Guild Wars 2

Wolfmoon.2976:

Do you understand why people even have to lie/post different gear to even get in a group nowadays? Everyone is so convinced that the only way to do a dungeon is to wear full berserkers gear.

I have run every single dungeon and fractals to 30+ on my rabid short bow trap ranger and never had a problem, complaint, or kick. I’ve been playing since launch.

Because people are too lazy to find their own group or find similarly minded players to play with.
Also because people are selfish and don’t care about being decent and respecting other’s rights to play the way they want to – including full zerker parties.

So on the one hand you complain that your way of playing is being “left out” and “pushed aside” and are forced to lie to get in groups but on the other hand you abuse people’s rights to play how they want in their groups just as much by sneaking in.

That’s what the kick function is there for.

Leo G.4501:

Let me get this straight.
You don’t fight for fun?

I fight for the loot. The loot is my fun. Not the fight itself.
I’ve done the fight itself so many times I can’t really call it engaging or fun anymore. I’ve just done it too many times.

I do it for the loot.

DarkWasp.7291:

PvE is the issue. PvE just isn’t creating the situations where players are receiving so much chaos (faster enemy attack rates, CC spam, enemies that kite, reapplied conditions) that they have to tank and heal because they don’t have enough dodges. PvE isn’t providing situations where they have to split up and hold points against enemies who have a lot of dodges and neat tricks of their own.

Because apart from a few voices on the forum players don’t actually want that.

You know where in this game that happens? Dredge fractal. The universally hated fractal.

Also the dredge as enemies come close to your vision of PVE and you know what? I’m going to bet money that the majority of players in this game hate the dredge.

This game is not designed to force you to tank and heal. If it did that for high skill level players it would absolutely demolish mid-tier and low-tier players.

Imagine it – content that forced the best of the best in tanky gear and forced someone to go full healer.
Now imagine what it’ll do to the random PUG group. And there you have it. It would murder them.

Why is that bad? Because video games fulfill a power fantasy – where you are the hero and killer of all bad things that wins at everything forever.

If that fantasy is no longer fulfilled players don’t want to play and Anet’s Gem Store revenue goes down.

It’s as simple as 2+2 = 4 really.

Sparks The Rescue.5043:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

The core issue is that the “Berzerker Meta” is all about rejecting other gear combinations and styles, that’s why it generates so much annoyance.

It’s more about rejecting people who aren’t part of “the meta”.

Now – the real issue is – how do you get people to stop rejecting other people? You can’t.

It’s every player’s right to play the way they want and with whom they want. If that means rejecting people based on whatever criteria – be it gear, class, AP or even character race there’s nothing people can do about it except complain.

Which isn’t going to help.

Potato potahto, as you say itself, it’s about rejection.

The rejection is why people complain.

