Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

Please provide a quote showing this, as I haven’t seen it. If the makers of another game do it, this isn’t proof that players appreciate that kind of marketing strategy.

I’m not putting up links to other games, but you can Google it, they announced it was part of the backwards compatibility deal for XBone.

The fact is, once a game has been out for a year or more, the value typically drops to “junk” status, even if it was a really good game (not counting physical copies of hard to find vintage games, of course). They go for Steam sales at less than 10% their original MSRP, they get bundled into package deals or freebies, that’s just the way of the markets. GW2 is often on sale for $10, and I believe the only reason it doesn’t drop even lower is not because they really mind giving it away to genuine potential customers, but rather they want some minimal financial investment for potential scammers. If people are willing to pay $50 for HoT, they’ve spent at least $50, so it’s no skin off ANet’s nose to give them core GW2 as well.

If the 50 price tag is because you are buying both games(say 10 for core, 40 for expansion) then the game developers should sell an expansion only version for 40.

No. The $50 price tag is for HoT. It was ALWAYS the price tag for HoT. They are also throwing in core Gw2 for free. It makes up exactly 0% of the price of HoT, not 20% as you assert it should, 0%. If they remove it, it’s still $50, because that is the price of HoT, not the price of HoT+GW2, just the price of HoT is $50.

Should I repeat that or has it sunk in yet?

You are infinitely more patient than me, kudos to you for keeping level headed the entire time you’ve discussed this with folks. ( I pull my hair out just reading )

As my only addition : The whole thing just seems so silly, I’ve seen so many people attempt to explain the issue from both sides and it’s a complete disconnect. Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue. ( Keep in mind , we can disagree on some pieces but not all, I.E I still want more content information before I pull the trigger ) Other folks genuinely feel they are entitled to more something , warranted or not.

savageschemer.1036:

People throwing around the word “entitlement” in the HoT pre-purchase discussion(s) really should learn what the word means. Entitlement in the ongoing community discussion would be, “I’m a veteran player, therefore I should get the expansion for free”. That’s not, as near as I’ve been able to tell, what one single person over hundreds of pages of threads has said. Instead the ENTIRE discussion has been, “if ArenaNet wants my money, then something needs to change”.

That “something” has been different for different people joining in the discussion, and is central to the debate. For some its that the price is too high no matter what. For others, they want ArenaNet to “sweeten the pot” a bit before they commit their hard-earned money to a purchase (which is how business negotiation and trade works). Others still feel the value being offered in the product punishes the very people who’ve provided ArenaNet with past revenue over those that have never provided them any revenue. Finally there are those who feel the product for its price is completely fair as-is. I assume most of the "entitlement’ meme repeaters fit into this last category. These are all examples of people making value statements.

To reiterate, the discussion this community has been having, then, is 100% based on the exchange of money for a product, making the entire discussion one of value by definition, not entitlement. So please, please stop using the “entitlement” meme if you’re one of the people who disagrees with the value statement being made by others in our community. It just makes you look ignorant.

I agree, people using the word entitlement should know what it means. Here is the definition:

en·ti·tle·ment

/in?t?dlm?nt,en?t?dlm?nt/

noun: entitlement; plural noun: entitlements

1) the fact of having a right to something.

“full entitlement to fees and maintenance should be offered”

synonyms:

right, prerogative, claim; More permission, dispensation, privilege

“their entitlement to benefits”

2) •the amount to which a person has a right.

“annual leave entitlement”

synonyms:

right, prerogative, claim; More permission, dispensation, privilege

“their entitlement to benefits”

3)the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.

“no wonder your kids have a sense of entitlement”

So yes, the arguments that NCSoft should offer a different HoT package to pre existing GW2 players are absolutely ones of entitlement.

The debate about whether $50 is a fair price for the expansion content is one of values.

Samhaim.8956:

Teon.5168:

That very same argument could be made for the original game. They put 3 characters (challenging content as I haven’t played those classes)that you did not have behind an 800 gem paywall for each one.

“How would you guys felt if they took whatever they have as “challenging content” and put behind a 800 gems paywall? Would you still feel fine over it?"

I have already been there and done that for 3 of my characters……so no, I have no problem with them doing that for the revenant.

Sure, it would have been a neat bonus for the core expansion, but I am most certainly not going to get my panties all in a wad over it.

You need to come up with a better argument that actually makes sense, and then drop the condescending attitude when people disagree with it.

Its hard not to be condescending when people are seriously suggesting character deletion as a valid argument and completely missing the point i’ve been making for a while now.

I know it is pointless as you seem to think that you are absolutely correct with your nonsensical argument, but I would imagine there is a very valid reason why people are ‘missing your point’.

Given how much you blabber on most of what i cant be bothered to read you sir seem to have a small case of entitlement of entitlement against Entitlement

savageschemer.1036:

People throwing around the word “entitlement” in the HoT pre-purchase discussion(s) really should learn what the word means. Entitlement in the ongoing community discussion would be, “I’m a veteran player, therefore I should get the expansion for free”. That’s not, as near as I’ve been able to tell, what one single person over hundreds of pages of threads has said. Instead the ENTIRE discussion has been, “if ArenaNet wants my money, then something needs to change”.

That “something” has been different for different people joining in the discussion, and is central to the debate. For some its that the price is too high no matter what. For others, they want ArenaNet to “sweeten the pot” a bit before they commit their hard-earned money to a purchase (which is how business negotiation and trade works). Others still feel the value being offered in the product punishes the very people who’ve provided ArenaNet with past revenue over those that have never provided them any revenue. Finally there are those who feel the product for its price is completely fair as-is. I assume most of the "entitlement’ meme repeaters fit into this last category. These are all examples of people making value statements.

