Guild Wars 2

Sure :)
I am not talking about boasting though, but keep up the off-topic discussion, it is interesting!

RedCobra.7693:

Kootje.9271:

“There is no need to boast of your accomplishments and what you can do. A great man is known, he needs no introduction.”
- CherLisa Biles

i dont like this qoute as it implies that if you need an introduction then you are not a great man, little bit mean :C

And then to think i looked so hard to find a nice quote that implies the following;

If ur good and skilled u don’t have to say it about urself, ppl will know. And cut me some slack, i’m not english, so for me this wasn’t a bad pick… :P

Zelyhn.8069:

Sure
I am not talking about boasting though, but keep up the off-topic discussion, it is interesting!

U don’t see it as boasting, majority does… However boasting would imply the player is skilled. So that in it’s own would be a compliment?

Kootje.9271:

RedCobra.7693:

Kootje.9271:

“There is no need to boast of your accomplishments and what you can do. A great man is known, he needs no introduction.”
- CherLisa Biles

i dont like this qoute as it implies that if you need an introduction then you are not a great man, little bit mean :C

And then to think i looked so hard to find a nice quote that implies the following;

If ur good and skilled u don’t have to say it about urself, ppl will know. And cut me some slack, i’m not english, so for me this wasn’t a bad pick… :P

Zelyhn.8069:

Sure
I am not talking about boasting though, but keep up the off-topic discussion, it is interesting!

U don’t see it as boasting, majority does… However boasting would imply the player is skilled. So that in it’s own would be a compliment?

my bad no worries but yeah i guess youre right

Yes! Cheers to the players with ambition to achieve the unachieveable!

I think the reason why people in map chat would act negatively in that situation is because nobody gives a kitten how good a player thinks he / she is. Whether a person is the best player in the world, the best farmer in the world, or has the most legendaries, has the most kills in PVP, leads a guild of elite PVPers, or whatever, I don’t personally give a kitten .

But if that person is so insecure that they need to spend more time talking about how good they are at the game, and less time actually playing the game, nobody wants to listen to that mess. And yes, if somebody in map chat claims they’re god at the game, it’s boasting. If they say they’re good at the game, people might not react so negatively.

I have people in Ehmry who spend all day talking about what they have, what they got, what dropped for them, who they killed in PVP, how many champs they soloed, the amount of achievement points they have, and nobody really throws a fit.

But eventually people will get tired of hearing about it, and I’m definitely one of those people. I’m not the best player in the world, I’m far from the worst, too, but if you constantly tell me how kittening great you are at the game, I’m going to get annoyed at you, not your talent. Not "You’ as in OP, but a hypothetical person.

However, a lot of the “Super angry” people are probably insecure and can’t stand the thought of someone being better than them at something, or potentially beating them at something. (Even though it’s a situation that wouldn’t ever exist, like if the two never dueled, an insecure person would get upset at the sheer hypothetical possibility that should such a duel ever exist, they might be beaten, and act irrationally as a result.)

But TL;DR, I think a lot of people just don’t give a kitten how good/bad you are at the game. If you keep talking about it, people will get upset.

Sokina.8041:

But TL;DR, I think a lot of people just don’t give a kitten how good/bad you are at the game. If you keep talking about it, people will get upset.

Well, let me just say again that I am not boasting, I am not talking about how good I am in map chat or at all, and this is not a personal matter.

I am talking about the reaction of the playerbase to a statement of skill, whatever the situation.

Almost everybody here fails to see that. I have seen countless interpretations of my words, and absurd assumptions about my actions and my behaviour.

I have even been compared to Hitler.

I am starting to think that the skill frustration of the community is not its only problem!

Why would u need to make statements about how skilled u are, other than enlarging ur e-pennis? With a little imagination u know what the word should say… otherwise it would say kitten :p

Ow and I stated this in general, not against u, since u don’t boast

Communicaeition is a skill. I’m reelly good at it.

Zelyhn, I guess you did not find the level of acceptance you were expecting, be it here on the forum or in game (in regards to the statements). Perhaps just use that feedback and reflect over it instead of dismissing it. I’m not saying go with the flow – just sometimes, when everyone seems to drive the wrong direction on a one-way street, perhaps it’s really me going the wrong way.

Good luck finding more like-minded players and all the best for your guild, have fun in Tyria.

RedCobra.7693:

Scrambles.2604:

gaspara.4079:

Zelyhn.8069:

I am not talking about boasting etc, I dislike skilled players who despise average players, but I like competition, I like to dream, I like to strive to be the best (in a healthy way), I like the fun and the motivation I get from being challenged! yet people hate me for my yearnings.

Elitism is not the problem here, what is wrong is averageism !!

I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but calling people who are happy just playing and never getting better the problem is elitism. And for you to try and tell them how they should play is what is wrong.

I’m sorry if you don’t find this game challenging enough for you, but plenty of players do. If you need more challenge there are plenty of things you can do. Such as play with all whites or all greens or all rares, try a new class or a different build, try to accomplish something fairly difficult without dying or as a speed run, try to carry some of these less good players through some of the more difficult content, try to complete as many achievements as possible or find some other interesting way to handicap yourself so that you feel accomplished when you achieve something.

At the end of this game is what you make of it and trying to blame others for your grievances will only result in them pointing the finger back at you.

I’m not going to defend “elitists” but i do see a great deal of vocal players, who i guess we could call “purists.” People complain about lack of challenge, and “purists” come in crying elitism and telling you to stop complaining and enjoy the game and ignore your feelings of stagnation, or try playing with one hand tied behind your back.

IMO, the issue is with the way the content is designed (aka dungeons), all types of players will intermingle, unless you request a specific type of player through gw2lfg.com.

But since there is only one type of dungeon (exp) and no hard modes, raids, gated-content, what-have-you, the high-end, elitist players are still doing the same challenges that newer/casual players are doing. And when these players group together unknowingly, that when the issues surface.

