Guild Wars 2

Considering that it takes 30-40 seconds to kill the ogre after FE, the “we have other stuff to do” reason doesn’t make sense. I fully understand your reasons and I think you’re in the right, but if the price to pay for not being raged at is 30 seconds then you might want to consider it.

Let’s add a little bit of perspective here:

-The ogre champ isn’t anything special. The average financial gain of completing the event is pretty low… a few silver isn’t anything to get upset about if you miss it.

-The Steam Ogre event and rewards are merely a bonus. The reason why you guys waypoint there is for the FE and the reasonable rewards you earn there. It’s not like you lose out on silver for waypointing there to discover the champ has already been killed. If the FE didn’t spawn there, I doubt people would WP to Thaumanova just to kill the Steam Ogre for a Champ Bag.

-Nobody is more (or less) entitled to a particular boss or enemy than another person. If you miss out on it, too bad… wait another 20 minutes and if a champ bag drop is really worth it for you, wait or waypoint back and complete it. (But perhaps it doesn’t fit in with your schedule? Well that’s the reason why the OP and his guild complete it early too :P)

-As far as I see it, the Steam Ogre event is working as intended. If A-net wanted a lot of people to benefit from its rewards, it would be a far more difficult encounter and it would scale up. Currently, it’s an easy kill with even a handful of people.

-Completing this event isn’t blocking progress for anybody. The only thing you might lose out on is upgrading your Chaos Orb for the Mawdrey Backpiece/Item. However, if you find out that there is a chance of Steam Ogre being killed before FE and you’re specifically trying to work towards Mawdrey, just get there a little earlier than usual just to be safe.

It’s not about the 1 single Champ Bag that we’re missing. It’s the fact that a group of people are purposely ruining the train. And no, this isn’t the same was the Frost Gorge train. Champ bosses respawn every few minutes while you’re on the same map. Bosses spawn every 2 – 3 hours, on different maps. If my zerg is at FE, and we can’t do the Steam Ogre, we move to the next boss. By going back when the Steam Ogre timer is up, that ruins the Boss train. OP seems to understand this, and doesn’t care. Ergo intentional griefing.

Again, players are Entitled to play how they want, but they’re not Entitled to ruining the game for others.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s not about the 1 single Champ Bag that we’re missing. It’s the fact that a group of people are purposely ruining the train. And no, this isn’t the same was the Frost Gorge train. Champ bosses respawn every few minutes while you’re on the same map. Bosses spawn every 2 – 3 hours, on different maps. If my zerg is at FE, and we can’t do the Steam Ogre, we move to the next boss. By going back when the Steam Ogre timer is up, that ruins the Boss train. OP seems to understand this, and doesn’t care. Ergo intentional griefing.

Again, players are Entitled to play how they want, but they’re not Entitled to ruining the game for others.

So, you’re saying that your train is more important than somene else’s train.
I’m glad that’s finally out in the open.

If you get riled up about this on principle, you must be a very angry person. The point here is, this is a game. That people play on their time to relax. If adhering to someone else’s schedule isn’t relaxing for them or cuts into the time they have to play this game, then they don’t have to do it.
You keep saying that inconvenience=griefing, which simply isn’t the case. You can still do the event. Just later. No-one is stopping you. If it’s all abolut your timing and your rotation above anything else, then you are griefing anyone who wants/needs to time their bosses/events differently, too.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s not about the 1 single Champ Bag that we’re missing. It’s the fact that a group of people are purposely ruining the train. And no, this isn’t the same was the Frost Gorge train. Champ bosses respawn every few minutes while you’re on the same map. Bosses spawn every 2 – 3 hours, on different maps. If my zerg is at FE, and we can’t do the Steam Ogre, we move to the next boss. By going back when the Steam Ogre timer is up, that ruins the Boss train. OP seems to understand this, and doesn’t care. Ergo intentional griefing.

Again, players are Entitled to play how they want, but they’re not Entitled to ruining the game for others.

So the train is entitled to ruin the game for others by setting a specific timetable for boss runs and grief anybody that plays otherwise? Stellar logic.

Wahaha.7938:

Considering that it takes 30-40 seconds to kill the ogre after FE, the “we have other stuff to do” reason doesn’t make sense. I fully understand your reasons and I think you’re in the right, but if the price to pay for not being raged at is 30 seconds then you might want to consider it.

You’d be surprised how much difference 30 seconds can make in my guild’s nightly WBT. There are times when we barely get everyone in on some events, even when we try our best to time things properly. You’re welcome to come along and see what we do, if you like, then perhaps you’ll understand how busy we can be.

@ Azure Fang, Crimson, and everyone else with a clear head on their shoulders: Thank you. Because of you guys/girls — I will continue to warn in map chat so that everyone available can join in if they choose to, regardless of the toxic backlash I may receive for doing so. Happy looting.

Azrael.4960:

What they’re doing is hardly griefing. They’re playing the game as it was intended. Hell, OP would be well within their rights to just open it for the guild, do the event and move on. They’re not beholden to the unwashed masses that abuse them for doing the event. When I’m doing exploration and come across champs, I announce to the map that any lowbie interested in getting the help of a lvl 80 char in taking down a champ should come to my tag. I considerately tag up and wait 5min.