To reiterate, the discussion this community has been having, then, is 100% based on the exchange of money for a product, making the entire discussion one of value by definition, not entitlement. So please, please stop using the “entitlement” meme if you’re one of the people who disagrees with the value statement being made by others in our community. It just makes you look ignorant.

It’s not a meme.

Teon.5168:

I know it is pointless as you seem to think that you are absolutely correct with your nonsensical argument, but I would imagine there is a very valid reason why people are ‘missing your point’.

Must be because you have selective reading as you seem to skip everything that i and others write that explains the point across and never gives a reply to it.
So if you’re not gonna reply to the part of the posts that perfectly explains the situation and be a prick about it, its better to just not reply to it at all don’t you think?

Initially I wanted to buy the ultimate pack for my son and I because I thought 4000 gems + 1 character slot is more than the cost of $50. But after reading all the complaints about $50 being overpriced for a basic pack, I am having second thoughts about the expansion.

You guys have changed my mind as I feel your pain. I am waiting to see how ArenaNet would respond.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Initially I wanted to buy the ultimate pack for my son and I because I thought 4000 gems + 1 character slot is more than the cost of $50. But after reading all the complaints about $50 being overpriced for a basic pack, I am having second thoughts about the expansion.

I’m sure he’d love it.
Don’t mind everybody else.
They’re just expressing their ‘value statements’.
~TG

chefdiablo.6791:

It seems like most people just wanted a character slot included with the expansion so they could play the new class.

A bit of research might have solved this problem before the package pricing was made available.

Of course the possibility would still exist that many would still complain about the pricing of those packages regardless of a character slot included with the base expansion.

I don’t think it is unreasonable for the players to want a free character slot included in the base package. A character slot is not something physical that needs to be manufactured. It would have been a simple good will gesture for everyone, Veteran players and new players to enjoy, with only one side completely understanding the value of that gesture right now.

Pretty much….yeah…If the core game is devalued now to $10, then why didn’t it cross their minds to gives vet a $10 character slot? I mean, duh? Now they have this whole debacle going on because no one thought of that.

Would people still complain? Course some would. But it wouldn’t be to this degree. And you would have more people arguing against them that it IS a fair deal ($10 and $10).

Samhaim.8956:

Teon.5168:

I know it is pointless as you seem to think that you are absolutely correct with your nonsensical argument, but I would imagine there is a very valid reason why people are ‘missing your point’.

Must be because you have selective reading as you seem to skip everything that i and others write that explains the point across and never gives a reply to it.
So if you’re not gonna reply to the part of the posts that perfectly explains the situation and be a prick about it, its better to just not reply to it at all don’t you think?

Let me be as simple as I can for you. (Sound familiar?)

Seriously, when you bought the game you never thought that having as many slots as classes was a non issue? That you would never ever need to buy new slots for new characters?

If that is so, nice job at alienating an entire segment of the playerbase(those called altoholics) with your argument. They’ll certainly miss your point.

I am an altoholic player, and my first priority, with any mmo, is to take every single class to the max level and have those characters available to play whenever I want. So yea, I bought the original game knowing I would have to buy more slots.

Xgamer’s argument is also invalid. ‘Well, you can just play a character for a certain amount of time to determine whether you like them or not, and then delete them with no huge investment, therefore not having to buy another slot’. That won’t happen with an altoholic player, and since the new trait stuff awhile back, that is now completely impossible to do, as there is no way to find out how a new class plays until you have a very significant investment in that character’s level.

Just because you think your argument is the bees knees for all involved, because it is what you think……does not make it even remotely so for a lot of other people.

Again, not even sure why I am even trying to lay it out for you so simply. I know you will stubbornly disagree and won’t really read anything I have said.

I am dealing with a generational mindset problem here, and it truly is pointless to continue.

I could make more points about your extremely limited way of thinking on this issue, but that will just end up being a few more wasted minutes that I will never get back.

Talking to you about another viewpoint or opinion on this issue is complete waste. If you think that counts for an “I WIN!”…..then knock yourself out.

Sigh, and there go another few minutes I will never get back. You’d think I would learn by now.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Initially I wanted to buy the ultimate pack for my son and I because I thought 4000 gems + 1 character slot is more than the cost of $50. But after reading all the complaints about $50 being overpriced for a basic pack, I am having second thoughts about the expansion.

You guys have changed my mind as I feel your pain. I am waiting to see how ArenaNet would respond.

In all seriousness if you were looking at a particular package ArenaNet is offering and you thought, “yeah, ok, a great gift” then I’d probably go ahead and buy it. I’m sure your son will love it regardless.

Just steer him clear of the forums.

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

How should I put this?

If you maxed out your character slots to 8 and use all those slots, then you can’t just get another one.

Now, go on a character and type /age. That is the cost of deleting that character. Time. Effort. + however much gold was spent on armor, bag slots, etc. For some, that’s okay. Maybe you didn’t like those classes and just made them as bag mules. For others, that’s very very not okay. And for the ones who that’s very very not okay, that’s probably because they put a lot of time and effort into all of those characters. And you’re telling them that they can’t try out the new content unless they pay
a) the time shown in /age + the gold spent on that character
or
b) $25 extra (which happens to be 2.5x the regular cost of an extra character slot, a price they wouldn’t have to pay if they didn’t already max out their slots)

It’s the kind of thing that is negligible for those who don’t put a lot of time into multiple classes, but punishes the ones who put a lot of time into what can be considered EVERYTHING that’s available to them. And that’s very backwards. Everything about how this is set up benefits the people who play and experiment the least and puts veterans in a bad position.

