Guild Wars 2

Fortus.6175:

I believe Stealth should be good enough, no need to give it so many good things on top of that while not having ANY way of dealing with it other than swinging your sword in the air

Maybe Fortus. But the “stealth” ability is in the game – and works the way it does – because of a very specific profession, lets not kid ourselves.

The Thief profession was implemented because its game play style caters to a very specific group of MMO players. Rogues, Thief, Assassins, call it whatever you want but they are all the same. Burst dps, lots of control, and invisibility(not visible; not perceptible by the eye) aka “stealth”.

You cant change “stealth” without changing the very core of the ever popular Rogue class. I felt before that “stealth” should behave more like stealth, using camouflage, secrecy, deception and the like. But thats not a Rogue class anymore…thats something else. Something im afraid the Rogue, Thief, Assassin class fans would not play.

I’d be happy if they nerfed stealth and buffed health/toughness a bit.

The reason everyone stealths so much is because without it Thief has almost no survivability at all. No offense intended to pro-Thief players, I’m sure you are excellent (and I mean this genuinely), but for the average Joe, it’s pretty easy to say that without stealth the Thief is one of the most ridiculously squishy professions you can play.

If ANet were to nerf stealth and offer nothing else in terms of balance to the Thief, then that would be a shame. It’s a class I am so interested in and keep trying, but I do struggle with it (please don’t shout L2P at me, I’m trying! lol). I don’t really seem to manage the stealth mechanic well when playing as a Thief, but right now there just isn’t really another option that’s as viable.

So, yes, go ahead and nerf stealth because I can see why it can be considered OP in and of itself. But buff vitality/toughness to compensate (just a little – no need to make us insane). Otherwise, leave stealth alone because it’s the only trick Thieves can play at the moment.

CrossedHorse.4261:

The reason everyone stealths so much is because without it Thief has almost no survivability at all. No offense intended to pro-Thief players, I’m sure you are excellent (and I mean this genuinely), but for the average Joe, it’s pretty easy to say that without stealth the Thief is one of the most ridiculously squishy professions you can play.

This. It’s not like you roll a thief, start spamming CnD and become a God Walking Among Mere Mortals. It takes skill to master, and that skill is rewarded. Also, all that stuff about being our only defense. That’s definitely true too.

Whenever I see these threads my first thought is… somebody got killed by a thief in PvP or WvW. I’ve been playing a thief main for a few months now, and there are definitely some advantages to stealth. Mostly its movement and losing hate… for example, its a lot easier to grab skill points that would typically be guarded by a vet or champ. Thief gives a massive boost to making map completion easier. But combat? Not so much. It helps with escape, which is nice because you can’t go toe to toe with anything on a thief. Back stab is strong as hell, if you gear for it and can land it on somebody… which is rare. But honestly the best reason to play a thief is that they’re the only job with melee capability and a 25% speed boost signet, with no good skills that you’re sacrificing to use it.

Galtrix.7369:

I play a Thief as my main now because of the massive advantage that stealth gives me in PvP and in PvE. I get too hurt in PvE? Pop on an everlasting stealth and let my health regenerate while my enemies’ health doesn’t regenerate. I see an enemy in PvP? Pop on a stealth and chase them down, hurt them significantly, and if they decide to fight back, I pop on another stealth and stab them in the back.

Anet seriously needs to learn how to balance classes though. Rangers/Engineers are in the trashcan at the moment because their damage is so terrible. I kind of gave up on Rangers since Guild Wars 1. I played a Ranger, complained multiple times that it needed a damage boost, and never received a single response back. Turns out that I shouldn’t have just left my Ranger. I should’ve just left the game.

You play sPvP and think Rangers and Engineers are trash? LOL, now we know you’re lying.

I don’t play thief and I don’t PvP. For that reason, I’m the self-proclaimed objective 3rd party. From reading the forums, this is what I get about thieves:

Thieves deal fantastic single target damage
Thieves can reset a fight whenever they feel like it
Thieves can easily ambush an enemy from stealth
Thieves can easily evade attacks with dodges and skills
Thieves can nearly spam stealth, given the right build
Thieves are loved in PvP settings

Thieves don’t bring much team utility
Thieves aren’t very effective vs multiple enemies (aoe)
Thieves are pigeonholed with few build options
Thieves are disliked in dungeons

Are these points true? If so, it seems the answer is to tone down a thief’s ability to spam stealth and instead bestow just a bit of utility. If a thief had its stealthing reduced just a bit and could now give fury and vigor to himself and team, would that be better? Something that is still thief-esque but would offer team cohesion and be a strength that isn’t stealth-spamming?

