Guild Wars 2

So…I understand both sides of the gear treadmill argument, and I understand ANet’s desire to create a game without one. And I’m fine with that, and sort of view GW2 as an experiment on that front. What happens here will probably affect how future games look at progression and the need for it.

My problem is not the lack of a gear treadmill, but the lack of any significant carrot that gives me a feeling that I really want to go do that.

When I first read the early beta info on GW2, I was under the impression that that carrot would be weapon and armor skins. I admit I was skeptical, because from a design stand point I tend to feel that more players than not desire a bit more. But I was open to the possibility that graphical uberness might be enough to make people want items that in all other ways were identical to run of the mill ones anyone could get.

The problem is…those items have yet to materialize. With the exception of the legendaries (and some holiday items), there are no items in the game that the attaining of will really give anyone a feeling that they’ve got something special. Virtually every skin in the game is attainable by everyone with a fairly small amount of effort…most often either dungeon runs for tokens or crafting. In fact, there has never been a time in my play since release that I have EVER seen someone pass by and though, “ooooo, I want one of those!” Or “I need to get THAT!” The only thing that draws my attention usually is “woah, what kind of freaked out color scheme is that guy wearing?”

I feel like if the no-gear progression system is to work, there need to be more items that have distinct graphics that are at least mildly difficult to attain. Items that aren’t simply a matter of grinding a few tokens. Whether rare drops, or rewards from particularly hard boss fights, or difficult quest chains…heck there could even be solo instances that are extremely difficult to complete. Something that gives players something to aspire to.

As it is now, I haven’t even seen half the dungeons, just the ones that drop the tokens I want, and while I feel like I really should make some effort to get to the other ones…it’s hard for me to drum up the incentive.

At the end of the day, for a great many people these games are SimCharacter. It’s all about the character and building him or her up. If there’s nothing to build, it’s hard to care.

The major carrot right now are the Ascended items which are available from laurel vendors and within FotM. They have a higher power level than exotics/legendaries and they are most definitely the main carrot to chase in overall character development.

I think you’re missing the point. It’s not about power and such. The ascended rings, neck, etc…are not even visible on your character. Their stated carrot was cool looking skins to set characters apart…those skins don’t really exist. There are some interesting skins, but they don’t set characters apart or really provide much of a carrot because they are relatively simple to get and everyone that wants them has them.

It’s true…the fractal ones add one avenue for a different skin. But that’s only one avenue…and they’re not particularly good looking (though that’s not really the point either).

Emosewa.9731:

I think you’re missing the point. It’s not about power and such. The ascended rings, neck, etc…are not even visible on your character. Their stated carrot was cool looking skins to set characters apart…those skins don’t really exist. There are some interesting skins, but they don’t set characters apart or really provide much of a carrot because they are relatively simple to get and everyone that wants them has them.

It’s true…the fractal ones add one avenue for a different skin. But that’s only one avenue…and they’re not particularly good looking (though that’s not really the point either).

I was addressing the actual current carrot in the game and that carrot has changed. Cool looking skins was the carrot at launch. More powerful gear is the current carrot numero uno as you will witness from the investment in sources of its acquisition.

I agree that the variety and spice of skins has been slow to materialize, but there have been a number of cool looking ones discovered and more will be coming. I would recommend you check out sites like this one (and others) for updated info:

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/07/gw2-greatsword-skin-gallery/

Emosewa.9731:

It’s true…the fractal ones add one avenue for a different skin. But that’s only one avenue…and they’re not particularly good looking (though that’s not really the point either).

When it is exactly what you asking for. They are elite in regard to how hard it is to get them.
It’s only one avenue as you said but it’s showing direction when this is going and should be the answer to your question.

The problem is the second part of the quote. You don’t like them and so is a huge part of community. So how can anyone expect that they can occupy their whole community just by adding new skins? When there is such a big chance that each time they iterate and add new ones, a huge part of their community won’t see the point of getting them.

PS. Personally I love Fractal Weapon skins

I miss the days when people played games for the entertainment of playing a game. When the only carrot was getting better and doing better than before.

I think that the original philosophy of armor and weapon skins being this so called “carrot” is still viable and still standing, but they need to get to work on making new armor skins and stop making an endless stream of town outfits.

