Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Evans.6347:

Of course it’s a fancy commercial. And when you are going to throw around concepts like ‘fun’ and ‘grind’, which are highly subjective, of course a bunch of people are going to be bumhurt.

I wish people would just let it be and focus on the here and now. What does this accomplish anyway? It’s been over a whole year and those who are still here, are still here regardless of the ‘lies’. So why keep on going on and on and on about this same old poor dead horse that has been beaten down to nothing more than decrepit horse pulp…

Eww gross.

It’s over a year since the game was released and the manifesto was released 2 years before that, so it’s three years old.

Some people just want to live in the past.

Perhaps because, for many of us, the past was better.

Spoilers, I suppose, if you’ve not played Guild Wars:

This is a good example of one of the things I loved most about Guild Wars – and one of the things I was certain would be carried over into the new game – the storytelling. Why wouldn’t I expect more of this from the company that, by Eye of the North, had gotten so good at it? But there’s nothing in the personal story or the living story in GW2 that even comes close.

In my opinion, of course. I’m sure there are many here who prefer GW2’s unmitigated geniuses to the asura as presented in EotN, as well as others who can discern no appreciable difference.

knives.6345:

Oh? People are still actively doing all those “dynamic” events? I heard most are just champ farming.

If you “heard” that, perhaps you should actually play the game? Go to Frostgorge – the majority of people in the zone are not doing the Champ farm. And even in Queensdale the numbers on the Champ farm are limited – the events still go on and are attended – I know, I levelled through there recently.

As there are no other zones with active Champ farms, we can conclude that about 1-5% of the game’s population are “just champ farming” as you put it. Those people are the same people who will mindlessly do whatever content they think is fastest, easiest, gain – so they are not a great group to cater to.

As the saying goes, “The Truth Never Lie”

Eurhetemec.9052:

knives.6345:

Oh? People are still actively doing all those “dynamic” events? I heard most are just champ farming.

If you “heard” that, perhaps you should actually play the game? Go to Frostgorge – the majority of people in the zone are not doing the Champ farm. And even in Queensdale the numbers on the Champ farm are limited – the events still go on and are attended – I know, I levelled through there recently.

As there are no other zones with active Champ farms, we can conclude that about 1-5% of the game’s population are “just champ farming” as you put it. Those people are the same people who will mindlessly do whatever content they think is fastest, easiest, gain – so they are not a great group to cater to.

Well, certainly not on my server/timezone.

Queensdale is heavily populated with champ farm almost any given time, probably except Monday/Sunday evening EST

Frostgorge is quite empty, and if it’s not, either Jormag is there or we have a huge champ train rolling.

I don’t want to do population percentage, since I don’t even have a raw data to begin with – but I don’t see anyone actively doing events – except if they are leveling a new toon.

knives.6345:

Sure they do. But if that will make profit go beyond the margin, they will change strategy – as with all other business out there.

Not everyone is so willing to throw artistic integrity aside in the quest for money. There’s a story I once heard (no clue if it’s actually true) about Guillermo del Toro pitching the idea of making a movie based on The Wind in the Willow, a childhood favorite of his. As the story goes, he met with studio executives and tells them his vision for what what he’d like the movie to be.

The executives – being experts in marketing and commercializing everything they touch – liked the idea, but thought the story was a bit antiquated. They asked if he’d be willing to “modernize” the story so that it would be better received – and thus more profitable – by today’s youth. They suggested things like making the Frog saying “hip” things, possibly rapping, and riding a skateboard. As the story goes, del Toro stood up, thanked them for their time, and walked out of the room. He’d rather not make the movie at all than something it was never supposed to be for the sake of “commercialization”.

Whether the story is actually true or not doesn’t matter. The point is too many people are too willing to give up what they dreamed of making in the name of money. Now I know it’s idealistic to say “artistic integrity matters more than commercialization” when it comes to the cooperate world, but just once I’d like to see someone actually fight that battle.

Now I’ll leave you all with a few lines from the great Tom Petty’s The Last DJ…

Well, you can’t turn him into a company man
You can’t turn him into a kitten
And the boys upstairs
Just don’t understand anymore

Well, the top brass don’t like him
Talking so much
And he won’t play what they say to play
And he don’t want to change
What don’t need to change

There goes the last DJ
Who plays what he wants to play
And says what he wants to say
Hey, hey, hey

Haven’t read anything. Posting anyway.

Please stop talking about the manifesto. It’s completely counter productive. It’s like saying to someone “I’m mad because you promised you wouldn’t steal my ice cream” Be mad because they stole your ice cream. Whether or not they promised not to is, at best, a periphery concern.

darkace.8925:

knives.6345:

Sure they do. But if that will make profit go beyond the margin, they will change strategy – as with all other business out there.

