into melee range if they cannot get a safe spot to engage at range (But not run if the foe approaches them, to avoid obnoxious ‘chase the enemy down’ events)

I further suggest that bosses that use ranged attacks get a new skill: “Chicken Dance”
If there are no players it can safely engage from its favored range, it will use this skill: Conditions are cured, it begins slowly regenerating health – and, it starts silly, taunting dances and sings stanzas from obnoxious songs until the players come out of hiding/corner camping again.

Ah yes, the good ole “dredge” argument. For those who are unaffiliated, the dredge argument goes like this:

“The dredge are hated because they are harder than the other factions in the game. Therefore, the harder you make enemies in the game, the more like dredge they become, and thus the more people will hate the game”.

This is an argument for complacency and the status quo. But, one must look hard at the game, and ask the question as to why people have this expectation in the first place. The majority of the game is full of rather simplistic enemy groups that have no active or passive defenses, and whose total strategy can be summarized in 3 words or less under their health bar. Players are people, despite what all the cheerleaders who rejected me in highschool said. And as people, they recognize patterns on a subconscious level, and develop a set of expectations based on those patterns.

It is ultimately a self reinforcing problem: people expect the game to be easy and simple because it is easy and simple, and thus embrace a lazier playstyle. Were the game designed differently, players would develop different expectations, and thus wouldn’t have an issue with dredge.

In general, my arguments against complacency usually goes as follows: Don’t be like that, then.

And now, to respond to players and stuff!

Kaiyanwan.8521:

IMO, stacking is the reason why the DEVs don’t ever give us new dungeon content.

It trivializes all dungeon content. It also makes fights incredibly boring. Stack in that corner, burn down the boss.
The DEVs seem to not be able to work around it, so they just don’t introduce more dungeons. Seriously, one path replacing an older one in what, 19 monthes now?

I think this was, in part, problems with dissolving the dungeon team and a focus of different priorities rather than it was about being unable to solve the problem. There were other issues around at that time, and TA-A attempted to solve these via gates and movement challenges. Many of the boss mechanics in that dungeon attempt to encourage all players being in melee range. Incidentally, this also encourages stacking to a large degree.

Also, there are many additions via fractals, which is basically a randomized dungeon with scaling difficulty.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This is an ultra casual game focused on looks and armor skins, so of course the PvE is going to be shallow and unrewarding. Some people like the game just the way it is, OP. No need to make the game “harder” because it’s not the right environment for it.

When I want my PvE fix, I go to games which do it better.

Hence, why I try to avoid draconian changes. I… think I’m using that word right. With the debate on the casual-ity level of the game aside, the issue with stacking is both in aesthetics and entertainment, and these aren’t without consequence.

Entertainment: A lot of people find the whole stacking thing boring and repetitive. Now, while I find many people who like stacking, this is usually because of reasons tangentially related: they like high DPS, they like the feeling of power, they like the ease at which it is done, and they like the insurance of being less likely to be sabotaged by n00bs. While this can all be accomplished without everyone standing on one spot, gathering together is just so much easier mentally.

The complaints with stacking are also a different issue. Boring and repetition comes from a lack of intricacy in enemy design, which encourages all encounters to be handled the exact same way. This simplicity betrays the game, since repetition is boring, and bored people go somewhere else to be entertained.

Aesthetics: Without the identity and visible agency, players find themselves awash in a sea of unrecognizeable polygons and flashy effects. They don’t look like a hero, they don’t feel like a hero, and they don’t feel engaged. This also makes a large portion of the game ugly and unappealing to look at. From an outside perspective, watching the game looks like this

a)Players stand in a spot
b)Enemies come around a corner
c)Big splash of blinding particle effects and damage splats
d)Everything is dead, and I have learned nothing about the game

This discourages future purchases from prospective buyers. It is a double whammy on the wallet: players get bored and leave, and new players don’t want to join up. So, while stacking isn’t an issue of functionality, it is an issue that Anet should be concerned about nonetheless.

CETheLucid.3964:

Hm. I was expecting some manner of BS or doublespeak. Maybe I’ll pry it out of you yet!

You sure do post a lot about a game you find stale and boring. I find that’s a trend with folks who think as you do.

There’s something you like about this game, something that brings you back here, or else you wouldn’t bother.

Friends? Or do you really just enjoy the forums that much?

Little secret: I’m not actually playing the game right now either. Do not think too negatively of this: talking about the game and playing the game are two different things. Sometimes, people want to do only one or the other. For many reasons, really.

While I understand the criticisms of stacking, I have considerations about the calls to “eliminate” or “fix” stacking, which are often, “I don’t like it, it needs to go away.” The main consideration is that I like synergy in games. I loved it in GW, I like it in GW2. Synergy in games comes from the interplay of various character skills and abilities as they interact with each other. In GW2, such synergy between characters always happens at short range. Always. Eliminate stacking, and you eliminate synergy, which severely restricts coordination and teamwork. I do not find this to be a desirable outcome.

