Guild Wars 2

Sorry your ad hominem isn’t going to work this time. You see I have done everything in the game save for PVP. I’ve done fractals, I’ve done dungeons, I’ve done open world. It’s the same all around, That #1 spam exists in all facets of the game, it’s not limited to 1 medium of combat because the essential design of the combat is flawed and not diverse enough, When they posted the feature patch for example, we were to expect new traits that gave us changes to skills we already had, we’ve not seen more of those since that patch. You can try and make it sound like I don’t know what I’m talking about but the more you do the more holes I’ll find in your argument because this kind of thing isn’t something you sweep under the rug with colorful words (as has happened with loot and content updates) combat is essential to the game, it takes 5 minutes of playing a fully geared max level character to realize that there’s alot missing especially if you’re like me and you’ve had years of mmo experience. (and there are plenty who have had years of experience playing as well as studying mmo design who agree).

This problem isn’t the mobs it’s very much a problem with the state of the design of combat. In the beginning when we made these arguments against such a weak combat design people were all like “give it time the game is new” Well it’s not new now, they have the means to make it more complex and thus diverse, and they have the means to add traits to include new skills into the game we’ve just not seen it.

Even at the most basic level, saying that there’s nothing wrong with combat, is absolutely fundamentally wrong and missing the point. WoW has more complex combat than GW2 and that’s saying something right there.

So you are doing Fractals with 1 spam, even at lower tiers? Now I know you are trolling or you are just ignorant, or at the very least got carried by superior players when you did what you said you did.

Jerus.4350:

But there is diversity in BUILDS, just not in your gear. Gear is simply a slider on offensive potential vs defensive potential. If you don’t need that passive defense well, why not go zerk? There is no power gained by making yourself tanky, and well… why should there be? it’s making the game easier by making you more durable.

Where diversity lies is in your trait choices and weapons mostly, then to a lesser degree your runes/sigils.

There are lots of viable options for trait setups, utilities, and weapon choices. Some clearly more suited for different situations than others but there are options.

Looking at say guardian. I have a base setup of the 45005 with GS/Sword+Focus. But, I can swap in mace giving some healing and a block. I can go Scepter for range damage or actually top damage against large enemies that don’t move around. I can also slot in Hammer and change to a 55040 trait setup and nearly match the damage potential, even simply camping hammer while getting perma protection in case people screw up or just happen to be taking damage. Then say I don’t need all that utility of the 45005 setup, I can go 46202 to pull out more damage. I could also go fully supportive with a 35042 hammer build, or even more so with 33044 covering condis, perma protection and master of consecrations for reflects and what not. The amount of builds I can use is decently large. The amount of gear choices remains pretty much 1 though, but why is that a problem?

I really feel that people need to get over the idea that other games have trained them to believe that gear = build. That’s not GW2, traits = build would be close, but even then it’s more than just a single element of the build, traits + weapon + Utilities + runes + sigils + gear = build.

Look at Ele, staff ele will top your damage with multiple trait variations depending on the situation. However you’re likely going to want the Scepter+LH option if you’re the only Ele as you get more might stacking opportunities. Or maybe Dagger + Focus to maximize your flexibility while providing decent might and extra utility in Swirling Winds and Obsidian Flesh. And again each of these weapon choices match with multiple different trait setups, each being optimal in different situations.

The diversity is there, the gear diversity isn’t really, but the build diversity is.

Edit: Yeah some bosses are overly simple, and some have such low health that they just /poof, disappear. Look at groups on Spider Queen now, Ele + Glyph of Storms + 2X Ice Bow = bye. Heck Goku soloed it in 11s… But then there are good bosses that make you work. Lupi of course is the prime example. Fire shaman is one I’m a fan of as well. Bosses that last a bit, have attacks that everyone has to be on their toes to avoid, and the attacks having tells that can be seen all together make a good boss imo, GW2 has these, just not enough and they’ve been done so much that they’ve become easy.

I typed a reply, but while I typed the topic was merged, so I lost what I said.

It’s my fault for the poor wording. I did not mean build as in traits and weapons. Rather I meant stats.

Soldier’s gear has saved my neck more times than I can count. I’ve done bosses/champs/events/dungeons where my party wipes, and I end up killing the boss with only 100 hp left. had I had zerker’s I would have had to start ALL over again, because I too would have wiped. I understand that right now, mathematically, Zerker makes the most sense. However, that shouldn’t be the case. All stat combinations should be viable. For example: Healing power has been proven to be very ineffective. Healing power should get a boost so that it becomes viable. Same with toughness. Bosses need to be able to hit harder. Bosses should be an actual challenge, not a race to kill it quickly, though if you can kill it quick, why not.

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Malchior.5732:

No matter what you guys suggest, the meta will always be the fastest and most efficient way to beat something, which will always be the point where you no longer need more defense and can focus everything else into offense; Zerker gear falls into this category.

I can snap the ‘zerker meta’s neck in one step:

• All self-heals base value has been decreased by 15%. The contribution of healing power to these skill has been increased such that at 400 healing power you will see healing results equivalent to their current value with healing power zero. character with healing power greater than 550 will see a slight increase in the effectiveness of these abilities.

Done. Zerker for everyone from the hardest of the hard to the sloppiest of the sloppy is dead. After that it becomes a matter of skill and taste how you want to roll on the spectrum between offense and survivability, but glass cannons (which is a joke, there are NO glass cannons in this game because of the frequency of absolute invulnerability dodging) will actually have a risk great enough to consider backing off on pure DPS stats.

Don’t think for a moment it “can’t be done”. The question is actually does ArenaNet have the desire and the will to implement this or any of the half dozen other ways that come readily to mind to strangling the ‘lone wolf’ meta to death? For the most part they seem happy with a game that lets middling skill players think they are wildly expert through deliberate, deeply entrenched lack of challenge in most content.

So welcome to the new meta: full Clerics. Oh wait you can already go 5 people with full Clerics and faceroll through content, it will only take longer than zerker but it is doable (and easier). Your idea of “fixing” zerker is to nerf zerker so people run only Cleric now? So what, 1 year later we will get posts “Cleric meta”, each year add something new to swap the meta around but effectively solving nothing?

Change should come across all gears… not just Zerk. Glass cannon be made real “glass cannon” i.e. one that hits harder than now but cant heal whatsoever. Bunker can tank anything but cant kill anything. Mobs should be given greater number of weaker attacks to overwhelm dodge/vigor/aegis/blind/etc. Also tie in active defenses to your stats i.e. aegis thrown by zerker lasts one attack mitigating 25% damage with potential boosted retaliation at end or giver’s aegis will last 4 attacks mitigating 50% damage or knight’s aegis lasts 2 attacks mitigating 75% damage & so on. Your gear/point allocation should strengthen/weaken all that you do be it active or passive.

All this is done to dissuade ppl to go all out in a specific build. Your build should reflect your playstyle… not to just blindly put every point in 66xxx for offense or xx66x for defense. A good mix of overall stats should be required for you to succeed alone and should you choose to specialize then find someone else that can balance out your build.

Now that would be a true mix of GW1 build diversity with GW2 dynamic combat system

MikeyGrey.2496:

All this is done to dissuade ppl to go all out in a specific build. Your build should reflect your playstyle… not to just blindly put every point in 66xxx for offense or xx66x for defense. A good mix of overall stats should be required for you to succeed alone and should you choose to specialize then find someone else that can balance out your build.

You do know that there is a lot more to a build than just your gear… Those “Zerkers” are using a good variety of skills (and traits) for various challenges. They DO more than just DPS…

maddoctor.2738:

MikeyGrey.2496:

All this is done to dissuade ppl to go all out in a specific build. Your build should reflect your playstyle… not to just blindly put every point in 66xxx for offense or xx66x for defense. A good mix of overall stats should be required for you to succeed alone and should you choose to specialize then find someone else that can balance out your build.