Not everyone is so willing to throw artistic integrity aside in the quest for money. There’s a story I once heard (no clue if it’s actually true) about Guillermo del Toro pitching the idea of making a movie based on The Wind in the Willow, a childhood favorite of his. As the story goes, he met with studio executives and tells them his vision for what what he’d like the movie to be.

The executives – being experts in marketing and commercializing everything they touch – liked the idea, but thought the story was a bit antiquated. They asked if he’d be willing to “modernize” the story so that it would be better received – and thus more profitable – by today’s youth. They suggested things like making the Frog saying “hip” things, possibly rapping, and riding a skateboard. As the story goes, del Toro stood up, thanked them for their time, and walked out of the room. He’d rather not make the movie at all than something it was never supposed to be for the sake of “commercialization”.

Whether the story is actually true or not doesn’t matter. The point is too many people are too willing to give up what they dreamed of making in the name of money. Now I know it’s idealistic to say “artistic integrity matters more than commercialization” when it comes to the cooperate world, but just once I’d like to see someone actually fight that battle.

Now I’ll leave you all with a few lines from the great Tom Petty’s The Last DJ…

Well, you can’t turn him into a company man
You can’t turn him into a kitten
And the boys upstairs
Just don’t understand anymore

Well, the top brass don’t like him
Talking so much
And he won’t play what they say to play
And he don’t want to change
What don’t need to change

There goes the last DJ
Who plays what he wants to play
And says what he wants to say
Hey, hey, hey

Great story and it might be true, with one problem. People aren’t companies.

So how much of his money did del Toro invest in that? Because it’s very very easy to stand up for your principles when there’s nothing actually on the line. He’s going to work whether he takes that role or not. He can AFFORD to be picky. Not everyone is in that boat.

Let’s take a look at Anet. They have two games. One of them is 8 years old and probably not a big cash cow. They have all their resources invested in this one high cost project. Five years of work, countless dollars, and this is their shot.

I don’t really see how your story can compare to this.

This isn’t selling out for a dollar. This is making a change for the betterment of your business and again…we don’t even know if the game would have been more successful if it went the other way. It could be dead by now, with half the staff laid off (which has clearly not happened).

darkace.8925:

knives.6345:

Sure they do. But if that will make profit go beyond the margin, they will change strategy – as with all other business out there.

Not everyone is so willing to throw artistic integrity aside in the quest for money. There’s a story I once heard (no clue if it’s actually true) about Guillermo del Toro pitching the idea of making a movie based on The Wind in the Willow, a childhood favorite of his. As the story goes, he met with studio executives and tells them his vision for what what he’d like the movie to be.

The executives – being experts in marketing and commercializing everything they touch – liked the idea, but thought the story was a bit antiquated. They asked if he’d be willing to “modernize” the story so that it would be better received – and thus more profitable – by today’s youth. They suggested things like making the Frog saying “hip” things, possibly rapping, and riding a skateboard. As the story goes, del Toro stood up, thanked them for their time, and walked out of the room. He’d rather not make the movie at all than something it was never supposed to be for the sake of “commercialization”.

Whether the story is actually true or not doesn’t matter. The point is too many people are too willing to give up what they dreamed of making in the name of money. Now I know it’s idealistic to say “artistic integrity matters more than commercialization” when it comes to the cooperate world, but just once I’d like to see someone actually fight that battle.

Now I’ll leave you all with a few lines from the great Tom Petty’s The Last DJ…

Well, you can’t turn him into a company man
You can’t turn him into a kitten
And the boys upstairs
Just don’t understand anymore

Well, the top brass don’t like him
Talking so much
And he won’t play what they say to play
And he don’t want to change
What don’t need to change

There goes the last DJ
Who plays what he wants to play
And says what he wants to say
Hey, hey, hey

But…

I don’t want to tell, but it’s such a poor comparison.

ANet was created to be a profit-generating organization, that needs to generate X amount in Y time.

ANet maintains servers, which is an expense.
ANet maintains a team of support personnel, which is an expense.
ANet maintains a team of developers, game designers, which is an expense.
ANet maintains a relationship with other companies to print logos, burn digital copies, ship discs – which is an expense.
ANet probably rents an office – which is an expense.
ANet maintains office supplies, probably food – though minimal, still an expense.
ANet pays taxes – which is an expense.

The person you mentioned – the common thing he has with ANet is probably he pays taxes and eats food.

Again, ANet is not a charity to cheer people up – they need to meet a certain profit.

knives.6345:

Again, ANet is not a charity to cheer people up – they need to meet a certain profit.

Does anyone really believe they wouldn’t have been profitable with the game they set out to make? The game they wanted to make, in my opinion, was ten times what Guild Wars was. And if Guild Wars was profitable enough to get the go-ahead on a sequel, then I can’t imagine the difference between sticking with their vision and changing it being so great that it meant the difference between profitable enough and not.