I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think they are “playing the game as intended.” The key is meant to be found during pre-events, charged up and then add the final charge by killing FE to gain access to the steam ogre. Logically, I believe anet intended for players to do things in that order. Of course, they didn’t lock it so that it can’t be done “out of order”, but it wouldn’t be the first time a game programmer overlooked players doing something out of turn. Would also explain why all other keys in players inventories are deleted upon entering the steam ogre area.

As far as the OP’s actions: He doesn’t deserve verbal abuse for something as stupid as a video game, but he knows what he is doing and knows it bothers other players because for the lifespan of the game (2.5+ years) it has always been done one way. No person with any shred of common sense should be surprised that he is getting angry messages when doing something you know is going to get said response.

On a side note, because it relates here. Most of the problems that people argue about in all facets of society would be solved if people would simply do whats best for the group rather than what’s best for themselves. It’s our biggest societal problem that apparently doesn’t change when people go to the make believe worlds of video games.

Thing is that Steam ogre was never meant to be treated as a secondary loot pinata. It was meant to be part of the leveling experience in Metrica and as a challenge for newer characters in that zone. Anet may as well remove it now given how it’s treated and the toxicity raising. Queensdale 1.1 anyone?

And so with the kind words of a a couple of people who also don’t care what the map of players think, the OP will continue to grief the FE event. At least this confirms that this was a troll thread to get people upset.

Maybe a small group of us should time a Steam Ogre kill first, then OP can see how we feel about not adhering to their tight schedule.

@Smooth Penguin…

You keep using the phrase “Ruining the game for others”. I think this phrase is a touch over-dramatic for losing out on one champ/champ-bag.

To me it just seems you’re jealous/upset/bitter that other people get a small reward whilst you do not.

Edit: Just to add, I’ve been at FE plenty of times whilst the matrix-key thing is on cool-down. Do I get bothered by it? Not really. I run to the centre, see if the wall is opened. If it isn’t, I move on to the next world boss.

Penguin, one thing: I am part of the map. Just because not doing the event doesn’t bother me doesn’t mean I’m not part of the players who get “cheated” out of loot. Plenty of times no-one even has the key. Do I rage about this? Nope. I take a peek, see if someone opens the field, and if not, I port away. You can be upset about “losing” loot, but that doesn’t mean everyone is. Those who shriek and howl are usually part of a very vocal minority.

Also, you purposely killing the ogre to spite the OP? Yeah, that is griefing.

Red Queen.7915:

Also, you purposely killing the ogre to spite the OP? Yeah, that is griefing.

Actually, according to the others, this isn’t considered griefing. I’m within my rights to play the game how I want, on my own schedule. Sounds fair to me.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

And so with the kind words of a a couple of people who also don’t care what the map of players think, the OP will continue to grief the FE event. At least this confirms that this was a troll thread to get people upset.

Maybe a small group of us should time a Steam Ogre kill first, then OP can see how we feel about not adhering to their tight schedule.

Enjoy your “schedule”. I’m going to enjoy Guild Wars 2.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s not about the 1 single Champ Bag that we’re missing. It’s the fact that a group of people are purposely ruining the train. And no, this isn’t the same was the Frost Gorge train. Champ bosses respawn every few minutes while you’re on the same map. Bosses spawn every 2 – 3 hours, on different maps. If my zerg is at FE, and we can’t do the Steam Ogre, we move to the next boss. By going back when the Steam Ogre timer is up, that ruins the Boss train. OP seems to understand this, and doesn’t care. Ergo intentional griefing.

Again, players are Entitled to play how they want, but they’re not Entitled to ruining the game for others.

I’m afraid your judgment has become clouded on this issue and you’re unwilling or unable to see it for what it is. * shrugs * You repeatedly use the word “ruin”…. do you know what that means? Its not fitting in this case. Not by a longshot. Steam Ogre is not a World Boss, its just an extra champion (chump change). Getting it or not has no large effect on anyone’s overall WBT.

Goodness, if and when I miss World Bosses I don’t feel my train has been ruined. Believe it or not I do miss many of those bosses every night. Why? Because I’m a scout for my guild and I enjoy finding the other T2 bosses and Temples — so that my guild can run smoothly from one event to another. It makes me happy to do that and I don’t care if I miss a good third, or more, of the bosses in order to do that for them. Does that mean you should be happy with much lower levels of loot than your peers? No. Everybody is different. But perhaps you should relax a little and not let one missing champ bag bring you down… or “ruin” your train.

Also it is entirely possible for you to return for SO later if you so wished, in between the other bosses on ArenaNet’s world boss timer. Yes, it really is. My guild fits in Lyssa, Dwayna, Eye, Balthazar, Melandru, Arah, Grenth, Dredge Commisar, Foulbear, Fire Shaman, and Rhend in between all the scheduled bosses. We get it done.

TIL missing one champ bag ruins the game. oh no. what will I do without that 1.5 silver and a green.