Nor would it be desirable to change the synergistic mechanics to make them usable at greater ranges. Everyone free-lancing and kiting at range may be a desired play-style for some folks, but teamwork should require some effort. Greater range buffs and heals would remove the proximity requirement for coordination, and I don’t think that’s a good idea. Being able to always get maximum benefit from the team play mechanics is not good design whether that happens at close or at greater ranges.

Maybe I don’t often repeat the on-farm dungeons that everyone seems to base their comments against stacking on. My experience in dungeons has been that while there are similarities in mob design, and some dungeon bosses seem like big sacks of health that don’t do much, there are other bosses that punish the mindless stacking that gets folks upset. So, I’m not sure it’s fair to base an evaluation of stacking on bosses with simple AI or who lack AoE — because they aren’t all that way.

That’s not to say that AI in general couldn’t use improvement. However, taking away existing farm paths or turning them into harder paths that get under-utilized (TA AP, I’m looking at you) is not a good idea. Leave these paths alone, and generate new dungeons with different mechanics, and which might require some variety in tactics. Half the problem with dungeons is habituation anyway, so adding new paths would allow for both new challenges and new mechanics.

As long as there is no reward for the risk, nothing will change. Players will farm the easy pathes for the gold or tokens and that’s it.

Without a motivation, people will just ignore more challenging content. But that is a different discussion.

The WvW segment isn’t directed at anybody in particular. Mostly because I can’t really find a good person to quote for this.

Now, while stacking in WvW has the similar aesthetic and entertainment issues as PVE, it is a bit different. For one, the engagement of WvW is much higher than PVE, so that isn’t as much of an issue. For two, mass war isn’t going to be particularly organized or pretty.

But… I chose not to talk about it here, for a very simple reason: WvW has a series of constraints and issues that make it so fixing stacking and zerg balls by proxy is often an issue of hardware limitations and class balance. Things like player collision in PVP, AoE damage limits, buff limits, and culling have issues how fast the servers can process information, and how quickly it can be sent to players, and how well player computers can process information.

Running around in PVE doesn’t have this problem. And now for something completely unrelated.

Sartharina.3542:

I’d rather have all NPC attacks be cleaving at point-of-impact, just like all/most player attacks seem to be – If you’re all in the same place, you all get hit equally. There don’t have to be particularly devastating, dedicated “Stack Breakers”. Having anyone who’kittenbox is in the same space as an attack box get hit is a simple, intuitive fix to the problem that puts NPCs on the same footing as PCs. Ranged weapons should only pierce a distance equal to the projectile’s range, though, unless full piercing is a trait of the boss. It might still result in player “Clustering” for boon and res purposes, but they’d probably actively avoid trying to be in the exact same spot to avoid focused but still-omnihitting enemy attacks.

I do like that ranged limit idea as well.

In the overworld you don’t see many cleaving attacks, but in dungeons you’ll find that the majority of enemy attacks are, indeed, cleaves. The issue lies in frequency: enemies have slow attacks, meaning that they are easily dodged/blocked/blinded and many times even face tanked.

If the attack frequency was higher, then stacking in one spot would be more dangerous. However, doing this with enemies below champion rank can be quite difficult, as these enemies have a habit of swarming players, and giving them too much of a stack breaker would just mean instant death to meleers in general, and not just stacking. It’s hard to encircle an army, after all.

AlexEBT.7240:

At the end of the day these dungeons must be run multiple times. Can you see yourself running molten facilty and aetherblade retreat, every day, multiple paths for tokens or money and not get fed up with the mechanics at one point? Cause that’s what happened with the aether path :P

The Aetherblade is my favorite dungeon path, and I like to run it for fun on occasion. I usually encounter a different issue with that dungeon, and it isn’t because players are any more bored with the path than any other.

The Aether path, in all it difficulty, doesn’t get taught or run that frequently. Because of this, any random group that you make on the Aetherpath is going to be full of newbs and n00bs who are undergeared, don’t know much about game mechanics, don’t know much about dungeons, and have never had to follow directions before. Because of this, the players have a bad and slow time in that dungeon, and carry that bad experience with them wherever they go.

Repeat this with pretty much any hard path, and you get a frightened population that regale each other with more terrifying tales. I went and got dungeon master recently, and I got it by actually doing the Arah paths myself. I didn’t want to buy the paths, because I am a MAN despite what all the cheerleaders in highschool who rejected me say. For someone who was new to the dungeon, it was grueling because all the people who are experienced with the dungeon cut themselves off from the rest of the playerbase, leaving only a largely inexperienced group who are undergeared and unprepared for what is to come. In my first runs of these paths, I actually found myself teaching the path to the rest of my n00b armada, because I was the only guy who read a guide and watched videos on what to do.

