Guild Wars 2

Tao.5096:

Point was that a heavy amount of majority does that.
As I understand that Environment given by developer is supposed to be used to your advantage, it still doesn’t change the fact that every boss in every path in every dungeon is done the same way – stack, might, lure, dps, next one -> repeat.
And that should have been changed long time ago.

You can say the same of most of any PvE game. There is difference between fight, but that basic of a fight stay the same because the mechanic are the same. Sometime you stack might before the fight, other time you stack might on him. Some fight you lure, other fight you don’t lure. Some time you need some reflection, other time you need to time dodge, other time you need to interrupt. That’s never ending complaint, there will never be enough diversity in fight to satisfied everybody. Doesn’t mean that Anet have a free pass to not add more diversity in fight, but it’s not a terrible game breaking problem either.

Tao.5096:

On serious note.
Zerk Meta?

CoE Subject Alpha w/o stacking behind a boxes, walls, corners, etc.
GL.

haha good one. if you got no clue of zerk-meta don’t talk about it.
we’re running this dungeon every day, killing him on the spot he spawns.
you should try to get a good build and max your gear first.

and then have a look on elementalists icebow. for our team 5 seconds are enough to burst him down to 50% – after that 2 dodges are enough.

STRanger.5120:

TPMN.1483:

STRanger.5120:

hybrid.5027:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Please see my post a few posts above wherein I show how wrong this is.

Please accept that not everyone have to share your opinion.
The post above is about your opinion (it’s definitely good to have one, nothing against that), but the truth is that everything PvE related is about DPS and nothing else. So that’s what created zerker meta and that’s the reason why it’s still there.
This is my opinion, you’re free to have your own of course.

However, the game is built that way, especially in the dungeon scenario, where most of the dangerous “mechanics” can be skipped/glitched/avoided, therefore are not existant for speedrunners and is possible to run those in full zerker gear because of this.

No ‘mechanics’ are skipped – we actively ‘defend’ against them. You just dont notice the videos where we use control skills to prevent these from happening.

Please go play a different game if you want a holy trinity or traditional MMO with elves, death necros, fairys, vampires and such like.

I can even recommend a few for you !

Tell this to the trap floor in CM, where a shadowstep/another kind of teleport through the ceiling from the floor under it skips it, will ya? Or the last boss in the same dungeon (don’t know the path now), where it’s often intentionally bugged into a rock, so he can’t reach players outside of his AOE attacks which are easily dodgable….

Also, I neither look for another MMO, nor want a trinity system here, I just would like to see working PvE, not skip/glitch fest like it’s now…

Great.

People do it for the cash – the fast loot and rewards.

Start sending people gold to not do it and I’m sure they won’t.

I personally would love to do a full clear of AC p1 for example if you gave me 10 gold for it.

Sparks The Rescue.5043:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

The core issue is that the “Berzerker Meta” is all about rejecting other gear combinations and styles, that’s why it generates so much annoyance.

It’s more about rejecting people who aren’t part of “the meta”.

Now – the real issue is – how do you get people to stop rejecting other people? You can’t.

It’s every player’s right to play the way they want and with whom they want. If that means rejecting people based on whatever criteria – be it gear, class, AP or even character race there’s nothing people can do about it except complain.

Which isn’t going to help.

Potato potahto, as you say itself, it’s about rejection.

The rejection is why people complain.

