Guild Wars 2

Being a scrub in MMO’s will always be underpowered*
btw i fixed the title

Deamhan.9538:

While in stealth, a thief should be impervious to damage. Getting hit physically produces 0 dmg. Thieves are also immune to the application of conditions but are also immune to the application of boons. Any current boons and conditions on the thief before they enter stealth continues to exist on them and effect them while in stealth. Thieves can not be healed while in stealth

You sure you play thief seriously?

You’re essentially saying that getting hit with a small stack of bleeds as a zerker thief should be death.

>Lol’d at “Regeneration should not affect thieves in stealth, but bleeds should”

If you want thieves to stealth less, give them active condi clear and more armor so that they dont get Full-hp-to-destruction’d by anything that isnt a slight breeze.

So it sounds like a common comment about stealth being particularly OP is the fact they can stealth and escape easily, no matter how many are around them. While it is a useful skill, I don’t see how that is OP. I mean, he’s not killing anyone by running away. So he’s decided to roam around trying to find someone to kill, things don’t go his way so he escapes. So what? Both parties are alive still, just continue on with your business.

Basically the ability to escape isn’t OP. Frustrating yes, and for some it may make their blood boil that the Thief narrowly escaped death. But OP it is not. It’s not like we have K/D ratios in this game.

JaeleCt.3967:

Andred.1087:

Centurion.7296:

There are alot of counters against stealth… l2p…

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention any of them.

Sic em, whatever the engie “sic em” is called, interrupting d/p HS in BP, pbaoe after they stealth, immoblizations, running in the opposite direction so they’re forced to use a shadowstep. block/aegis and dodgeing after you see aegis strip. there are likely more that im forgetting, be creative.

Dont complain about having to slot a skill specifically to counter a theif, we’ve had to slot daggerstorm ever since the RF buff just to have a chance of not dying immediatly to rangers.

Now that I play a thief, I can honestly say that those don’t work worth a kitten .

Sic’em? Can’t stop me from entering stealth. In fact, going into stealth will cancel the effect of the shout. Interrupts? That’s the beauty of the initiative system. Spam-ability. Interrupting is a temporary draw back. Blinding Powder also works no matter what state I’m in. I also hope that interrupt is a ranged one. Black powder will blind you and your attempt to interrupt my HS will miss. However, being D/P, I will probably be on you so even if you are ranged, my BP will still blind you and your ranged interrupt will still miss.

If you depend on DS to counter RF you are doing something wrong. Although I have an advantage here. I run dagger/pistol so Head Shot = RF canceled. Also don’t stealth on an RF. Dodge (twice if you have to) and then stealth. By the time you come back out your endurance should be good for one more dodge. Assuming you even need to the moment you come out.

I have far more warriors get away from me then thieves. For a thief to SR they have to stay in one spot for a few seconds, warriors just pull out their greatsword, scream HI HO SILVER AWAYYY and swirl and twirl all the way across the map with 2 skills. This game has the most balanced stealth out of any mmo imo. Thieves are much squishier than other stealth class such as rouges in wow which can survive just fine out of stealth. Thieves would be almost useless without it in this.

Deamhan.9538:

JaeleCt.3967:

Andred.1087:

Centurion.7296:

There are alot of counters against stealth… l2p…

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention any of them.

Sic em, whatever the engie “sic em” is called, interrupting d/p HS in BP, pbaoe after they stealth, immoblizations, running in the opposite direction so they’re forced to use a shadowstep. block/aegis and dodgeing after you see aegis strip. there are likely more that im forgetting, be creative.

Dont complain about having to slot a skill specifically to counter a theif, we’ve had to slot daggerstorm ever since the RF buff just to have a chance of not dying immediatly to rangers.

Now that I play a thief, I can honestly say that those don’t work worth a kitten .

Sic’em? Can’t stop me from entering stealth. In fact, going into stealth will cancel the effect of the shout. Interrupts? That’s the beauty of the initiative system. Spam-ability. Interrupting is a temporary draw back. Blinding Powder also works no matter what state I’m in. I also hope that interrupt is a ranged one. Black powder will blind you and your attempt to interrupt my HS will miss. However, being D/P, I will probably be on you so even if you are ranged, my BP will still blind you and your ranged interrupt will still miss.

If you depend on DS to counter RF you are doing something wrong. Although I have an advantage here. I run dagger/pistol so Head Shot = RF canceled. Also don’t stealth on an RF. Dodge (twice if you have to) and then stealth. By the time you come back out your endurance should be good for one more dodge. Assuming you even need to the moment you come out.

be my guess
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark

Deamhan.9538:

JaeleCt.3967:

Andred.1087:

Centurion.7296:

There are alot of counters against stealth… l2p…

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention any of them.

Sic em, whatever the engie “sic em” is called, interrupting d/p HS in BP, pbaoe after they stealth, immoblizations, running in the opposite direction so they’re forced to use a shadowstep. block/aegis and dodgeing after you see aegis strip. there are likely more that im forgetting, be creative.

Dont complain about having to slot a skill specifically to counter a theif, we’ve had to slot daggerstorm ever since the RF buff just to have a chance of not dying immediatly to rangers.

Now that I play a thief, I can honestly say that those don’t work worth a kitten .

Sic’em? Can’t stop me from entering stealth. In fact, going into stealth will cancel the effect of the shout. Interrupts? That’s the beauty of the initiative system. Spam-ability. Interrupting is a temporary draw back. Blinding Powder also works no matter what state I’m in. I also hope that interrupt is a ranged one. Black powder will blind you and your attempt to interrupt my HS will miss. However, being D/P, I will probably be on you so even if you are ranged, my BP will still blind you and your ranged interrupt will still miss.