That said, I think a big distinction needs to be made between good mechanics, and bad ones. Something like the dredge fractal is a pain, because it is poorly designed overall. This poor design incidentally also discourages stacking, and so people come to relate the idea of anti-stacking mechanics with imposing, oppressive game mechanics. But, if someone can make things merely interesting, and not just oppressive, then the community’s reception will be much more favorable.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Everyone who thinks what we got as dungeons in GW2 is fun and exciting must be new to the world of MMO dungeoneering.

Many games have flaws, but the combination of:

- buff stacking in a limited area
- no aggro mechanic for encounters
- no dedicated healing needed
- self-sufficient healing for classes
- zero mob AI
- bugging out mobs in corners
- abusive skills (fgs)
- easy combat rezzing for everyone (esp. down state)
- no collision
- reflecting full mob damage
- dodging (100% dmg avoidance + immunity)
- etc

just makes the dungeon experience in this game abysmally bad. It is the worst teamplay I have ever seen in a MMO in all my many years. It is why this area of GW2 is so disappointing.

If you like dungeons in GW2, you are not a player looking for challenges. You are looking for repetition, a one trick pony for everything.

Boooooring.

It’s the “everyone wins”, “I PLAY HOW I WANT” model.

Funny, because you are perhaps wishing for people to play the way you want too (trinity mechanics and the such). Badly used argument, all the time-as if “playing how you want” was inherently bad (nothing wrong about following metas-these players are also playing how they want, which is aiming for efficient gameplay-and nothing wrong about totally ignoring metas in this game, which I am rather happy about.)

Besides, there’s room for both freedom of play and metas in this game. Whether you like what has become of the PvE meta or not, there IS skill synergy-and thus “teamplay”-between the players involved, and this without the so-called trinity.

I am honestly not a fan of stacking myself, but it certainly works, and is a good manifestation of GW2 teamplay-perhaps it makes teamplay a bit easy and simpler once you get used to it, but teamplay IS invoved at the “higher levels” of good stacking groups.

(One of the team mechanics I dislike is how combo fields are easily overridden by others who were placed first-while this makes it “balanced”, it also prevents some combo fields to be used in most situations if they don’t contribute to DPS, from an efficiency standpoint. A player may lay an otherwise useful field but may actually be “hampering” the group by it not being an offensive or useful enough field-of course you should be aware of which fields to lay and when, but with some weapons and Profession combinations, it’s harder to do (the old Guardian Hammer, for instance, even though I don’t use the weapon enough myself). Clearly I would prefer that all fields were effective at the same time, though this would probably make the game too easy and is also probably not feasible given the way the current system works.)

What I would define as oppressive would be any mechanic that exists to discourage melee combat overall. Thus, where the difficulty in removing stacking is. With small bosses we get players standing on each other by default. It is difficult to come up with an option where all the players can melee an enemy, but not be standing on top of each other while they do it. It is also difficult to do this in a non-punishing manner. Heck, even the ideas of player based damage auras end up discouraging at least one player from meleeing.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Maybe I don’t often repeat the on-farm dungeons that everyone seems to base their comments against stacking on. My experience in dungeons has been that while there are similarities in mob design, and some dungeon bosses seem like big sacks of health that don’t do much, there are other bosses that punish the mindless stacking that gets folks upset. So, I’m not sure it’s fair to base an evaluation of stacking on bosses with simple AI or who lack AoE — because they aren’t all that way.

That’s not to say that AI in general couldn’t use improvement. However, taking away existing farm paths or turning them into harder paths that get under-utilized (TA AP, I’m looking at you) is not a good idea. Leave these paths alone, and generate new dungeons with different mechanics, and which might require some variety in tactics. Half the problem with dungeons is habituation anyway, so adding new paths would allow for both new challenges and new mechanics.

Stacking is an issue where it is, and not an issue where it isn’t. There is very little reason to fix stacking in places where people aren’t stacking. Abridged the quote to save space.

While TA Spider path was the least run dungeon in the game, you do bring up a conflict that exists in the game right now: drastically different scales of difficulty. Players, wanting to easily acquire money, will take the path to least resistance by default. This means that they will run paths where the simplest tactics work, and avoid places where it doesn’t.

Many game designers embrace this philosophy, and begin something that I call farm creep. Like power creep or spectacle creep, farm creep is the tendency for developers, wanting players to always like new content or always play new content, will constantly make new content that has more and higher rewards than ever before. When this is done over and over again, you end up with a great divide between rewards of different content. This, of course, leads to a lack of diversity in gameplay and massive inflation.

Excluding content en masse from tweaks in enemy behavior doesn’t solve the problems that stacking causes. Instead, this just causes a new problem of difficulty shock in new content. Thus, to resolve the issue, the changes need to be done on a nearly global scale to the game. And yes, by making things in the game require more actions and more coordination, the game will become more difficult overall.