They only have a point insofar as the rejection is kind of pointless.

~~~

The weird thing is that you read this as if people are going to force you to run with them. You can always reject people if that’s what gives you jollies, even the most extreme requests in the thread (nerfing zerker and changing gear balance) still won’t force you to play in what you think is a suboptimal way.

Yes but you are missing the point.
It’s not rejecting certain types of gear but certain types of people. The core issue is rejection.

If zerker was changed the people being rejected right now because they’re not meta would still be rejected for being non-meta and not wanted .

You want to fix “the meta issue” and I’m trying to explain why you can’t. People will reject people they don’t like or don’t want to play with. You are not fixing the problem by changing the zerker meta.

I think both of you might be a bit logically confused. Rejection is merely the ;reaction to the problem, not the problem, in itself. By arguing that rejection is somehow the problem, it would logically follow that the natural course players should to take to fix the problem is adopt the mindset that we should all just play together regardless of armor type – which, I think that we can all agree, doesn’t fix the problem. It’s a facade over the problem, it gives us the illusion that we can all play together in a world without vote-kicks, but that doesn’t mean groups that have formed that have players in full berserker gear will not still be more efficient at clearing content than those that do not.

Obviously, the core issue is at how effective berserker is in clearing content over other offensive armor combinations. If conditions could deal relatively close damage per second to a full power, berserker build, then it would be allowed in meta groups – but it can’t. For content that is geared towards speed-clearing, the only thing that can generate the same damage per second close to berserker is assassins, and that’s what’s wrong with the current state of the game.

Not saying rejection is a problem for me. It is a problem for those getting rejected and I can see how being tossed out of groups constantly makes them bitter and sad.

The problem is that they don’t turn inwards to see that maybe they should change and adapt but prefer to fill up the forums with tears.

So if there’s another set that puts out comparable damage as zerker then why is there a problem? Do people not like Assassin’s?

Conditions are broken – I agree – but I doubt anyone can fix them. 2 Years into the game and they haven’t been fixed. I think we all know why – they cant’t.

Harper.4173:

Not saying rejection is a problem for me. It is a problem for those getting rejected and I can see how being tossed out of groups constantly makes them bitter and sad. The problem is that they don’t turn inwards to see that maybe they should change and adapt but prefer to fill up the forums with tears.

So if there’s another set that puts out comparable damage as zerker then why is there a problem? Do people not like Assassin’s?

Conditions are broken – I agree – but I doubt anyone can fix them. 2 Years into the game and they haven’t been fixed. I think we all know why – they cant’t.

The problem with people whining about getting kicked out of berserker groups is that they keep joining them. It’s totally and utterly baffling to me how someone can see the efficiency in the berserker groups, and whine because they can’t be apart of them, but also at the same time want to sit comfortably in PTV armor types. I don’t feel sorry for them, and neither should ArenaNet.

Assassin’s armor combination is prec/power/ferocity. It’s the exact same stats as berserker, just the primary stat is precision instead of power. Secondly, conditions can be fixed; this is a virtual game run by code. Anything can be fixed, made, and adjusted.

Sparks The Rescue.5043:

Harper.4173:

Not saying rejection is a problem for me. It is a problem for those getting rejected and I can see how being tossed out of groups constantly makes them bitter and sad. The problem is that they don’t turn inwards to see that maybe they should change and adapt but prefer to fill up the forums with tears.

So if there’s another set that puts out comparable damage as zerker then why is there a problem? Do people not like Assassin’s?

Conditions are broken – I agree – but I doubt anyone can fix them. 2 Years into the game and they haven’t been fixed. I think we all know why – they cant’t.

The problem with people whining about getting kicked out of berserker groups is that they keep joining them. It’s totally and utterly baffling to me how someone can see the efficiency in the berserker groups, and whine because they can’t be apart of them, but also at the same time want to sit comfortably in PTV armor types. I don’t feel sorry for them, and neither should ArenaNet.

Assassin’s armor combination is prec/power/ferocity. It’s the exact same stats as berserker, just the primary stat is precision instead of power. Secondly, conditions can be fixed; this is a virtual game run by code. Anything can be fixed, made, and adjusted.

100% agree to that.

but: zerkergear is not everything.
way to often i see guys joining a “zerker-group” → picking up icebow → autoattack with icebow. yes! autoattack with icebow!
that’s like autoattacking as staffguardian.
I kick them instantly and they keep whining about that. (LFG description is something like: expert full zerk only)

Tao.5096:

On serious note.
Zerk Meta?

CoE Subject Alpha w/o stacking behind a boxes, walls, corners, etc.
GL.

Like these?

Tao.5096:

Point was that a heavy amount of majority does that.
As I understand that Environment given by developer is supposed to be used to your advantage, it still doesn’t change the fact that every boss in every path in every dungeon is done the same way – stack, might, lure, dps, next one -> repeat.
And that should have been changed long time ago.

Pugs are a bit behind the meta with 6-12 months. Some of them still believes 4 warr 1 mes meta is still a thing from 2012. /shrug
“stack” – melee has more damage
might – gives even more deepz
lure – positioning isn’t a bad thing
dps – until bosses can be tanked and healed to death, you must damage them to progress further
I have the feeling that you are completely new to MMO’s / gaming in general. Am i right?

Your baits arguments are kinda weak.

STRanger.5120:

hybrid.5027:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Please see my post a few posts above wherein I show how wrong this is.

Please accept that not everyone have to share your opinion.
The post above is about your opinion (it’s definitely good to have one, nothing against that), but the truth is that everything PvE related is about DPS and nothing else. So that’s what created zerker meta and that’s the reason why it’s still there.
This is my opinion, you’re free to have your own of course.

However, the game is built that way, especially in the dungeon scenario, where most of the dangerous “mechanics” can be skipped/glitched/avoided, therefore are not existant for speedrunners and is possible to run those in full zerker gear because of this.

Just FYI, I didn’t give an opinion. My response to you was factual. I could give plenty of opinions on plenty of things in this thread but I would likely be infracted due to hurt feels.

People fight because they want the shineys.

players == skritt.

Edit:

skritt who gets most shineys = best skritt.

Leo – It’s fun playing fast.
Please don’t make presumptions about “how I play” (>5K active hrs sitting here).

The game developers made this game without a trinity – you seem not to want to accept this. It was part of the mandate of the game.

TPMN.1483:

STRanger.5120:

TPMN.1483:

STRanger.5120:

hybrid.5027:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Please see my post a few posts above wherein I show how wrong this is.