The guy goes out of his way to announce he’s doing the ogre early, even though he knows he’ll be flamed for it. It give you something to do rather then just afk for ages waiting for the boss spawn. He’s making a forum post so now hopefully more people will be aware of whats going on even though once again he’ll be yelled at for it.

Unclench your bum-holes and work with the guy, jfc.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

And so with the kind words of a a couple of people who also don’t care what the map of players think, the OP will continue to grief the FE event. At least this confirms that this was a troll thread to get people upset.

Maybe a small group of us should time a Steam Ogre kill first, then OP can see how we feel about not adhering to their tight schedule.

Unlike the ragers, the OP and their guild probably wouldn’t care. They’d just move on to the next stage in their rotation and come back later.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Red Queen.7915:

Also, you purposely killing the ogre to spite the OP? Yeah, that is griefing.

Actually, according to the others, this isn’t considered griefing. I’m within my rights to play the game how I want, on my own schedule. Sounds fair to me.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s not about the 1 single Champ Bag that we’re missing. It’s the fact that a group of people are purposely ruining the train. And no, this isn’t the same was the Frost Gorge train. Champ bosses respawn every few minutes while you’re on the same map. Bosses spawn every 2 – 3 hours, on different maps. If my zerg is at FE, and we can’t do the Steam Ogre, we move to the next boss. By going back when the Steam Ogre timer is up, that ruins the Boss train. OP seems to understand this, and doesn’t care. Ergo intentional griefing.

Your definition of griefing; it’s apparently all about intent. And logic. Just saying.

That one missing Champ Bag could be the difference between getting an Exotic to MF for a Precursor, or having to spend 2 Gold on another Exotic. Tis a big deal to ruin the Boss train runs.

And if OP wouldn’t care about missing the Steam Ogre, then he shouldn’t care to wait another few minutes to do the event with the rest of the players on the map. /Logic

Dear god, I just noticed your signature.
In this context – priceless

And I still find it funny that you expect everyone to understand that your way of playing the game is the most important and adapting their playstyle to fit yours while you rage at anyone else mildly “upsetting” your schedule.
I don’t think any amount of meditating and/or mind-bending will help me understand this way of thinking.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

That one missing Champ Bag could be the difference between getting an Exotic to MF for a Precursor, or having to spend 2 Gold on another Exotic. Tis a big deal to ruin the Boss train runs.

And if OP wouldn’t care about missing the Steam Ogre, then he shouldn’t care to wait another few minutes to do the event with the rest of the players on the map. /Logic

That’s about as thin of an argument as players saying “I don’t want to WP when dead at Tequatl because I need that 2s for my legendary.”

If the champ bag is that important, jump in to a 50% SW and get ~30 champ bags in ~15 minutes.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

That one missing Champ Bag could be the difference between getting an Exotic to MF for a Precursor, or having to spend 2 Gold on another Exotic. Tis a big deal to ruin the Boss train runs.

And if OP wouldn’t care about missing the Steam Ogre, then he shouldn’t care to wait another few minutes to do the event with the rest of the players on the map. /Logic

How is OP (and their guild) beholden to the rest of the map?

Azure Fang.8605:

• No intent to grief
• Being considerate and announcing prior
• Picking a time before pre start so everybody available can join

It is hardly considerate to announce it while the last pre-event is running while everyone is sequestered in the adjacent room fighting inquest. You know I’ve never been to an FE when the C.L.E.A.N. 5000 gets defeated in the last room because nobody is protecting him.

It may not be his intention to grief and he may think he’s in the clear by announcing it but the time he choose to do so isn’t convenient to anyone but him and his guild.

Using justification that everyone is just standing around doing nothing is false if he bothered to see what goes on during those last 5 minutes because while there are a fraction that stand like statues, there are an equal amount engaged in that final pre battle.

And yes, it’s simply one champ bag. But if it’s so worthless than why does the OP choose to do it at all? You can’t say it’s worthless to those who get locked out while also saying it’s worth doing for you ONLY if you do it in the moments just before FE appears because you don’t have the time to do it after. So if it’s worth doing for yourself it’s worth doing for everyone. You can’t use that as an excuse.

Azure Fang.8605:

That’s about as thin of an argument as players saying “I don’t want to WP when dead at Tequatl because I need that 2s for my legendary.”

That doesn’t apply here. Dead players who don’t WP are just trolls. If they WP or not, they still get the loot at the Teq kill.

Azrael.4960:

How is OP (and their guild) beholden to the rest of the map?

Because it’s an unwritten rule that all players know about and have the honor to abide by. Steam Ogre comes after the FE kill. It’s been that way since we first discovered the Steam Ogre. To alter that is akin to moving Christmas to January.

@Behellagh
Why do it at all? Let’s see:

• Achievement
• Chaos orb charge
• Daily treasure chest
• Something to do as a guild
• All stay in for countdown to create a deathpile outside the reactor <-Personal favorite, and great way to work up revival achievement
• Metrica Province Daily Events achievement using a controllable event
• “World’s About To End -No Ogres Invited” dance party <-Permanently cancelled as the world did not end 12/21/14.
• Just really hates Steam Ogres

Need I continue?