They only have a point insofar as the rejection is kind of pointless.

~~~

The weird thing is that you read this as if people are going to force you to run with them. You can always reject people if that’s what gives you jollies, even the most extreme requests in the thread (nerfing zerker and changing gear balance) still won’t force you to play in what you think is a suboptimal way.

Yes but you are missing the point.
It’s not rejecting certain types of gear but certain types of people. The core issue is rejection.

If zerker was changed the people being rejected right now because they’re not meta would still be rejected for being non-meta and not wanted .

You want to fix “the meta issue” and I’m trying to explain why you can’t. People will reject people they don’t like or don’t want to play with. You are not fixing the problem by changing the zerker meta.

I think both of you might be a bit logically confused. Rejection is merely the ;reaction to the problem, not the problem, in itself. By arguing that rejection is somehow the problem, it would logically follow that the natural course players should to take to fix the problem is adopt the mindset that we should all just play together regardless of armor type – which, I think that we can all agree, doesn’t fix the problem. It’s a facade over the problem, it gives us the illusion that we can all play together in a world without vote-kicks, but that doesn’t mean groups that have formed that have players in full berserker gear will not still be more efficient at clearing content than those that do not.

Obviously, the core issue is at how effective berserker is in clearing content over other offensive armor combinations. If conditions could deal relatively close damage per second to a full power, berserker build, then it would be allowed in meta groups – but it can’t. For content that is geared towards speed-clearing, the only thing that can generate the same damage per second close to berserker is assassins, and that’s what’s wrong with the current state of the game.

My understanding is as follows:

The ‘zerker meta’ problem is a social problem not a gameplay problem. Both the people who insist that people who don’t play their way are ‘bads’ and the people who insist on trying to join those groups (for whatever the reason) are parts of the problem.

The exclusiveness of group 1 severely poisoned the dungeon scene and discouraged people in general, but the people in group 2 are just being bullheaded.

I simply can’t grok peoples’ attitudes on the subject, it’s like they’re desperately searching for something to distinguish themselves and scale and/or significance aren’t even part of the calculation, as long as it’s something they can grasp onto.

Harper.4173:

DarkWasp.7291:

PvE is the issue. PvE just isn’t creating the situations where players are receiving so much chaos (faster enemy attack rates, CC spam, enemies that kite, reapplied conditions) that they have to tank and heal because they don’t have enough dodges. PvE isn’t providing situations where they have to split up and hold points against enemies who have a lot of dodges and neat tricks of their own.

Because apart from a few voices on the forum players don’t actually want that.

You know where in this game that happens? Dredge fractal. The universally hated fractal.

Also the dredge as enemies come close to your vision of PVE and you know what? I’m going to bet money that the majority of players in this game hate the dredge.

This game is not designed to force you to tank and heal. If it did that for high skill level players it would absolutely demolish mid-tier and low-tier players.

Imagine it – content that forced the best of the best in tanky gear and forced someone to go full healer.
Now imagine what it’ll do to the random PUG group. And there you have it. It would murder them.

Why is that bad? Because video games fulfill a power fantasy – where you are the hero and killer of all bad things that wins at everything forever.

If that fantasy is no longer fulfilled players don’t want to play and Anet’s Gem Store revenue goes down.

It’s as simple as 2+2 = 4 really.

Anet’s Gem Store sales have been plummeting anyways while the zerker meta is maintained by the community group.

If a faux power fantasy is the main justification of the zerker meta then we can conclude that the zerker meta can never be associated with high player skill under any circumstances.

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

Let me get this straight.
You don’t fight for fun?

I fight for the loot. The loot is my fun. Not the fight itself.
I’ve done the fight itself so many times I can’t really call it engaging or fun anymore. I’ve just done it too many times.

I do it for the loot.

That sounds like an issue to be resolved. Why not make a constructive thread about it? It feels like wasted time and effort to spend posts on a thread you don’t like or have said your peace on.

But to me, the main solution I see from those that share your perspective is to just make more tough content. A decent suggestion but it had its flaws just like the idea behind the OP. Still can’t hurt to put theory behind it.

Holy crap, how are these threads still happening? You don’t have to play with any specific build/gear. If you are interested in the Speed Clear community, you will most likely have to abide by the rules of that community.

This is the case in GW2, it was the case in trinity MMOs and games like GW1. Yes, there were more skills in GW1. They were however un-swappable mid instance and tied to weapons for utility and attributes. This meant that you needed to spec a very certain way to participate in the GW1 Speed Clear community.

Want to bring your random mix-match paragon into a UWSC? lol….good luck finding a group. Here, bring a random Bonetti’s troll farmer warrior into DoA…again nope. There were specific builds expected to be run by every class and every player. Variation was of course necessary for niche areas or strategies; innovation is always necessary. For the most part however, if you wanted to chase speed or efficiency as a team, you were expected to play your class, your build, and your role.

No one stopped you from going 8 Water Eles into FoW just like no one is stopping you from going 5 P/P Apothecary Thieves into Arah.

If you’re pestering Speed Guilds and groups under the false pretense of being competent and geared to their specifications, you’re a part of the problem. Don’t like em, don’t play with em. Don’t agree with em, don’t play with em.

DarkWasp.7291:

PvE is the issue. PvE just isn’t creating the situations where players are receiving so much chaos (faster enemy attack rates, CC spam, enemies that kite, reapplied conditions) that they have to tank and heal because they don’t have enough dodges. PvE isn’t providing situations where they have to split up and hold points against enemies who have a lot of dodges and neat tricks of their own.

The problem with this is that it presupposes….

1. …That the current state of affairs is broken. That is not a given by any stretch of the imagination.

2. …The proposed solution actually improves the game. It certainly changes the game. Making fights more chaotic and adding unavoidable damage that must be soaked is definitely different, but its equally definitely less skill testing and certainly by no means more fun necessarily.

3. …people’s roleplaying desires (I wanna play a pure healer in a game where there is no such thing as a pure healer but still feel like I contribute) should in any way influence game design. By this I mean, it’s great that you want something, but just wanting something isn’t a call to action. Imagine a guy who played ice hockey and was the goalie. Now he plays basketball. There is no goalie in basketball. But he wants to use the goalie skill set and feel like he contributes. How much respect do we have to give to his ideas to revamp the rules of basketball to allow goaltending?

hybrid.5027:

DarkWasp.7291:

PvE is the issue. PvE just isn’t creating the situations where players are receiving so much chaos (faster enemy attack rates, CC spam, enemies that kite, reapplied conditions) that they have to tank and heal because they don’t have enough dodges. PvE isn’t providing situations where they have to split up and hold points against enemies who have a lot of dodges and neat tricks of their own.

The problem with this is that it presupposes….

1. …That the current state of affairs is broken. That is not a given by any stretch of the imagination.

2. …The proposed solution actually improves the game. It certainly changes the game. Making fights more chaotic and adding unavoidable damage that must be soaked is definitely different, but its equally definitely less skill testing and certainly by no means more fun necessarily.

3. …people’s roleplaying desires (I wanna play a pure healer in a game where there is no such thing as a pure healer but still feel like I contribute) should in any way influence game design. By this I mean, it’s great that you want something, but just wanting something isn’t a call to action. Imagine a guy who played ice hockey and was the goalie. Now he plays basketball. There is no goalie in basketball. But he wants to use the goalie skill set and feel like he contributes. How much respect do we have to give to his ideas to revamp the rules of basketball to allow goaltending?

I believe the stigma is that rather than bring a goalie in a game of icehockey, people would rather just stack on another person who can free roam and just have everyone indirectly goal tend while still maintain the option of offensive position. In this analogy, we would like to have using a goaltender as a viable and competitive option to the latter, this would allow people who are good at goal tending be provided the competitive opportunity thus the potential prospects widen, more people have a chance to play because the game then is more attractive to another type of person while people who would rather just stack on more offense without a goalie still being competitive.

Harper.4173:

Also the dredge as enemies come close to your vision of PVE and you know what? I’m going to bet money that the majority of players in this game hate the dredge.

Well, they completely negate one class of active defense. But the Toxic Alliance seem to be a better example of a good mix of PvE abilities. They dodged, used conditions and boons, reflects, revived the downed, I think they even used combos.

There will always be a meta, and it will always be the setup that has the best DPS.

I think the problem here is that the stat allocations on gear in this game allows for a MASSIVE DPS range, with Berserker gear being substantially better than all but 1-2 other sets.

If it was my game balance, I’d have designed gear to only have 2 offensive stat slots and 1 defensive/utility slot, thereby shrinking the range of possible DPS scenarios which would indirectly improve the value of the non-meta gear sets.

You’d still have a meta set, but the gap between it and the worst set would be significantly lessened to the point where a lot of these threads would be irrelevant.

Well there is an element of truth to what Harper is saying.

I’ve always laughed about the way people keep saying they want more challenging content yet we can’t even find CoF P3 groups (which isn’t even that hard.)

So yes, it’s true that people resist challenges, especially in group scenarios. And yes it’s true that in other MMOs players would rather wait 2 hours for a healer than to try 5 secs worth of content without.

My solution still stands, but I’m not disagreeing that ^ ^ ^ is a side effect.

And that is precisely the reason why a drastic zerker nerf is a risk of turning dungeon runs into a rarity.

hybrid.5027:

DarkWasp.7291:

PvE is the issue. PvE just isn’t creating the situations where players are receiving so much chaos (faster enemy attack rates, CC spam, enemies that kite, reapplied conditions) that they have to tank and heal because they don’t have enough dodges. PvE isn’t providing situations where they have to split up and hold points against enemies who have a lot of dodges and neat tricks of their own.

The problem with this is that it presupposes….

1. …That the current state of affairs is broken. That is not a given by any stretch of the imagination.

2. …The proposed solution actually improves the game. It certainly changes the game. Making fights more chaotic and adding unavoidable damage that must be soaked is definitely different, but its equally definitely less skill testing and certainly by no means more fun necessarily.

3. …people’s roleplaying desires (I wanna play a pure healer in a game where there is no such thing as a pure healer but still feel like I contribute) should in any way influence game design. By this I mean, it’s great that you want something, but just wanting something isn’t a call to action. Imagine a guy who played ice hockey and was the goalie. Now he plays basketball. There is no goalie in basketball. But he wants to use the goalie skill set and feel like he contributes. How much respect do we have to give to his ideas to revamp the rules of basketball to allow goaltending?

That last analogy is actually in accurate. The healer in this case would be the catcher and Baseball definitely has those, there are also catchers on each mound on the way to home. So yes there is such a thing as a goaltending process in Baseball, even if it’s not like the rest Baseball is a complete picture of rules to handle all situations.

Unlike the combat in GW2 where you only have half rules applying here. You see GW2 would be the equivalent of having a batter, a pitcher, and several bases with only catchers out in the field way way past the score sign in the bleachers when it comes to trying to keep people from getting to the bases. Basically it’s an extreme, and it’s not a solid system because of it, there are several holes there where we would normally find rules to handle diversity so there’s a complete picture.

tigirius.9014:

hybrid.5027:

Imagine a guy who played ice hockey and was the goalie. Now he plays basketball. There is no goalie in basketball. But he wants to use the goalie skill set and feel like he contributes. How much respect do we have to give to his ideas to revamp the rules of basketball to allow goaltending?

That last analogy is actually in accurate. The healer in this case would be the catcher and Baseball definitely has those, there are also catchers on each mound on the way to home. So yes there is such a thing as a goaltending process in Baseball, even if it’s not like the rest Baseball is a complete picture of rules to handle all situations.

Windsagio.1340:

Sparks The Rescue.5043:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

The core issue is that the “Berzerker Meta” is all about rejecting other gear combinations and styles, that’s why it generates so much annoyance.

It’s more about rejecting people who aren’t part of “the meta”.

Now – the real issue is – how do you get people to stop rejecting other people? You can’t.

It’s every player’s right to play the way they want and with whom they want. If that means rejecting people based on whatever criteria – be it gear, class, AP or even character race there’s nothing people can do about it except complain.

Which isn’t going to help.

Potato potahto, as you say itself, it’s about rejection.

The rejection is why people complain.

They only have a point insofar as the rejection is kind of pointless.