At least in WoW, the elitists were kept seperate from everyone else, because they were focused on raids/hard-mode isntances that casuals didn’t have access, too, or couldn’t be bothered to put in that level of effort to compete at that level.

Neither style of play is wrong— but if two players are looking to get different things out of the game in the same content, you will begin to see a conflict.

This post nearly made me cry, its beautiful, neither is wrong.

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. This insight actually came from someone esle on the forums—i’ll troll through my post history and update this to credit this source. Usually, people only reply to posts when they disagree, haha…so i couldn’t tell if mine got ignored or went without saying in the first place.

All the back and forth in this thread about “stop bragging!”…yeah it’s easy to nitpick the details of the post while ignoring the bigger issue.

Zelyhn.8069:

A statement of fact, whether it is part of a discussion or not, is just a statement of fact.
Nothing has changed in this topic, well maybe the way everybody interprets what I say, but then again it is interpretation so you know…

We can close the subject. I got my answer: people cannot bear a simple statement of fact. People ask for humility that is morally unnecessary because they cannot bear the fact that people can be better. This has been stated several times in this discussion. People interpret statements, they are biased. People are inconfident and often frustrated about their skill level.

Just because you ‘state it’ does not make it a fact. Just because you believe it does not make it a fact. It makes it your opinion. Others may not agree, that is their opinion.

You may state that you are a good player, random other player takes it as a challenge and subsequently whoops your kitten. Said other player then decides that you are ‘in fact’ not a good player, because you lost. Its an opinion. Just because you lost doesn’t make you bad. Just because you claim you’re good doesn’t make it so.

I can ‘state’ that the sky is maroon all I want, it doesn’t make it a fact.

lordkrall.7241:

Because someone that is actually good have no need to shout about being good?
A good player don’t need to get confirmation from other people to know that they are good.
And people shouting about being good in chat simply looks like kittenholes.

Pretty much this the op and others in his position are insecure. The loudest are usually the weakest

Also I hate to say this because all the fan boys will pounce at me but being skilled in this game isn’t impressive at all compared to a game like starcraft 2 and other esport titles

I feel like people are getting caught up on the “shouting about how good you are,” implication. Yeah, obviously that demonstrates and incredible amount of hubris and the person saying that may not be all they’re cracked up to be.

What if instead, someone was complaining about how easy content was? I see more of that sort of chat in LA (so that’s more realistic that screaming “I AM A GOD!”), and I also see criticisms of those claims as well, even though the initial argument is more constructive and has some actual context.

I saw a lot of argument in any of the DPS meter threads—- the claim was “why do you need dps meters, if the target dies then you know your did you job.” While that’s true, binary feedback like that (click, target—target dies) does nothing to help someone who is trying to improve their skill.

Yeah, the target died, but that’s not enough…what can i do to make that target die more efficiently?

For some people, killing the target is enough, but for others (i put myself in this group) just dropping a target isn’t enough, if there is room to do it better. Some people are fine with doing it sufficiently, others strive to do it in the most optimal way.

I think that is the division between groups of players that the OP is trying to delineate.

I like the idea of “game metrics” in GW2. This includes many metrics like:

- DPS
- Damage Taken
- Self Healing
- Group Healing
- Damage Avoided

I’m sure people can add more to that list. While no set of metrics will perfectly address “am I a skilled player?” having metrics are important for self improvement.

Self improvement should be something everyone strives for (not just in-game). Metrics provide a mechanism to do such a thing.

Then we could have awesome arguments around data rather than opinions of how great we are (or are not).

Zelyhn.8069:

Well, let me just say again that I am not boasting, I am not talking about how good I am in map chat or at all, and this is not a personal matter.

I am talking about the reaction of the playerbase to a statement of skill, whatever the situation.

Almost everybody here fails to see that. I have seen countless interpretations of my words, and absurd assumptions about my actions and my behaviour.

I have even been compared to Hitler.

I am starting to think that the skill frustration of the community is not its only problem!

Since there is no quantifiable way to accurately determine one’s skill level, all you’re really saying is your opinion of your own skill level, relative, ofc, to you. The fact that he used a subjective term to classify his own skill level points to idea that, in the end, it really is quite subjective, to a degree. Sure people can say one is more skilled than the other, but to adamantly say that I’m a skilled player brings nothing to the table.

And the hostility, as countless people have said, is not to the statement of one’s skill level, but the actual saying it per se. No one is against skilled players. People are against boastful people. You don’t see people cursing their enemies when they get downed in 1v1 duels in wvw, because they respect them. But what are people against? Dancing on people’s corpses in wvw.

Downing them in 1v1 and small skirmishes = indicative of skill → nothing to get upset about.
Dancing on their corpses after a kill = indicative of one’s attitude → what the player base is against.

The problem with games like gw2 is that there are numerous facets for one to be “skilled” at in this game. And furthermore, there are no hard statistics or rubrics (yes, even in spvp) to quantify one’s skill level. You cannot say “Oh he’s of skill level 67/100, but at least he’s better than this noob who’s skill level 44/100”.

Ultimately, any statement of skill will always be an opinion, and depending on who said it and the context, can be interpreted in a variety of ways. There will never be a “factual” statement of skill in this game.

Scrambles.2604:

RedCobra.7693:

Scrambles.2604:

gaspara.4079:

Zelyhn.8069:

I am not talking about boasting etc, I dislike skilled players who despise average players, but I like competition, I like to dream, I like to strive to be the best (in a healthy way), I like the fun and the motivation I get from being challenged! yet people hate me for my yearnings.

Elitism is not the problem here, what is wrong is averageism !!

I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but calling people who are happy just playing and never getting better the problem is elitism. And for you to try and tell them how they should play is what is wrong.

