Guild Wars 2

no. the gem store is fine as it is now.

A subscription wouldn’t work in GW2, I don’t mind the gem shop because It’s optional so I can buy as much as I want, or never and it doesn’t really hinder me not to. I get to pick and choose where/when/how/why to spend my money and I like it that way rather than sitting on a subscription that I may or may not get something out of each month that justifies it for me for a long period of time.

Would I enroll in some sort of 5-10 dollar VIP program that grants purely cosmetic perks?? Possibly. But that would probably enrage the gw2 player base at this point if they did that.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Meehael.8240:

~

~

While I agree that in most cases no cash-shop is best (because they tent to turn bad) it’s really the focus on the cash-shop (to generate money) that is the problem.

I went to the WoW shop to have a look.
It has 11 mini’s (what might be to much but the game is also out for 9 years so if they would release one every year you would already be close to those 11)

It has 7 mounts (should really not be any more)

It has 3 helms and 5 payed services: Name changer, full make-over, character transfer and Race Changer, faction change.

Ingame there is in no way a push to buy anything from the cahs-shop. You can collect a few hundred mini’s ingame. And with ingame I don’t mean you need to grind gold to then buy them. Now they are ingame. So when you are done with collecting them all then there are those 11 left in the store (maybe thats then the only push there is?). All in all thats not that big of a problem. However I do think 11 is a little to much still it’s not that much.

Exactly the same is for mounts and helmets.

The services are exactly the kind of things that might be in a cash-shop. It are things that are outside of the game. Changing your name or changing the complete look or changing race and so on is not an element of the game. It’s that sort of services I always point at as an example of the type of items that can indeed be in a cash-shop without effecting the game.

The people behind ESO also stated that they would not have a normal cash-shop but just some things like a name-changer.

So I am sorry but your comparison is very flawed. There are many different types of cash-shops. But the cash-shop always becomes a problem when the company focuses on the cash-shop to generate income. Not saying that there might be P2P games that still had a bad cash-shop and I also agree that the mini’s, mounts and helms should not be in the cash-shop of WoW but overall it’s still very limited.

You act like if every cash-shop is the same. It isn’t. Some people say GW2 cash-shop isn’t one of the worse because it does not have P2W items but thats only true if your main game-play is combat. For other people (that like the more RP elements like collecting mini’s) GW2’s cash-shop and how they influence the game to get you to buy items makes it among the worst cash-shops there are.

The whole game is a gold-grind making the game much less fun but trying to convince you of buying gems to convert to gold.

GW2’s cash shop and the focus on it and how it effect the game is simply not the same as with some of the games you refer to.

Have a thread about exactly this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/page/3#post3593248
It’s the focus on the cash-shop that guarantees to make it a problem.

BTW, this is not to say I want subscriptions. I don’t. I just wanted to point out that what you where saying is not really valid and that cash-shops do effect the game.

I would much rather have them focusing on expansion to generate income. That could potentially solve many problems.. if they then indeed undo all the stuff with the cash-shop.

Because while a focus on the cash-shop is a guarantee for a bad cash-shop and a game negatively effect by it. No focus on it is not a guarantee for that to be gone. Some of your examples where indeed P2P with a bad cash-shop. But not all.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

no. the gem store is fine as it is now.

Except for the fact that is has ruined the game for many people.

Devata.6589:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

no. the gem store is fine as it is now.

Except for the fact that is has ruined the game for many people.

not my problem.

also, the guild wars 2 gem store does not ruin the game for me.

Meehael.8240:

So, would you pay $10 a month for the game if the Gem Store ceases to exist, no need to buy bag and bank slots, expand this, expand that. Pay for boosters of various kind. Buy unlimited mining picks. What not…
That would probably also include less time gating, maybe a bit higher drop rates… You name it!

In short, you get a full service for $10 a month. I’d say if the game’s good, I’d pay that money.

I’m already have full service for free, so… Not, I’ll not pay 10 bucks per month for the same game.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Devata.6589:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

no. the gem store is fine as it is now.

Except for the fact that is has ruined the game for many people.

not my problem.

also, the guild wars 2 gem store does not ruin the game for me.

It has taken a lot of items out of the game.. You can’t go on the hunt for mini’s, dyes (specific colors) skins and so on. That has all been turned into a gold grind.

Going into the world to do such things is exactly what I consider fun.

I did have some fun with WvW and some jumping puzzles but that gets boring at some time. Going into the world to collect those things is fun and can keep you busy for a long time. But it just isn’t in the game except for a gold-grind because of the focus on the gem-store.

And to make thing worse as far as some of these things are in-game it’s behind temporary available achievements. Giving people the feeling they have to do them to not miss out, and then again the 2 weeks later and again 2 weeks later and again 2 weeks later and so on. Great way to burn out people.

