Guild Wars 2

some players are lazy as hell. They dont experiment with builds, traits… because they jumped on the all zerker-dps build bandwagon and they dont have the skill to play that
So it looks like this
CoF PUG
We gonna skip the trash mobs so they scatter run individually trough bunch of mobs and die and die and die…
Boss fight ? 3outta 5 are dead within 10 sec
Group disbanded.
Same goes for fractals

tigirius.9014:

Lokki.1092:

Aisa.2817:

So basically, we have to keep ourselves alive and work as a team to get through dungeons. What’s wrong with that?

Work as a team? Are we playing the same (PvE) game. My teams seem to work like this.

1. Get in group
2. No need to speak to anyone unless someone doesn’t know what to do
3. Wait for cut scenes.
4. Skip what needs to be skipped
5. Kill what needs to be killed.
6. Type in /s “P2 P3?” or “Ty”

Repeat.

There is no teamwork. Those player may as well be DPS bots or NPCs. Nothing I can do will save them nothing they can do will save me. And we are all better off DPSing our faces off and just avoiding damage in the first place.

that’s been my experience too. DPS bots all in zerker cookie cutter builds across the board, no purpose to anyone just DPS down the boss a total #1 spam fest in dungeons.

They wouldn’t harm anything by adding trinity lite to the game, not in the slightest. By adding the choices for CC condition damage and support fixing them so they are relevant again they’d actually be improving the combat for many.

What’s the difference between this and looking for healbots/tankbots? I don’t really interact with healers during a dungeon except for the hour it takes to recruit one.

As far as the control/support trinity goes, sure that should be buffed immensely since these actually influence teamplay.

I’ve said it countless times before, there is plenty of support in this game.

Holy trinity has no place in modern games. Just look at the way you play. When running AC, at the traps when Detha is repairing them there are waves of enemies that spawns and runs at you. The waves consists of different classes. We always used to focus elementalists first than necros, than the rest. We choose who to fight. Why should the AI we fight go for somebody who it can not kill? The AI should target those that endanger it the most or those that mess with what it should protect or has some kind of relation to. The trinity is a remnant of old times, as the technology and creativity goes forward the mechanics should change.

However, this should create mechanics that does not allow you to zerg the kitten out of everything. And GW2 does not have these. That said, I think Anet is on a good way to change it when you look onto the upcomming patch. I hope that the changes in boss mechanics will be meaningful and that more will follow.

marnick.4305:

Trinity is like playing soccer. One player plays by different rules (can use hand) and therefor the entire team hinges around his ability to protect. If a goal comes through, it’s almost always the goalkeeper’s fault. Such unbalanced rules lead to problems like hooliganism, extremely stale gameplay (one goal in 90 minutes is enough) and an overall appeal to the masses. It does make soccer a popular sport but it sure isn’t the best.

Next, compare to cycling or basketball. Everyone plays by the same rules which actually forces proper teamplay. Once you get into the strategy of these sports, it’s crazy how deep the rabbit hole goes on a meta level. However this forces deep understanding of the game mechanics and a bit more active intelligence to enjoy the game properly. It also leads to active and compelling gameplay throughout the game.

Guild Wars 2 does have team play, but it’s not as obvious to the naked eye. The whack-a-mole healing in trinity gameplay is like the goalkeeper. He plays a different game entirely and frankly doesn’t matter in the actual game.

i think you completely underestimate soccer which is not 10 man trying 1 goal and a keeper trying to prevent it…
there are roles and rules that apply to everybody same as baseball… but better in my opinion.
that said is not that there isn’t team play in gw2, the fact is that most of the team play can be reduced to:
player with no aggro (class doesn’t matter) go ress downed player as soon as possible,
everybody dps, everybody try to keep up for himself. situational utility in case of projectiles or condition cleansing.
that’s it. survive as better as you can, dps and win

The problems with Holy trinity are :
1)3 existing roles are unequally fun to play(healers are in general less fun to play)
2)3 existing roles are unequally needed in groups(in wow it is 1:1:3 or 2:5:18)
{P.S.
3)3 existing roles are unequally self-sustainable in solo play with DPS beating everybody else.}
These reasons create unequal distribution of the playerbase and all consequent problems everybody dislike so much.
That is it. There is nothing wrong with roles in mmos per se, you just need to implement them right. Instead of this Arena.net screwed it up (with a goal to popularize GW2) and made PVE a big zergfest.
They could have made 4 equally needed and equally interesting roles, they could have made 5 or 6, instead of that they did 1. Good job.

Pointy.9308:

The trinity is a remnant of old times, as the technology and creativity goes forward the mechanics should change.

