This "Meta" has to end
GW2 dungeon bosses need hard enrage timers e.g., 2 minutes on Lupi for a group of 5 and up to 8-10 for a soloer.
[ZDs]
So, all of you complaining “no tank” and “no healer” and no diversity." What stops you? Why don’t you use Wooden Spuds 21k heal in 15 seconds Ele build? Why not use his tanky warrior build or any number of bunker builds? They’re viable. You could even combine them and get three DPS for a trinity party.
The diversity is there in GW2. It may not be the one clear best approach, but it’s there — just like diversity exists in trinity games — except in the meta, where there’s one build per class per role that’s accepted. Even within the GW2 meta, there’s room for more than one build per profession, which is more than I can say of traditional MMO meta strategies.
Because people want content that requires different builds? Trinity is the meta in games like WoW or FF14 because you absolutely need to have tanks and healers along with your dps or you will fail 100% of the time.
There is content that requires different builds. I rarely use the same build for every dungeon encounter. No, you don’t mean build, you mean different gear.
It’s not a case of “oh well lets bring this because we’ll beat the raid the fastest” it’s a case of “oh well lets bring this because we don’t like to wipe over and over and over…”
Any diversity in other MMO’s comes in the form of multiple classes filling a single role. The best games balance well enough that they either perform equally in different ways or bring different benefits to the team. Most just end up failing at balance and you end up with the optimal party comp and the rest fall by the wayside.It’s enormously difficult to make classes/professions different while also making them equally effective. That’s why they fail.
People want to bring tanks and healers and feel like they are actually helping, not gimping their team for the sake of “diversity”.
Thing is, a tank can hold aggro some if the DPS ranges while the tank melees. A healer can help a group — I see it all the time in anything goes groups. People can help a team with those builds, assuming it’s a team that wants them. Since that isn’t enough for them, they either:
- want every team to want tank and/or healer setups. How do you design that without making those roles required? You might be able to design a specific encounter with something like holding a point, as in sPvP, while the rest of the team does something else. But you can’t make every encounter like that. To make those builds welcome in efficiency groups across the range of encounters, you’d need to institute the trinity.
- want hybrid gear setups to do damage comparable to glass gear setups. In other MMO’s you can build a hybrid defense/offense character if you want. They don’t do as much damage as the pure glass characters, for a reason.
I see a lot of comments about perfectly balances builds/stats/etc implemented in game to end the ‘meta’ idea. I don’t think there is such a thing.
The only perfect balance I believe the OP to be after is a community mentality balance, where all builds are accepted. Some may be better at some things, but that’s the way of life really.
Veni, Vidi, Victa.
Quidquid Latine Dictum Sit, Altum Videtur
Quidquid Latine Dictum Sit, Altum Videtur
Zerk 4 life!
The answer is simple- learn to play it (GW2) and your class well.
You will find that once you have mastered your class, each foes type of attack and your active defenses the need for passive defenses and other armor sets is mitigated in all PvE.
(including Silverwastes, Cursed Shore, DryTop, dungeons and FoTM ).
[MYTH] The Mythical Dragons -PvX http://mythdragons.enjin.com
You’re using bad players as an example for why their build/setup is bad. Experienced dungeon guilds will complete all these encounters without anyone requiring ressurection. They will kill most bosses on the spawn and use active defenses to stay alive.
Yeah.
Organized Guild rushes.
But problem is with random people. They claim to be experienced and all, and turns out in the middle of some dungeon’s path, that they’re like first timers.
Honestly, I did many dungeon runs with people who were total first timers – ’cause I wanted 1st timers.
You know what was the best thing about it?
They asked what to do and what to expect.
Even if they were bunch of germans or frenchies. As long as one of them understood english, he could translate. And voila. Was slower than experienced group, but at least it was smooth.
Because they asked.
- I got into an AC run with two guardians a thief and a warrior as I was on elementalist.
TA Marona – 3 Guardians and 0 Reflect Shield.