You do know that there is a lot more to a build than just your gear… Those “Zerkers” are using a good variety of skills (and traits) for various challenges. They DO more than just DPS…

Skills and traits are tied to you point allocation. As for them doing more… that is my point. When you go all out offense, all you should be doing is offense and other abilities should suffer for it

MikeyGrey.2496:

maddoctor.2738:

MikeyGrey.2496:

All this is done to dissuade ppl to go all out in a specific build. Your build should reflect your playstyle… not to just blindly put every point in 66xxx for offense or xx66x for defense. A good mix of overall stats should be required for you to succeed alone and should you choose to specialize then find someone else that can balance out your build.

You do know that there is a lot more to a build than just your gear… Those “Zerkers” are using a good variety of skills (and traits) for various challenges. They DO more than just DPS…

Skills and traits are tied to you point allocation. As for them doing more… that is my point. When you go all out offense, all you should be doing is offense and other abilities should suffer for it

Why? Isn’t it better if players can fullfil multiple roles and be reasonably independent?
That’s the only way to “play how you want” and not wait for some specific role to be filled (old LF Healer posts in other MMORPGs) in order to do content.

maddoctor.2738:

MikeyGrey.2496:

maddoctor.2738:

MikeyGrey.2496:

All this is done to dissuade ppl to go all out in a specific build. Your build should reflect your playstyle… not to just blindly put every point in 66xxx for offense or xx66x for defense. A good mix of overall stats should be required for you to succeed alone and should you choose to specialize then find someone else that can balance out your build.

You do know that there is a lot more to a build than just your gear… Those “Zerkers” are using a good variety of skills (and traits) for various challenges. They DO more than just DPS…

Skills and traits are tied to you point allocation. As for them doing more… that is my point. When you go all out offense, all you should be doing is offense and other abilities should suffer for it

Why? Isn’t it better if players can fullfil multiple roles and be reasonably independent?
That’s the only way to “play how you want” and not wait for some specific role to be filled (old LF Healer posts in other MMORPGs) in order to do content.

As i said in my post before, allocate your gear/points overall properly to be independent. This is for those that go all out to one spectrum. Great offense should have low defense, active or passive (and reverse should apply). Build your character right to do it alone/fill whatever roll you choose or find someone else to compliment your build.

maddoctor.2738:

sunset.3056:

maddoctor.2738:

sunset.3056:

maddoctor.2738:

sunset.3056:

In PvE you can play any set up, any gear choice. This game is so easy that it does not matter what you choose. The only thing that matters, is time…people don’t want to spend 10 minutes kill some boring snore fest boss, they’d rather do it in 20 seconds.

Oh yes it’s so easy to follow the champ trains yes. Or World Bosses.

I’m pretty sure those are easy too.

Oh I agreed with you all those are easy. What about anything else?

With an experienced group, anything is easy. I consider my daily fractal 50s to be quite easy.

So you just spam 1 and faceroll and win right? “Easy” is a big word. By your definition, with an experienced group nothing is hard in any game

You are super defensive to my posts for some odd reason. So I am ending my discussion with this. Yes, this game is easy not because you just press 1 and win. ( because if you’re implying easy=only using 1 button you are surely mistaken) I mean that no matter what button you press you can still win in most situations. I used to play a minion bomber necro, I cleared every dungeon and got up to fractal 30. Then I switched to a staff ele that didn’t know what a might stack was and I was still able to complete every dungeon and get to fractal 50.

So no way was I implying pressing 1= win. Easy to me is no matter what I do, If I faceroll on my keyboard I can win the majority of PvE content. Which I did for the better part of a year and a half. I’m not trying to incite a huge discussion by saying content in this game is easy. This is my opinion of course, not yours.

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Fair enough. I was a very casual player when i played GW1 so i dont really know much about the speedrun tactics used. So ill give you the benefit of the doubt. But that philosophy still holds true for pretty much every other game and it would hold true even in GW1 if it werent possible to have too much damage. And I would of thought in a record you would still only take the minimum defence needed and the rest goes into utility and damage. Because even with being able to spike with a small pool of skills surely you can spike faster with more? You obviously wouldnt take more healers than you need for example. That would be wasteful.

I believe the difference would be in the cost. I didn’t play GW1 but I know that skills cost energy to use and animation to cast. At some point, adding more skills that do damage probably isn’t particularly as useful as, say, adding a skill that helps manage your energy stores or some other type of utility.

In that respect, there is a parallel between CoH and GW1 in that, there is a point where you can have too much damage. Not only do you have limited energy to power these attacks but you also have limited enhancement slots to boost those attacks so it was definitely beneficial to only take the attacks you ~need~ and spread your enhancement slots across your powers in a way that suites your playstyle (more slots on defensive/control skills to keep yourself alive, slots in buff/debuff to support and if you were offensive focused, max slots on the damage skills).

And if GW1 is as close to CoH as I’d imagine, it probably was much more advantageous to make your skills come up faster vs having more of them.

Yeah but its about maximising your damage without hindering yourself via resource management and still being able to survive. The core concept is still there. After all the idea behind speedruns and the meta is to go as fast as possible.

You can go safer and less optimal in casual runs. Which is what people do in both GW1 and GW2 and other games. But the meta always follows that efficiency theory otherwise it wouldnt be the meta.

I really can’t comment because I know very little about GW1 and it’s all second hand (starting to get interested in giving it a shot though). If I were continuing to make assumptions by using parallels with CoH, I’d assume that, with maximizing damage, there’s just multiple avenues to enhance it yet limited resources to do so. I.e. maximizing damage might include mob placement, CC, buffs/debuffs and spike/AoE damage. It’d be difficult to get all that to an optimal level with just one character and if you provide multitudes of either providing said optimizing features or ways to circumvent needing to, that’s where variety comes in. And if you further vary the encounters, you put roadblocks for certain optimized approaches.

And yeah, with all those variables, you can get a meta out of it, but then the cost of assembling that meta is time, time to collect all the players that form the pieces of that meta…or you can simply go with the next best things to get by at a less optimal pace. If you balance these approaches properly, the difference shouldn’t be too wide, with certain approaches being vastly ‘easier’ but slower.

So yeah, varying the encounters is a big step to adding variety, not to usurp the meta, but to close the gap in effectiveness. But I don’t want to downright nerf something to make something else more appealing but if the game is too easy, just making it harder isn’t going to be the sole proper solution as can be attested to people who can do fractal50s without frustration (and to those that can do so easily, bravo!).

Thats why its good in GW2. It doesnt take loads of time to assemble a meta group in GW2. Or atleast close to. Everything works and everyone can find a group quickly. Theres no exclusion other than personal preferences.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

There are different levels of filtering though, someone can lie about being zerk just as well as they can lie about being ‘EXP’.

Zerk especially won’t protect you from your example, because it’s well known and kind of human nature. The guy in brand-new bought zerker gear will kitten up CM2 just as much as the same guy in Magi’s

That’s why you don’t just look at gear.

If party DPS drops – you can suspect a non-zerker.
If someone doesn’t drop as fast as they should in full zerk after getting hit you can know he’s lying and easily kick.

The guy in that brand-new bought zerker gear can’t be more than 5000 AP so as a general rule of thumb try to find people with high AP to play with and you won’t have this problem ( Yes I know you can get terrible people at high AP but there’s a lower chance they’ll be bad than the person who’s sitting at 1000 AP).

-I look forward to everyone telling me about their 500-1500 AP friend who’s absolutely godlike at this game and how my statement is so false-

I never said I filter just by gear – just that it’s one of the criteria.

(emphasis mine)

This is why people hate ‘zerk meta’ folks. You’re immediately in a place where someone not dying is an easy kick. It’s so focused on the theoretical meta that they’ll punish people for not failing.

Simiarly, heartless up there is using the term ‘bads’.

The essence of it comes down to that the thing that makes people mad isn’t the zerker meta itself, it’s that people that insist on the zerker meta are almost inevitably jerks.

Jerus.4350:

But there is diversity in BUILDS, just not in your gear. Gear is simply a slider on offensive potential vs defensive potential. If you don’t need that passive defense well, why not go zerk? There is no power gained by making yourself tanky, and well… why should there be? it’s making the game easier by making you more durable.

Where diversity lies is in your trait choices and weapons mostly, then to a lesser degree your runes/sigils.