If you depend on DS to counter RF you are doing something wrong. Although I have an advantage here. I run dagger/pistol so Head Shot = RF canceled. Also don’t stealth on an RF. Dodge (twice if you have to) and then stealth. By the time you come back out your endurance should be good for one more dodge. Assuming you even need to the moment you come out.

You sound like a thief that is constantly in need of initiative, if I can be frank. I’m having trouble taking you seriously, seeing as how most of your examples that stealth is overpowered require draining most of, if not all of your initiative bar.

Mind posting a build so I can better weigh your opinion?

Deamhan.9538:

JaeleCt.3967:

Andred.1087:

Centurion.7296:

There are alot of counters against stealth… l2p…

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention any of them.

Sic em, whatever the engie “sic em” is called, interrupting d/p HS in BP, pbaoe after they stealth, immoblizations, running in the opposite direction so they’re forced to use a shadowstep. block/aegis and dodgeing after you see aegis strip. there are likely more that im forgetting, be creative.

Dont complain about having to slot a skill specifically to counter a theif, we’ve had to slot daggerstorm ever since the RF buff just to have a chance of not dying immediatly to rangers.

Now that I play a thief, I can honestly say that those don’t work worth a kitten .

Sic’em? Can’t stop me from entering stealth. In fact, going into stealth will cancel the effect of the shout. Interrupts? That’s the beauty of the initiative system. Spam-ability. Interrupting is a temporary draw back. Blinding Powder also works no matter what state I’m in. I also hope that interrupt is a ranged one. Black powder will blind you and your attempt to interrupt my HS will miss. However, being D/P, I will probably be on you so even if you are ranged, my BP will still blind you and your ranged interrupt will still miss.

If you depend on DS to counter RF you are doing something wrong. Although I have an advantage here. I run dagger/pistol so Head Shot = RF canceled. Also don’t stealth on an RF. Dodge (twice if you have to) and then stealth. By the time you come back out your endurance should be good for one more dodge. Assuming you even need to the moment you come out.

sic em works for 4 seconds at least. it puts revealed on you, it has to work. also as far as i can tell the steal daze still works in BP as long as you time it between pulses.

you also must be better than the majority of theives running b/p, everytime ive interrupted one attempting the bp/hs they panic and die.

DS is mainly used vs a ranger RFing if i didnt notice they were there before the engagement, and for watching bad rangers kill themselves hilariously.

i guess i also should have mentioned the directest of counters to any theif. friggin mediguards.

the fact is stealth and theives in general are OP verse specific classes, and garbage vs others. this is a game of RPS, nothing beats everything, everything has a weakness. until a class absolutely kitten’s on every class imaginable (like very early game D/D theives) its not OP

JaeleCt.3967:

mediguards.

Ah yes. Thief-death-on-a-stick.

I’d like to hear the “condis affect you but healing doesnt in short stealth” applied to burning spam.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

If you want thieves to stealth less, give them active condi clear and more armor so that they dont get Full-hp-to-destruction’d by anything that isnt a slight breeze.

Yes I do play thief, but by the quoted comment above I question if you do.

Knight’s Armor
Zerker Trinkets
Assassin’s Weapons

Melandru’s Runes
Lemongrass food
Oil Utility

Sigils that give bonus to crit chance and stack vulnerability.

0/6/6/0/2

Practiced Tolerance, Ankle Shot, Invigorating Precision
Shadow’s Embrace, Hidden Thief, Shadow Rejuvenation
Thrill of the Crime

D/P + SB

Conditions are not a problem (especially bleed lol) thanks to Melandru Runes + Lemongrass + Shadow’s Embrace + being able to stealth when ever revealed wears off (assuming I even attack from stealth).
Sticking to the enemy like glue is also not a problem
Pretty much a 100% crit chance (works well with Invigorating Precision)
Knight’s + Melandru Rune + Practiced Tolerance means I don’t die from a single burst.
I still do as much damage as my other professions who require more survivability since they don’t have stealth as a crutch.

Don’t make your build a glass one and you won’t insta-down and lose this self entitlement that the enemy should be the one to insta-down from a single burst from you.

JaeleCt.3967:

Deamhan.9538:

JaeleCt.3967:

Andred.1087:

Centurion.7296:

There are alot of counters against stealth… l2p…

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention any of them.

Sic em, whatever the engie “sic em” is called, interrupting d/p HS in BP, pbaoe after they stealth, immoblizations, running in the opposite direction so they’re forced to use a shadowstep. block/aegis and dodgeing after you see aegis strip. there are likely more that im forgetting, be creative.

Dont complain about having to slot a skill specifically to counter a theif, we’ve had to slot daggerstorm ever since the RF buff just to have a chance of not dying immediatly to rangers.

Now that I play a thief, I can honestly say that those don’t work worth a kitten .

Sic’em? Can’t stop me from entering stealth. In fact, going into stealth will cancel the effect of the shout. Interrupts? That’s the beauty of the initiative system. Spam-ability. Interrupting is a temporary draw back. Blinding Powder also works no matter what state I’m in. I also hope that interrupt is a ranged one. Black powder will blind you and your attempt to interrupt my HS will miss. However, being D/P, I will probably be on you so even if you are ranged, my BP will still blind you and your ranged interrupt will still miss.

If you depend on DS to counter RF you are doing something wrong. Although I have an advantage here. I run dagger/pistol so Head Shot = RF canceled. Also don’t stealth on an RF. Dodge (twice if you have to) and then stealth. By the time you come back out your endurance should be good for one more dodge. Assuming you even need to the moment you come out.

sic em works for 4 seconds at least. it puts revealed on you, it has to work.

My most developed and played character is my ranger. However, I use a survival build and don’t bother with shouts. I always assumed that the reveal was a drawback on the pet so it couldn’t be used in condition with Guard. So I basically went off the Gw2 wiki which states

“The effect will end prematurely if a shout is used, the pet is given an order, the pet falls in battle, or the pet’s target becomes invisible or defeated.”