But heey, at least they also have an excuse to then also put some new also temporary available item in the gem-store. You want that? Buy it now or you miss out on it.

Oow and it may not be your problem (or it might because as soon as those people start to leave the game will get less and less support) but it makes your statement false. It’s not fine as it is. It’s fine for you (or so you think). Thats something else.

SilverWF.4789:

Meehael.8240:

So, would you pay $10 a month for the game if the Gem Store ceases to exist, no need to buy bag and bank slots, expand this, expand that. Pay for boosters of various kind. Buy unlimited mining picks. What not…
That would probably also include less time gating, maybe a bit higher drop rates… You name it!

In short, you get a full service for $10 a month. I’d say if the game’s good, I’d pay that money.

I’m already have full service for free, so… Not, I’ll not pay 10 bucks per month for the same game.

so how would you feel about an optional subscription model that had a ton of extra perks that the f2p model didn’t have?

Meehael.8240:

So, would you pay $10 a month for the game if the Gem Store ceases to exist, no need to buy bag and bank slots, expand this, expand that. Pay for boosters of various kind. Buy unlimited mining picks. What not…
That would probably also include less time gating, maybe a bit higher drop rates… You name it!

In short, you get a full service for $10 a month. I’d say if the game’s good, I’d pay that money.

I would rather only pay for the things I want. I hop between games a lot. so with subscriptions I end up paying for time I don’t use and spending a lot of time cancelling/re-activating the subscription. I like being able to hand over $10 and get something permanent instead of renting it.

For example, I’ve bought bank expansions and character slots, but I won’t pay for temporary access to the Royal Terrace. I like having the choice. It might be less expensive for me if I wanted every feature that would be offered by a subscription to pay for a month, then cancel, but I’d rather not have to get out my credit card every time I want to login and look around.

I also think in the long run a subscription would be less money in ANet’s pocket (from me at least) than if they add compelling items to the gem store. If there was a skin wardrobe for example, they could charge me a ridiculous amount of money for it and it would probably get me re-engaged with the game for a while.

I also think subscriptions put a lot of pressure on development to appeal to the lowest common denominator where cash shops (in general) encourage making lots of diverse things to encourage impulse buying. Of course cash shops can be done poorly and offer basic necessities to strong arm players into paying (Hellgate, I’m looking at you with your “rent inventory space” model)

With subscriptions, the goal is to get a many people playing for as long as you can, so it discourages the company from spending resources on risky stuff like SAB that doesn’t necessarily appeal to everyone. It also encourages adding more time sinks into the game. The subscription model is all about time and making sure that too many players can’t accomplish whatever they’re after before their monthly subscription renews.

No. I like Sub-Based MMOs, but it’s late to save GW2. It’ s not funny anymore, only grindy and very repetitive. LS failed and still they didn’t change a thing. I won’t give money to a dying game :P

Devata.6589:

It has taken a lot of items out of the game.. You can’t go on the hunt for mini’s, dyes (specific colors) skins and so on. That has all been turned into a gold grind.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mini_Risen_Hylek
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mini_Tequatl_the_Sunless
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mini_Twisted_Watchwork_Moa
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mini_Cobalt_Great_Jungle_Wurm_Head

I see at least 4 mini’s there that are fully possible to “hunt for”, and I believe there are 2 more of the Wurm’s head (seeing as it have 3 heads not just one).

There are also way more unique skins to find out in the world (either traded for tokens, crafted or found as drops from specific mobs) than there have ever been in the gem-store.

I have yet to see a single item being “taken out of the game” just to be put in the gem-store, so please give us a concrete example.

It would depend on the Perks received such as:
>like you don’t need Black Lion Key to open those Chest, and the Chest Offers real good items, Unique Armor piece(back pieces too) which could be store on your Achievement panel, 1-5 Laurels, Gems 50-200, etc. good items
>increase XP, WXP, MF, Money gain
> Crafting boost and %25 Speed boost on 24/7
> plus more things I cant think of, but I believe everyone understands my point, it depends on the Perks.

BUT.. is GW2 as it is now worth paying $15 a month even with the perks I mention? ehhh, sorry I don’t believe so, I like the game, but I play less and less, taking bigger breaks in between play time. If it comes out with a expansion, or expansion size patch (fingers cross for the March patch) I wouldn’t mind an optional Sub fee.

Meehael.8240:

So, would you pay $10 a month for the game if the Gem Store ceases to exist, no need to buy bag and bank slots, expand this, expand that. Pay for boosters of various kind. Buy unlimited mining picks. What not…
That would probably also include less time gating, maybe a bit higher drop rates… You name it!

I most definitely wouldn’t. I already bought the game, why should I keep paying? And I pay regardless whether I play the game or not??? Honestly, I can’t understand how this has ever become an accepted business model.