Technically, the trinity is a mainstreamed version of the classic pen and paper rpg system. Which is also more realistic, as a fighter or a mage wouldn’t have time to study both their main profession and healing. You don’t see many soldiers who are also doctors after all.

The trinity has to go for technical reasons, it’s not there because anyone lacks creativity or anything. It simply doesn’t work very well outside of its native format.

matemaster.2168:

trinity is this
LF tank for 1h (dungeon, PVP) players log off, disband group = no dungeon run
LF priest for 1h same as above
After month of this, the game enters an inevitable death

that’s why most of those games have queue systems, while we spam map chat or go to an outside website to search for group and we are not even searching for a specific roles.
there have been times were i logged off with no dungeon run because i couldn’t find a group in gw2 too.
and this is why they finally after a year realized we need a lfg system, and i hope it will be an autoqueue

also i wouldn’t call the healers healbots, i always played an healer or a magic caster dps in other games and the diference usually was that the magic caster dps i could just stand there spamming my rotations of skills to the boss not worrying about anything with maybe some kiting.
the healer role was far more stressfull, i had to pay attention who i had to heal, kite mobs because nobody cares to keep the healer alive or safe, be blamed if you die because the tanker never cared about you, and be blamed if anybody else died. be the first to be attacked in every pvp situation (with nobody usually defending you but asking for heals usually out of range). overall i liked to be the healer a lot more than i like to be the mesmer (or anything else for that matters). oh and from an healer perspective i never had to wait for a dungeon run, i was begged for a dungeon run, here i can be even muted in map chat when i try to form a group

Another thing regarding the trinity:

As healer, I felt wonderful when I had a tank and some DPS. I was invincible, no one got to me, and things died.

When I didn’t have a tank and some DPS, I felt useless. I couldn’t survive, I couldn’t kill anything.

While feeling useful is nice, I’d much rather avoid feeling useless.

Sylentir.8913:

Another thing regarding the trinity:

As healer, I felt wonderful when I had a tank and some DPS. I was invincible, no one got to me, and things died.

When I didn’t have a tank and some DPS, I felt useless. I couldn’t survive, I couldn’t kill anything.

While feeling useful is nice, I’d much rather avoid feeling useless.

That is the problem with specific WoW’s implementation of roles. Arenanet could have implemented roles without letting them being useless in solo play.

Feralwolf.7091:

I miss the Trinity. It made GW1 more fun. This game makes every class feel the same. Boring. OP suggested a system that allowed you to create a character that could switch roles. That’s exactly what FFXIV is doing now, and the approach GW2 should’ve taken. GW1 was approaching that idea by allowing you to switch secondaries but fell short somewhat.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have the trinity, because you didn’t need a tank..at least not in PvE anyway.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have the trinity, because you didn’t need a tank..at least not in PvE anyway.

Proper Tanks couldn’t exist in GW1 after they changed the aggro mechanics to have enemies run around like headless chickens trying to get at the casters (aggro priority was set to those wielding caster weapons, lower health, and (when health’s roughly even) lower armor or movement speed). It worked every bit as badly as you’d expect. Made Warriors next to useless, too, in combination with the obliteration of the Tactics (defense, control, and support) line’s effectiveness. [over 3000 hours of GW1 play, BTW, with around 1300 of them being on my Warrior main, not that anyone cares :P]

Aside from world bosses and the occasional Living Story content, I’m not sure what PvE zerg we’re talking about here. I know I didn’t zerg through all GW2 content, in fact, most would argue that PvE in GW2 is characteristically lonely as the mid-level zones only have a smattering of people here and there.

Zergs are exactly where you would expect them to be and nowhere else. (Around champions, world bosses, and in WvW) Everywhere else is normal.

AntiGw.9367:

Pointy.9308:

The trinity is a remnant of old times, as the technology and creativity goes forward the mechanics should change.

Technically, the trinity is a mainstreamed version of the classic pen and paper rpg system. Which is also more realistic, as a fighter or a mage wouldn’t have time to study both their main profession and healing. You don’t see many soldiers who are also doctors after all.

The trinity has to go for technical reasons, it’s not there because anyone lacks creativity or anything. It simply doesn’t work very well outside of its native format.

What I ment and what I think is that we see more and more creativity in the World and mainly thanks to advancements in technology and overal better quality of life. Thanks to technology we are able to create more things and though there are limits for recreating these in real life, when it comes to computers and what we can generate/simulate with it is incredible. There are no limitation to our imagination and creativity we can express through computers. Movies, games, arts etc. are not necesarily better than before but it certainly helps to have more options. I didn’t say anything about lack of creativity. On the contrary, the trinity system had to be created and it worked for a long time, kudos to that. And if anything than I agree with you. Holy trinity needs to be replaced with something more modern, up to date.