Well, if the game is too ‘easy’, what harm would come if that defense<>offense slider from gear was absolute? That is, gear would affect all defensive and offensive capabilities, active or passive. The payoff for high offense would still be great but just more riskier (heck, you can even make it more of a payoff than it is now) and you could even scale back some of the passive effect of defensive stats to make it harder for them.

The target might be aiming for the specialized builds. The hybrid builds would likely give you the capabilities you have now but the spike damage builds would be spikier, the support builds would be more supportive, the condition builds would be more utilitarian with the sliders in between to give you various shades of each blended with others to make various hybrids (i.e. spike/condition build, a support/damage, condition/tanky, etc).

spoj.9672:

Thats why its good in GW2. It doesnt take loads of time to assemble a meta group in GW2. Or atleast close to. Everything works and everyone can find a group quickly. Theres no exclusion other than personal preferences.

But that is the needle in my craw.

Meta is the highly organized, highly rewarded approach. It shouldn’t be simple to assemble. There should be a cost just like going with the runner up composition cost the time/effort to assemble + not being the optimal approach and just like going with a highly lopsided group comes with the cost of weaknesses in ways they can approach an encounter.

The game is too darn easy! And no, I don’t mean (just) the fights because some encounters still gave me trouble. I mean everything involving an encounter. The gear acquisition, survival mechanics, boons, conditions, damage, it’s all handed to you practically.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Really? Thats news to me. I havent seen anything which we cant complete using the meta.

We are already using support and control to survive in the meta.

Can’t is where you got caught up there. GW is designed sot here’s very little a particular build can’t complete.

Much of the mordrem content is harder for zerkers than for other builds:

More Chain CC,
More Chain Condition application,
Special defense and resistance (husk’s high toughness, front armor on threshers)
more rapid attacks to eat things like aegis
content that’s extremely inefficient for groups.
High yield enemy healers
Very stack-unfriendly attack patterns (root attacks from tetragryphs and the healing threshers, spin/ground AE passthrough from the other threshers, the bug swarms from mordrem trolls, the mass retal howl before they nerfed it)

Again, it’s not impossible for them, but it’s just a touch harder… and an oldfashioned stack is idiocy for a multitude of reasons.

Which means that your previous statement was incorrect. They are not designing encounters that the meta doesnt work with. They are just upping the difficulty slightly. Although people are seriously overestimating the danger of mordrem and the new bosses. They are barely any different to what we are used to. The only difference is some condition attacks and high damage attacks on trash mobs which have huge tells. In some ways its even easier because we can see the attacks coming. This is difficult to do when dealing with a large group of molten alliance in the molten fractal. And stacking is still perfectly safe to do. You just have to treat them like you would treat fractal mob groups (CC and blinds).

Mordrem are only hard for people who dont read tells and dont dodge or CC correctly. So it seems people who already run and understand the meta arent really seeing much of a difference in difficulty. But other more casual players are.

No, you see, it doesn’t not work with the ‘meta builds’, it doesn’t work with the ‘meta’.

In the new content zerk/stack isn’t superior, stacking was obviously heavily targeted in the design, it’s almost always a bad idea now. Zerk is kind of bad for some enemies, okay for others (ie hounds are fine now. 2 months ago it was fun watching zerkers killt hemselves on them though).

There is no zerk meta for the newer content

There is in the case of the old content (for people who claim to care about that 5m/run), but there isn’t in the new content.

~~~

Also, I didn’t exactly say that mordrem are hard, I said that they negate the advantages of the zerker meta. And it certainly does. You can still pew pew big numbers if you want, but it isn’t clearly superior or even a time saver.

Leo G.4501:

Jerus.4350:

But there is diversity in BUILDS, just not in your gear. Gear is simply a slider on offensive potential vs defensive potential. If you don’t need that passive defense well, why not go zerk? There is no power gained by making yourself tanky, and well… why should there be? it’s making the game easier by making you more durable.

Where diversity lies is in your trait choices and weapons mostly, then to a lesser degree your runes/sigils.

Well, if the game is too ‘easy’, what harm would come if that defense<>offense slider from gear was absolute? That is, gear would affect all defensive and offensive capabilities, active or passive. The payoff for high offense would still be great but just more riskier (heck, you can even make it more of a payoff than it is now) and you could even scale back some of the passive effect of defensive stats to make it harder for them.

The target might be aiming for the specialized builds. The hybrid builds would likely give you the capabilities you have now but the spike damage builds would be spikier, the support builds would be more supportive, the condition builds would be more utilitarian with the sliders in between to give you various shades of each blended with others to make various hybrids (i.e. spike/condition build, a support/damage, condition/tanky, etc).

At which point we’d be seeing posts about how the “Knight’s meta” needs to end.

Windsagio.1340:

This is why people hate ‘zerk meta’ folks. You’re immediately in a place where someone not dying is an easy kick. It’s so focused on the theoretical meta that they’ll punish people for not failing.

Simiarly, heartless up there is using the term ‘bads’.

The essence of it comes down to that the thing that makes people mad isn’t the zerker meta itself, it’s that people that insist on the zerker meta are almost inevitably jerks.

Quite true. Meta build parties are almost always made up of whingers and control freaks, and I find they’re only marginally more efficient than groups with a more relaxed DPS spec.

On topic though, it seems like too many people ignore the bottom line of this suggestion. Namely, will it truly change the meta and add value to the game?

And of course it won’t. The only foreseeable results of a change are (a) content takes longer to complete and/or (b) there’s a new go-to stat combo and team comp. This isn’t a desirable outcome for the majority I’m sure. Especially since we’re still running the same stale, old- kitten dungeons for the same crap.

Besides, meta game has nothing to do with stats guys, it’s something that exists in all of us, the players.

IndigoSundown.5419:

At which point we’d be seeing posts about how the “Knight’s meta” needs to end.

There’s a certain class of player that will always cleave to their received wisdom best play. If there wasn’t a meaningful gear advantage people would just switch over to classes (see the pvp meta).

Ultimately the ‘meta’ discussion is a people problem not a gameplay problem.

EDIT:

Jahroots.6791:

Besides, meta game has nothing to do with stats guys, it’s something that exists in all of us, the players.

Excellent simultaneous posts there

IndigoSundown.5419:

Leo G.4501:

Jerus.4350:

But there is diversity in BUILDS, just not in your gear. Gear is simply a slider on offensive potential vs defensive potential. If you don’t need that passive defense well, why not go zerk? There is no power gained by making yourself tanky, and well… why should there be? it’s making the game easier by making you more durable.

Where diversity lies is in your trait choices and weapons mostly, then to a lesser degree your runes/sigils.

Well, if the game is too ‘easy’, what harm would come if that defense<>offense slider from gear was absolute? That is, gear would affect all defensive and offensive capabilities, active or passive. The payoff for high offense would still be great but just more riskier (heck, you can even make it more of a payoff than it is now) and you could even scale back some of the passive effect of defensive stats to make it harder for them.

The target might be aiming for the specialized builds. The hybrid builds would likely give you the capabilities you have now but the spike damage builds would be spikier, the support builds would be more supportive, the condition builds would be more utilitarian with the sliders in between to give you various shades of each blended with others to make various hybrids (i.e. spike/condition build, a support/damage, condition/tanky, etc).

At which point we’d be seeing posts about how the “Knight’s meta” needs to end.

Or maybe the Cleric’s meta because they’d be the “go to boon” players for might (which would be tough to get to max 25 without a cleric or two) or with the proper blend of Cleric’s and Zerker, could get some decent clears since fury would be optimized for Zerkers over others…or perhaps the Condi meta might make an upset since they can weaken and blind foes more readily and reliably and their vulnerability would more superior than most so maybe it would be a Rabid/Knights meta.

Hmm, me personally, I’d rather that, gear making a swinging difference in my capabilities along with my traits, runes/sigils and skills.

Leo G.4501:

The game is too darn easy! And no, I don’t mean (just) the fights because some encounters still gave me trouble. I mean everything involving an encounter. The gear acquisition, survival mechanics, boons, conditions, damage, it’s all handed to you practically.

The game is ‘easy’ because we have had a long time to master the encounters, as well as videos and guides to teach us. Also this game was made easy because the rewards are crap. We’re meant to spend money to look pretty while bonking lesser beings on the head. Kind of like those rich guys who go on canned hunts for dangerous wildlife. GW2 simply doesn’t work when it’s too hard.

Jahroots.6791:

Leo G.4501:

The game is too darn easy! And no, I don’t mean (just) the fights because some encounters still gave me trouble. I mean everything involving an encounter. The gear acquisition, survival mechanics, boons, conditions, damage, it’s all handed to you practically.

The game is ‘easy’ because we have had a long time to master the encounters, as well as videos and guides to teach us. Also this game was made easy because the rewards are crap. We’re meant to spend money to look pretty while bonking lesser beings on the head. Kind of like those rich guys who go on canned hunts for dangerous wildlife. GW2 simply doesn’t work when it’s too hard.

True. It’s also easy because 1 player can manage 25 stacks of might, maintain 25 stacks of bleed, can keep up protection and regen (or readily get it from allies), can always have a dodge up almost at any given time, and if any of that fails, there’s still blind, aegis, invulnerability and so forth on top of max crit chance, effects/conditions on crits etc if they can’t melt down the opponent as fast as first anticipated.

Leo G.4501:

True. It’s also easy because 1 player can manage 25 stacks of might, maintain 25 stacks of bleed, can keep up protection and regen (or readily get it from allies).

I’ll bite. Please elaborate on how to accomplish the above.
Thanks!

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Really? Thats news to me. I havent seen anything which we cant complete using the meta.

We are already using support and control to survive in the meta.

Can’t is where you got caught up there. GW is designed sot here’s very little a particular build can’t complete.

Much of the mordrem content is harder for zerkers than for other builds:

More Chain CC,
More Chain Condition application,
Special defense and resistance (husk’s high toughness, front armor on threshers)
more rapid attacks to eat things like aegis
content that’s extremely inefficient for groups.
High yield enemy healers
Very stack-unfriendly attack patterns (root attacks from tetragryphs and the healing threshers, spin/ground AE passthrough from the other threshers, the bug swarms from mordrem trolls, the mass retal howl before they nerfed it)

Again, it’s not impossible for them, but it’s just a touch harder… and an oldfashioned stack is idiocy for a multitude of reasons.

Which means that your previous statement was incorrect. They are not designing encounters that the meta doesnt work with. They are just upping the difficulty slightly. Although people are seriously overestimating the danger of mordrem and the new bosses. They are barely any different to what we are used to. The only difference is some condition attacks and high damage attacks on trash mobs which have huge tells. In some ways its even easier because we can see the attacks coming. This is difficult to do when dealing with a large group of molten alliance in the molten fractal. And stacking is still perfectly safe to do. You just have to treat them like you would treat fractal mob groups (CC and blinds).

Mordrem are only hard for people who dont read tells and dont dodge or CC correctly. So it seems people who already run and understand the meta arent really seeing much of a difference in difficulty. But other more casual players are.

No, you see, it doesn’t not work with the ‘meta builds’, it doesn’t work with the ‘meta’.

In the new content zerk/stack isn’t superior, stacking was obviously heavily targeted in the design, it’s almost always a bad idea now. Zerk is kind of bad for some enemies, okay for others (ie hounds are fine now. 2 months ago it was fun watching zerkers killt hemselves on them though).

There is no zerk meta for the newer content

There is in the case of the old content (for people who claim to care about that 5m/run), but there isn’t in the new content.