Please accept that not everyone have to share your opinion.
The post above is about your opinion (it’s definitely good to have one, nothing against that), but the truth is that everything PvE related is about DPS and nothing else. So that’s what created zerker meta and that’s the reason why it’s still there.
This is my opinion, you’re free to have your own of course.

However, the game is built that way, especially in the dungeon scenario, where most of the dangerous “mechanics” can be skipped/glitched/avoided, therefore are not existant for speedrunners and is possible to run those in full zerker gear because of this.

No ‘mechanics’ are skipped – we actively ‘defend’ against them. You just dont notice the videos where we use control skills to prevent these from happening.

Please go play a different game if you want a holy trinity or traditional MMO with elves, death necros, fairys, vampires and such like.

I can even recommend a few for you !

Tell this to the trap floor in CM, where a shadowstep/another kind of teleport through the ceiling from the floor under it skips it, will ya? Or the last boss in the same dungeon (don’t know the path now), where it’s often intentionally bugged into a rock, so he can’t reach players outside of his AOE attacks which are easily dodgable….

Also, I neither look for another MMO, nor want a trinity system here, I just would like to see working PvE, not skip/glitch fest like it’s now…

Skipping mobs is a valid mechanic and part of meta play.
While I’m at it : " Stelth is a valid mechanic" and is encouraged to “skip” large portions of play.
Glitching is an exploit – let’s not discuss those here.

I understand these are probably your experiences – and this seems off topic to “meta” play tbh. Prehaps start a new thread?

We are talking about the “meta” and responding to the OP on the basis of “this meta has to end”

Can you tell me where I mentioned “stealth”?
And yeah, glitching is exploiting, exactly. How would you name bugging a boss to get stuck in place or teleporting through a ceiling to avoid a trap room?

Try this in without reporting a bug in a game where devs/GMs actually care about their PvE and you’ll see what happens…. I’ll give you a hint, the word has 3 letters, starts with a “b” and ends with “n”.

Also, for the comments like “try this encounter without stacking etc…”, I understand that some encounters are much harder without stacking, but that’s just a result of a poor design, and stacking as a “tactic” should never became a thing, however Anet forced players to it unfortunately….

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Tao.5096:

Point was that a heavy amount of majority does that.
As I understand that Environment given by developer is supposed to be used to your advantage, it still doesn’t change the fact that every boss in every path in every dungeon is done the same way – stack, might, lure, dps, next one -> repeat.
And that should have been changed long time ago.

Typical view of someone who has either:

1) never been in a meta group
2) only been carried by others who are doing all the active mitigation for them.

You may see this post for greater detail:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Carried-Players/first#post4476334

orly?
So, I’m carried because I gotta res rest of the downed party.
Or in Fotm I have to kill Anomaly alone.

Dunno what your linked post has to do with me.
Unless you posted it, because you feel hurt over my statement which imply that changes to bosses should have been made just like to Spider Queen in AC.

I don’t care what people wear and what trait set they have.
But I cba to go with zerkers/meta again to either res them all downed, solo half of the instance or see how they rage and leave because they die and blame others for it.

STRanger.5120:

Can you tell me where I mentioned “stealth”?
And yeah, glitching is exploiting, exactly. How would you name bugging a boss to get stuck in place or teleporting through a ceiling to avoid a trap room?

Try this in without reporting a bug in a game where devs/GMs actually care about their PvE and you’ll see what happens…. I’ll give you a hint, the word has 3 letters, starts with a “b” and ends with “n”.

Glitching is a big word for this, mister.
When you can blink through a wall/ceiling, it means the game detected a path through here was possible and calculated it as being a legit blink.

Else I’d pretty much ask for a b*n on all the players blinking in the PvP map “Battle of Khylo” to get to the mid point. Including the esports champions of the PvP games in China.

After all, according to you that’d be a glitch, amirite ?

Prehaps your the last one alive cause your wearing nomads gear?
You successfully kill the rest of the team by not contributing enough DPS so all skills and dodges are on cool down.

So if the new meta is stack on spider queen as it spawns and it dies in 2s – in full zerk with good people that don’t die as they use active defenses vs bad zerk (who don’t know about active defenses) that’s a problem and you will refuse to run with zerkers?

I remember pre launch, the devs talking about how:
If a big jotun tried to swing a huge club at your head either: You physically moved, or you’d find yourself a little headless. Also that you could mitigate the damage by other means, be it skills or armor.

There was quite a bit of effort on highlighting how the combat would be much more like engaging.

Few things to consider:
Whenever the topic of macros came up, the consensus has always been: theres not really any point in gw2. The combat is too dynamic/too varied. – Sounds like a good thing to me.

Active defences should be first line of defence – armor is there as a cushion in case you don’t move out of the way of the jotuns club in time.

gw2 is built in such a way that your character is seen as highly skilled, highly capable – amongst the best of their profession in tyria. – fact is, you’re meant to be able to decapitate some weak bandit with one swing of your greatsword. It is down to us, the players to utilise the amazing character we control.

Tao.5096:

orly?
So, I’m carried because I gotta res rest of the downed party.
Or in Fotm I have to kill Anomaly alone.

Dunno what your linked post has to do with me.
Unless you posted it, because you feel hurt over my statement which imply that changes to bosses should have been made just like to Spider Queen in AC.

I don’t care what people wear and what trait set they have.
But I cba to go with zerkers/meta again to either res them all downed, solo half of the instance or see how they rage and leave because they die and blame others for it.

orly ? Maybe said zerkers expected of you to know what you’re supposed to do and use the meta build to contribute.

Easy example :
- I made an alt account to pug incognito as I’m starting to get busted in pugs.
- I got into an AC run with two guardians a thief and a warrior as I was on elementalist.
- We get to SQ room. Thief knows his job and spawns her with a clever use of daggerstorm.
- I pop and Icebow in melee range, on spot, so we can deep freeze and kill quickly.
- I find it weird that I downed to burning and poison in just a few seconds.
- I realize guardians are ranging, one with my IB on auto an the other one with a staff.
- They complain about having to ress me. Insert random filthy zerker wiping the floor comment.
- I’m like guys please. Two guardians ranging, and no reflects ? Gawd, this was advertised as “zerk, experienced, meta builds”.
- One of them pings clerics : “I use this to ress zerkers”…
- I blamed them for my death, which was i deed their fault and left, baffled…

If you recognise yourself in this behaviour, please refrain from commenting

P.S : For the record I can solo AC on 4 classes, in zerker gear, in reasonable times. Don’t go “bad player” on me.

TPMN.1483:

Prehaps your the last one alive cause your wearing nomads gear?
You successfully kill the rest of the team by not contributing enough DPS so all skills and dodges are on cool down.

So if the new meta is stack on spider queen as it spawns and it dies in 2s – in full zerk with good people that don’t die as they use active defenses vs bad zerk (who don’t know about active defenses) that’s a problem and you will refuse to run with zerkers?

But you don’t need to be good to kill ac spider queen in 2s in full zerk. All you need is the proper spike rotations at the specific timeframe, that has nothing to do with being good at all. You can practically autopilot it.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

TPMN.1483:

Prehaps your the last one alive cause your wearing nomads gear?
You successfully kill the rest of the team by not contributing enough DPS so all skills and dodges are on cool down.

So if the new meta is stack on spider queen as it spawns and it dies in 2s – in full zerk with good people that don’t die as they use active defenses vs bad zerk (who don’t know about active defenses) that’s a problem and you will refuse to run with zerkers?

But you don’t need to be good to kill ac spider queen in 2s in full zerk. All you need is the proper spike rotations at the specific timeframe, that has nothing to do with being good at all. You can practically autopilot it.

Agreed. Problem is, most people are oblivious to those rotations, and just use every single skill when its off cooldown, regardless of what it does.

OR they AA with a frost bow.

OR something similarly stupid.

Edit:
AC is the first dungeon, so im pretty sure most would agree this “entry” dungeon, shouldn’t be that hard

Jana.6831:

Windsagio.1340:

They can encourage active play, which they’re doing, and they can fix clear balance issues, as they did with +Crit%,[…]

Did they really fix balancing issues? My condi Engi still gets no credit at world boss events and in WvW condi is now “op”, so how did this nerf fix anything? Genuine question.

Exactly my experience. Nerfing alternative builds never encourages gameplay it pidgeonholes players into a single gameplay so it’s definitely NOT a benefit at all to anyone.

They need to go back and fix the enormous number of nerfs they’ve made to PVE over the past 2 years in order to satisfy their E-sport desires. Killing PVE diversity and having broken mechanics in the name of sPVP isn’t a responsible move nor is it warranted, they COULD have balanced without ever affecting PVE in the first place but we are seeing that instead of doing the responsible thing in these balance patches, over and over and over again the nerfing is directly affecting PVE and that’s on TOP of the already broken systems on things like Condi stacking.

Sparks The Rescue.5043:

Harper.4173:

Not saying rejection is a problem for me. It is a problem for those getting rejected and I can see how being tossed out of groups constantly makes them bitter and sad. The problem is that they don’t turn inwards to see that maybe they should change and adapt but prefer to fill up the forums with tears.

So if there’s another set that puts out comparable damage as zerker then why is there a problem? Do people not like Assassin’s?

Conditions are broken – I agree – but I doubt anyone can fix them. 2 Years into the game and they haven’t been fixed. I think we all know why – they cant’t.

The problem with people whining about getting kicked out of berserker groups is that they keep joining them. It’s totally and utterly baffling to me how someone can see the efficiency in the berserker groups, and whine because they can’t be apart of them, but also at the same time want to sit comfortably in PTV armor types. I don’t feel sorry for them, and neither should ArenaNet.

Assassin’s armor combination is prec/power/ferocity. It’s the exact same stats as berserker, just the primary stat is precision instead of power. Secondly, conditions can be fixed; this is a virtual game run by code. Anything can be fixed, made, and adjusted.

“Anything can be fixed, made, and adjusted.” within the technical boundaries that the game engine imposes.

And sadly – from my limited understanding of GW2’s situation they can’t seem to get the conditions to work properly with the way the game’s internals read and apply the damage.

Something about too many calculations or whatnot. I’m not an expert.

Either way – I think if it was as simple as “changing some code” they would have given us at least a partial fix by now.

Not trying to insult anyone but as I read this topic I see a lot of responses like “if they don’t die as fast as the group we know they are not wearing berserkers, and therefore will be kicked.” Like thats a bad thing, your punishing someone for not dying along with the group…? Some really weird backwards game playing that I don’t fully understand, and the more people try to rationalize it the more it seems like its toxic and needs to be changed.

Ok, some people like playing DPS, others like being more tanky, others like being more support. I would think the problem is that groups are being too exclusive now (pretty much for no reason, dungeons are all really easy) when there is really no need for it. How defensive the pro berserker meta people get is bizarre and again, probably why its going to get nerfed in the near future.

Enaretos.8079:

Tao.5096:

Point was that a heavy amount of majority does that.
As I understand that Environment given by developer is supposed to be used to your advantage, it still doesn’t change the fact that every boss in every path in every dungeon is done the same way – stack, might, lure, dps, next one -> repeat.
And that should have been changed long time ago.

Bad players will range in random gear with PHIW builds.
Average player will attempt to use meta builds and will LoS, etc… as it’s easier.
Good players are extremely bored atm and will either :
- devise new tactics
- yolo the encounter
- low-man their dungeon tour

How could you forget drunk dungeon tours!?!

Wolfmoon.2976:

Not trying to insult anyone but as I read this topic I see a lot of responses like “if they don’t die as fast as the group we know they are not wearing berserkers, and therefore will be kicked.” Like thats a bad thing, your punishing someone for not dying along with the group…? Some really weird backwards game playing that I don’t fully understand, and the more people try to rationalize it the more it seems like its toxic and needs to be changed.

Ok, some people like playing DPS, others like being more tanky, others like being more support. I would think the problem is that groups are being too exclusive now (pretty much for no reason, dungeons are all really easy) when there is really no need for it. How defensive the pro berserker meta people get is bizarre and again, probably why its going to get nerfed in the near future.

I think what they meant is they would see how much damage you take before you go down to know if you are zerk or not. People who really understand the dungeon and pay attention can see that the ele who facetanks two lupi kicks in a row to know that he isn’t zerk or that the thief who manage to take a rocket to the face and live in cm p3 isn’t a zerk etc.

Galen Grey.4709:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

I don’t think the trinity affects as much as people think. In most games with a trinity the class/profession you choose will decide what role you will be taking, whether its DPS, tank, or healing. In a game like GW1 there was a trinity but almost any class could fill any role. Yes I know some primary classes were tankier because of armor but the skills made it so anyone could do anything.