What must also be stated is that I am not against raising rewards to compensate for this difficulty. In fact, that seems like a proper way to balance the discouragement of difficulty with the incentive of monetary compensation.

maha.7902:

stuff

I always have a hard time debating someone when I suspect they are being disingenuous. Now, I can argue about all the different ways someone can handle, build about, and expand upon all of the different ideas I have, but ultimately this is all worthless if that someone refuses to be reasonable. There is a very unfortunate tendency I see all the time, where when given a notion, someone will be so argumentative that they will instantly dismiss ideas by assuming the worst possible circumstances possible.

For example, lets take the directionally based damage reduction idea. You claim it is just a damage throttle.

#1: Enemies don’t have rigid HP upon design. An enemy with directionally based defenses can have their HP adjusted freely upon creation, and the neutral point for a 90% reduction in defenses is at 82% HP, assuming all players do only direct damage.

#2: These enemies won’t reduce condition damage, meaning that if focused on a condition based player via a simplistic aggro system, then there wouldn’t be any damage reduction for that group.

#3: The frequency of enemies in content is variable upon design, as well. So, if one wants to encourage better tactics, they can have fewer enemies along the path if these enemies have a direction damage reduction component.

#4: CC can be effect against these enemies to ensure maximum damage. In particular fear effects on immobilized or cornered enemies will force their back to be turned to all players, allowing all players to have maximum damage against this enemy.

#5: These enemies can have attack animations of variable length, encouraging players to rotate around the enemy when they do a large telegraph, allowing maximum damage for all players should the one who drew aggro be smart enough to go around to the enemy’s rear.

#6: These enemies can have a built in weakness to CC effects, such as making stuns and knockdowns last twice as long. This would encourage frequent use of CC to maximize damage by the singled out player.

#7: Directional damage reduction can also be direction damage increase. Instead of a 10/100 split, you can have a 10/200 split on enemies with marginally higher HP, allowing for greater overall kill speed than regular enemies with basic tactics. This causes big, flashy numbers, and people like seeing big numbers.

#8: I have yet to hear an objective argument against slightly longer kill times. Just people complaining that they don’t like it, and arbitrarily enforcing their distaste on X circumstance. Hell, anything can be considered a damage throttle if it forces you to dodge or heal, and thus stop attacking for awhile. For now, I will assert that directionally based damage reduction encouraging smarter positioning against enemies is an engaging mechanic that will make the game more fun. Proof of this is the fact that you have to actually do something to counteract this defense.

The conflict about integrity is whether you didn’t say these things because you didn’t think of them, or because you didn’t want to bother bringing it up. For now, I demand proof that you are actually worthy of talking to, otherwise I encourage everyone in this thread to just ignore you.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

As long as there is no reward for the risk, nothing will change. Players will farm the easy pathes for the gold or tokens and that’s it.

Without a motivation, people will just ignore more challenging content. But that is a different discussion.

And if we get rid of the ‘easy’ paths, or kick them up to near the level of the harder paths? What then?

Kaiyanwan explains small group content in GW2:

In this RPG, the dungeon meta is melee stacking as a result of flawed game mechanics.
This literally tells people that like small group content and like to play the following roles (RPG normally means Role Playing Game):

- ranged melee characters (archers) to kitten off
- ranged caster characters (like most casters) to kitten off
- support classes to kitten off
- healers to kitten off
- tanks to kitten off
- mobility centric characters to kitten off

- rogue like melee characters (melee dps hurr durr): Welcome to a game made only for you, as all classes play this way in small group content (unless you rolled a necro, then – you get the picture – kitten off)!

What we now have left in the game are those countless WoW rogues who could never find a tank and a healer to carry them through the content, telling everyone, that noone likes to play a healer or a tank anyway (which is a lie), just because they don’t like to do so. They are super happy, that now they can solo the group content they could not get into in other games, because the content was actually designed for a group (yeah I know, mind blown).

So unless you like to play a rogue like melee character, you will have a hard time to enjoy GW2 small group content.

But if you like to play a rogue like melee character, it will be heaven and you might have a hard time to understand, that this is not fun for everyone. RPG stands for Rogue Playing Game after all.

I hope this helped to clarify the fronts on this topic.

You are welcome.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

- snip -

Funny, real combat medics carry guns and they’re just as effective!
Surgeons stay in camp

We get it, you want WoW or some generic mmorpg reskinned.

Bread.7516:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

- snip -

Funny, real combat medics carry guns and they’re just as effective!
Surgeons stay in camp

That literally made no sense at all. In no context to what I said or on the topic.

Did I say that people who like to play healers should not be allowed to do damage? Or use a weapon?
Or do you want to tell me, that it would be a good idea if you take critical damage, to visit a player that plays a healer in a virtual hospital, so that he can fix you for several hours so that you can play again, but only if you have insurance or mighty amounts of gold?

