Guild Wars 2

I recently switched to a glass canon build Sword/Pistol Thief build. The dungeons I have run with no control (tank) players I would say my damage was about halved due to mechanics that kept me out of melee range. With a control (tank) class I can easily double my melee uptime. In essence a tanky type player can not only add their damage to the mix, but add a LOT more for the other players.

This is true for boss encounters, but not necessarily true for trash pulls, that can be easily burned down by 5 DPS Glass Canons in seconds most of the time.

I have yet to group with a designated Elementalist healer, but due to the nature of the game if you can not control where a mob is and you have 4 DPS classes flying all over the place, chances are 50-70% of the time they will be out of range of said Elementalists heals.

if you cant tank the majority of mobs and bosses in this game your doing it wrong, I do it with a 10/0/20/30/10 build, while constantly healing my party and removing conditions with shouts, and still managing up to 15k crits if I choose to use a greatsword. Most mobs aggro is based on toughness damage and range.

Don’t just pick one part of the trinity

tis true there isn’t a tank/heal system like other games however one can put together a mighty nice cond heal set and it might not be top dps or a glass canon build (which i laugh at those who do that because they die the most in dungeons or anything else for that matter) they do just fine.

I’m in Orr as a healy engi and i can have four-five of those kittens beating on me at once and live now without blinking. It’s great! (I don’t even have the full set yet some of them are rares). So glad they did whatever they did to it to make it work again.

It may also be worth mentioning that the “Holy Trinity” that ANet said was no longer needed was replaced with another Holy Trinity: Damage/Support/Control.

They simply changed the names and put some polish on combat … Dont get me wrong, it works well, but saying “HOLY TRINITY IS DEAD” is just ignorant.

Just because you may have run across some poor players that claimed to be a “tank” or a “healer” does not mean that those types of builds are useless.

There CAN be a holy trinity, it mainly relies on the build of the “tank”

I heard of theories that the more armor you have, the more hate/aggro you generate.

As soon as I started to have around 3000 armor as Guardian in dungeons, a lot of bosses are glued to me. I’m not doing much damage compared to the glass cannons, but bosses are still stuck on me.

And I DO NOT drop easily, I’m maxed out for damage mitigation and condition removal. So I do fairly well tanking.

A healer can be several classes, Ele would probably fit best. And every class can be a dps build.

So, imo, there can be a holy trinity.

I think those that are doing the holy trinty that most other mmos go by zerged past that info on the quest to level and be fastest and the first 80 of that profession and race then they forgot about all the content they zerged past so they could keep up with the gear grind …. maybe we ought to go to the whole trinty style to help them out

Just because there’s no “holy trinity” doesn’t mean that you are unable to play a niche role. Try playing a pure defense/survival/tank guardian in WvW and laugh as you easily stall a 20 man zerg for a good 3-5 minutes before they learn to ignore you. Try playing a pure support elementalist in the same situation and again laugh as you not only hold them off but heal your allies.

These roles still exist. They just aren’t important or as useful as the standard hybrid player builds are.

They did indeed remove the “holy trinity”, trouble is they replaced it with just one class….DPS…..anything else and you are just fooling yourself….healing ele’s are a waste of a slot, “tanks” are absolutely worthless as they cannot hold aggro.

This game is solely about DPS and how much you can inflict that DPS on mobs.

Robbyx.1284:

They did indeed remove the “holy trinity”, trouble is they replaced it with just one class….DPS…..anything else and you are just fooling yourself….healing ele’s are a waste of a slot, “tanks” are absolutely worthless as they cannot hold aggro.

This game is solely about DPS and how much you can inflict that DPS on mobs.

Nice to see that you read the thread, and have a clue about what you are talking about.

I liked your insights into the hate mechanic, and optimal strategies for dealing with the mechanic. Perhaps you should elaborate further on this topic?

Robbyx.1284:

They did indeed remove the “holy trinity”, trouble is they replaced it with just one class….DPS…..anything else and you are just fooling yourself….healing ele’s are a waste of a slot, “tanks” are absolutely worthless as they cannot hold aggro.

This game is solely about DPS and how much you can inflict that DPS on mobs.

the game needs recount right?

Surbrus.6942:

Robbyx.1284:

They did indeed remove the “holy trinity”, trouble is they replaced it with just one class….DPS…..anything else and you are just fooling yourself….healing ele’s are a waste of a slot, “tanks” are absolutely worthless as they cannot hold aggro.