If they’re not true, then what is the root of the problem?

Seras.5702:

If they’re not true, then what is the root of the problem?

The root of the problem is that the thief is designed around engaging in 1v1 fights with the ability to disappear and escape if additional opponents arrive and bad/zerg built people can’t stand the idea that they can’t win 1v1 or kill the thief 3v1.

Thieves are like horseflies to good players (more of an annoyance than an issue) but they are grim reapers to bad players and players running alone that are built specifically to ride the zerg wave. However players that fit the above two groups continue to complain every time a thief beats them in 1v1 or gets away when in 3v1.

stun/immobilize + burst/aoe = thief leaving and likely won;t bother you again.

Can’t really call it stealth, since stealth is when you are hiding.

This is invisibility without limits.

And yes, I hate it, because it’s so boring to fight professions with stealth, and yes, especially Thief. Thief is such a boring profession to go up against because it can disappear whenever it wants to, without limits.

I hate when people think it’s “without limits”. There’s a 12-second cap on your invisibility. In order to perma stealth you have to give up 2 trait lines and 3 utility slots. You’re useless as a perma stealth thief, contrary to what most people believe. You waste your entire initiative bar in attempts to use a leap finisher though your smoke field. If you have issues killing perma-stealth thieves, you’re just a bad player. I’m sorry, but there is no excuse.

Useless? I don’t know, hiding in a keep to res a dead mesmer, ressing downed allies or stomping a downed enemy seem all useful things to me, and I’m sure you can do more (contesting waypoints, for example).

Viking Jorun.5413:

I hate when people think it’s “without limits”. There’s a 12-second cap on your invisibility. In order to perma stealth you have to give up 2 trait lines and 3 utility slots. You’re useless as a perma stealth thief, contrary to what most people believe. You waste your entire initiative bar in attempts to use a leap finisher though your smoke field. If you have issues killing perma-stealth thieves, you’re just a bad player. I’m sorry, but there is no excuse.

the problem is not perma stealth but the burst they gain when exiting stealth and there infinet ways to gain stealth agien after 3 secs as a thief that sacrifacies hes stealth right have all ways to win a combat and almost none to die in a combat. with the fact that thiefs has a good amount of stunebreakers and stealth clears there conditions, i would say that they need to have a longer time where they cant enter stealth and then they get reveald each time they exit stealth.

Fortus.6175:

4. wil give you that much, but thats more because they dont bring much to the team when it comes to team utility, but I have made some threads about giving thieves some PvE utility already they do need it.

They’re actually useful for the dredge fractal for their long stealth while unlocking the door and destroying the wall with the bombs/blaster.

Infinite access to stealth is about the opposite of the truth. Without speccing, you get 2 utilities that grant it, one of which involves a big “kill me” circle you can’t leave or it will end early. Their cooldowns are 40sec and 60sec, and can be reduced 20%.

There is 1 weapon skill (offhand dagger 5) which outright grants it, it must be used in melee range, and has a 1sec cast time (and a big, ridiculous, flourishy animation). If you’re on your game, you can deal with that skill using the same mechanics your class gets to deal with every other incoming attack (blinds, dodges, blocks, etc). If you have dagger-main, pistol-off you can also create a smoke field and leap thru it, using half your init bar in the process. This build isn’t really made for “abusing” stealth, so much as having it as an option if it’s needed. (Alternately, this is how WvW theives achieve 12 second at a time perma stealth. The tradeoff for this, is you’re no longer useful at anything.)

If you spec, you may also enter stealth when you steal, which best case scenario (read: 30 points in your not-stealth line) is on a 21 second cooldown. If stealth is your thing, it’s more likely 30-35 seconds. Also, you can spec to stealth when you take fall damage. All but useless outside WvW. Usefull for un-stealth related reasons in WvW.

TL;DR If anything I just said is news to you, you really don’t have a firm grasp on how the class works and are just complaining about things you don’t understand.

Edited for clarity

Korsbaek.9803:

the fact that thiefs has a good amount of stunebreakers and stealth clears there conditions, i would say that they need to have a longer time where they cant enter stealth and then they get reveald each time they exit stealth.