Or do you want to make comparsions from reality to a fantasy video game with fireballs, dragons and instant healing.

I have no idea…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Bread.7516:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

- snip -

Funny, real combat medics carry guns and they’re just as effective!
Surgeons stay in camp

That literally made no sense at all. In no context to what I said or on the topic.

Did I say that people who like to play healers should not be allowed to do damage? Or use a weapon?
Or do you want to tell me, that it would be a good idea if you take critical damage, to visit a player that plays a healer in a virtual hospital, so that he can fix you for several hours so that you can play again, but only if you have insurance or mighty amounts of gold?

Or do you want to make comparsions from reality to a fantasy video game with fireballs, dragons and instant healing.

I have no idea…

“support” in this game (meta) is not about stats or being a dedicated healer/support, it’s about utility. That’s pretty much the point. Yet there are classes that have defined roles as “support” using utilities and etc and are still as effective in combat.

Check action games, check how real combat works whether military team compositions or even just as minor as martial arts. no one “tanks”

Bread.7516:

“support” in this game (meta) is not about stats or being a dedicated healer/support, it’s about utility. That’s pretty much the point.

Check action games, check how real combat works whether military team compositions or even just as minor as martial arts. no one “tanks”

How about tanks? You know the real ones that can take a hit.

Have you ever seen a football game?

Martial arts? Nothing is more important than to have a good guard.
Or Boxing? Yeah, being tanky is not important at all I guess in the heavier tiers.

But yeah, this is a real life comparsion, which is ridiculous in regards that we are discussing a fantasy game where you can shoot lasers out of a greatsword the size of a tree…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Bread.7516:

“support” in this game (meta) is not about stats or being a dedicated healer/support, it’s about utility. That’s pretty much the point.

Check action games, check how real combat works whether military team compositions or even just as minor as martial arts. no one “tanks”

How about tanks? You know the real ones that can take a hit.

Have you ever seen a football game?

Martial arts? Nothing is more important to have a good guard.
Or Boxing? Yeah, being tanky is not important at all I guess in the heavier tiers.

But yeah, this is a real life comparsion, which is ridiculous in regards that we are discussing a fantasy game where you can shoot lasers out of a greatsword the size of a tree…

Tanks are mainly mobile artillery, you only use it as a bullet shield if you really need it since they can have anti-armor equipment.

Martial arts, good guard yeah, but without any real power behind it you’re as good as meat. Dedicated tanks in typical mmorpgs do not do any significant damage. FYI boxing is a sport, good luck clinching your enemy when he’s about to stick a finger in your eye and taking it out. All martial artists have speed power and precision which is the main point of it; to neutralize your opponent asap.

“but this is not IRL” is the dumbest argument that is being repeated. Devs made a direction which is action-like, clearly advertised and stated. Action-like games try to touch on reality.

Ex: Monster Hunter franchise – it’s made of fictional monsters yet devs spend so much time relating their evolution and ecology to make sense. They fix hitboxes to be intuitive to how it should affect your player similar to REAL LIFE physics even if you carry a GS 2-3x your size.

This is an action-like game, expect action game mechanics.

So tanks tank, when they are needed to do so? Sounds like a tank to me.

Good luck poking an eye with those big boxing gloves on.

Reality and games, how about you have to uninstall the game after dying once. GW2 is not touching reality in any context. Be it gameplay, physics, nutrition, or crafting.

RL arguements won’t work, most people play games because they are sort of tired of reality at the very moment.

Fireballs, clones you can blow up, fiery greatswords, lightning whip, giant dragons, leveling, etc = not reality

Paying taxes, work, love, war, family, death, etc. = reality

And I still do not understand why you think your argument makes stacking in a corner any better for the gameplay experience.

You know, I am really not sure how class roles fit in to stacking…

Anyway, another idea I had for an anti-stacking mob is an enemy who only takes direct damage when his target is at range. When his target is in melee range, he just puts up a barrier and melee attacks from it. This enemy would be, by default, a ranged mob with a high fixation aggroing by first sight, and he would attack via a brightly colored channel attack, so everyone knows who he is targeting. This one would be group content only, but of course the shield goes down when CCed.

Another idea: a mob that has a short range AoE defense buff that they only apply to each other. By themselves, they would be fairly standard enemies. But, if you get them all together into a ball, then their buffs stack, and they become much more difficult. The idea is that these mobs are deployed in formations, and only begin chasing players once they are in melee range, so at the beginning they are only half buffed and you want to try and split their formation. But if cornered they become much more difficult. You’d have to use pulls/knocbacks to move them, or in worst cases splitting up so different aggros will follow you by default. Though I do fear that this idea might be a bit too difficult for standard enemies…

Or, for more just utterly stupid chaos, an enemy that, once dead, creates an AoE short duration knockback explosion 2 seconds after death. That way, it is encouraged to either knock away enemies before they die, or to move away from their corpses after killing them. Of course, what would be funny is if these explosions also damaged their friendlies, so if things go right/wrong there would be this cascade of explosions that knock players and enemies around like ping pong balls. The idea is that, since there will be a bunch of enemies that arrive sequentially, after the first kill or two the stack will eventually devolve into more panic as people run in different directions to avoid the explosions. The “friendly fire” on this attack scatters enemies, making the fight more dynamic and unpredictable.