As to the timing, did you actually READ the OP, I took it as 3 minures PRE, as in 3 minutes before the pre chain starts, when NOTHING is happening and half of the megaserver is portalling on to the top FE platform to kitten and tweet “im abot to kill FE 4 279th time #yoloswag420”, not during the pre. And even if, the pre escort is EASY. I’ve solo’d it on a really lazy megaserver, including the champ that can scale at the bridge which has about as much HP as a common firefly.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Azure Fang.8605:

That’s about as thin of an argument as players saying “I don’t want to WP when dead at Tequatl because I need that 2s for my legendary.”

That doesn’t apply here. Dead players who don’t WP are just trolls. If they WP or not, they still get the loot at the Teq kill.

Azrael.4960:

How is OP (and their guild) beholden to the rest of the map?

Because it’s an unwritten rule that all players know about and have the honor to abide by. Steam Ogre comes after the FE kill. It’s been that way since we first discovered the Steam Ogre. To alter that is akin to moving Christmas to January.

@Teq rez
How is someone that wants a rez trolling? You will literally turn everything in to a personal attack, won’t you?

@Unwritten rule
In other words, as with all “unwritten rules”, absolutely nobody is beholden to abide, as there is no force to bind them and they are in the right no matter what.

EDIT: Also, didn’t you imply you were done with this thread? Aren’t you on a schedule to stand on the FE room platform in 4 minutes 30 seconds from this post?

Azure Fang.8605:

@Behellagh
Why do it at all? Let’s see:

• Achievement
• Chaos orb charge
• Daily treasure chest
• Something to do as a guild
• All stay in for countdown to create a deathpile outside the reactor <-Personal favorite, and great way to work up revival achievement
• Metrica Province Daily Events achievement using a controllable event
• “World’s About To End -No Ogres Invited” dance party <-Permanently cancelled as the world did not end 12/24/14.
• Just really hates Steam Ogres

Need I continue?

As to the timing, did you actually READ the OP, I took it as 3 minures PRE, as in 3 minutes before the pre chain starts, when NOTHING is happening and half of the megaserver is portalling on to the top FE platform to kitten and tweet “im abot to kill FE 4 279th time #yoloswag420”, not during the pre. And even if, the pre escort is EASY. I’ve solo’d it on a really lazy megaserver, including the champ that can scale at the bridge which has about as much HP as a common firefly.

No, he states that he starts it with 3 minutes left until FE actually spawns and he announces when the 5 minute timer starts. I wouldn’t have a problem if he started it at 18 before the hour but he isn’t. He’s starting it as the C.L.E.A.N. 5000 is cleaning that last room for 5 minutes as inquest is popping up continuously to attack it. He’s doing it while everyone else is distracted.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Azrael.4960:

How is OP (and their guild) beholden to the rest of the map?

Because it’s an unwritten rule that all players know about and have the honor to abide by. Steam Ogre comes after the FE kill. It’s been that way since we first discovered the Steam Ogre. To alter that is akin to moving Christmas to January.

The same justification was used in the Queensdale train when people killed one of the champs out of sequence. People felt upset because they believed they were entitled to that boss if they belonged in a train that was made to kill it (along with other champs).

It’s pretty obvious that Arena-net dislike enemy/loot/event entitlement because of the nerfs to Queensdale and some of the other champ farms. Events are designed to be completed, but arguments arise when people feel that they (as some form of train) are more entitled to something compared to another player or two running around. These “unwritten rules” are not justified and are certainly not supported by A-net.

Sure, it’s nice if a lot of people can join in so they can receive the loot as it means more people can enjoy the rewards.

But on the same token, it’s not a tragedy or “ruining the game” if you miss out on it. The reason why the OP runs the Ogre with his guild is so that his guild (and other people in the map at the time) can receive the rewards. His guild wouldn’t be able to get the rewards otherwise due to his tight schedule.

At least he’s kind enough to announce it. This means that other people in the map still get to benefit from the event (who might have not gone to the Ogre otherwise). It also means that people will be less likely to waste their time trying to use their matrix key (and possibly miss the next boss/event) because it has been communicated (recently) that it will be on cool-down.

Azure Fang.8605:

As to the timing, did you actually READ the OP, I took it as 3 minures PRE, as in 3 minutes before the pre chain starts, when NOTHING is happening and half of the megaserver is portalling on to the top FE platform to kitten and tweet “im abot to kill FE 4 279th time #yoloswag420”, not during the pre. And even if, the pre escort is EASY. I’ve solo’d it on a really lazy megaserver, including the champ that can scale at the bridge which has about as much HP as a common firefly.

Ah. I should clarify further. Its not that early. The 3 minute mark is during the final pre event inside the main chamber. The only people that get on the map that early are one of our scouts, so we can anchor a map that has an Ogre not on cooldown (if possible).

Should also be noted again that if there isn’t enough time between when we get the whole guild on that map shard and the normal time we call out a warning – then we don’t do Ogre beforehand. If there isn’t anything rushing us away ASAP after FE then we’ll do Ogre afterwards — often times we just leave it undone and move on to more important things.