I’m sorry if you don’t find this game challenging enough for you, but plenty of players do. If you need more challenge there are plenty of things you can do. Such as play with all whites or all greens or all rares, try a new class or a different build, try to accomplish something fairly difficult without dying or as a speed run, try to carry some of these less good players through some of the more difficult content, try to complete as many achievements as possible or find some other interesting way to handicap yourself so that you feel accomplished when you achieve something.

At the end of this game is what you make of it and trying to blame others for your grievances will only result in them pointing the finger back at you.

I’m not going to defend “elitists” but i do see a great deal of vocal players, who i guess we could call “purists.” People complain about lack of challenge, and “purists” come in crying elitism and telling you to stop complaining and enjoy the game and ignore your feelings of stagnation, or try playing with one hand tied behind your back.

IMO, the issue is with the way the content is designed (aka dungeons), all types of players will intermingle, unless you request a specific type of player through gw2lfg.com.

But since there is only one type of dungeon (exp) and no hard modes, raids, gated-content, what-have-you, the high-end, elitist players are still doing the same challenges that newer/casual players are doing. And when these players group together unknowingly, that when the issues surface.

At least in WoW, the elitists were kept seperate from everyone else, because they were focused on raids/hard-mode isntances that casuals didn’t have access, too, or couldn’t be bothered to put in that level of effort to compete at that level.

Neither style of play is wrong— but if two players are looking to get different things out of the game in the same content, you will begin to see a conflict.

This post nearly made me cry, its beautiful, neither is wrong.

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. This insight actually came from someone esle on the forums—i’ll troll through my post history and update this to credit this source. Usually, people only reply to posts when they disagree, haha…so i couldn’t tell if mine got ignored or went without saying in the first place.

All the back and forth in this thread about “stop bragging!”…yeah it’s easy to nitpick the details of the post while ignoring the bigger issue.

pretty much this^

I like to bragg, not necassarily to people i dont know but to my friends and guildies who also play the game are like minded, they see my bragging as a challenge :P i have a few guildies who dont do the same and dont revel in competion i understand this and dont address them with such comments as i know they arent going to like it, but it comes with the role of being a guild leader i need to ensure that we are all friends, the problem with saying it in map chat is you address every single person possible.

juno.1840:

I like the idea of “game metrics” in GW2. This includes many metrics like:

- DPS
- Damage Taken
- Self Healing
- Group Healing
- Damage Avoided

I’m sure people can add more to that list. While no set of metrics will perfectly address “am I a skilled player?” having metrics are important for self improvement.

Self improvement should be something everyone strives for (not just in-game). Metrics provide a mechanism to do such a thing.

Then we could have awesome arguments around data rather than opinions of how great we are (or are not).

I don’t know if you’ve heard, but adding metrics feedback to the game creates a fascist-state where the best players look down from their mighty thrones, with their best-in-slot items and most optimal builds, that fundamentally alters the ability of the filthy proletariat to play the game they want to.

Only they have the ability to form guilds and dungeon groups. With their all-mighty “drive” to beat the game as best as possible, it infringes on other players contentment. Once an ideal DPS has been established, it creates a barrier where you need an arbitrary amount of “that number” to compete with these demi-gods of the meta-game. And once a rigid “floor of ability (aka your minimal required dps)” has been established, everyone is expected to be held to these standards, and if you do not comply, you might as well uninstall the game.

But lets not try to derail this thread with a dps meter argument. That wasn’t what i intended when i mentioned it, lol.

juno.1840:

I like the idea of “game metrics” in GW2. This includes many metrics like:

- DPS
- Damage Taken
- Self Healing
- Group Healing
- Damage Avoided

I’m sure people can add more to that list. While no set of metrics will perfectly address “am I a skilled player?” having metrics are important for self improvement.

Self improvement should be something everyone strives for (not just in-game). Metrics provide a mechanism to do such a thing.

Then we could have awesome arguments around data rather than opinions of how great we are (or are not).

That suggestion is actually just as bad as adding “gearscore” to this game.
GW2 is almost free of “dungeon elitism” (except the occasional “zerker warrior” group for CoF path 1), please don’t add systems that will increase that kind of behavior.
GW2 doesn’t need that kind of crap. Those addicted to all kind of meters already have a ton of MMORPGs to play, keep this one free of them.
(this comes from a hardcore raider in WoW, by the way)

Just to add a few more of my own cents, since I find these kind of topics quite interesting (and entertaining).

As we all know, there are a lot of different playstyles that collide in a massive multiplayer game. Some people actively seek challenge, others want the game to actively challenge them, some want their achievements seen by others, and some will even downplay their own achievements to catch their opponent off guard.

The last part of that is one of the more interesting things. People who claim to have great skill are constantly challenged. However, the inverse is simply accepted. Meaning, if someone says they are a horrible player, no one challenges that. This leads me to believe that a large part of it is tied to self worth on all sides of the equation.

One who brags about skill is also one who likely converses about how easy everything is. It may seem obvious, but the implications are a bit more complex. It indicates a playstyle, as I have said a few times now, that is not interested in real challenge (i.e. “tying your hands behind your back” is considered laughable) but in playing a game that satisfies the need to feel legendary. In my opinion, this is a completely acceptable play style. Though, I think it would be beneficial to many to clarify this for themselves, as the claim is always that they are seeking more challenging content (which may not necessarily be the case). By understanding our own goals in our games, we can start to really pursue them as well as find the games that fit our needs best.

The issue comes in when trying to “convert” others, and that goes for any playstyle and just life in general. What is “correct” for one may not be “correct” for another.

I would strongly suggest though, to those who really are looking for challenge and not emotional ROI, that this can be created for yourself in a myriad of ways. While this playstyle is not fitting for some, others will find great satisfaction in it that might not be pursued for various different reasons. The reason I mention this repeatedly is it is easy to see someone with a similar playstyle, and apply it to our own. However, the end result is more pertinent. If you are looking for emotional verification from a game, then making everything as easy as possible is probably the best way to go. However, if one is actually looking for challenge, then that can be found very, very easily with a bit of work on our part. I think the issue is that it is a similar playstyle, but with two different goals and this means the lines frequently become crossed which leads to a bit of confusion.