- New Player: Get original game + get expansion + freedom to choose whatever you want without sacrificing anything else

- Current with one main and some characters you don’t care about: Get expansion. Delete a character or buy an additional slot ($10) if you want to make a revenant.

- Current with maxed slots with multiple characters you actively use: Get expansion. Delete a character or buy higher level product ($25) if you want to make a revenant.

The more you care about what you have, the higher the price gets.

Nilix.2170:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

How should I put this?

If you maxed out your character slots to 8 and use all those slots, then you can’t just get another one.

Now, go on a character and type /age. That is the cost of deleting that character. Time. Effort. + however much gold was spent on armor, bag slots, etc. For some, that’s okay. Maybe you didn’t like those classes and just made them as bag mules. For others, that’s very very not okay. And for the ones who that’s very very not okay, that’s probably because they put a lot of time and effort into all of those characters. And you’re telling them that they can’t try out the new content unless they pay
a) the time shown in /age + the gold spent on that character
or
b) $25 extra (which happens to be 2.5x the regular cost of an extra character slot, a price they wouldn’t have to pay if they didn’t already max out their slots)

It’s the kind of thing that is negligible for those who don’t put a lot of time into multiple classes, but punishes the ones who put a lot of time into what can be considered EVERYTHING that’s available to them. And that’s very backwards. Everything about how this is set up benefits the people who play and experiment the least and puts veterans in a bad position.

- New Player: Get original game + get expansion + freedom to choose whatever you want without sacrificing anything else

- Current with one main and some characters you don’t care about: Get expansion. Delete a character or buy an additional slot ($10) if you want to make a revenant.

- Current with maxed slots with multiple characters you actively use: Get expansion. Delete a character or buy higher level product ($25) if you want to make a revenant.

The more you care about what you have, the higher the price gets.

Just curious, but you do realize that the max character slots for an account is 64, not 8.

savageschemer.1036:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Initially I wanted to buy the ultimate pack for my son and I because I thought 4000 gems + 1 character slot is more than the cost of $50. But after reading all the complaints about $50 being overpriced for a basic pack, I am having second thoughts about the expansion.

You guys have changed my mind as I feel your pain. I am waiting to see how ArenaNet would respond.

In all seriousness if you were looking at a particular package ArenaNet is offering and you thought, “yeah, ok, a great gift” then I’d probably go ahead and buy it. I’m sure your son will love it regardless.

Just steer him clear of the forums.

The forums are important because they are the reviews from ArenaNet’s customers. I never buy an item from Amazon without first reading the customer reviews, both good and bad.

In the same way, it is important to me for ArenaNet to treat its valued customers fairly and respond to their questions, especially when so many of them + gaming websites have already chimed in on this issue:

http://kotaku.com/players-are-kittened-over-guild-wars-2-expansion-pricing-1712551999
http://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-2-players-rightly-upset-by-heart-of-thorns-pre-purchase-scheme/
http://www.vg247.com/2015/06/19/guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-price-pc/

just to name a few…This is all over the internet now.

Note that for a MMO, it is not a 1-time payment, take our money and run. This is a much longer relationship between ArenaNet and their customers. Other customers are watching intently on how ArenaNet handles these complaints.

Teon.5168:

Just curious, but you do realize that the max character slots for an account is 64, not 8.

Most of his argument still stands tho, and just as a last reply to your post, you’re ok with content you paid for being put behind a paywall and i am not, at least not in the current way of how they are offering their expansion, because i’m being forced to pay extra since i already have my 5 slots filled with characters in which i invested time and money into and that i will not delete.

I know for a fact I am “entitled” to play HoT and I’ll tell you why.

I bought it. It’s paid for. There’s my entitlement

Nilix.2170:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

How should I put this?
snipped

I understand the explanation, that’s not the disconnect for me. The disconnect is I think whomever is wrong when they think they should get an extra character slot. I’ve got seven slots myself, 7 are filled with characters I refuse to delete ; I still don’t think I should get a free character slot. ( By free I mean in addition to the base package ) It was my choice to load my account with extra characters and every time I’ve started a new one, it’s been a slot purchase. I guess it’s just a mindset sorta thing, with multiple variables. I’ll amend that you and others might have a point, albeit one I don’t understand ( tricky bit ), in regards to the base package including an additional character slot or the equivalent gems. I’ll also amend that regardless of my personal feelings on it whomever has the right to request this modification. If whomever does receive it I’ll consider Anet just caving to the outcry of a subset of players I don’t understand or agree with. ( Neither a good or bad thing for me )

BUT – I still stick to my guns in regards to some of the people in threads such as this do indeed believe they are entitled to far and above what they should rationally expect. Exampled : I purchased Gw2 three years ago, I’ve supported the game, I deserve X because you are bundling the base game. They are out there, and they are loud.

Ohoni.6057:

The entitlement meme will stop when people stop whining about how they are entitled to more than they are.

As a player, you are entitled to get exactly what you paid for. If you paid for the core game, you are entitled to the core game. If you paid for gems and bought things with those gems, you are entitled to the things that you bought with those gems. If you buy the HoT base kit at $50, you are entitled to the things listed in that base kit.

Nothing more.

If you are whining about how ANet has “betrayed” you or “owes” you anything, then that is entitlement, and if you don’t like being called out on that, then stop being that.

And in the mean time we’re perfectly entitled to tell Anet that what they’re currently offering is not worth the price they’ve put on it.

If you don’t like that then you don’t have to read the threads about it.