And a question I don’t imagine too many people asked themselves is “are the people for whom they changed the game in it for the long-haul either way?” I won’t pretend to know that answer, but I’ll be watching to see what server activity looks like when some of the upcoming AAA MMOs hit the market next year.

knives.6345:

ANet maintains servers, which is an expense.

Server maintenance is cheap, even City of Heroes managed to turn a profit server costs nonetheless and it was a forsaken graveyard on an island in the pacific, in terms of population.

knives.6345:

ANet maintains a team of support personnel, which is an expense.

Well tell that support personnel to start supporting EU / NA teaming for instances instead of staring at yet another ‘Network Error’.

knives.6345:

ANet maintains a team of developers, game designers, which is an expense.

They do? Seeing how long things go unfixed, or what their fixes look like (remember the Ranger shortbow animation thing? Yeah) one should question if there is a team at all and if there is who the “kitten” is in it.

knives.6345:

ANet maintains a relationship with other companies to print logos, burn digital copies, ship discs – which is an expense.

I hope you know that burning a disc costs pennies, not to mention most sales were digital as is to be expected in our day and age. As for the logo printing, are you even serious? Or are you telling me it was an absolute necessity they create those merchandise T-shirts that one save the devs ever wears and keyboards that nobody ever uses? And that this apparently necessary expense cost them an arm and a leg?

knives.6345:

ANet probably rents an office – which is an expense.

As opposed to what? Bums? Every person pays for a roof above their heads.

knives.6345:

ANet maintains office supplies, probably food – though minimal, still an expense.

Ah, food for Izzy. Now I finally know where the money went to.

knives.6345:

ANet pays taxes – which is an expense.

You make it sound like they’re the only people in the world paying taxes.

knives.6345:

Again, ANet is not a charity to cheer people up – they need to meet a certain profit.

Guild Wars 1 made enough profit to warrant 2 extra games and an expansion AND it was of a quality better than GW2 can even dream of coming close to.
So being a “charity to cheer people up” – as you so weirdly define a company that puts effort into their product – and turning a profit are not mutually exclusive.

Vayne.8563:

Let’s take a look at Anet. They have two games. One of them is 8 years old and probably not a big cash cow. They have all their resources invested in this one high cost project. Five years of work, countless dollars, and this is their shot.

I don’t really see how your story can compare to this.

This isn’t selling out for a dollar. This is making a change for the betterment of your business and again…we don’t even know if the game would have been more successful if it went the other way. It could be dead by now, with half the staff laid off (which has clearly not happened).

Hi. I’m sorry to barge in the middle of this but I find myself asking a few things while reading these posts ( i do read em quite a bit but usually dont care to partake in it ) and was hoping for further clarification on this.

1. Did GW1 really didn’t make enough money? I was under the impression it did rather well. I played and enjoyed the Beta, but since i wasnt yet employed at the time, didnt buy the game, and wasnt deeply into MMOs)

2. And if so, is it true Anet might ..like… totally lose it, if they don’t get enough from GW2? (though I do read it sold quite well, Im hoping to know how else it can be in such dire straits?). Or is this speculative?

Thank you.

generalraccoon.3857:

Vayne.8563:

Let’s take a look at Anet. They have two games. One of them is 8 years old and probably not a big cash cow. They have all their resources invested in this one high cost project. Five years of work, countless dollars, and this is their shot.

I don’t really see how your story can compare to this.

This isn’t selling out for a dollar. This is making a change for the betterment of your business and again…we don’t even know if the game would have been more successful if it went the other way. It could be dead by now, with half the staff laid off (which has clearly not happened).

Hi. I’m sorry to barge in the middle of this but I find myself asking a few things while reading these posts ( i do read em quite a bit but usually dont care to partake in it ) and was hoping for further clarification on this.

1. Did GW1 really didn’t make enough money? I was under the impression it did rather well. I played and enjoyed the Beta, but since i wasnt yet employed at the time, didnt buy the game, and wasnt deeply into MMOs)

2. And if so, is it true Anet might ..like… totally lose it, if they don’t get enough from GW2? (though I do read it sold quite well, Im hoping to know how else it can be in such dire straits?). Or is this speculative?

Thank you.

Guild Wars 1 definitely did well. But it didn’t do well in the sense of a game like WoW…it did well in the sense of a game that wasn’t WoW. They sold 7 million copies over 8 years. It’s pretty kitten good. But it’s also more niche. It didn’t reach or hold as many people over the course of time. It certainly had a following though. Those are the people who are the most hurt over the change in this games direction.

However, the staff of Guild Wars 1 was 50 and the staff of Guild Wars 2 is 300. It’s a much bigger staff and a much more ambitious project. The money Guild Wars 1 made wouldn’t come close to supporting what Anet wants to do with Guild Wars 2. So they have to appeal to a wider variety of players…become less niche OR appeal to many niches.