Elitism is not a play style, imo, but a mind set. Generally, I find it to be a negative one though it can be used effectively to get inside someones head.

marnick.4305:

Zindrix.1750:

Zelyhn.8069:

Castaliea.3156:

Zelyhn.8069:

Are you all seriously assuming that I shout about my skill level in LA ? Even if I said I don’t? You people are what is wrong: you jump on the assumptions that I am an elitist, an arrogant person etc. In fact I can understand: you may have had such bad experiences with people like who you think I am in the past that as soon as you see something that could be a sign of their presence you jump in for the kill.

Maybe that explains my problems.

ProxyDamage has put it in words for you:
The key word is “statement of fact”

ProxyDamage.9826:

lordkrall.7241:

Because someone that is actually good have no need to shout about being good?

What if it is relevant to the conversation? What if it merely a statement, part of a discussion? You’re right that most good players don’t usually mention they’re good, but sometimes it’s relevant, at which point it’s merely a statement of fact. And why do you care? If you don’t believe it to be true, why does it upset you? I doubt you go around the street correcting everyone who says something you believe to be untrue, especially if it’s not an objectively easy answer.

This entire comment is again, completely different than the original situation.
Now it’s “part of a existing conversation” instead of just a randomly self proclaimed statement of fact? God why can’t this post die. The story keep changing, the arguments are completely irrelevant… god just let it end.

A statement of fact, whether it is part of a discussion or not, is just a statement of fact.
Nothing has changed in this topic, well maybe the way everybody interprets what I say, but then again it is interpretation so you know…

We can close the subject. I got my answer: people cannot bear a simple statement of fact. People ask for humility that is morally unnecessary because they cannot bear the fact that people can be better. This has been stated several times in this discussion. People interpret statements, they are biased. People are inconfident and often frustrated about their skill level.

Didn’t there used to be a German leader in the past who thought this way?

That’s not a valid argument. You just invoked Godwin’s law and therefor lost the discussion.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Too bad I don’t believe in Godwin’s Law.

Zindrix.1750:

marnick.4305:

Zindrix.1750:

Zelyhn.8069:

Castaliea.3156:

Zelyhn.8069:

Are you all seriously assuming that I shout about my skill level in LA ? Even if I said I don’t? You people are what is wrong: you jump on the assumptions that I am an elitist, an arrogant person etc. In fact I can understand: you may have had such bad experiences with people like who you think I am in the past that as soon as you see something that could be a sign of their presence you jump in for the kill.

Maybe that explains my problems.

ProxyDamage has put it in words for you:
The key word is “statement of fact”

ProxyDamage.9826:

lordkrall.7241:

Because someone that is actually good have no need to shout about being good?

What if it is relevant to the conversation? What if it merely a statement, part of a discussion? You’re right that most good players don’t usually mention they’re good, but sometimes it’s relevant, at which point it’s merely a statement of fact. And why do you care? If you don’t believe it to be true, why does it upset you? I doubt you go around the street correcting everyone who says something you believe to be untrue, especially if it’s not an objectively easy answer.

This entire comment is again, completely different than the original situation.
Now it’s “part of a existing conversation” instead of just a randomly self proclaimed statement of fact? God why can’t this post die. The story keep changing, the arguments are completely irrelevant… god just let it end.

A statement of fact, whether it is part of a discussion or not, is just a statement of fact.
Nothing has changed in this topic, well maybe the way everybody interprets what I say, but then again it is interpretation so you know…

We can close the subject. I got my answer: people cannot bear a simple statement of fact. People ask for humility that is morally unnecessary because they cannot bear the fact that people can be better. This has been stated several times in this discussion. People interpret statements, they are biased. People are inconfident and often frustrated about their skill level.

Didn’t there used to be a German leader in the past who thought this way?

That’s not a valid argument. You just invoked Godwin’s law and therefor lost the discussion.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Too bad I don’t believe in Godwin’s Law.

LOL did you actually read that link? It’s actually amusing because I think it’s trying to be serious. What a crock. Some dude trying to sound smart because he lost an argument on the internet is what it says for you TL;DR people.

Tuluum.9638:

Just to add a few more of my own cents, since I find these kind of topics quite interesting (and entertaining).

As we all know, there are a lot of different playstyles that collide in a massive multiplayer game. Some people actively seek challenge, others want the game to actively challenge them, some want their achievements seen by others, and some will even downplay their own achievements to catch their opponent off guard.

The last part of that is one of the more interesting things. People who claim to have great skill are constantly challenged. However, the inverse is simply accepted. Meaning, if someone says they are a horrible player, no one challenges that. This leads me to believe that a large part of it is tied to self worth on all sides of the equation.

One who brags about skill is also one who likely converses about how easy everything is. It may seem obvious, but the implications are a bit more complex. It indicates a playstyle, as I have said a few times now, that is not interested in real challenge (i.e. “tying your hands behind your back” is considered laughable) but in playing a game that satisfies the need to feel legendary. In my opinion, this is a completely acceptable play style. The issue comes in when trying to “convert” others, and that goes for any playstyle and just life in general. What is “correct” for one may not be “correct” for another.

I would strongly suggest though, to those who really are looking for challenge and not emotional ROI, that this can be created for yourself in a myriad of ways. While this playstyle is not fitting for some, others will find great satisfaction in it that might not be pursued for various different reasons. The reason I mention this repeatedly is it is easy to see someone with a similar playstyle, and apply it to our own. However, the end result is more pertinent. If you are looking for emotional verification from a game, then making everything as easy as possible is probably the best way to go. However, if one is actually looking for challenge, then that can be found very, very easily with a bit of work on our part. I think the issue is that it is a similar playstyle, but with two different goals and this means the lines frequently become crossed which leads to a bit of confusion.