~~~

The weird thing is that you read this as if people are going to force you to run with them. You can always reject people if that’s what gives you jollies, even the most extreme requests in the thread (nerfing zerker and changing gear balance) still won’t force you to play in what you think is a suboptimal way.

Yes but you are missing the point.
It’s not rejecting certain types of gear but certain types of people. The core issue is rejection.

If zerker was changed the people being rejected right now because they’re not meta would still be rejected for being non-meta and not wanted .

You want to fix “the meta issue” and I’m trying to explain why you can’t. People will reject people they don’t like or don’t want to play with. You are not fixing the problem by changing the zerker meta.

I think both of you might be a bit logically confused. Rejection is merely the ;reaction to the problem, not the problem, in itself. By arguing that rejection is somehow the problem, it would logically follow that the natural course players should to take to fix the problem is adopt the mindset that we should all just play together regardless of armor type – which, I think that we can all agree, doesn’t fix the problem. It’s a facade over the problem, it gives us the illusion that we can all play together in a world without vote-kicks, but that doesn’t mean groups that have formed that have players in full berserker gear will not still be more efficient at clearing content than those that do not.

Obviously, the core issue is at how effective berserker is in clearing content over other offensive armor combinations. If conditions could deal relatively close damage per second to a full power, berserker build, then it would be allowed in meta groups – but it can’t. For content that is geared towards speed-clearing, the only thing that can generate the same damage per second close to berserker is assassins, and that’s what’s wrong with the current state of the game.

My understanding is as follows:

The ‘zerker meta’ problem is a social problem not a gameplay problem. Both the people who insist that people who don’t play their way are ‘bads’ and the people who insist on trying to join those groups (for whatever the reason) are parts of the problem.

The exclusiveness of group 1 severely poisoned the dungeon scene and discouraged people in general, but the people in group 2 are just being bullheaded.

I simply can’t grok peoples’ attitudes on the subject, it’s like they’re desperately searching for something to distinguish themselves and scale and/or significance aren’t even part of the calculation, as long as it’s something they can grasp onto.

Very, very well said!

Harper.4173:

This game is not designed to force you to tank and heal. If it did that for high skill level players it would absolutely demolish mid-tier and low-tier players.

Imagine it – content that forced the best of the best in tanky gear and forced someone to go full healer.
Now imagine what it’ll do to the random PUG group. And there you have it. It would murder them.

Why is that bad? Because video games fulfill a power fantasy – where you are the hero and killer of all bad things that wins at everything forever.

If that fantasy is no longer fulfilled players don’t want to play and Anet’s Gem Store revenue goes down.

It’s as simple as 2+2 = 4 really.

With low standard comes low average. Why would anyone bother going the extra distance when there is no extra reward? Not everyone values faster runs.
We are lazy, not incompetent. Raise the bar slowly & steadily and see the community respond. But only if there is reward, of course. This is not a game built to challenge after all.

Saint.5647:

Want to bring your random mix-match paragon into a UWSC? lol….good luck finding a group. Here, bring a random Bonetti’s troll farmer warrior into DoA…again nope. There were specific builds expected to be run by every class and every player. Variation was of course necessary for niche areas or strategies; innovation is always necessary. For the most part however, if you wanted to chase speed or efficiency as a team, you were expected to play your class, your build, and your role.

No one stopped you from going 8 Water Eles into FoW just like no one is stopping you from going 5 P/P Apothecary Thieves into Arah.

Yes there will always be meta and you will have to conform. GW1 had it too. But at least that meta was situational. Different place had different requirements. Over here… One Meta to Rule Them All… Hail Dark Lord Zerker -_-

Actually the meta is different for different things. Its just pug groups dont quite go as far as specifying exact party compositions and specialised builds. You should be grateful for that. :P

Harper.4173:

5-8 minutes matter to some people. They matter to me.

If I wasted 5 minutes on each dungeon – provided I ran 3 per day that’s 15 minutes a day. That’s one hour every 4 days.
Assuming I played GW2 for about every day since release ( let’s say 350 days/year) that means 7 days – 7 entire days of my life wasted by slow dungeon runs.
It is a lot.

Also it’s not just the fact that the runs are slow – but wipes and taking a long time personally kill the experience for me. There’s no enjoyment in doing AC p1 in 30 minutes.

I really dislike these kinds of analyses despite the fact I do not in any way endorse any kind of stat normalization as it will not solve the “berserker meta” problem in any way, shape, or form.

But realistically, what activities would you otherwise be doing in that 15 minute window per day? Presumably, not another dungeon run, and presumably, nothing optionally productive which when performed for 15 minutes has a real impact on your life.

I’ve taken the liberty of using a few examples from my own life:

I mean I can park further away from the store where there are obviously open spots and walk into the store faster than trying to find a parking spot closer. So give or take around a minute there.

Okay, estimate I need to go to only on average one place per day, so a minute.

I could not hit the snooze button every day since I ultimately have to get up every day, 5 minutes later, anyways.

I could not take the elevator and use the stairs since it’s often faster than waiting on it to finish servicing other people. With the amount of floor-moving I do, that’s at least five minutes per day.

I could drive proportionally past the speed limit using back roads to get home slightly faster instead of using the more common ones. We’ll say two minutes each day.

I could take a shower for around three minutes less per day comfortably.

So we’ll take 5/7*365 – 14 = 232 rounded down for one sick day.

Or around 62 hours.

So around two and a half days per year are spent on things pertaining to my typical life which could be totally avoided. That’s quite a bit of time spent doing absolutely nothing. Over the course of say, an expected 40-year working period, I can expect to waste around half of a year – nearly the same as an entire year of college-level education – doing silly little tasks that aren’t really enjoyable or productive.

But the thing is, what else would I fill that time with? All of those blocks are miniscule.
I’m not going to make leaps and bounds in my career/field because I don’t take an elevator. Time is linear, and for our understanding and applications, it’s an absolute measurement, but it’s also relative to the span of a much longer period.

