Advocate of Justice, Liberty and Truth
Stealth Should be the Reward
Take a close look at this; Guide to thief Infinite Stealth also while in zerg?
…. By many players it was being used to grant some initiative when going into stealth. However there were some abusive builds that were using this to maintain very long stealth uptime without having to use their utility skills. The problem with this is that it lets them recharge those skills while in stealth, which takes away the risk associated with using them. We are ok with thieves blowing their cooldowns to have longer stealth, and we are ok with theives bouncing in and out of stealth, but we were not ok with thieves maintaining long duration stealth through abusing a single trait.
…Devs have already stated that perma stealth is a cheap abuse on the thief gameplay, and will thus be changed.
They are meant to take advantage of openings. Don’t give them that opening.
It may work for random 1v1 meetings between locations, but if it happens at the place you need to defend (supply camp, ruins, yak escort), then you may not have that option, as running away is equal to a lost fight.
This is true and definitely gives thieves the advantage in the long run if you are defending something and can’t leave, but I’m 100% OK with that. They need to have some kind of advantage. Being able to retreat well doesn’t really cut it as a major class tactic. It drags out the fight and is just annoying for the other person more than anything. Their stealthy retreat allows them to pick at a solo defender until they die without a major threat of death (unless someone else shows up). I like that they have this advantage because lord knows I have plenty advantages.
In PvP as a Guardian I can hold down a point by myself against multiple enemies for quite a long time: longer than pretty much any class. I’m not going to win the fight but I can keep the point contested long enough for the rest of my team to capture theirs and come back to help defend. Necros are good at this too. Most classes are good at something, I don’t think it’s fair to take away or reduce the effectiveness of the Thief’s limited advantage. They really do need it.
Yes, in 1v1, as a guardian i can’t really force a thief to escape, but also that thief can kill me only if i won’t be paying attention. Funny thing happens however, when the situation changes to 5v5, for example. 5 thieves can spike practically anyone from stealth, and then immediately escape within safety of invisibility, waiting till they will be able to pick a next victim. And there’s hardly anything other classes can do in such situation. Because current stealth countermeasures are so weak they might as well not exist.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Take a close look at this; Guide to thief Infinite Stealth also while in zerg?
…. By many players it was being used to grant some initiative when going into stealth. However there were some abusive builds that were using this to maintain very long stealth uptime without having to use their utility skills. The problem with this is that it lets them recharge those skills while in stealth, which takes away the risk associated with using them. We are ok with thieves blowing their cooldowns to have longer stealth, and we are ok with theives bouncing in and out of stealth, but we were not ok with thieves maintaining long duration stealth through abusing a single trait.
…Devs have already stated that perma stealth is a cheap abuse on the thief gameplay, and will thus be changed.
I would be the happiest if we eliminated the backstab BS too, I would even dare to say that coming out of stealth should have a 1 second damage penalty of about 50%
[GoM] Gate of Madness Server Elementalist|Guardian
Legendary SoloQ
Legendary SoloQ
The classes that have stealth are incredibly weak compared to others.
Thieves and mesmers only have 2 viable set-ups: pure zerk and pure condi. Both mean the thief/mesmer is low on vitality and toughness, and really easy to kill.
Just to give an example: my zerk thief does ~7k (4-5k on a heavy armour target) with backstab and there’s a delay on backstab because of the Revealed state. On top he only has 13k health. A zerk warrior has easily 20k+ health and does 2-4k per second with axes and can hit easily 7-8k with whirlwind attack on a low armour target.
To top that it also has the best mobility in the whole game: leaps and movement skills both on weapons and utilities, perma swiftness. And lastly it has damage negators on shield and endure pain. Seriously, if one class needs nerf it’s warrior.There are plenty of other choices than pure zerk and pure condition for mesmers AND thieves…I used to run a tanky/bunker build for my mesmer in PvP, and…it was hilariously awesome.
I know you didn’t state otherwise, but as a mesmer I don’t need to rely on stealth as much as a thief. Mesmers have plenty of disabling skills as their defensive mechanism.
To me, asking a nerf for stealth for all classes, would be like asking to reduce the effectiveness of knockbacks, cripples, blurs, immobilize, and blocks. It would really hurt the mesmer if that happened.
that would hurt more than just the mesmer asking for stealth to get burned alive doesnt hurt anything but the babies that can’t play without it.
Roll an eng/mes/guard and you won’t care about thieves. If people in this thread were complaining more about my mes stealthing and coming out with regen+prot+block while my phants wreck people when she’s stealthed (not causing revealed), I would agree it’s overpowered. A thief though… nah.
You have propably never seen the most extreme cases of stealth exploiting.
An example:
In one of the WvW matches lately i have run into a thief group that camped a supply camp (the northern borderland one. Not on their borderland, of course). There were 4 or 5 of them, in perma invis. When someone appeared in the camp, they ganked him with coordinated spikes. When a zerg appeared, they stayed away, or picked up people on the sides and just disappeared back again. When there was noone around, they flipped camp. They were impossible to chase away, even with stealth traps (since they were always close enough to see them placed) short of calling a main blob to just cover everything in aoes (which caused them to change location to a different camp for a while before just coming back).In fact, i have seen a lot of multi-thief perma invis groups running around in WvW lately. The combo is so overpowered it is really sick. Basically it can be countered only by another perma-invis thief group surprise-outganking them.
In short, either the stealth mechanics need serious overhaul/nerf, or more counterplay options (for all classes) need to be introduced.
5 thieves that hide when they can be beaten by a greater group coming out to flip a camp or ganking smaller groups?