Elitism is not a play style, imo, but a mind set. Generally, I find it to be a negative one though it can be used effectively to get inside someones head.

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

Zelyhn.8069:

More and more I am experiencing this habit that the community has to despise people who claim to be skilled for this game.

Zelyhn.8069:

community has to despise people who claim to be skilled for this game.

Zelyhn.8069:

claim to be skilled

Zelyhn.8069:

CLAIM

Why the hate? Because, like many others on the forums, I have met few people who CLAIM to be skilled and actually are. So the second I hear someone say “I’m a really good player” or something else alluding to how awesome and amazing they are, I imaging a clicker to who turns using a and d

Tuluum.9638:

I would strongly suggest though, to those who really are looking for challenge and not emotional ROI, that this can be created for yourself in a myriad of ways.

Good point.

For instance, I made it to 80 on a character with 0 deaths, and also without using the auction house, any crafting (crafting gives easy XP, would be “cheating”), or any crafted item, only self reliant using drops and karma items. The idea came from a guildie based on “Iron Man”.
That’s an interesting challenge. Try it. If you die, you must delete the character and start over at level 1.

Korrigan.4837:

Tuluum.9638:

I would strongly suggest though, to those who really are looking for challenge and not emotional ROI, that this can be created for yourself in a myriad of ways.

Good point.

For instance, I made it to 80 on a character with 0 deaths, and also without using the auction house, any crafting (crafting gives easy XP, would be “cheating”), or any crafted item, only self reliant using drops and karma items. The idea came from a guildie based on “Iron Man”.
That’s an interesting challenge. Try it. If you die, you must delete the character and start over at level 1.

I do an Iron Man challenge on Pokemon (yes I still play those games and have since the originals even though I’m older now heh) 3 Pokemon only, if one faints he is dead forever and you have to release it and get another Pokemon. If all them get knocked out, you die and restart from the beginning.

May try this on GW2, might be fun!

Korrigan.4837:

Good point.

For instance, I made it to 80 on a character with 0 deaths, and also without using the auction house, any crafting (crafting gives easy XP, would be “cheating”), or any crafted item, only self reliant using drops and karma items. The idea came from a guildie based on “Iron Man”.
That’s an interesting challenge. Try it. If you die, you must delete the character and start over at level 1.

Exactly!

My entire point is that most who talk about talent, or ease of play, also trend towards playing the game in the easiest way possible.

While this is perfectly fine for those who are looking for that exact experience, I have found others that get pulled into it who are actually looking for a different experience. On the surface, the playstyles seem the same, but the goal of the playstyles differ. When we find exactly what we are trying to “accomplish” with the games we play, I found that we get a lot more satisfaction out of it. Making the distinction between the two different goals may lead some to having a much, much more satisfying experience in any game they play.

It was my exact experience, and once I figured it out, I am able to find the experience and goals I look towards in pretty much any game I play. It also puts the control in my hands, so the only real limitation is my own lack of imagination.

RedCobra.7693:

ricky markham.8173:

Korrigan.4837:

RedCobra.7693:

Korrigan.4837:

I have to agree with the people who say that advertising a guild on general chat and asking for “skilled players” is a recipe for disaster, a good way to end with not only bad players but also a lot of kids with overinflated ego.

Personally, in my guild, we only take people who are pleasant to play with, even if they aren’t “zomg top skillz!”.

i personally dont keep people in my guild who are bad at the game and choose to stay that way, its simply the way my guild is, if someone is lacking i will put all my effort into helping them and finding out what they struggle with, im an elitist but i like to think that im one of the good examples, i plan on turning the guild into a WvW guild so i need everyone to be average in it, if not then i will help them, if i know they are going to try i will help, i dont help the people who want a free ride :P

but yeah i aggre with you, its people who advertise like that who are lazy and give “elitists” a VERY bad name.

Well I’m glad I’m not in your guild. I guess I don’t take video games seriously enough to behave like that towards fellow players, and even less towards fellow guild mates. And yet we don’t have any trouble tackling any of the content of the game, including WvW.

As I said, I rather be surrounded by pleasant people even if they aren’t the best players ever than by “skilled” ones who take games way too seriously and are not pleasant to play with. I play games to relax, not to manage a second job as guild leader to lead a sort of pseudo military organization in a game after I’m done with my real job.

When I remove someone from my guild (happened once so far since release, we have a good recruitment policy), it’s because he behaved badly and broke our few guild rules which mostly say “be nice”. Never because he’s less skilled than others. I’d hate myself if I ever did that.

i totally agree im glad im not in his guild and for the casualness of my guild makes me want to play more. it funny how the skill of a few can make a dungeon run faster then a group of 5 who supposably are skilled. happened the first time i ever did cof with guild mates. three of us didnt have a clue and followed. the mates commented how it was the quickest run they ever did and found out after several runs later they were right. i prefer a more social guild. as for advertizing doesnt a more casual guild advertize that not you must be fun top play with they state they are relaxed and casual

i believe from the comments youve made, you havnt read the whole post, did i at one point say that i have kicked anyone??? no so dont assume, it is my philosophy though, i have put so much effort to help the people in my guild, like i said i teach and introduce them to each aspect, i said i need them to be average, and at what point did i say that it was a military organisation xD im making it a WvW guild, but when it comes down to it, i want to have fun, its a little disrespectful even for the forums to say what you just did :S

you stated in your quote you dont keep people who dont get better. that sounds like to me you kick people who dont get better. now you state you keep this guy who doesnt get better gear. im sorry but dont make one comment then go back with another. im stating i dont care if people get better as long as i get along with them and have fun.

ricky markham.8173:

RedCobra.7693:

ricky markham.8173:

Korrigan.4837:

RedCobra.7693:

Korrigan.4837:

I have to agree with the people who say that advertising a guild on general chat and asking for “skilled players” is a recipe for disaster, a good way to end with not only bad players but also a lot of kids with overinflated ego.