~~~

Also, I didn’t exactly say that mordrem are hard, I said that they negate the advantages of the zerker meta. And it certainly does. You can still pew pew big numbers if you want, but it isn’t clearly superior or even a time saver.

The meta isnt just about stacking. Stacking is a strategy heavily used within the meta. You cannot define the meta with such a broad and unfair generalisation. The “zerk meta” as you describe is literally just the builds and an efficient approach. It may involve stacking, it may not. It entirely depends on the situation and what is the fastest approach.

Do you understand why people stack? They do it to share buffs or to group up trash mobs so they can AOE them down. This still works on the new content. It might be difficult for bad players but it is still the most efficient way to deal with large groups of enemies quickly. The only difference in the meta now is that the meta doesnt involve wall stacking bosses because fgs was nerfed. But we still stack for buffs and go melee. And we still wall stack some groups of trash mobs to LoS pull them together.

Windsagio.1340:

IndigoSundown.5419:

At which point we’d be seeing posts about how the “Knight’s meta” needs to end.

There’s a certain class of player that will always cleave to their received wisdom best play. If there wasn’t a meaningful gear advantage people would just switch over to classes (see the pvp meta).

Ultimately the ‘meta’ discussion is a people problem not a gameplay problem.

There will always be a meta yes. But the game can go some distance to make certain there is no universal meta that works for all places of the game. Our choice of gear and point allocation should have some other merit than time.

So many other mechanics that can be brought into account to change gameplay… playing alone or with someone, fighting one enemy or group, being near water or lava, positioned uphill or downhill, elemental affinities, weapon damage types, etc etc etc

Point being… multiple factors interacting with one another will make for numerous different type of encounters that would increase re playability and discourage stagnant builds. Yes we will always try to find the most efficient route but does that route have to be the same everywhere?

I cry a little on the inside when I read about how people want to destroy the meta. GW2 has screwed up alright – they haven’t really shown people how their combat works. If people understood how its SUPPOSED to work – then people would understand that wearing Zerker is best case scenario for the game in PVE.

Here is the deal – this game is supposed to be all about active ways to stay alive. ACTIVE – not gear based. In WoW for example you had ‘free’ dodges where you would just stand in once place as a tank and the game would calculate that the mob missed. That’s passive mitigation. WoW after a while decided this sucked and at least wants to make you hit buttons to ‘avoid’ damage – even if you don’t see any animation.

Here in GW2 they are already a step ahead of that. You can debuff the mob to put up active mitigation (blinds, immobilize) – you can use abilities (Aegis – this is like WoW’s active) – you can use stacking of boons to increase your offensive potential to overwhelm the boss (best defense is a good offense) – and you can strafe behind the mob to avoid various attacks.. and so on. Its all active.

What you DO NOT WANT is to make the game about WEARING the right gear to PASSIVELY avoid damage. This is the worst case scenario. This is like old WoW but without rotations! Its entirely no skill. Ever run a dungeon with someone who just avoids damage – with a full tank set/build and does almost no damage? I have. Its not great. We do not want to make changes that reward these kind of players.

High skill players need to be rewarded – that’s the only thing that matters in a horizontal progression game. Any "meta’ can be quickly accomplished because its a horizontal progression.

Any attempt to change to favour low skill who want to make players run with 10 gear sets of gear should be rejected (1 each for the various encounters) . GW2 is supposed to be an ACTION MMO – and PVE changes should reflect that – and not destroy them.

Once you get how the combat it supposed to work – its immediately clear why Zerker should be the meta for PvE. If passive mitigation is not very important then you care about maximizing your DPS, boons and the ability to put out debuffs and such. Zerker gear lets you do this very well. (Some builds might potentially use stuff line Sinster or whatever but you get the idea – its gear with 3x offensive stats).

spoj.9672:

The meta isnt just about stacking. Stacking is a strategy heavily used within the meta. You cannot define the meta with such a broad and unfair generalisation. The “zerk meta” as you describe is literally just the builds and an efficient approach. It may involve stacking, it may not. It entirely depends on the situation and what is the fastest approach.

Do you understand why people stack? They do it to share buffs or to group up trash mobs so they can AOE them down. This still works on the new content. It might be difficult for bad players but it is still the most efficient way to deal with large groups of enemies quickly. The only difference in the meta now is that the meta doesnt involve wall stacking bosses because fgs was nerfed. But we still stack for buffs and go melee. And we still wall stack some groups of trash mobs to LoS pull them together.

Stacking is part of what makes it so effective in dungeons though, if it weren’t for the buff-sharing/field-sharing/defenses-sharing (including things like black powder), it wouldn’t be effective.