I only clicked on this post to see a meme of entitlement. 0/10 Disappointed

“I’m a veteran so I deserve a character slot to play the revenant”.

Sounds like entitlement to me, thinking oneself deserves or has the rights to something.

Guys, the core game came with 5 character slots and there wasn’t a huge outcry about not being able to play all 8 professions. So if you want to play more than 5 characters/professions do what everyone else had to do for the past ~3 years and purchase an additional character slot if you want to play a new profession.

Y’all are really riding the entitlement wave to try to get something for free because the company helped out the newbies.

Ytlayol.5864:

“I’m a veteran so I deserve a character slot to play the revenant”.

Who are you quoting there?

Manasa Devi.7958:

Ytlayol.5864:

“I’m a veteran so I deserve a character slot to play the revenant”.

Who are you quoting there?

No one, considering that the people that feel that they deserve to play with the revenant are the very same people that are willing to pay $50 for it. Apparently, Ytlayoy thinks that getting what you pay for is “entitlement”.

Samhaim.8956:

It actually isn’t the same, the base game was never sold on the premise of playing 8 different classes, only that it had 8 different classes to pick from.
The Revenant is being market as a core part of HoT for which we must either delete a character, which is honestly one of the most stupid suggestions i’ve heard in a while (yea let’s forget about all the time and money you spent on it, it clearly doesn’t matter at all), or pay $10 more, effectively making the expansion value to be $60 and that’s just overpriced.
It’s a clear cash grab that threats us customers as nothing more then money bags, so why the kitten should we not question what we are getting for the money we are being asked to spend?

How is deleting a character a stupid suggestion to solve your issue? What progression on it is so valuable that it is beyond comprehension to use it to make space for a new character? I can only think of a few: world completion progress (not a big deal), personal story progression (also not that important), gems spent on inventory expansion (rather costly) and gold spent to unlock traits (moot). I suppose any soulbound exotic+ equipment as well but for things like that, there are ways to mitigate the loss. Yes, it’s not a simple painless solution, but it is the quickest without paying any extra resources. For some, that is a real option to keep in mind.

As for this whole thing being a cash grab, News Flash: DUH! Anet is a company. They have to make money off boxes and gems. This isn’t a charity! They do have an option for those that don’t want to buy gems with cash WHICH IS A REAL OPTION! And that option extends to character slots! What I don’t get is, there are people who play the trading post and exploit the game for fast gold and easy drops. What do you think they do with all that wealth? I’m not the richest player in the game (possibly runner up for the poorest) but I know this whole thing is run on a business. Yes, you have to question what you get for the price tag, but there’s also the question of what else they ask from you once the transaction is closed. If the expansion were $10, that might sound like a deal, but if they’re asking for a $20 monthly sub fee, that’s a whole other ballgame. I think $50 is a bit too much too but a character slot isn’t the bargaining chip that matters! It’s how much content is actually in the thing and what plans they have to continue to add onto it after the fact. You can just sell some drops to get a character slot, but you can’t get more attention to personal story or lore advancement with a couple in-game chores and some gems.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Ohoni.6057:

Do I think it’d be nice of them to give us a free character slot? Sure, free things are always nice.

If you are paying $50 to play with a revenant, then the character slot required to play the revenant is not a “free thing”. It’s a required mechanism for you to be able to use the very class you just paid for.

Also, having 1+ choices to pick a class and having 0 choices are not the same thing.

Just thinking logically here, that means the options exist as: $50 to play the expansion; $60 for the same + a slot IF you need it; $75 for all the above + a few goodies; $100 to get some extra gems on top.

I see those as options to fill various circumstances. Me paying $50 to get an extra slot I’m not going to use anytime soon (until a new race pops up) feels like forcing a slot on me without the choice of opting out. Why can’t I just pay $40 then and get the expansion without a slot? It’s just a cycle that honestly doesn’t end until you’re buying each individual part of the HoT content piecewise.

And from how it’s explained, you aren’t spending $50 to play Revenant, you’re paying $50 to access HoT content. Being given access and being handed to you are two different things.

OP, while I disagree with your interpretation with what entitlement means, I absolutely agree no one should use the word. By the token people should stop using blind and fanboy and white knight too, because it’s used only to discredit and has no bearing on the conversation. Both sides are guilty of hyperbole and name calling and it should stop.

Speaking as a person who has paid considerable amounts of money for gems since release, upgraded 5 characters with maximum bag slots and storage space, and purchased pretty much anything that facilitates convenience, including unlimited use harvesting and salvaging tools for each character I play, costumes, skins, crafting liscences and fluff items: I can say that after a thousand or more dollars invested in Anet/NCSoft I am entitled to absolutely nothing.

Anet has offered me the opportunity to pre order the expansion with scant information as to the scope of its content and it is my choice to avail myself of the opportunity or not. As much as I try, I cannot with any sense of logic or reason think of any reason to be upset.

In fact, using the same reason and logic that disables me to be upset makes me feel kind of indebted to Anet for the thousand of hours of fun they have allowed me to have.

Welcome to the internet, where everyone is “entitled” if they disagree with you and everyone is mad about something. “Entitled” is the buzz word to use, because it almost always illicit a reaction.

The thing that most MMO players need to learn early on, and usually fail to, is a LOT of people are playing the game with them. Most people say “yea yea, I know that. We all want different things”, but then I still see posts like this.

Think about it: if there are 500,000 active players right now (which is a conservative estimate based on how many boxed copies were sold) and only 0.1% of the playerbase got mad about something and posted about it on forums, that’s 500 people on forums kittening. For the forums, that is a LOT of people posting negatively, most of them likely making multiple posts each.

