There's no reward for higher lvl content.

There's no reward for higher lvl content.

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Posted by: Daishi.6027

Daishi.6027

You get skins.

You don’t need gear treadmill for challenge. At a certain point the challenge is scaled for optimal stats anyways, it’s just a question of if you want to put people on a treadmill to get to that point every time there is new content, which is not nessicary other than for pointless padding and filler.

If you don’t like skins as a reward, then to bad. Marginalized numbers isn’t much of a reward to most of the playerbase either. Game isn’t going to change for you, you might prefer playing WoW.

We (try) to have a skill based game not one where your gear carries you.

If you find high end frac and raids to casual, then that is an instance balance issue, not a gear one. If the lack of challenge is the problem, then asking for objectively better stats only makes you more casual since the pros de-buff themselves so only the truely hard core can manage it.

“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”

(edited by Daishi.6027)

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Posted by: MoarChaos.8320

MoarChaos.8320

Changing to a gear treadmill is a slap in the face to the current player base, and trying to replace them with a different player base. There’s no way around that.

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Posted by: MoarChaos.8320

MoarChaos.8320

And I’m not even talking about the casual players. The die hards who play everyday stick with the game because they know they can update their ascended with the mystic forge, if they feel inclined to try out the new meta people are being ridiculous about.

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

We’re talking about a game with little to no difficulty in the open world. We’re talking about a game where most skills are useless, clumsy or balanced for pvp, which makes them feel underwhelming and unsatisfying to use in PvE. We’re talking about a game that still has repetitive grinds just as much as any other MMO, just with cosmetics instead of more powerful items. We’re talking about a game that forces you to go into jumping puzzles to complete map achievements, and then had a kitten bad game engine that puts invisible barriers and invisible ground everywhere you jump into.

I can go on, but GW2 isn’t exactly the champion of “fun” games.

Thank you. Independent of the thread, this summed up the issues of GW2 quite succinctly.

Show me another mmorpg with such unique things to do outside of crafting and combat? These things are not that bad, yes the jump puzzles sometimes are a bit much but beyond that it is not as flawed as people make it out to be, they have fixed it over time and made it better.

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Posted by: Dindin.2378

Dindin.2378

We’re talking about a game with little to no difficulty in the open world. We’re talking about a game where most skills are useless, clumsy or balanced for pvp, which makes them feel underwhelming and unsatisfying to use in PvE. We’re talking about a game that still has repetitive grinds just as much as any other MMO, just with cosmetics instead of more powerful items. We’re talking about a game that forces you to go into jumping puzzles to complete map achievements, and then had a kitten bad game engine that puts invisible barriers and invisible ground everywhere you jump into.

I can go on, but GW2 isn’t exactly the champion of “fun” games.

Thank you. Independent of the thread, this summed up the issues of GW2 quite succinctly.

Show me another mmorpg with such unique things to do outside of crafting and combat? These things are not that bad, yes the jump puzzles sometimes are a bit much but beyond that it is not as flawed as people make it out to be, they have fixed it over time and made it better.

Guildwars 2 has great activities. The world is amazing, the puzzles, everything. The problem IMO is the reward for the activities. There is no thrill. Everything is linear. You know you can do X activity and get Y reward. There is (almost) no OMG I JUST GOT Z REWARD INSTEAD OF Y REWARD. Y reward most often is a currency you farm for 10 years so you can upgrade the color and shape of your shirt.

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

It sounds like OP is playing the wrong game…
WoW is that way —-————>

I really dislike your mentality. This is the main mentality of the Guildwars 2 fan boys. It is even worse on Reddit. You seem to think that if someone is attacking what YOU like they should just leave the game, instead of thinking and helping them to make the game also right for them. It isn’t just one person having this feelings, there are many. Hell, I even left the game for 2 years because of this. Those could have been 2 years where I spent money in the gem store and supported the game.

No we won’t leave. I will be vocal about what I dislike and I will stay until I can’t enjoy the game anymore.

I agree with you there are better ways to suggest a gear treadmill game, it is common for people to defend mmorpgs though I have seen this happen constantly in every mmorpg when someone points out a flaw, it is still just a game at the end of the days everyone:)

However he is right, if you want a gear treadmills you have some choices but I do not recommend wow unless you do not mind an older combat system. I really do not recommend eso though because I found the endgame content hardly varied if you wanted to raid.

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

You get skins.

You don’t need gear treadmill for challenge. At a certain point the challenge is scaled for optimal stats anyways, it’s just a question of if you want to put people on a treadmill to get to that point every time there is new content, which is not nessicary other than for pointless padding and filler.

If you don’t like skins as a reward, then to bad. Marginalized numbers isn’t much of a reward to most of the playerbase either. Game isn’t going to change for you, you might prefer playing WoW.

We (try) to have a skill based game not one where your gear carries you.

If you find high end frac and raids to casual, then that is an instance balance issue, not a gear one. If the lack of challenge is the problem, then asking for objectively better stats only makes you more casual since the pros de-buff themselves so only the truely hard core can manage it.

One thing people are forgetting is they can also make gold and convert to gems to get things in the store as well.

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

We’re talking about a game with little to no difficulty in the open world. We’re talking about a game where most skills are useless, clumsy or balanced for pvp, which makes them feel underwhelming and unsatisfying to use in PvE. We’re talking about a game that still has repetitive grinds just as much as any other MMO, just with cosmetics instead of more powerful items. We’re talking about a game that forces you to go into jumping puzzles to complete map achievements, and then had a kitten bad game engine that puts invisible barriers and invisible ground everywhere you jump into.

I can go on, but GW2 isn’t exactly the champion of “fun” games.

Thank you. Independent of the thread, this summed up the issues of GW2 quite succinctly.

Show me another mmorpg with such unique things to do outside of crafting and combat? These things are not that bad, yes the jump puzzles sometimes are a bit much but beyond that it is not as flawed as people make it out to be, they have fixed it over time and made it better.

Guildwars 2 has great activities. The world is amazing, the puzzles, everything. The problem IMO is the reward for the activities. There is no thrill. Everything is linear. You know you can do X activity and get Y reward. There is (almost) no OMG I JUST GOT Z REWARD INSTEAD OF Y REWARD. Y reward most often is a currency you farm for 10 years so you can upgrade the color and shape of your shirt.

I am confused how is there no rewards? Jump puzzles have vistas and etc, then you have chests for special jump puzzles, when was the last time you played? And linear? Are you kidding me? What? This is the most free roamish mmorpg I have played that is not an actual sandbox.

And if you wanted a more of an rng factor into those chests then you wont likely like the rng range, careful what you wish for, and if they had to do it for some they would have to do it for all.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

We’re talking about a game with little to no difficulty in the open world. We’re talking about a game where most skills are useless, clumsy or balanced for pvp, which makes them feel underwhelming and unsatisfying to use in PvE. We’re talking about a game that still has repetitive grinds just as much as any other MMO, just with cosmetics instead of more powerful items. We’re talking about a game that forces you to go into jumping puzzles to complete map achievements, and then had a kitten bad game engine that puts invisible barriers and invisible ground everywhere you jump into.

I can go on, but GW2 isn’t exactly the champion of “fun” games.