Azhure.1857:

Azure Fang.8605:

As to the timing, did you actually READ the OP, I took it as 3 minures PRE, as in 3 minutes before the pre chain starts, when NOTHING is happening and half of the megaserver is portalling on to the top FE platform to kitten and tweet “im abot to kill FE 4 279th time #yoloswag420”, not during the pre. And even if, the pre escort is EASY. I’ve solo’d it on a really lazy megaserver, including the champ that can scale at the bridge which has about as much HP as a common firefly.

Ah. I should clarify further. Its not that early. The 3 minute mark is during the final pre event inside the main chamber. The only people that get on the map that early are one of our scouts, so we can anchor a map that has an Ogre not on cooldown (if possible).

Fair enough. So, during the final pre when about 50 people are standing doing nothing and maybe 10-15 are killing things, and at a point when anybody could tag a mob, run for ogre, melt it, and run back with still enough time to grab a bag of chips and STILL have 1 minute before FE actually shows (personally done, seems I’ve been in one of your goes in the past).

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Azure Fang.8605:

That’s about as thin of an argument as players saying “I don’t want to WP when dead at Tequatl because I need that 2s for my legendary.”

That doesn’t apply here. Dead players who don’t WP are just trolls. If they WP or not, they still get the loot at the Teq kill.

Azrael.4960:

How is OP (and their guild) beholden to the rest of the map?

Because it’s an unwritten rule that all players know about and have the honor to abide by. Steam Ogre comes after the FE kill. It’s been that way since we first discovered the Steam Ogre. To alter that is akin to moving Christmas to January.

That doesn’t change the question. They’re not beholden to the map any more than I am. Others may be sheep and follow along the “unwritten rule” but there has never been and should never be some arbitrary unenforceable rule that prevents players from playing how they want.

“You’re honour bound to do XYZ” No I am not and no they are not.

Azure Fang.8605:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Azure Fang.8605:

That’s about as thin of an argument as players saying “I don’t want to WP when dead at Tequatl because I need that 2s for my legendary.”

That doesn’t apply here. Dead players who don’t WP are just trolls. If they WP or not, they still get the loot at the Teq kill.

Azrael.4960:

How is OP (and their guild) beholden to the rest of the map?

Because it’s an unwritten rule that all players know about and have the honor to abide by. Steam Ogre comes after the FE kill. It’s been that way since we first discovered the Steam Ogre. To alter that is akin to moving Christmas to January.

@Teq rez
How is someone that wants a rez trolling? You will literally turn everything in to a personal attack, won’t you?

@Unwritten rule
In other words, as with all “unwritten rules”, absolutely nobody is beholden to abide, as there is no force to bind them and they are in the right no matter what.

EDIT: Also, didn’t you imply you were done with this thread? Aren’t you on a schedule to stand on the FE room platform in 4 minutes 30 seconds from this post?

Points:

1) I rez the downed, not the defeated. The double downed people need to WP. It’s that way on all maps, esp. TTS ones.

2) Is there no honor left in video games? All players abide by the unwritten rule.

3) When did I say I was done? I just made a note to go out and kill the Steam Ogre earlier, so that by the time cooldown ends, our friends won’t miss out due to trolls.

Azure Fang.8605:

@Unwritten rule
In other words, as with all “unwritten rules”, absolutely nobody is beholden to abide, as there is no force to bind them and they are in the right no matter what.

I don’t think you get what unwritten rule really means. I know you understand, but you don’t “get it”.

Stating the obvious fact that it’s not a real enforceable rule by some law creating and maintaining entity means nothing. Unwritten rules are rules created by the majority to benefit the majority and to make it so everyone knows what’s going on. It’s a societal agreement that maintains order when there is no governing body.

@everyone else about the stupid QD champ train: There is a huge difference between someone killing a champ out of order on a map where the same champs spawn 5 minutes later and will be killed 100’s of times than there is when killing a champ that is basically part of the FE process and has been since the dawn of the game and won’t respawn until long after everyone is gone from the map. Stop making that silly comparison.

But it’s not really a part of FE, just something on the way out that one can do if someone has a key, and it’s not on cooldown.

Behellagh.1468:

But it’s not really a part of FE, just something on the way out that one can do if someone has a key, and it’s not on cooldown.

Technically it’s not, but finding the key and only being able to charge it by killing FE kind of makes it part of FE, hence the unwritten rule being created, more than likely, long before any of these guys started playing the game.

So, add fighting steam golem before FE to the list of things that shouldn’t be done in addition to completing temple defense events, and fighting champs in FGS outside the train. Anet sees these conversations and chooses to make a move depending on how bitter the conversation gets. The underlying theme here is clear. The community has many different play styles and “schedules” and some play styles don’t agree with each other, i.e. this current subject and the aforementioned. It’s up to Anet to intervene in arguments like this because the game allows for conflict of this nature. Although, it has to reach a tipping point and I don’t think we’ve seen that yet. I should also add that Anet hasn’t necessarily sided with the “champ train” crowd in the past. They know they will just move on to the next farm anyway. It’s just how it goes. Anet has basically said they will let people farm whatever so long as it doesn’t adversely affect the economy or in some cases cause/take part in conflict.

cranked.3812:

snip

@everyone else about the stupid QD champ train: There is a huge difference between someone killing a champ out of order on a map where the same champs spawn 5 minutes later and will be killed 100’s of times than there is when killing a champ that is basically part of the FE process and has been since the dawn of the game and won’t respawn until long after everyone is gone from the map. Stop making that silly comparison.