This game is solely about DPS and how much you can inflict that DPS on mobs.

Nice to see that you read the thread, and have a clue about what you are talking about.

I liked your insights into the hate mechanic, and optimal strategies for dealing with the mechanic. Perhaps you should elaborate further on this topic?

The thread is about “no holy trinity”, which i responded to…and there is no hate mechanic other than how much DPS you can pump out, that is a fact, there is no need to elaborate further, Anet made it very simple….DPS.

Hellkaiser.6025:

There “can” be, but there “shouldn’t” be.

If you’re the kind of player who perpetuates the fallacy that you “need” x role for a dungeon then you are part of an underlying problem that personally is like a cancer to a game community, leads to pigeonholing and ultimately creates conflict where there should be none.

I have yet to see ANYONE post that there needs to be a tank or a healer role, but to say that there “shouldn’t” be is just foolish. Everyone enjoys these types of games differently and I have to admit, ANet has done a WONDERFUL job of keeping each profession and role viable if played correctly.

Do you NEED a tank/healer? No.
Does a tank/healer make a group easier to be apart of? Yes. (assuming they know how to play their class)

Robbyx.1284:

Surbrus.6942:

Robbyx.1284:

They did indeed remove the “holy trinity”, trouble is they replaced it with just one class….DPS…..anything else and you are just fooling yourself….healing ele’s are a waste of a slot, “tanks” are absolutely worthless as they cannot hold aggro.

This game is solely about DPS and how much you can inflict that DPS on mobs.

Nice to see that you read the thread, and have a clue about what you are talking about.

I liked your insights into the hate mechanic, and optimal strategies for dealing with the mechanic. Perhaps you should elaborate further on this topic?

The thread is about “no holy trinity”, which i responded to…and there is no hate mechanic other than how much DPS you can pump out, that is a fact, there is no need to elaborate further, Anet made it very simple….DPS.

ANet never said the only viable class was DPS, and you are fooling yourself if you think that.

It was very clearly stated that there are multiple roles a person can take, these include but are not limited to: Damage, Support, and Control. Now this does not mean all people that play the role of “Control” must be tanks, or those that play the role of “Support” must be healers. There are many viable paths a player who enjoyes those roles that are not DPS can contribute to a party in some pretty amazing ways.

Robbyx.1284:

The thread is about “no holy trinity”, which i responded to…and there is no hate mechanic other than how much DPS you can pump out, that is a fact, there is no need to elaborate further, Anet made it very simple….DPS.

Then I suggest you counter the posts ITT that claim otherwise. You may provide anecdotes in your argument against those claiming that dungeon bosses and some other monsters do not entirely select their targets at random. There have already been strong anecdotes raised in this thread supporting this hypothesis.

I apologize, clearly I misrepresented my view

the question that this thread raises would be “Should there be dedicated tanks, healers and dps” The answer is of course “there can be, but there shouldn’t be”

I’ve nothing against a healing centric build, or a survival orientated build, but you can’t be a “tank” in the manner of which people expect, we’ve no threat, no taunting and the only way to drop aggro is stealth… meaning that thieves technically are the closest you get to tanking at times lol…

Surbrus.6942:

Robbyx.1284:

The thread is about “no holy trinity”, which i responded to…and there is no hate mechanic other than how much DPS you can pump out, that is a fact, there is no need to elaborate further, Anet made it very simple….DPS.

Then I suggest you counter the posts ITT that claim otherwise. You may provide anecdotes in your argument against those claiming that dungeon bosses and some other monsters do not entirely select their targets at random. There have already been strong anecdotes raised in this thread supporting this hypothesis.

I suggest you do your own research, like i did……go read Anets’s own wiki on threat generation…..well, to a lesser extent who is carrying a shield also has an effect, but that be can easily countered by slightly more DPS….for all intents and purposes, DPS is all that matters.

its funny to see people say there is no tanking and healing rolls, because its been around since day 1 and is going nowhere. I run power toughness vitality virtually everything on guard and my guild runs a very good healing ele. Aggro never leaves me from trash mobs to bosses and the only time i lose agg is when they turn to use special abilitys. The eles healing is good enough to outheal any damage aslong as im not standing in red circles while being hit with a bosses special 1 shot attack. I feel sorry for people who try and run dungeons with the belief healing does not exist so wp zerging is necessary

Sometimes its about PvP. They could be talking about something like my eng has where cleric gear gives me power.