True, I do not see many soldiers that are doctors at the same time but that is partially also because they do not want to be doctors, basic understanding what is healing is enough for them. Which is quiet a shame because it would help them be more versatile. That works for mages as well. They could learn a bit more than just basics and it would not consume that much of their time either. The simple knowledge is enough, they wouldn´t have to be perfect in it, just be able to at least partially substitute a healer in case it is needed.

Vayne.8563:

Feralwolf.7091:

I miss the Trinity. It made GW1 more fun. This game makes every class feel the same. Boring. OP suggested a system that allowed you to create a character that could switch roles. That’s exactly what FFXIV is doing now, and the approach GW2 should’ve taken. GW1 was approaching that idea by allowing you to switch secondaries but fell short somewhat.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have the trinity, because you didn’t need a tank..at least not in PvE anyway.

You and I played a whole different GW1 then. All of the elite areas used tanks. They just didn’t use healers. Sometimes a bonder (DoA), but hardly any healing was used, because GW1 end game existed of tank-ball-spank, and abusing AI aggro mechanics.

Goorman.7916:

The problems with Holy trinity are :
1)3 existing roles are unequally fun to play(healers are in general less fun to play)

I would literally sacrifice my life a billion times to be a healer or prot in this game GW1 style. I loved being a healer and spent 95% of my ingame time soing so. It takes a special type of player to enjoy healing others.

One has to accept that if your group dies, it is always the healer’s fault; However, when the group succeeds, the DD were the ones to honor
As for myself would love to see EVERY class being able to fulfill EVERY roll.
How to do it
- Since Anet already implemented traits that allows players to specc into a certain direction, all they have to do is improving all traits by 200-400% effectiveness. Burning enemies don’t get 10% more dmg, but 50% abd so on.
- Twerk skills a bit so single players can be targeted.
- Every player can alternate 2 boons or conditions to boost their effec by let’s say 300%.

It is not missed by me. If I did miss it I know exactly where to find games that have it.
If I was in a game that had trinity and wanted a new game that had a trinity system if looked at GW2 I would know right away that the trinity is not present in the usual sense and would not buy it.

In WoW, i felt like i worked with 4 other people to complete instances and teamwork is required.

In gw2, i feel like i work next to 4 other people to complete instances and teamwork is optional.

“LF Monk for UW/FoW”
“Need monk for story mission”

(15mins later or less)
Stupid Monk
Crap healer
Lrn 2play Monk noob
OMG hEAlz me!
Wheres the prot!!!!!!!!!!

^This repeated 50 times a minute, is precisely why we do no have trinities anymore in GW. The amount of begging for and then subsequent complaining at monk players was frankly frustrating for those who were not monks, and down right sickening for those that were. So so glad that the need for monks is dead in GW2.

Trinity is boring, and shoehorns you in to one and only one role. Im glad its gone.

Bright.9160:

Vayne.8563:

Feralwolf.7091:

I miss the Trinity. It made GW1 more fun. This game makes every class feel the same. Boring. OP suggested a system that allowed you to create a character that could switch roles. That’s exactly what FFXIV is doing now, and the approach GW2 should’ve taken. GW1 was approaching that idea by allowing you to switch secondaries but fell short somewhat.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have the trinity, because you didn’t need a tank..at least not in PvE anyway.

You and I played a whole different GW1 then. All of the elite areas used tanks. They just didn’t use healers. Sometimes a bonder (DoA), but hardly any healing was used, because GW1 end game existed of tank-ball-spank, and abusing AI aggro mechanics.

I have no idea why you think you’d need a tank in Guild Wars 1. None-whatsoever. With an imbagon paragon absolving about 90% of an entire team’s damage, virtually permanently, a tank wasn’t really all that necessary.

Surely you’ve seen the sabway build which was pretty much all necros.

My hero team when I soloed used whatever character I was playing, a necro, 2 rits, 1 monk, 1 ranger (for interupts), 1 mesmer and then either an ele or a second necro for the last slot. No warrior, no heavy armor profession at all.

I don’t think the trinity is missed, instead I think what is missed about it is what epic fights it would accomplish, and the coordination that would come with it. (Raids)
Personally, I’m against raids, simply because they take too kitten long, they promote elitism, and really aren’t needed. What needs to happen is improving boss mechanics. Perhaps adding multiple phases to a boss that only has one, adding more spells to a boss, adding mobs/adds that can’t be killed but can be disabled for 20 seconds if you throw a bolder at them… Bosses need to become more interesting.

Simply adding in objectives that are required to beat a boss would improve the encounters massively. ATM its simply DPS/Evade for nigh on everything in the game.