Personally, in my guild, we only take people who are pleasant to play with, even if they aren’t “zomg top skillz!”.

i personally dont keep people in my guild who are bad at the game and choose to stay that way, its simply the way my guild is, if someone is lacking i will put all my effort into helping them and finding out what they struggle with, im an elitist but i like to think that im one of the good examples, i plan on turning the guild into a WvW guild so i need everyone to be average in it, if not then i will help them, if i know they are going to try i will help, i dont help the people who want a free ride :P

but yeah i aggre with you, its people who advertise like that who are lazy and give “elitists” a VERY bad name.

Well I’m glad I’m not in your guild. I guess I don’t take video games seriously enough to behave like that towards fellow players, and even less towards fellow guild mates. And yet we don’t have any trouble tackling any of the content of the game, including WvW.

As I said, I rather be surrounded by pleasant people even if they aren’t the best players ever than by “skilled” ones who take games way too seriously and are not pleasant to play with. I play games to relax, not to manage a second job as guild leader to lead a sort of pseudo military organization in a game after I’m done with my real job.

When I remove someone from my guild (happened once so far since release, we have a good recruitment policy), it’s because he behaved badly and broke our few guild rules which mostly say “be nice”. Never because he’s less skilled than others. I’d hate myself if I ever did that.

i totally agree im glad im not in his guild and for the casualness of my guild makes me want to play more. it funny how the skill of a few can make a dungeon run faster then a group of 5 who supposably are skilled. happened the first time i ever did cof with guild mates. three of us didnt have a clue and followed. the mates commented how it was the quickest run they ever did and found out after several runs later they were right. i prefer a more social guild. as for advertizing doesnt a more casual guild advertize that not you must be fun top play with they state they are relaxed and casual

i believe from the comments youve made, you havnt read the whole post, did i at one point say that i have kicked anyone??? no so dont assume, it is my philosophy though, i have put so much effort to help the people in my guild, like i said i teach and introduce them to each aspect, i said i need them to be average, and at what point did i say that it was a military organisation xD im making it a WvW guild, but when it comes down to it, i want to have fun, its a little disrespectful even for the forums to say what you just did :S

you stated in your quote you dont keep people who dont get better. that sounds like to me you kick people who dont get better. now you state you keep this guy who doesnt get better gear. im sorry but dont make one comment then go back with another. im stating i dont care if people get better as long as i get along with them and have fun.

You can get better (as a player) without getting better gear. After all, if you can do all the content…..naked…..without dying (for example), what’s gear going to do for you? Not much….

Just sayin…

as for the original not all people hate people who proclaim they are great.if i recall terrell owens(football us for those who dont know him) stated he was pretty awesome at one point. there has been several in other sports who have done the same thing. just because they proclaim they are great doesnt make me hate them. i admire them for their skill and i admire those who say nothing but let their skill do the walking. i dont think proclaiming your good makes any difference. if your good people will admire you

I see the real discussion is finally picking up!
Whether you agree or diagree with me I really appreciate your constructive inputs, thanks :)

Zelyhn.8069:

More and more I am experiencing this habit that the community has to despise people who claim to be skilled for this game.

Try it: go to LA, and say that you are a good player.
(Note: I am not saying I do it. This sentence is for rhetorical purposes)

People will instantly tell you that you lack humility, that you are an elitist, that you are despicable etc; for no reason.

People do not want to see or be aware of the fact that some players can be more skilled than them (no boasting, just statement of skill). The community seem to believe that they would be better off without such players.
It appears as if the community would like to stay bad and play only with bad people.

It is also the same on the forums.

I believe this is not benefiting the game in itself because it promotes stale and boring gameplay additions rather than diverse and challenging content.

As a comparison: when you play football as an amateur you play it for fun and you dream of being as skilled as the players of international level. In GW2 the ’amateurs" have no such dreams, worse: they do not want to face the fact that being better is possible.

With all due respect, why the discrimination?

Dude, thats because 90% of the people in LA spend 95% of their time in-game on the bank steps.
They have 0 skill in-game what do you care what any of them say, blow that kitten off.

You can get better (as a player) without getting better gear. After all, if you can do all the content…..naked…..without dying (for example), what’s gear going to do for you? Not much….

Just sayin…

i totally agree

Being skilled is good, I thrive to better myself, like most. A particularly skilled player, I will admire, not like I’d admire a Gandhi or Einstein, this is just a videogame, but someone who’s really good inspires me and I’d naturally congratulate them.

Now, some dude comes into Lion’s Arch and shouts in map chat that he’s got the mad skillz, I’ll join the chorus of people bashing on his pathetic kitten. And that is not hating on talent, that’s hating on idiocy and the lowest form of attention kittening.

Im gonna go out on a limb and say thakittens not a hatred for skill, its your approach to communicating thats the issue.

That and this is the internet

Tuluum.9638:

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”

For me i consider “elitism” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.

So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.

Being an elitist in a game is defined as having an above average skill and wanting to play only with people of equivalent skill.

Scrambles.2604:

Tuluum.9638:

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”

For me i consider being “elitist” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.

So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

Zelyhn.8069:

Being an elitist in a game is defined as having an above average skill and wanting to play only with people of equivalent skill.

My perspective on “elitism” comes mostly from vanilla WoW, where all the major theorycrafting and end-game strategic optimization was done by a guild called the “Elitist Jerks.” So, when i think of elitism, i think of in-depth min-maxing and best strats for encounters, etc.

If i were looking to play the best, efficient way possible, in a team-setting, then it would probably go without saying i would be happiest among like-minded players, who are also trying to optimize their gameplay.