People throw around the terms “kittenstorm” and “pandemic” when, in actuality, it’s likely not even close. I have, in my 20 years of MMO playing, seen 1 true “kittenstorm”, and that was Blizzard’s WoW forums when they announced Real ID. That is the one and only true explosion of customer rage that I’ve seen on an MMO forum. Everything else? Just another day for an MMO.

EDIT: The second biggest rage I’ve seen was actually on these forums, back when Ascended gear released. Nowhere near the explosion that Real ID caused, but much larger than anything else I’ve witnessed.

People using the word “entitlement” are whats wrong with the gaming community and are the reason so many gamers consistently get screwed by gaming companies.

People that actually think money for a product isn’t enough, that the companies also need never ending praise and stamping out criticism so they won’t be forced to “change” what they love to play.

And in the mean time we’re perfectly entitled to tell Anet that what they’re currently offering is not worth the price they’ve put on it.

Sure, so long as they do so in a respectful manner, and not with the sense that they are “owed” more than has been offered. That is what is entitlement, not that people are dissatisfied with the current offering and would like some more, but that they feel more is owed to them and that ANet is somehow wrong for not offering them what they’d like.

Ohoni.6057:

The entitlement meme will stop when people stop whining about how they are entitled to more than they are.

As a player, you are entitled to get exactly what you paid for. If you paid for the core game, you are entitled to the core game. If you paid for gems and bought things with those gems, you are entitled to the things that you bought with those gems. If you buy the HoT base kit at $50, you are entitled to the things listed in that base kit.

Nothing more.

If you are whining about how ANet has “betrayed” you or “owes” you anything, then that is entitlement, and if you don’t like being called out on that, then stop being that.

lol, so not being able to play the new proffesion offered by the expansion without paying extra is feeling entittlement? or complaining as a new player that bought the game on sale 3 weeks ago and is getting 3 or so months of gameplay for the price of the full game when they could get it free 3 months later is being “entitled”?

You seriously need to read the arguments first and learn common negotiation skills. You likely will not succeed in a negotiators role with the attitude you adopted and seriously need to read the opposing arguments before you respond to them.

+1 Great Post.
As a member since early GW1, I just feel that if Anet don’t not want to send me even a small perk as a thank you for spending (more than I am willing to admit to) for continuing, then I must really evaluate how much they really want me.
$10 discount from full package (upgrade price), and a character slot is not asking too much

Tolmos.8395:

Welcome to the internet, where everyone is “entitled” if they disagree with you and everyone is mad about something. “Entitled” is the buzz word to use, because it almost always illicit a reaction.

The thing that most MMO players need to learn early on, and usually fail to, is a LOT of people are playing the game with them. Most people say “yea yea, I know that. We all want different things”, but then I still see posts like this.

Think about it: if there are 500,000 active players right now (which is a conservative estimate based on how many boxed copies were sold) and only 0.1% of the playerbase got mad about something and posted about it on forums, that’s 500 people on forums kittening. For the forums, that is a LOT of people posting negatively, most of them likely making multiple posts each.

People throw around the terms “kittenstorm” and “pandemic” when, in actuality, it’s likely not even close. I have, in my 20 years of MMO playing, seen 1 true “kittenstorm”, and that was Blizzard’s WoW forums when they announced Real ID. That is the one and only true explosion of customer rage that I’ve seen on an MMO forum. Everything else? Just another day for an MMO.

EDIT: The second biggest rage I’ve seen was actually on these forums, back when Ascended gear released. Nowhere near the explosion that Real ID caused, but much larger than anything else I’ve witnessed.

You forgot the gem exchange debacle….

“Customer loyalty is becoming the ultimate goal of smart companies today. Loyalty brings a basket of benefits, including lower cost of sales, better revenue predictability, lower customer acquisition costs, greater word-of-mouth referrals and reduced risk. Yet many firms are practically stone deaf when it comes to listening to the voice of their customers. They survey consumers. They handle customer complaints. They collect operational business data. All in a vacuum. And they fail to put in place the management strategies and structures that make customer care an overarching way of doing business”.

“According to John Goodman, vice chairman of TARP Worldwide, a firm specializing in customer experience research, only about 20 to 30 percent of companies have formal, effective voice of the customer programs that create the economic imperative to actually get most issues fixed. Often, responsibility for monitoring, measuring, assessing and addressing the customer experience is distributed among several departments, and the opportunity to glean actionable intelligence for anticipating consumer needs and solving problems before they occur is lost”.

“Goodman says, “The voice of the customer is available at every phase of the business lifecycle, from marketing and sales to support and billing. Putting these pieces together and integrating them with operational data creates a credible, holistic picture of the business enterprise. A few companies have sought to capture and elevate the end-to-end customer experience, but they are the exception.”

“But it is only the “exceptional” company that truly captures the customer’s attention, appreciation, loyalty and enhanced margins. Having the processes, methods and infrastructure in place to move from an environment of commercial transactions to customer relationships is key. But opening the door to customer relationship building and, as a result, customer loyalty, begins at the top with a philosophy of capturing consumer loyalty as a way of doing business. In this context, the organization must be committed not just to satisfying customer requirements, but to anticipating potential problems as well as new requirements and proactively addressing them”.

“Customers who are not loyal, but merely satisfied, are able to switch brands more quickly now,” says loyalty guru Micah Solomon. “Why? Because there are so many choices, many of them very similar, and all of them a click away.”