So I ask, what would you do in the meantime, and how productive is that time really going to be? Are there things out there which your time spent on your slight “excess” of play time GW2 is interfering with? If that’s the case, why is GW2 interfering at all with those activities? You shouldn’t be playing GW2 at all during that time if those should be taking precedence, seeing as the game in itself – what playing games are is conceptually – is a meaningless and insignificant waste of time. And if there are none? All that implies is that you’re merely stating you’re simply wasting time during your GW2 time, which in all honesty, if that’s the case, get over yourself, because like I said, this is a game, and it’s designed as all games are, to effectively be a waste of time.

Regarding the berserker meta, no trinity can solve it, because the trinity is in itself a metagame strategy used to efficiently clear content. No normalization can solve it either, unless all diversity is removed, since people like the above quoted will still exist and will still pursue to optimize meaningless amounts of time regardless of context, anyways, still keeping the toxic aspect of it alive.

I’ve said it countless times and I’ll say it again: the problem lies in dungeon design, not in gear/diversity.

spoj.9672:

Actually the meta is different for different things. Its just pug groups dont quite go as far as specifying exact party compositions and specialised builds. You should be grateful for that. :P

And in almost all cases it’s effectively meaningless. Pugs usually aren’t picky because they know it’s a dumb thing to be picky over. Pugs usually break down in this way:

Basic dungeon content where build doesn’t matter
Hard dungeon content where build matters a little bit (no thieves in full Nomads)
Low Fractal where build doesn’t matter
Med-High Fractal where there’s a general assumption that if you’re joining a 30+ fractal you know what you’re doing.

Really high fractals almost never pug, and don’t apply to the conversation.

The smattering of people demanding Zerk or Zerk/Heavy (lol) is fairly even across those categories. You see the most zerk demands in my exeperience in the harder non-fractal dungeons, but not by a vast degree.

I think it’s a problem because (partially due to zerk demands) the LFG for some dungeons is effectively dead. If the only person who has a party up is someone who thinks zerk is important you have to either put up your own group (which people are way too unwilling to do) or conform…. or lie and see if they notice (I don’t suggest the last choice, as a general rule).

Edit: And the focus becomes absurd, it leads to things like ‘guides’ that forget to mention common weapons entirely.

Wouldnt be an issue if people just started their own groups. :P

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

DarkWasp.7291:

PvE is the issue. PvE just isn’t creating the situations where players are receiving so much chaos (faster enemy attack rates, CC spam, enemies that kite, reapplied conditions) that they have to tank and heal because they don’t have enough dodges. PvE isn’t providing situations where they have to split up and hold points against enemies who have a lot of dodges and neat tricks of their own.

Because apart from a few voices on the forum players don’t actually want that.

You know where in this game that happens? Dredge fractal. The universally hated fractal.

Also the dredge as enemies come close to your vision of PVE and you know what? I’m going to bet money that the majority of players in this game hate the dredge.

This game is not designed to force you to tank and heal. If it did that for high skill level players it would absolutely demolish mid-tier and low-tier players.

Imagine it – content that forced the best of the best in tanky gear and forced someone to go full healer.
Now imagine what it’ll do to the random PUG group. And there you have it. It would murder them.

Why is that bad? Because video games fulfill a power fantasy – where you are the hero and killer of all bad things that wins at everything forever.

If that fantasy is no longer fulfilled players don’t want to play and Anet’s Gem Store revenue goes down.

It’s as simple as 2+2 = 4 really.

Anet’s Gem Store sales have been plummeting anyways while the zerker meta is maintained by the community group.

If a faux power fantasy is the main justification of the zerker meta then we can conclude that the zerker meta can never be associated with high player skill under any circumstances.

It’s the justification for the entire game.

Seriously – the whole premise of GW2 is this power fantasy where you are the great hero : “Hero of Shaemoor”, “Commander of the Pact”, “Slayer of Zaithan” – that’s all it is.

Also I don’t get the last part of your post. What were you aiming for again? (probably tired – but if you could explain more).

spoj.9672:

Wouldnt be an issue if people just started their own groups. :P

Agreed! Well half-agreed.

The zerk only thing I feel has a ‘chilling effect’ in the classic sense. It gives people who don’t know better the idea that they can’t do the content or are playing ‘wrong’ and discourages people from using the content.

It’s better now, a lot fewer people are demanding zerk, but the damage is largely done.

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

Let me get this straight.
You don’t fight for fun?

I fight for the loot. The loot is my fun. Not the fight itself.
I’ve done the fight itself so many times I can’t really call it engaging or fun anymore. I’ve just done it too many times.

I do it for the loot.

That sounds like an issue to be resolved. Why not make a constructive thread about it? It feels like wasted time and effort to spend posts on a thread you don’t like or have said your peace on.

But to me, the main solution I see from those that share your perspective is to just make more tough content. A decent suggestion but it had its flaws just like the idea behind the OP. Still can’t hurt to put theory behind it.

Like I said – more tough content that forces certain ways of playing is not a good solution in my opinion.

I keep posting because I’ve been with this game since early launch ( 3 days early access for preorders). I know it well.

I’ve seen threads like these come and go and they are always filled with uninformed people that demand this or that without bothering to think or inform themselves on the topics of how GW 2 was designed, what the meta is, why we have metas and why players use metas.

perilisk.1874:

Harper.4173:

Also the dredge as enemies come close to your vision of PVE and you know what? I’m going to bet money that the majority of players in this game hate the dredge.

Well, they completely negate one class of active defense. But the Toxic Alliance seem to be a better example of a good mix of PvE abilities. They dodged, used conditions and boons, reflects, revived the downed, I think they even used combos.

And we all remember how well liked they were. And how the Tower of Nightmares became the tower of death and tears as people struggled endlessly towards the top.

MikeyGrey.2496:

Harper.4173:

This game is not designed to force you to tank and heal. If it did that for high skill level players it would absolutely demolish mid-tier and low-tier players.

Imagine it – content that forced the best of the best in tanky gear and forced someone to go full healer.
Now imagine what it’ll do to the random PUG group. And there you have it. It would murder them.

Why is that bad? Because video games fulfill a power fantasy – where you are the hero and killer of all bad things that wins at everything forever.

If that fantasy is no longer fulfilled players don’t want to play and Anet’s Gem Store revenue goes down.

It’s as simple as 2+2 = 4 really.

With low standard comes low average. Why would anyone bother going the extra distance when there is no extra reward? Not everyone values faster runs.
We are lazy, not incompetent. Raise the bar slowly & steadily and see the community respond. But only if there is reward, of course. This is not a game built to challenge after all.

Saint.5647:

Want to bring your random mix-match paragon into a UWSC? lol….good luck finding a group. Here, bring a random Bonetti’s troll farmer warrior into DoA…again nope. There were specific builds expected to be run by every class and every player. Variation was of course necessary for niche areas or strategies; innovation is always necessary. For the most part however, if you wanted to chase speed or efficiency as a team, you were expected to play your class, your build, and your role.