So playing with people of equal skill could be a characteristic of “elitism” and i don’t see why that is a bad thing.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Tuluum.9638:

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads ;)

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”

For me i consider being “elitist” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.

So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

These are not the definitions of either word :)

Zelyhn.8069:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Tuluum.9638:

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”

For me i consider being “elitist” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.

So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

These are not the definitions of either word

They are not the dictionary definitions, no. However, he asked ‘how do you define’ which asks for how I personally define the term. Not how someone else defines the term. Thus why I started it with ‘IMO’

Scrambles.2604:

Zelyhn.8069:

Being an elitist in a game is defined as having an above average skill and wanting to play only with people of equivalent skill.

My perspective on “elitism” comes mostly from vanilla WoW, where all the major theorycrafting and end-game strategic optimization was done by a guild called the “Elitist Jerks.” So, when i think of elitism, i think of in-depth min-maxing and best strats for encounters, etc.

If i were looking to play the best, efficient way possible, in a team-setting, then it would probably go without saying i would be happiest among like-minded players, who are also trying to optimize their gameplay.

So playing with people of equal skill could be a characteristic of “elitism” and i don’t see why that is a bad thing.

It’s only a bad thing if you are being a jerk about it.
It is also true that in my experience it is the most skilled people who are the least respectful to average players because of their high expectations.

Elitist Jerks forums were actually elitist: you could only become a contributor if you were approved by other highly skilled theorycrafters!

Zelyhn.8069:

More and more I am experiencing this habit that the community has to despise people who claim to be skilled for this game.

Try it: go to LA, and say that you are a good player.
(Note: I am not saying I do it. This sentence is for rhetorical purposes)

People will instantly tell you that you lack humility, that you are an elitist, that you are despicable etc; for no reason.

People do not want to see or be aware of the fact that some players can be more skilled than them (no boasting, just statement of skill). The community seem to believe that they would be better off without such players.
It appears as if the community would like to stay bad and play only with bad people.

It is also the same on the forums.

I believe this is not benefiting the game in itself because it promotes stale and boring gameplay additions rather than diverse and challenging content.

As a comparison: when you play football as an amateur you play it for fun and you dream of being as skilled as the players of international level. In GW2 the ’amateurs" have no such dreams, worse: they do not want to face the fact that being better is possible.

With all due respect, why the discrimination?

Do this: Go to the middle of NYC and scream about how you’re the best at Guild Wars 2. See what kind of a reaction you get.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Tuluum.9638:

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”

For me i consider being “elitist” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.

So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

Again, i don’t want to meta-argue semantics, but shouldn’t your definition of “elitist” at least in some way resemble the definition of “elite?” I know we’re just talking about our opinions but both words are from the same root and your definition of “elitist” doesn’t really include any characteristics of what you think of as “elite.” More so, your definition just includes “things you don’t like.”

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Zelyhn.8069:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Tuluum.9638:

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”

For me i consider being “elitist” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.

So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

These are not the definitions of either word

They are not the dictionary definitions, no. However, he asked ‘how do you define’ which asks for how I personally define the term. Not how someone else defines the term. Thus why I started it with ‘IMO’

You are being too literal. Also a definition is quite far from an opinion!

Zelyhn.8069:

Scrambles.2604:

Zelyhn.8069:

Being an elitist in a game is defined as having an above average skill and wanting to play only with people of equivalent skill.

My perspective on “elitism” comes mostly from vanilla WoW, where all the major theorycrafting and end-game strategic optimization was done by a guild called the “Elitist Jerks.” So, when i think of elitism, i think of in-depth min-maxing and best strats for encounters, etc.

If i were looking to play the best, efficient way possible, in a team-setting, then it would probably go without saying i would be happiest among like-minded players, who are also trying to optimize their gameplay.

So playing with people of equal skill could be a characteristic of “elitism” and i don’t see why that is a bad thing.

It’s only a bad thing if you are being a jerk about it.
It is also true that in my experience it is the most skilled people who are the least respectful to average players because of their high expectations.

Elitist Jerks forums were actually elitist: you could only become a contributor if you were approved by other highly skilled theorycrafters!

Well, it was their guild forums, but it was a great source for in-depth, detailed information about gameplay and builds. If i were EJ, I wouldn’t have wanted me posting on those forums either, haha.

So, the issue isn’t necessarily with players that try to be good at the game. The issue is that people have associated “bad manners” with “trying to be good at the game” and decided to start calling it “elitism.”

I guess it is my goal to advocate against this negative stereotype. It’s because of negative associations like these that exist, that “Elite” players, like myself, will never get access to useful tools, like Combat metrics/combat log parsing, Inspect features, etc, because people are so afraid of “bad mannered” players using them.

Scrambles.2604:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Tuluum.9638:

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”

For me i consider being “elitist” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.

So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

Again, i don’t want to meta-argue semantics, but shouldn’t your definition of “elitist” at least in some way resemble the definition of “elite?” I know we’re just talking about our opinions but both words are from the same root and your definition of “elitist” doesn’t really include any characteristics of what you think of as “elite.” More so, your definition just includes “things you don’t like.”

Not necessarily, but like you said, don’t want to argue semantics here.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Tuluum.9638:

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”

For me i consider being “elitist” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.

So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

Again, i don’t want to meta-argue semantics, but shouldn’t your definition of “elitist” at least in some way resemble the definition of “elite?” I know we’re just talking about our opinions but both words are from the same root and your definition of “elitist” doesn’t really include any characteristics of what you think of as “elite.” More so, your definition just includes “things you don’t like.”

Not necessarily, but like you said, don’t want to argue semantics here.

IMO-

Good player – nice to each other, beneficial to the community, lend a hand when needed.

Gooder players – the worst scum you could ever imagine. Rude to everyone they encounter. i saw one eat a baby once.

Yes, to be fair you can give something whatever definition you want. Just try to avoid injected one’s personal bias for the more accurate definition.