I take a disproportional amount of aggro myself it seems. Bosses usually tend to target melee characters rather than those across the room unless they have a ranged attack.

It’s possible to make tankish builds with every profession. It mostly means you can hold agro for 10 hits instead of one but then you still need to get out. Working as intended.

Kindread.9481:

I recently switched to a glass canon build Sword/Pistol Thief build. The dungeons I have run with no control (tank) players I would say my damage was about halved due to mechanics that kept me out of melee range. With a control (tank) class I can easily double my melee uptime. In essence a tanky type player can not only add their damage to the mix, but add a LOT more for the other players.

This is true for boss encounters, but not necessarily true for trash pulls, that can be easily burned down by 5 DPS Glass Canons in seconds most of the time.

I have yet to group with a designated Elementalist healer, but due to the nature of the game if you can not control where a mob is and you have 4 DPS classes flying all over the place, chances are 50-70% of the time they will be out of range of said Elementalists heals.

A guardian with a staff can do a nice 2000hp heal with a small cooldown without needing to target. Next to the virtue that you can extend with regen (via traits). People often call guardian a tank, but he is not. His HP is one of the lowest in the game. Guardians are more healer / buffers.

There was a very good explanation to the class type in this game and how the different jobs fill these rolls at any given time. I cant find the link so i hope this is not too off.
The idea is that the one holding hate become the “keep away from others” or simply “do not die” the one who dose not hate become “out put dmg and help your team” (i am not sure if that 2 different things it may very well be). You can also have hate help your team (have hate do dmg) (just do dmg) (just help your team) but you cant have just hold hate because hate dose not work that way in this game the mobs are in some ways smart in that way.

You could argue that DPS is part of the so-called trinity, so focusing on it asw the one viable build/approach is (IMHO) as “bad” as focusing on “tanking” or Healing Power.

TBH, I (try to) “tank” a lot, and have absurd Healing Power, and I don’t see how I am being a hindrance to my allies. I love helping others, so if I thought DPS was “the way” to help my allies, I would do so. Having said that, my Profession has ways of being decent offensively while providing good support and heals-I just don’t have “full DPS” gear, preferring to heal/support/“tank” instead (and whichever playstyle suits you better will end up suiting all your allies better as well in the end.)

Truth is, some people will always loathe pure DPS roles, while others despise healer/support types. But all can be good, decently traited/geared.

Robbyx.1284:

….for all intents and purposes, DPS is all that matters.

To you, which is fine, but don’t force that view on others. If it was all that mattered, why did they design so many other traits/abilities around support/healing? For “flavor” only? What’s effective to you may not be to some others-I respect DPS, BTW, I just don’t feel it’s the one way to play this game, given the so many options we are blessed with. You just seem to prefer DPS, and gather your evidence according to such bias (which again, is OK, but not to tell others how they must play/enjoy the game.)

The most efficient playstyle is that which is suited to your own, not just DPS (though it may very well be DPS, to be sure.)

Feel free to totally disagree, of course-just know that not every good GW2 player is DPS-focused only.

Robbyx.1284:

They did indeed remove the “holy trinity”, trouble is they replaced it with just one class….DPS…..anything else and you are just fooling yourself….healing ele’s are a waste of a slot, “tanks” are absolutely worthless as they cannot hold aggro.

This game is solely about DPS and how much you can inflict that DPS on mobs.

You play too much World-of-Warcraft. Or games similiar for that matter.

This game’s combat system isnt about inflicting DPS. If all you think about is DPS then you’ll just die and be worthless. You cant play this game in the same way as you do in other traditional mmos.

There are NO:
DPS roles.
Tank roles.
Healer roles.

The Combat System is based of 3 mechanics:
Damage/Control/Support

which all class must deal “Damage”, stay in “Control” and “Support” themselves to stay self-effeciant.

And when TeamPlay is involved, Stuff like dungoens, You need to coordinate Control & Support skills while contributing in Damage.

This combat system requires a lot of teamwork and player skills.
So no, it’s not about doing the most Damage. It’s about staying alive by staying in “Control” and being able to “Support” yourself and work well coordinating with a team to overcome serious challenges.

If all you think about is DPS… You’ll become a huge liability… You wont be an Asset to the party.