Matthew D’uva, CAE

Angelica Dream.7103:

+1 Great Post.
As a member since early GW1, I just feel that if Anet don’t not want to send me even a small perk as a thank you for spending (more than I am willing to admit to) for continuing, then I must really evaluate how much they really want me.
$10 discount from full package (upgrade price), and a character slot is not asking too much

Again, most people would’ve been happy with a character slot ($10). If the base game is determined to be worth $10 now, then why not give existing owners a free character? 10 = 10. Sounds fair to me. Why didn’t anyone in marketing think of this?

All I want is a version for the x-pac where the base game is not included. It’s up to the ANET team to figure out how to make that offer fair. $50 for x-pac and one character slot does not sound bad too me.

lol, so not being able to play the new proffesion offered by the expansion without paying extra is feeling entittlement?

No, demanding that they make it free for you is though. Entitlement isn’t about what you want, it’s about how you express that. Do you do it maturely, or immaturely? Do you express it as one adult to another, or as a child who’s parent won’t buy him the toy he wants?

or complaining as a new player that bought the game on sale 3 weeks ago and is getting 3 or so months of gameplay for the price of the full game when they could get it free 3 months later is being “entitled”?

ANet is offering a refund for those players. There will always be people caught on the bad end of a sale, since there will always be a period before a sale is announced. If they announce on a Monday that the price of something will drop by 50%, there will inevitably be people who paid full price on Friday. Ideally the company will do something about that and cover the difference or offer a refund, but the customer is not entitled to one if the company does not choose to offer it. They paid the fair price at the time they made their purchase, and it’s not strictly the company’s problem when the price later falls.

puts down popcorn

Tolmos.8395:

Welcome to the internet, where everyone is “entitled” if they disagree with you and everyone is mad about something. “Entitled” is the buzz word to use, because it almost always illicit a reaction.

The thing that most MMO players need to learn early on, and usually fail to, is a LOT of people are playing the game with them. Most people say “yea yea, I know that. We all want different things”, but then I still see posts like this.

It’s the internet Tolmos, where the “It’s all about me” attitude is not only the norm, it’s expected. Also, the GIFT theory applies nicely, as usual.

Think about it: if there are 500,000 active players right now (which is a conservative estimate based on how many boxed copies were sold) and only 0.1% of the playerbase got mad about something and posted about it on forums, that’s 500 people on forums kittening. For the forums, that is a LOT of people posting negatively, most of them likely making multiple posts each.

And a fair number of them are probably on ANet’s unofficial “Disregard Complaints From These People List” due to their habit about complaining about anything and everything.

There are reasons forums aren’t taken too seriously by ANet. The threads which they would take seriously are more carefully moderated for a reason.

People throw around the terms “kittenstorm” and “pandemic” when, in actuality, it’s likely not even close. I have, in my 20 years of MMO playing, seen 1 true “kittenstorm”, and that was Blizzard’s WoW forums when they announced Real ID. That is the one and only true explosion of customer rage that I’ve seen on an MMO forum. Everything else? Just another day for an MMO.

Yeah, it really is just another day for an MMO. I frankly find the whole thing amusing and entertaining.

I remember that explosion of customer rage. Admittedly, there were some legitimate concerns raised due to Blizzard not properly communicating what Real ID actually meant and entailed, but yeah, that was rather explosive.

Thing is, that blew over, and so will this.

picks popcorn back up

Want some?

Excellent post, OP. Spot on.

Ohoni.6057:

As a player, you are entitled to get exactly what you paid for. If you paid for the core game, you are entitled to the core game. If you paid for gems and bought things with those gems, you are entitled to the things that you bought with those gems. If you buy the HoT base kit at $50, you are entitled to the things listed in that base kit.

Nothing more.

And ironically, yes. Despite what this person is intending to argue, they are right. We are entitled to get exactly what we paid for.

So if you pay for the expansion, then you are entitled to get use of the expansion without needing to pay an additional $10 on top of its sticker price to buy the character slot that will let you gain access to the new profession which is a substantial element of its advertised content.

So if you pay for the expansion, then you are entitled to get use of the expansion without needing to pay an additional $10 on top of its sticker price to buy the character slot that will let you gain access to the new profession which is a substantial element of its advertised content.

No, you are not.

You are entitled to the ability to roll a Revenent into any character slots you may have available, just as you were able to roll any of the original eight classes into any slot you had available. You are NOT entitled to a free slot to put that character into, unless ANet says that you are.

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

Whatever your opinion on deleting characters to make new ones, you must remember that that is a totally subjective matter that is going to feel like a much bigger slight to some people who care about the characters they have made in different ways than you might. (For those who do some roleplay, for example, characters make up individual elements of ongoing stories about which they care deeply.)

What’s factually true, however, is that ANet promised something to players at the PAX South announcement of HoT. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLkfXwxLTs from about 16 minutes in). Within the first minutes of the announcement, Mike O’Brien had said that they did not want to produce an expansion that “invalidates all the work that you’ve put in to your existing characters” by forcing anyone to grind for higher level gear or to reach a raised level cap.

By ANet’s own words, then, spoken in the spirit of their original game manifesto, they wanted to honor the time and effort players have put into their characters thus far, even as the expansion was released. Asking anyone to delete a character in order to gain access to the expansion’s offerings obviously flies directly in the face of that.

And frankly, I think that seeing that suggestion glibly thrown around by some players is doing a tremendous amount to undermine the sense of friendliness and good will in the community—it creates bitterness and anger between us all by making it seem that some players want others to sacrifice their effort, time, and imaginative/emotional energies, while not acknowledging that they themselves would be outraged if it was suggested that they deleted something from their accounts that they had worked hard for and cared about.