How on earth is this an exploit? Is 5 engineers using grenades and stacking conditions on a target an exploit? Is 5 hammer warriors using the hammer train tactic wherein the enemy in perma stun an exploit? is 5 necroes taking turns casting signet of spite and epidemic an exploit? What of thoe AOE fields cast by 5 elementalists? What of five mesmers using perplexity and clones? 5 warriors rotating using heal on their shouts?
Why is it that thieves are always held to a different standard?
The fact is when ANY class works in conjunction in this manner the dynamics of the game change and the group will be seen as overpowered. It not limited to thieves ambushing. The only difference is the thief can hide but that same thief can not stand in the open like a necro can or a warrior can and expect to survive.
5 thieves that hide when they can be beaten by a greater group coming out to flip a camp or ganking smaller groups?
How on earth is this an exploit? Is 5 engineers using grenades and stacking conditions on a target an exploit? Is 5 hammer warriors using the hammer train tactic wherein the enemy in perma stun an exploit? is 5 necroes taking turns casting signet of spite and epidemic an exploit? What of thoe AOE fields cast by 5 elementalists? What of five mesmers using perplexity and clones? 5 warriors rotating using heal on their shouts?
Why is it that thieves are always held to a different standard?
The fact is when ANY class works in conjunction in this manner the dynamics of the game change and the group will be seen as overpowered. It not limited to thieves ambushing. The only difference is the thief can hide but that same thief can not stand in the open like a necro can or a warrior can and expect to survive.
I don’t like your defense of the thief yes the other classes all together 5 v 5 would be devastating but take 5 thieves vs 5 of anything else and they win unless there is MASS aoe or the thieves stack together and get insta downed by a group cleave attack/burst aoe skill that is if you aren’t dropping smoke fields that blind consistently making them really only easily destroyed by mass aoe that doesnt require contact with a weapon
5 thieves that hide when they can be beaten by a greater group coming out to flip a camp or ganking smaller groups?
How on earth is this an exploit? Is 5 engineers using grenades and stacking conditions on a target an exploit? Is 5 hammer warriors using the hammer train tactic wherein the enemy in perma stun an exploit? is 5 necroes taking turns casting signet of spite and epidemic an exploit? What of thoe AOE fields cast by 5 elementalists? What of five mesmers using perplexity and clones? 5 warriors rotating using heal on their shouts?
Why is it that thieves are always held to a different standard?
The fact is when ANY class works in conjunction in this manner the dynamics of the game change and the group will be seen as overpowered. It not limited to thieves ambushing. The only difference is the thief can hide but that same thief can not stand in the open like a necro can or a warrior can and expect to survive.
Probably because the target is a camp, and not a zerg.
In one context, I do remember reading that the devs want their thieves different from other MMO thieves, where stealth is focused within combat, instead of out. It’s one reason why they’re removing perma-stealth exploit with D/P builds. There was no risk waltzing into an enemy map and doing whatever you pleased. Chaining stealth gives the same thing.
On the other hand, you could just say it’s a WvW strategy, and on the same bar as a mesmer hiding inside a keep. But at least a mesmer has the risk of being discovered during a sweep.
5 thieves that hide when they can be beaten by a greater group coming out to flip a camp or ganking smaller groups?
How on earth is this an exploit? Is 5 engineers using grenades and stacking conditions on a target an exploit? Is 5 hammer warriors using the hammer train tactic wherein the enemy in perma stun an exploit? is 5 necroes taking turns casting signet of spite and epidemic an exploit? What of thoe AOE fields cast by 5 elementalists? What of five mesmers using perplexity and clones? 5 warriors rotating using heal on their shouts?
Why is it that thieves are always held to a different standard?
The fact is when ANY class works in conjunction in this manner the dynamics of the game change and the group will be seen as overpowered. It not limited to thieves ambushing. The only difference is the thief can hide but that same thief can not stand in the open like a necro can or a warrior can and expect to survive.
I don’t like your defense of the thief yes the other classes all together 5 v 5 would be devastating but take 5 thieves vs 5 of anything else and they win unless there is MASS aoe or the thieves stack together and get insta downed by a group cleave attack/burst aoe skill that is if you aren’t dropping smoke fields that blind consistently making them really only easily destroyed by mass aoe that doesnt require contact with a weapon
There was a tourney in spvp where it was 5 of each class vs 5 of another class.
Thief did good but I believe Warriors won.
Yes warriors won, but thats because their synergy and lack of weakness, they can literally take any role in a team, whereas thieves not so much. Still nonetheless, I have mentioned this a bunch of times; it isnt about thieves can win games easily, but rather the poor experience they bring both to the player and the enemy. Stealth and backstab need so heavy rework if they want to make thieves less toxic.
[GoM] Gate of Madness Server Elementalist|Guardian
Legendary SoloQ
Legendary SoloQ
Funny how in this thread everyone’s talking about how OP thieves are, but in the profession-specific forum everyone’s complaining about how weak the class is becoming and speculating over how many people will stop playing thief after the December 10th patch.
General consensus seems to be that getting rid of permastealth is a good thing, but that every time some “OP” ability of thieves is removed, it’s not balanced with anything new they can do instead.
After playing a thief for a couple of weeks, IMO the thieves who can dominate in combat are that way because they’re incredibly good players. On my warrior I can be effective with little effort or experience. On my thief I get my butt handed to me all the time and probably will for the next 6 months until I get better at it.