You’re wrong about the effectiveness of stacking though, for a number of reasons… Primarily that stacking relies on the enemy coming to you, and many enemies simply won’t now. Even more, the environments are such that you won’t consistently have a good los/stacking spot anyways, and if it does exist, you can’t stay there for game reasons (If you’re stacking in a corner while people are trying to save a NPC, they’re going to be a little annoyed at you not helping)

The ultimate evidence is that people simply don’t stack (in the dungeon sense) in drytop or the silverwastes. If it were effective they would, it’s not exactly an unknown tactic.

But… they don’t. They don’t because it’s not terribly effective, and because it’s easy to get killed by the new opponents who are a lot less likely to obediently come into the blender.

Hume.2876:

Here is the deal – this game is supposed to be all about active ways to stay alive.

“Meta” as understood in the dungeon sense is the ultimate in passive play though, you know your specified role and you do it exactly as you’ve done it every previous time. It totally freaking works, but let’s not pretend it’s active play. It’s less active than old-style ‘get out of the red circle!’ raid fights

Windsagio.1340:

Hume.2876:

Here is the deal – this game is supposed to be all about active ways to stay alive.

“Meta” as understood in the dungeon sense is the ultimate in passive play though, you know your specified role and you do it exactly as you’ve done it every previous time. It totally freaking works, but let’s not pretend it’s active play. It’s less active than old-style ‘get out of the red circle!’ raid fights

And switching to all Nomad fixes this how? Don’t confuse bad encounter design with boosting of the passive mitigation stats. Like I said if you understand how combat works – you will understand why Zerker is the best case scenario for the game designers.

If you want to enable the content designers to put the focus on active abilities – you are smart to devalue passive mitigation.

Hume.2876:

Windsagio.1340:

Hume.2876:

Here is the deal – this game is supposed to be all about active ways to stay alive.

“Meta” as understood in the dungeon sense is the ultimate in passive play though, you know your specified role and you do it exactly as you’ve done it every previous time. It totally freaking works, but let’s not pretend it’s active play. It’s less active than old-style ‘get out of the red circle!’ raid fights

And switching to all Nomad fixes this how? Don’t confuse bad encounter design with boosting of the passive mitigation stats. Like I said if you understand how combat works – you will understand why Zerker is the best case scenario for the game designers.

If you want to enable the content designers to put the focus on active abilities – you are smart to devalue passive mitigation.

Then what about other non-3x offensive gear types. They should just disappear? Do you really think its ok to go all offense and triumph in all aspects of the game? what kind of build variety is this game promoting?

How your character is designed should have a clear impact on how you handle encounters. As it is, players can run dungeons naked and that most certainly is not ok. It isn’t a matter of experience. I myself ran end of arah p4 first and only time almost naked way back when it was new(not by choice; multiple deaths & i was opener). Nor is it completely the game difficulty. Different situations should require you to adapt accordingly. Mechanics can go a long way to introduce variety.

Your build goes beyond just what you wear. Even if your choice armor is limited, point allocation should make the difference in the gameplay. As it is now, anything (and in some cases, even nothing) is viable. Your build design should reflect on more than just your time.

Theres nothing stopping you from running defensive stats if you want to. You run them because you dont care about the meta. That doesnt mean you have the right to destroy other peoples playstyles.

Hume.2876:

Windsagio.1340:

Hume.2876:

Here is the deal – this game is supposed to be all about active ways to stay alive.

“Meta” as understood in the dungeon sense is the ultimate in passive play though, you know your specified role and you do it exactly as you’ve done it every previous time. It totally freaking works, but let’s not pretend it’s active play. It’s less active than old-style ‘get out of the red circle!’ raid fights

And switching to all Nomad fixes this how? Don’t confuse bad encounter design with boosting of the passive mitigation stats. Like I said if you understand how combat works – you will understand why Zerker is the best case scenario for the game designers.

If you want to enable the content designers to put the focus on active abilities – you are smart to devalue passive mitigation.

I didn’t say that though :p

It’s fixed the way Anet is trying to fix it, by designing encounters with that kind of playstyle in mind.

Specifically they have to try to force active play. This isn’t, as you say, a stats thing, it’s in the enemies.

The Dungeon meta is about ability/trait combination allowing quick, low risk, passive play (usually in stacks). They have to force people out of the fields/mutual coverage and into actual combat. This is why so many new opponents drop continuing ground effects, they’re trying to force players to split up and actually play instead of sitting just around the corner so the enemies LOS run into 100 blades.

It’s also why those new mender enemies have an extremely powerful large radius AE heal that’s interrupted on any hit that also slide back a bit when they’re hit. The whole point is to force players to use pulls to grab them or more often to go out and target them. Again, it’s promoting active play rather than passive ‘let the enemies come to me’ play.

There was one case where Anet was specifically punishing zerkers, when the Mordrem Hounds did that extremely powerful AE retaliation. It wrecked zerker built/geared players, but they took it out preumably because it wasn’t something that was going to meaningfully change player’s behaviors.

Edit: Don’t worry though, they’re not changing the old dungeons, there will always be zerker meta there. It’ll still be essentially meaningless, but for people of the appropriate mindset the advantage isn’t going away.

spoj.9672:

Theres nothing stopping you from running defensive stats if you want to. You run them because you dont care about the meta. That doesnt mean you have the right to destroy other peoples playstyles.

I dont have the right to do anything in regards to this game or i would have changed it by now lol. I just present my ideas and hope something comes off of it. Do try to counter them with something more productive.

The driving motivation behind what all games call the “Metagame” is the desire to be better. Better than you were before. Better than that guy over there. Whatever. Until you can deal with this issue, there will always be the danger of a “Meta” in a game.

You can eliminate the “meta”, but at what cost? So long as there is more than one choice which makes a meaningful difference, there will be a Meta.

If you really want to eliminate the “meta”, then eliminate choice. When everyone has only one meaningful choice, then everyone will be equal.

Personally, I’m okay with there being a Meta.

heartless.6803:

Harper.4173:

heartless.6803:

It’s not that I want the meta zerker builds nerfed, but I want other builds to be buffed.

Condi isn’t viable at all in pve instances.
Healing based builds aren’t viable at all in pve instances
tanking based builds aren’t viable either.

Condi has too high a ramp up time for how short bosses last.
Plus to healing is only marginally better then just being a full zerker gear healing
same with tanking.

The real issue is certain stats just blow massive, not that beserker runes are too good.

I shouldn’t be nearly identical in healing and support output if I’m in beserker gear or not.

The real issue is that some people don’t understand the game.

Guild Wars 2 was designed in a way that a healing party member is not needed. A healing build – no matter how good or bad it heals will never be needed or wanted because everyone can do their own healing just as the designers intended when they gave us all healing slots and effective healing skills.

You’ll never be wanted as a healer in a group because decent people will be able to manage on their own without you. Because the game was designed like this. It’s not an issue – it’s intended.

Condi does have issues- but due to the way the game is build I don’t think they can fix that.

Tanking is not viable because again – the game was designed in a way that you can’t tank.
If you have high armor in this game it means you’ll be able to take extra hits ( usually 2-5) but by no means will you be able to tank it out with the boss.

This game did away with the trinity – please try to understand it before you post about it complaining that it isn’t what you wanted.

But that was what I was referring as the cause of the meta. The lack of a need for those roles causes people to only take what is the sheer fastest. Why take a guardian when I can take a zerker warrior? They do way more damage and there isn’t any need for anything the guardian provides. Thats the problem, those apsects AREN’T needed when they should be.

Group shields, group heals should be important and necessary. Having a build that has some amount of group thought should be important. It shouldn’t be 100% dps me me me me me me me me.

I’m not very high end, I admit that freely. The problem that meta causes, is that it causes people to feel like they have to be that. Zerker has been meta for SO LONG that you feel forced to be that now. You feel that you can’t even pick anything else because it’s just not as good. You can’t go with a plus to healing build because the gain on your group heals are marginal and you lose a ton of your damage potential. It just doesn’t out weigh the cost. So you have to be full zerker, even if you don’t like it. Stats just are screwy, conditions and boons are screwy, when everyone can apply boons nobody does.