Contrary to popular belief, thieves do not have “a lot of stunbreakers” since the MH Sword nerf. We have the same number of stunbreaks as any other profession, 5, but unlike other professions we do not get easy access to stability, invulnerability, block, aegis, or protection…and currently without stealth (i.e. at least 10 in Shadow Arts) we have a max of 3 (4 if mainhand sword) damage condition clears, forcing many to invest into Shadow Arts(stealth trait line) if they want a chance at the closest thieves get to a sustained fight.

Here’s what Xeph of team paradigm, the current top EU team, had to say about stealth in this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Current-state-of-the-meta/2452809/quote

Xeph.4513:

Stealth, is another issue in this game and plays right into the same category, it’s just so difficult to punish, and there is no real other counter for stealth than another stealth, there is no intelligent play behind; it’s just a free “do what I want” card.
If there was a reveal mechanic or a way to counter it, then you would see a lot more intelligent play and thought process put behind stealthing, but at the current state of the game there just isn’t.

That sounds awfully similar to the OP’s comment.

Virgil.3869:

Korsbaek.9803:

the fact that thiefs has a good amount of stunebreakers and stealth clears there conditions, i would say that they need to have a longer time where they cant enter stealth and then they get reveald each time they exit stealth.

Contrary to popular belief, thieves do not have “a lot of stunbreakers” since the MH Sword nerf. We have the same number of stunbreaks as any other profession, 5, but unlike other professions we do not get easy access to stability, invulnerability, block, aegis, or protection…and currently without stealth (i.e. at least 10 in Shadow Arts) we have a max of 3 (4 if mainhand sword) damage condition clears, forcing many to invest into Shadow Arts(stealth trait line) if they want a chance at the closest thieves get to a sustained fight.

So, basically, you’re saying your in the same boat as everyone except guardians. I don’t know about you, but my ranger would kill a baby quaggan to have access to as much stealth as a thief.

And I still think stealth is a broken mechanic that needs to be reworked into something that offers more counterplay. “Spam AoE in random directions” is not a counter to stealth.

Stealth is only really useful in PvP in low skill brackets.

Abilities should not be balanced around the lowest skill brackets.

Surbrus.6942:

Stealth is only really useful in PvP in low skill brackets.

Abilities should not be balanced around the lowest skill brackets.

Abilities should not be balanced around the smallest portion of the game either.

Hence why they should not be balanced for the low skilled bracket of the game, no matter how much they complain.

Stealth here is honestly starting to get worse than Deadringer spy in TF2 was….
…and really, nothing ever used to top DR spy when it came to “disengage” …

Surbrus.6942:

Stealth is only really useful in PvP in low skill brackets

if by that you mean WvW too, then yes… that’s where MOST of the end-game is currently and most of the people doing it are not anti-stealth experts.

It’s funny because… long ago in a land far away… (Guru forums, 2011) we were all commenting that Ranger had no possible role. Some of us thought “Hey why not have Ranger be the Stealth Detector b/c that’s what they’re supposed to be good at?” ….there was even rumor of a Tracking skill from early alpha. NOPE…useless class stayed useless for the vast majority of people in the lower skill curves.

Fortus.6175:

This isnt about any specific class, just stealth in general and those few classes that have it.

And…

You think we should pitty you? Please, grow some and realize your class is strong, too strong.

There it is.

Athena.3579:

Fortus.6175:

This isnt about any specific class, just stealth in general and those few classes that have it.

And…

You think we should pitty you? Please, grow some and realize your class is strong, too strong.

There it is.

Using the answer of one thing in the context of another to support a point that isnt there, sounds like politics.

While yes thieves are the major offenders, stealth remains a problem in which even thieves themselves are a victim, once the nerf start rolling out it will affect those non-stealth spammers, just like the nerfs to water/arcana for D/D bunkers ele GREATLY affected every other weapon, specifically staff which was already brokenly UP, and which still is up to today.

Quarktastic.1027:

Virgil.3869:

Korsbaek.9803:

the fact that thiefs has a good amount of stunebreakers and stealth clears there conditions, i would say that they need to have a longer time where they cant enter stealth and then they get reveald each time they exit stealth.