Given that everywhere I look these days I see warriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarrior I don’t think it’s thieves that need even more restraining. They’ve already been subjected to a lot of it, and at least when a thief is really good it’s because the player is really good.
Bottom line: if you want to nerf stealth into utter uselessness, then what do you replace it with? If all you’re going to do is say to remove it, then I guess you might as well remove the whole class.
(edited by Qaelyn.7612)
5 thieves that hide when they can be beaten by a greater group coming out to flip a camp or ganking smaller groups?
No, 5 thieves that stay hidden pretty much 100% of the time, and can burst/stealth, rinse and repeat, regardless if there’s only one opponent, or 20.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Funny how in this thread everyone’s talking about how OP thieves are, but in the profession-specific forum everyone’s complaining about how weak the class is becoming and speculating over how many people will stop playing thief after the December 10th patch.
General consensus seems to be that getting rid of permastealth is a good thing, but that every time some “OP” ability of thieves is removed, it’s not balanced with anything new they can do instead.
After playing a thief for a couple of weeks, IMO the thieves who can dominate in combat are that way because they’re incredibly good players. On my warrior I can be effective with little effort or experience. On my thief I get my butt handed to me all the time and probably will for the next 6 months until I get better at it.
Given that everywhere I look these days I see warriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarrior I don’t think it’s thieves that need even more restraining. They’ve already been subjected to a lot of it, and at least when a thief is really good it’s because the player is really good.
Bottom line: if you want to nerf stealth into utter uselessness, then what do you replace it with? If all you’re going to do is say to remove it, then I guess you might as well remove the whole class.
That’s easy. Like most other games which have thief-like classes/professions, make stealth something that’s only useful for openers (with perhaps a skill to re-stealth on a long CD). Then, make the rest of their combat ability based upon some sort of evasion mechanic. In GW2, that could be tied to giving thieves a much larger vigor pool or regeneration rate, for example. You could even make it something affected by traits – one line might increase vigor while another increases passive miss/block chance.
The idea should be to reduce the Thief’s reliance upon stealth for survival and then make stealth a much smaller aspect of its play style.
Funny how in this thread everyone’s talking about how OP thieves are, but in the profession-specific forum everyone’s complaining about how weak the class is becoming and speculating over how many people will stop playing thief after the December 10th patch.
General consensus seems to be that getting rid of permastealth is a good thing, but that every time some “OP” ability of thieves is removed, it’s not balanced with anything new they can do instead.
After playing a thief for a couple of weeks, IMO the thieves who can dominate in combat are that way because they’re incredibly good players. On my warrior I can be effective with little effort or experience. On my thief I get my butt handed to me all the time and probably will for the next 6 months until I get better at it.
Given that everywhere I look these days I see warriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarrior I don’t think it’s thieves that need even more restraining. They’ve already been subjected to a lot of it, and at least when a thief is really good it’s because the player is really good.
Bottom line: if you want to nerf stealth into utter uselessness, then what do you replace it with? If all you’re going to do is say to remove it, then I guess you might as well remove the whole class.
That’s easy. Like most other games which have thief-like classes/professions, make stealth something that’s only useful for openers (with perhaps a skill to re-stealth on a long CD). Then, make the rest of their combat ability based upon some sort of evasion mechanic. In GW2, that could be tied to giving thieves a much larger vigor pool or regeneration rate, for example. You could even make it something affected by traits – one line might increase vigor while another increases passive miss/block chance.
The idea should be to reduce the Thief’s reliance upon stealth for survival and then make stealth a much smaller aspect of its play style.
Except the thief complainers whined about how S/D evaded and teleported too much so thieves are getting a substantial nerf to there vigor and their shadow return on sword is getting a cast time, so if they get stunned once, they’re pretty much toast if Shadow Step is on cooldown. True the build did have CnD, but it never used it, it needed to go glass to do viable sustained damage which means 0 stealth traits. My point is, stealthing or evading, thief gets complained about just as much.
Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter
Part-time Kittenposter
but in the profession-specific forum everyone’s complaining about how weak the class is becoming and speculating over how many people will stop playing thief after the December 10th patch.
nothing special, go to every forum and you will see that……even in warrior forums……
Nothing new really, so that you should not be taken into account for “balancing”.
[GoM] Gate of Madness Server Elementalist|Guardian
Legendary SoloQ
Legendary SoloQ
At the present time I count roughly 10 threads in the front page of the thief forum talking nerfs, or wondering about if people will continue playing the class after Dec 10, or asking how to adjust to the coming changes that destroy existing builds. I see nothing comparable anywhere else, and certainly not the warrior forum.
I’d be fine with what ATMAvatar suggested. But they always seem to reduce the viability of the class without providing anything new to replace what they remove.
Nope lol 5 thiefs v anything are weak and are only likely to beat a group of rangers. In tpvp the team with the most thiefs loses most of the time. Most vids of the best zerg busting 5 man squads are ussually filled with wars, guards, eleies, and necros.
When guilds do small gvg 5v5 you dont see 5 theif comps because thats would totally kitten them, bunkers spaming aoe cc and condies ftw. Thief is ok in skirmishes and duels but far from the top. The ability to disengage makes theif the best roamer thats it. If a thief try to compete over a camp or sentry point with another class thief loses.
All professions built for dueling beat thief except ranger is 50/50. Its only due to majority of player’s incompetence and lack of experience that a thief can excel. In group fights it only takes one mistake and a thief is done. At higher lvl of play thief is lest desired class.
The amount of ignorance people have when it comes to the thief is laughable.
Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir
At the present time I count roughly 10 threads in the front page of the thief forum talking nerfs, or wondering about if people will continue playing the class after Dec 10, or asking how to adjust to the coming changes that destroy existing builds. I see nothing comparable anywhere else, and certainly not the warrior forum.
I’d be fine with what ATMAvatar suggested. But they always seem to reduce the viability of the class without providing anything new to replace what they remove.
Lets be honest here, most of those thieves picked up the class knowing how OP strong it is currently, the only thing they are crying about is that a toxic aspect they so much enjoy is getting slightly disturbed. I can guarantee you that if you roll all the way back 9 months ago, when the first tweaks to stealth started , that the entire frum was plaged with “OMG IM QUITTING THE GAME” , “YOU BROKE THE CLASS”, “GG, NERFED INTO UNVIABLE” and bunch of threads like that, but here we are, still more than a year since release and they are as strong as always. It takes time to adapt, msot thieves dont even know how to survive outside stealth because they lack the necessary skills to even do the most basic; press dodge or a button for teleports (not even exaggerating here, apparently).
I can assure you that after stealth and backstab get finally reworked into something that isnt toxic and requires risk and rewards, the class will be fine. Like I said, ignore those people, they simply want an “easy button”, just like warriors. The reputation of any PvP esport rides solely on its balance, once we get those 2 classes in line, and we bring eles up to par with the rest of the classes, the game will see some nice attention,
[GoM] Gate of Madness Server Elementalist|Guardian
Legendary SoloQ
Legendary SoloQ
Funny how in this thread everyone’s talking about how OP thieves are, but in the profession-specific forum everyone’s complaining about how weak the class is becoming and speculating over how many people will stop playing thief after the December 10th patch.
General consensus seems to be that getting rid of permastealth is a good thing, but that every time some “OP” ability of thieves is removed, it’s not balanced with anything new they can do instead.
After playing a thief for a couple of weeks, IMO the thieves who can dominate in combat are that way because they’re incredibly good players. On my warrior I can be effective with little effort or experience. On my thief I get my butt handed to me all the time and probably will for the next 6 months until I get better at it.
Given that everywhere I look these days I see warriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarriorwarrior I don’t think it’s thieves that need even more restraining. They’ve already been subjected to a lot of it, and at least when a thief is really good it’s because the player is really good.
Bottom line: if you want to nerf stealth into utter uselessness, then what do you replace it with? If all you’re going to do is say to remove it, then I guess you might as well remove the whole class.
Most thieves are horrible players and don’t understand how easy their class is. Stealth classes attract that type of player.
OP’d thief, lol
>>No, 5 thieves that stay hidden pretty much 100% of the time, and can burst/stealth, rinse and repeat, regardless if there’s only one opponent, or 20.
This is simply not the case. If this were the case you would see far more thieves in WvW then other classes. You would see 5 man teams of thieves clearing dungeouns and fractals.
If 5 thieves could hide at will and take down groups of 20 then why is not every server out there running these teams?
>>The idea should be to reduce the Thief’s reliance upon stealth for survival and then make stealth a much smaller aspect of its play style.
They are doing the opposite suggesting the thief ability to dodge too great thus forcing the thief to rely on stealth for survival.
Had a thief jump me and started daggerstorm. Shield bashed that and continued. We both got low on HP but he stealthed and broke away from fight. So I continue on to next camp. Halfway there something starts hitting me from behind. Looked like 3 enemy at first but see that its the same thief with thieves guild this time. Thankfully I had snow leopard up to avoid being zerged to death on reset night so I returned the favor and stealthed away.
Yeah that pretty much sums up stealth.
>>The idea should be to reduce the Thief’s reliance upon stealth for survival and then make stealth a much smaller aspect of its play style.
They are doing the opposite suggesting the thief ability to dodge too great thus forcing the thief to rely on stealth for survival.
Let me quote this for the pinnacle of truth. I don’t know what ANet wants us to do. I’d have loved to keep my s/p dodge build, but s/p was kitten as it was and now we’re being forced into stealth to keep up with every other class.
No one is forcing you to stealth. Decent players know how to win without an over reliance on stealth.
OP’d thief, lol
No one is forcing you to stealth. Decent players know how to win without an over reliance on stealth.
Decent players know how to deal with thieves using stealth. Apparently you are not a decent player.
No one is forcing you to stealth. Decent players know how to win without an over reliance on stealth.
Decent players know how to deal with thieves using stealth. Apparently you are not a decent player.
bordering on a personal attack, but I will let it slide. I am not having problems with stealth. However you are complaining about being forced to stealth. I simply point out that good players don’t feel forced to stealth. google a few builds, and you too can thrive without stealth reliance. Good luck.
OP’d thief, lol
No one is forcing you to stealth. Decent players know how to win without an over reliance on stealth.
Decent players know how to deal with thieves using stealth. Apparently you are not a decent player.
bordering on a personal attack, but I will let it slide. I am not having problems with stealth. However you are complaining about being forced to stealth. I simply point out that good players don’t feel forced to stealth. google a few builds, and you too can thrive without stealth reliance. Good luck.
We’re talking exactly about that. I had the same view as you, but with the vigor nerf and nerf to infiltrator’s return, we’re running out of options for no-stealth builds. Sword simply won’t be viable after December 10th. Period. If you like playing builds which are free kills for any decent player, be my guest. Any decent thief will be conforming to what we’re pigeonholed into and master the kitten out of it, and decent players still won’t know how to deal with it. This is a very skill based game. If you want to tell me exactly how a fight will go, baffle me with bullkitten.