Also, even if anything from the gem shop would be necessary to play GW2 to its full extent (which fortunately isn’t the case) I still want the liberty to chose whether I pay for new content or not.

Meehael.8240:

That would probably also include less time gating, maybe a bit higher drop rates… You name it!

I fear you are wrong in this point, I come to the complete opposite conjecture. The subscription-based games are the ones that rely heavily on time gateing, not normally bought games. More precisely: The profit of subscription-based games comes largely from deliberately wasting your time to keep you playing indefinitely longer. Only a subscription-free game like GW2 has the liberty to not enforce time gating, and lets you play the game at your own pacing.

Meehael.8240:

In short, you get a full service for $10 a month. I’d say if the game’s good, I’d pay that money.

I’d also encourage everybody to to have a careful look at what business model other subscription-bases games currently try to implement: First they sell you a full-prize game, then they demand a subscription for the privilege to keep playing a game you already bought (as is often claimed “to fund the ongoing development content”), and then let you pay a third time for this new content in the form of (traditional) add-ons or (modern) in-game shops.

TotalBiscuit had once rightfully claimed something along the lines: “If you are paying a subscription to essentially fund the extension and support of a game, then EVERYTHING developed has to be delivered free of charge as part of the service you are already paying for.” I think this observation is spot on, but the parts of the industry that want to enforce subscription fees are moving more and more in the opposite direction.

We as consumers should rather wish that subscription-based games will go the way of the dodo. The sooner, the better.

~MRA

IndigoSundown.5419:

Aquinas.8421:

Ettanin.8271:

GW2 is already sub based, it’s fee is:
(50 / x) USD a month where x is the number of months you plan to play the game.

Well, the difference is price certainty… but still, this is a good point. This entire discussion comes down to a single concern: value.

GW2 certainly gives you great value, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more valuable than a subscription. Like you hinted at, if someone bought GW2 for $50, and only played it for a month, he’d get better ($/month) value out of buying a subscription game and playing for 6 months.

What sub game is that, where there’s no with no box price? And leave Freemium out of it.

The only mmo I can think of atm that has no box price, just a subscription is EVE Online. They also provide RMT by allowing the in-game sale of a month’s play time in the form of pilot’s license. A player can buy extra months of play time and sell them to other players for in-game currency. EVE also has a cash shop and if you think Tyrians react badly to P2W creep….

GW2 PvE has competition. Any time more than one person is attacking a foe, they are dueling for a chance at loot; the more people attacking that foe, the more competitive the duel, the more likely for a non-BiS equipped player to lose the duel.

The biggest problem I have with GW2’s flavor of the B2P/cash shop business model is that it seems designed to be most efficient when the development process is most obfuscated.

NO. Its not that i am cheep or anything but paying a subscription forces you to play. I like to play guild wars when i have the time. Shure the Live story motivates you to play consistently but if u miss something its not a big deal. Paying would be wrong. And that way its better for people who can’t afford the fee. People who have money buy gems, gems pay for the servers we are all happy. Thou i would like to se an expansion. But i must say that the live team is making a huge progress since the beginning and i have faith in a expansion styled update or game expansion.

I’d prefer GW2 went for a subscription Fee.

The game has nothing going for it except Living World that is good for a day or two. It’s just not interesting. This game needs a proper fully fledged Expansion pack with more Dungeons, Areas, Loot, Weapons/Armour, new sets, more skins, less trench-coat designs, more skills, more bosses, better world bosses, more dynamic events, better existing world bosses, and a lot more challenging fights.

The Gem store won’t give us these things. Expect a true Expansion to come out for this game likely late next year. The game is almost dead as it is… We need a sub fee to get more.

Karizee.8076:

I don’t rent games.

This. Wouldn’t pay a sub out of principle, even though I buy gems fairly often.

No. I’m poor.

Devata.6589:

It has taken a lot of items out of the game.. You can’t go on the hunt for mini’s, dyes (specific colors) skins and so on.

Which specific dye colors, skins, and minis were in the game world but were removed to be put into the gem shop ?

Do you have anything at all to show that they would have existed at all if not tied directly to a source of funding such as the gem shop ?

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

It has taken a lot of items out of the game.. You can’t go on the hunt for mini’s, dyes (specific colors) skins and so on.

Which specific dye colors, skins, and minis were in the game world but were removed to be put into the gem shop ?

Do you have anything at all to show that they would have existed at all if not tied directly to a source of funding such as the gem shop ?

No dyes were specifically taken out, but the decision to turn them from account to character when used was a cash shop decision.

Seera.5916:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

It has taken a lot of items out of the game.. You can’t go on the hunt for mini’s, dyes (specific colors) skins and so on.