A minor example of what I mean is the dredge fractal, which actually requires some teamwork to progress. Though this fractal is on the long side, it does provide some obvious intentions and ideas that Anet have to make encounters a little more interesting.

It could be translated to WB encounters easily;
An example would be Jormag, where instead of simply bashing the icewall PLAYERS (in place of the AI) are required to mount the cannons to bring it down and keep a path open for others to enter and fight Jormag. Those on the cannons get equal sharing of loots from participation. Further in the golem bomb phase, remove the golems entirely. Make it hazmat suits that players are required to use to carry bombs, and other players have to guard you, all the while another team “heats” a path on the ice to remove frozen ground debuff using charzooka fire.

Bloody simple, requires teamwork and a far far more interesting encounter.

I do not miss it. Was random group tanking an easy dungeon (the ramparts) and a dps typed into chat that his mom was being a pain and hassling him to clean his room. So I typed /sit and stated that I was not moving for the next fifteen minutes so that he could clean his room. I went and read a book for a while. When I came back there were a couple wtk’s in chat but everyone was still there. We continued on and not a word was said. Did he clean his room? Idk.

Gw1 PvE (HM) didn’t needed tanks, if you were running normal teams in normal content.

Speeclears (especially for DG/elite areas), which is what Bright is referring to, were a totally different beast – if you think that on Gw2 Speedrunning is bad/lame/exploitation don’t step in Gw1, lol – quite unique actually, which would be quite too long to explain here: fact is that the rules of “normal” PvE do not refer to those.

Leaving SC aside (cause they are not “intended” in the balancing of the game, afterall), Gw1 was a bit more “locked” than Gw2 (well, there are very few games less “locked” than Gw2…), but much less than the average trinity MMO (like, uh…WoW and the clones. ok i said it.).

In a party of 8, HM content, after you’ve built up the backline of heal+prot (2 slot usually), the other 6 are pretty much free. There is a healing class/spec, but no tanks or taunt. Add on top of that builds swappable on the fly in outposts, double class system, and a much more free skillbar (8 skills as you like, 1 elite maximum and belonging to the 2 profs you picked up), and there you go.

I wouldn’t mind a similar system to come back. Trinity is bad. I hate it.
But Gw1 “soft” one was the balance between a trinity (healing is the only “locked” role), allowing to have some deeper mechanics, and a free for all approach, which do takes away the issues of grouping but flattens the combat as whole.

Long short story: i don’t play games with Trinity, i deeply hate it. BUT, Gw2 solution “Everybody glass cannon DPS” makes combat and encounter extremely swallow, flat, and overall lacking of depth. Maybe is just matter of better balancing the professions, the istances, the game as whole: but in one year the only somewhat interesting fight for me has been Lupicus, until you start meeleing him flattening it too. Not that good, 1 boss in the whole game.

Vayne.8563:

Bright.9160:

Vayne.8563:

Feralwolf.7091:

I miss the Trinity. It made GW1 more fun. This game makes every class feel the same. Boring. OP suggested a system that allowed you to create a character that could switch roles. That’s exactly what FFXIV is doing now, and the approach GW2 should’ve taken. GW1 was approaching that idea by allowing you to switch secondaries but fell short somewhat.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have the trinity, because you didn’t need a tank..at least not in PvE anyway.

You and I played a whole different GW1 then. All of the elite areas used tanks. They just didn’t use healers. Sometimes a bonder (DoA), but hardly any healing was used, because GW1 end game existed of tank-ball-spank, and abusing AI aggro mechanics.

I have no idea why you think you’d need a tank in Guild Wars 1. None-whatsoever. With an imbagon paragon absolving about 90% of an entire team’s damage, virtually permanently, a tank wasn’t really all that necessary.

Surely you’ve seen the sabway build which was pretty much all necros.

My hero team when I soloed used whatever character I was playing, a necro, 2 rits, 1 monk, 1 ranger (for interupts), 1 mesmer and then either an ele or a second necro for the last slot. No warrior, no heavy armor profession at all.

…

Then your imbagon was the tank. Or that team of necro’s were all three at the same time, seems like a highly specialized niche build /shrug. If you have enough heals and damage soaking/applying going around that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not using the trinity, it just means you’re doing it in an un-traditional way.

That’s nice you had a team which didn’t really require a tank, but it’s disingenuous to say that was the norm in GW1, especially when we are really talking about group play, and not custom-made hero teams.

Vayne.8563:

Bright.9160:

Vayne.8563:

Feralwolf.7091:

I miss the Trinity. It made GW1 more fun. This game makes every class feel the same. Boring. OP suggested a system that allowed you to create a character that could switch roles. That’s exactly what FFXIV is doing now, and the approach GW2 should’ve taken. GW1 was approaching that idea by allowing you to switch secondaries but fell short somewhat.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have the trinity, because you didn’t need a tank..at least not in PvE anyway.