No one is forcing you to stealth. Decent players know how to win without an over reliance on stealth.
Decent players know how to deal with thieves using stealth. Apparently you are not a decent player.
bordering on a personal attack, but I will let it slide. I am not having problems with stealth. However you are complaining about being forced to stealth. I simply point out that good players don’t feel forced to stealth. google a few builds, and you too can thrive without stealth reliance. Good luck.
We’re talking exactly about that. I had the same view as you, but with the vigor nerf and nerf to infiltrator’s return, we’re running out of options for no-stealth builds. Sword simply won’t be viable after December 10th. Period. If you like playing builds which are free kills for any decent player, be my guest. Any decent thief will be conforming to what we’re pigeonholed into and master the kitten out of it, and decent players still won’t know how to deal with it. This is a very skill based game. If you want to tell me exactly how a fight will go, baffle me with bullkitten.
I think you are exaggerating a little bit here, if you want to know the true meaning of unviable I recommend you to play elementalists for a bit, then you will realize how bad it is to have 0 viable builds and one that is somehow half effective, and only at killing stuff, because, unlike thieves, eles cant just stroll away with stealth when things go awry, so eles die in a blink after they unload their stuff (which mind you, has about 4x times the CD of any good thief skill).
Thieves will still be incredibly strong, they are merely nerfing stealth, and they even brought some of those changes coming on Dec 10 back, you took a 2 seconds nerf off 14 seconds I believe, thats nothing compared to eles which got 6 from 10, and the only way to get that buff was with 90 seconds CD skills……pretty much uncalled for if you ask me. No class in the game has to do the biggest sacrifices for some benefices than an ele.
Like I said, bad thieves will be the ones that wont be able to adapt, bad thieves were already the ones relying on stealth, and thats a good riddance, and to make it even worse, some theory crafter on the forum was saying that now you can still get nearly 95% stealth upkeep, you will excuse me, but thats still pretty much OP, so please stop the pity train already, nobody is buying it. Want to self pity? Play eles
[GoM] Gate of Madness Server Elementalist|Guardian
Legendary SoloQ
Legendary SoloQ
Most thieves are horrible players and don’t understand how easy their class is. Stealth classes attract that type of player.
When I first started reading the thief subforum and saw you claim you had 5 thief alts, I thought I should pay attention to your posts. But increasingly they are all as unconstructive as the above, which is likely how you’ve earned the reputation you have there now. I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish, but it doesn’t seem like anything positive.
I’m a new player but not a horrible one and I find thief substantially more difficult to play than warrior or even mesmer. This is not supposed to be a game that requires supreme twitch skills to be viable, and right now there is little reason for anyone to roll a thief other than deliberately wanting a challenge.
Let me quote this for the pinnacle of truth. I don’t know what ANet wants us to do. I’d have loved to keep my s/p dodge build, but s/p was kitten as it was and now we’re being forced into stealth to keep up with every other class.
This is pretty much the point I’m trying to make. I just don’t see a lot of viable builds in that class compared to others.
No one is forcing you to stealth. Decent players know how to win without an over reliance on stealth.
Decent players know how to deal with thieves using stealth. Apparently you are not a decent player.
bordering on a personal attack, but I will let it slide. I am not having problems with stealth. However you are complaining about being forced to stealth. I simply point out that good players don’t feel forced to stealth. google a few builds, and you too can thrive without stealth reliance. Good luck.
We’re talking exactly about that. I had the same view as you, but with the vigor nerf and nerf to infiltrator’s return, we’re running out of options for no-stealth builds. Sword simply won’t be viable after December 10th. Period. If you like playing builds which are free kills for any decent player, be my guest. Any decent thief will be conforming to what we’re pigeonholed into and master the kitten out of it, and decent players still won’t know how to deal with it. This is a very skill based game. If you want to tell me exactly how a fight will go, baffle me with bullkitten.
I think you are exaggerating a little bit here, if you want to know the true meaning of unviable I recommend you to play elementalists for a bit, then you will realize how bad it is to have 0 viable builds and one that is somehow half effective, and only at killing stuff, because, unlike thieves, eles cant just stroll away with stealth when things go awry, so eles die in a blink after they unload their stuff (which mind you, has about 4x times the CD of any good thief skill).
Thieves will still be incredibly strong, they are merely nerfing stealth, and they even brought some of those changes coming on Dec 10 back, you took a 2 seconds nerf off 14 seconds I believe, thats nothing compared to eles which got 6 from 10, and the only way to get that buff was with 90 seconds CD skills……pretty much uncalled for if you ask me. No class in the game has to do the biggest sacrifices for some benefices than an ele.
Like I said, bad thieves will be the ones that wont be able to adapt, bad thieves were already the ones relying on stealth, and thats a good riddance, and to make it even worse, some theory crafter on the forum was saying that now you can still get nearly 95% stealth upkeep, you will excuse me, but thats still pretty much OP, so please stop the pity train already, nobody is buying it. Want to self pity? Play eles
This is laughable. I have an 80 ele who uses s/d, and it’s plenty viable.
No one is forcing you to stealth. Decent players know how to win without an over reliance on stealth.
Decent players know how to deal with thieves using stealth. Apparently you are not a decent player.
bordering on a personal attack, but I will let it slide. I am not having problems with stealth. However you are complaining about being forced to stealth. I simply point out that good players don’t feel forced to stealth. google a few builds, and you too can thrive without stealth reliance. Good luck.