Wrong.

Why do you think these things should be required?

GW2 isn’t trying to be that trinity MMO. It is its own game with its own combat dynamic. In this game you have to do well yourself not rely on others to perform roles to carry you through.

And even in trinity games – the same philosophy still applies. Some classes will not be wanted because the meta is the same get as much dps as possible while staying alive.

You would get let’s say 1 healer and the rest full dps. And the class that did the best healing would be meta while all other potential healers would be shunned.

That aside – GW2 is not aiming to be a game with fixed roles that are required. That was made very clear during development and it’s very clear now.

This game is centered around the individual. You do your own healing, tanking and dps-ing. You do as much healing and tanking as you need to stay alive. Then you dps.

If you think the game should be fundamentally different than it was intended to be then maybe you should consider if you’ve picked the right game to begin with.

It’s like playing Arma III and saying it’s all wrong because it’s not Call of Duty.

Also why do you feel you have to be a “high-end pro zerker 1337 meta player” ?
If you enjoy a healing build team up with other people who enjoy the same kind of approach to GW2 and go do your own thing.
Seriously. Make your own guilds, your own LFGs and have fun. It’s that easy.

Nobody is stopping you from enjoying yourself except yourself.
Protip: any build is viable in GW2 at the moment – you can complete almost any content with any build.

Hard roles and role requirements would ruin that.

heartless.6803:

Harper.4173:

heartless.6803:

I think part of the problem is how things are designed for any group setup. It wasn’t designed to need a support character. Because of that and how good dodging is when you know how to use it, you can completely negate the need of a support role. When you don’t need support, or a tank and healer if you’re thinking trinity, then the makeup becomes take only the absolute best dps.

It’s like the tourney, nobody wants celes ele’s and engi’s to be the new “it meta” just like nobody wants zerker warriors to be the meta. Nobody likes being told that just because they’re a bunker guardian or a support staff guardian that they’re not wanted because they’re not the meta.

A-net has to do a better job of breaking metas or bringing them closer in line with the rest.

People will be told they’re not wanted regardless of what meta is in effect or what roles are or are not in the game.

It’s the nature of MMOs. Take what you need – throw away anything else.

You can’t break a meta – the concept of meta if understood correctly implies there will always be one.

Bringing them closer in line to what? The rest of what? And why? So bad players can feel better about themselves?

You should never be labeled a bad player for not following the meta build. Thats the problem with this game. If you don’t follow the meta you’re a bad. The problem isn’t the players the problem is the meta. It needs to be broken and brought down to the rest of other builds, that need to be brought up.

A game with a huge diversity such as this game, shouldn’t be seeing the exact same things all the time.

You’re bad not necessarily because you can’t play well but because you’re not playing for the right reasons.

Right reasons to play GW2 as seen by the majority of meta players are :

-Bragging rights for super fast runs
-Tons of loot very fast.

If it’s not these reasons then people won’t play with you. And they have every right to.
I don’t care if the world’s best GW2 player wants to team up with me. Unless he wants to do stuff super crazy fast and get a ton of loot in a very short amount of time I am completely uninterested.

The “problem” is player-sided. Players want to play with similar players and use meta as a means to differentiate and try to filter out the similarly minded players from those who have totally different goals.

Where I’m from there’s a saying. It translates roughly to : Those who are alike come together.

When I play I try to find people like me or identical to me to play with.
Why would I play with people that are different and have other goals?

Nike.2631:

Malchior.5732:

No matter what you guys suggest, the meta will always be the fastest and most efficient way to beat something, which will always be the point where you no longer need more defense and can focus everything else into offense; Zerker gear falls into this category.

I can snap the ‘zerker meta’s neck in one step:

• All self-heals base value has been decreased by 15%. The contribution of healing power to these skill has been increased such that at 400 healing power you will see healing results equivalent to their current value with healing power zero. character with healing power greater than 550 will see a slight increase in the effectiveness of these abilities.

Done. Zerker for everyone from the hardest of the hard to the sloppiest of the sloppy is dead. After that it becomes a matter of skill and taste how you want to roll on the spectrum between offense and survivability, but glass cannons (which is a joke, there are NO glass cannons in this game because of the frequency of absolute invulnerability dodging) will actually have a risk great enough to consider backing off on pure DPS stats.

Don’t think for a moment it “can’t be done”. The question is actually does ArenaNet have the desire and the will to implement this or any of the half dozen other ways that come readily to mind to strangling the ‘lone wolf’ meta to death? For the most part they seem happy with a game that lets middling skill players think they are wildly expert through deliberate, deeply entrenched lack of challenge in most content.

The real question is – does Anet actually want to create a gamebreaking situation that will infuriate the majority of players for a few people that are crying on the forums about a game they never fully understood?

The " lone wolf" situation is precisely why GW2 is both unique and awesome as an MMO.
If you want to be reliant on other people you can literally play ANY other MMO that’ll force you to need other players to perform certain roles so you can perform yours.

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

5-8 minutes matter to some people. They matter to me.

If I wasted 5 minutes on each dungeon – provided I ran 3 per day that’s 15 minutes a day. That’s one hour every 4 days.
Assuming I played GW2 for about every day since release ( let’s say 350 days/year) that means 7 days – 7 entire days of my life wasted by slow dungeon runs.
It is a lot.

Also it’s not just the fact that the runs are slow – but wipes and taking a long time personally kill the experience for me. There’s no enjoyment in doing AC p1 in 30 minutes.

Not sure how many people measure their playtime by how many dungeons they do. For me and likely hundreds of others, they measure how long they play by what free time they allot for playing GW2.

That is to say, people don’t schedule 3 dungeon runs a day, they simply allot 30-45min of play. If they can only get 1 run + some dailies in, how would you calculate that in ‘time of my life wasted’?

When I play I usually make a check-list. I go in – do the list – usually in the fastest possible manner.

I don’t measure my play time by how many dungeons I do – but it did help with this exercise. There’s an in-game /age function to measure it if I’m interested.

If they allot 30-45 minutes of their time and can only get 1 dungeon run in that amount of time then that’s great for them. What works for them works for them.

I don’t do the same. I set out a goal and aggressively pursue it. If it’s 3 dungeon runs than that’s what it is. If it’s a FOTM run then that’s what it is.

I don’t really care how people manage their time or what they consider to be wasted or not.

I consider time spent doing something that could be done faster at a slower pace wasted. If I can do a certain task in 10 minutes in normal circumstances I’ll consider all minutes past the 10 minutes mark wasted. I could have been done and already doing something else. I didn’t need to spend those extra minutes there.

So then why go out of your way to make a ratio of efficiency to “wasted time of my life” if you know not everyone measures their playtime in the same way you do? To be passive aggressive and condescending?

But to me, if we’re balling up play in an MMO as ‘tasks’ to be completed on a ‘list’, that’s probably an issue in and of itself.

Because I’m trying to prove a point.

People like me exist. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only person who cares about their time in this game.

So yes – those extra minutes in a run matter to me and possibly other players that are like me. They’re not something you can just disregard and ignore.

5 minutes in a run matter. I was proving a point. Next time think of others before you impart judgement on what is or is not relevant. You’re not the only player here and your way of playing is most certainly the only way.

Leo G.4501:

Or maybe the Cleric’s meta because they’d be the “go to boon” players for might (which would be tough to get to max 25 without a cleric or two) or with the proper blend of Cleric’s and Zerker, could get some decent clears since fury would be optimized for Zerkers over others…or perhaps the Condi meta might make an upset since they can weaken and blind foes more readily and reliably and their vulnerability would more superior than most so maybe it would be a Rabid/Knights meta.

Hmm, me personally, I’d rather that, gear making a swinging difference in my capabilities along with my traits, runes/sigils and skills.

And I’d rather — if Anet is going to completely revamp and re-balance the game — that there were no stats on gear other than weapon damage, defense and runes/sigils. Since they won’t be redoing the game from the ground up for either of us, your want is as much fantasy as mine.