Which probably refers to the fact that the buff on the pet lasts longer than the reveal. Good to know.

I did toy with a shout build once.

Weapon Set: S/Wh
Skills: Sic’em, Guard, Protect Me, Rampage as One (made me wish this elite was a shout)
Traits: Shout Master, Nature’s Voice
Runes: Trooper

Gains: Perma swiftness and almost perma regen to yourself and nearby allies. Take no damage depending on Pet status. Reveal on enemy.

Drawbacks: Only one stun break (my survival has two). Only one condi removed per shout for a total of three (my survival can remove up to six). Less Fury. Less burst with no QZ.

Edit: I can’t believe I forgot the biggest drawback. Shout range is way too short.

Deamhan.9538:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

If you want thieves to stealth less, give them active condi clear and more armor so that they dont get Full-hp-to-destruction’d by anything that isnt a slight breeze.

Yes I do play thief, but by the quoted comment above I question if you do.

Knight’s Armor
Zerker Trinkets
Assassin’s Weapons

Melandru’s Runes
Lemongrass food
Oil Utility

Sigils that give bonus to crit chance and stack vulnerability.

0/6/6/0/2

Practiced Tolerance, Ankle Shot, Invigorating Precision
Shadow’s Embrace, Hidden Thief, Shadow Rejuvenation
Thrill of the Crime

D/P + SB

Conditions are not a problem (especially bleed lol) thanks to Melandru Runes + Lemongrass + Shadow’s Embrace + being able to stealth when ever revealed wears off (assuming I even attack from stealth).
Sticking to the enemy like glue is also not a problem
Pretty much a 100% crit chance (works well with Invigorating Precision)
Knight’s + Melandru Rune + Practiced Tolerance means I don’t die from a single burst.
I still do as much damage as my other professions who require more survivability since they don’t have stealth as a crutch.

Don’t make your build a glass one and you won’t insta-down and lose this self entitlement that the enemy should be the one to insta-down from a single burst from you.

Couple things.

Watch what you assume. I do run zerker, that much is true, but because I enjoy the high risk, high reward/intimidation factor that comes with that, not because “1shot everything lol.” Not every zerker is a dps-elite; intimidation from watching HP drops is a foundation of strategies around said builds.

What I was trying to point out to you was that your proposed “Fix” to stealth did more harm than good to builds that laid outside your own. I was not questioning how well -you- did against bleeds, but how well your proposed fix did against them.

Also, I run about the same as you. Sometimes I swap out ToTC for Fleet shadow and I run executioner instead if I am not running Deadly Arts, but the core of our builds seems to be the same.

The combat scenarios I was focusing on were PVP oriented, although I do roam from time to time. in PVP, lemongrass does not exist and, seeing as how I run scholar instead of melandru, my build specifically relies on stealth for condi clearing DoTs that would be fatal.

And for the record, even with knight armor in WVW, thieves have a medium health pool and suffer against heavies/Steamrolling Elementalists. I concede that you have an idea what you are doing as far as WVW is concerned, but I still find it strange that you’d fail to take into account that your suggestion cripples thieves that run anything moderately different to the build you do.

Thanks for providing the context I needed, though.

sorudo.9054:

be my guess
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark

My oldest and second most developed character is my necro. I’ll admit, I’ve used that skill a fair bit against SR and it can work but it is by far a guarantee.

The thief will run away from you. So if they are at the edge of SR toward you and you don’t have fear traited, it’ll wear off before they run out the far side of SR. Melandru + Lemongrass for reduced duration on it helps with this as well. If Shadow’s Embrace happens to tick as soon as the mark is triggered then bye bye fear condition. Then there is being able to place it quickly enough. I have necros place it on me while in SR and by the time I run out of SR, the duration is up on the field and I’m good to go. Reaction time, Cast time, swapping weapons if not out already…

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Shortening Quote

Are you sure? I’ll admit, I left out what utilities I use.

Heal Skill: Hide in Shadows
Utilities: Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Signet of Shadows
Elite: Dagger Storm (not for the reflect, kinda for stability, but really for the “OMG the loot bags”) Nothing quite like using DS with 100% crit chance + Invigorating Precision on top a necro well (Dark) in the middle of an enemy zerg.

I also left out Applied Fortitude and Strength (I know, not in PvP). Between Practiced Tolerance + Applied Fortitude + Runes of Melandru and I have pretty good hp.

I have Stealing traited for stealth.

I make good use of stealth, I taited to get good benefit from being in stealth and I have many ways to enter steath. All for good reason. It is OP.

Let’s look at it this way:

Where is Stealth?

Game Modes (Sorted on my understanding of how commonly played they are):

PVE: Stealth is only useful for running (just about) You want a thief in your party for blinds, not for stealth.
WvW (Zerg or Blob): Laughably meaningless
SPvP (Conquest): Shadow Refuge has some uses; You can’t cap with stealth but you can disengage. Honestly not great, but useful in 1 on 1’s. PU mesmers, imo, apply and use invis better than thieves use stealth.
SPvP (Courtyard): Almost never 1-1 and lots of random ae. Stealth or no, thieves aren’t great in this.
WvW (Roamer): Strong, if the opponent is alone you can get a really good spike (but not better than a surprise RapidFire from a RTW ranger), and you can always get away.
WvW (GvG): I honestly don’t know this one