Which specific dye colors, skins, and minis were in the game world but were removed to be put into the gem shop ?

Do you have anything at all to show that they would have existed at all if not tied directly to a source of funding such as the gem shop ?

No dyes were specifically taken out, but the decision to turn them from account to character when used was a cash shop decision.

I personally would have hated the growing one dye at a time, process that preceded the current implementation.

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

It has taken a lot of items out of the game.. You can’t go on the hunt for mini’s, dyes (specific colors) skins and so on.

Which specific dye colors, skins, and minis were in the game world but were removed to be put into the gem shop ?

Do you have anything at all to show that they would have existed at all if not tied directly to a source of funding such as the gem shop ?

No dyes were specifically taken out, but the decision to turn them from account to character when used was a cash shop decision.

I personally would have hated the growing one dye at a time, process that preceded the current implementation.

So you actually like having to get your favorite dye numerous times if you have alts and want to use it on them?

Once you unlock a dye on one character, it’s only unlocked for that character. You have to get lucky or buy the dye again to unlock it on another character and again and again and again.

yup. gemstore system doesn’t ruin my GW2 experience too.

fine as it is.

Karizee.8076:

I don’t rent games.

Yes, you do.

Seera.5916:

So you actually like having to get your favorite dye numerous times if you have alts and want to use it on them?

Having to spend time to “grow” each dye that I might want individually, one at a time, could mean spending months to be able to properly outfit a single character. Having those dyes then be available for alts is only beneficial if I intend to use the same exact colors on multiple characters.

Why would I be interested in pursuing color options for multiple characters if the system was so completely obnoxious for one ?

Seera.5916:

Once you unlock a dye on one character, it’s only unlocked for that character. You have to get lucky or buy the dye again to unlock it on another character and again and again and again.

Spending a few copper or silver, perhaps even a gold, to buy colors for an alt is much less restrictive than having to spend days.

The previous iteration of the dye system time gated dye access to the point that the current system, with character bound dyes, is much more alt friendly than the old system despite it being account bound.

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

So you actually like having to get your favorite dye numerous times if you have alts and want to use it on them?

Having to spend time to “grow” each dye that I might want individually, one at a time, could mean spending months to be able to properly outfit a single character. Having those dyes then be available for alts is only beneficial if I intend to use the same exact colors on multiple characters.

Why would I be interested in pursuing color options for multiple characters if the system was so completely obnoxious for one ?

Seera.5916:

Once you unlock a dye on one character, it’s only unlocked for that character. You have to get lucky or buy the dye again to unlock it on another character and again and again and again.

Spending a few copper or silver, perhaps even a gold, to buy colors for an alt is much less restrictive than having to spend days.

The previous iteration of the dye system time gated dye access to the point that the current system, with character bound dyes, is much more alt friendly than the old system despite it being account bound.

Personally, I’d rather have different colors on different characters than use the same colors on multiples. I’m partial to dark colors (so, sue me), so I have several characters that use dark colors — however, only two of them have a true black (Midnight Ice), while the rest use other midnight variations. I honestly don’t find the current system at all restrictive, but would have hated the old system, which sounds like crafting to me.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

So you actually like having to get your favorite dye numerous times if you have alts and want to use it on them?

Having to spend time to “grow” each dye that I might want individually, one at a time, could mean spending months to be able to properly outfit a single character. Having those dyes then be available for alts is only beneficial if I intend to use the same exact colors on multiple characters.

Why would I be interested in pursuing color options for multiple characters if the system was so completely obnoxious for one ?

Seera.5916:

Once you unlock a dye on one character, it’s only unlocked for that character. You have to get lucky or buy the dye again to unlock it on another character and again and again and again.

Spending a few copper or silver, perhaps even a gold, to buy colors for an alt is much less restrictive than having to spend days.

The previous iteration of the dye system time gated dye access to the point that the current system, with character bound dyes, is much more alt friendly than the old system despite it being account bound.

Personally, I’d rather have different colors on different characters than use the same colors on multiples. I’m partial to dark colors (so, sue me), so I have several characters that use dark colors — however, only two of them have a true black (Midnight Ice), while the rest use other midnight variations. I honestly don’t find the current system at all restrictive, but would have hated the old system, which sounds like crafting to me.

I’d rather have acquisition like it is now but unlocking them is account bound. I do tend to use different colors on different characters but I like options. I’d rather unlock all colors on all characters without having to buy the colors multiple times than have to lock myself into one set of colors because the other scheme colors are on another character and some of the dyes are just too expensive to buy. A few silver, ok fine. But a few fold or more? No thank you. Not when in a few months or so I may prefer a different color scheme.

Bit the primary reason behind the change from account to character was money. They’ve already shown that they have no issue releasing crafting with time gates.

Spiuk.8421:

Karizee.8076:

I don’t rent games.