We’re talking exactly about that. I had the same view as you, but with the vigor nerf and nerf to infiltrator’s return, we’re running out of options for no-stealth builds. Sword simply won’t be viable after December 10th. Period. If you like playing builds which are free kills for any decent player, be my guest. Any decent thief will be conforming to what we’re pigeonholed into and master the kitten out of it, and decent players still won’t know how to deal with it. This is a very skill based game. If you want to tell me exactly how a fight will go, baffle me with bullkitten.
I think you are exaggerating a little bit here, if you want to know the true meaning of unviable I recommend you to play elementalists for a bit, then you will realize how bad it is to have 0 viable builds and one that is somehow half effective, and only at killing stuff, because, unlike thieves, eles cant just stroll away with stealth when things go awry, so eles die in a blink after they unload their stuff (which mind you, has about 4x times the CD of any good thief skill).
Thieves will still be incredibly strong, they are merely nerfing stealth, and they even brought some of those changes coming on Dec 10 back, you took a 2 seconds nerf off 14 seconds I believe, thats nothing compared to eles which got 6 from 10, and the only way to get that buff was with 90 seconds CD skills……pretty much uncalled for if you ask me. No class in the game has to do the biggest sacrifices for some benefices than an ele.
Like I said, bad thieves will be the ones that wont be able to adapt, bad thieves were already the ones relying on stealth, and thats a good riddance, and to make it even worse, some theory crafter on the forum was saying that now you can still get nearly 95% stealth upkeep, you will excuse me, but thats still pretty much OP, so please stop the pity train already, nobody is buying it. Want to self pity? Play eles
This is laughable. I have an 80 ele who uses s/d, and it’s plenty viable.
I have an lol 80 thief and i think they are fine and will be fine after patch
(oh look, I can do that too :O )
[GoM] Gate of Madness Server Elementalist|Guardian
Legendary SoloQ
Legendary SoloQ
Most thieves are horrible players and don’t understand how easy their class is. Stealth classes attract that type of player.
When I first started reading the thief subforum and saw you claim you had 5 thief alts, I thought I should pay attention to your posts. But increasingly they are all as unconstructive as the above, which is likely how you’ve earned the reputation you have there now. I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish, but it doesn’t seem like anything positive.
I’m a new player but not a horrible one and I find thief substantially more difficult to play than warrior or even mesmer. This is not supposed to be a game that requires supreme twitch skills to be viable, and right now there is little reason for anyone to roll a thief other than deliberately wanting a challenge.
Let me quote this for the pinnacle of truth. I don’t know what ANet wants us to do. I’d have loved to keep my s/p dodge build, but s/p was kitten as it was and now we’re being forced into stealth to keep up with every other class.
This is pretty much the point I’m trying to make. I just don’t see a lot of viable builds in that class compared to others.
Well I am sorry that you seem to be struggling with your thief. Most of us like the class and are looking forward to the patch. Hang in there. It gets easier with experience.
OP’d thief, lol
Most of us like the class and are looking forward to the patch.
That would be the “most of us” that you just called “horrible players”, right?
I think most thieves are happy to have exploits like perma-stealth removed. But most definitely are not happy about all the other changes being made that damage builds having nothing to do with perma-stealth, and add little that’s new and exciting to the class.
The fact is that lyssa runes+shadow step (2 stunbreaks+ teleport+condi cleanse, talk about way overbudget skill)blinding powdershadow refuge make any decent thief untouchable.
They simply cannot die if they don’t want to.
But unlike all high survival condi bunker builds, thieves have real spike and the best chasing power of all classes. No class can outrun a thief except maybe a greatsword warrior or double sword ranger.
If a backstab is critting my 2k toughness mesmer for 5-6k, then that backstab is hitting glass cannons easily for 8-9k. And that’s not OK for a skill you can do about every 6-7 seconds, while invisible.
The fact is that lyssa runes+shadow step (2 stunbreaks+ teleport+condi cleanse, talk about way overbudget skill)blinding powdershadow refuge make any decent thief untouchable.
They simply cannot die if they don’t want to.
But unlike all high survival condi bunker builds, thieves have real spike and the best chasing power of all classes. No class can outrun a thief except maybe a greatsword warrior or double sword ranger.
If a backstab is critting my 2k toughness mesmer for 5-6k, then that backstab is hitting glass cannons easily for 8-9k. And that’s not OK for a skill you can do about every 6-7 seconds, while invisible.
It’s barely viable in tPvP, but tell me more about how thieves need more nerfs rather than more build variety and less pigeonholing into said backstab builds. They’re killing sword on December 10th, so get used to it.
The fact is that lyssa runes+shadow step (2 stunbreaks+ teleport+condi cleanse, talk about way overbudget skill)blinding powdershadow refuge make any decent thief untouchable.
They simply cannot die if they don’t want to.
But unlike all high survival condi bunker builds, thieves have real spike and the best chasing power of all classes. No class can outrun a thief except maybe a greatsword warrior or double sword ranger.
If a backstab is critting my 2k toughness mesmer for 5-6k, then that backstab is hitting glass cannons easily for 8-9k. And that’s not OK for a skill you can do about every 6-7 seconds, while invisible.
It’s barely viable in tPvP
The argument “A build is worthless at gameplay X” is completely irrelevant to a problem “A build is OP in gameplay Y”.
At best it is relevant to the topic “start balancing each gameplay mode separately”, which is not what we’re talking about.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
No one is forcing you to stealth. Decent players know how to win without an over reliance on stealth.
Decent players know how to deal with thieves using stealth. Apparently you are not a decent player.
bordering on a personal attack, but I will let it slide. I am not having problems with stealth. However you are complaining about being forced to stealth. I simply point out that good players don’t feel forced to stealth. google a few builds, and you too can thrive without stealth reliance. Good luck.