Folks…

Still, if you are a “tank”, can you really hold aggro on that boss for the entire 4-5 minute duration of the fight? Any time I run with a “tank” the boss turns and starts walking toward someone else to smack. Yes, you can control it, slow it down, stun it, etc. Thats not tanking. Its control. The traditional holy trinity does not exist in this game, and if you some how manage to resurrect it, then arenanet did not do their job. Also, the control aspects that you would employ on the boss usually have diminished powers… Ever notice one of the buffs on the boss says something like “control effects are 25% less effective” or something like that? This is so that you cannot control and/or tank.

Make a pure tank spec, and it will take the group that much longer to kill the boss. Make a spec that is DPS, but has good survivability or group utility, and we kill it a bit faster. Make a glass cannon, yes you might go down more, but if you’re not an idiot you will be fine and the boss goes down even quicker.

I would say pure dps is a detriment as much as pure tank/healer. One should always strive to build in survivability in their build, or some group utility.

Its up to you to survive while doing the absolute most damage your class can do…and thinking your sword and board tank build does more damage than my thief, or whatever weapon loadout you use, you are sorely mistaken. Not even close.

And I agree, the holy trinity might have been replaced with a new trinity. However, to spec 100% all one way is a detriment to the group in some fashion.

100% dps and you might go down easier
100% control and youre not doing enough damage
100% support and youre not doing enough damage.

There are two roles, healing/tanking and damage. Healing generates more aggression than damage does, being the first in allows you to take a very real tanking and healing role on any encounter. You will need some skill to dodge instant-kills, but it’s not excessive like some people make it out to be. Tanking is perfectly viable and can be the core of any damage-filled party.

If tanking is viable, arenanet failed. That is all.

One person should not be able to hold hate on a mob for the entire encounter, and live to tell about it.

One person should not have the cooldowns and abilities to heal the entire group from standing in badfloors all the time.

Even though there are builds that lean one way or another, why do people feel the need to fight against the system, against the way the game was designed? Surely people heard that this game had no trinity, before they bought it. Yet, they buy it and try to make it into a WoW clone-tank,healer/dps?

It is not how this game was meant to be played.

I define holy trinity as the roles damage/control/support, which imho is essentially equivalent to dps/tank/heal.

The idea behind Anet claiming the end of the holy trinity is to alleviate the problem of having to find a specific class to fill one of those specific roles.

The trinity is still here, and likely to stay. But what Anet attempted to do is to moderate the trinity. In essence, more than one class can fill either roles with consistent success.

So, I would say Anet did a pretty decent job in that regard.

Oh there are healers and tanks, but they are not the type of healers and tanks other mmo’s have. Someone trying to facetank something will most likely end up dead and any “healer” will not be able to keep up with the damage. Optimally, everyone will adding in on the healing and tanking in whatever way they can.

Blackwolfe.5649:

Oh there are healers and tanks, but they are not the type of healers and tanks other mmo’s have. Someone trying to facetank something will most likely end up dead and any “healer” will not be able to keep up with the damage. Optimally, everyone will adding in on the healing and tanking in whatever way they can.

Tanking is more about soaking damage.
The point is to not soak damage but to evade it and keep control on enemy while dealing damage at enemy and being able to support urself and allies around you while in combat.

Anyone trying to tank will only be a liability. Not an asset to the group.
As for “Healers”. They dont exist. Sure everyone can “Support” each other and themselves some how, but its based on playstyle prefferences.

There are No Tanks, and No Healers to Babysitt you to make you Feel Safe in combat while you focus on Fully doing DPS on your favorite class. Just… No.

Because of this, there are no “Holy Trinity”.
Damage/Control/Support are not “Roles”. They are “Combat Mechanics” that the Combat System is based on.

Because of this: Everyclass must coordinate Control & Support, while contributing in Damage. This is what ArenaNet did.

A “Trinity” is more based on having a Class for a specific Role.
This isnt a new Trinity. Its a new Combat System.

Yes, there is mate.
What’s the point of playing an elementalist over a healer?
Or a tank over a guardian? A dps’er over a thief?

cesmode.4257:

I keep reading threads on “is this tanking build viable?” , “is this healing build viable?”

I run dungeons and when I see someone try to tank, after a few seconds the boss either locks on someone else or rofl stomps the would-be tank. After all of your cooldowns are wasted staying alive, are you really helping the group?

I know people can try to steer themselves in the direction of tank/heals, but do true tanks and healers exist? Do you think that by being a complete support build / heal build you are 100% helping the group? Shouldn’t you have some offensive capabilities and not just focus on your support cooldowns?