You and I played a whole different GW1 then. All of the elite areas used tanks. They just didn’t use healers. Sometimes a bonder (DoA), but hardly any healing was used, because GW1 end game existed of tank-ball-spank, and abusing AI aggro mechanics.

I have no idea why you think you’d need a tank in Guild Wars 1. None-whatsoever. With an imbagon paragon absolving about 90% of an entire team’s damage, virtually permanently, a tank wasn’t really all that necessary.

Surely you’ve seen the sabway build which was pretty much all necros.

My hero team when I soloed used whatever character I was playing, a necro, 2 rits, 1 monk, 1 ranger (for interupts), 1 mesmer and then either an ele or a second necro for the last slot. No warrior, no heavy armor profession at all.

In general PvE, no. But general PvE in GW1 is like open world in GW2 and doesn’t really count, because it’s faceroll-easy anyway.

Not to mention that sabway was utter tripe and there were infinitely better hero builds available. Even when you could only take 3 heroes.

When it came to DoA, UW, FoW, Deep and Urgoz, all the speedclears used tank and spank methods. I spoke too soon when I said there were no healers though, because I forgot about UA’s for some weird reason. GW1 speedclears however, all used tank and spank methods.

And no, Glaiveway DoA was not a speedclear, because a run took 3 times longer in NM than a proper speedclear in HM, and yielded half the rewards.

I am aware that clearing DoA, UW, FoW, Deep and Urgoz was perfectly possible without a tank. But the times for doing so varied quite greatly. I’ll sum up times needed for a clear without a tank (balanced way if you will) and with tanks respectively.

DoA: 1-3h (NM) vs 25-35mins (HM)

UW: 1-2h (NM) vs 20-30mins (HM)

FoW: 30min-1h (HM) vs 7-10mins (HM)

Deep: 1-2h (NM or HM) vs 6-8 mins (HM)

Urgoz: 1-2h (NM or HM) vs 6-8 mins (HM)

Tanks weren’t needed per se, but not having them in elite PvE content would either ruin your day, or greatly slow you down.

Can you not trait/skill/rune/sigil as DPS? Or trait/skill/rune/sigil as Tank? Or trait/skill/rune/sigil as Healer? There’s your Trinity. You and your team mates choose whatever your want you team to be. All DPS, yes. All Tanks, go head. All healers, sure! Mix and match to have a trinity, yep. You can argue that the healers can’t heal that well, but that is upto Anet to fix. The mechanics are in place.

I think ANet did good job to add that flexibly. Any class can be what ever, ever whenever.

Bright.9160:

Vayne.8563:

Feralwolf.7091:

I miss the Trinity. It made GW1 more fun. This game makes every class feel the same. Boring. OP suggested a system that allowed you to create a character that could switch roles. That’s exactly what FFXIV is doing now, and the approach GW2 should’ve taken. GW1 was approaching that idea by allowing you to switch secondaries but fell short somewhat.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have the trinity, because you didn’t need a tank..at least not in PvE anyway.

You and I played a whole different GW1 then. All of the elite areas used tanks. They just didn’t use healers. Sometimes a bonder (DoA), but hardly any healing was used, because GW1 end game existed of tank-ball-spank, and abusing AI aggro mechanics.

All of the (popular) speed clears used at least 1 healer: UW used an ele/mo, fow many way used an aura mo, doa generally uses 2 healers…although not necessarily monks. Just to name a few.

However, from my play, outside of UW (and even this is touch and go if you do it right), you only truly needed tanks if running a full balance team and going with pugs. I played all of hard mode without tanks. I’ve done doa and fow HM without tanks. Without issue. Running balanced teams, non-gimmicks. 2 people… 6 heroes. (Heroes made really sucky tanks anyway)

To me, healers yes…tanks nope.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

All of the (popular) speed clears used at least 1 healer: UW used an ele/mo, fow many way used an aura mo, doa generally uses 2 healers…although not necessarily monks. Just to name a few.

Technically, E/Mo was a Bonder, so more under the “protting” category.
FoW needed a UA for main team “oh kitten” moments BUT only pugs/casual runs used Monks, because safer – iirc record/speed runs incorporated the UA elite res in another char of the main team, and a clean/competent team hardly needed it anyway.