Unfortunately, that’s all I have for now. I was trying to think of an idea involving quantum physics/ the weeping angels, but I couldn’t really think of a system that discouraged stacking with that.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Kaiyanwan explains small group content in GW2:

In this RPG, the dungeon meta is melee stacking as a result of flawed game mechanics.
This literally tells people that like small group content and like to play the following roles (RPG normally means Role Playing Game):

- ranged melee characters (archers) to kitten off
- ranged caster characters (like most casters) to kitten off
- support classes to kitten off
- healers to kitten off
- tanks to kitten off
- mobility centric characters to kitten off

- rogue like melee characters (melee dps hurr durr): Welcome to a game made only for you, as all classes play this way in small group content (unless you rolled a necro, then – you get the picture – kitten off)!

What we now have left in the game are those countless WoW rogues who could never find a tank and a healer to carry them through the content, telling everyone, that noone likes to play a healer or a tank anyway (which is a lie), just because they don’t like to do so. They are super happy, that now they can solo the group content they could not get into in other games, because the content was actually designed for a group (yeah I know, mind blown).

So unless you like to play a rogue like melee character, you will have a hard time to enjoy GW2 small group content.

But if you like to play a rogue like melee character, it will be heaven and you might have a hard time to understand, that this is not fun for everyone. RPG stands for Rogue Playing Game after all.

I hope this helped to clarify the fronts on this topic.

You are welcome.

Actually, I’ve found the game does support fun, multi-role encounters in group content. The problem is that Stacking is more effective due to a number of problems with enemy AI and ability design and potentially a few combat problems (Such as Melee characters not being sticky enough).

It’s possible to have fun playing a largely support-based character that multiplies the effectiveness of allies by providing boons, healing (If they have the toughness and vitality to take hits), and quick revives.

It’s possible to also have fun playing a defensive character that can mitigate and take most of the punishment dished out by enemies, and effectively ‘tank’ by either dipping into Control to keep allies safe by shutting down enemies and hauling foes off of allies, or dipping into Support to be the last guy standing and get them back on their feet as they go down as a bastion of No We Won’t Stay Dead. (Resilience is a fourth branch of the game that gets overlooked, but plays an important part – but is worthless if it doesn’t have Damage to make it a grinder against enemies, Control to make it a tank, or Support to make it a medivac)

It’s possible to have fun playing a ranged character that lets allies keep foes away while it tears enemies apart from a distance with AoEs, Combo Fields that boost ally strength, or just raw plinking away(Though this is hindered by a lack of melee stickiness. Mob collision detection could help here)

There are other playstyles as well, and the three above are broad and encompass several variations. The problem is that stacking is the most ‘optimal’, to the point of trivializing encounters beyond what the developers probably intended.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

So tanks tank, when they are needed to do so? Sounds like a tank to me.

Good luck poking an eye with those big boxing gloves on.

Reality and games, how about you have to uninstall the game after dying once. GW2 is not touching reality in any context. Be it gameplay, physics, nutrition, or crafting.

RL arguements won’t work, most people play games because they are sort of tired of reality at the very moment.

Fireballs, clones you can blow up, fiery greatswords, lightning whip, giant dragons, leveling, etc = not reality

Paying taxes, work, love, war, family, death, etc. = reality

And I still do not understand why you think your argument makes stacking in a corner any better for the gameplay experience.

Didn’t say stacking in a corner = better gameplay, im countering your arguments because all you know is generic mmorpg and you can’t see beyond the genre and general direction of combat in gw2. Could it have done better? yes ofcourse, but again there are still conceptual constraints and guidelines they have to follow.

Yes all examples of reality you provided, some games probably touches on them. During the development of counterstrike as a mod the idea of “realism” was key to it. So you may not notice it as most people ignore the details of pretty much everything, but major elements of realism are present in a lot of games.

I said real tanks are not encouraged to be used as a bullet shield due to possiblity of anti-armor. How dense can you get? You really only hear yourself.

Completely repeating the game after dying once – it;’s called a rouge-like game. They exist, they sell well. Mainstream example diablo hardcore mode. You must have not played games before 2000, even rogue-likes are coming back nowadays.

Basically you have a very narrow gaming experience and you disagree with it because of this. You dislike it mainly due to preference. You are not a versatile gamer and you didn’t do your research before buying GW2.