The problem is, Anet has no other games besides Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2…and Guild Wars 1 is no longer being updated and it is no longer pulling in money for them. They’ve put all their eggs into this basket. They paid a dev team for five years to make this game, they moved to bigger headquarters, they’re STILL hiring more staff.

So yeah. This is make or break for Anet.

generalraccoon.3857:

Vayne.8563:

Let’s take a look at Anet. They have two games. One of them is 8 years old and probably not a big cash cow. They have all their resources invested in this one high cost project. Five years of work, countless dollars, and this is their shot.

I don’t really see how your story can compare to this.

This isn’t selling out for a dollar. This is making a change for the betterment of your business and again…we don’t even know if the game would have been more successful if it went the other way. It could be dead by now, with half the staff laid off (which has clearly not happened).

Hi. I’m sorry to barge in the middle of this but I find myself asking a few things while reading these posts ( i do read em quite a bit but usually dont care to partake in it ) and was hoping for further clarification on this.

1. Did GW1 really didn’t make enough money? I was under the impression it did rather well. I played and enjoyed the Beta, but since i wasnt yet employed at the time, didnt buy the game, and wasnt deeply into MMOs)

2. And if so, is it true Anet might ..like… totally lose it, if they don’t get enough from GW2? (though I do read it sold quite well, Im hoping to know how else it can be in such dire straits?). Or is this speculative?

Thank you.

Anet said GW1 could “potentially last forever” as server maintenance costs are extremely low and it has an ‘automated update’ system meaning you get different week bonuses and different daily Zaishen Quests.
But in reality you should ask NCSoft, when they say ‘basta’ it’s going to be ‘basta’ allright, Anet promise or not.

Ahh I see. Thanks for the clarifications, Vayne and Pariah.

emikochan.8504:

Calae.1738:

I understand that fun is subjective. However, if chopping trees, whacking rocks and clicking trading post spreadsheets is their idea of fun then they’re going to feel a massive sting in spring 2014.

Jumping puzzles, world bosses, champs and dungeons are my idea of fun, and you need to do those to get ascended weapons too :p

I know you need to do them but; I’ve already done them several months ago and don’t like being forced to eat recycled food.

I don’t think there’s any question that GW2 has already been successful, and has continued its success long after box sales slowed down. It’s not pulling in the money WoW probably did at the height of its popularity — but I doubt we’ll ever see that kind of success from an MMO ever again. Once GW2 launches in Asia, the game will continue to be a success. The game design updates currently being developed seem as if they mirror many of the Asian-developed games very closely. It’s possible that the game will be a bigger hit over there than it is here, and that ANet could thrive on that revenue even if they lose revenue in the West when other MMO’s launch next year.

I also don’t know why they deviated from their old mission statements, but by all accounts they seem to be doing OK as a result. The manifesto was a sales pitch, pure and simple. Their sales pitches, plus their rep from GW, are the reasons I bought the product in the first place. If I leave today, I believe I got my money’s worth. None of that means I will ever trust their official statements about policy issues going forward, but that is not anything that matters to anyone but me, in all likelihood.

So yes, by all means, let’s stop discussing the abandonment of some of the manifesto, and let’s stop discussing Descended Gear. So, who’s going to win the Premiere League and the World Series?

IndigoSundown.5419:

So, who’s going to win the Premiere League and the World Series?

Who cares? The NFL regular season is in full swing. :P

Nightarch.2943:

The only thing that ArenaNet is innovative about is the time-gating system, they brought it up to a whole new level of absurdity. The manifesto is rubbish, and so are the developers and their crap filled living story. And if this game was so fine, and perfect the way it is, a thread like this wouldn’t exist. Threads about build variety and time gate content wouldn’t exist if this were truly a perfect game, threads like any of these wouldn’t exist. I say Good Day Sir!

Threads like this exist because it’s impossible to please everyone. They could make the most perfect game ever as far as you’re concerned and the next person in line would absolutely hate it.

Lets also take into consideration that there are far far more people playing the game and are happy with it than are posting in threads like this on the forum.

They held to the manifesto 99% for me.
The gear treadmill change was not wanted from Anet but widely and aggressively demanded by players.

You guys pretend it didnt happen and blame Anet, but I was there and clearly remember how it went.
I was there in the minority trying to obstruct the massive wave of people demanding for an endgame treadmill.

The original game launched in August was pretty much what was advertised, and they entrenched for 2 months bombarded by demands of treadmills until they finally gave up to your crying.

So no, I dont blame Anet for this, I blame you.