No one stopped you from going 8 Water Eles into FoW just like no one is stopping you from going 5 P/P Apothecary Thieves into Arah.

Yes there will always be meta and you will have to conform. GW1 had it too. But at least that meta was situational. Different place had different requirements. Over here… One Meta to Rule Them All… Hail Dark Lord Zerker -_-

There is reward.

Dodge better → don’t die → deal damage → faster run → more rewards per playtime.

The bar might be raised but there are certain caps people can’t and won’t go over :

-reflex caps
-time investment caps
-understanding caps
-experience caps

Some of these require investment from the player – and a large number of GW2’s population is not going to invest time into that because they either don’t care about it or don’t have that time on hand.

DeceiverX.8361:

But realistically, what activities would you otherwise be doing in that 15 minute window per day? Presumably, not another dungeon run, and presumably, nothing optionally productive which when performed for 15 minutes has a real impact on your life.

You make a lot of presumptions. Maybe I’d like to simply do something productive.
Maybe I want to watch a video on youtube. Maybe I want to read a wiki article. Or simply browse some social media.

The bottom line is those are my 15 minutes and I’d rather not waste them regardless of how unimportant they seem to you.

So I ask, what would you do in the meantime, and how productive is that time really going to be?

It doesn’t have to be productive. It can be spent doing an enjoyable experience.
Or i can do something productive – read a scientific article to get more up to date with a field of interest.

Or I can boil an egg and eat it. I can pretty much think of countless things I’d rather do than wait for pugs to get their act together.

You shouldn’t be playing GW2 at all during that time if those should be taking precedence, seeing as the game in itself – what playing games are is conceptually – is a meaningless and insignificant waste of time. And if there are none? All that implies is that you’re merely stating you’re simply wasting time during your GW2 time, which in all honesty, if that’s the case, get over yourself, because like I said, this is a game, and it’s designed as all games are, to effectively be a waste of time.

My GW2 is not wasted since I use it as a mechanism to unwind and dissolve psychological stress that I accumulate during other activities.
It’s also a positive experience that has been nicely connected with the reward centers in my brain. In a sense I’m using it to reward myself with a nice injection of neurotransmitters that give me an overall state of achievement, joy or whatever else positive adjective you’d like.

It’s fast, convenient, I can turn it on at any time and I can pretty much stop it at any time. It’s very convenient ( as most games are) because you can literally control your brain’s internal chemistry on the fly if you so desire and work towards it.

Again – let me make myself clear – it is not wasted time since it’s time I’m spending in order to relax, burn stress and make sure I can perform other activities at 100%.

If you want to understand more about what I’m trying to explain feel free to whisper me.

I firmly believe the crux of this issue comes from the rewards mentality, which is in part due to the lack of a unique game play environment. People are so focused on loot, that everything otherwise is either left behind or optimized & utilized to get to that reward in the quickest way possible.

If only Anet had game play that was more complex, meaningful and exciting. Then the reward aspect would be shifted to the combat itself; instead of trying to minimize combat time for shinies. >_>

I know this isn’t the greatest example (not even the same genre), but consider Call of Duty. People arn’t playin’ that for gold. They’re playing it because it’s fun shooting stuff. Apply that same concept to the combat of GW2 and people might not be so strict with meta builds, although you’d still have to consider expanding things via attributes and skills etc.

Fun and engaging combat is desperately needed.

Goes into the same issue, you can’t fix players.

if they made content harder, where they needed a Balanced team not 100% full zerk teams (mid to high lvl dungeons) and increased the reward (add champ chests as a reward too+ the gold) at the end of each dungeon , full zerk runs would be less as its harder but its still worth doing because of said reward , will attract more people to dungeons, more challenges, maybe more fun (as these new people won’t skip content)

runs will be slower but equal the same reward to the amount of time imputted two runs at 7-10mins for 2g (current dungeon meta )

or one run at 15-25mins for 2g+champ chest.

Windsagio.1340:

Goes into the same issue, you can’t fix players.

You can’t fix players but players can fix themselves. Kick them enough times and they might actually considering that…

So personally I don’t think zerker should be nerfed, the concept is that it (or assassins) is the highest DPS stat combo, the underlying issue is that all the other stats are vastly inferior to the zerker or assassins stats.
My thought is to add a breakpoint in stats that changes your skills. For example if you have 1.5k+ healing power your heal skill becomes aoe and if it was already aoe the size gets bigger. Or if you have 2k+ toughness you gain a 10% chance to negate critical hits every 500 vit gives you a 5% chance to end a condition early. I would feel motivated to try different gear if there was a reason. But frankly I feel just as squishy with full soldiers or clerics as zerker, except my DPS is kitten. I think MMO trinity should exist, but each class should be able to choose from suppot, DPS, or healing roles.
Events would have to be changed to account for granting boons, heals revives etc as credit instead of DPS (another reason all LS players want zerker so they can get gold credit for events)

I run a support Gaurdian with +healing stuff. Never had a problem in any kind of group content. I just avoid “zerk only” or tell them up-front in not zerk if I happen to need that instance run or whatever. People laugh, but making sure everybody is alive and hitting that heal just in time can really do the trick in some encounters.
And it’s not like I’m not holding my own dealing damage.

Anyway, as long as we don’t have dedicated / semi-dedicated healer/tank/dps/cc/range/buff roles it’s not gonna change. Huge amounts of dps will get things done faster, and people who wants to clear an instance very very very fast take only zerk on their team. Just don’t join these and everybody will be happy.

So, all of you complaining “no tank” and “no healer” and no diversity." What stops you? Why don’t you use Wooden Spuds 21k heal in 15 seconds Ele build? Why not use his tanky warrior build or any number of bunker builds? They’re viable. You could even combine them and get three DPS for a trinity party.

The diversity is there in GW2. It may not be the one clear best approach, but it’s there — just like diversity exists in trinity games — except in the meta, where there’s one build per class per role that’s accepted. Even within the GW2 meta, there’s room for more than one build per profession, which is more than I can say of traditional MMO meta strategies.

1) How much of gold and t7 daily crafting do 1 character to replace another attribute set of red gear weapons and armor.

2) Refer to sinister, how much of extra time do player need to collect a set of ascended receipts needed?

3) Try to write down what party members you want in LFG and dont join the zerkers if you dont want it.

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Wouldnt be an issue if people just started their own groups. :P

Agreed! Well half-agreed.

The zerk only thing I feel has a ‘chilling effect’ in the classic sense. It gives people who don’t know better the idea that they can’t do the content or are playing ‘wrong’ and discourages people from using the content.

It’s better now, a lot fewer people are demanding zerk, but the damage is largely done.

Only if we assume all players who don’t know any better are mindless sheep. I don’t think this is the case. Ignorance in a subject can allude to but does not confirm general stupidity or lack of desire to educate one’s self.