Again “but this isnt IRL” is probably the dumbest argument ever thrown, if that’s the case then don’t complain how 5 people can occupy the same area at the same time ignoring the laws of physics.

Oh yeah – it’s also possible to build a powerful berzerker-style warrior or aggressive and agile rogue or ranger or whatever you want that dishes out damage like nobody’s business, but can also give allies a helping hand to get back on their feet, bolster an ally, kitten and haul a monster off of a beleaguered ally to get some breathing room, and/or lay down a field to help allies be awesome.

In a traditional MMO, you need designated tanks and off-tanks with a healer support, without anyone else DARING to try to assist on those fronts under threat of Certain Death. And Healers better not even dare to hinder an enemy. The only role I found rewarding in other MMOs was that of the Tank, yet a tank lacked the ability to significantly contribute to bringing a group closer to bringing the progress bar of an enemy to completion.

Wasbunny.6531:

For those of us that actually play GW2 and have constructive ideas relating to the topic please post these. This is a great place to brainstorm ideas which could improve the game for all of us.

For those who do not play the game and therefore have no constructive input, well I would respectfully ask that you find something else to do.

Translation:

If you agree with my point of view, feel free to post. Otherwise keep quiet, especially if you don’t log in much anymore.

maha.7902:

And now remember that your average player isn’t going to have the DPS to endure the burning because they’re not optimised. People need to stop trying to think of obstacles for optimised teams, because all you’re doing is amplifying the difficulty for pugs and ramping it up to 11 while giving speed runners like a 2 second speed bump with these “anti-stacking mechanics”.

Once again, people trying to identify a problem that doesn’t exist and offering poor solutions.

Pretty much this^^

/thread

cranked.3812:

Wasbunny.6531:

For those of us that actually play GW2 and have constructive ideas relating to the topic please post these. This is a great place to brainstorm ideas which could improve the game for all of us.

For those who do not play the game and therefore have no constructive input, well I would respectfully ask that you find something else to do.

Translation:

If you agree with my point of view, feel free to post. Otherwise keep quiet, especially if you don’t log in much anymore.

Yeah you;re right I also got off topic.

Basically as to my first post – current “stack everything” is a byproduct of poor mob/boss design and not a problem in itself. Using walls and LoS conceptually is mainly used as counter-play. Stacking is usually used as a burst tactic that makes the group move as 1 unit for breaching or eliminating groups quickly (also covering all sides/windows/etc, but this isnt an FPS) – so no, i don’t believe this is a problem, rather it should be encouraged to use it for certain encounters.

The issue is that the AI scripting has no “reaction” it just follows like lemmings (recall that game if you know it).

I don’t believe that the game should radically shift directions that forces you to take damage in small increments (which is commonly suggested) or other radical anti-stack measures. Rather, I think they should focus on movement and positioning for the AI as well as give them a “play style” of some sort for each class of mobs. They can be predictable individually, but if your melee mobs behave very different from your mage or ranged mobs, then it can alter your strategy significantly.

As for bosses, just look at cofp3 (if you don’t cheese it – simple pathing fix is sufficient for this bug). This is sort of a moderately good example – take your party and see how people stack him. Our strategy was on opening we stack and approach > ele might stack while someone does a KD on his location (not prestack)> then basically full melee until next need for might stack guardian pops aegis>sometimes if u have projectile block/reflect u pop it when he throws bolas. It’s a very active scene of combat which uses stacking, active dodging and lots of support.

Bread.7516:

[cutting the useless parts in matter of this discussion]

Look, you have to read what I write to actually understand what I say.

In rogue likes you get a second, a third and a billion more chances. I was talking about never touching the game again after dying once. Yeah sure, there are sooo many games around like that (RotMG can be some fun though, if I want more challenging content than GW2).

It is obviously my lacking knowledge of computer games that makes me feel like stacking on a spot DPSing down bosses is boring.

Tanks are still tanks in military interventions, otherwise why would they use all the armor plating on them, just makes them slow and less flexible. Sure.

But yeah, maybe I have just seen it all on my long way from my c64 I bought 30 years ago and 15 years of MMOs (some of them you might have not even heard of). Maybe after everything has been there, DEVs go back to what there was in the beginning.

Standing in one spot, pushing one button. Such a success that we get a new dungeon every few monthes – NOT.

IndigoSundown.5419:

While I understand the criticisms of stacking, I have considerations about the calls to “eliminate” or “fix” stacking, which are often, “I don’t like it, it needs to go away.” The main consideration is that I like synergy in games. I loved it in GW, I like it in GW2. Synergy in games comes from the interplay of various character skills and abilities as they interact with each other. In GW2, such synergy between characters always happens at short range. Always. Eliminate stacking, and you eliminate synergy, which severely restricts coordination and teamwork. I do not find this to be a desirable outcome.