I’m happy to be corrected on any of these usages of course.

~~~ so, stealth is ‘eh’ or worthless in most of the commonly played modes of the game but is really strong in open-world 1v1’s (that rarely have an impact outside of winning and losing the particular fight?)

The questions then are:

1) Do we need to rebalance stealth in a relatively lightly played, unsupported playstyle at the risk of making it worse in modes where its already weak?
2) Where it is particularly strong (roaming) does the fact that very few roaming battles effect map goals matter to the discussion?

ArenaNet knows it. But thief players always go into a rampage when someone mentions nerfing stealth, so it’s unlikely that ArenaNet will ever remove it.

Truth be said, stealth is a very poor mechanic, but the rogue archetype is also very poor. It doesn’t really fit a game like GW2, in which there’s a strong focus on playing with other people. It’s no wonder that many of those who want duels in the game are thief players.

Stealth will always be op not because of the things you have mentioned ,but because sight is the sense that we trust the most, especially in games. Hence the saying “I’ll believe it when I see it.”

The inability to see something is one of the most wide spread fears. Its the main reason behind most fear of darkness as well.

Its the reason people often complain about games with bad camera angles. Because it is hard to react to things you can’t see.

So for the a lot of players if a Thief goes stealth on them they exhibit fear symptoms and their planning and decision making abilities suffer massively. They then proceed to throw out aoes all around in panic and suffer reduced morale.

Invisibility is the biggest mind game of all.

And that is why invisibility will always be op.

gaspara.4079:

Invisibility is the biggest mind game of all.

And that is why invisibility will always be op.

Isnt that the whole point of the class, though?

High skill floor, High skill ceiling, squishy class with very little damage mitigation besides several fleeting seconds of asking the opponent to guess where said player might be sounds like a decent trade off to me.

Unless you’re willing to armor the thieves better or give them visible damage mitigation, as I mentioned before. That’s also fine.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

gaspara.4079:

Invisibility is the biggest mind game of all.

And that is why invisibility will always be op.

Isnt that the whole point of the class, though?

High skill floor, High skill ceiling, squishy class with very little damage mitigation besides several fleeting seconds of asking the opponent to guess where said player might be sounds like a decent trade off to me.

Unless you’re willing to armor the thieves better or give them visible damage mitigation, as I mentioned before. That’s also fine.

Believe it or not despite my post I am actually in favor of not changing Thieves as long as dueling is never added to the game.

Stealth will always give them the advantage in 1v1 combat but that is ok currently because the game is not designed around 1v1 balanced combat except in sPvP where being stealthed prevents them from counting towards point capture so that advantage is negated.

The only other thing I think should happen is that every class including Thief should have access to something that procs revealed but is not part of any of the current meta builds to encourage more build diversity.

Windsagio.1340:

Let’s look at it this way:

Where is Stealth?

Game Modes (Sorted on my understanding of how commonly played they are):

PVE: Stealth is only useful for running (just about) You want a thief in your party for blinds, not for stealth.
WvW (Zerg or Blob): Laughably meaningless
SPvP (Conquest): Shadow Refuge has some uses; You can’t cap with stealth but you can disengage. Honestly not great, but useful in 1 on 1’s. PU mesmers, imo, apply and use invis better than thieves use stealth.
SPvP (Courtyard): Almost never 1-1 and lots of random ae. Stealth or no, thieves aren’t great in this.
WvW (Roamer): Strong, if the opponent is alone you can get a really good spike (but not better than a surprise RapidFire from a RTW ranger), and you can always get away.
WvW (GvG): I honestly don’t know this one

I’m happy to be corrected on any of these usages of course.

~~~ so, stealth is ‘eh’ or worthless in most of the commonly played modes of the game but is really strong in open-world 1v1’s (that rarely have an impact outside of winning and losing the particular fight?)

The questions then are:

1) Do we need to rebalance stealth in a relatively lightly played, unsupported playstyle at the risk of making it worse in modes where its already weak?
2) Where it is particularly strong (roaming) does the fact that very few roaming battles effect map goals matter to the discussion?

People are just raging here when they killed by a thief or two on their way back to the blob in WvW.

I really don’t see stealth being that annoying outside of that situation.

There is nothing wrong with stealth.

Despite stealth’s extremes it is balanced by the various other extremes associated with it. Those who defend stealth understand this because they know the removal of stealth’s extremes is going to turn it into a worthless mechanic and hurt everything it touches. They know that post-balance changes after stealth is “balanced” would require overhauls in different parts of the game, and as such would be too large of a resource cost just to appease a minority while keeping the game balanced between everything. But these people are not exclusively thief mains either.

Likewise, there are people who do not understand this and think that balance problems can be solved simply by removing the extremes. Those who do understand can easily spot these players which is why those defending stealth always end up becoming condescending to those attacking it.

So to reply to the topic: Stealth is only OP on a personal basis, not overall.

JaeleCt.3967:

Andred.1087:

Centurion.7296:

There are alot of counters against stealth… l2p…

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention any of them.

Sic em, whatever the engie “sic em” is called, interrupting d/p HS in BP, pbaoe after they stealth, immoblizations, running in the opposite direction so they’re forced to use a shadowstep. block/aegis and dodgeing after you see aegis strip. there are likely more that im forgetting, be creative.

Dont complain about having to slot a skill specifically to counter a theif, we’ve had to slot daggerstorm ever since the RF buff just to have a chance of not dying immediatly to rangers.

Or, you know, you could dodge three times with your precious feline grace trait and dodge the entirety of the RF channel.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Invoker.5462:

Stealth is = but less offensively viable than complete invulnerability, allows you to fight on you’re terms, has no immediate counter skill (no ability to keep someone from stealthing or to reveal stealth players) thus making it one of those abilities thats always safe to use. And as an added bonus- gives you time to think about you’re next move (clockless chess). This is why stealth/invisibility as a mechanic will always be overpowered.

A couple of things.

1) You will need to explain on what terms stealth is “widely accepted as not being see[n] anymore.”

2.) Stealth is not clockless chess in GW2. As was stated above, the traits that favor stealth as a mechanic all sacrifice damage output in exchange for longer duration. Most stealths last less than three seconds unassisted, with the minor outlier having an interruptible cast time and Shadow Refuge essentially marking a wide circle with “here is where the thief is hiding.”