Red Falcon.8257:

The original game launched in August was pretty much what was advertised,

Persistent world – nope

fully branching personalized storyline – nope

event system to get people playing together – nope, zerging isn’t playing together, it’s people doing their own thing who just happened to have the same target

‘When you look at the art in our game, you say “Wow that’s visually stunning, I’ve never seen anything like that before.” And then when you play the combat in our game, you say “Wow that’s incredible, I’ve never seen anything like that.
In most games you go out, and you have really fun tasks occasionally to do. And the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again.’ – This contradicts itself really seeing how the game turned out
In the game world these horrible centaurs are standing around in a field and you get a quest step that says “Go kill ten centaurs”. We don’t think that’s OK. – Apparently, you do.

We don’t want to make the same MMO that everyone else is building – Haha, oh wow
in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world, it’s your story, you affect things around you in a very permanent way. ’ – It feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this

You’re meeting new people, whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, then remember you – Unless I turn my back and the event comes rolling around again within 10 seconds. Dear fishermen of Viathan Lake, I think you should just relocate..

Ad I only pulled out the easy ones.

Nightarch.2943:

Spoiler!
~~~ArenaNet lied!~~~

The Art people didn’t lie, they were 100% honest to the manifesto, the rest how ever……

Mike O’brien said:If you love MMO’s, you’ll want to check out Guild Wars 2, and if you hate MMO’s you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2.

Pardon me Mr O’brien, but I think what you meant to say was:

If you love MMO’s you’ll really want to check out GW2, and if you hate MMO’s you’ll really really want to stay the hell as far away from GW2 as possible.

Yeah, that was a line I kinda rolled my eyes at even at the time. I mean, it’s a nice ideal… but people who hate MMOs weren’t going to be buying an MMO, much less Guild Wars 2. Those people were never going to give the game a chance because THEY HATE MMOs!

It’d be like trying to sell real estate in Florida to people who hated beaches.

Pariah.8506:

Persistent world – nope

[/quote]

Stopped after reading this, figured the rest must have been dead wrong as well. The game is in fact has a persistent world, and has been like that since day 1. Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistant world, because when you were questing, it was just you and your team that was in the world, it was instanced created just for you and your team, where as with Guild Wars 2 there are no instances just for you and your team, instead it has a persistent world where everyone plays in.

chemiclord.3978:

Yeah, that was a line I kinda rolled my eyes at even at the time. I mean, it’s a nice ideal… but people who hate MMOs weren’t going to be buying an MMO, much less Guild Wars 2. Those people were never going to give the game a chance because THEY HATE MMOs!

It’d be like trying to sell real estate in Florida to people who moved out of Florida.

Half of my family and friends hated MMOs, but love Guild Wars 2. I quit playing MMOs about 6 years ago because I can’t stand how MMOs are, but GW2 broke that mold and actually brought me back into playing an MMO.

So yeah, it is all subjective, you might disagree with with that quote, but I am saying that the quote was 100% correct in my experience.

eisberg.2379:

Pariah.8506:

Persistent world – nope

Stopped after reading this, figured the rest must have been dead wrong as well. The game is in fact has a persistent world, and has been like that since day 1. Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistant world, because when you were questing, it was just you and your team that was in the world, it was instanced created just for you and your team, where as with Guild Wars 2 there are no instances just for you and your team, instead it has a persistent world where everyone plays in.
[/quote]
There are many instances in GW2.

Im Mudbone.1437:

eisberg.2379:

Pariah.8506:

Persistent world – nope

Stopped after reading this, figured the rest must have been dead wrong as well. The game is in fact has a persistent world, and has been like that since day 1. Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistant world, because when you were questing, it was just you and your team that was in the world, it was instanced created just for you and your team, where as with Guild Wars 2 there are no instances just for you and your team, instead it has a persistent world where everyone plays in.

There are many instances in GW2.
[/quote]

ok, and? Has a persistent world, and has had one since day 1.

Vayne.8563:

Anet saw people ignoring events, and they saw people complaining about the personal story and they came up with something else.

Instead of actually fixing those aspects they decided to take the cowards way out.

I don’t know. I never look at anything as set in stone. There are a lot of absolutes being thrown around in here as if Colin Johanson went up on to Mt. Zion and carved the manifesto out of stone. It’s obvious that Ree was talking about the personal story and Colin about events and people are using one thing that one of them said for the other thing.

I choose to look at the things they are doing that I like. This game has come out with a lot of content. A lot of it I like and there is some of it I don’t like, but I feel there is enough there for me to do with my friends that I can just ignore the stuff I don’t like and I still have a ton to do. When I get bored I play another game.