Nor would it be desirable to change the synergistic mechanics to make them usable at greater ranges. Everyone free-lancing and kiting at range may be a desired play-style for some folks, but teamwork should require some effort. Greater range buffs and heals would remove the proximity requirement for coordination, and I don’t think that’s a good idea. Being able to always get maximum benefit from the team play mechanics is not good design whether that happens at close or at greater ranges.

Maybe I don’t often repeat the on-farm dungeons that everyone seems to base their comments against stacking on. My experience in dungeons has been that while there are similarities in mob design, and some dungeon bosses seem like big sacks of health that don’t do much, there are other bosses that punish the mindless stacking that gets folks upset. So, I’m not sure it’s fair to base an evaluation of stacking on bosses with simple AI or who lack AoE — because they aren’t all that way.

That’s not to say that AI in general couldn’t use improvement. However, taking away existing farm paths or turning them into harder paths that get under-utilized (TA AP, I’m looking at you) is not a good idea. Leave these paths alone, and generate new dungeons with different mechanics, and which might require some variety in tactics. Half the problem with dungeons is habituation anyway, so adding new paths would allow for both new challenges and new mechanics.

why does everyone assume that everything people say is absolute.

I dont think any one has a problem with the idea, that stacking together at key times can be advantagous. it makes sense. The problem is when for the whole fight you are going to go in stand in one place, absorb dmg you can avoid, to win 90% of the boss fights.

Short story, stacking at times is great, and synergistic, stacking as the way to deal with everything, and eating avoidable Skills, and standing in one place even when its not to your advantage. And not needing to see or react to what the enemy is doing in order to win is lame.

As usual, this thread now features posts about being “forced” to stack and people whose reasons to be anti-stacking amount to, “I don’t like it, it needs to be taken out of the game.” The OP at least gave reasons that can be discussed and evaluated. That said…

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#3: WHAT IS WRONG WITH STACKING!?!?*

I put an asterisk there because this is a trick question. There is actually very little wrong with stacking from an objective standpoint. I’ll list them here, again in an office appropriate voice

a)It is awkward to look at. A gigantic mass of clipping polygons doesn’t make for the best presentation.

I’ve almost never seen players stacked that closely together. It might indeed be the norm, but you couldn’t prove this by me. That said, ANet seems to feel that visual clutter and massive particle blur is visually appealing, so I’m not sure that visual presentation in combat is a big concern to them.

b)It is awkward to play in. Many stacks are in tight corners, where the camera ends up zoomed up into a blob of clipped polygons, making things hard to see.

Again, I don’t see tons of this. Maybe it’s because I avoid the pseudo speed-runs practiced by the PuG community. This is an AI aggro issue, and could be ameliorated by changing the way mob following works — without introducing mechanics to force players to not use teamplay mechanics.

c) It doesn’t feel personally satisfying. As a blob, you rarely feel your personal contribution.

What I would find unsatisfying would be the game denying me the opportunity — as a matter of course — to benefit my teammates via the use of skills that: block, reflect, provide fury, provide might, provide blind, provide stability, etc. How does free-lancing actually generate a greater sense of personal contribution than using skills that actually contribute more than just one’s personal DPS?

d) With a hard time seeing enemy tells, it can be hard to truly learn or understand an encounter by just stacking.

Particle blur makes it much more difficult for me to see tells than proximity. Ommv.

And that is really it.

While some of the OP’s suggestions might have some merit on a limited basis, I am still not convinced that forcing players to regularly eschew coordination and teamwork is a good idea. And, ultimately, that’s what most suggestions to fix stacking break down to.

I’m honestly getting tempted to just record myself stacking and pressing 1 and wiping over and over again just to make a point of the fact that you don’t do that in dungeons. I’m pretty sure 99% of the time it’s four bad players mashing keys and the decent player carrying hard.

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Being able to always get maximum benefit from the team play mechanics is not good design whether that happens at close or at greater ranges.

why does everyone assume that everything people say is absolute.

Because in many cases it is? Because many posters in the endless debate about zerker, stacking, etc. break down to, “Stacking needs to die in fire!”

I dont think any one has a problem with the idea, that stacking together at key times can be advantagous. it makes sense. The problem is when for the whole fight you are going to go in stand in one place, absorb dmg you can avoid, to win 90% of the boss fights.

Short story, stacking at times is great, and synergistic, stacking as the way to deal with everything, and eating avoidable Skills, and standing in one place even when its not to your advantage. And not needing to see or react to what the enemy is doing in order to win is lame.

As you can see by the above line I’ve culled from the post that you quoted, I am not in favor of 100% uptime for team-play mechanics. I just don’t see that forcing people to solo range or solo melee regularly is better than what we have now.

Boss phases can be used regardless of stacking. AI can be tweaked to prevent overly simplistic encounters. What I’m against are suggestions like, “Make all boss melee attacks cleave, and one-shot the entire party if they’re stacked.”