Thank you. Independent of the thread, this summed up the issues of GW2 quite succinctly.

Show me another mmorpg with such unique things to do outside of crafting and combat? These things are not that bad, yes the jump puzzles sometimes are a bit much but beyond that it is not as flawed as people make it out to be, they have fixed it over time and made it better.

Guildwars 2 has great activities. The world is amazing, the puzzles, everything. The problem IMO is the reward for the activities. There is no thrill. Everything is linear. You know you can do X activity and get Y reward. There is (almost) no OMG I JUST GOT Z REWARD INSTEAD OF Y REWARD. Y reward most often is a currency you farm for 10 years so you can upgrade the color and shape of your shirt.

I am confused how is there no rewards? Jump puzzles have vistas and etc, then you have chests for special jump puzzles, when was the last time you played? And linear? Are you kidding me? What? This is the most free roamish mmorpg I have played that is not an actual sandbox.

And if you wanted a more of an rng factor into those chests then you wont likely like the rng range, careful what you wish for, and if they had to do it for some they would have to do it for all.

when people post a complaint, you have to look not just at the words they use, but towards the overall meaning of what they are saying.

He isnt saying that they dont give you enough items for doing things, he is saying that whatever the reward is, it rarely feels compelling.

He feels random drops usually feel compelling, in comparison with gw2 drops.

When he says they feel linear, he is saying it feels like walking 6 miles to get something you want, as opposed to finding it in a junkyard.

basically he is a lot of endgame activities dont “feel” rewarding, not that they have no rewards

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

We’re talking about a game with little to no difficulty in the open world. We’re talking about a game where most skills are useless, clumsy or balanced for pvp, which makes them feel underwhelming and unsatisfying to use in PvE. We’re talking about a game that still has repetitive grinds just as much as any other MMO, just with cosmetics instead of more powerful items. We’re talking about a game that forces you to go into jumping puzzles to complete map achievements, and then had a kitten bad game engine that puts invisible barriers and invisible ground everywhere you jump into.

I can go on, but GW2 isn’t exactly the champion of “fun” games.

Thank you. Independent of the thread, this summed up the issues of GW2 quite succinctly.

Show me another mmorpg with such unique things to do outside of crafting and combat? These things are not that bad, yes the jump puzzles sometimes are a bit much but beyond that it is not as flawed as people make it out to be, they have fixed it over time and made it better.

Guildwars 2 has great activities. The world is amazing, the puzzles, everything. The problem IMO is the reward for the activities. There is no thrill. Everything is linear. You know you can do X activity and get Y reward. There is (almost) no OMG I JUST GOT Z REWARD INSTEAD OF Y REWARD. Y reward most often is a currency you farm for 10 years so you can upgrade the color and shape of your shirt.

I am confused how is there no rewards? Jump puzzles have vistas and etc, then you have chests for special jump puzzles, when was the last time you played? And linear? Are you kidding me? What? This is the most free roamish mmorpg I have played that is not an actual sandbox.

And if you wanted a more of an rng factor into those chests then you wont likely like the rng range, careful what you wish for, and if they had to do it for some they would have to do it for all.

when people post a complaint, you have to look not just at the words they use, but towards the overall meaning of what they are saying.

He isnt saying that they dont give you enough items for doing things, he is saying that whatever the reward is, it rarely feels compelling.

He feels random drops usually feel compelling, in comparison with gw2 drops.

When he says they feel linear, he is saying it feels like walking 6 miles to get something you want, as opposed to finding it in a junkyard.

basically he is a lot of endgame activities dont “feel” rewarding, not that they have no rewards

Do not talk to me like a child, you have no idea what he meant by linear though he did not say loot was linear, so your just assuming at this point, and the loot is not linear, in fact it is far from it. I did take in his entire post and it is not correct.

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Posted by: kdaddy.5431

kdaddy.5431

Yes…. Higher level content:

Fractals & 100CM:

  • legendary backpack,
  • unique skins,
  • stat infusions
  • Guild Hall decorations

Raids & CM:

  • legendary armors,
  • ascneded gear,
  • unique skins,
  • aura’s
  • titles

WvW:

  • Armor skins,
  • Ascneded armor/weapons
  • legendary backpack

PvP:

  • Armor skins,
  • PvP rewards from season (titles, legendaries, pre’s),
  • skins unique to PvP,
  • Ascneded armors,
  • legendary backpack,

PvE

  • Mastry levels,
  • unique skins from some worldbosses,
  • titles,
  • skins,
  • aura’s…

Gold, Karma, other currency and AP’s not included…

Endgame… what do you expect from endgame may I ask?

I have 27 ascneded armors on 22 lvl 80’s, 1 legendary armor, 1 legendary backpack, 6 legendary weapons, some aura’s, 28+k AP, a serious list of titles (I use only a few), I suck at PvP, but have seen ppl doing good and receiving pre’s and titles. I have a private guild hall decorated, for myself and close friends, I have all lvl100 CM skins unlocked.

I’m Unclean, but not Eternal, and only did Cairn CM, mostly due to lack of time. I do not have Slippery Slub

I have a decent account…

And now for the most important bit:


I have FUN playing this game, and with this community, being the best reward of all


In the end you play a game because you like it. Which will be your game’s reward.

You kind of kill your own argument there. You said ascended gear but thats not unique. Actually ascended gear is handed out like candy out of a van now. Anyone who walks up to it can get a piece as long as they jump into the van.

At the end you write about all your ascended gear, guess what i have 9 characters and they have all ascended gear too and i havent even played HOT that much.

For PvP you wrote titles legendaries and pre’s? If you could explain please. Because you only get unique armor if win TOL events. Anyone could get the legendary titles S1-4 which is way the PvP community was so upset. Like i had friends who were in bronze3-S1 who got there legendary titles and i didnt play S4 so they have a title i didnt get and i was in Plat 2 in S5 for a bit.

WvW just got new stuff so way to be 2 years ahead of the curve there.

Now raids, i give it up to ya. raids got all the goodies, all the end game stuff. I agree here+1.

But everything you named was random RNG skins, drops or titles you get from finishing a JP.

That isnt high level content. For instance i didnt play much of S6 in PvP but i did not finish in the top 250 for S5 with a rating of 1708. In Season 6 i would of been in the top 100-150. Once again the community is looking at Anet as really? The killed the rewards and made PvP rewards more PvE with crafting so serious PvP players couldnt even make the items.

Got to look at it from the other side as if you didnt have a van with candy

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

If successful completion of the content and having fun with people you team with isn’t enough of an incentive to do the content, then you need to evaluate why you even play MMO’s in the first place, especially GW2.

GW2, yes. MMOs in general, no way..

And to be completely honest, that’s completely by game design. I don’t think Anet or the players would want it ANY OTHER WAY! It is THE primary reason to enjoy this game; Anet has successfully decoupled gear treadmill (the reason I don’t like other games) from the ability to be successful and rewarded. They have done that by recognizing that the pablum of gear treadmill linked to progression that other MMO’s give you is NOT the only way to provide players an engaging MMO experience.