At some point, you have to decide: Is this game for me? If you feel like ArenaNet lied to you, what are you still doing here talking about it ad nauseum? If I felt like a game company lied to me I would leave. There was a game that promised their Epic story would NEVER cost any f2p’ers money. It’s going to now. Am I ever gonna play that game again? Nope. That was a cut and dried thing. Nothing in the manifesto seems so absolute though. I think we need to move on from this. At some point the dead horse just needs to decay or get buried, but you stop beating it because it can’t die anymore than it has already.

eisberg.2379:

ok, and? Has a persistent world, and has had one since day 1.

Gw1 had persistent great temple of balthazar.

haviz.1340:

eisberg.2379:

ok, and? Has a persistent world, and has had one since day 1.

Gw1 had persistent great temple of balthazar.

That was considered as a Port http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Port. Ports, towns, outposts, were the only things that would be persistent, but it was basically a graphical version of a lobby. Persistent world has a very specific meaning in MMOs, Guild Wars 2 has it, Guild Wars 1 does not.

eisberg.2379:

Im Mudbone.1437:

eisberg.2379:

Pariah.8506:

Persistent world – nope

Stopped after reading this, figured the rest must have been dead wrong as well. The game is in fact has a persistent world, and has been like that since day 1. Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistant world, because when you were questing, it was just you and your team that was in the world, it was instanced created just for you and your team, where as with Guild Wars 2 there are no instances just for you and your team, instead it has a persistent world where everyone plays in.

There are many instances in GW2.

ok, and? Has a persistent world, and has had one since day 1.[/quote]

I only posted this because you said and I quote “where as with Guild Wars 2 there are no instances just for you and your team, instead it has a persistent world where everyone plays in.”

Pariah.8506:

Red Falcon.8257:

The original game launched in August was pretty much what was advertised,

Persistent world – nope

fully branching personalized storyline – nope

event system to get people playing together – nope, zerging isn’t playing together, it’s people doing their own thing who just happened to have the same target

‘When you look at the art in our game, you say “Wow that’s visually stunning, I’ve never seen anything like that before.” And then when you play the combat in our game, you say “Wow that’s incredible, I’ve never seen anything like that.
In most games you go out, and you have really fun tasks occasionally to do. And the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again.’ – This contradicts itself really seeing how the game turned out
In the game world these horrible centaurs are standing around in a field and you get a quest step that says “Go kill ten centaurs”. We don’t think that’s OK. – Apparently, you do.

We don’t want to make the same MMO that everyone else is building – Haha, oh wow
in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world, it’s your story, you affect things around you in a very permanent way. ’ – It feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this

You’re meeting new people, whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, then remember you – Unless I turn my back and the event comes rolling around again within 10 seconds. Dear fishermen of Viathan Lake, I think you should just relocate..

Ad I only pulled out the easy ones.

1. The world is persistent. How can you claim it’s not. That’s the most ridiculous thing said on these forums in a long time. Persistent means it persists, even if no players are on the map…which is the case. The world is persistent.

2. So what makes a storyline FULLY branching or not FULLY branching? Infinite choices? Did you really expect that. It’s a storyline that branches…and it branches quite a lot. I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t live up to that. Maybe you’re reading something into the idea besides that’s being said?

3. Zerging isn’t playing together? I don’t know. I’m playing with other people, even in a zerg. HOWEVER< some of us are in guilds and play with each other all the time doing events. Do you rez people when down in a zerg? Lots of people do. Maybe you don’t knwo what playing together means.

In fact, I’m not sure you’ve played this game at all.

Skyline.3480:

Mike O’brien said:If you love MMO’s, you’ll want to check out Guild Wars 2, and if you hate MMO’s you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2.

Pardon me Mr O’brien, but I think what you meant to say was:

If you love MMO’s you’ll really want to check out GW2, and if you hate MMO’s you’ll really really want to stay the hell as far away from GW2 as possible.

I hate MMOs and like Guild Wars 2, so your statement is incorrect.

Skyline.3480:

Vayne.8563:

Anet saw people ignoring events, and they saw people complaining about the personal story and they came up with something else.

Instead of actually fixing those aspects they decided to take the cowards way out.

Funny comment. Fixing WHAT? Redoing the entire personal story after it’s unsuccessful? Rehiring all the voice actors? Making people wait 2 years? Seriously?

It’s all so easy when you’re not doing the work. How would you suggest they fix it? For one thing they’d have to change how people play and that can’t be done so easily.

Maybe they took the smart way out which is also the only way that would have worked. You can say it’s the easy way all you want. Changing direction and kitten ing off your core user base is never the easy way out for a business. It’s an act of desperation.

haviz.1340:

eisberg.2379:

ok, and? Has a persistent world, and has had one since day 1.

Gw1 had persistent great temple of balthazar.

In which you couldn’t use skills or fight, or play. It was a lobby. Not quite the same thing. All lobby games have lobbies, but you’re not playing the game in them. You’re gathering your group in them.

gw1 had a persistent world in the sense that it kept expanding not just “living”.
Also if you (a general unspecific you not just vayne) hate mmo’s you’ll really really want to stay the hell away from gw2. – point makes sense if you dont think you as an individual disprove it.