Virtually everyone of your posts suggest stealth overpowered. You continilayy claim that DECENT players do not need it.
Fine. Then at least be consistent. If decent players do not need stealth and decent players have no issues dealing with stealth then what is your problem with stealth?
Honestly I don’t really see thieves to be problem as they are atm, even with stealth and bursts. Especially in WvW and PvP.
Personally I’m not exactly good player, average at best, since I often do stupid mistakes and stuff. Still I find them okay, as long as I’m not fixated to actually kill them.
Of course thieves are annoying to play against, but seriously Warriors, Guardians, Necromancers don’t really have any problems with Thiefs as long as they have at least decent gear, especially in WvW where most has Soldier, Cleric, Sentinel gears, thus having at least high toughness, but usually HP too and honestly if you fail to thief with those characters you fail as player.
If ya chose to be there in Zerger gear, gtfo rally bot, though in necromancers case I could see why it’s tempting choice with all those aoes.
Elementals have bit more difficult time, depending of build and weapons of choice, but tbh I’m nowadays playing elemental as my main and using staff, which many thiefs seems to consider easy target, but mixing cleric and invader (soldier) gear with it and having high def, heal and okayish hp I usually can either brush them off or escape myself from encounter.
Elementals can often even avoid thief bursts, as long as you know their most common patterns, like using steal + stun, then rolling behind you in while in stealth to do backstab. As long as you have either teleport or mist form, simply get away and leave them empty handed. Then I usually cast some AoEs around me and path I’m going to run for, most thiefs quits since they don’t want to run in to AoE fields.
Killing them with staff is too hard for me though, so I simply learned to keep them away.
Tried to play Glass Cannon Ele once and got actually 2 shotted by thief, never played glass ele since.
Mesmer is kinda even match to thief, in my own experience, played mesmer a lot before my Ele. GS, Sword/Focus weapons seems be quite good choice. Since sword has that short invulnerability (blurred frenzy), focus has pull (temporal curtain if activated). Gsword has knockback. My mesmer is glass cannonish, uses utilities like Decoy, Blink, Radiation field and mass invisibility and mesmers has quite good HP pool to begin with.
Tbh I enjoy fighting against thieves with it, since in a way you play with their rules but with having good damage even in range and ability to annoy them with all those clones.
Thief vs Thief doesn’t really happen that often, since usually first one to strike wins, especially if one who was attacked panics and if not, then both usually hides and leaves since either one doesn’t want to show up before other one.
Ranger though, at first I actually struggled with it most to fight against thiefs. Especially since I chose to go with dual bows (Short & Longbows), with glass cannonish build.
Nowadays I can most of the times either get a way myself or make them go away, simply when thief attacks I use lightning reflexes utility, especially if I’m stunned etc, if not then using “protect me” one to be saved for few first strikes. Then using entangle elite, and shooting Barrage where those vines end up showing.
7/10 cases thief gives up. 2/10 cases you either get away safely or fail thus dying and 1/10 thief actually fails and gets killed.
Haven’t played much with engineer thus can’t really say anything.
In my honest opinion, most cases if you got owned by thief, easily/fast, you were total glass cannon or just failed to be aware of your status / surroundings. Both cases you’re one to be blamed, since gear wise it was your personal choice and awareness is matter of concentration & knowledge.
Btw have any of you ever tried to play thief without stealths at all? It’s like playing class cannon ranger just with crippled version of short bow and less mobile 1handed sword, without pet. Pretty horrible.
Lvl 80 Warrior – Ranger – Thief – Elementalist – Mesmer – Guardian.
Switched Anet to Square E and haven’t regretted it even once.
Switched Anet to Square E and haven’t regretted it even once.
What if they changed Revealed so that it only makes thieves visible and indirectly targetable, while still otherwise treated as in stealth for backstab and traits, and then make it last much longer (30s or so). Then, since stealth is really the Thief’s main mechanic, you could convert the Thief’s special attribute to reduce Revealed length rather than Steal cooldown.
Alternatively, what if Stealth halted all initiative gain, so that if you burst off all your initiative and go into stealth, you pretty much can’t do anything but reposition and wait? Permastealth would be perma-useless, so you wouldn’t even have to worry much about balancing it.
Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam
What if they changed Revealed so that it only makes thieves visible and indirectly targetable, while still otherwise treated as in stealth for backstab and traits, and then make it last much longer (30s or so). Then, since stealth is really the Thief’s main mechanic, you could convert the Thief’s special attribute to reduce Revealed length rather than Steal cooldown.
Or maybe you might think about the fact, that Thief’s special attribute has nothing to do with stealth – it might be a hint that stealth is not being considered this class main mechanics.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
What if they changed Revealed so that it only makes thieves visible and indirectly targetable, while still otherwise treated as in stealth for backstab and traits, and then make it last much longer (30s or so). Then, since stealth is really the Thief’s main mechanic, you could convert the Thief’s special attribute to reduce Revealed length rather than Steal cooldown.
Or maybe you might think about the fact, that Thief’s special attribute has nothing to do with stealth – it might be a hint that stealth is not being considered this class main mechanics.
^ this.