In GW2 every class pretty much has the ability to do anything also. Sure some classes are better at some things but most classes can fill multiple roles depending on build. The problem is that there is not any content that warrants having a healer or a tank. Since most dangerous things are conditions that can be easily removed and straight damage that is easily dodged, experience, skill and DPS will rule all encounters and dictate the meta. This is the core issue that those asking for zerker to be nerfed do not understand.

Until something is done about conditions and dodging the meta will stay where its at. I also want to say I am not asking for dodging or conditions to get nerfed. They just need to be reworked a little bit.

Thats exactly the thing I am speaking about though. When you say “The problem is that there is not any content that warrants having a healer or a tank.” Thats what other MMOs do to force people in those roles. It is simply impossible to have content that warrants a healer and a tank and at the same time leaves you free to play any role you want and at the same time it also allows you the freedom to play any role you want on any class.

Case in point is when you say "Since most dangerous things are conditions that can be easily removed " Thats a support role right there even though in this case you’re supporting yourself so to speak.

DPS rules everything everywhere because naturally thats what you want when you’re trying to kill stuff. Its Like I said not everyone goes DPS in other MMOs simply because content is designed as such that without having tank and healer you’re going to fail. Tanks and healers in those games pay the same price someone who doesnt go full damage in this game pays and to a higher degree. Lets not forget that Tanks and healer classes are great in dungeons and raids in those games but they’re the worst roles you can having in all other PvE. Especially healer they’re orders of magnitude slower to level then a straight up DPS build much much much worst then you get in this game if you go with a support build. Its basically excepted over there cause the game puts a gun to player’s head in like 5% of the content where not having a healer means a guaranteed failure.

I agree with everything you said. What I meant about conditions is that the system needs to be reworked so that it is viable for players to use in any kind of PVE without it becoming so OP in PVP. The devs have acknowledged this and have said its too hard so I would not count on it anytime soon.

I agree with you on the getting stuck in a rut waiting on a healer is lame in every game with dedicated healers. Classes in this game can fill any roll though. A warrior specked for shouts makes a great healer for instance. So I don’t think this game would be quite as bad as others if content was created that required more healing and defenses. I think that’s one of the biggest problems that many games have with a trinity is that only 1 or 2 classes can fill certain roles. In this game pretty much anyone can fill the role and still play very much like a DPS.

I would not change any existing content to fill this gap though. That is something I think they really messed up on in the past with Teq and a few other things. Its not that I don’t like what they did, I just think they should have created completely new content that did the same thing and left the old stuff as it was.

Overall though I think zerker meta should be the last of peoples worries. No matter what gets changed there will always be a meta because people like to do things fast and efficiently. The only change in any part of the meta I see is people changing up some skills/traits to get the defenses and healing needed for a particular encounter. I seriously doubt we will ever see any kind of content that requires someone with maxed out healing or maxed out toughness/vitality.

Wolfmoon.2976:

Not trying to insult anyone but as I read this topic I see a lot of responses like “if they don’t die as fast as the group we know they are not wearing berserkers, and therefore will be kicked.” Like thats a bad thing, your punishing someone for not dying along with the group…? Some really weird backwards game playing that I don’t fully understand, and the more people try to rationalize it the more it seems like its toxic and needs to be changed.

Ok, some people like playing DPS, others like being more tanky, others like being more support. I would think the problem is that groups are being too exclusive now (pretty much for no reason, dungeons are all really easy) when there is really no need for it. How defensive the pro berserker meta people get is bizarre and again, probably why its going to get nerfed in the near future.

The stigma comes from an “all marbles in” perspective. If everyone’s marbles are in, we will win, if we aren’t winning because these numbers tell us, then the conclusion is that someone isn’t putting all of his marbles in, and there is tons and tons of evidence that proves this case.

The real problem here is that the PvE content allows this to happen.

This only happens in dungeons, dungeons are like a minor part of the game, every other part of the game you’re required to theorycraft and test combinations to achieve best results, wvw, pvp, world bosses, im getting tired of having this same thread every 3 days here.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Wolfmoon.2976:

Not trying to insult anyone but as I read this topic I see a lot of responses like “if they don’t die as fast as the group we know they are not wearing berserkers, and therefore will be kicked.” Like thats a bad thing, your punishing someone for not dying along with the group…? Some really weird backwards game playing that I don’t fully understand, and the more people try to rationalize it the more it seems like its toxic and needs to be changed.

Ok, some people like playing DPS, others like being more tanky, others like being more support. I would think the problem is that groups are being too exclusive now (pretty much for no reason, dungeons are all really easy) when there is really no need for it. How defensive the pro berserker meta people get is bizarre and again, probably why its going to get nerfed in the near future.

The stigma comes from an “all marbles in” perspective. If everyone’s marbles are in, we will win, if we aren’t winning because these numbers tell us, then the conclusion is that someone isn’t putting all of his marbles in, and there is tons and tons of evidence that proves this case.

The real problem here is that the PvE content allows this to happen.

Your right. This is something I think Anet needs to address and fix.

Wolfmoon.2976:

Not trying to insult anyone but as I read this topic I see a lot of responses like “if they don’t die as fast as the group we know they are not wearing berserkers, and therefore will be kicked.” Like thats a bad thing, your punishing someone for not dying along with the group…? Some really weird backwards game playing that I don’t fully understand, and the more people try to rationalize it the more it seems like its toxic and needs to be changed.

Ok, some people like playing DPS, others like being more tanky, others like being more support. I would think the problem is that groups are being too exclusive now (pretty much for no reason, dungeons are all really easy) when there is really no need for it. How defensive the pro berserker meta people get is bizarre and again, probably why its going to get nerfed in the near future.

I highlighted key phrase for you.

You skimmed without understanding.

Scenario:

Bosses uses its heavy attack.

Zerker player: would die (if they fail with an active defence).

Random pug: does not die, and still has 50% or more health.

They joined a group advertising for zerkers.

Reason this is a problem for the zerkers:

We have a finite number of active defences. IF you do not have enough sustained dps to kill an enemy before you have used them all, you will die wipe.

Not being in the correct gear hinders your dps output, thus making you a liability to the rest of the team.