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Posted by: Fallesafe.5932

Fallesafe.5932

OP here,

I think my post needs a little more explanation. So here’s where I’m coming from. I geared my character up because I wanted to eventually do ambitious content, and be able to really contribute to the effort. I didn’t want to be “that person” who was playing a DPS class, and doing less damage than non-dps characters. So I spent a good bit of time addressing that first obstacle in my way.

But, of course, there’s SOOOO much more to it than just gearing up your character. After you have all your gear, then you need to jump into the content and actually learn the intricacies of each encounter (i.e. learn to play). That’s pretty much where I am right now. And I’m finding that, a lot of times, I’m very hesitant to really push out of my comfort-zone, because people are terribly impatient with group-members who do dumb things or don’t know all the things that they know.

And I just wish there was something left in the game to incentivize the process. But there isn’t. I don’t care about skins and auras because I’ve already (painstakingly) chosen a great look that I have no desire to change. I don’t care about miniatures, or guild-decorations, or achievement-points, because they’re utterly irrelevant to what I want to do in the game. I don’t care about mastery points because I already have all the ones that will ever matter. And I don’t care about legendaries because they’re functionally identical to their ascended counterparts.

So I’m just looking at this stomach-churning grind through the content, with temperamental people who are way more skilled/experienced than me and with no actual rewards coming my way. And there’s a part of me that just says, why bother? But then, there’s nothing else in the game. I can’t stand to do another Tequatl kill or Dragon’s stand meta. I’m bored to death of open-world content.

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

Try the other two game modes, then?

Also, everyone had to ‘slog through’ the content to learn it. I’m not sure there’s any sure-fire way to bypass experience and ‘getting gud’. /shrug

Good luck.

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Posted by: kdaddy.5431

kdaddy.5431

OP here,

I think my post needs a little more explanation. So here’s where I’m coming from. I geared my character up because I wanted to eventually do ambitious content, and be able to really contribute to the effort. I didn’t want to be “that person” who was playing a DPS class, and doing less damage than non-dps characters. So I spent a good bit of time addressing that first obstacle in my way.

But, of course, there’s SOOOO much more to it than just gearing up your character. After you have all your gear, then you need to jump into the content and actually learn the intricacies of each encounter (i.e. learn to play). That’s pretty much where I am right now. And I’m finding that, a lot of times, I’m very hesitant to really push out of my comfort-zone, because people are terribly impatient with group-members who do dumb things or don’t know all the things that they know.

And I just wish there was something left in the game to incentivize the process. But there isn’t. I don’t care about skins and auras because I’ve already (painstakingly) chosen a great look that I have no desire to change. I don’t care about miniatures, or guild-decorations, or achievement-points, because they’re utterly irrelevant to what I want to do in the game. I don’t care about mastery points because I already have all the ones that will ever matter. And I don’t care about legendaries because they’re functionally identical to their ascended counterparts.

So I’m just looking at this stomach-churning grind through the content, with temperamental people who are way more skilled/experienced than me and with no actual rewards coming my way. And there’s a part of me that just says, why bother? But then, there’s nothing else in the game. I can’t stand to do another Tequatl kill or Dragon’s stand meta. I’m bored to death of open-world content.

Ok i understand this.

So i have played since pre and in core GW2 there wasnt fractals or living story to play.

Dungeons for us were what raids are for you now. Especially the Arah dungeons, they were crazy hard before the nerfs and new stat armors and ascended armor.

But after that what was there left to do in GW2? So for me it was playing WvW (before we got ranking points) and PvP. Now i fell in love with PvP because it was fun, alot of different wonky builds you could play. Like in the olden days i messed around with Pistol thief like condi pistol thief and zerker unload theif. And as a warrior and ele main i have literally thousands of games played on those 2 classes.

Before the big nerf to PvP, PvP used to give unique finishers /rank and titles for completing X level.

I feel your pain because PvP and WvW was the end game content for alot of people. They are trying to bring excitement to these 2 game modes but HOT killed the fun in them.

So in all honesty if you dont enjoy WvW- PvP. And you have done all you can in raids, you simply either farm AP or wait for Living Storys come out. The good thing about GW2 is there is no subscription fee so you can always come back.

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

So in other words, you’re asking for the game to be changed from a cosmetic based game to a gear grind game because you need an extra incentive to play with “temperamental people who are more skilled than you”?

Nooooo. Not a good reason to change one of the few non geargrind games to yet one more treadmill game. May I suggest you find a guild with members you enjoy playing with instead of revamping the game to suit your individual wishes?

Edit: that’s actually a very interesting thing you’ve said OP

(Snip)
So I’m just looking at this stomach-churning grind through the content, with temperamental people who are way more skilled/experienced than me and with no actual rewards coming my way. And there’s a part of me that just says, why bother? But then, there’s nothing else in the game. I can’t stand to do another Tequatl kill or Dragon’s stand meta. I’m bored to death of open-world content.

You don’t like the game’s reward structure
You don’t like the people you’ll be playing with
You don’t like the content you’ll be playing

Perhaps you can explain to us why exactly you’re playing this game and not one that suits you better.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

OP here,

I think my post needs a little more explanation. So here’s where I’m coming from. I geared my character up because I wanted to eventually do ambitious content, and be able to really contribute to the effort. I didn’t want to be “that person” who was playing a DPS class, and doing less damage than non-dps characters. So I spent a good bit of time addressing that first obstacle in my way.

But, of course, there’s SOOOO much more to it than just gearing up your character. After you have all your gear, then you need to jump into the content and actually learn the intricacies of each encounter (i.e. learn to play). That’s pretty much where I am right now. And I’m finding that, a lot of times, I’m very hesitant to really push out of my comfort-zone, because people are terribly impatient with group-members who do dumb things or don’t know all the things that they know.

And I just wish there was something left in the game to incentivize the process. But there isn’t. I don’t care about skins and auras because I’ve already (painstakingly) chosen a great look that I have no desire to change. I don’t care about miniatures, or guild-decorations, or achievement-points, because they’re utterly irrelevant to what I want to do in the game. I don’t care about mastery points because I already have all the ones that will ever matter. And I don’t care about legendaries because they’re functionally identical to their ascended counterparts.

So I’m just looking at this stomach-churning grind through the content, with temperamental people who are way more skilled/experienced than me and with no actual rewards coming my way. And there’s a part of me that just says, why bother? But then, there’s nothing else in the game. I can’t stand to do another Tequatl kill or Dragon’s stand meta. I’m bored to death of open-world content.

I’m not sure you even understand the illusion of s gear grind. What rewards are you looking for exactly then if not gear? What other options are there? There is nothing special about gear grind and in most mmorpgs they are cosmetic as well except you have the boring gear treadmill illusion.

Now if you suggested unique class gear that had unique procs, abilities, or improved certain abilities if that class only then you would be onto something.

I can get behind class unique sets just not gear treadmills.

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Posted by: Fallesafe.5932

Fallesafe.5932

So in other words, you’re asking for the game to be changed from a cosmetic based game to a gear grind game because you need an extra incentive to play with “temperamental people who are more skilled than you”?

Nooooo. Not a good reason to change one of the few non geargrind games to yet one more treadmill game. May I suggest you find a guild with members you enjoy playing with instead of revamping the game to suit your individual wishes?