I grow weary of people saying they are a tank, because this game isn’t meant to have tanks.
I also understand that some fights prefer ranged, but when someone tells me to go ranged all the time on my thief, I get annoyed…the game isn’t meant for all ranged weapons. Shouldn’t I be able to run the dungeon the way I want, if I play it correctly?

Old habits die hard, apparently. Traiting to pure heal or tank always seems to always sacrifice something that actually helps a group.

Vakirauta.6397:

Yes, there is mate.
What’s the point of playing an elementalist over a healer?
Or a tank over a guardian? A dps’er over a thief?

I encourage you to browse this website that says there is no holy trinity.

You can spec to be more towards the healy side, but if you sit there doing nothing when health bars are full, you are a detriment to the group. If your DPS suffers because you are statted for +Healing Power only, you are a detriment to the group.

The way combat, hate, and boss fights are designed work around everyone attacking the boss, keeping themselves alive, and helping eachother out. You perform a mixture of the three roles for the most successful outcome. The groups that I have been in that have been the most successful, do not have dedicated roles.

The trick to have easier fights in GW2 isn’t to ‘hold aggro’ but to “juggle enemies”.

An enemy switching targets and running from party member to party member isn’t attacking.

This works also in PvP, if the entire party locks on you, you’re dead unless you get the hell out of there or they really suck. But step right behind another party member, and their projectiles will hit them instead of you, spreading the damage, and they may even switch targets (often unintentionally, thanks to our friend the right-click select).

I sometimes engage a champion when there’s people around, thinking they’ll join in.
Instead, I get an amazed bunch of spectators as I solo the champion. It isn’t that hard. All you had to do is see where they are going to hit, and not be there, and carefully use your skills. It just takes a freaking long time when you are alone. People won’t join until the last moment when they see I’m able to solo the champion and get defeated when they do join. But they wouldn’t be defeated if they did as I do. If you are melee, run around to their back and dodge when they use PBAoE skills. If you are ranged, stay away and keep the distance and dodge the strongest projectiles. If you have protection skills like blocks, dodges, ccs, snares and invulnerabilities, use them wisely…
But hey! I didn’t want to solo them in the first place! I don’t want to show off! Come help me already!
If you stop doing what yo do and turn around to run away, you lower your guard, and they may snare you, or hit you with a ranged CC, and you are done for, so I end up being stuck until I finish the champion all alone.

And once I defeat the guy, it has either white drops or nothing at all.
One of the worst ones is that final boss in the eta-event at the Svanir Dome. People end up reviving the defeated NPCs while I keep running around hitting the champion.
Some even leave mid-fight, and when they see the guy drops nothing and there’s no chest inside the hut, they leave pissed, even when I did most of the job! And I also got not drops or chest!
Yargh!
Why do I keep doing that event?

I have made a new Thread Regarding GW2’s Combat system.
Check it out:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players/GW2-Combat-system-101/first#post892295

=)

cesmode.4257:

If tanking is viable, arenanet failed. That is all.

One person should not be able to hold hate on a mob for the entire encounter, and live to tell about it.

One person should not have the cooldowns and abilities to heal the entire group from standing in badfloors all the time.

Even though there are builds that lean one way or another, why do people feel the need to fight against the system, against the way the game was designed? Surely people heard that this game had no trinity, before they bought it. Yet, they buy it and try to make it into a WoW clone-tank,healer/dps?

It is not how this game was meant to be played.

How can you say the game was not meant to be played that way? Just because ANet renamed the roles in the group does not change anything. We just went from Tank, Healer, DPS, to Control, Support, Damage.

I do not think anyone is under the illusions that aggro has changed significantly and a “tank” can no longer spam a threat ability and save the group .. this type of thinking no longer applies in this game. The same can be said about the “healing” role. Just because someone has traited and geared for +healing and group support does not mean they just stand in the back and play whack-a-mole with health bars. This game is far more technical than that. But to say these roles are useless, or were nto meant to be in this game is just down right ignorant.

Just because your group of 5 DPS can do challenging content, does not mean it is the ONLY way to do that content. It also does not mean that if you take a well played control (tank) class into your group that you would not have a MUCH eaiser time with said content.

cesmode.4257:

If your DPS suffers because you are statted for +Healing Power only, you are a detriment to the group.

The way combat, hate, and boss fights are designed work around everyone attacking the boss, keeping themselves alive, and helping eachother out. You perform a mixture of the three roles for the most successful outcome. The groups that I have been in that have been the most successful, do not have dedicated roles.