People don’t get kicked for not dying. They get kicked for lying about their builds/gear to get into a group where they are not only: a) not pulling their weight; b) a liability that may cause the team to die.

The whole idea of the meta is knowing when/how/which to use active defences, meaning you don’t need extra defensive stats to keep you alive. Result: more dps can be achieved.

Do you understand why people even have to lie/post different gear to even get in a group nowadays? Everyone is so convinced that the only way to do a dungeon is to wear full berserkers gear.

I have run every single dungeon and fractals to 30+ on my rabid short bow trap ranger and never had a problem, complaint, or kick. I’ve been playing since launch.

Its pretty simple. If you advertised zerker and you see evidence that someone isnt zerker. You are well within your rights to remove them from the group. Some people are more tolerant some arent. Respecting LFG descriptions would prevent this from happening in the first place. :P

Wolfmoon.2976:

Do you understand why people even have to lie/post different gear to even get in a group nowadays? Everyone is so convinced that the only way to do a dungeon is to wear full berserkers gear.

I have run every single dungeon and fractals to 30+ on my rabid short bow trap ranger and never had a problem, complaint, or kick. I’ve been playing since launch.

That is because the game is designed in such a way as you CAN do that.

This is the point. The meta isnt the ONLY way.

The meta isn’t just one way either.

The meta is just there because its faster. More loots. players == skritt.

Edit:
Just don’t expect others to have to run things slower with you. Respect the LFG descriptions <rant about people who cant read lfg descriptions/>

Neat how most of the complaints on this subject can be solved with a simple “Make your own group.”

How does this manage to escape so many players? O.o

dlonie.6547:

Neat how most of the complaints on this subject can be solved with a simple “Make your own group.”

How does this manage to escape so many players? O.o

I find many pugs can’t read lfg descriptions either so.. Mixture of: it should, but often doesn’t; and some (or many) want to be carried by others who know what to do. They are unwilling to actually learn the game for themselves.

Ok, this is more addressed to Gaile or other Dev reading, but maybe it is time to re-emphasize this :

Mike O brien.4613

We want to talk design philosophy with you and hear how you want to see the game evolve.

From the “Communicating with you” thread.

This debate about “meta”, gear stat, and stacking strategy comes every second day on the forum and only ends up in empty discussions (I think) because everyone think that the devs wanted the game to be like that or not.
In the end it would be cool to have one of the devs (I think few years ago, Izzy wrote the blogpost about stats) clearly explaining how they see the game in term of itemization, encounter strat and if they are happy with that or not and eventually give an idea of how they would like it to evolve.
The game as it is now is a result of a long process of design (with several iterations) and I’m sure that there is a philosophy under the choices made. It would be nice to share them with us now.
Maybe some players will be disappointed that there will be an evolution of the gearing stats towards something they don’t want (or the contrary) but right now this is only players arguing over and over about the same topic without any real ending. If there would be a nice answer stating the game design philosophy then when such a topic arises this could be an answer to refer to.

Enaretos.8079

Hey guys, seems like this thread hasn’t died yet, time to add some more stuff to it yay

Explanations be explanations :

- viable build in GW2 = gear + traits + utilities that can be used to complete some content. As such, 5 condinecros are viable as you can clear the content with them. A character 7 levels under mob level isn’t viable as all hits are misses or glancing. Plus the huge agro range and the fact that you’re one shot by everything.

Not really true. By your definition of viable, a 7lvls under character certainly is viable since I often level in such circumstances and tried it once in a guild in SE (although it was only 5lvls under). So long as you aren’t 10 levels under (in which the mobs will make a bee-line for you ASAP without fail while ignoring everything else), I’m sure a team of -7s can accomplish finishing a dungeon, although by the end of it, they might not be -7 anymore.

maddoctor.2738

I know Guardian/Elementalist/Warrior/Engineer and maybe even Ranger and Necromancer can do a similar job as in that video, but can a Thief/Mesmer really get that high level of sustain even with maximum healing gear? I’m just curious here

Yes, Mesmer can be built with high levels of sustain. It’s likely the best healer in the game thanks to Restorative Mantras. Phantasmal Healing is great coupled with Phantasmal Defender and you pretty much have neigh unkillable phantasms that take damage for you while also regenerating and you healing them occasionally with mantras.

Enaretos.8079

Bad players will range in random gear with PHIW builds.
Average player will attempt to use meta builds and will LoS, etc… as it’s easier.
Good players are extremely bored atm and will either :
– devise new tactics
– yolo the encounter
– low-man their dungeon tour

So as a good player, you wouldn’t mind the average amount of dodges being shaved down to around 1 per 25sec instead of 1per 10, and conditions having only a chance of proc’ing with no condition speccing, boon frequency and duration dialed back so you can’t use it as a crutch (unless you spec for it, that is) along with encounters being varied to spice things up?

I mean, you’re a good player, right? What’s a little more risk on your plate going to do?

Harper.4173

Great.
People do it for the cash – the fast loot and rewards.
Start sending people gold to not do it and I’m sure they won’t.

I personally would love to do a full clear of AC p1 for example if you gave me 10 gold for it.

Let me get this straight.

You don’t fight for fun?

TPMN.1483:

Leo – It’s fun playing fast.
Please don’t make presumptions about “how I play” (>5K active hrs sitting here).

The game developers made this game without a trinity – you seem not to want to accept this. It was part of the mandate of the game.

Don’t assume you know what I’d suggest to improve the game. And nowhere in the mandate of the game does it say the manner you decide to play is the right or intended goal of the game…but again, don’t presume you have the perspective to dismiss others’ feedback wholesale, condescending tone or no.

Tao.5096:

orly?
So, I’m carried because I gotta res rest of the downed party.
Or in Fotm I have to kill Anomaly alone.

Dunno what your linked post has to do with me.
Unless you posted it, because you feel hurt over my statement which imply that changes to bosses should have been made just like to Spider Queen in AC.

I don’t care what people wear and what trait set they have.
But I cba to go with zerkers/meta again to either res them all downed, solo half of the instance or see how they rage and leave because they die and blame others for it.

You’re using bad players as an example for why their build/setup is bad. Experienced dungeon guilds will complete all these encounters without anyone requiring ressurection. They will kill most bosses on the spawn and use active defenses to stay alive.

Ranael.6423:

Ok, this is more addressed to Gaile or other Dev reading, but maybe it is time to re-emphasize this :

Mike O brien.4613

We want to talk design philosophy with you and hear how you want to see the game evolve.

From the “Communicating with you” thread.