Yes, you do.

No, you don’t. You can buy it, use it and then sell it. You can not do that when you rent.

frans.8092:

Spiuk.8421:

Karizee.8076:

I don’t rent games.

Yes, you do.

No, you don’t. You can buy it, use it and then sell it. You can not do that when you rent.

Read the Guild Wars 2 EULA "again", you rented an account until Anet says so.

And no explanations will be given upon termination.

Meehael.8240:

So, would you pay $10 a month for the game if the Gem Store ceases to exist, no need to buy bag and bank slots, expand this, expand that. Pay for boosters of various kind. Buy unlimited mining picks. What not…
That would probably also include less time gating, maybe a bit higher drop rates… You name it!

In short, you get a full service for $10 a month. I’d say if the game’s good, I’d pay that money.

In short. That’s a bargain.

Yes!

Swagger.1459:

SilverWF.4789:

Meehael.8240:

So, would you pay $10 a month for the game if the Gem Store ceases to exist, no need to buy bag and bank slots, expand this, expand that. Pay for boosters of various kind. Buy unlimited mining picks. What not…
That would probably also include less time gating, maybe a bit higher drop rates… You name it!

In short, you get a full service for $10 a month. I’d say if the game’s good, I’d pay that money.

I’m already have full service for free, so… Not, I’ll not pay 10 bucks per month for the same game.

so how would you feel about an optional subscription model that had a ton of extra perks that the f2p model didn’t have?

What kind of perks? What they can do to make this game more easier? O.o

Seera.5916:

I’d rather have acquisition like it is now but unlocking them is account bound.

As would I.

I just wanted to point out that the system that existed prior to the current one was actually worse. What we have now is an improvement, changed because of beta player feedback, than what was originally designed.

Spiuk.8421:

Read the Guild Wars 2 EULA “again”, you rented an account until Anet says so.

And no explanations will be given upon termination.

MMO’s are generally both products and services. In the case of a game which charges for the product, you buy the product. Doing so gives you access to the ongoing service, which is either free (as is the case with any B2P game), or which you pay a fee to access (in the case of P2P). In either case, the company owns the servers, and can sunset the game at will, denying everyone access.

As you say, ANet is licensing access to the game, not selling the game. They could, in fact, decide to charge a fee for continued access, although this would be criticized as a breach of faith (not breach of contract) were they to do so.

All of that said, the necessity to pay a monthly fee to access an MMO’s servers feels like renting a game — just as you would rent a console game from a service that offers such. However, the one-payment license used for GW and GW2 generates a sense that one is not renting — even though, legally, one is.

Spiuk.8421:

frans.8092:

Spiuk.8421:

Karizee.8076:

I don’t rent games.

Yes, you do.

No, you don’t. You can buy it, use it and then sell it. You can not do that when you rent.

Read the Guild Wars 2 EULA “again”, you rented an account until Anet says so.

And no explanations will be given upon termination.

Do read them, I am sure there’s something about applicable law in most, if not all EULA’s. I can sell my copy of a game no matter what you think about it. We have shops buying and reselling used games and software.

frans.8092:

Spiuk.8421:

frans.8092:

Spiuk.8421:

Karizee.8076:

I don’t rent games.

Yes, you do.

No, you don’t. You can buy it, use it and then sell it. You can not do that when you rent.

Read the Guild Wars 2 EULA “again”, you rented an account until Anet says so.

And no explanations will be given upon termination.

Do read them, I am sure there’s something about applicable law in most, if not all EULA’s. I can sell my copy of a game no matter what you think about it. We have shops buying and reselling used games and software.

A service account is generally not a game or software in that sense. Even if your local laws allow you to sell the disc that your game came on, or the hard drive holding your copy of the game, the buyer will end up needing to buy an account to be able to use the software.

Now if your local law allows you to sell a non transferable service account, that is something different entirely. If so, congratulations.

Honestly, I very much doubt the gemstore would cease to exist in a case of subscriptions. How many successful sub-based MMOs do you know that don’t have a cash shop?

Also, we know that GW2 is doing just fine with the gemstore.

I’d probably pay a fee for GW2, because I really enjoy the game, but I’d feel much more strongly about any changes which are not to my liking…also, I’d hate having to pay for it.

Ashen.2907:

A service account is generally not a game or software in that sense.

That is true, can’t find a thing about that – it’s a relatively new concept in a fast changing environment. I could imagine the sale of accounts with fully equipped and levelled characters as something they’d have a good reason to want to prevent account from being sold.

No, this game is not worth a monthly fee from what I have seen so far.

If GW2 switched to a sub model, I really think they would lose out on money. They have loaded up their store so much with RNG that it has basically become virtual gambling, and there is a LOT of money to be made with that. Folks with gambling problems would dump as much cash into the game as they have available to try to RNG their way to nice stuff. I wouldn’t be surprised to find some folks paying $200+ per month in gems.