3.) It is not equal to invulnerability in any respect, because stealthed players can be downed, killed, have condis applied, and take damage like regular players.

4.) [Sic em] and [Utility Goggles] are direct counters to stealth. Other less noticible counterplay include using illusionary wave, PBS, or another knockback skill to cripple Shadow Refuge stealth due to the fact that projectiles track if initiated before the target lock is lost.

5.) Stealth is not always safe to use. Feathers cause an effect that show a thief is in the area, as do blinding powder and SR. Hide in shadows does not, but it has a cast time.

6.) Thieves are all about positioning and using circumstance/terrain and strategy to down players. That is an inherent feature of their class, not a symptom of bad design. They cannot facetank much of anything, less so if they are not Shadow Arts Specced. They have no invulns, no blocks. Everything they have as active defense borders on stealth or evades (That cost them initiative, which they also need to attack).

IMO, I don’t think its overpowered at all. I play both a warrior and a thief, and going from a person that only played warrior into thief gave me a newfound respect for all the junk thieves have to put up with to be more than a nuisance, especially against tanky warriors.

As much as i enjoyed your narrow minded response based on theives (its ok, everyone here thinks this a thief thread). I’m going to jot a bit on a more contextual note.

Stealth- invisibility- whatever.

Lets think about what it means to be a skilled player. How do you want to be skilled? Do you want to be the type of player who has a quick wit, the twitchy nature to be able to block or counter the swing of a sword mid swing?

Or maybe you’re the type of person who looks at the bigger picture- an overwatch. You’re strategy makes up for your lack of twitch skills because you know exactly what the enemy is thinking. In fact- you’ve already set traps and know precisely what your enemy is about to do.

Lets dive a bit deeper, stay with me…

PVP combat, in its most basic skillfull form, can be found a fantastic and long lived title known as Mount&Blade Warband. In Mount and Blade you control the swing of your sword by its direction (up, down, left right) and the direction to parry (up, down, left, right)..

TingTing- thats the noise you hear when two skillfull players begin fighting. Parry after parry.. But wait, this can’t go on forever can it? Don’t worry, there’s also a mechanic to feign a swing, basically swing halfway then stop to fool the enemy. This, combined with tricky body movements, ends with a victor usually within about 40 seconds at the highest skill level. (most player’s are dead within 10 seconds, as they have not practiced their ability to parry)

This is how i see the basis of all combat in every game. Someone swings, other’s respond, and its a good old back and forth fight until the winner comes out on top.

But what happens when you can’t see the other person swinging? What if you don’t know he’s there at all? How can you possibly even begin to plan around something you don’t even know exists? Seeing is half the battle- is it not? What if the entire sword swinging mechanism was entirely invisible.. Every move, every play, gone from sight.

Welcome to stealth/invisibility in MMO’s

I could go on and on. I hope you get the point by now- and stop talking about thieves.

Akagami.9861:

But in Guild Wars 2, the stealth a thief has is really subjective, it depends if the thief concentrates havenly on stealth but has lower dmg, or shorter stealth and higher dmg.

Also, yes you can be attacked, hit, knocked down, dazed, everything while stealth.
You want to say that Stealth is almost invulnerability?… well maybe it is, maybe it’s not…and from my PvP experience is not… but think about this the other way around:

The Defense and HP a Thief has is high enough that it won’t die from another players spit. All it takes is 1 stun, and maybe 1 small mistake on thiefs part and BOOM dead.

I’ve been killed more times than i care to remember in stealth,

and in the end, stealth means nothing if you don’t know how to play the class.

Enemy able to see the thief while in stealth? Bomm done…ruined class that no one will ever play, why? cause its amazingly easy to die with a thief even in PvE if you’re not paying attention.

Do you know what is overpower?(well maybe not but it’s certainly something annoying) Mesmers with thousands of exploding illusions….how can you kill the enemy if he is surrounded by hundreds of clones that explode when you destroy them…in the end either i stop persuing cause of my hp…or the mesmer manages to escape.

Also try taking an interest point from an engi with tourets…i dare you,i double dare you.

Also some guardians? imposible to kill…I mean…how much hp can one have, how many heals?

Elementalists? don’t even get me started….most i encountered werent great…but there were a few amazing ones, that ele has everything quite a spectacular class.

Warrior with the “No damage buff” ? you’re happy if you escape before he stuns you or knocks you down.

Necromancer? Don’t even get me started…that demonic form or whatever that saves his behind untill reinforcements come? charming

And in the end, playing against another thief? I have the most fun right there…

I understand you hate thieves, but every class has that one annoying thing for every other class. Just cause you can’t deal with thieves, doesn’t mean we’re overpowerd….we’ve been nerfed to the center of the earth

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention Ranger…

It’s a L2P issue. I main thief, so even if i play other classes, I can identify thief tactics based on their weapon set. You need to play thief to understand and predict their actions. Aside from the infamous dire p/d thief, most thieves can’t deal with pressure, even with their on-demand stealth (d/p).

I don’t pvp much at all, most of my experiences are from actual fights in wvw; roaming/ duels, and outnumbered fights. Thieves can seem op but actually there’s alot of builds that can counter them. For instance, most thieves can’t take multiple mace stuns from warriors. Infact, even when I don’t use berserker, I find myself at an immense disadvantage.

The only thieves you need to worry about are the ones that use their shadow refuge when they aren’t low, because they are likely more skilled and try to finish you quickly (PvP oriented thieves). Aside from that, you can always switch to a more overpowered build to run them over. On my elementalist, i try to burst thieves down quickly and make them use their utility skills quickly. At that point, they’ll either use SR (Shadow refuge), which you use skills on your class to pull them out or drop heavy aoe load. Majority of the thieves, will either try to reengage after their health recovers, run away, or perhaps in their downed state.