Could have changed the personal story by fixing zhaitan fight. Thats one step. Next they could have reworked a couple of the last few missions which i think people had the most complaints about because you never cared for many of the people (idk really i havent even finished my personal story although i have done zhaitan so i know how it ends)

Vayne.8563:

In which you couldn’t use skills or fight, or play. It was a lobby. Not quite the same thing. All lobby games have lobbies, but you’re not playing the game in them. You’re gathering your group in them.

How’s that relevant? You’re gathering groups in LA as well.

haviz.1340:

Vayne.8563:

In which you couldn’t use skills or fight, or play. It was a lobby. Not quite the same thing. All lobby games have lobbies, but you’re not playing the game in them. You’re gathering your group in them.

How’s that relevant? You’re gathering groups in LA as well.

The point remains.

The world persists whether you enter it or not. If you enter the world, you’re not alone there if someone else enters it. You own a dungeon instance if you enter the dungeon. You don’t own a Queensdale instance if you enter Queensdale. It was already there, and therefore, it is persistent. That’s what the word means.

So, Guild Wars 1, zone created for you when you leave an outpost. Not persistent.
Guild Wars 2, zones created which anyone can enter. Persistent.

And great temple of balthazar american district-1 was also persistent.

Haviz, I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and can find almost nothing from your posts to help contribute to the growth of the game. It’s nothing but senseless attacks and justifications that other MMO’s and/or GW1 is way better than GW2. What are you trying to accomplish here exactly? Stir up enmity among the community?

I still don’t get why the manifesto and “word for word” are in the same sentence. A manifesto is a declaration of your intentions how to work toward your beleifs, it’s not a word for word promise, just sayin’.

Helobelo.2470:

I still don’t get why the manifesto and “word for word” are in the same sentence. A manifesto is a declaration of your intentions how to work toward your beleifs, it’s not a word for word promise, just sayin’.

But people are taking it as a bible and GW2 is the religion. People think that the manifesto is an unbreakable vow that ANet needs to strictly follow and one diversion from the intention would mean a catastrophe, an apocalypse.

darkace.8925:

knives.6345:

Again, ANet is not a charity to cheer people up – they need to meet a certain profit.

Does anyone really believe they wouldn’t have been profitable with the game they set out to make? The game they wanted to make, in my opinion, was ten times what Guild Wars was. And if Guild Wars was profitable enough to get the go-ahead on a sequel, then I can’t imagine the difference between sticking with their vision and changing it being so great that it meant the difference between profitable enough and not.

And a question I don’t imagine too many people asked themselves is “are the people for whom they changed the game in it for the long-haul either way?” I won’t pretend to know that answer, but I’ll be watching to see what server activity looks like when some of the upcoming AAA MMOs hit the market next year.

Profitable and MORE profitable are 2 different things. Staying well in the required quota is good – staying ABOVE the quota is excellent.

It’s not greed – before anyone bashes. It’s how companies work. They always have a goal to get more income – and beat the previous monthly/quarterly/annually record.

Pariah.8506:

knives.6345:

ANet maintains servers, which is an expense.

Server maintenance is cheap, even City of Heroes managed to turn a profit server costs nonetheless and it was a forsaken graveyard on an island in the pacific, in terms of population.

knives.6345:

ANet maintains a team of support personnel, which is an expense.

Well tell that support personnel to start supporting EU / NA teaming for instances instead of staring at yet another ‘Network Error’.

knives.6345:

ANet maintains a team of developers, game designers, which is an expense.

They do? Seeing how long things go unfixed, or what their fixes look like (remember the Ranger shortbow animation thing? Yeah) one should question if there is a team at all and if there is who the “kitten” is in it.

knives.6345:

ANet maintains a relationship with other companies to print logos, burn digital copies, ship discs – which is an expense.

I hope you know that burning a disc costs pennies, not to mention most sales were digital as is to be expected in our day and age. As for the logo printing, are you even serious? Or are you telling me it was an absolute necessity they create those merchandise T-shirts that one save the devs ever wears and keyboards that nobody ever uses? And that this apparently necessary expense cost them an arm and a leg?

knives.6345:

ANet probably rents an office – which is an expense.

As opposed to what? Bums? Every person pays for a roof above their heads.

knives.6345:

ANet maintains office supplies, probably food – though minimal, still an expense.

Ah, food for Izzy. Now I finally know where the money went to.

knives.6345:

ANet pays taxes – which is an expense.

You make it sound like they’re the only people in the world paying taxes.

knives.6345:

Again, ANet is not a charity to cheer people up – they need to meet a certain profit.

Guild Wars 1 made enough profit to warrant 2 extra games and an expansion AND it was of a quality better than GW2 can even dream of coming close to.
So being a “charity to cheer people up” – as you so weirdly define a company that puts effort into their product – and turning a profit are not mutually exclusive.

Still an expense and compared to the person the other forumer gave in comparison, ANet still spends more than the person (not even sure if fictional or not)

Point being – ANet went to the route that is more competitive in the current market in the long run (competitive, not appealing) and the route that generates MORE (more, not adequate) income.