Doa backline was E/mo (bonder) and Monk Seeder. The monk wasn’t exactely a healer – it was manly due to being the only prof able to use effectively Seed of Life pve skill, which paired with the Life Bond E/Mo was…OP as kitten (like, every member of party get healed for x dmg taken by target, which was E/Mo, which was sharing the dmg – 0 but still triggering Seed – taken by tank, which ws getting hit by 30 mobs or so per second.). So, more a gimmick that a real Healer.

I might being forgetting/confusing something, it’s more than 1 year off Gw1 afterall.

But as i said previously, from the Gw1 experience:

To me, healers yes…tanks nope.

+1

AndrewSX.3794:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

All of the (popular) speed clears used at least 1 healer: UW used an ele/mo, fow many way used an aura mo, doa generally uses 2 healers…although not necessarily monks. Just to name a few.

Technically, E/Mo was a Bonder, so more under the “protting” category.
FoW needed a UA for main team “oh kitten” moments BUT only pugs/casual runs used Monks, because safer – iirc record/speed runs incorporated the UA elite res in another char of the main team, and a clean/competent team hardly needed it anyway.

Doa backline was E/mo (bonder) and Monk Seeder. The monk wasn’t exactely a healer – it was manly due to being the only prof able to use effectively Seed of Life pve skill, which paired with the Life Bond E/Mo was…OP as kitten (like, every member of party get healed for x dmg taken by target, which was E/Mo, which was sharing the dmg – 0 but still triggering Seed – taken by tank, which ws getting hit by 30 mobs or so per second.). So, more a gimmick that a real Healer.

I might being forgetting/confusing something, it’s more than 1 year off Gw1 afterall.

But as i said previously, from the Gw1 experience:

To me, healers yes…tanks nope.

+1

I was lumping heals and bonds together, since generally even the bonders still had some means of healing. Even the old fow bonders had a signet or two to assist the heal monk. There is some type of “oh kitten” healing in place for speed clears. For e/mo they slotted infuse (the last time i ran it anyway), fow manly carries kiss and ps just in case a big heal is needed, but generally makes due with seed and vig spir (and heal party out the kitten). Ursan mainly just used seed and heal party too, but its still healing (although sometimes it was a toss up which idiot you threw it on). Hell, tears of dwayna on minion bombers is still technically healing. We had a lot more call for ‘healing’ (no matter what its form or gimmick) than tanking, was sort of my general point.

AntiGw.9367:

Pointy.9308:

The trinity is a remnant of old times, as the technology and creativity goes forward the mechanics should change.

Technically, the trinity is a mainstreamed version of the classic pen and paper rpg system. Which is also more realistic, as a fighter or a mage wouldn’t have time to study both their main profession and healing. You don’t see many soldiers who are also doctors after all.

The trinity has to go for technical reasons, it’s not there because anyone lacks creativity or anything. It simply doesn’t work very well outside of its native format.

Well, it’s a mainstreamed version of DnD. Not many other pen and paper RPG’s have the same, or even a similar setup unless they are specifically DnD clones.

Also, I’d argue that a mage has absolutely no reason why they couldn’t learn healing. It’s magic. The only reason that exists in DnD is that healing is a traditionally divine art and mages use arcane magic, which isn’t well suited to that kind of thing.

… This is semantics, of course.

Cilph.6758:

ahuba.6430:

Cilph.6758:

Huh? Trinity? But we only have warriors. I wish they added Mesmers from GW1 to this game.

pugger detected

Nah, I hate PUGs with a passion. I mainly play with the guild. Just fed up with the special treatment warriors seem to be getting.

no special treatment just warriors have always been naturally prominent in PvE always and I do mean always it won’t change however I do miss being a healer and like one post said earlier the holy crap no one died! makes you smile specially if it is a 1 healer team can be a strain no one prob knows about Lineage it was kinda lame imo now that I look back at it but it was fun and gw1 a 1 monk team for like 6 missions and they screamed when I said I had to go.

Edit: i’m talking a 1 heal team that didn’t stop for my mana recharge practice and skill management made all the difference there were some decent healers out there but they would scream rest I just told my teams go at your pace if we rushed through it I did too miss getting those close calls on people using that last bit o energy and after the fight with several of those on many of the party getting pm’s of gratitude had one guy trade me 60k gold for one mission once

oh then we got nightfail hello heroes player interaction declined so PLEASE DON’T ADD THEM TO GW2 i almost wanted to get on gw1 and say healer lfg for elite mission/random mission but no use people have heroes

TheJokester.4672:

oh then we got nightfail hello heroes player interaction declined so PLEASE DON’T ADD THEM TO GW2 i almost wanted to get on gw1 and say healer lfg for elite mission/random mission but no use people have heroes

Nah. Nightfall’s Heroes were added because of the decline of partying. Before Nightfall, it had already gotten to the point where people would only party in the relatively few areas Henchmen couldn’t handle.