Contrary to popular belief, thieves do not have “a lot of stunbreakers” since the MH Sword nerf. We have the same number of stunbreaks as any other profession, 5, but unlike other professions we do not get easy access to stability, invulnerability, block, aegis, or protection…and currently without stealth (i.e. at least 10 in Shadow Arts) we have a max of 3 (4 if mainhand sword) damage condition clears, forcing many to invest into Shadow Arts(stealth trait line) if they want a chance at the closest thieves get to a sustained fight.

So, basically, you’re saying your in the same boat as everyone except guardians. I don’t know about you, but my ranger would kill a baby quaggan to have access to as much stealth as a thief.

And I still think stealth is a broken mechanic that needs to be reworked into something that offers more counterplay. “Spam AoE in random directions” is not a counter to stealth.

First of all my post said nothing about how much access to stealth a thief can get, it’s obvious thieves can get a lot of stealth. All I did was emphasize why most people especially in PvP where survivability is King decide to trait into stealth, simply its currently the only effective PASSIVE defense (such as aegis, protection, stability, invul) that a thief has access to while at the same time the only reliable way of removing Damaging conditions without having to use a Sword or a 30+ sec cooldown utility/heal skill.

On the topic of stealth itself, if the devs had implemented any of the changes suggested on these forums due to the way thieves interact with other professions, stealth would be fairly useless.
Most common Examples.
1. Make thieves become revealed by damage – This would make stealth extremely useless because of the sheer number of AOE’s flying around in wvwvw or capture points in spvp/tpvp
2. Make revealed last longer – This would only work if the devs decided to give thieves a way to get more vit/toughness since thieves have nearly no access to any other form of passive defense
3. Make thieves be revealed on block, evade, invuln etc – This is probably the most sensible of the bunch, but even this is tricky due to classes such as guardians that can have very high uptime on aegis/blocks, also contrary to what most people think unless they are ambushed landing backstabs in the rear during combat is harder than it seems when the one being attacked knows how thieves work.
4. Implement utility/trait/weapon skill to all professions other than thief that removes stealth/add revealed – Also probably not going to happen since let’s be honest here, you’re asking Anet to add entire skills and traits to every profession that are only going to be useful against 1(Thief), maybe 2(Mesmer) Professions and unnecessarily penalizes those two Professions. Also how would said skills/traits work without ruining the Professions they’re targeting (i.e. WAAAAYYY too much work for a “problem” that can be resolved through much simpler means)

Since the devs had decided to make so much of the thief tied to stealth, it would hit a lot of thief builds extremely hard in the survivability department and would require the devs to give lots of buffs to thieves in other areas like vital and toughness if they were going to add a straight nerf to stealth.

Truthfully only way of “balancing” stealth IMO without completely reworking the thief and its mechanics (not going to happen since redesigning an established profession is too risky and too much work on Anet’s part) or making the Thief useless would be to slightly weaken traits such as Shadow’s Embrace, but add similar traits to Acrobatics and other traitlines in order to encourage thieves to branch away from relying on SA for survivability, and adjust the natural initiative regen to have a cooldown before initiative regen starts again when initiative hits 0 to encourage smarter thief play, discourage excessive spamming of skills, and add more counterplay rewarding successful interrupts, evades, and stuns against a thief a little more.

Sorry for long post
TL;DR – Unfortunately many thieves are pigeonholed into taking stealth because of the way Anet designed the thief, and any attempts to balance the mechanic currently would require a lot more work than people realize.

The thing that annoyed me about stealth is that it all amounts to guessing. I always hear the retort that you should learn to play and recognize thief behavior. Problem: thieves know this, too, so then they move in an unpredictable way. Then as soon as you recognize that, BOOM theives change up again.

I would like a change to steal that would allow thieves to be revealed if they get hit by an attack or something along those lines. Then you can at least control the direction a thief goes instead of firing randomly into the night and hoping you hit something.

i think the best way to balance/nerf stealth with out reworking all the thief class is to make the target ( victim) see the thief/mesmer or any class that is on stealth on a radio between 0-100 range of him, any melee weapon have a 130 range so the perma stealth thiefs won’t recive a major nerf, they can still perma stealth and do backstabs , the only thing is if they don’t want to be seen , they have to do it on a 101-130 range, other wise you will see them and you will have a change to dodge the backstab. other thing when you see them , they don’t lose there stealth status, so they can still walk away from the 100 range and escape.