Edit: that’s actually a very interesting thing you’ve said OP

(Snip)
So I’m just looking at this stomach-churning grind through the content, with temperamental people who are way more skilled/experienced than me and with no actual rewards coming my way. And there’s a part of me that just says, why bother? But then, there’s nothing else in the game. I can’t stand to do another Tequatl kill or Dragon’s stand meta. I’m bored to death of open-world content.

You don’t like the game’s reward structure
You don’t like the people you’ll be playing with
You don’t like the content you’ll be playing

Perhaps you can explain to us why exactly you’re playing this game and not one that suits you better.

Fair enough questions. I do find that reaching new levels in the content is extremely rewarding (best part of the game so far actually). But that enjoyment is tempered by the fact that:

1) It can also be miserable and stressful.
2) There’s literally nothing else that I’ll ever get for my character that I want from it.

And I think there’s a bit of a false dilemma where “gear-treadmills” are concerned. The thinking seems to be that you either let everything be obtainable through PUG silverwaste farms… or you resign yourself to the cruel “tricks” of a greedy company that wants you to sign your life away to have any fun in their game. But there’s absolutely a middle ground.

If (for example), it’s possible to get a maximum of 3025 unbuffed power though equipment and consumables, how about putting 25 points of that gear in T4 fractals, and 25 points of it in the first raid wing? You still have the same maximum of 3025. All you’ve done is incentivized people to work though two massive components of the game to get it. And if somebody chose not to do it, they’d be hardly any worse off for the decision.

It’s not unreasonable to want something satisfying for the effort you put in. If jumping puzzles were your thing, how do you think it would effect puzzle-jumping to see a fireworks animation at the end (and that’s it)? How many people do you think would keep doing the jumping puzzles?

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

The franchise of gw and gw2 has always been a cosmetic, mini pet and title reward game and the chances that you’ll get the game’s reward structure overhauled to suit your wishes is low, or even nonexistent considering it’s not a request that the majority of the other players want. Essentially you’ll have to either learn to like the rewards that the game gives, learn to ignore rewards in this game or find a game that suits you better. It’s up to you because the game isn’t going to become a gear grind game anytime soon, if ever.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

I like the way GW2 works and I don’t propose we change it. However, all design decisions come with consequences and I can agree that the lack of a treadmill, while a great idea for many reasons, can make the game feel a bit aimless and unrewarding at times.

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Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

Before the big nerf to PvP, PvP used to give unique finishers /rank and titles for completing X level.

Finishers are still there …

I like the way GW2 works and I don’t propose we change it. However, all design decisions come with consequences and I can agree that the lack of a treadmill, while a great idea for many reasons, can make the game feel a bit aimless and unrewarding at times.

Really? In what way is a gear treadmill rewarding?

(edited by Khisanth.2948)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

It’s not unreasonable to want something satisfying for the effort you put in. If jumping puzzles were your thing, how do you think it would effect puzzle-jumping to see a fireworks animation at the end (and that’s it)? How many people do you think would keep doing the jumping puzzles?

I think the person you quoted was less on about why you play games (or why rewards may or may not be desirable), but why you play this MMORPG.

It’s hardly the only one. And multiple others have continuous piecemeal reward systems or stealing upgrading grindable gear improvements.

Just not GW2. Yet this is the one you play.

I don’t mean this in a “get out!”-way, btw. Really not. Because the question has merit, why pick the MMO which specifically doesn’t do what you seem to want in a MMO?

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: kdaddy.5431

kdaddy.5431

Before the big nerf to PvP, PvP used to give unique finishers /rank and titles for completing X level.

Finishers are still there …

I like the way GW2 works and I don’t propose we change it. However, all design decisions come with consequences and I can agree that the lack of a treadmill, while a great idea for many reasons, can make the game feel a bit aimless and unrewarding at times.

Really? In what way is a gear treadmill rewarding?

It is but its a little different now.

Before if you saw a player with a shark or Phoenix finisher you knew they put work in to get those finishers. With shark needing 250,000 experience per level and now its 20,000.

Everyone has all the finishers because Anet made it PvE accessible.

Why is that bad? I assume thats why you quoted me, well what does a PvP player with 7k + matches play for?

Its a good question because alot of them are not playing. Thus why i added it to no rewards for high level content.

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

I think there is already quite some pushback on certain gear only being available in select content. I’m not sure that idea would be popular.

I think one of the main draws of the game is that, for the most part, gear/stats are universally available, and cosmetic items are what is placed behind content/Gem Store/etc.

Regardless, good luck.

Hmm, post removed…that’s what I get for not quoting. Sigh.

For pete’s sake, now the post is below this one. Geez, silly forum.

(edited by Inculpatus cedo.9234)

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Posted by: Fallesafe.5932

Fallesafe.5932

I think the person you quoted was less on about why you play games (or why rewards may or may not be desirable), but why you play this MMORPG.

Well… because it suits me very well, and I think it’s an awesome game. I’m not trying to salvage a game that I think is broken. I’m trying to suggest a way to make a great game even better. And it doesn’t have to be through ANY sort of an item treadmill at all. The suggestion I made in the last post was to have stats that can only go so high (and never higher). But place a tiny portion of those stats in T4 fractals and the first raid wing.

You still have your ETERNAL stat-ceiling. But you also have a small incentive to push yourself through content that requires a lot of effort. So, the example I gave was that, if the highest you can get your unbuffed power was 3027… put gear accounting for 25 points of that total in T4 fractals, and gear accounting for 25 points of that total in the first raid wing.

And, if somebody chose not to do either, they’d still be practically identical to someone who did (and capable of all the same encounters). Then, if an expansion comes out, the stat-ceiling is STILL 3027. But 25 points worth of it is found in some of the new content as well (i.e. more options to do the same thing). Hardly a “gear treadmill.”

For pete’s sake, now the post is below this one. Geez, silly forum.

Sorry, I double-posted and had to delete/repost.

(edited by Fallesafe.5932)

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

Slapping some arbitrary stats on gear does not make them more of an incentive than just achievements titles and cosmetic looks.

in fact, someone having slightly more stats than someone else is just as meaningful as someone wearing different clothes that say “I finished this part of the game”.

Plus increasing stats even further would make it so the next raid would need a bigger increase in stats to gain the same amount of incentive, if that is a goal to set anyway. Because if you did the previous raid and got that increased stat gear then the next will have little to no reward if the stat increase is the same.

This is not looking at how the gear looks what achievement it has or what effect it has, because clearly that is already in the game.

The added value of increased stats on gear is very limited, all it does is set the ceiling higher, while making raids arbitrarily easier because of the stat increase, or arbitrarily harder without said gear tier if raids would need to keep in mind said gear tier.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Let me give you some perspective.
I believe raiders have been extremely lucky that Anet needs to relearn that ever increasing difficulty, and reward, is unsustainable. They learned it once from the first year personal story but game control changed hands.

Here’s what you would have gotten in the past. The rewards for raiding would be simply standing on a leader board. That leader board would have levels. Each level gives you better standing and additional permanent AGONY in everything you do. That would be the only reward.

Accept that challenge and show how good you really are.