People in the forums only think of what they want and what’s on the present. ANet is a company – it has a “vision” for the future – it has plans – it has long term goals.

And I believe ANet is not the parent company so…

ArenaNet is never, ever going to live this down, it appears. And rightly so. I hope people keep shoving the manifesto back in ArenaNet’s face for as long as it takes.

You can quibble all you want – it’s pretty clear that the spirit of the Manifesto is nothing close to what got delivered in GW2.

knives.6345:

It’s not greed – before anyone bashes. It’s how companies work. They always have a goal to get more income – and beat the previous monthly/quarterly/annually record.

Yes, but profits and growth don’t have to be the driving factor behind every decision a company makes. I don’t know if these stores exist overseas, but in Amercia Chick Fil A and Hobby Lobby are closed on Sundays because their owners believe that day should be reserved for religious and familial purposes.

Sunday is obviously a big shopping day since many people actually have the time to do their shopping. Yet these two companies sacrifice the extra money they’d make on that day for something they believe in. Now I’ll admit I don’t know if those companies are publicly owned (I’d guess not), so this isn’t an apples-to-apples comparison.

One of the main reasons I got into this game is because the developers in every blog, interview, and video game the impression that they believed in what they were doing. Their passion for making something better than the genre-norm was as refreshing as their reversal on that ideal was disappointing.

darkace.8925:

knives.6345:

It’s not greed – before anyone bashes. It’s how companies work. They always have a goal to get more income – and beat the previous monthly/quarterly/annually record.

Yes, but profits and growth don’t have to be the driving factor behind every decision a company makes. I don’t know if these stores exist overseas, but in Amercia Chick Fil A and Hobby Lobby are closed on Sundays because their owners believe that day should be reserved for religious and familial purposes.

Sunday is obviously a big shopping day since many people actually have the time to do their shopping. Yet these two companies sacrifice the extra money they’d make on that day for something they believe in. Now I’ll admit I don’t know if those companies are publicly owned (I’d guess not), so this isn’t an apples-to-apples comparison.

One of the main reasons I got into this game is because the developers in every blog, interview, and video game the impression that they believed in what they were doing. Their passion for making something better than the genre-norm was as refreshing as their reversal on that ideal was disappointing.

Yeah, competition must also be factored. The interest of the many outweigh the interest of the few.

And again, you’re response is about “you”. Yourself. Sure, there are others that thinks like you, that has a stand like you – but long term goal again – it’s not about individuals – it’s about the whole. ANet can’t please everyone. They know that. They’ll be pleasing the majority. I don’t honestly know who the majority is, as I don’t even have a raw data – but observing the trend, I think I have an idea.

They did not become a business yesterday – they know what they are doing. Sure, they need feedback – but asking them to cling over something they think/know will not work? Nah.

eisberg.2379:

Pariah.8506:

Persistent world – nope

Stopped after reading this, figured the rest must have been dead wrong as well. The game is in fact has a persistent world, and has been like that since day 1. Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistant world, because when you were questing, it was just you and your team that was in the world, it was instanced created just for you and your team, where as with Guild Wars 2 there are no instances just for you and your team, instead it has a persistent world where everyone plays in.
[/quote]

I was referring to the Personal Story, an exception in name only is the Southsun Cove, which although isn’t removed from the game in can be considered that since it’s a wasteland nobody every goes to. For good reason too.

Vayne.8563:

cesmode.4257:

MrRuin.9740:

And you wonder why Anet won’t give a straight answer about a lot of things. I don’t know about Anet, but I know I’m tired of seeing the kittening thing.
It’s one thing to lobby for a change in the gamestate or help shape and push it in a direction that you would like or feel that it would be better, its another to cling to this one kittening statement and whip it out like its the golden law every week.

You can bet if Anet learned anything from the Manifesto…its to not have one out there and to say as little as possible because this is what happens.

I can’t think of one game that Ive played in the last 10 years that had as bold of a mission statement as Arenanet’s manifesto. Developers don’t do that. They don’t sit in front of camera and make bold claims about what their game will be, wont be, etc. And then later on when things aren’t working out, they claim that we ‘mis understood’.

I remember Rift devs making some pretty bold claims. Maybe you weren’t listening?

I wasn’t listening. I didnt follow the game development. I started playing several months after Rift’s launch. I was on the forums a decent amount and really didnt see much in the way of “you lied to us!!”. Instead i saw a lot of "Wow, a lot of new content. New zones, new end game systems for single, due, and group content. New raids, etc. " I did see, however, a lot of performance related threads. Rift’s engine is pitiful with regard to performance, but thats another matter.

Please correct me, since I seem to be wrong in this matter. Would like to know what they promised or what they touted as a core aspect of their game, which turned out to be not. What did they hype up which turned out to be flat? (serious, would like to know )