A month or two after release I demoted GW2 to a dabble game. While it was not the only reason, not having more defined roles was certainly on the list. To me the dungeons have never played well and they have always lacked structure and control because of the lack of roles.

PVP (wvw) has also worked the same way. Everything resolves around the big dps zerg train. Heals are underwhelming and always have been. Tanking kinda works in pve but, has no place in WvW.

At the end of the day. I just enjoy having a real purpose in my groups. Thankfully, pretty much every game coming down the pipe and every game that came before caters to roles. So while I might not love GW2, I don’t see any reason to force the trinity back into this game. I’ll just play WOW or ESO or whatever else.

Holy Trinity missed? Not by me.

Honestly, I like being able to hop on my primarily-fire Elementalist, and then being able to hop into group events and do both damage and try to be a good supporter and heal with water. I like not being tied or required to do something in groups basically, but like being able to switch between different roles (of course where it’s viable; if people are dying all over the place in a group event, I’m not going to try tanking on an Elementalist :p I’ll likely drop damage, switch over to water, and get to healing).

I think of my Warrior as a… Warrior. I can deal damage, while also take it. I don’t classify myself as a Tank specifically, or Damage specifically, and I like it Same with my Guardian (I mean the class name itself implies Tank imo, but I’m mostly all-damage).

Being able to switch weapons (or magic) is the best part for role changing. I notice I’m taking way too much damage on my Guardian with a 2H sword? I just switch over to my other weapon set with a Sword + Shield.

In-short, combat and roles I feel are way more dynamic. Can’t say I really miss the Holy Trinity either, but to be fair, did it really go anywhere? Naturally, a Warrior is great at Damage, a Guardian at Tank, and Elementalist at Healing, and those are just 3 classes. Rangers are good at Damage too, as are Elementalists. A Warrior and Guardian can also reverse the roles I listed above.

You still have your Tanks, your Damage, and Healers, but you aren’t bound to be any-specific one.

I wouldn’t call anyone “good” at healing in this game.

Cole Eyre.8471:

Holy Trinity missed? Not by me.

Ditto.

As others have said, if you miss this type of game play, then GW2 probably isn’t for you.

Lack of trinity means I can join any group. Want it? Play something else. Why does everyone want to turn GW2 isnt a different game? Its one thing to want to fix something already in the game, but GW2’s appeal is its differences from other MMOs. Know why most MMOs fail? Cause they are too much the same as WoW. By not being WoW, GW2 stays successful.

People want trinity back because they don’t realise that support and control already exist in the game, but it’s not their concept of support, which is fall asleep and then occasionally wake up when HP bars fall low to heal.

Things like stealthing your team, putting up blocks, putting up reflects, stacking might and fury, putting up protection, pulling mobs together for group cleaving, chaining blinds on mobs and stacking vuln on bosses isn’t supporting your team apparently, but literally doing jack all and then doing a burst heal like in a trinity MMO is like … loads of support.

colesy.8490:

People want trinity back because they don’t realise that support and control already exist in the game, but it’s not their concept of support, which is fall asleep and then occasionally wake up when HP bars fall low to heal.

Things like stealthing your team, putting up blocks, putting up reflects, stacking might and fury, putting up protection, pulling mobs together for group cleaving, chaining blinds on mobs and stacking vuln on bosses isn’t supporting your team apparently, but literally doing jack all and then doing a burst heal like in a trinity MMO is like … loads of support.

I agree with your assessment, but the current problem is that since support isn’t limited to healing, it’s difficult to put a stat on it. As a result, there is no reason for support to wear DPS gear.

In my opinion, the boon duration and healing power stats need looked at. Both fail to deliver significant power to supporting characters. I personally enjoy running around in full cleric’s, but I think that the healing power scaling of most abilities could afford to be a good bit higher.

I personally think if you want to give your team mates burst heals, play WvW. Cleric gear is actually useful there, and blasting water fields will heal your whole team a few thousand when you’re regrouping for another push.

For PvE, you can support much better in full DPS gear.

Jnaathra.6549:

A month or two after release I demoted GW2 to a dabble game. While it was not the only reason, not having more defined roles was certainly on the list. To me the dungeons have never played well and they have always lacked structure and control because of the lack of roles.

PVP (wvw) has also worked the same way. Everything resolves around the big dps zerg train. Heals are underwhelming and always have been. Tanking kinda works in pve but, has no place in WvW.

At the end of the day. I just enjoy having a real purpose in my groups. Thankfully, pretty much every game coming down the pipe and every game that came before caters to roles. So while I might not love GW2, I don’t see any reason to force the trinity back into this game. I’ll just play WOW or ESO or whatever else.