No one can be statted for Healing Power only-you will always be adding either Precision and Vitality, or Toughness and Power (Condition/Toughness with the newer stat combos being devised). Therefore, having max Healing Power is just a playstyle thing, and won’t hinder either you or your allies, depending on how you play. Note that one can have maximum Healing Power and still add to the total offense in multitude of ways, either supportive or direct (I believe we agree that trying to be an old-school healer won’t cut it, simply beause it can’t be done as effectively as it used to be with truly dedicated roles, which have gone away for the most part.)

To be honest, I don’t give a darn about this supposed “holy trinity” nor do I think it “necessary” for our games, just because the majority of games have done it before. However, I do disagree with the notion that anything but DPS is worthless because there’s no trinity.

In practice, I am able to soak damage as if I was a tank quite a big deal, because Guardians have so many, many ways of negating/blocking even huge hits. So I don’t believe that you are supposed to dodge all the time either (yes if I was most other classes, and yes, for some events/bosses, I am running almost non-stop while attacking.) I have learned when it’s wiser to run and when to move little. In fact, I also disagree with someone who said people trying to tank bosses will get “rofl stomped.” They can be, depending on the boss and what they failed to evade. And of course “classic tanking” is not always possible due to the way aggro works at times (even though I have been able to hold aggro for quite a while at times.) I will try to evade the biggest attacks, but for the most part, like to be in the midst of the action attacking, absorbing/blocking hits, while indirectly healing/supporting my allies.

I have to add, though, that while I focus on Healing Power (a supposed “no-no”) and defensive maneuvers, I am always attacking in some way, so even though my DPS may be relatively low, it’s almost always consistent, while I aid my allies through combo fields, and with Might and other boons (like Regen and Protection). I do not sit on the back just healing, for my character is not a real GW1 Monk nor should it try to be one (and truth to be told, I have rarely seen anyone play a “healer” in that fashion on GW2). So in the end, our attack number doesn’t really tell the whole story, nor should I be forced to have the highest attack possible in detriment of all other useful abilities my character has (not that it’s wrong to have very high DPS, as it’s just another way of enjoying your gaming experience and suits some people better than others.)

I think the most liberating thing about not having the Trinity is (besides not being forced to look for healers for groups) that people are able to enjoy playing whichever multi-roles they want as they fit THEIR OWN playstyle, and are not forced (nor should be told) how to play the game/which “more effective” builds to have/etc. Most players who have the old mindset still require this or that, but truly most builds that make sense can and will be successful-having fun with the game will always trump supposed guidelines for “effectiveness”, because an engaged player usually plays to the best of his/her ability.

cesmode.4257:

Vakirauta.6397:

Yes, there is mate.
What’s the point of playing an elementalist over a healer?
Or a tank over a guardian? A dps’er over a thief?

I encourage you to browse this website that says there is no holy trinity.

You can spec to be more towards the healy side, but if you sit there doing nothing when health bars are full, you are a detriment to the group. If your DPS suffers because you are statted for +Healing Power only, you are a detriment to the group.

The way combat, hate, and boss fights are designed work around everyone attacking the boss, keeping themselves alive, and helping eachother out. You perform a mixture of the three roles for the most successful outcome. The groups that I have been in that have been the most successful, do not have dedicated roles.

Bad players are bad. This has been true throughout the ages. I for one enjoy grouping with Support and Control classes, as long as we also have enough damage classes to clear the content. If I ever saw an Elementalist that spec’d support (heals) that was just standing around waiting to heal I would have some pretty harsh words for that person.

The groups that I have been in that have been the most successful have dedicated roles … its called coordination.

Kindread.9481:

cesmode.4257:

If tanking is viable, arenanet failed. That is all.

One person should not be able to hold hate on a mob for the entire encounter, and live to tell about it.

One person should not have the cooldowns and abilities to heal the entire group from standing in badfloors all the time.

Even though there are builds that lean one way or another, why do people feel the need to fight against the system, against the way the game was designed? Surely people heard that this game had no trinity, before they bought it. Yet, they buy it and try to make it into a WoW clone-tank,healer/dps?

It is not how this game was meant to be played.

How can you say the game was not meant to be played that way? Just because ANet renamed the roles in the group does not change anything. We just went from Tank, Healer, DPS, to Control, Support, Damage.