If you want to understand why not getting a character slot is such a big deal, then think about some element of your account that you’ve worked hard to get and really care about, and think about how you would feel if it was suggested that you should have it stripped from your account and that you were acting “too entitled” if that upset you or you said it was unfair.

Ohoni.6057:

So if you pay for the expansion, then you are entitled to get use of the expansion without needing to pay an additional $10 on top of its sticker price to buy the character slot that will let you gain access to the new profession which is a substantial element of its advertised content.

No, you are not.

You are entitled to the ability to roll a Revenent into any character slots you may have available, just as you were able to roll any of the original eight classes into any slot you had available. You are NOT entitled to a free slot to put that character into, unless ANet says that you are.

So according to you, everyone is entitled to get what they paid for…except for some people who should pay an inflated price to gain access to the same thing. Riiiiiiight. Well you’ve sure convinced me.

Ohoni.6057:

So if you pay for the expansion, then you are entitled to get use of the expansion without needing to pay an additional $10 on top of its sticker price to buy the character slot that will let you gain access to the new profession which is a substantial element of its advertised content.

No, you are not.

You are entitled to the ability to roll a Revenent into any character slots you may have available, just as you were able to roll any of the original eight classes into any slot you had available. You are NOT entitled to a free slot to put that character into, unless ANet says that you are.

This has been pointed out several times already, but I’ll reiterate.

Whether you like to admit it or not (or even know), Anet has set a precedence in the past of providing a character slots equivalent to the new classes they released per campaign to allow players to get the most out of the new content they’ve released.

If you previously had an account and attached a new campaign there was no demand to delete a character or buy a new slot: there was new content to access and you were given the means to access it right out the box whether you were a new player or a returning/continuing one.

If Anet did not have that history, this may not be such an issue, however it’s unfair to build up a world with historical ties to an old world and expressly appeal to a previous player base then feel shocked when they remember the company’s previous trends.

Honestly, you and others are acting like wanting to access content we’ve paid for straight out the box for the price we’re paying is like pre-established players are demanding a precursor because they’ve been around longer. THAT is entitlement, THIS is asking for EQUAL ACCESS TO CONTENT.

Thanks for that excerpt, DarkSyze.8627. I think the more people know about business goals (as well as advertisement mechanics) can make people better consumers as well as more successful customers. Also of the opinion everyone at some point in their life should put in at least 2 years of customer service work somewhere. Ultimately, it’d help them at least be able to easily discern good customer support vs the ones that don’t give a flip without first being burned.

Pickles.9436:

Angelica Dream.7103:

+1 Great Post.
As a member since early GW1, I just feel that if Anet don’t not want to send me even a small perk as a thank you for spending (more than I am willing to admit to) for continuing, then I must really evaluate how much they really want me.
$10 discount from full package (upgrade price), and a character slot is not asking too much

Again, most people would’ve been happy with a character slot ($10). If the base game is determined to be worth $10 now, then why not give existing owners a free character? 10 = 10. Sounds fair to me. Why didn’t anyone in marketing think of this?

Curious, what if Anet offered some limited time sales on character slots and inventory expansions? Do you feel that isn’t enough?

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

Whatever your opinion on deleting characters to make new ones, you must remember that that is a totally subjective matter that is going to feel like a much bigger slight to some people who care about the characters they have made in different ways than you might. (For those who do some roleplay, for example, characters make up individual elements of ongoing stories about which they care deeply.)

What’s factually true, however, is that ANet promised something to players at the PAX South announcement of HoT. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLkfXwxLTs from about 16 minutes in). Within the first minutes of the announcement, Mike O’Brien had said that they did not want to produce an expansion that “invalidates all the work that you’ve put in to your existing characters” by forcing anyone to grind for higher level gear or to reach a raised level cap.

By ANet’s own words, then, spoken in the spirit of their original game manifesto, they wanted to honor the time and effort players have put into their characters thus far, even as the expansion was released. Asking anyone to delete a character in order to gain access to the expansion’s offerings obviously flies directly in the face of that.

And frankly, I think that seeing that suggestion glibly thrown around by some players is doing a tremendous amount to undermine the sense of friendliness and good will in the community—it creates bitterness and anger between us all by making it seem that some players want others to sacrifice their effort, time, and imaginative/emotional energies, while not acknowledging that they themselves would be outraged if it was suggested that they deleted something from their accounts that they had worked hard for and cared about.

If you want to understand why not getting a character slot is such a big deal, then think about some element of your account that you’ve worked hard to get and really care about, and think about how you would feel if it was suggested that you should have it stripped from your account and that you were acting “too entitled” if that upset you or you said it was unfair.

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

jesters.9406:

Ohoni.6057:

So if you pay for the expansion, then you are entitled to get use of the expansion without needing to pay an additional $10 on top of its sticker price to buy the character slot that will let you gain access to the new profession which is a substantial element of its advertised content.

No, you are not.

You are entitled to the ability to roll a Revenent into any character slots you may have available, just as you were able to roll any of the original eight classes into any slot you had available. You are NOT entitled to a free slot to put that character into, unless ANet says that you are.

This has been pointed out several times already, but I’ll reiterate.

Whether you like to admit it or not (or even know), Anet has set a precedence in the past of providing a character slots equivalent to the new classes they released per campaign to allow players to get the most out of the new content they’ve released….

In that precedence, was it possible to purchase character slots in those previous campaigns with in-game currencies?