Not saying you bought your way to play difficult content instead of earning it but it seems like it. That makes you miss 90% of the fun of the game.

Raiding gear is in no way better than gear from any other part of the game. Not sure what you are refering to. Unless you consider legendary armor an upgrasde to ascended, which from a pure stat perspective it is not.

Leaderboards were out the window the moment arenanet noticed how little interest people have in them with adventures.

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Posted by: BunjiKugashira.9754

BunjiKugashira.9754

I don’t understand people who ask for stat progression. I used to play a mmo that had gear progression right when it released. I ran some dungeons and got pretty good gear. The difference between my gear and the theoretically best gear was about as big as the difference between exotic and ascended gear.

And then an update came with new areas, new level cap and new gear. At first I was like “yeah, new content”, but when I hit the new level cap and realized I would have to do all the grinding again to get good gear, I just “temporarily” quit. Currently I’m waiting until the devs have implemented their final level increase and final gear increase before going back. Until then the community probably left and I won’t be playing longer than a week.

Gear progression can work both ways. It can keep players occupied and it can drive players away. I believe the difference is in the player’s mentality. Players who seek gear progression see progression as their primary game content. Players who loathe gear progression on the other hand see it only as a means to access the content they really want to play. So grinding for gear does not count as playing and is not fun. The fun starts once max gear is acquired and it stops with the next level increase.

Shana Flamewielder
Sylvari Elementalist of [SFF]
Abaddons Maul

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

I like the way GW2 works and I don’t propose we change it. However, all design decisions come with consequences and I can agree that the lack of a treadmill, while a great idea for many reasons, can make the game feel a bit aimless and unrewarding at times.

Really? In what way is a gear treadmill rewarding?

It provides a goal to work toward and a reason to work toward it. Whereas with horizontal progression I’m motivated only by cosmetics. Unless I really want the skin, it does nothing for me. In other words, it feels less rewarding and I don’t feel motivated.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

So grinding for gear does not count as playing and is not fun. The fun starts once max gear is acquired and it stops with the next level increase.

cRPGs are fundamentally built around a continuous power increase. Yes, I generally agree with you, but not in this specific genre.

Even though ofc, yes, GW2 is the one game which foregoes much stat progression but hey, even they added Ascended gear after release. Still, one can notice that GW2 is in large parts a bit hollow. Look how many progression systems we now have in a game which isn’t supposed to have them.

In WvW, you become stronger and stronger as level goes up. In PvE, you have masteries which make much of PvE easier. In sPvP, you… well… no clue what those 25 players left there do. But anyhow, there’s already plenty vertical progression past 80 in place, even with gear. Just compare HoT condi stats to pre-HoT ones. Clear upgrade path there.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Tumult.2578

Tumult.2578

Let me give you some perspective.
I believe raiders have been extremely lucky that Anet needs to relearn that ever increasing difficulty, and reward, is unsustainable. They learned it once from the first year personal story but game control changed hands.

Here’s what you would have gotten in the past. The rewards for raiding would be simply standing on a leader board. That leader board would have levels. Each level gives you better standing and additional permanent AGONY in everything you do. That would be the only reward.

Accept that challenge and show how good you really are.

Not saying you bought your way to play difficult content instead of earning it but it seems like it. That makes you miss 90% of the fun of the game.

Raiding gear is in no way better than gear from any other part of the game. Not sure what you are refering to. Unless you consider legendary armor an upgrasde to ascended, which from a pure stat perspective it is not.

Leaderboards were out the window the moment arenanet noticed how little interest people have in them with adventures.

I didn’t use gear anywhere in my post. Not sure what you are referring to here.
You make it sound like all the raiders have deleted their Legendary armors. Lol.
It’s the reward, clearly established so you know what you are playing for. It is unavailable anywhere else in the game. That makes it a significant reward whether you choose to recognize that value or not. Delete it if it is so inconsequential for you. I would.

As far as leaderboards go, you do understand that there are current leaderboards for structured PvP, WvW Ranking and Acheivements right? I’m not surprised that Anet would drop any extra effort it can, regarding raiding, given the chance. My post talked about what you could have gotten for rewards. Rewards could have been, and in my opinion, should have been, ranking on a leaderboard and the additional Agony you earned with it.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Let me give you some perspective.
I believe raiders have been extremely lucky that Anet needs to relearn that ever increasing difficulty, and reward, is unsustainable. They learned it once from the first year personal story but game control changed hands.

Here’s what you would have gotten in the past. The rewards for raiding would be simply standing on a leader board. That leader board would have levels. Each level gives you better standing and additional permanent AGONY in everything you do. That would be the only reward.

Accept that challenge and show how good you really are.

Not saying you bought your way to play difficult content instead of earning it but it seems like it. That makes you miss 90% of the fun of the game.

Raiding gear is in no way better than gear from any other part of the game. Not sure what you are refering to. Unless you consider legendary armor an upgrasde to ascended, which from a pure stat perspective it is not.

Leaderboards were out the window the moment arenanet noticed how little interest people have in them with adventures.

I didn’t use gear anywhere in my post. Not sure what you are referring to here.
You make it sound like all the raiders have deleted their Legendary armors. Lol.
It’s the reward, clearly established so you know what you are playing for. It is unavailable anywhere else in the game. That makes it a significant reward whether you choose to recognize that value or not. Delete it if it is so inconsequential for you. I would.

As far as leaderboards go, you do understand that there are current leaderboards for structured PvP, WvW Ranking and Acheivements right? I’m not surprised that Anet would drop any extra effort it can, regarding raiding, given the chance. My post talked about what you could have gotten for rewards. Rewards could have been, and in my opinion, should have been, ranking on a leaderboard and the additional Agony you earned with it.

You are equaling reward with stat progression. The one makes no sense to argue against, the other I already addressed in my comment about legendary armor. No, I did not make it sound as though legendary armor was getting deleted, I said it provides no stat advantage versus ascended thus not providing power creep, the main topic disscussed in this thread.

You can have ever increasing rewards in a game, as long as they are not affecting game balance.

As a matter of fact, all the spvp and wvw changes made and coming are an increase in rewards to the game modes.

So no, raid rewards are fine. Ideally spvp and wvw will get their own set of unique rewards just like fractals have, spvp already has and the way arenanet has been creating incentives to play all the game modes in GW2.

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Posted by: Tumult.2578

Tumult.2578

Yes, power creep is a secondary matter being discussed but the thread is about reward for higher level content. That is what I responded to. Stat progression has nothing to do with my post. I am not equaling reward with stat progression at all.
Whether the reward has better or worse stats, and those effects on the game in general is not significant to the discussion on the value of the reward itself. It is a valuable discussion on it’s own, but not pertinent to the actual reward Anet decided to give.

I suspect we would agree on stat progression but that is simply not the issue, or value in Legendary Armor. Exclusivity is, whether it’s recognized or not.

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Posted by: Will.9785

Will.9785

I agree that high level content is not rewarding… but do you know why you feel that way? Its because you needed to get the end level items (ascended gear) before you could even do that content.

The reward structure in this game falls apart between exotic and ascended items.

It can be incredibly difficult to get your first ascended set. Heck, the game rarely even throws exotic items your way. You are pretty much forced to grind whatever flavor of the month money meta there is to build a stockpile of gold and then craft your items rather than finding them in the world.