In short, people have the ability to question and to learn. When confronted with zerk only groups, a newer player should question why this is the case. I think we owe it to them, as the existing community, to give a fair assessment and argument as to why the game meta currently stands as it is.

I think we may agree to disagree on the dissemination of information as a disservice or “damage done.” The interpretation is entirely up to the beholder, as it were. In that regard I think the experienced PvE community has done a lot to provide that information to the general GW2 community.

My thought is to add a breakpoint in stats that changes your skills. For example if you have 1.5k+ healing power your heal skill becomes aoe and if it was already aoe the size gets bigger. Or if you have 2k+ toughness you gain a 10% chance to negate critical hits every 500 vit gives you a 5% chance to end a condition early. I would feel motivated to try different gear if there was a reason. But frankly I feel just as squishy with full soldiers or clerics as zerker, except my DPS is kitten. I think MMO trinity should exist, but each class should be able to choose from suppot, DPS, or healing roles.

Boosting passive mitigation = bad idea. It’s already fairly terrible – they should do the exact opposite. They should revamp weapon skills to allow for more blinds/aegis/evades etc. They should make sure the mobs can’t turn themselves around instantly. They should make sure the mobs are slow attackers.

You want to do everything to enhance playing the right way – and do everything you can to bury WoW style – passive spreadsheet oriented gaming. This is why people like shooters – its about the action – not about the grinding to achieve gear superiority or the 5 minutes you spend ‘planning’ your build.

All boosting the passive stats does is allow players to ignore in game mechanics. The zerker elitists are a force for good encouraging the players to play the way the game was meant to be played. Arenanet WANTS you to learn to dodge the wind walls. They WANT you to learn to hit aegis on your guardian right before Lupicus kicks the rogue. What they DON’T want for you is to face tank and roll kitten.

They make this exceedingly clear. Look at the wicked Rodeo and dodgy achievements from the living story. They want you to learn how to play the right way. How friggin boring would those be if you just face-rolled it.

There is ZERO wrong with the zerker meta. The really problem is the rest of the combat system in combination with encounter design. Fields and Boons and utilities only cover a small area and thus it pays off to stack. You stack together you can leverage fields/boons/reflects for extra damage/utility for the entire party.

Arenanet didn’t quite think that stuff through in PvE. It’s pretty obvious giving people powerful boons, fields and reflects is going to make people want to stack. Zerker stuff in PvE is just the intelligent way to deal with content.

They need to find a way to prevent stacking that does not ruin player synergy in PvE. They have not done this. Hate all you want but stacking might/stealth/timing reflects/using blinds etc takes a lot more teamwork they letting guys gear up and face tank hard stuff down.

Hume.2876:

Boosting passive mitigation = bad idea. It’s already fairly terrible – they should do the exact opposite. They should revamp weapon skills to allow for more blinds/aegis/evades etc. They should make sure the mobs can’t turn themselves around instantly. They should make sure the mobs are slow attackers.

You want to do everything to enhance playing the right way – and do everything you can to bury WoW style – passive spreadsheet oriented gaming. This is why people like shooters – its about the action – not about the grinding to achieve gear superiority or the 5 minutes you spend ‘planning’ your build.

All boosting the passive stats does is allow players to ignore in game mechanics. The zerker elitists are a force for good encouraging the players to play the way the game was meant to be played. Arenanet WANTS you to learn to dodge the wind walls. They WANT you to learn to hit aegis on your guardian right before Lupicus kicks the rogue. What they DON’T want for you is to face tank and roll kitten.

They make this exceedingly clear. Look at the wicked Rodeo and dodgy achievements from the living story. They want you to learn how to play the right way. How friggin boring would those be if you just face-rolled it.

There is ZERO wrong with the zerker meta. The really problem is the rest of the combat system in combination with encounter design. Fields and Boons and utilities only cover a small area and thus it pays off to stack. You stack together you can leverage fields/boons/reflects for extra damage/utility for the entire party.

Arenanet didn’t quite think that stuff through in PvE. It’s pretty obvious giving people powerful boons, fields and reflects is going to make people want to stack. Zerker stuff in PvE is just the intelligent way to deal with content.

They need to find a way to prevent stacking that does not ruin player synergy in PvE. They have not done this. Hate all you want but stacking might/stealth/timing reflects/using blinds etc takes a lot more teamwork they letting guys gear up and face tank hard stuff down.

There’s plenty wrong with zerk meta… and with active defense measures in general. passive and active defense should scale according to your build. zerk aegis should negate significantly less damage than knights; zerk retaliation should hit harder than nomad; giver’s (weapon)/sinister blind should last longer and block greater number of attacks/mitigate damage than assassin. Combat can have so many more dimensions by tying all effects to attributes i.e. blind from sinister converts greater # hits to glancing/missed blows with reduced duration or from giver to stay on mobs longer but less converted blows. Have attribute types specialize in certain boon/condition type i.e. tie vitality to endurance and toughness to aegis and zerk to retaliation & so on.

there should be greater risk and greater reward for choosing to max a specific attribute: zerk should hit harder but heal for nearly nothing… glass cannon needs to be actual glass. bunker should have lower offense with way higher passive defense. Should you wish to avoid such roles as dps, tank, heal, etc then you should be required to allot your trait points overall accordingly across all areas

MikeyGrey.2496:

Hume.2876:

Boosting passive mitigation = bad idea. It’s already fairly terrible – they should do the exact opposite. They should revamp weapon skills to allow for more blinds/aegis/evades etc. They should make sure the mobs can’t turn themselves around instantly. They should make sure the mobs are slow attackers.

You want to do everything to enhance playing the right way – and do everything you can to bury WoW style – passive spreadsheet oriented gaming. This is why people like shooters – its about the action – not about the grinding to achieve gear superiority or the 5 minutes you spend ‘planning’ your build.

All boosting the passive stats does is allow players to ignore in game mechanics. The zerker elitists are a force for good encouraging the players to play the way the game was meant to be played. Arenanet WANTS you to learn to dodge the wind walls. They WANT you to learn to hit aegis on your guardian right before Lupicus kicks the rogue. What they DON’T want for you is to face tank and roll kitten.

They make this exceedingly clear. Look at the wicked Rodeo and dodgy achievements from the living story. They want you to learn how to play the right way. How friggin boring would those be if you just face-rolled it.

There is ZERO wrong with the zerker meta. The really problem is the rest of the combat system in combination with encounter design. Fields and Boons and utilities only cover a small area and thus it pays off to stack. You stack together you can leverage fields/boons/reflects for extra damage/utility for the entire party.

Arenanet didn’t quite think that stuff through in PvE. It’s pretty obvious giving people powerful boons, fields and reflects is going to make people want to stack. Zerker stuff in PvE is just the intelligent way to deal with content.

They need to find a way to prevent stacking that does not ruin player synergy in PvE. They have not done this. Hate all you want but stacking might/stealth/timing reflects/using blinds etc takes a lot more teamwork they letting guys gear up and face tank hard stuff down.