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

Whatever your opinion on deleting characters to make new ones, you must remember that that is a totally subjective matter that is going to feel like a much bigger slight to some people who care about the characters they have made in different ways than you might. (For those who do some roleplay, for example, characters make up individual elements of ongoing stories about which they care deeply.)

What’s factually true, however, is that ANet promised something to players at the PAX South announcement of HoT. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLkfXwxLTs from about 16 minutes in). Within the first minutes of the announcement, Mike O’Brien had said that they did not want to produce an expansion that “invalidates all the work that you’ve put in to your existing characters” by forcing anyone to grind for higher level gear or to reach a raised level cap.

By ANet’s own words, then, spoken in the spirit of their original game manifesto, they wanted to honor the time and effort players have put into their characters thus far, even as the expansion was released. Asking anyone to delete a character in order to gain access to the expansion’s offerings obviously flies directly in the face of that.

And frankly, I think that seeing that suggestion glibly thrown around by some players is doing a tremendous amount to undermine the sense of friendliness and good will in the community—it creates bitterness and anger between us all by making it seem that some players want others to sacrifice their effort, time, and imaginative/emotional energies, while not acknowledging that they themselves would be outraged if it was suggested that they deleted something from their accounts that they had worked hard for and cared about.

If you want to understand why not getting a character slot is such a big deal, then think about some element of your account that you’ve worked hard to get and really care about, and think about how you would feel if it was suggested that you should have it stripped from your account and that you were acting “too entitled” if that upset you or you said it was unfair.

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

That’s still grinding tho. Grind for it or pay real money, it’s still having to do something additional to access core HoT content.

Pickles.9436:

Angelica Dream.7103:

+1 Great Post.
As a member since early GW1, I just feel that if Anet don’t not want to send me even a small perk as a thank you for spending (more than I am willing to admit to) for continuing, then I must really evaluate how much they really want me.
$10 discount from full package (upgrade price), and a character slot is not asking too much

Again, most people would’ve been happy with a character slot ($10). If the base game is determined to be worth $10 now, then why not give existing owners a free character? 10 = 10. Sounds fair to me. Why didn’t anyone in marketing think of this?

YES!
If the upgrade gets an extra slot that the new players does not get I am in, and will buy. I just don’t think Anet care about returning plays and lumps us in with new players.

Leo G.4501:

jesters.9406:

Ohoni.6057:

So if you pay for the expansion, then you are entitled to get use of the expansion without needing to pay an additional $10 on top of its sticker price to buy the character slot that will let you gain access to the new profession which is a substantial element of its advertised content.

No, you are not.

You are entitled to the ability to roll a Revenent into any character slots you may have available, just as you were able to roll any of the original eight classes into any slot you had available. You are NOT entitled to a free slot to put that character into, unless ANet says that you are.

This has been pointed out several times already, but I’ll reiterate.

Whether you like to admit it or not (or even know), Anet has set a precedence in the past of providing a character slots equivalent to the new classes they released per campaign to allow players to get the most out of the new content they’ve released….

In that precedence, was it possible to purchase character slots in those previous campaigns with in-game currencies?

Honestly, I don’t recall when it became possible to purchase additional GW1 slots, but I think that is circumventing the point that if Anet is totting Rev as a key feature of HoT then it would be prudent to give equal instant access to that content, as par their previous gestures.

It’s easy to say “that was then and this is now” but irrespective of that, it is not asking for the moon to say that $50 should give new and established players means to try out the new content without one group needing to pay/do more for the same content. :/

Leo G.4501:

Curious, what if Anet offered some limited time sales on character slots and inventory expansions? Do you feel that isn’t enough?

No! I want an upgrade that should be different than a full version.

At this point my entire guild (except for one person) is not buying HOT and we are merely logging in for daily reward and playing other games.

jesters.9406:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

Whatever your opinion on deleting characters to make new ones, you must remember that that is a totally subjective matter that is going to feel like a much bigger slight to some people who care about the characters they have made in different ways than you might. (For those who do some roleplay, for example, characters make up individual elements of ongoing stories about which they care deeply.)

What’s factually true, however, is that ANet promised something to players at the PAX South announcement of HoT. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLkfXwxLTs from about 16 minutes in). Within the first minutes of the announcement, Mike O’Brien had said that they did not want to produce an expansion that “invalidates all the work that you’ve put in to your existing characters” by forcing anyone to grind for higher level gear or to reach a raised level cap.

By ANet’s own words, then, spoken in the spirit of their original game manifesto, they wanted to honor the time and effort players have put into their characters thus far, even as the expansion was released. Asking anyone to delete a character in order to gain access to the expansion’s offerings obviously flies directly in the face of that.

And frankly, I think that seeing that suggestion glibly thrown around by some players is doing a tremendous amount to undermine the sense of friendliness and good will in the community—it creates bitterness and anger between us all by making it seem that some players want others to sacrifice their effort, time, and imaginative/emotional energies, while not acknowledging that they themselves would be outraged if it was suggested that they deleted something from their accounts that they had worked hard for and cared about.

If you want to understand why not getting a character slot is such a big deal, then think about some element of your account that you’ve worked hard to get and really care about, and think about how you would feel if it was suggested that you should have it stripped from your account and that you were acting “too entitled” if that upset you or you said it was unfair.

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

That’s still grinding tho. Grind for it or pay real money, it’s still having to do something additional to access core HoT content.

Posh, you’d have to do the very same thing to enjoy a Dragonhunter if you haven’t got a Guardian yet your character slots are full. The issue of HoT content being something you have to obtain through additional actions isn’t an inherent flaw. To get to the jungle, you likely need to be lvl 80 and if you’re rolling a new character, you’ll need to reach that point somehow…