This debate about “meta”, gear stat, and stacking strategy comes every second day on the forum and only ends up in empty discussions (I think) because everyone think that the devs wanted the game to be like that or not.
In the end it would be cool to have one of the devs (I think few years ago, Izzy wrote the blogpost about stats) clearly explaining how they see the game in term of itemization, encounter strat and if they are happy with that or not and eventually give an idea of how they would like it to evolve.
The game as it is now is a result of a long process of design (with several iterations) and I’m sure that there is a philosophy under the choices made. It would be nice to share them with us now.
Maybe some players will be disappointed that there will be an evolution of the gearing stats towards something they don’t want (or the contrary) but right now this is only players arguing over and over about the same topic without any real ending. If there would be a nice answer stating the game design philosophy then when such a topic arises this could be an answer to refer to.

I doubt any devs would still be reading page 11 of this drivel ;-) But agreed, there are a lot of things that could be cleared up if they’d just talk with us!

My stand from the start of the game that the gear shoud only be cosmetic, statless. But than, we would be having topics like “Time to fix #endlessblinkinglfg(input whatever you want) meta build”. People will always be complaining.
This is active combat game so I’m all against passive tanking. What I really want is fix to the conditions and different approach when making encounters. Few of the guys here were so kind and patient with argumenting why zerk is the meta and why would be bad to change it.
Make your own LFG and play with people with the same mindset, I’m lucky that I have friends that like to do speedclears and we enjoy them. Tho more and more of them are quiting because of the stale content.

dlonie.6547:

Neat how most of the complaints on this subject can be solved with a simple “Make your own group.”

How does this manage to escape so many players? O.o

It isn’t escaping them. They have different motivations than they’re saying.

• Some people want to join any PuG they want whenever they want, with whatever setup they want. They don’t want to form their own “anything goes group” and they don’t want to wait for someone else to do so.
• Some of them would prefer a trinity setup so they could stand out because of their taunts and defensive gear or their uber healing skills, rather than standing out by knowing how to vary their traits and skills and by their active play.
• Some of them would prefer more engaging encounters and for some strange reason believe that gear is the reason encounters are boring, when the real reason is lack of new, challenging group content.

IndigoSundown.5419:

dlonie.6547:

Neat how most of the complaints on this subject can be solved with a simple “Make your own group.”

How does this manage to escape so many players? O.o

It isn’t escaping them. They have different motivations than they’re saying.

• Some people want to join any PuG they want whenever they want, with whatever setup they want. They don’t want to form their own “anything goes group” and they don’t want to wait for someone else to do so.
• Some of them would prefer a trinity setup so they could stand out because of their taunts and defensive gear or their uber healing skills, rather than standing out by knowing how to vary their traits and skills and by their active play.
• Some of them would prefer more engaging encounters and for some strange reason believe that gear is the reason encounters are boring, when the real reason is lack of new, challenging group content.

Pure lazyness… And then they complain

Enaretos.8079:

orly ? Maybe said zerkers expected of you to know what you’re supposed to do and use the meta build to contribute.

What am I supposed to contribute except dps as warrior, give fury, might, precision and power to others? Should I also drop 10k heals with 1sec interval?
Because hi, I’m in zerk gear, I used my dodges and poof I got one shot because there was a red circle I didn’t move from.
or in Fotm on anomaly.
Because platforms disappear under my feet and I die.
u.u

Enaretos.8079:

Easy example :
- I made an alt account to pug incognito as I’m starting to get busted in pugs.

I see.

- I got into an AC run with two guardians a thief and a warrior as I was on elementalist.

TA Marona – 3 Guardians and 0 Reflect Shield.
Happened few more times with different groups.

- We get to SQ room. Thief knows his job and spawns her with a clever use of daggerstorm.

you can do that in Sentinel gear too. Has nothing to do with zerk gear.
I didn’t say that everyone in random LFG are clueless.
I appreciate tricks, knowledge and experience.

- I pop and Icebow in melee range, on spot, so we can deep freeze and kill quickly.

Ele isn’t a mandatory.

- I find it weird that I downed to burning and poison in just a few seconds.

Aggro issues ele has. Not everyone know it – especially people who play tanky classes.

- I realize guardians are ranging, one with my IB on auto an the other one with a staff.

I love this part where a Class that’s supposed to tank and eat everything while having access to various defending boons along with skills that protect teammates to actually dps like a Ranger with longbow.

- They complain about having to ress me. Insert random filthy zerker wiping the floor comment.
- I’m like guys please. Two guardians ranging, and no reflects ? Gawd, this was advertised as “zerk, experienced, meta builds”.
- One of them pings clerics : “I use this to ress zerkers”…
- I blamed them for my death, which was i deed their fault and left, baffled…

Should have go with people you know instead people you don’t know.
Right at this moment a group of funny ohmaigawds in knight, soldier, celestial, or w/e else gear is already 1 encounter ahead of you.

If you recognise yourself in this behaviour, please refrain from commenting

Did you just write this wall of text while thinking I’m some wannabe Guardian?

P.S : For the record I can solo AC on 4 classes, in zerker gear, in reasonable times. Don’t go “bad player” on me.

I can solo AC with one hand and in bikini.

On serious note.
I didn’t say that zerk meta is bad.
Your and that other guy reasoning for my posts seem too much hateful and you seem to not read with understanding while stopping after first 5 words and think " oh, it’s another meta hater who doesn’t know a thing or w/e".

Like I said before. I don’t care who wears what and what traits he has.
Knowing the mechanics and countering it’s special attacks is fine and enough for me.
Boss system doesn’t punish groups for lack of cooperation – there is nothing like Boss goes on rampage or w/e.
If I’ll spend 2 mins longer in one path, it won’t kill me.
I only stated my bad experience with zerkers and Metas, which made me only waste my time and nerves.
And that is only because, most of those people have ego on level over9000 and deny their own mistakes meanwhile flaming and raging on others. And it doesn’t help at all.
I want normal and successful runs, not filled with egoboosted prOs who act like a bellybutton of the world.

Tao.5096:

Enaretos.8079:

- I got into an AC run with two guardians a thief and a warrior as I was on elementalist.

TA Marona – 3 Guardians and 0 Reflect Shield.
Happened few more times with different groups.

You cant reflect or block malrona anymore.

spoj.9672:

Tao.5096:

Enaretos.8079:

- I got into an AC run with two guardians a thief and a warrior as I was on elementalist.

TA Marona – 3 Guardians and 0 Reflect Shield.
Happened few more times with different groups.

You cant reflect or block malrona anymore.

Maybe he wanted Light Field for the Area Retaliation.

Ranael.6423:

Ok, this is more addressed to Gaile or other Dev reading, but maybe it is time to re-emphasize this :

Mike O brien.4613

We want to talk design philosophy with you and hear how you want to see the game evolve.

From the “Communicating with you” thread.

This debate about “meta”, gear stat, and stacking strategy comes every second day on the forum and only ends up in empty discussions (I think) because everyone think that the devs wanted the game to be like that or not.
In the end it would be cool to have one of the devs (I think few years ago, Izzy wrote the blogpost about stats) clearly explaining how they see the game in term of itemization, encounter strat and if they are happy with that or not and eventually give an idea of how they would like it to evolve.
The game as it is now is a result of a long process of design (with several iterations) and I’m sure that there is a philosophy under the choices made. It would be nice to share them with us now.
Maybe some players will be disappointed that there will be an evolution of the gearing stats towards something they don’t want (or the contrary) but right now this is only players arguing over and over about the same topic without any real ending. If there would be a nice answer stating the game design philosophy then when such a topic arises this could be an answer to refer to.

Certainly there was a philosophy however why aren’t you quoting them when they were talking about itemization being a thing of the past a year before launch where power creep was very much on the chopping block? Why didn’t you look into the philosophy behind that when their philosophy was to make the stats you needed stickied to the spec you chose huh? Where’s that thread? because this system isn’t designed completely, there are several holes in it from a designers and mathematicians perspective. People keep spouting the false notion that they are doing something different, yeah they are, they are using a well established system of stats from gear but then making those stats absolutely useless by not completing the picture behind getting those stats which is the key reason why Zerker is the meta right now. It’s not the mobs fault when you put on healing gear and it doesn’t affect half your healing abilities or regen or even rezing for that matter, it’s not the mobs fault when you put on toughness gear and it doesn’t increase your endurance regen, or how about crit on condition builds when crits do nothing to help condis because of the design flaws there?

It’s math people, it’s all the same under the hood when you make gear decide what your stats should be, at least it should be on a well designed fully completed design for combat.

Nokaru.7831:

spoj.9672:

Tao.5096:

Enaretos.8079:

- I got into an AC run with two guardians a thief and a warrior as I was on elementalist.

TA Marona – 3 Guardians and 0 Reflect Shield.
Happened few more times with different groups.

You cant reflect or block malrona anymore.

Maybe he wanted Light Field for the Area Retaliation.

Or cleansing bolts. Don’t wanna keep that Malrona poison debuff, yanno, I hear it’s OP!

(:-P)

I do love it when people self destruct by making it obvious they arent that knowledgeable about the current meta.

Tao.5096:

TA Marona – 3 Guardians and 0 Reflect Shield.
Happened few more times with different groups.

Did you just write this wall of text while thinking I’m some wannabe Guardian?

The taste, the touch. The sights, the sounds.

Why are we focused on gear though?

Traits are where the “meta” actually sits. Traits are what determines whether someone can for example, share their boons, or not.

I’ve seen rangers in zerker gear who had condition traits, downed traits, fall damage traits, arrow piercing traits, reviving traits.

The real meta is in stacking those +% damages while berzerker gear is only the complimentary stat combo. (Following the EVE rule: Don’t mix guns.) It’s the whole reason we use berzerker gear, because it does not contradict that build.

Other gear types and builds work in PvP. In fact, the tanky/healy types tend to wipe the floor with zerkers in Courtyard (Team Deathmatch.) So what does that tell you?

PvE is the issue. PvE just isn’t creating the situations where players are receiving so much chaos (faster enemy attack rates, CC spam, enemies that kite, reapplied conditions) that they have to tank and heal because they don’t have enough dodges. PvE isn’t providing situations where they have to split up and hold points against enemies who have a lot of dodges and neat tricks of their own.

As long as the dungeons are left at “stack on this corner and dodge every 7 seconds or so” then yes +50% damage does equal -50% time before reward. Wait, I think I just committed a math infraction. It’s not the gear’s fault.

GW1 had player mimicking enemies and it was cool.

DarkWasp.7291:

Why are we focused on gear though?

Traits are where the “meta” actually sits. Traits are what determines whether someone can for example, share their boons, or not.

I’ve seen rangers in zerker gear who had condition traits, downed traits, fall damage traits, arrow piercing traits, reviving traits.

The real meta is in stacking those +% damages while berzerker gear is only the complimentary stat combo. (Following the EVE rule: Don’t mix guns.) It’s the whole reason we use berzerker gear, because it does not contradict that build.

Other gear types and builds work in PvP. In fact, the tanky/healy types tend to wipe the floor with zerkers in Courtyard (Team Deathmatch.) So what does that tell you?

PvE is the issue. PvE just isn’t creating the situations where players are receiving so much chaos (faster enemy attack rates, CC spam, enemies that kite, reapplied conditions) that they have to tank and heal because they don’t have enough dodges. PvE isn’t providing situations where they have to split up and hold points against enemies who have a lot of dodges and neat tricks of their own.

As long as the dungeons are left at “stack on this corner and dodge every 7 seconds or so” then yes +50% damage does equal -50% time before reward. It’s not the gear’s fault.

GW1 had player mimicking enemies and it was cool.

quoting until this point gets across.

Wolfmoon.2976:

Not trying to insult anyone but as I read this topic I see a lot of responses like “if they don’t die as fast as the group we know they are not wearing berserkers, and therefore will be kicked.” Like thats a bad thing, your punishing someone for not dying along with the group…? Some really weird backwards game playing that I don’t fully understand, and the more people try to rationalize it the more it seems like its toxic and needs to be changed.

Ok, some people like playing DPS, others like being more tanky, others like being more support. I would think the problem is that groups are being too exclusive now (pretty much for no reason, dungeons are all really easy) when there is really no need for it. How defensive the pro berserker meta people get is bizarre and again, probably why its going to get nerfed in the near future.

No – I stated above they are being “punished” for lying their way into a group that didn’t want them.

If the group LFG reads : full zerker and you are not full zerker then you have no business being there in the first place.

You’re getting kicked not because you’re not dying but because you’re abusing people’s right to play with whomever they want.

If I want full zerkers that’s a right I have. If you’re not zerker and snuck in against my explicit requirements then you’re getting kicked. That’s fair.

It has nothing to do with them dying or not. They could be insanely good and never die or terrible and be permadead. It’s about their attitude – which is the problem.

Don’t go where you’re not wanted.

Nerfing or not nerfing this meta in the future will not change the “pro zerker player’s” attitude towards those that aren’t like them. They’ll still exclude.