I’m not sure a $10 per month subscription would be able to make up for that loss…

Devata.6589:

I went to the WoW shop to have a look.
It has 11 mini’s (what might be to much but the game is also out for 9 years so if they would release one every year you would already be close to those 11)

For other people (that like the more RP elements like collecting mini’s) GW2’s cash-shop and how they influence the game to get you to buy items makes it among the worst cash-shops there are.

Ok, so far GW2’s cash shop is exactly like WoW’s cash shop. Most of the minis are available in game, BLTC, special events, meta achievements, or convert gold to gems. Only a few minis are available in the cash shop (holiday minis). What about RP elements in WoW where people collect all the minis? I’m sure they love the fact they have to pay $ for those 11 minis in the cash shop /sarcasm. At least in GW2, they can convert gold to gems, unlike WoW. This automatically makes GW2’s cash shop substantially better to WoW’s.

Devata.6589:

It has 7 mounts (should really not be any more)

Why does WoW have any mounts in the cash shop? I’m sure these mounts are better than all the lvl 30 starter mounts in game. Anyone who pays for these mounts will have a better mount at an earlier level than those who do not. Guild wars 2 has one item that some consider a “mount”, the broom. It can only be worn as town clothes, and offers no speed boost. I think that is much more fair than WoW’s. Again, it looks like GW2’s “cash shop” is significantly better.

Devata.6589:

It has 3 helms and 5 payed services: Name changer, full make-over, character transfer and Race Changer, faction change.

So does Guild Wars 2. GW2’s cash shop offers name changes, full makeover, character transfers, and cosmetic armors. No race/profession changers at this time. So in this respect, WoW cash shop and GW2 cash shop are exactly alike.

Devata.6589:

Ingame there is in no way a push to buy anything from the cahs-shop.

There is also no push to buy ANY of the GW2 items in the cash shop.

Devata.6589:

The services are exactly the kind of things that might be in a cash-shop. It are things that are outside of the game. Changing your name or changing the complete look or changing race and so on is not an element of the game. It’s that sort of services I always point at as an example of the type of items that can indeed be in a cash-shop without effecting the game.

These things are also in GW2’s cash shop.

Devata.6589:

The people behind ESO also stated that they would not have a normal cash-shop but just some things like a name-changer.

It is still a cash shop, and you still have to buy a name changer which could cost anywhere between $10, and $25. The point of this thread is, pay to play should not, and does not, have a cash shop of any kind at all. This clearly is a good example. Shouldn’t this service be free since everyone is a paying subscriber? Yes, it should shouldn’kitten So why a cash shop at all?

Devata.6589:

So I am sorry but your comparison is very flawed.

I think I was dead on.

Devata.6589:

There are many different types of cash-shops. But the cash-shop always becomes a problem when the company focuses on the cash-shop to generate income.

All cash shops are the same, you can pay for something in game with real money. This is why a cash shop exists, to generate income. Why should every pay to play MMO have one if you are paying monthly? Because they can generate even more money with a forced and unnecessary subscription.

Devata.6589:

Not saying that there might be P2P games that still had a bad cash-shop and I also agree that the mini’s, mounts and helms should not be in the cash-shop of WoW but overall it’s still very limited.

Ok, first, every P2P game I can think of has a cash shop. If you know of any at all that has no cash shop, please mention it, because I frankly don’t know of any. You just said earlier that WoW’s cash shop wasn’t so bad because it was mostly cosmetic items, but then you list all the cosmetic items as being bad and you think shouldn’t be in there!

Devata.6589:

You act like if every cash-shop is the same. It isn’t.

I’ve played many MMOs. I’ve been around the block a lot. I can assure you cash shops have many faces but their agendas are all the same.

Devata.6589:

Some people say GW2 cash-shop isn’t one of the worse because it does not have P2W items but thats only true if your main game-play is combat.

Please give me an example of what you think is pay to win in GW2’s cash shop. I don’t see any pay to win items. Maple Story’s cash shop has an item you can buy for $30 that you can use to automatically make yourself level 100. I don’t see anything in GW2’s cash shop that makes you instantly level 80. Heck, I don’t even see anything that makes you instantly level $20. There are games where the fastest mounts are available in the cash shop for $40 (I’m looking at you Neverwinter and Dragon’s Prophet) which clearly gives an advantage over players who do not want to spend $40 on a mount. So what exactly are you seeing in GW2’s shop that is so pay to win?

Devata.6589:

For other people (that like the more RP elements like collecting mini’s) GW2’s cash-shop and how they influence the game to get you to buy items makes it among the worst cash-shops there are.