I do not think anyone is under the illusions that aggro has changed significantly and a “tank” can no longer spam a threat ability and save the group .. this type of thinking no longer applies in this game. The same can be said about the “healing” role. Just because someone has traited and geared for +healing and group support does not mean they just stand in the back and play whack-a-mole with health bars. This game is far more technical than that. But to say these roles are useless, or were nto meant to be in this game is just down right ignorant.

Just because your group of 5 DPS can do challenging content, does not mean it is the ONLY way to do that content. It also does not mean that if you take a well played control (tank) class into your group that you would not have a MUCH eaiser time with said content.

I dont think he is saying “DPS groups are the only way to go”.
In fact, I doubt his even encouraging DPS as a role.

His just saying that its important for everyone to focus on playing the Combat System for what it is. Which is actually based on the mechanics of Damage/Control/Support.

Every class is designed specificlly to be self-effeciant so not only can they solo but they can all be reliable in a group play such as Dungoens.

An Example;
I partied with players who want to mainly focus on Support and Tank. But we always end up losing cause the so called “Tank” keeps dying since he refuses to move and dodge since his build has high defense and health. He could of avoided taking damage, helping with Control, and contributing in Damage. Not just Support. While an Elementalist who only uses Water attunments, could of helps with Control/Damage instead of just healing and sticking with 1 set of skills.

Now I had also partied with players who where actually good. They actually Coordinate Control & Support while contributing in Damage in the dungoens. Which was good because We usually always succeed much more smoothly since we try to help by contributing in the fight.

With that example and experiences I have had, I can bet that the OP is also feels the same to the point he feels it has to be addressed.

Its not about DPS.
It’s about contributing effectivly as a team in the fight.

karma.8763:

the only one that can actually be sorta helpful is the healer role, but then even the healer would be hurting the party, because thats 1 less person taking the bosses health down. people tanking and healing are bootable offenses imo, run with a guild for this and dont waste my time.

I think ALL heal abilities should be self-only.

agreed, the holy trinity existed because jobs were very specialized. If the sale point is no trinity, you should have more customizable features for the jobs.

It’d be nice if you can unlock more weapon skills and shuffle it around like the utility skills.

also, tanks don’t work in this game because damage mitigation just don’t cut like other mmos. You need to keep moving, move out of aoe effects quicky, and heal/remove conditions. You can’t rely on anyone to do that for you.

So tired of people saying you can’t build tank but the build themselves glass cannons.

You can play more defensive, you can play more offensive.

You play too hard the one way you are pretty worthless.

Too hard the other and you are also … pretty worthless.

The healer player can play healer if they want just like you can play glass cannon. I am so tired of watching players crumple up on the ground in one hit.

Effective is also relative. If the player doesn’t have to be a constant revive and does not hinder me in any way. I consider them useful.

Too often other players end up getting me killed due to having to revive them.

cesmode.4257:

Folks…

Still, if you are a “tank”, can you really hold aggro on that boss for the entire 4-5 minute duration of the fight? Any time I run with a “tank” the boss turns and starts walking toward someone else to smack. Yes, you can control it, slow it down, stun it, etc. Thats not tanking. Its control. The traditional holy trinity does not exist in this game, and if you some how manage to resurrect it, then arenanet did not do their job. Also, the control aspects that you would employ on the boss usually have diminished powers… Ever notice one of the buffs on the boss says something like “control effects are 25% less effective” or something like that? This is so that you cannot control and/or tank.

Make a pure tank spec, and it will take the group that much longer to kill the boss. Make a spec that is DPS, but has good survivability or group utility, and we kill it a bit faster. Make a glass cannon, yes you might go down more, but if you’re not an idiot you will be fine and the boss goes down even quicker.

I would say pure dps is a detriment as much as pure tank/healer. One should always strive to build in survivability in their build, or some group utility.

Its up to you to survive while doing the absolute most damage your class can do…and thinking your sword and board tank build does more damage than my thief, or whatever weapon loadout you use, you are sorely mistaken. Not even close.

Hi,

You’re simply wrong. Sword/Shield with Hammer secondary is what my guild mate runs on his guardian. In Fractals especially, as long as he grabs aggro first they never, ever peel off of him. It’s even easier in fights with trash adds because he just needs to focus on kiting the boss while we focus on the trash then the boss in that order.

He’s built very tanky, but gains damage through constant (unbuffed) burning and raw power. The current setup he uses allows him to constantly attack and redirect attacks while simultaneously buffing allies and passively healing himself. He’s able to eat a 6k damage hit and be back to full health within 10 seconds just by dodging.