The comparison was made about the entitlement, not the kinds of champs or respawn rates. Besides, I’d actually argue that if a champ was killed in the QD train, it was more annoying because it would often upset the whole train. People ended up splitting up and the train would fall apart.

But either way, people are totally allowed to kill whatever creature they want to, with or without a zerg behind them. It all goes pretty well until bickering arises and A-net has to nerf things to improve the sense of community and the contents of map chat…

cranked.3812:

Behellagh.1468:

But it’s not really a part of FE, just something on the way out that one can do if someone has a key, and it’s not on cooldown.

Technically it’s not, but finding the key and only being able to charge it by killing FE kind of makes it part of FE, hence the unwritten rule being created, more than likely, long before any of these guys started playing the game.

Granted, forgot about the key charge.

Crimson Clouds.4853:

cranked.3812:

snip

@everyone else about the stupid QD champ train: There is a huge difference between someone killing a champ out of order on a map where the same champs spawn 5 minutes later and will be killed 100’s of times than there is when killing a champ that is basically part of the FE process and has been since the dawn of the game and won’t respawn until long after everyone is gone from the map. Stop making that silly comparison.

The comparison was made about the entitlement, not the kinds of champs or respawn rates. Besides, I’d actually argue that if a champ was killed in the QD train, it was more annoying because it would often upset the whole train. People ended up splitting up and the train would fall apart.

But either way, people are totally allowed to kill whatever creature they want to, with or without a zerg behind them. It all goes pretty well until bickering arises and A-net has to nerf things to improve the sense of community and the contents of map chat…

OK i see what you are saying about the entitled aspect of it. But, this is exactly why unwritten rules are created in society. Everyone knows it, everyone follows it and everyone is happy.

@Smooth Penguin
You speak of honor, yet you force people to play as they may not like, threaten to troll a boss to counter others play, and turn everything in to a personal attack. Trolling and griefing are such by INTENT. A player killing a champ out of train is not griefing; a player killing a champ out of train to derail the train is. A player staying dead hoping for a rez is not trolling; a player staying dead to upscale an event MAY be, depending on the intended outcome.

By your logic, if you walk through an event you are instantly griefing every participating player by upscaling the event, which was not a desired outcome by the participating players.

I’m having a hard time placing which logical fallacy you’re hitting with your arguments. Unwarranted Assumption? Affirming the Consequent? Existential? Argument to Moderation? Confirmation Bias? Circular Reasoning? Ecological (seems most likely)? Etymological? Composition? Division? False dilemma (also likely)? Furtive? Hedging? Incomplete Comparison? Intentional? Moral High Ground?

No, it’s definitely a Mind Projection fallacy.

To recap, the reason people were mad isn’t because they missed out on a minor Champ Bag. The main problem here is that trolls ruined the pattern of the run. Because of this, I haven’t touched the Steam Ogre in a while. I heard it was bugged, so I stopped going to FE. But now that I know why it was “bugged”, I’m upset, purely in principle.

But trolls are everywhere. In WvW claiming Keeps with 0 buffs in a small guild. Undercutting my prices on the TP. And purposely ruining PvE trains. I’ve learned to live with it, but that doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to be upset at some people don’t understand the logic of how a train operates.

There’s a difference in accidentally killing a champ, in a starter zone, that may disrupt the champ train, and intentionally doing it.

When I got to the champ before the train, I simply waited on the train because I didn’t have the right to spoil everyone else’s drop by doing it without them. I thought of the group before myself. It’s a bit of an Eastern philosophy that the group comes first and self comes last but that seems to make sense for a game that is mostly coded in PvE to prevent your selfish behavior from affecting another player.

You may not subscribe to this philosophy and that’s a shame because I think everything goes smoother if you think of the other first and self last.

cranked.3812:

Crimson Clouds.4853:

cranked.3812:

snip

@everyone else about the stupid QD champ train: There is a huge difference between someone killing a champ out of order on a map where the same champs spawn 5 minutes later and will be killed 100’s of times than there is when killing a champ that is basically part of the FE process and has been since the dawn of the game and won’t respawn until long after everyone is gone from the map. Stop making that silly comparison.

The comparison was made about the entitlement, not the kinds of champs or respawn rates. Besides, I’d actually argue that if a champ was killed in the QD train, it was more annoying because it would often upset the whole train. People ended up splitting up and the train would fall apart.

But either way, people are totally allowed to kill whatever creature they want to, with or without a zerg behind them. It all goes pretty well until bickering arises and A-net has to nerf things to improve the sense of community and the contents of map chat…

OK i see what you are saying about the entitled aspect of it. But, this is exactly why unwritten rules are created in society. Everyone knows it, everyone follows it and everyone is happy.