If anything ascended items (and legendary items) need to have more ways of being obtained. Like take dungeons for example, they are pretty much dead. Why not add ascended items to those vendors?

And I know this won’t be a popular opinion but raids should be a little easier (to discourage elitism and make them more pug friendly) and give you tokens that you can use to buy legendary items. That way they would have some sort of tangible rewards outside of the legendary armor which for a lot of folks doesn’t even look that good.

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

I think the person you quoted was less on about why you play games (or why rewards may or may not be desirable), but why you play this MMORPG.

Well… because it suits me very well, and I think it’s an awesome game. I’m not trying to salvage a game that I think is broken. I’m trying to suggest a way to make a great game even better. And it doesn’t have to be through ANY sort of an item treadmill at all. The suggestion I made in the last post was to have stats that can only go so high (and never higher). But place a tiny portion of those stats in T4 fractals and the first raid wing.

You still have your ETERNAL stat-ceiling. But you also have a small incentive to push yourself through content that requires a lot of effort. So, the example I gave was that, if the highest you can get your unbuffed power was 3027… put gear accounting for 25 points of that total in T4 fractals, and gear accounting for 25 points of that total in the first raid wing.

And, if somebody chose not to do either, they’d still be practically identical to someone who did (and capable of all the same encounters). Then, if an expansion comes out, the stat-ceiling is STILL 3027. But 25 points worth of it is found in some of the new content as well (i.e. more options to do the same thing). Hardly a “gear treadmill.”

For pete’s sake, now the post is below this one. Geez, silly forum.

Sorry, I double-posted and had to delete/repost.

What would you do after you had earned the 25 points in the first raid wing and the 25 points in fractals? How would you expect to continue to be rewarded?

If horizontal or cosmetic rewards will not mitivate you, if playing for the fun of playing is insufficient (I dont fault you for this as I like to feel rewarded for my efforts as well), in short, if only power increase however small, will make you feel rewarded for playing, and if you need to feel rewarded to have fun…then how will a one time reward, now, keep you going?

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Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

Before if you saw a player with a shark or Phoenix finisher you knew they put work in to get those finishers. With shark needing 250,000 experience per level and now its 20,000.

Actually the only things that came to mind was ..

1) wow … someone at ANet can’t seem to do basic arithmetic
2) must have spent a lot of time grinding in custom arenas

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Posted by: Fancypants.9705

Fancypants.9705

Sounds like all the OP wants is another Asian grind fest… there are plenty off those out there so go have fun.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

Wrong game, wrong forum.

Try BDO, BnS, WoW, SWToR, FFXIV, Archage, insert any number of other mainstream MMOs currently on the market.

out of those games i have played, yeah i will agree that they overall do a way better job incentivizing their gameplay. Also note that bns, wow, and ffxiv are currently out performing gw2.

like i said, i dont think gear treadmill should be gw2 answer to this problem. But it is a problem that every game must deal with and solve.

See there’s a problem with pointing out games outperforming GW 2. SWTOR has gear grind and doesn’t out perform Guild Wars 2, same with BDO and ESO.

WoW outperforms everyone because it can advertise on a level no other game can. When Guild Wars 2 has William Shatner, and Mr T in their commericals, we can add it to the same conversation. No evidence at all that WoW is where it is because of a gear treadmill as opposed to spending millions on advertising. Last I saw there was no Guild Wars movie.

Final Fantasy also does some big advertising. They advertised at Wrestlemania for example. It’s a very old, very popular franchise. It is, after all, Final Fantasy XIV. There was also a Final Fantasy movie. And I’m not convinced it’s doing better in the west, which is key. Take a game like Lineage, which is doing better than Guild Wars 2, but they brought it out in the west and it died. It’s doing better than Guild Wars 2 because it’s more popular in the east. The west more likely has less players. Blade and Soul is doing well but again, it’s also more popular in the East, where it’s made it’s name.

The fact is, out of Western MMOs, or doing well in the West. I’m convinced it would be WoW, which is in a class by itself and always has been, followed by Guild Wars 2…which didn’t make it in the East, because a gear treadmill is expected there.

It’s hard to say that Guild Wars 2 isn’t doing better in those games in the West…which is where I live and the kind of game I want to play. And apparently it’s the main target market for the game.

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Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

Well… because it suits me very well, and I think it’s an awesome game. I’m not trying to salvage a game that I think is broken. I’m trying to suggest a way to make a great game even better. And it doesn’t have to be through ANY sort of an item treadmill at all. The suggestion I made in the last post was to have stats that can only go so high (and never higher). But place a tiny portion of those stats in T4 fractals and the first raid wing.

You still have your ETERNAL stat-ceiling. But you also have a small incentive to push yourself through content that requires a lot of effort. So, the example I gave was that, if the highest you can get your unbuffed power was 3027… put gear accounting for 25 points of that total in T4 fractals, and gear accounting for 25 points of that total in the first raid wing.

So what happens after people complete that? Realize that you’ve just spent dev time to accomplish absolutely nothing?

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Posted by: PaxTheGreatOne.9472

PaxTheGreatOne.9472

<snip>


I have FUN playing this game, and with this community, being the best reward of all


In the end you play a game because you like it. Which will be your game’s reward.

You kind of kill your own argument there. You said ascended gear but thats not unique. Actually ascended gear is handed out like candy out of a van now. Anyone who walks up to it can get a piece as long as they jump into the van.

At the end you write about all your ascended gear, guess what i have 9 characters and they have all ascended gear too and i havent even played HOT that much.

Ascneded gear is STILL for a lot of people progression to a new set, or a new set for their alts. Yes, I have 22 lvl 80’s and 27 armor sets and a 2,5 bank tabs for of legendary stuff I do not use… But I played this game 11.5K hours. Understand there is a difference between the ppl having 1 character, players who play 5 characters and the whales with 20+ characters… I have ppl in the guild owning 100 k gold… what do you think is still valuable to them? legendaries? ascnededs? They can buy a slot for gold make a charactar, equip it with full bought legendaries and ascnededs and start at lvl 1 story instance with opening their perm merchant and spamlevelling their lvl 1 char to 80 and walk into the instance with legendary armor on their 0% world completion characters.

For PvP you wrote titles legendaries and pre’s? If you could explain please. Because you only get unique armor if win TOL events. Anyone could get the legendary titles S1-4 which is way the PvP community was so upset. Like i had friends who were in bronze3-S1 who got there legendary titles and i didnt play S4 so they have a title i didnt get and i was in Plat 2 in S5 for a bit.

Oh yes tribal, apostle, stalwart, studded, marauder, heavy scale armors fom reward tracks are forgooten easy, and the fact you need to be top 10 to get something dopesn’t mean it’s impossible, well to me it is, cause I alrady stated I suck at PvP, but who knows…

WvW just got new stuff so way to be 2 years ahead of the curve there.

And there are ppl already at rank 9999… with a few 100000 kills in WvW…
I have been there a while beofre HoT came out and ground my 1st 900 or so ranks.

Now raids, i give it up to ya. raids got all the goodies, all the end game stuff. I agree here+1.