Silentsins.3726:

Here’s what Xeph of team paradigm, the current top EU team, had to say about stealth in this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Current-state-of-the-meta/2452809/quote

Xeph.4513:

Stealth, is another issue in this game and plays right into the same category, it’s just so difficult to punish, and there is no real other counter for stealth than another stealth, there is no intelligent play behind; it’s just a free “do what I want” card.
If there was a reveal mechanic or a way to counter it, then you would see a lot more intelligent play and thought process put behind stealthing, but at the current state of the game there just isn’t.

That sounds awfully similar to the OP’s comment.

I hate to say it, but this (this, being the entire post, not just those 2 paragraphs) is about as close to expert opinion as we can get on the matter. I still believe most of the thief rage threads are from folks who didn’t even try to understand the mechanic, but if the top level players really and honestly believe it’s a bad mechanic, and not just an annoying mechanic, who am I to argue?

That being said, I don’t think there’s an easy fix to this. As has been stated several times before, stealth is such a fundamental part of playing a thief, that you can’t just wholesale remove it and leave it at that.

Read the manifesto, people. Anet said, “we want you to play how you want to play without being hindered.” Yeah, of course Ranger’s and Engineer’s dps is fine. But only with certain builds. I play a longbow ranger and do 10% of the damage any other class does. Kids, please stop being positive with an undying loyalty to dead classes. If you continue saying that Rangers are good, nobody will fix them an they will stay a dead class forever. The only half decent builds with the Ranger use the Shortbow. But please, if you think Rangers are good, by all means, play the class which I guarantee the people defending the Rangers don’t play. Again, please play the class so I can destroy you in 2 seconds. I see a Ranger shooting me in PvP? I completely ignore them and shrug off the minuscule damage they deal to me. And this is coming from a scepter ele. The squishiest class in the game besides the thief.

I just thought I would throw my two cents in… But the only problem with stealth is how often your are able to enter it consecutively, which could be limited by taking that ability away from an always available skill and putting it on a utility. (but then what would the CD be?) then that brings up another problem. If you take basically a classes only defense against another profession(which is what everyone is asking for by taking away stealth from thieves), what do you buff/replace it with? So instead of getting all upset and fighting on a forum about how it needs to be nerfed (because all this ever is, is a back and forth saying the same thing to each other just re worded). Do something constructive and think of something to actually buff thieves counter ability, or mobility once their one defense is taken one. Or any aspect to make them more useful in other areas other then burst dps.
P.S. I play a Scepter Ele as well, and don’t find thieves to be as bad as everyone makes them out to be.

I’ll say it again, Thieves just don’t have any other viable option if they want to stay alive in about 90% of their encounters.

I die more times running a Thief than I ever do with ANY other profession because my passive ability to survive is almost non-existent if I don’t have stealth.

Give me better vitality and better toughness, and I’ll gladly trade about 60% of stealth ability for it – honestly. Stealth can be a hindrance just as much as it is useful. The number of times a mob resets because of stealth can be a pain, and in PvP situations, I can honestly say I would really much rather win a fight than run away from one constantly (this comment is based on the fact that MOST complaints are actually about Thieves being able to disengage and disappear so easily, rather than the DPS bursts … I’m treating things like backstab separately).

As a mechanic, I think stealth is interesting and fun, and I like that it’s a unique trait to Thieves and Mesmers, albeit in a smaller way to Mesmers. I was annoyed that Rangers got stealth added (not enough to be useful, just enough to be annoying – the resetting mobs thing again) rather than any sort of useful buff.

However, I can see why other people are having issues with it. I don’t find that argument “they are the most irritating class to play against” all that concerning because, to be honest, they’re MEANT to be irritating to play against. They are designed so they harry the back line and any outliers in WvW, either killing the enemy or distracting them from capping towers, supply posts etc. But I will agree with some of the comments that the steal mechanic is a little OP.

That said, we’re back at the beginning – it’s like that because that’s the only trick the Thieves have. Otherwise they’re just easy pickings in general. I’d personally like to see some other options, but I don’t think that people being frustrated because they find it difficult to play against Thieves is a good enough reason to say they should be nerfed to the extent that some people are asking for.

On another note, just felt that I should point out that half the “anti-Thief” crowd are arguing one thing, while the other half seem to actually just want to give stealth to every profession. Phrases like “I’d kill to see my Ranger have even half the amount of stealth” etc, don’t back up any argument for nerfing stealth. It just shows that if your chosen profession had it, you’d like it.