There’s plenty wrong with zerk meta… and with active defense measures in general. passive and active defense should scale according to your build. zerk aegis should negate significantly less damage than knights; zerk retaliation should hit harder than nomad; giver’s (weapon)/sinister blind should last longer and block greater number of attacks/mitigate damage than assassin. Combat can have so many more dimensions by tying all effects to attributes i.e. blind from sinister converts greater # hits to glancing/missed blows with reduced duration or from giver to stay on mobs longer but less converted blows. Have attribute types specialize in certain boon/condition type i.e. tie vitality to endurance and toughness to aegis and zerk to retaliation & so on.

there should be greater risk and greater reward for choosing to max a specific attribute: zerk should hit harder but heal for nearly nothing… glass cannon needs to be actual glass. bunker should have lower offense with way higher passive defense. Should you wish to avoid such roles as dps, tank, heal, etc then you should be required to allot your trait points overall accordingly across all areas

zerk is already a high risk high reward build, as someone already posted a video of the lupicus solo where he would facetank everything with his tank warrior build, something a zerk can never achieve.

The suggestion you made would simply make those brainless build, even more brainless and also break pvp and wvw at the sametime. In fact some of the most low skill required build in those modes are the tanky specs, its a blessing that those cancers aren’t in pve as well.

Incoming: 3/3/3/3/2 Celestial meta with a mishmash of runes/sigils/utilities…

The game was not intended to be anything like that. If it was, the would have missed the mark by a mile and, surely, would have completely overhauled the entire system before two years. You described trinity roles/games perfectly.

Stats (passive) affecting the quality/potency of ACTIVE defense mechanics is a silly notion. Why in the world would someone who’s already stacked tons of personal, passive damage mitigation stats need/deserve access to more effective active defenses as well? (Remember, there are no ‘tanks’ with an aggro system to support them.) This idea would only do one of two things a) force people into trinity roles or b)encourage completely homogeneous group/build comps. (Maybe a slight variation in between.)

How would this effect the balance of other game modes, ie. PvP/WvW? It would be an absolute mess to change to a system like this outside of very organized groups.

What is the actual point to this thread? What is the end goal? How do you guys hope to achieve this goal? What are the problems with the current system that are out of your power to control/change about your gaming experiences? How does this ‘problem’ personally effect your experience? Are there any solutions outside of radically changing the foundations of the game that could solve this, ie. Community awareness, mentor ships, tutorials, Dev explanations, etc)?

IndigoSundown.5419:

So, all of you complaining “no tank” and “no healer” and no diversity." What stops you? Why don’t you use Wooden Spuds 21k heal in 15 seconds Ele build? Why not use his tanky warrior build or any number of bunker builds? They’re viable. You could even combine them and get three DPS for a trinity party.

The diversity is there in GW2. It may not be the one clear best approach, but it’s there — just like diversity exists in trinity games — except in the meta, where there’s one build per class per role that’s accepted. Even within the GW2 meta, there’s room for more than one build per profession, which is more than I can say of traditional MMO meta strategies.

Because people want content that requires different builds? Trinity is the meta in games like WoW or FF14 because you absolutely need to have tanks and healers along with your dps or you will fail 100% of the time.

It’s not a case of “oh well lets bring this because we’ll beat the raid the fastest” it’s a case of “oh well lets bring this because we don’t like to wipe over and over and over…”
Any diversity in other MMO’s comes in the form of multiple classes filling a single role. The best games balance well enough that they either perform equally in different ways or bring different benefits to the team. Most just end up failing at balance and you end up with the optimal party comp and the rest fall by the wayside.

People want to bring tanks and healers and feel like they are actually helping, not gimping their team for the sake of “diversity”.

Blackmoon.6837:

I firmly believe the crux of this issue comes from the rewards mentality, which is in part due to the lack of a unique game play environment. People are so focused on loot, that everything otherwise is either left behind or optimized & utilized to get to that reward in the quickest way possible.

If only Anet had game play that was more complex, meaningful and exciting. Then the reward aspect would be shifted to the combat itself; instead of trying to minimize combat time for shinies.

I agree with you here. Its horrible, IMO, that we’re so hyper-focused on the greatest rewards in the quickest way possible – over anything else. Don’t get me wrong… I love looting too. But I would much prefer a game that was challenging and fun, one that I felt a fair amount of pride by my growing bank account in game. But I don’t here.

“Yay. More farming.”
“Okay. Got my daily dungeons in.”
“Woot. Another WBT down.”

I mean what is the point if there isn’t at least a little bit of pride in our efforts? There is nothing to be proud of with many of the cheesy combat mechanics we take advantage of on a regular basis.

My problem with Berserker gear is not the LFG system. I don’t use it or zerker gear, myself, but I have no trouble grouping with friends and most of them have it. The problem is that a Berserker player, especially one traited towards DPS, has equal access to the rest of the new trinity as those without zerk gear do. So it makes everything else subpar in comparison, with few exceptions.

I don’t know if I’m explaining my feelings on the matter as well as I should….

Tman.6349:

Incoming: 3/3/3/3/2 Celestial meta with a mishmash of runes/sigils/utilities…

The game was not intended to be anything like that. If it was, the would have missed the mark by a mile and, surely, would have completely overhauled the entire system before two years. You described trinity roles/games perfectly.

Stats (passive) affecting the quality/potency of ACTIVE defense mechanics is a silly notion. Why in the world would someone who’s already stacked tons of personal, passive damage mitigation stats need/deserve access to more effective active defenses as well? (Remember, there are no ‘tanks’ with an aggro system to support them.) This idea would only do one of two things a) force people into trinity roles or b)encourage completely homogeneous group/build comps. (Maybe a slight variation in between.)

How would this effect the balance of other game modes, ie. PvP/WvW? It would be an absolute mess to change to a system like this outside of very organized groups.

What I described is true freedom to do anything… including trinity. Go solo by occupying no role/party with similar, independently built toons or pick one role and party up to balance your build. There will always be a meta… the goal is to not have the same meta for everything &/or multiple metas for the same thing: to have choice and efficiency together.

passive defenses don’t mean anything when actives overrule combat; what use is toughness when aegis/dodge/blind/invul mitigate damage almost perfectly? That is why we are stuck with zerk because there is no need for passive. This is why we have not just homogenous but near identical build setups. Variety is what we are missing here. PvP would honestly become a bit more fun: trinity vs celestial x3. And if balance cannot be achieved then simply separate pve from pvp. Variation is key. Frankly, it would be a blast trying to see how high in offense you can go without dying…

I don’t care for trinity one way or another; just for the need to pick different build setup… for something other than all out offense to make a significant difference one way or another. And those not wanting multiple armor sets… Build isn’t all about gear.

Saint.5647:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Wouldnt be an issue if people just started their own groups. :P

Agreed! Well half-agreed.

The zerk only thing I feel has a ‘chilling effect’ in the classic sense. It gives people who don’t know better the idea that they can’t do the content or are playing ‘wrong’ and discourages people from using the content.