Yes legendary armors.. Epic… but as ascneded is so rewadily available it’s pointless as well. remember this when you are planning to gear your character in 1800 gold worth of legendary armor whcih can be stat swapped, but probebly never will… I have my 7 other legendaries an only 1 of those swapped a few times,

But everything you named was random RNG skins, drops or titles you get from finishing a JP.

Good luck getting Yakslapper…

That isnt high level content. For instance i didnt play much of S6 in PvP but i did not finish in the top 250 for S5 with a rating of 1708. In Season 6 i would of been in the top 100-150. Once again the community is looking at Anet as really? The killed the rewards and made PvP rewards more PvE with crafting so serious PvP players couldnt even make the items.

I doubt it matters much is stuff is roughly comparable in prices.. I got my free PvP armor as well, like 2/3rds of the player base at the time…

Got to look at it from the other side as if you didnt have a van with candy

And what do you consider higher lvl content?

  • CM’s? Raids? CM raids? You will struggle the 1st (few) time(s), and afterwards you’ll only struggle with new(er) players…
  • t4’s and fractals? it’s pretty average… since the potions became mandatory t4 is like t3….. meta made things all generic, and not higher level…
  • top tier PvP?
    Well no real prizes here anymore… the content is as good as the meta I guess, no skill or higher levl play…
  • WvW?
    Well ppl have been butchering ppl here for the past 4 + years, some guilds used to do this with full asc vs the exotic plebs, now with full asc vs full asc, but most real high level ppl are EotM karma farmers… we sometimes did some EotM with my old WvW guild and we took 12-20 ppl into EotM and destroyed groups up to 60 ppl showing this has no value either.

So in the end we get ascnededs being top tier gear as rewards, with legendaries being ascnededs with a different color. Some skins, and maybe a title. Yes. For content. Yes.

As long as it’s fun, and stays fun: you play; higfher level reeards is the fact you have a little more pleasure in finishing. when you did lvl 100 CM and the W4 CM’s just move into caledon forest and finish the map. Compare the rewards.

You play games to have FUN, the ONLY reward

23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.

(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

I don’t understand people who ask for stat progression. I used to play a mmo that had gear progression right when it released. I ran some dungeons and got pretty good gear. The difference between my gear and the theoretically best gear was about as big as the difference between exotic and ascended gear.

And then an update came with new areas, new level cap and new gear. At first I was like “yeah, new content”, but when I hit the new level cap and realized I would have to do all the grinding again to get good gear, I just “temporarily” quit. Currently I’m waiting until the devs have implemented their final level increase and final gear increase before going back. Until then the community probably left and I won’t be playing longer than a week.

Gear progression can work both ways. It can keep players occupied and it can drive players away. I believe the difference is in the player’s mentality. Players who seek gear progression see progression as their primary game content. Players who loathe gear progression on the other hand see it only as a means to access the content they really want to play. So grinding for gear does not count as playing and is not fun. The fun starts once max gear is acquired and it stops with the next level increase.

But in most rpgs your getting new abilities masteries are lore unique and not really about getting more powerful but instead adda other ways to play like in most rpgs there is no excuse for mmorpgs with nothing but gear grind at the end it’s just a cheap way to get people to come back.

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

Wrong game, wrong forum.

Try BDO, BnS, WoW, SWToR, FFXIV, Archage, insert any number of other mainstream MMOs currently on the market.

out of those games i have played, yeah i will agree that they overall do a way better job incentivizing their gameplay. Also note that bns, wow, and ffxiv are currently out performing gw2.

like i said, i dont think gear treadmill should be gw2 answer to this problem. But it is a problem that every game must deal with and solve.

See there’s a problem with pointing out games outperforming GW 2. SWTOR has gear grind and doesn’t out perform Guild Wars 2, same with BDO and ESO.

WoW outperforms everyone because it can advertise on a level no other game can. When Guild Wars 2 has William Shatner, and Mr T in their commericals, we can add it to the same conversation. No evidence at all that WoW is where it is because of a gear treadmill as opposed to spending millions on advertising. Last I saw there was no Guild Wars movie.

Final Fantasy also does some big advertising. They advertised at Wrestlemania for example. It’s a very old, very popular franchise. It is, after all, Final Fantasy XIV. There was also a Final Fantasy movie. And I’m not convinced it’s doing better in the west, which is key. Take a game like Lineage, which is doing better than Guild Wars 2, but they brought it out in the west and it died. It’s doing better than Guild Wars 2 because it’s more popular in the east. The west more likely has less players. Blade and Soul is doing well but again, it’s also more popular in the East, where it’s made it’s name.

The fact is, out of Western MMOs, or doing well in the West. I’m convinced it would be WoW, which is in a class by itself and always has been, followed by Guild Wars 2…which didn’t make it in the East, because a gear treadmill is expected there.

It’s hard to say that Guild Wars 2 isn’t doing better in those games in the West…which is where I live and the kind of game I want to play. And apparently it’s the main target market for the game.

The only reason wow appealed because it appealed to non gamers most people who started wow had no idea the depth of other mmorpgs out at the time and what they offered.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

Wrong game, wrong forum.

Try BDO, BnS, WoW, SWToR, FFXIV, Archage, insert any number of other mainstream MMOs currently on the market.

out of those games i have played, yeah i will agree that they overall do a way better job incentivizing their gameplay. Also note that bns, wow, and ffxiv are currently out performing gw2.

like i said, i dont think gear treadmill should be gw2 answer to this problem. But it is a problem that every game must deal with and solve.

See there’s a problem with pointing out games outperforming GW 2. SWTOR has gear grind and doesn’t out perform Guild Wars 2, same with BDO and ESO.

WoW outperforms everyone because it can advertise on a level no other game can. When Guild Wars 2 has William Shatner, and Mr T in their commericals, we can add it to the same conversation. No evidence at all that WoW is where it is because of a gear treadmill as opposed to spending millions on advertising. Last I saw there was no Guild Wars movie.

Final Fantasy also does some big advertising. They advertised at Wrestlemania for example. It’s a very old, very popular franchise. It is, after all, Final Fantasy XIV. There was also a Final Fantasy movie. And I’m not convinced it’s doing better in the west, which is key. Take a game like Lineage, which is doing better than Guild Wars 2, but they brought it out in the west and it died. It’s doing better than Guild Wars 2 because it’s more popular in the east. The west more likely has less players. Blade and Soul is doing well but again, it’s also more popular in the East, where it’s made it’s name.

The fact is, out of Western MMOs, or doing well in the West. I’m convinced it would be WoW, which is in a class by itself and always has been, followed by Guild Wars 2…which didn’t make it in the East, because a gear treadmill is expected there.

It’s hard to say that Guild Wars 2 isn’t doing better in those games in the West…which is where I live and the kind of game I want to play. And apparently it’s the main target market for the game.

no, ffxiv is doing just as well in the west than in the east. it has 32 na and eu servers and 32 jp servers.

https://ffxivcensus.com/

all of wows advertising would not work if people did not want to come back. I will not claim that gw2 is great at marketing, but while im sure advertising is a factor, it is not the only factor

you talk about these games in abstract, speaking of the ones i have played, and speaking directly to how rewarding it feels to beat endgame content, they are well above gw2.