Utopian fallacy. So the homosexual populous is happy about unwritten rules banning marriage in many countries and causing a legal quagmire? Yes, I went there, I’m sorry, but it’s a perfect example.

Unwritten rules are just that, unwritten and only enforceable to those that will be forced or by a majority forcing opinion on others. In game terms, there is literally no reason such rules should be followed, and many reasons why they do not matter (the time spent on that one champ may be spent on countless other, more rewarding champs, for example). This is literally a placement of false dilemma and moral high ground on a group following the WRITTEN rules of the game, by a group that feels entitled to play as they wish over all others, with no consideration to the fact that they do not own the world and do not write its rules.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To recap, the reason people were mad isn’t because they missed out on a minor Champ Bag. The main problem here is that trolls ruined the pattern of the run. Because of this, I haven’t touched the Steam Ogre in a while. I heard it was bugged, so I stopped going to FE. But now that I know why it was “bugged”, I’m upset, purely in principle.

But trolls are everywhere. In WvW claiming Keeps with 0 buffs in a small guild. Undercutting my prices on the TP. And purposely ruining PvE trains. I’ve learned to live with it, but that doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to be upset at some people don’t understand the logic of how a train operates.

Constantly referring to Azhure as a troll, you apportion malice to their purpose of doing Ogre. By their very opening post, they have said they announce their intent in map to do the event. They’ve gone to the trouble of preparing a key and announcing it. How can any malice be attributed to them and their guild?

What you seem to miss is that the train is not convenient for all players. Azhure and their guild have their own “train”. Should an entire guild be inconvenienced simply because their train schedule is different? Is their train any less logical?

Azure Fang.8605:

@Smooth Penguin
You speak of honor, yet you force people to play as they may not like, threaten to troll a boss to counter others play, and turn everything in to a personal attack. Trolling and griefing are such by INTENT. A player killing a champ out of train is not griefing; a player killing a champ out of train to derail the train is. A player staying dead hoping for a rez is not trolling; a player staying dead to upscale an event MAY be, depending on the intended outcome.

By your logic, if you walk through an event you are instantly griefing every participating player by upscaling the event, which was not a desired outcome by the participating players.

I’m having a hard time placing which logical fallacy you’re hitting with your arguments. Unwarranted Assumption? Affirming the Consequent? Existential? Argument to Moderation? Confirmation Bias? Circular Reasoning? Ecological (seems most likely)? Etymological? Composition? Division? False dilemma (also likely)? Furtive? Hedging? Incomplete Comparison? Intentional? Moral High Ground?

No, it’s definitely a Mind Projection fallacy.

Whoa ho ho ho! You want to discuss fallacies now? I’m King of the Strawmen. But I digress.

1) There are no personal attacks here. People say that it’s not considered trolling to ruin an event for others, right? So if I did that, no one can complain about me. If you did, then I’d call out the double standards. What other definition is there when 5 people purposely ruin an event for the other 95 people on the map?

2) Walking into an area doesn’t upscale it. Participating does. So if I’m at Teq, and I don’t know how to dodge the waves or big red circles, I get downed. If I’m not rezzed in time, I’m defeated, and just lay there. Dead weight doesn’t = DPS needed to kill Teq faster.

Azrael.4960:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To recap, the reason people were mad isn’t because they missed out on a minor Champ Bag. The main problem here is that trolls ruined the pattern of the run. Because of this, I haven’t touched the Steam Ogre in a while. I heard it was bugged, so I stopped going to FE. But now that I know why it was “bugged”, I’m upset, purely in principle.

But trolls are everywhere. In WvW claiming Keeps with 0 buffs in a small guild. Undercutting my prices on the TP. And purposely ruining PvE trains. I’ve learned to live with it, but that doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to be upset at some people don’t understand the logic of how a train operates.

Constantly referring to Azhure as a troll, you apportion malice to their purpose of doing Ogre. By their very opening post, they have said they announce their intent in map to do the event. They’ve gone to the trouble of preparing a key and announcing it. How can any malice be attributed to them and their guild?

What you seem to miss is that the train is not convenient for all players. Azhure and their guild have their own “train”. Should an entire guild be inconvenienced simply because their train schedule is different? Is their train any less logical?

The malice is from the fact that he says he doesn’t care that everyone else wants to do the Steam Ogre after the FE. Purposely doing it to make others mad is bad form. If he did it, apologized to everyone, and promised not to ruin the train again, then I would be more forgiving.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To recap, the reason people were mad isn’t because they missed out on a minor Champ Bag. The main problem here is that trolls ruined the pattern of the run. Because of this, I haven’t touched the Steam Ogre in a while. I heard it was bugged, so I stopped going to FE. But now that I know why it was “bugged”, I’m upset, purely in principle.

But trolls are everywhere. In WvW claiming Keeps with 0 buffs in a small guild. Undercutting my prices on the TP. And purposely ruining PvE trains. I’ve learned to live with it, but that doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to be upset at some people don’t understand the logic of how a train operates.