Ok, we’ve already established WoW’s cash shop has exclusive minis inside of it, yet their cash shop is fine according to you. Guild Wars 2 has a few exclusive minis via cash shop, and that makes it “…among the worst cash shops there are”.

The whole game is a gold-grind making the game much less fun but trying to convince you of buying gems to convert to gold.

Oh come now. Have you played any other MMO out there in the past 10 years? MapleStory, Mabinogi, Vindictus, Diablo III, WoW, Aion, Tera, Rift, Guild Wars 1, only to name a few all have gold grinds. Inflation is rampant in at least 4 of those games. Where it costs 1,300,000,000,000 (yeah you read that correctly) mesos to buy a level 100 weapon in Maple Story, when 5 years ago that same item only costed 1,000,000 mesos. Every MMO is a gold grind. Every. MMO. Is. A. Gold. Grind. Period.

Devata.6589:

GW2’s cash shop and the focus on it and how it effect the game is simply not the same as with some of the games you refer to.

Again, I disagree, I think I hit the nail on the head. GW2’s cash shop is purely cosmetic. It is no different than WoW’s, except the fact WoW has mounts in its cash shop.

Devata.6589:

BTW, this is not to say I want subscriptions. I don’t. I just wanted to point out that what you where saying is not really valid and that cash-shops do effect the game.

They only affect the game with cute minis and pink heart shaped weapons that offer no increase in stats. Cmon, they’re not selling legendaries for cash here.

Devata.6589:

I would much rather have them focusing on expansion to generate income. That could potentially solve many problems.. if they then indeed undo all the stuff with the cash-shop.

Wow has had many expansions and still has a cash shop. How will making an expansion eliminate the need for a cash shop? It clearly has not worked in other MMOs. Aion, Rift have also had expansions and they still have cash shops.

Devata.6589:

Because while a focus on the cash-shop is a guarantee for a bad cash-shop and a game negatively effect by it. No focus on it is not a guarantee for that to be gone. Some of your examples where indeed P2P with a bad cash-shop. But not all.

Please try any MMO out there. I can guarantee their cash shops are far worse. I’ve played the worst MMOs out there and the best MMOs out there and I can tell you this cash shop has been the tamest one. Heck, even Assassin’s Creed and Red Dead Redemption, (WHICH ARE NOT MMOS!!!!!!!!) have had “expansions” and a “cash shop” with things like overpowered new weapons that break the game, new clothes and unlockable characters, upgrades not normally accessible through gameplay, etc.

The mounts in the WoW cash shop are purely cosmetic and do not offer a speed, or any other, advantage. Yes, they also sell minis but you forget that players are able to collect hundreds of pets in the open world.

MRA.4758:

I’d also encourage everybody to to have a careful look at what business model other subscription-bases games currently try to implement: First they sell you a full-prize game, then they demand a subscription for the privilege to keep playing a game you already bought (as is often claimed “to fund the ongoing development content”), and then let you pay a third time for this new content in the form of (traditional) add-ons or (modern) in-game shops.

TotalBiscuit had once rightfully claimed something along the lines: “If you are paying a subscription to essentially fund the extension and support of a game, then EVERYTHING developed has to be delivered free of charge as part of the service you are already paying for.” I think this observation is spot on, but the parts of the industry that want to enforce subscription fees are moving more and more in the opposite direction.

We as consumers should rather wish that subscription-based games will go the way of the dodo. The sooner, the better.

~MRA

Finally, someone else in this thread gets it! I was starting to abandon all hope. I want to give this guy a high five.

Pay for a game ($60), then pay monthly for it ($15), then pay for the expansion ($60), then pay monthly again ($15), then pay for the next expansion ($60), then pay monthly ($15). Wake up, this is WoW’s pay to play model folks. Yes, you do pay for the game initially, and the supposed monthly sub is to cover expansion costs? So then why are you paying for the expansion? Why isn’t it free? I can tell you why, because you all have “SUCKER” written on your foreheads. You’ve been had, and lied to. Blizzard knows it can get away with it, so they continue to do this. I guess all these monthly subscribers either don’t care, or have nothing better to do than throw their money at the screen all day.

Free to play games such as Mabinogi, Maple Story, and Vindictus (all run by Nexon) have aggressive cash shops with a lot of “pay to win” elements, yet their major expansions are all free. Interesting.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

The mounts in the WoW cash shop are purely cosmetic and do not offer a speed, or any other, advantage. Yes, they also sell minis but you forget that players are able to collect hundreds of pets in the open world.

Yes, and you forget there are hundreds of minis you can collect in Guild Wars 2 without spending a dime of real money on them. Most minis are less than a gold each on the trading post. Some minis are from achievements and special events. Some minis drop from mobs (Southsun Cove minis).