Achieving the goals of team synergy in PvE play while also removing dependence on particular types of gear, professions or builds was not an easy task. I, for one, appreciate the job ANet did. It’s an elegant and subtle system, too subtle, apparently, for some players. I would not want to see them revert to a system with less independence.

You may think that re-balancing how stats affect boons could be done without sacrificing independence and laissez-faire grouping. That’s not what would happen, unless ANet were to completely refocus their approach to what makes professions different from each other. In profession design, easier boon access makes up for other shortcomings — like low health pools and relative skill coefficients.

All of that would have to be rebalanced, and for what? So the meta can exclude based on, “We’ve got one of those already.” based on gear rather than gear being a given and the roles players play being based on profession, skill and trait choices?

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

There are different levels of filtering though, someone can lie about being zerk just as well as they can lie about being ‘EXP’.

Zerk especially won’t protect you from your example, because it’s well known and kind of human nature. The guy in brand-new bought zerker gear will kitten up CM2 just as much as the same guy in Magi’s

That’s why you don’t just look at gear.

If party DPS drops – you can suspect a non-zerker.
If someone doesn’t drop as fast as they should in full zerk after getting hit you can know he’s lying and easily kick.

The guy in that brand-new bought zerker gear can’t be more than 5000 AP so as a general rule of thumb try to find people with high AP to play with and you won’t have this problem ( Yes I know you can get terrible people at high AP but there’s a lower chance they’ll be bad than the person who’s sitting at 1000 AP).

-I look forward to everyone telling me about their 500-1500 AP friend who’s absolutely godlike at this game and how my statement is so false-

I never said I filter just by gear – just that it’s one of the criteria.

(emphasis mine)

This is why people hate ‘zerk meta’ folks. You’re immediately in a place where someone not dying is an easy kick. It’s so focused on the theoretical meta that they’ll punish people for not failing.

Simiarly, heartless up there is using the term ‘bads’.

The essence of it comes down to that the thing that makes people mad isn’t the zerker meta itself, it’s that people that insist on the zerker meta are almost inevitably jerks.

No friend.

People are not punished for “not failing”. The problem isn’t that they’re not dying. The problems are lying and leeching. Also abusing other players.

If they get hit and don’t take the amount of damage a zerker would take when hit by that attack you know they’re lying about their gear.

They’re being “punished” for lying and sneaking in a group where they’re not wanted, needed or liked.

It has nothing to do with the theoretical aspects of the “meta” – it has everything to do with the practical aspects of :

1) you’re making the run take longer.
2) you’re lying and sneaking in runs in order to get carried.

Both of these warrant a kick in my book.

If you’re not zerker and not meta just make your own parties and play with people that are not zerker and not meta.

Or zerkers that want to play with non-meta people. But don’t claim to be something you’re not and leech.

If those who insist on “the zerker meta” are jerks – why do non-zerkers insist on being in our parties so much?

Why do they submit themselves to our “jerk moods” when they could simply play with other people like them and leave us alone?

frifox.5283:

Leo G.4501:

True. It’s also easy because 1 player can manage 25 stacks of might, maintain 25 stacks of bleed, can keep up protection and regen (or readily get it from allies).

I’ll bite. Please elaborate on how to accomplish the above.
Thanks!

Was more a figure of speech but it is indeed easy to get a lot of that due to the boon-stacking capable with various sources, might being a hearty culprit as it is the main active “team oriented” contribution players aim for in groups right along with fury. A build can easily accomplish max bleeds so long as they time their bleeds together and if protection/regen is needed, one can easily obtain it in groups. And you can still maintain an extremely offensive build with these things. I’m sure you’ve accomplished such in your time of play, my Ele certainly was a might/fury/protection dispenser with the right rotation.

Harper.4173:

If those who insist on “the zerker meta” are jerks – why do non-zerkers insist on being in our parties so much?

Why do they submit themselves to our “jerk moods” when they could simply play with other people like them and leave us alone?

Because they’re dumb? I don’t know. I run zerk when appropriate, but I avoid groups that advertise ‘zerk only’ like the plague, because they are the plague.

Sometimes, the only group in the thing you want to run has a ‘zerk only’ label. People are often shy of advertising their own groups (which is on them), so they join the group that’s there knowing it usually doesn’t matter.