It’s up to you to really know how to vs a thief, if you played once and vs’d other players and if they happen to be any decent, you’ll know they aren’t op even with their near 100% stealth uptime in combat.

OP’s a little combative, eh?

~~~

Anyhoo, the vast majority of people in this thread, who play pvp and pve seem to agree that the OP’s point is invalid for the simple reason that stealth isn’t all that amazingly strong in most parts of the game.

Not really anywhere to go with the discussion from there

I don’t think Stealth is OP, it’s such a mechanic that Thieves has multiple entries into stealth, they can disengage and be back to full health out of nowhere – thanks to the Shadow Arts traitline .

It’s also easy to counter, once you’re revealed the Thief is vulnerable, unless you’re specced to be tanky, which means that Thief will have less Burst and DPS, which is counter productive to the strengths that thieves has: Mobilty, Stealth and Burst.

Upon entering stealth Thieves can still be hit by telegraphed attacks such as rapid fire, stealth does not make a Thief invulnerable nor do we gain any Boons from entering stealth, apart from being invisible to the eye, but you can damage a thief or interrupt them before they enter stealth if you know their rotations well enough.

Invoker.5462:

As much as i enjoyed your narrow minded response based on theives (its ok, everyone here thinks this a thief thread). I’m going to jot a bit on a more contextual note.

Stealth- invisibility- whatever.

Lets think about what it means to be a skilled player. How do you want to be skilled? Do you want to be the type of player who has a quick wit, the twitchy nature to be able to block or counter the swing of a sword mid swing?

Or maybe you’re the type of person who looks at the bigger picture- an overwatch. You’re strategy makes up for your lack of twitch skills because you know exactly what the enemy is thinking. In fact- you’ve already set traps and know precisely what your enemy is about to do.

Lets dive a bit deeper, stay with me…

PVP combat, in its most basic skillfull form, can be found a fantastic and long lived title known as Mount&Blade Warband. In Mount and Blade you control the swing of your sword by its direction (up, down, left right) and the direction to parry (up, down, left, right)..

TingTing- thats the noise you hear when two skillfull players begin fighting. Parry after parry.. But wait, this can’t go on forever can it? Don’t worry, there’s also a mechanic to feign a swing, basically swing halfway then stop to fool the enemy. This, combined with tricky body movements, ends with a victor usually within about 40 seconds at the highest skill level. (most player’s are dead within 10 seconds, as they have not practiced their ability to parry)

This is how i see the basis of all combat in every game. Someone swings, other’s respond, and its a good old back and forth fight until the winner comes out on top.

But what happens when you can’t see the other person swinging? What if you don’t know he’s there at all? How can you possibly even begin to plan around something you don’t even know exists? Seeing is half the battle- is it not? What if the entire sword swinging mechanism was entirely invisible.. Every move, every play, gone from sight.

Welcome to stealth/invisibility in MMO’s

I could go on and on. I hope you get the point by now- and stop talking about thieves.

Your stance is noted, and your adorable assertion that my response was narrow minded because I mentioned only one class that uses it as a mechanic is also noted. I really wish the first action taken against people that present an alternative viewpoint in good nature was not a flat insult, it really cheapens the quality of the argument.

I don’t agree that mount and blade is “basic skillful pvp” judging from what I’ve seen in terms of gameplay, so it appears that we have different viewpoints on what constitutes skill.

That being said, even if seeing was half of the battle, the other half would depend on either strategy or reflex would it not? Invisibility turns what is considered conventional combat on its head, yes; but for GW2 that’s a good thing.

Interestingly, the “response” option you think is missing in response to someone who is stealthed performing “swinging” is still there. It just requires a bit of pre-combat planning to the tune of “how will I deal with x invisible class if they drop in on me?”

Not all combat needs to be cemented in good old “I attack, you block.” Responding to an emergency enemy appearance/mugging has been handled really well with the stealth mechanic, IMO.

Those who say permastealthing thieves are not OP because they’re not doing anything have apparently never chased two of them around your keep/castle for a couple of hours.

In theory it’s balanced really well in GW2. To stealth, a Thief or Mesmer has to seriously commit to stealth, not only using up traits on it but also utility slots which could have been used on damage support.

In other words they might be stealthy but they deal less damage, ruining the alpha strike off-stealth-killer issue other games have.

Tom Gore.4035:

Those who say permastealthing thieves are not OP because they’re not doing anything have apparently never chased two of them around your keep/castle for a couple of hours.

You are correct. Alot of those people have killed them.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Tom Gore.4035:

Those who say permastealthing thieves are not OP because they’re not doing anything have apparently never chased two of them around your keep/castle for a couple of hours.

You are correct. Alot of those people have killed them.

Yeah, usually with the help of stealth traps and at least double the manpower compared to the amount of thieves.

Anything less and the thieves weren’t very good.

Stop pretending it’s ok for a couple of players being able to avoid getting killed by 4+ players for 10+ minutes.

You sure you don’t main a thief yourself?

Tom Gore.4035:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Tom Gore.4035:

Those who say permastealthing thieves are not OP because they’re not doing anything have apparently never chased two of them around your keep/castle for a couple of hours.

You are correct. Alot of those people have killed them.

Yeah, usually with the help of stealth traps and at least double the manpower compared to the amount of thieves.

Anything less and the thieves weren’t very good.

Stop pretending it’s ok for a couple of players being able to avoid getting killed by 4+ players for 10+ minutes.

You sure you don’t main a thief yourself?

I did, but I started maining ele once I realized how much thief lacked in the role department. Ele puts way more on the table and does it’s job much better than thief could ever manage.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Tom Gore.4035:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Tom Gore.4035:

Those who say permastealthing thieves are not OP because they’re not doing anything have apparently never chased two of them around your keep/castle for a couple of hours.

You are correct. Alot of those people have killed them.

Yeah, usually with the help of stealth traps and at least double the manpower compared to the amount of thieves.

Anything less and the thieves weren’t very good.

Stop pretending it’s ok for a couple of players being able to avoid getting killed by 4+ players for 10+ minutes.

You sure you don’t main a thief yourself?

I did, but I started maining ele once I realized how much thief lacked in the role department. Ele puts way more on the table and does it’s job much better than thief could ever manage.

I agree with that sentiment. That’s why my thief is also mostly sitting on the sidelines. However, good luck ninjaing a keep with your Ele, which is what I argued against.

I have no issues with stealth being an offensive and defensive tool. My only gripe is permastealth in WvW, because it can tie way too much resources around hunting 1-2 players trying to hide in a captured keep/castle. That’s why I suggested that stealth stacking would be removed. It would still be a powerful combat ability, but it would remove most of the problems of risk-free engaging/disengaging and being able to run half a dozen players around the map all by yourself.

No! stealth in mmo are not Op because they make stealth challenge except in Guild Wars 2 so far.

You say blizzard name?, here is Blizzard rogue stealth description..tell me where is Stealth “Op”? Also, many other mmo game company stealth class/job/profession follow similar stealth description like Blizzard. Yes, i play wow with other mmo game with stealth.

Rogue;

“1. Stealth is a core rogue ability learned at level five. It prevents other creatures from detecting the stealthed player unless particularly close.
2. Stealth is no longer broken due to falling damage, unless of course it kills the stealthed unit. However, fire damage from camp fires will still reveal it.
3. Stealth is not invisibility. You can be detected by others. Monsters that detect you may stop in their tracks and turn to face you, or attack you directly. Players that detect you will hear a sound, and will be able to target you. The chance of detection increases as you get closer, but also depends on the viewing angle (stand right in front of an enemy and you can guarantee they’ll see you), the relative levels, and any perception or subtlety modifiers.
4. Taking any action such as looting or attacking will remove stealth. There are a few exceptions, such as [Distract], or [Pick Pocket]. Also as of patch 2.1.0, sapping an opponent does not remove the rogue’s stealth.
5. Most damage taken (including from AoEs or DoTs) will remove Stealth. However, fall damage will NOT remove Stealth.
6. Fear AoE’s and certain other AoE’s will remove Stealth.
7. Enemies much higher in level will tend to see through Stealth from quite a distance
8. Enemies you are in front of will see through Stealth as you get closer.
9. You cannot enter stealth while in combat. However, Rogues can use [Vanish] to equivalent effect. Note that if you have a DoT the Stealth will break the next time it damages you.
10. It is possible to eat and enter stealth, to reduce your chance of being seen while eating. This is useful, especially during PvP, where a certain crit can be fatal, or when going afk for a few minutes while restoring health”

Comparing to WoW stealth is stupid, because in WoW you cannot restealth in combat save for a long cooldown ability. WoW stealth also breaks when you’re hit or take DoT damage.

Tom Gore.4035:

Comparing to WoW stealth is stupid, because in WoW you cannot restealth in combat save for a long cooldown ability. WoW stealth also breaks when you’re hit or take DoT damage.

If you take time to read my post, i am not comparing wow stealth, i am explain how stealth work in wow. Also if you understand my post instead of rushing to answer; i mention other mmo game having similar stealth like blizzard.

Last; other mmo game company make stealth challenge fun. Fun is good, not bad.

Is it wrong to make stealth challenge=fun?

Best laugh I had was someone mentioning ‘sic em’. Like any ranger will put this on their bar on the off chance that there is a thief on the other team, and that the skill will actually hit, and even if it does that the thief is running a build that needs stealth that much (pvp thiefs rely much more on blinds etc than stealth, removing stealth for a whole 4 seconds is a huge waste of a utility spot).

DarkSyze.8627:

Tom Gore.4035:

Comparing to WoW stealth is stupid, because in WoW you cannot restealth in combat save for a long cooldown ability. WoW stealth also breaks when you’re hit or take DoT damage.

If you take time to read my post, i am not comparing wow stealth, i am explain how stealth work in wow. Also if you understand my post instead of rushing to answer; i mention other mmo game having similar stealth like blizzard.

Blizzard stealth is still OP because it allows the rogue to open up combat always at their terms (and often having the enemy at a disadvantage to begin with), and disengage from any fight that is going badly for them, again catering to no risk high rewards style gameplay.

Tom Gore.4035:

Comparing to WoW stealth is stupid, because in WoW you cannot restealth in combat save for a long cooldown ability. WoW stealth also breaks when you’re hit or take DoT damage.

WoW stealth is fine and what it should be.
GW2 stealth is op, cmon a class that have so many escape options + teleports + stealth with an autoattack that doing more than 50% dmg of your hp in one hit is just bullkitten. Plus HS doing 5k and you can even spam it. And thats the class that you can safely go full bers with no drawbacks.
This class need CD’s or cost more intiative plus removing backstab from autoattack. It just need revamp. Who ever thought to make a class that can stealth almost every few secs with avesome burst and autoattack and escape mechanism needs an Oscar for making that class. I even tried it with lv 5 thief in wvw and ended up killing 4 ppl in 5 mins of roaming LOL.

Ragnarox.9601:

Tom Gore.4035:

Comparing to WoW stealth is stupid, because in WoW you cannot restealth in combat save for a long cooldown ability. WoW stealth also breaks when you’re hit or take DoT damage.

WoW stealth is fine and what it should be.
GW2 stealth is op, cmon a class that have so many escape options + teleports + stealth with an autoattack that doing more than 50% dmg of your hp in one hit is just bullkitten. Plus HS doing 5k and you can even spam it. And thats the class that you can safely go full bers with no drawbacks.