It’s better now, a lot fewer people are demanding zerk, but the damage is largely done.

Only if we assume all players who don’t know any better are mindless sheep. I don’t think this is the case. Ignorance in a subject can allude to but does not confirm general stupidity or lack of desire to educate one’s self.

In short, people have the ability to question and to learn. When confronted with zerk only groups, a newer player should question why this is the case. I think we owe it to them, as the existing community, to give a fair assessment and argument as to why the game meta currently stands as it is.

I think we may agree to disagree on the dissemination of information as a disservice or “damage done.” The interpretation is entirely up to the beholder, as it were. In that regard I think the experienced PvE community has done a lot to provide that information to the general GW2 community.

I think that most zerk meta players are pretty much working off of what they were told was necessary, so take that as you will.

“Weasel out fix” : make a set of zerker armor and trinkets, keep that in your inventory and link it to your pick up team when they gear check. Keep on rolling with your own stuff. They’ll never know the difference and one day you might even find a use for the zerker stuff.

Lydell.8713:

“Weasel out fix” : make a set of zerker armor and trinkets, keep that in your inventory and link it to your pick up team when they gear check. Keep on rolling with your own stuff. They’ll never know the difference and one day you might even find a use for the zerker stuff.

the people who doesn’t know the dungeon encounter well enough won’t tell the difference. If i post a zerk only group and i see you facetank a rocket turret as a thief and not be downed instantly in cm, i will know you aren’t in zerk and boot you right at the final boss for wasting our time.

Lydell.8713:

“Weasel out fix” : make a set of zerker armor and trinkets, keep that in your inventory and link it to your pick up team when they gear check. Keep on rolling with your own stuff. They’ll never know the difference and one day you might even find a use for the zerker stuff.

The moment you take damage while wearing tanky gear is the moment you get outed as a liar.

I guess expecting puggies to have some modicum of decency is too much. This, gentlemen, is why we can’t have nice things.

Lifestealer.4910:

Lydell.8713:

“Weasel out fix” : make a set of zerker armor and trinkets, keep that in your inventory and link it to your pick up team when they gear check. Keep on rolling with your own stuff. They’ll never know the difference and one day you might even find a use for the zerker stuff.

the people who doesn’t know the dungeon encounter well enough won’t tell the difference. If i post a zerk only group and i see you facetank a rocket turret as a thief and not be downed instantly in cm, i will know you aren’t in zerk and boot you right at the final boss for wasting our time.

If you see him facetank the turret I’d hope you’d want to get rid of him either way. This is what I’m saying :p

Edit:
It makes me think of a thief I was doing the Mai Fractal with. Considering how quickly he went down as he frotted her, I totally believe he was in zerker. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a weasted slot though.

Substance E.4852:

IndigoSundown.5419:

So, all of you complaining “no tank” and “no healer” and no diversity." What stops you? Why don’t you use Wooden Spuds 21k heal in 15 seconds Ele build? Why not use his tanky warrior build or any number of bunker builds? They’re viable. You could even combine them and get three DPS for a trinity party.

The diversity is there in GW2. It may not be the one clear best approach, but it’s there — just like diversity exists in trinity games — except in the meta, where there’s one build per class per role that’s accepted. Even within the GW2 meta, there’s room for more than one build per profession, which is more than I can say of traditional MMO meta strategies.

Because people want content that requires different builds? Trinity is the meta in games like WoW or FF14 because you absolutely need to have tanks and healers along with your dps or you will fail 100% of the time.

It’s not a case of “oh well lets bring this because we’ll beat the raid the fastest” it’s a case of “oh well lets bring this because we don’t like to wipe over and over and over…”
Any diversity in other MMO’s comes in the form of multiple classes filling a single role. The best games balance well enough that they either perform equally in different ways or bring different benefits to the team. Most just end up failing at balance and you end up with the optimal party comp and the rest fall by the wayside.

People want to bring tanks and healers and feel like they are actually helping, not gimping their team for the sake of “diversity”.

It’s fine that they feel that way. That’s what they’re used to. (Funny they scream “we need diversity”, yet want to completely hijack the ‘same old roles’ they were playing in other games though. O.o) The problem is, GW2 doesn’t cater to those things at all. There is no tank with an aggro system to compliment them and everyone has their own heals and damage mitigation. So, why would they be ‘helping’ in this game design? They might in like minded groups but Anet isn’t going to pander to this crowd. That’d be like me saying, "I want to roleplay a thief who lost his arm in a war and can only wield an offhand and still feel like I’m helping. Nonsense right? Because it’s immediately obvious that I’m not playing to my full potential or for the overall benefit of others. So how is an Ele spamming water fields, while their group has been using active defenses and not taking any damage anyway, OK in this mindset? It isn’t. It’s selfish drivel that forces other people to play in a way that they would rather not. This is the exact same accusation that’s coming from the other side of the fence. The difference is, one of the stubborn sides is willing to accept this and looks for others like them to play content. The other stubborn side insist that they should invoke the almighty ‘I want’ and have their play style forced on others. You seeing the problem yet?

The stats are ok. The problem is the super easy content. The majority of the dungeons are from game release and the bosses suffered few mechanic changes. The base active defense without invest anything on it (dodge) is too strong for the current bosses. We need +bosses with retaliation and auras, more pulsing aoes, more side objectives.

Windsagio.1340:

Lifestealer.4910:

Lydell.8713:

“Weasel out fix” : make a set of zerker armor and trinkets, keep that in your inventory and link it to your pick up team when they gear check. Keep on rolling with your own stuff. They’ll never know the difference and one day you might even find a use for the zerker stuff.

the people who doesn’t know the dungeon encounter well enough won’t tell the difference. If i post a zerk only group and i see you facetank a rocket turret as a thief and not be downed instantly in cm, i will know you aren’t in zerk and boot you right at the final boss for wasting our time.

If you see him facetank the turret I’d hope you’d want to get rid of him either way. This is what I’m saying :p

Edit:
It makes me think of a thief I was doing the Mai Fractal with. Considering how quickly he went down as he frotted her, I totally believe he was in zerker. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a weasted slot though.

Its difficult to filter out players who are going to be a liability until you are actually doing the encounter. Still, I would rather prefer a useless zerker player than a useless “insert random build” player because at least it tells me he wants to contribute as much as he can to the party even if he does not have the experience or whatever.

I don’t hate people who use other builds other than zerk, there is actually a time and a place for everything that is not zerk. a cleric guardian or cele ele can be extremely helpful in high level fractals. What i dislike is people who wants to run any sort of build for any encounter without actually thinking whether the build is any good for said encounters. They are are usually the type of people that won’t bother adapting either via traits or weapons. That goes for alot of zerker players as well but its even more obvious with the “play how i want” crowd. Can’t expect too much from pugs tho so to ensure that the runs aren’t too disastrous when i do want to pug (which is rarely now) its good to set a simple standard of zerk at least.