Haha
You have no idea. Bunker (tanky) builds are the best builds for wvw atm. Every strong guild have people with bunker builds. Like Second Law and Red Guard.

Come play ffxiv.

/thread

AndrewSX.3794:

Gw1 PvE (HM) didn’t needed tanks, if you were running normal teams in normal content.

Speeclears (especially for DG/elite areas), which is what Bright is referring to, were a totally different beast – if you think that on Gw2 Speedrunning is bad/lame/exploitation don’t step in Gw1, lol – quite unique actually, which would be quite too long to explain here: fact is that the rules of “normal” PvE do not refer to those.

Leaving SC aside (cause they are not “intended” in the balancing of the game, afterall), Gw1 was a bit more “locked” than Gw2 (well, there are very few games less “locked” than Gw2…), but much less than the average trinity MMO (like, uh…WoW and the clones. ok i said it.).

In a party of 8, HM content, after you’ve built up the backline of heal+prot (2 slot usually), the other 6 are pretty much free. There is a healing class/spec, but no tanks or taunt. Add on top of that builds swappable on the fly in outposts, double class system, and a much more free skillbar (8 skills as you like, 1 elite maximum and belonging to the 2 profs you picked up), and there you go.

I wouldn’t mind a similar system to come back. Trinity is bad. I hate it.
But Gw1 “soft” one was the balance between a trinity (healing is the only “locked” role), allowing to have some deeper mechanics, and a free for all approach, which do takes away the issues of grouping but flattens the combat as whole.

Long short story: i don’t play games with Trinity, i deeply hate it. BUT, Gw2 solution “Everybody glass cannon DPS” makes combat and encounter extremely swallow, flat, and overall lacking of depth. Maybe is just matter of better balancing the professions, the istances, the game as whole: but in one year the only somewhat interesting fight for me has been Lupicus, until you start meeleing him flattening it too. Not that good, 1 boss in the whole game.

Oh yeah, I don’t speed run…and I suspect those that do make up a tiny percentage of the population.

Vayne.8563:

Oh yeah, I don’t speed run…and I suspect those that do make up a tiny percentage of the population.

Unfortunately, in the last few years of GW1, they had become almost as common as champion trains are here.

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Bright.9160:

Vayne.8563:

Feralwolf.7091:

I miss the Trinity. It made GW1 more fun. This game makes every class feel the same. Boring. OP suggested a system that allowed you to create a character that could switch roles. That’s exactly what FFXIV is doing now, and the approach GW2 should’ve taken. GW1 was approaching that idea by allowing you to switch secondaries but fell short somewhat.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have the trinity, because you didn’t need a tank..at least not in PvE anyway.

You and I played a whole different GW1 then. All of the elite areas used tanks. They just didn’t use healers. Sometimes a bonder (DoA), but hardly any healing was used, because GW1 end game existed of tank-ball-spank, and abusing AI aggro mechanics.

I have no idea why you think you’d need a tank in Guild Wars 1. None-whatsoever. With an imbagon paragon absolving about 90% of an entire team’s damage, virtually permanently, a tank wasn’t really all that necessary.

Surely you’ve seen the sabway build which was pretty much all necros.

My hero team when I soloed used whatever character I was playing, a necro, 2 rits, 1 monk, 1 ranger (for interupts), 1 mesmer and then either an ele or a second necro for the last slot. No warrior, no heavy armor profession at all.

…

Then your imbagon was the tank. Or that team of necro’s were all three at the same time, seems like a highly specialized niche build /shrug. If you have enough heals and damage soaking/applying going around that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not using the trinity, it just means you’re doing it in an un-traditional way.

That’s nice you had a team which didn’t really require a tank, but it’s disingenuous to say that was the norm in GW1, especially when we are really talking about group play, and not custom-made hero teams.

A tank, from traditional MMO terminology, is someone who grabs aggro and holds it. calling someone a tank that mitigates a parties damage, but doesn’t get attacked or aggro would probably throw a whole lot of people off. In other words, the word tank is used in many many games, and applying it to an imbagon is confusing.

It may serve the same purpose as a tank..but the only true tanking I saw in Guild Wars 1 was a permasin in FoW on the early shadow mobs, while an ele stood back and hit them with meteor showers. That was true tanking. Meteor showers were AOE spells that didn’t draw aggro. The permsin gathered the enemies up and kept them aggroed, while the DPS guy gunned them down…and that didn’t need a healer at all…because the permasin, if he was any good, could do that indefinitely.

If you think there are no specific roles in GW2 you have missed the point. Depending on what you play, there are VERY specific roles for certain classes/builds. I don’t miss the trinity and sure as hell hope it never comes back!!!