Stealth isnt thieves’ mechanic, it is simpl an enhanced tool they have, their mechanics are highest amount of teleports in the game, (also, they have highest amount of blinds in the game too and also very high evade uptime, specially with the new buffed initiative)
[GoM] Gate of Madness Server Elementalist|Guardian
Legendary SoloQ
Legendary SoloQ
Thieves got a couple special attributes, not just Initiative. Thieves special attributes are :
- Initiative
- Dual Weapon skill #3
- Sneak attack that replaces skill #1 while in Stealth
- And of course, the as usual profession specific F1 skill
Please note that the 3rd special attribute of the thief class is inexistent without stealth.
Thieves got a couple special attributes, not just Initiative. Thieves special attributes are :
- Initiative
- Dual Weapon skill #3
- Sneak attack that replaces skill #1 while in Stealth
- And of course, the as usual profession specific F1 skillPlease note that the 3rd special attribute of the thief class is inexistent without stealth.
yah, and thats what needs tuning down, specially the 16k backstabs every 4 seconds…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9d4Og8KbEM
[GoM] Gate of Madness Server Elementalist|Guardian
Legendary SoloQ
Legendary SoloQ
Ranger though, at first I actually struggled with it most to fight against thiefs. Especially since I chose to go with dual bows (Short & Longbows), with glass cannonish build.
Nowadays I can most of the times either get a way myself or make them go away, simply when thief attacks I use lightning reflexes utility, especially if I’m stunned etc, if not then using “protect me” one to be saved for few first strikes. Then using entangle elite, and shooting Barrage where those vines end up showing.
7/10 cases thief gives up. 2/10 cases you either get away safely or fail thus dying and 1/10 thief actually fails and gets killed.
I really love Dual bow rangers in sPvP.
It need buffs though. Just replace Concussion shot with screaming shot. This would give an very short ranged AoE daze and a stun shot. This way, if a enemy ganks me, I can have the screaming shot ready to stop spikes from happening.
Then have barrage not be self-rooted while channeling. It will make Barrage become more versatile. It is currently used as a barrier or an aoe attack on clusters of enemies. Without the root, I can use it to escape and chase.
5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
I think that the steal function needs to be completely redesigned and the stealth access needs to be equal for all medium armor classes (either less for thieves, more for rangers/engineers, or a combination of more and less).
Thief survival should come from evades, not stealth.
Server: Devona’s Rest
I think that the steal function needs to be completely redesigned and the stealth access needs to be equal for all medium armor classes (either less for thieves, more for rangers/engineers, or a combination of more and less).
Thief survival should come from evades, not stealth.
And then we would be having a forum discussion on how Thieves have too many evades and its impossible to land an attack.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
I think that the steal function needs to be completely redesigned and the stealth access needs to be equal for all medium armor classes (either less for thieves, more for rangers/engineers, or a combination of more and less).
Thief survival should come from evades, not stealth.
And then we would be having a forum discussion on how Thieves have too many evades and its impossible to land an attack.
Timing evades requires player skill, especially against human opponents. Plus you can still see them which prevents them from simply resetting the fight if you gain the upper hand.
There will always be people who dislike a change, but people complaining about how they got outplayed by a guy who effectively timed evades shouldn’t be used as a reason to prevent good changes.
Server: Devona’s Rest
I think that the steal function needs to be completely redesigned and the stealth access needs to be equal for all medium armor classes (either less for thieves, more for rangers/engineers, or a combination of more and less).
Thief survival should come from evades, not stealth.
And then we would be having a forum discussion on how Thieves have too many evades and its impossible to land an attack.
Timing evades requires player skill, especially against human opponents. Plus you can still see them which prevents them from simply resetting the fight if you gain the upper hand.
There will always be people who dislike a change, but people complaining about how they got outplayed by a guy who effectively timed evades shouldn’t be used as a reason to prevent good changes.
[GoM] Gate of Madness Server Elementalist|Guardian
Legendary SoloQ
Legendary SoloQ
I think that the steal function needs to be completely redesigned and the stealth access needs to be equal for all medium armor classes (either less for thieves, more for rangers/engineers, or a combination of more and less).
Thief survival should come from evades, not stealth.
And then we would be having a forum discussion on how Thieves have too many evades and its impossible to land an attack.
Timing evades requires player skill, especially against human opponents. Plus you can still see them which prevents them from simply resetting the fight if you gain the upper hand.
There will always be people who dislike a change, but people complaining about how they got outplayed by a guy who effectively timed evades shouldn’t be used as a reason to prevent good changes.
Ummm you don’t really need to time your evades on a thief. You can get huge duration vigor and a trait that returns a portion of endurance on dodge that basically allows you to constantly dodge. You can then combine those with other evades(skill and utility), stealth, and blinds that make you incredibly annoying to land a hit on let alone kill. They aren’t a huge threat but if you’re not careful they will kill you via attrition. The thief class is just incredibly gimmicky and as those gimmicks get nerfed they aren’t be compensated with tools/buffs that allow them to compete without those gimmicks.
The problem is that the thief class will never be balanced. There are just too many bad design choices made in their base design. Initiative is a huge one since it’s hard to balance burst vs sustain when there are no cooldowns. You can see ArenaNet trying to fix this one in the next patch(still won’t fix the flaws with the system), something that was brought up in BETA and they ignored(my suggestion back then since a complete rework wasn’t possible is just removing initiative traits). Stealth is obviously another huge one, IMO I think stealth needs removed and more teleports added. That way thieves will be jumping around and hard to pin down but not invisible. Stealing is still an incredibly poor mechanic when compared to other classes that are defined by their class skill(s). I always thought venoms or traps would have been a far better class mechanic and just relegated steal as a utility. I could go on but there isn’t much of a point. ArenaNet takes forever to make small changes let alone a class rework.