GW2 has things it does better than them, proper balance of reward, and incentives is not one of them.

this is something gw2 designers and devs need to explore. Like i said, they cant and shouldnt use those other games answers to the question, but they need to come up with something to make it feel better to do things other than farm whatever cash meta is currently the most efficient

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Posted by: Djinn.9245

Djinn.9245

I did some more thinking and I think that being equals is not fun. Guild Wars 2 tries to give everybody the same opportunities. This is boring. I remember playing a MMORPG called Cabal Online. I used to farm a spot for hours and hours. Why? Because I knew that spot could drop one of the most powerful weapons in game, that only a handful of people have. Guild Wars 2 lacks the possibility to be more powerful than everybody else. You can be more ’ skilled’ but IMO there is not that much skill involved in playing Guild Wars 2, there is not enough build diversity to facilitate this type of gameplay. This is just some speculation, though. I am just trying to think about WHY this type of gameplay is boring for me and apparently for OP and WHY we want something more.

tl:dr: being equals is not fun, the fun is in being different, there has to be a king and someone who dreams to someday become that king. I think.

There are already many ways of being “different” in GW2. Including getting one of the very rare items, they just don’t make you more powerful than everyone else.

You are absolutely right. I ment power specific items, my bad.

IMO, a game should not have any way for only a small number of players to be more powerful than the rest.

it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

I agree that high level content is not rewarding… but do you know why you feel that way? Its because you needed to get the end level items (ascended gear) before you could even do that content.

The reward structure in this game falls apart between exotic and ascended items.

Only if you define increasingly better gear as the only reward in the game. You see, the difference between most gear slots from exotic and ascended gear is INTENTIONALLY small because Anet does not want people to focus on gear as a reward to playing the game in the sense that you are rewarded with better performance. In otherwords, if the increase in performance is insignificant (for most cases) between exotic and ascended gear, then reasonable players wouldn’t associate that jump as a THE reward they are after in the first place.

It’s a very smart approach, only if you can break yourself of the idea that game rewards have to be related to gear stats increases in the first place. That’s easy if you have a deeper understanding of why you play THIS game.

IMO, a game should not have any way for only a small number of players to be more powerful than the rest.

Good thing that GW2 doesn’t do that; every player has access to the activities that reward players. The only restriction to getting gear in this game is the individual player.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

Wrong game, wrong forum.

Try BDO, BnS, WoW, SWToR, FFXIV, Archage, insert any number of other mainstream MMOs currently on the market.

out of those games i have played, yeah i will agree that they overall do a way better job incentivizing their gameplay. Also note that bns, wow, and ffxiv are currently out performing gw2.

like i said, i dont think gear treadmill should be gw2 answer to this problem. But it is a problem that every game must deal with and solve.

See there’s a problem with pointing out games outperforming GW 2. SWTOR has gear grind and doesn’t out perform Guild Wars 2, same with BDO and ESO.

WoW outperforms everyone because it can advertise on a level no other game can. When Guild Wars 2 has William Shatner, and Mr T in their commericals, we can add it to the same conversation. No evidence at all that WoW is where it is because of a gear treadmill as opposed to spending millions on advertising. Last I saw there was no Guild Wars movie.

Final Fantasy also does some big advertising. They advertised at Wrestlemania for example. It’s a very old, very popular franchise. It is, after all, Final Fantasy XIV. There was also a Final Fantasy movie. And I’m not convinced it’s doing better in the west, which is key. Take a game like Lineage, which is doing better than Guild Wars 2, but they brought it out in the west and it died. It’s doing better than Guild Wars 2 because it’s more popular in the east. The west more likely has less players. Blade and Soul is doing well but again, it’s also more popular in the East, where it’s made it’s name.

The fact is, out of Western MMOs, or doing well in the West. I’m convinced it would be WoW, which is in a class by itself and always has been, followed by Guild Wars 2…which didn’t make it in the East, because a gear treadmill is expected there.

It’s hard to say that Guild Wars 2 isn’t doing better in those games in the West…which is where I live and the kind of game I want to play. And apparently it’s the main target market for the game.

no, ffxiv is doing just as well in the west than in the east. it has 32 na and eu servers and 32 jp servers.

https://ffxivcensus.com/

all of wows advertising would not work if people did not want to come back. I will not claim that gw2 is great at marketing, but while im sure advertising is a factor, it is not the only factor

you talk about these games in abstract, speaking of the ones i have played, and speaking directly to how rewarding it feels to beat endgame content, they are well above gw2.

GW2 has things it does better than them, proper balance of reward, and incentives is not one of them.

this is something gw2 designers and devs need to explore. Like i said, they cant and shouldnt use those other games answers to the question, but they need to come up with something to make it feel better to do things other than farm whatever cash meta is currently the most efficient

I’m not talking about games in abstract at all. It’s factually true that there are two IPs that have very big names due to number of titles and advertising, who charge a monthly fee. You can’t say that FF XIV is doing better than Guild Wars 2 as far as playerbase in the west with any authority or if you can, I’d like to see some evidence of it. I do believe over all, east and west combined, it is doing better, but I’m not so sure it’s doing better in the west.

But I also don’t believe it was doing better a year ago, or the year before that. It has had a bit of a resurgence in the last year.

WoW has had an expansion since Heart of Thorns came out. Final Fantasy XIV has an expansion you can preorder now.

But saying these games are doing so much better…well by that standard, WOW is doing way better than Final Fantasy XIV. Yes the both have gear grind. How do you account for that difference?

It’s just a kittenumption to take any one aspect of a game and say that’s the main reason it’s doing well.

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

I do not know about everyone else but I certainly have enjoyed this discussion it is the first one in a long time I have truly enjoyed, thanks for that.

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Posted by: Rasimir.6239

Rasimir.6239

I agree that high level content is not rewarding… but do you know why you feel that way? Its because you needed to get the end level items (ascended gear) before you could even do that content.

As a matter of fact, you don’t. If you play fractals, you’ll likely have all the resources in place to get and upgrade your ascended equipment by the time you reach the fractal levels that require that much agony resistance. If you play raids, you can in fact play them just as well in exotics if you know what you’re doing.

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

I’d easily believe FFXIV is outperforming Guild Wars 2 everywhere. It’s Final kitten Fantasy. You can’t beat that franchise in popularity.

World of Warcraft has a powerful network effect behind it keeping it going (I suspect it’s not gaining a lot of ‘new’ players, due to its age, except from a few who still wonder what the fuss is about. Most are friends or family of those who’ve been playing for years), and was launched on the back of a wildly popular RTS series to provide an instant fanbase, and made itself accessible at a time MMOs really weren’t.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I think one important difference is that both FF14 and WoW are subscription driven games.

I played 8 years of WoW initially, and recently tried a free month of FF14, and they both feel significantly more polished and actively developed. But, being subscription based, that is quite expected, as there is a lot of more dependable income to move around for development purposes.

So in a certain way it is disappointing to see GW2 be developed so slowly (lack of treadmill rewards wouldn’t be a big issue with faster development), but at the same time because it is also much better value than WoW or FF14 because I pay significantly less here.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.