Stealth mechanic in GW2 is just horribly unbalanced.

In every other decent game I know with some kind of stealth, there is some way to reveal or at least to counter stealth in a way.
In GW2 you dont even get damage numbers if you are lucky enough to hit a stealthed player….just nothing, no feedback at all.

Now my suggestion is to have some kind of reveal mechanic. Maybe similar like the pyro in TF2 which in case of GW2 could be the engineers flamethrower.

So if an engi catches a stealthed player with his flames, the stealth doesnt wear off but you can at least see there is something walking around burning.

That would also give engies a popularity boost

But as it is now, ‘stealth is babies’
;)

Dafomen.7892:

Stealth mechanic in GW2 is just horribly unbalanced.

In every other decent game I know with some kind of stealth, there is some way to reveal or at least to counter stealth in a way.
In GW2 you dont even get damage numbers if you are lucky enough to hit a stealthed player….just nothing, no feedback at all.

Now my suggestion is to have some kind of reveal mechanic. Maybe similar like the pyro in TF2 which in case of GW2 could be the engineers flamethrower.

So if an engi catches a stealthed player with his flames, the stealth doesnt wear off but you can at least see there is something walking around burning.

That would also give engies a popularity boost

But as it is now, ‘stealth is babies’
;)

Kind of make them show like the Inquest Thieves do when they’re trotting round various areas in Metrica Province? That would be ok by me – mobs in PvE can act like they don’t see you, and in PvP you would need to actively LOOK for the Thief so stealth would be more a level of protection rather than outright invisibility, but in an area like WvW where there are lots of other players, they can easily be overlooked.

To me, that sounds like a good idea … stealth would still offer protection and escape (since they’d be hard, but not impossible to see), and in PvE nothing will change, since it doesn’t really matter if stealth is strong in PvE.

ilr.9675:

Stealth here is honestly starting to get worse than Deadringer spy in TF2 was….
…and really, nothing ever used to top DR spy when it came to “disengage” …

DR + Spycycle comes to mind

It should never have been included in the first place. It really is a terrible mechanic and the version in this game is one of the worst.

If they took stealth away from thief without providing the job with an entirely different functionality, they would make the class completely worthless. As a thief main, I would be cool with either giving thief defensive abilities that let us escape or defend ourselves, or giving classes like Mez or Guardian movement speed so I could play them without feeling slow as hell. Constantly having to boost your movement with weapon abilities is annoying IMO. I don’t really care about the stealth mechanic.. its the mobility that I love. But when light armor classes are running around with 25k+ health points and you’ve got 15k or less on a medium class, of course you’re going to spec for some stealth so you can gtfo.

Another thread showing how ignorant people are when it comes to countering professions.

Roll a thief. THEN suggest whatever you want to suggest.

Yeah seriously! You’ll never hear a thief say anything bad about stealth, because imagine what we would be without it… squishy little worms running around with absolutely no abilities or function worth having. Even short bow sucks now that they reduced the range, so we can’t even AOE to get credit for kills in PvE without being in the middle of a group of mobs. Its funny but I don’t think any job will get more benefit when they give every job access to more weapons, because you know at least one thing added will be worth something. I just really like my thief and spent 3 months on him. It would kind of suck if he got nerfed anymore, because there isn’t a whole lot special about the class already.

Right, a guy from the top pvp team in EU complaining about stealth is ignorant.

….right.

Michael Jordan was the best basketball player of all time, but he can’t run an organization or draft good players. Not saying he’s wrong, but its just one opinion. What’s the alternative? Redesign the class? Reduce stealth? Lower back stab damage? They would all negatively effect a class that already has difficulty functioning in 99% of scenarios.

Galtrix.7369:

Read the manifesto, people. Anet said, “we want you to play how you want to play without being hindered.” Yeah, of course Ranger’s and Engineer’s dps is fine. But only with certain builds. I play a longbow ranger and do 10% of the damage any other class does. Kids, please stop being positive with an undying loyalty to dead classes. If you continue saying that Rangers are good, nobody will fix them an they will stay a dead class forever. The only half decent builds with the Ranger use the Shortbow. But please, if you think Rangers are good, by all means, play the class which I guarantee the people defending the Rangers don’t play. Again, please play the class so I can destroy you in 2 seconds. I see a Ranger shooting me in PvP? I completely ignore them and shrug off the minuscule damage they deal to me. And this is coming from a scepter ele. The squishiest class in the game besides the thief.