This class need CD’s or cost more intiative plus removing backstab from autoattack. It just need revamp. Who ever thought to make a class that can stealth almost every few secs with avesome burst and autoattack and escape mechanism needs an Oscar for making that class. I even tried it with lv 5 thief in wvw and ended up killing 4 ppl in 5 mins of roaming LOL.

Yeah but we all know the devs are not going to do a complete redesign of stealth. Which is why I suggested just removing stealth stacking. That would still keep stealth a viable mechanic while removing a lot of abuses of it.

Tom Gore.4035:

Those who say permastealthing thieves are not OP because they’re not doing anything have apparently never chased two of them around your keep/castle for a couple of hours.

You decide to chase two thieves around for a couple of hours and that’s overpowered….

I have a feeling that every class you cannot defeat is OP in your mind….

Invoker.5462:

2. Being able to disengage opens up a MASSIVE amount of opportunities for you.

A. Enemy just used a buff you can’t fight against? Wait it out
B. Odds somehow turned against you based on position or outnumbered? Wait it out

These mechanics became well known to me as i became the top Arena player in Archeage playing a class called “Shadowblade” which used stealth and disables. I always fought on my terms and that allowed me to potentially beat any class- even those which countered mine specifically.

In conclusion.

Stealth is = but less offensively viable than complete invulnerability, allows you to fight on you’re terms, has no immediate counter skill (no ability to keep someone from stealthing or to reveal stealth players) thus making it one of those abilities thats always safe to use. And as an added bonus- gives you time to think about you’re next move (clockless chess). This is why stealth/invisibility as a mechanic will always be overpowered.

Don’t compare GuildWars2 to ArcheAge stealth mechanics – this two are hell a diffrent ones. Stealth in GW2 (and mostly in general) isn’t something “overpowered”. It is trick and to execute it require using atleast one skill. You can’t vanish and stay invisible all day all night long without sacrificing alot from Your build. The real “threat” making it overpowered is just inability of people to counter it. Stealth in GW2 very predictable to be honest and easy to overcome.

BTW: In ArcheAge I could beat anyone just by having delphinad bow (upgraded to top tier) just by pressing 2 buttons, 3 if he had better gear than average. So probably ArcheAge is probably worst point to begin discussion in terms of balancing game mechanics.

The only real counter to stealth is “Revealed” which has limited availability to most classes.. and the classes with access to this anti buff (Rangers) has very very limited access.

Solution… damage over times and physical damage should break stealth. Easy fix…

Apparition.1576:

The only real counter to stealth is “Revealed” which has limited availability to most classes.. and the classes with access to this anti buff (Rangers) has very very limited access.

Solution… damage over times and physical damage should break stealth. Easy fix…

I’d agree to this, if the armor, stealth duration, cooldowns, and other facets were balanced to compensate for the added frailty on already-frail classes.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Apparition.1576:

The only real counter to stealth is “Revealed” which has limited availability to most classes.. and the classes with access to this anti buff (Rangers) has very very limited access.

Solution… damage over times and physical damage should break stealth. Easy fix…

I’d agree to this, if the armor, stealth duration, cooldowns, and other facets were balanced to compensate for the added frailty on already-frail classes.

Draknar.5748:

Tom Gore.4035:

Those who say permastealthing thieves are not OP because they’re not doing anything have apparently never chased two of them around your keep/castle for a couple of hours.

You decide to chase two thieves around for a couple of hours and that’s overpowered….

I have a feeling that every class you cannot defeat is OP in your mind….

Also this. Thieves that have dedicated their trait lines to stealthing aren’t going to do anything to your lords in an reasonable amount of time.

They aren’t mesmers. They can’t port in friends.

Thieves are pretty predictable with stealth.

Stealth usually last around 4-6 seconds so count a few seconds and then block/evade/etc. Thieves usually try to attack before their stealth runs out.

The only problem to me is SR. When you see SR you should start nuking the area but with 12 secs+ of stealth it’s harder to predict whether the thief will attack or run away.

That’s about it for thieves’ stealth, from my perspective.

Windsagio.1340:

Let’s look at it this way:

Where is Stealth?

Game Modes (Sorted on my understanding of how commonly played they are):

PVE: Stealth is only useful for running (just about) You want a thief in your party for blinds, not for stealth.
WvW (Zerg or Blob): Laughably meaningless
SPvP (Conquest): Shadow Refuge has some uses; You can’t cap with stealth but you can disengage. Honestly not great, but useful in 1 on 1’s. PU mesmers, imo, apply and use invis better than thieves use stealth.
SPvP (Courtyard): Almost never 1-1 and lots of random ae. Stealth or no, thieves aren’t great in this.
WvW (Roamer): Strong, if the opponent is alone you can get a really good spike (but not better than a surprise RapidFire from a RTW ranger), and you can always get away.
WvW (GvG): I honestly don’t know this one

I’m happy to be corrected on any of these usages of course.

~~~ so, stealth is ‘eh’ or worthless in most of the commonly played modes of the game but is really strong in open-world 1v1’s (that rarely have an impact outside of winning and losing the particular fight?)

The questions then are:

1) Do we need to rebalance stealth in a relatively lightly played, unsupported playstyle at the risk of making it worse in modes where its already weak?
2) Where it is particularly strong (roaming) does the fact that very few roaming battles effect map goals matter to the discussion?

I beg to differ on them being laughably meaningless. Ya they don’t sit in the middle of the blob but if you have a few thieves flanking taking out the eles and other support that’s going to make a major difference.

JaeleCt.3967:

the fact is stealth and theives in general are OP verse specific classes, and garbage vs others. this is a game of RPS, nothing beats everything, everything has a weakness. until a class absolutely kitten’s on every class imaginable (like very early game D/D theives) its not OP

Early game d/d thieves spamming 4 all day and downing the entirety of a team was totally balanced.

horse flogging mode

Anyone here complaining not talking about WvW?