WatchTheShow.7203:

MRA.4758:

I’d also encourage everybody to to have a careful look at what business model other subscription-bases games currently try to implement: First they sell you a full-prize game, then they demand a subscription for the privilege to keep playing a game you already bought (as is often claimed “to fund the ongoing development content”), and then let you pay a third time for this new content in the form of (traditional) add-ons or (modern) in-game shops.

TotalBiscuit had once rightfully claimed something along the lines: “If you are paying a subscription to essentially fund the extension and support of a game, then EVERYTHING developed has to be delivered free of charge as part of the service you are already paying for.” I think this observation is spot on, but the parts of the industry that want to enforce subscription fees are moving more and more in the opposite direction.

We as consumers should rather wish that subscription-based games will go the way of the dodo. The sooner, the better.

~MRA

Finally, someone else in this thread gets it! I was starting to abandon all hope. I want to give this guy a high five.

Pay for a game ($60), then pay monthly for it ($15), then pay for the expansion ($60), then pay monthly again ($15), then pay for the next expansion ($60), then pay monthly ($15). Wake up, this is WoW’s pay to play model folks. Yes, you do pay for the game initially, and the supposed monthly sub is to cover expansion costs? So then why are you paying for the expansion? Why isn’t it free? I can tell you why, because you all have “SUCKER” written on your foreheads. You’ve been had, and lied to. Blizzard knows it can get away with it, so they continue to do this. I guess all these monthly subscribers either don’t care, or have nothing better to do than throw their money at the screen all day.

Free to play games such as Mabinogi, Maple Story, and Vindictus (all run by Nexon) have aggressive cash shops with a lot of “pay to win” elements, yet their major expansions are all free. Interesting.

I just find it funny that the first thing many GW2 players cite as the reason for playing is the lack of a sub fee. You’d think they would mention the fun aspects or the “awesome” living story, but nope.

I really don’t get some of these arguments. I pay $8 a month for Netflix. So, am I “throwing my money away” if I don’t use the service 24/7? No, because I’m paying for a service and I understand what that entails. And that applies to sub MMOs as well.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

The mounts in the WoW cash shop are purely cosmetic and do not offer a speed, or any other, advantage. Yes, they also sell minis but you forget that players are able to collect hundreds of pets in the open world.

Yes, and you forget there are hundreds of minis you can collect in Guild Wars 2 without spending a dime of real money on them. Most minis are less than a gold each on the trading post. Some minis are from achievements and special events. Some minis drop from mobs (Southsun Cove minis).

The difference is that WoWs cash shop is all fluff, while GW2’s cash shop sells real improvements, like bag slots and bank tabs.

frans.8092:

Spiuk.8421:

frans.8092:

Spiuk.8421:

Karizee.8076:

I don’t rent games.

Yes, you do.

No, you don’t. You can buy it, use it and then sell it. You can not do that when you rent.

Read the Guild Wars 2 EULA “again”, you rented an account until Anet says so.

And no explanations will be given upon termination.

Do read them, I am sure there’s something about applicable law in most, if not all EULA’s. I can sell my copy of a game no matter what you think about it. We have shops buying and reselling used games and software.

Just because there are shops that sell used video games doesn’t make it legal to do, the GW2 EULA says you can’t.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

The difference is that WoWs cash shop is all fluff, while GW2’s cash shop sells real improvements, like bag slots and bank tabs.

Ultimately, these arguments devolve down to, “Which game do you like better,” where that game is perceived to be superior.

• On bag slots — WoW gives you four bag slots for “free.” So does GW2. GW2 allows you to exceed the 4 bag slots, WoW does not.
• On the bank — WoW allows you to buy bag slots in your bank, which cost gold. You can spend gold in GW2 to buy gems, to then buy bank tabs.

I’m not seeing a ton of difference, other than that I can have more bag slots in GW2.

No, I would not pay a subscription for GW2.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

The difference is that WoWs cash shop is all fluff, while GW2’s cash shop sells real improvements, like bag slots and bank tabs.

Ultimately, these arguments devolve down to, “Which game do you like better,” where that game is perceived to be superior.

• On bag slots — WoW gives you four bag slots for “free.” So does GW2. GW2 allows you to exceed the 4 bag slots, WoW does not.
• On the bank — WoW allows you to buy bag slots in your bank, which cost gold. You can spend gold in GW2 to buy gems, to then buy bank tabs.

I’m not seeing a ton of difference, other than that I can have more bag slots in GW2.

I can have four extra bag slots for free and use 28 slot bags + the 16 slot starter bag. It’s more than enough because I don’t have junk overflowing from my bags like I did in GW2. I can also buy 7 bank slots for gold in addition to the starter 24 slot bank for less that fifty cents worth of gold.

Who converts gold to gems anymore? The conversion rate is terrible.