…You have never actually played a ranger have you?

Galtrix.7369:

The only half decent builds with the Ranger use the Shortbow.

This is so far beyond incorrect I don’t think words capable of describing it even exist.

Klawlyt.6507:

CrossedHorse.4261:

The reason everyone stealths so much is because without it Thief has almost no survivability at all. No offense intended to pro-Thief players, I’m sure you are excellent (and I mean this genuinely), but for the average Joe, it’s pretty easy to say that without stealth the Thief is one of the most ridiculously squishy professions you can play.

This. It’s not like you roll a thief, start spamming CnD and become a God Walking Among Mere Mortals. It takes skill to master, and that skill is rewarded. Also, all that stuff about being our only defense. That’s definitely true too.

Heaven forbid you might actually to run something other than zerk gear or adabt another tactic. Stealth as it is just a clutch that has replaced skill.

Quarktastic.1027:

Galtrix.7369:

Read the manifesto, people. Anet said, “we want you to play how you want to play without being hindered.” Yeah, of course Ranger’s and Engineer’s dps is fine. But only with certain builds. I play a longbow ranger and do 10% of the damage any other class does. Kids, please stop being positive with an undying loyalty to dead classes. If you continue saying that Rangers are good, nobody will fix them an they will stay a dead class forever. The only half decent builds with the Ranger use the Shortbow. But please, if you think Rangers are good, by all means, play the class which I guarantee the people defending the Rangers don’t play. Again, please play the class so I can destroy you in 2 seconds. I see a Ranger shooting me in PvP? I completely ignore them and shrug off the minuscule damage they deal to me. And this is coming from a scepter ele. The squishiest class in the game besides the thief.

…You have never actually played a ranger have you?

Galtrix.7369:

The only half decent builds with the Ranger use the Shortbow.

This is so far beyond incorrect I don’t think words capable of describing it even exist.

I’ve played a Ranger longer than 99% of the population here. Please, tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about, because I’ve had more time to experiment with different builds and weapons than you will ever have in your lifetime. Comparing the general dps of Rangers to different classes, Rangers have the worst dps. And my quote is incorrect? Please, enlighten me. I really don’t think you actually play a Ranger. Ever tried a Greatsword or a Longbow Ranger? The damage is non-existent. You can deny it all you want, but until you actually test the damage and compare it to other classes like I have, you can’t give your opinion here.

Galtrix.7369:

Quarktastic.1027:

Galtrix.7369:

Read the manifesto, people. Anet said, “we want you to play how you want to play without being hindered.” Yeah, of course Ranger’s and Engineer’s dps is fine. But only with certain builds. I play a longbow ranger and do 10% of the damage any other class does. Kids, please stop being positive with an undying loyalty to dead classes. If you continue saying that Rangers are good, nobody will fix them an they will stay a dead class forever. The only half decent builds with the Ranger use the Shortbow. But please, if you think Rangers are good, by all means, play the class which I guarantee the people defending the Rangers don’t play. Again, please play the class so I can destroy you in 2 seconds. I see a Ranger shooting me in PvP? I completely ignore them and shrug off the minuscule damage they deal to me. And this is coming from a scepter ele. The squishiest class in the game besides the thief.

…You have never actually played a ranger have you?

Galtrix.7369:

The only half decent builds with the Ranger use the Shortbow.

This is so far beyond incorrect I don’t think words capable of describing it even exist.

I’ve played a Ranger longer than 99% of the population here. Please, tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about, because I’ve had more time to experiment with different builds and weapons than you will ever have in your lifetime. Comparing the general dps of Rangers to different classes, Rangers have the worst dps. And my quote is incorrect? Please, enlighten me. I really don’t think you actually play a Ranger. Ever tried a Greatsword or a Longbow Ranger? The damage is non-existent. You can deny it all you want, but until you actually test the damage and compare it to other classes like I have, you can’t give your opinion here.

Did you… did you even watch the video I linked you?

http://youtu.be/PWQ-39_C8LI

Everything you say about rangers is completely ignorant.