Do you play the game for the reward, or for the gameplay itself?

Emosewa.9731:

Virtually every skin in the game is attainable by everyone with a fairly small amount of effort…most often either dungeon runs for tokens or crafting.

Try crafting a full exotic set using only materials you harvest/loot.
It is no small effort when you are constantly fighting already low drop rates that get crippled by DR. Perhaps you are “uber” like so many others who play the game, but for casual players, it is a pain in the kitten to gather materials in the open world.

The only way things in this game are difficult to obtain is for a player to enforce their own limits. Otherwise, like so many others do, you just pull out your credit card and pay to win.

Try getting a full cultural T3 set. You have to work pretty hard, or get lucky in making the money. It took me a lot of dungeon runs, and material farming to get mine. That’s if you don’t go the route of buying lots of gems to convert on a good day.

How about special recipes per dungeon based upon the theme of the dungeon. Or based upon a specific boss at the end of a long event chain. Region specific armor/weapons. Rare weapons/armor only attainable from specific bosses. Even better make them relevant in some way to the dungeon, boss, event chain that the player is working towards.
Example: I would Love one of those whip type weapons we get during heart quest. It’s already in the game but not usable as a weapon at this time.
And as a Ranger it would be appropriate since our pets are extremely slow to respond, if at all, when pressing F2. /joke

Emosewa.9731:

In fact, there has never been a time in my play since release that I have EVER seen someone pass by and though, “ooooo, I want one of those!” Or “I need to get THAT!” The only thing that draws my attention usually is “woah, what kind of freaked out color scheme is that guy wearing?”

Obviously, personal aesthetics are very subjective and not everyone will have that reaction about the textures currently available in the game, but I know what you mean. I do have moments when some player’s outfit turns my head, but I agree the texture selection isn’t terribly wide. I think part of the problem is that this game is still relatively new, so it hasn’t had time to build up a wide range of looks. WoW has a ton of armor textures, but it’s been out for almost 9 years, that’s 18 times how long GW2’s been around. So part of it might just be it needs a bit more time.

On a less serious note, another part of the fashion problem might be the players themselves. Good fashion sense is not universal, so when you let the players assemble their own outfits and pick their own colors, you’ll probably end up with more misses than hits

Everyone makes good points, but I’m still not convinced that it’s enough from a design standpoint to hold people’s attention. Again, I’m not trying to make a rant post, but really find answers that can improve my game experience…I do enjoy GW2 for the most part, but find it harder and harder to feel like playing. And I don’t think I’m alone in having a guild that has had most of its people quit playing or drop to playing a few times a month. And a lot of that I feel has to do with no “carrot” to drive us to do more.

Yes…some of the content can be fun, and the whole play the game to play idea is great on the surface. But honestly, most of the content is pretty similar…and at least plays similar. As I said in the original post, I think that MMO’s really could be called SimCharacter games. We all love our characters and enjoy developing and adding to them…but there needs to be something that seems exciting to develop or add. In this case, there just doesn’t feel like there is much.

Fractal weapons are definitely a good example…and yes, just because I think they look a little weak doesn’t mean everyone does. My point wasn’t so much that they’re ugly but that they are the only choice really for an item that feels a little bit special to get (other than legendaries).

And yes, haha, people just have bad fashion sense too…but I’m thinking even individual items. For example, someone could have a disaster of a full outfit that has shoulderpad that just make you go WOW! You might not want the rest of their outfit but you find yourself thinking, those shoulders rock!

It is true that I feel most of the armor skins are pretty weak, and that may be adding to the lack of desire to really work on them. Crafteing a full exotic set really isn’t that hard, though I haven’t done it. I think I can make 3 pieces right now if I want to just from what I’ve collected with normal play…and making money if you play the auction house is pretty easy. Made 3 or 4 gold the other night in 20 minutes….just have to find something that is selling fast in high volumn with a good ratio and buy and sell like crazy until the ratio drops.

Anyway, I guess my question is really…what keeps people playing regularly? How many people really play just to play content again? And how many are working toward something they want to achieve or attain?

Emosewa.9731:

I think you’re missing the point. It’s not about power and such. The ascended rings, neck, etc…are not even visible on your character. Their stated carrot was cool looking skins to set characters apart…those skins don’t really exist. There are some interesting skins, but they don’t set characters apart or really provide much of a carrot because they are relatively simple to get and everyone that wants them has them.