Scrambles.2604:

Zelyhn.8069:

Scrambles.2604:

Zelyhn.8069:

Being an elitist in a game is defined as having an above average skill and wanting to play only with people of equivalent skill.

My perspective on “elitism” comes mostly from vanilla WoW, where all the major theorycrafting and end-game strategic optimization was done by a guild called the “Elitist Jerks.” So, when i think of elitism, i think of in-depth min-maxing and best strats for encounters, etc.

If i were looking to play the best, efficient way possible, in a team-setting, then it would probably go without saying i would be happiest among like-minded players, who are also trying to optimize their gameplay.

So playing with people of equal skill could be a characteristic of “elitism” and i don’t see why that is a bad thing.

It’s only a bad thing if you are being a jerk about it.
It is also true that in my experience it is the most skilled people who are the least respectful to average players because of their high expectations.

Elitist Jerks forums were actually elitist: you could only become a contributor if you were approved by other highly skilled theorycrafters!

Well, it was their guild forums, but it was a great source for in-depth, detailed information about gameplay and builds. If i were EJ, I wouldn’t have wanted me posting on those forums either, haha.

So, the issue isn’t necessarily with players that try to be good at the game. The issue is that people have associated “bad manners” with “trying to be good at the game” and decided to start calling it “elitism.”

I guess it is my goal to advocate against this negative stereotype. It’s because of negative associations like these that exist, that “Elite” players, like myself, will never get access to useful tools, like Combat metrics/combat log parsing, Inspect features, etc, because people are so afraid of “bad mannered” players using them.

My friend, I couldn’t agree more!!!
And this leads me to my OP: due to the negative connotations of the word Elitist, or anything related to the will to perform better, it has become terribly difficult to find fellow “elite” players to party with!

As for metrics, I have resorted to asking my zerker warrior (arguably the highest dps) friends to count in how many auto attacks they can kill a training mannequin (no condi, no crit) and with this data you can make a spreadsheet to benchmark your damage output.
I have this spreadsheet and I would be glad to share it with who ever is interested.
It’s about time some decent TC is produced for this game!
There are quite some people on these forums who run tests and think a lot, I would be so glad to see a TC community growing! This way when actually challenging contrnt is released we will be prepared to face it! Also it is undeniable that making such information public would benefit the entire playerbase, which would then lead to more knowledgable people willing to face more difficult content and dive into the depth of the game! Wait maybe i am just dreaming a bit haha :)

Zelyhn.8069:

Scrambles.2604:

Zelyhn.8069:

Scrambles.2604:

Zelyhn.8069:

Being an elitist in a game is defined as having an above average skill and wanting to play only with people of equivalent skill.

My perspective on “elitism” comes mostly from vanilla WoW, where all the major theorycrafting and end-game strategic optimization was done by a guild called the “Elitist Jerks.” So, when i think of elitism, i think of in-depth min-maxing and best strats for encounters, etc.

If i were looking to play the best, efficient way possible, in a team-setting, then it would probably go without saying i would be happiest among like-minded players, who are also trying to optimize their gameplay.

So playing with people of equal skill could be a characteristic of “elitism” and i don’t see why that is a bad thing.

It’s only a bad thing if you are being a jerk about it.
It is also true that in my experience it is the most skilled people who are the least respectful to average players because of their high expectations.

Elitist Jerks forums were actually elitist: you could only become a contributor if you were approved by other highly skilled theorycrafters!

Well, it was their guild forums, but it was a great source for in-depth, detailed information about gameplay and builds. If i were EJ, I wouldn’t have wanted me posting on those forums either, haha.

So, the issue isn’t necessarily with players that try to be good at the game. The issue is that people have associated “bad manners” with “trying to be good at the game” and decided to start calling it “elitism.”

I guess it is my goal to advocate against this negative stereotype. It’s because of negative associations like these that exist, that “Elite” players, like myself, will never get access to useful tools, like Combat metrics/combat log parsing, Inspect features, etc, because people are so afraid of “bad mannered” players using them.

My friend, I couldn’t agree more!!!
And this leads me to my OP: due to the negative connotations of the word Elitist, or anything related to the will to perform better, it has become terribly difficult to find fellow “elite” players to party with!

As for metrics, I have resorted to asking my zerker warrior (arguably the highest dps) friends to count in how many auto attacks they can kill a training mannequin (no condi, no crit) and with this data you can make a spreadsheet to benchmark your damage output.
I have this spreadsheet and I would be glad to share it with who ever is interested.
It’s about time some decent TC is produced for this game!
There are quite some people on these forums who run tests and think a lot, I would be so glad to see a TC community growing! This way when actually challenging contrnt is released we will be prepared to face it! Also it is undeniable that making such information public would benefit the entire playerbase, which would then lead to more knowledgable people willing to face more difficult content and dive into the depth of the game! Wait maybe i am just dreaming a bit haha

The problem is, where you think in-depth theorycrafting will benefit the player base, there is a vocal population that thinks in-depth theorycrafting will change the game and force them to play at the highest standards. Or that theorycrafting is pointless because there are no unbeatable encounters where figuring out the optimal strategy is integral to beating the encounter.

Of course, i don’t agree with this, because no one can force you to play a certain way without usurping your keyboard or remoting onto your computer. And just because you kill a boss doesn’t mean you can’t do it again, better.

This game tends to cater to the “everyone is a winner” crowd, so i don’t imagine any sort of in-depth combat metrics will ever be added. At this point, I would even be happy if they just did what SWTOR did, which was add a way to parse your combat log through third-party programs.

lordkrall.7241:

Because someone that is actually good have no need to shout about being good?
A good player don’t need to get confirmation from other people to know that they are good.
And people shouting about being good in chat simply looks like kittenholes.

LOL, seriously, this thread could have been closed after this replay. It sums it up just perfectly.