Galtrix.7369:

I play a Thief as my main now because of the massive advantage that stealth gives me in PvP and in PvE. I get too hurt in PvE? Pop on an everlasting stealth and let my health regenerate while my enemies’ health doesn’t regenerate. I see an enemy in PvP? Pop on a stealth and chase them down, hurt them significantly, and if they decide to fight back, I pop on another stealth and stab them in the back.

Anet seriously needs to learn how to balance classes though. Rangers/Engineers are in the trashcan at the moment because their damage is so terrible. I kind of gave up on Rangers since Guild Wars 1. I played a Ranger, complained multiple times that it needed a damage boost, and never received a single response back. Turns out that I shouldn’t have just left my Ranger. I should’ve just left the game.

yup i think the reason people complain is wvw as a lot of thieves gain too many advantages through stealth. permastealth is way to op in this game.

i do like some of the solutions the op described. taking more dmg in stealth, decreased movement speed in stealth or revealed if hit sound pretty good(not all of them at once of course) the problem is that the thief is to fast, and invisible and then hits u pretty hard. its a broken gamemechanic. but anet can not simply fix it because the nerf would make that class quickly up. therefore anet has to buff the thief in certain areas first, before stealth can be changed.

There’s a group of changes I’d like to make and then test out together.
1) Attacks from stealth cannot be blocked.
2)Any damage taken in stealth glances.
3a) Taking damage while in stealths you. (Possibly 2 or 3 hits, similar to a boss’s defiant stacks is getting hit once is too much. I personally feel like 2 would be good) edit: or perhaps rather than breaking it, it should take a couple of seconds off with each hit.
or
3b)Damage packs dealt stealthed enemies are visible (might want to exclude condition damage).

Either way thief might need some buffs in exchange and rebalancing on stealth durations.

I still believe, after so many months [since release] this is still valid, worth checking upon

this thread complains about the problem of stealth but doesnt show the other side of the argument or offer solutions.

yes, GW2 is probably the worst implementation of stealth ever in a major MMO. I dont think anyone would actually argue otherwise.

no, nerfing stealth hard doesn’t fix the problem, all it does is break thieves.

stealth should have either a long duration or permanancy, and incombat restealthing should be limited to a few long cooldowns. the ability to go in stealth at will and essentially use only backstab / cnd for a whole fight is broken. the ability to reset at will is broken. the choice to use an in-combat restealth in other games is a serious choice between using it to escape or using it for another shot at a sneak attack. stealth should have counters that break it, be it cooldowns on other classes or damage (oh how I long for the days of DAoC scouts with True Sight).

that said: if stealth is fixed, thieves are going to spend a lot more time out of stealth, and are going to need a HUGE buff to in-combat survivability just to be viable. thats a bitter pill a lot of the thief haters calling for stealth nerfs just wont be able to swallow.

In combat stealth and perma stealth while attacking was the worst idea I’ve ever seen in any game. It’s held thieves back from any improvements because it is such a despised mechanic.

Banono.4597:

All I hear from these threads is “Nerf stealth!” but what about people who play thieves?

They should perhaps learn to play their class without needing to abuse stealth? Like, for example, most other classes in this game?

Kuroi.2910:

i think the best way to balance/nerf stealth with out reworking all the thief class is to make the target ( victim) see the thief/mesmer or any class that is on stealth on a radio between 0-100 range of him, any melee weapon have a 130 range so the perma stealth thiefs won’t recive a major nerf, they can still perma stealth and do backstabs , the only thing is if they don’t want to be seen , they have to do it on a 101-130 range, other wise you will see them and you will have a change to dodge the backstab. other thing when you see them , they don’t lose there stealth status, so they can still walk away from the 100 range and escape.

This is simply one of the better suggestions in the thread. Something akin to WoW’s mechanic where you hear a specific noise, and even see the stealthed toon if they are pretty much right on top of you and you are facing them. This gives the non-stealth player a chance to react to or find the stealthie. You could even go so far as to add traits, or a passive through runes to increase “awareness”.

I have mained a thief since beta, I love and understand the class. And I’ve tried every build. I’m no high-end pvper but I’m also not without experience. My “skill” level increases exponentially when I go D/P. It is simply out of line for the benefits it gives the thief. That is why it is getting nerfed. It’s a cheese build.

To OP: You forgot one thing on your list of “disadvantages” of Stealth, and that is the one big advantage it has in such games you had in mind. In those games, stealth is PERMANENT until broken by the player or his enemy.
I’ll give you the time to think about this now….