It’s true…the fractal ones add one avenue for a different skin. But that’s only one avenue…and they’re not particularly good looking (though that’s not really the point either).

Remember when Obisdian Armour was all the rage in Guildwars because it meant something and then Vabbi armour

Guildwars2 needs to look at guildwars and pick up the things that were good about it and apply into guildwars2.

People are more than willing to chase a carrot that is just a cosmetic item which gave you status symbol.

Either you’re rich or you’re good enough in the game to earn those.

I think in time, there will be more and better skins. The fractal weapons are definitely a step in the right direction…and they don’t start dropping until level 20. I also think that a set of Arah armor is pretty hard to get, but I don’t like it enough to bother.

The first item in this game that was really must have for me, was the legendary trident Kraitkin. That thing is AWESOME! Then again, I really like snakes. lol

Hehe…I suppose they just added Fused weapons…but instead of making them something to work towards though game content, they are lottery winnings. sigh

Emosewa.9731:

Hehe…I suppose they just added Fused weapons…but instead of making them something to work towards though game content, they are lottery winnings. sigh

I know. It’s annoying. Even I’m annoyed, but what can you do. On the bright side, I like the fractal weapons more than the fused weapons.

The problem is that so many people are trained from earlier MMOs to look for the carrot that they fail to see the buffet they just walked past.

VOLKON.1290:

The problem is that so many people are trained from earlier MMOs to look for the carrot that they fail to see the buffet they just walked past.

Quoted for truth!

I don’t really agree with that. I think we all see a lot of the good things in GW2…but there’s nothing wrong with wanting something for your character to aspire to.

Vayne.8563:

I think in time, there will be more and better skins. The fractal weapons are definitely a step in the right direction…and they don’t start dropping until level 20. I also think that a set of Arah armor is pretty hard to get, but I don’t like it enough to bother.

The first item in this game that was really must have for me, was the legendary trident Kraitkin. That thing is AWESOME! Then again, I really like snakes. lol

I agree. And the funny thing is, being a casual player with limited time, the legendary has been a welcome letdown. I mean aside from the trident I didn’t see any that I just ‘had to have’. I am actually grateful for that for now.
I think what I enjoy most is coming up with builds that are fun (for me) to play and make them work. Unfortunately the ones I have the most fun with are not viable for WvW at all atm. I can still enjoy them in PvE but I have to save up gold to re-gear them for WvW and then play them in such a way that isn’t really my play style.
I wish there was a way to make gear cosmetic with base stats and the character was the one that progressed and added stats to the gear, not the other way around.

How about some new armor skins. When are we gonna get those.

We need legendary armor. Per piece takes 5 hours to make in the mystic forge and the materials will take at least year to get per piece.

That’s 6 years and 30 hours

Playing the game IS the carrot. Its silly to think that the game it self is not the carrot its just as bad as thinking that you MUST eat food to get a sweet treat at the end of it when the fact that you could eat is the reward for work.

The main problem for some is just that the only challenging content is quite limited, so the prestige is not that common.

People wearing full ascended armour skins would be very rare if fractals keep scaling up and up :p

Still you can probably tell someone is at least decently skilled if they have a full dungeon/pvp set.

Raine.1394:

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/07/gw2-greatsword-skin-gallery/

Funny I’ve looked at that site many times (when I still played) while GS shopping and I just noticed one of my screenshots was in the bunch.

Budg.3064:

I miss the days when people played games for the entertainment of playing a game. When the only carrot was getting better and doing better than before.

You need to go back to arcade games for that. MMO’s have always had carrots.

Poledo.3256:

Budg.3064:

I miss the days when people played games for the entertainment of playing a game. When the only carrot was getting better and doing better than before.

You need to go back to arcade games for that. MMO’s have always had carrots.

Doesn’t mean it’s a good thing.

A huge variety of armor and weapon skins useable no matter what I’m doing in the game. not too easily obtained, and a way to “learn” or store great quantities of them would be a pretty good carrot for me. Just as an aside, carrots come in bunches, so hopefully there would be plenty of other incentives with time, as well.