Or, they’re kittened off and self-righteous over the advert and join anyways because ‘kitten those guys’. That’s also on them though.

~~~

In general though, people have this idea that it’s the way it was like before the ferocity fix. Back then there was a large, compelling difference because the output was so much higher.

Now, after the fix, there’s an at best nominal advantage (presuming people aren’t just being dumb about it and doing something like a warrior in nomads), but folks are stuck in their ways and think that it’s still this big deal… or that it’s a way to filter out people who don’t care.

Ultimately, to me, it’s as I said. I’m happy to have people that think Zerker meta matters filter themselves out. It’s a useful tool in avoiding tools.

The real important element is on Arenanet’s part, and they’re doing the right thing in designing the new encounters to encourage a greater variety of builds and styles.

why does this “meta” have to end? Why cannot you just wear berzerker gear yourself?

- there is build diversity even with everyone using zerker
- if they change the stats, there will still be a “meta” – a type of gear that is perceived as the best one – and you will still be kicked out of groups by people who think it is important to have
- if you bring in role diversity, then every role will get a “meta”. You will no longer see “zerker required”, but “class x wearing gear y” required. And you will still be kicked from groups if you don´t bring it.

Zerker gear is easily available. Get it. Or create your own groups. Why is your suggested inability to make friends in game the liability of other players which have to take you along in your opinion?

Just play WvW and you won’t have to worry about a meta. PvE is a joke anyhow. You have mobs spraying craploads of unavoidable damage or conditions. You can’t tell where attacks are 3/4 of the time. Those new Mordrem mobs: Crap loads of health and bleeds. Too much loss of character control…yeah, i’m all set. WvW is the only thing REALLY worth playing in this game because its fun. Greed Wars 2 = WAR 2.0, for all intents and purposes. I just wished i had my old White Lion and Chosen back.

MikeyGrey.2496:

Hume.2876:

Windsagio.1340:

Hume.2876:

Here is the deal – this game is supposed to be all about active ways to stay alive.

“Meta” as understood in the dungeon sense is the ultimate in passive play though, you know your specified role and you do it exactly as you’ve done it every previous time. It totally freaking works, but let’s not pretend it’s active play. It’s less active than old-style ‘get out of the red circle!’ raid fights

And switching to all Nomad fixes this how? Don’t confuse bad encounter design with boosting of the passive mitigation stats. Like I said if you understand how combat works – you will understand why Zerker is the best case scenario for the game designers.

If you want to enable the content designers to put the focus on active abilities – you are smart to devalue passive mitigation.

Then what about other non-3x offensive gear types. They should just disappear? Do you really think its ok to go all offense and triumph in all aspects of the game? what kind of build variety is this game promoting?

How your character is designed should have a clear impact on how you handle encounters. As it is, players can run dungeons naked and that most certainly is not ok. It isn’t a matter of experience. I myself ran end of arah p4 first and only time almost naked way back when it was new(not by choice; multiple deaths & i was opener). Nor is it completely the game difficulty. Different situations should require you to adapt accordingly. Mechanics can go a long way to introduce variety.

Your build goes beyond just what you wear. Even if your choice armor is limited, point allocation should make the difference in the gameplay. As it is now, anything (and in some cases, even nothing) is viable. Your build design should reflect on more than just your time.

This game is NOT dependent on gear. It’s a horizontal progression. That means not having optimal gear does not lock you out of content. This is why the Zerk meta exists – if you can do dungeons naked – why not pick the fastest way to go through them?

The Zerk meta is not a problem – its the best case scenario for designers. It allows the content to be designed around active mitigation – and not having people outgear the content.

Games like WoW require you to ‘spreadsheet’ the gear. It’s all about optimizing your gear and not your play. That’s a different kind of game. GW2 is supposed to be an action MMO.

Gear is largely there as a little added plus – its not even necessary to do content. It will make your life a tad easier. Make it so you need the ‘right’ gear – and suddenly you have different kind of game.

I don’t want to play that game. You are welcome to pick from at least a half dozen other games that rely on players having the correct gear to unlock content.

Windsagio.1340:

Hume.2876:

Windsagio.1340:

Hume.2876:

Here is the deal – this game is supposed to be all about active ways to stay alive.

“Meta” as understood in the dungeon sense is the ultimate in passive play though, you know your specified role and you do it exactly as you’ve done it every previous time. It totally freaking works, but let’s not pretend it’s active play. It’s less active than old-style ‘get out of the red circle!’ raid fights

And switching to all Nomad fixes this how? Don’t confuse bad encounter design with boosting of the passive mitigation stats. Like I said if you understand how combat works – you will understand why Zerker is the best case scenario for the game designers.

If you want to enable the content designers to put the focus on active abilities – you are smart to devalue passive mitigation.

I didn’t say that though :p

It’s fixed the way Anet is trying to fix it, by designing encounters with that kind of playstyle in mind.

Specifically they have to try to force active play. This isn’t, as you say, a stats thing, it’s in the enemies.

The Dungeon meta is about ability/trait combination allowing quick, low risk, passive play (usually in stacks). They have to force people out of the fields/mutual coverage and into actual combat. This is why so many new opponents drop continuing ground effects, they’re trying to force players to split up and actually play instead of sitting just around the corner so the enemies LOS run into 100 blades.

It’s also why those new mender enemies have an extremely powerful large radius AE heal that’s interrupted on any hit that also slide back a bit when they’re hit. The whole point is to force players to use pulls to grab them or more often to go out and target them. Again, it’s promoting active play rather than passive ‘let the enemies come to me’ play.

I play Zerk guys in Silver Wastes – it’s not a problem. Zerk gear just puts the emphasis on active and not passive mitigation. You have to dodge at the right time, use your bleeds etc etc. Use pulls and interrupts etc. You can’t just blindy run into a crowd of Teragriffs and hope to live in full zerkers. It’s a better design.

GW2 is not doing away with the Zerk meta. . All the passive stats do for armor is take the skill out of the game in PVE. Have a bunch of unkillabe noobs and let them randomnly hit keys to the mobs are dead. That’s not good game design.

In PVP its a different story. PVP hits aren’t so big that you can be one shot – so non zerker gear and even bunker builds have their place. You still want to use your active mitigation but its about blocking/reflecting/blinding the big upcoming attacks.

It’s a bit different but its a good system. People in this thread who want to tear it down don’t fully understand it. Forcing people to switch to a new meta or requiring people to have the ‘right’ gear for the right situation (ala Molten Core with its fire resist) is not a good game design.

You don’t want to lock people out of content. The real problew GW2 has is that people who go all tanky or healy and get rejected don’t seem to understand how lack of DPS hurts the team. The Zerk meta is fine. All we need is for GW2 to teach people how their combat is supposed to work early on – and then it will be self explanatory why Zerker is the way to go.

“Soldier’s has saved me that many times, I soloed the boss while my party was wiped”

I do this in zerker’s. No kidding. But sometimes I am downed or killed too, either because I haven’t quite figured out what to do (so make stupid mistakes) or because I try to rez someone and therefore miss a dodge. That happenes pretty often and leads to a lot of party wipes. If someone stands in a distance of 1500 they might not realize what is happening.

But since this topic will likely never end: Anet, please do me a favour: If you want to nerf crit damage again because PvE people can’t handle it, please finally separate WvW from PvE.

Hume.2876:

Windsagio.1340:

Hume.2876:

Windsagio.1340:

Hume.2876:

Here is the deal – this game is supposed to be all about active ways to stay alive.

“Meta” as understood in the dungeon sense is the ultimate in passive play though, you know your specified role and you do it exactly as you’ve done it every previous time. It totally freaking works, but let’s not pretend it’s active play. It’s less active than old-style ‘get out of the red circle!’ raid fights

And switching to all Nomad fixes this how? Don’t confuse bad encounter design with boosting of the passive mitigation stats. Like I said if you understand how combat works – you will understand why Zerker is the best case scenario for the game designers.

If you want to enable the content designers to put the focus on active abilities – you are smart to devalue passive mitigation.

I didn’t say that though :p

It’s fixed the way Anet is trying to fix it, by designing encounters with that kind of playstyle in mind.

Specifically they have to try to force active play. This isn’t, as you say, a stats thing, it’s in the enemies.

The Dungeon meta is about ability/trait combination allowing quick, low risk, passive play (usually in stacks). They have to force people out of the fields/mutual coverage and into actual combat. This is why so many new opponents drop continuing ground effects, they’re trying to force players to split up and actually play instead of sitting just around the corner so the enemies LOS run into 100 blades.

It’s also why those new mender enemies have an extremely powerful large radius AE heal that’s interrupted on any hit that also slide back a bit when they’re hit. The whole point is to force players to use pulls to grab them or more often to go out and target them. Again, it’s promoting active play rather than passive ‘let the enemies come to me’ play.

I play Zerk guys in Silver Wastes – it’s not a problem. Zerk gear just puts the emphasis on active and not passive mitigation. You have to dodge at the right time, use your bleeds etc etc. Use pulls and interrupts etc. You can’t just blindy run into a crowd of Teragriffs and hope to live in full zerkers. It’s a better design.

GW2 is not doing away with the Zerk meta. . All the passive stats do for armor is take the skill out of the game in PVE. Have a bunch of unkillabe noobs and let them randomnly hit keys to the mobs are dead. That’s not good game design.

In PVP its a different story. PVP hits aren’t so big that you can be one shot – so non zerker gear and even bunker builds have their place. You still want to use your active mitigation but its about blocking/reflecting/blinding the big upcoming attacks.

It’s a bit different but its a good system. People in this thread who want to tear it down don’t fully understand it. Forcing people to switch to a new meta or requiring people to have the ‘right’ gear for the right situation (ala Molten Core with its fire resist) is not a good game design.

You don’t want to lock people out of content. The real problew GW2 has is that people who go all tanky or healy and get rejected don’t seem to understand how lack of DPS hurts the team. The Zerk meta is fine. All we need is for GW2 to teach people how their combat is supposed to work early on – and then it will be self explanatory why Zerker is the way to go.

Well again, it’d be wrong to make zerker worthless, it’s just more in line with everything else.

The ‘zerker meta’ developed because players developed methods to get the advantages of the high damage output (especially when the balance was off) and mitigate the risks. Of course Zerker ‘works’ in Silverwastes, it just (as you said) takes more active skill to mitigate damage, and in some cases there’s a damage balance between being able to stay in on an enemy a little longer or having to clear out to recover.

People in this discussion need to quit misunderstanding the issue. The problem is’t that Berzerker is too good, it simply isn’t. The problem is that when these extremely lazy playstyles work, zerker breaks scale because damage is the only thing that matters at all.

The core issue is that the “Berzerker Meta” is all about rejecting other gear combinations and styles, that’s why it generates so much annoyance.

So what i get from this thread is people want healing power and toughness to be viable so they can run their full cleric build and face tank mobs/bosses that could one shot a zerker right?.. why is this good for the game exactly?.. cleric guardian can already facetank fractal 50 mossman like nobodies business, or take 2-3 lupicus swipes to the face and live. This makes me think that all the people that opt for these “diverse” builds are just bad players.

there are already plenty of build diversity in trait/weapon/sigil choices as someone pointed out, in fact i would say the diversity in dungeon is probably one of the better things that anet done, while some encounter can definitely do some improvement especially to the stacking (even then speedrun groups hardly stack anymore due to fgs nerf so only bad pugs stack), people just choose not to use them, it does not mean game should cater around them.

When i play dota 2 and my favourate hero has only a handful of useful builds, do i go complaining to valve that my hero needs more build diversity?.. no, i adapt the meta build and i switch it up depending on the game. Thats basically the same thing with gw2.

This meta ends with each and every one of you when you decide to start thinking dynamically for yourself. Each one of you has the potential to bring about a change in your gameplay experience. Zerker is a fine choice, it has it’s place, but defensive/supportive speccing isn’t invalid as an option. Roles aren’t dead. Start thinking.