To recap. Small guilds are not allowed to claim keeps, players are not allowed to compete on the AH, players are not allowed to run champs unless they are in a train.

Yes, you are allowed to be upset. I’m upset when I can’t make it to a SW legendary in time. I’m also upset when a train’s damage output on a champ, like SO, is so high that my attacks do not do enough damage to actually give me loot credit, let alone event and chest credit (Ulgoth war beasts and Wurm avatars are another perfect example of this). But they are not doing this to personally spite anyone. Players don’t know they’re undercutting YOU, and I’ve seen more large guilds non-buff claim than small since the claiming change (majority in keep = instant claim rights, all others have to wait until Indignation wears, or had you not known that?), and champs are meant to be killed, be it by 1 or 100.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Azure Fang.8605:

@Smooth Penguin
You speak of honor, yet you force people to play as they may not like, threaten to troll a boss to counter others play, and turn everything in to a personal attack. Trolling and griefing are such by INTENT. A player killing a champ out of train is not griefing; a player killing a champ out of train to derail the train is. A player staying dead hoping for a rez is not trolling; a player staying dead to upscale an event MAY be, depending on the intended outcome.

By your logic, if you walk through an event you are instantly griefing every participating player by upscaling the event, which was not a desired outcome by the participating players.

I’m having a hard time placing which logical fallacy you’re hitting with your arguments. Unwarranted Assumption? Affirming the Consequent? Existential? Argument to Moderation? Confirmation Bias? Circular Reasoning? Ecological (seems most likely)? Etymological? Composition? Division? False dilemma (also likely)? Furtive? Hedging? Incomplete Comparison? Intentional? Moral High Ground?

No, it’s definitely a Mind Projection fallacy.

Whoa ho ho ho! You want to discuss fallacies now? I’m King of the Strawmen. But I digress.

1) There are no personal attacks here. People say that it’s not considered trolling to ruin an event for others, right? So if I did that, no one can complain about me. If you did, then I’d call out the double standards. What other definition is there when 5 people purposely ruin an event for the other 95 people on the map?

2) Walking into an area doesn’t upscale it. Participating does. So if I’m at Teq, and I don’t know how to dodge the waves or big red circles, I get downed. If I’m not rezzed in time, I’m defeated, and just lay there. Dead weight doesn’t = DPS needed to kill Teq faster.

1) You just pointed out in another post people undercutting you personally on the AH, and you cry troll without intent. Every time you post, you lack intent, using the terms themselves as justification.

2) Yes, it does. This is why AFKs are such a problem. Walking past turrets on the way to Teq has been proven to upscale champs, and having the Maw train run by the Tattered Armor event without even killing a skelk or turning in 1 armor instantly caps out the turn in requirement. Vicinity upscales, not participation.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Azrael.4960:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To recap, the reason people were mad isn’t because they missed out on a minor Champ Bag. The main problem here is that trolls ruined the pattern of the run. Because of this, I haven’t touched the Steam Ogre in a while. I heard it was bugged, so I stopped going to FE. But now that I know why it was “bugged”, I’m upset, purely in principle.

But trolls are everywhere. In WvW claiming Keeps with 0 buffs in a small guild. Undercutting my prices on the TP. And purposely ruining PvE trains. I’ve learned to live with it, but that doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to be upset at some people don’t understand the logic of how a train operates.

Constantly referring to Azhure as a troll, you apportion malice to their purpose of doing Ogre. By their very opening post, they have said they announce their intent in map to do the event. They’ve gone to the trouble of preparing a key and announcing it. How can any malice be attributed to them and their guild?

What you seem to miss is that the train is not convenient for all players. Azhure and their guild have their own “train”. Should an entire guild be inconvenienced simply because their train schedule is different? Is their train any less logical?

The malice is from the fact that he says he doesn’t care that everyone else wants to do the Steam Ogre after the FE. Purposely doing it to make others mad is bad form. If he did it, apologized to everyone, and promised not to ruin the train again, then I would be more forgiving.

Ah of course! Because they don’t conform to “the rules” their malice is obvious. Oh how foolish of me to be arguing from their perspective.
/sarcasm

Conversely, one could argue that everyone else is malicious because they want to do Ogre before FE and that people wanting to do it after is bad form. If other players did that, apologised to the guild and promised not to ruin their train again, the guild could be more forgiving.

(Bear in mind, I’m not arguing to be stubborn. I’m trying to make a point that always looking at it from the “majority” stand point while ignoring the minority is one of the big reasons why there is so much discontent in so many countries in the world. Sunni Muslims in Shia dominated countries, Shia muslims in Sunni dominated countries, Tibetans in China, Aboriginals in Australia, and so on)

After skimming the thread, I’ve come to the conclusion that if I decide to open steam ogre’s room exactly 20-21 minutes before fire elemental, thus depriving azhure’s guild an ogre spawn in favor of generating one in time for the world train to arrive, I’m fully within my rights, I’m not trolling, and azhure can suck it up. Sound about right? Anyone see something wrong with that?

“Bear in mind, I’m not arguing to be stubborn. I’m trying to make a point…”

At this point, I’m not even here for that. I just like to argue and debate