His armor is high, his attack damage is high and his survivability is high. He deals adequate damage while making the rest of the party deal more damage. Sure he doesn’t deal as much damage as your glass cannon thief does, but I would sure as hell take him along over a glass cannon any day. Full dps parties usually result in people falling over dead and the entire group pausing to resurrect them. I’d rather not be slowed down by your trash.

Love,
A friend

P.S. The secret to being a good tank is having the ability to stack Might, Fury, Retaliation and other buffs. You know, what every member of your party should be doing for each other anyway.

Trinity has a greatly diminished role. You won’t be a healbot (which ofc is control anyway now), or stand still as a tank taking hits, or just do DPS. But you can still specialize, and the best groups do use these aspects to some extent. If you’ve ever played with a good tanky player in your party, you’ll know it does make a major difference. Control is often harder to see directly, but if used against you in PvP/WvW especially you’ll darn well notice :P.

I hope a trait switch set gets added, which will really allow players to switch roles on the fly (I’d prefer it can be done in-combat, tied to your weapon sets… at least for trait points. Armor would be a bit strange).
Likewise, it’d be nice if resetting traits was free. Would promote groups to set up their builds before starting a run.

Short story: players aren’t mindlessly doing one-task-only. But they still have specializations, and I’d say that’s how it should be.

One way to be an effective “tank” imo is still to be able to up your dmg output because if its really really low, the mobs will ignore you (boss). Which is why power/tough/vit is really really helpful. it might seem counterintuitive that you get less tough than knight (highest toughness), but you get vit (useful for tanking) and high power, something that attracts the mobs to you. It annoys me sometimes though that as a tanky engineer, my warrior friend’s dps output is so high he’s essentially kiting the boss for everyone of us and I get little chance to tank. hehe

But wrt Kerithlan, I guess that idea of tanking is only for guardians. Diff classes all have different ways to tank (imo), and some excel at particular situations than others. One thing I noticed lacking in my guardian mace/focus is the lack of combo fields and finishers available on him. Sure he has light (all guardian weaps have it anyways), but there’s it has little finisher, and even some finishers aren’t that helpful (or rather unreliable), or maybe i haven’t played with him yet.

On my tanky eng, with HGH i can buff my mates with 3 stacks of might at the start while providing a knockback to the mob, and a reliable area might every 9-10 seconds. It’s no “For Great Justice” of course, but those are merely using skills in my 1-5 (and tool kit). I can also have the thief’s aoe-stealth skill as well, which will be invaluable in ressing people or losing aggro. By providing those kinds of utilities, I think that’s how the eng tank works =P

There is no holy trinity of typical tanks/healers but there ARE “Supports” and yes, they make dungeons 100% easier. The higher you get into fractals, the more you realize you should have a support.

Also, some classes fill the support role better than others, with out a doubt.

Support roles are definitely helpful in Dungeons, if done correctly.

I was in an explorable dungeon with a few people (CM) and we were struggling keeping the NPC alive. None of us had support builds that could not only keep him alive, but also keep the mobs at bay long enough for the rest of the team to do their jobs. So I offered to go get my Guardian, who is specced “tank”.

Now either we did it enough times by then that we just got used to it, or my Guardian actually did help. Either way, that part of the story became infinitely easier with my Guardian keeping the NPC alive, and at least tanking the mobs until they could destroy the last nests. My point is, tanks do exist, and support builds do exist, and in some situations they can be extremely useful if done correctly.

They exist, they’re just not mandatory dedicated roles lol, if you’re playing a dedicated tank role then more power to you, but it’s NOT MANDATORY

If it is then you’ll likely see nerfs to defensive traits and stats to stop it… YAY!! sounds great -_-’

Hellkaiser.6025:

They exist, they’re just not mandatory dedicated roles lol, if you’re playing a dedicated tank role then more power to you, but it’s NOT MANDATORY

If it is then you’ll likely see nerfs to defensive traits and stats to stop it… YAY!! sounds great -_-’

I sure hope that they nerf traits that lead people to go for “tank” or “heal” builds.

Arenanet says no holy trinity. Arenanet says no tanking. Arenanet says no healing. This is not my opinion, this is what the game developers say, they made the game so there wouldn’t be any roles. You can trait however you want but when they do nerf some of these defensive abilities, I hope you wont leave the game because this is what they have intended to do all along. You can still have those abilities, but they are more for added survivability rather than role defining.