Happened few more times with different groups.You can’t reflect or block malrona anymore.
but could before.
As I’m not saying dodging it is something difficult, it was possible to reflect them and not allow her to shoot at party.
Did I ever tell you, the definition, of Insanity?
snip
I don’t see how this is relevant to this discussion. Bad or inexperienced players will be just that, regardless of their choice of gear/traits and skills. Some setups will cover up their mistakes, while strictly following the “Zerk Meta” might make these players a liability. It’s still a problem of individual player skill and the best advice for these people would be to either make an informed decision about which gear is best for them or to actively work on improving themselves. Some of the more thorough class guides actually mention the squishiness and high risk/high reward nature of “Zerk Meta” builds.
So even though some of your points are valid, I still do not see how exactly this is important as to the matter at hand.
I firmly believe the crux of this issue comes from the rewards mentality, which is in part due to the lack of a unique game play environment. People are so focused on loot, that everything otherwise is either left behind or optimized & utilized to get to that reward in the quickest way possible.
If only Anet had game play that was more complex, meaningful and exciting. Then the reward aspect would be shifted to the combat itself; instead of trying to minimize combat time for shinies. >_>
I know this isn’t the greatest example (not even the same genre), but consider Call of Duty. People arn’t playin’ that for gold. They’re playing it because it’s fun shooting stuff. Apply that same concept to the combat of GW2 and people might not be so strict with meta builds, although you’d still have to consider expanding things via attributes and skills etc.
Fun and engaging combat is desperately needed.
This is a thing with all MMOs – players consume content and grow weary of it.
The problem is the game hasn’t had any new meaningful group content in a long time. It’s perfectly normal that people don’t play for the content anymore. It’s been done hundreds of times already in the last 2+ years.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
I firmly believe the crux of this issue comes from the rewards mentality, which is in part due to the lack of a unique game play environment. People are so focused on loot, that everything otherwise is either left behind or optimized & utilized to get to that reward in the quickest way possible.
If only Anet had game play that was more complex, meaningful and exciting. Then the reward aspect would be shifted to the combat itself; instead of trying to minimize combat time for shinies. >_>
I know this isn’t the greatest example (not even the same genre), but consider Call of Duty. People arn’t playin’ that for gold. They’re playing it because it’s fun shooting stuff. Apply that same concept to the combat of GW2 and people might not be so strict with meta builds, although you’d still have to consider expanding things via attributes and skills etc.
Fun and engaging combat is desperately needed.
MMOs have always been about character development first, combat second, imo. It’s why the game play is often rigid and unnatural. A large part of said character development requires loot – items for cosmetics, power and fun little diversions. The ‘rewards mentality’ isn’t a problem, it is a reasonable expectation in an RPG. It’s the lack of rewards that’s made the game what it is today.
Call of Duty isn’t an apt comparison at all.
So, all of you complaining “no tank” and “no healer” and no diversity." What stops you? Why don’t you use Wooden Spuds 21k heal in 15 seconds Ele build? Why not use his tanky warrior build or any number of bunker builds? They’re viable. You could even combine them and get three DPS for a trinity party.
The diversity is there in GW2. It may not be the one clear best approach, but it’s there — just like diversity exists in trinity games — except in the meta, where there’s one build per class per role that’s accepted. Even within the GW2 meta, there’s room for more than one build per profession, which is more than I can say of traditional MMO meta strategies.
^ this.
even in other “traditional” mmo games you have a “meta” build for each class. you think WoW tanks don’t have a particular talent tree with specific skills they must choose in order to get into a group? even there you have to be an X/Y/Z tank or healer or whatever it is. in every outcome, no matter what game it is, there will be a meta. you can go with it or not. in some games that may mean you don’t get to play group content ever.
you can play as you please, just like the zerk guys can play as they please. you wanna be non-meta? great, just join a group that posts no requirements. i also don’t support linking zerk gear, thats just annoying, and you deserve to be kicked for that.
what i like about this mechanic in GW2, is that it forces (in a positive way) the player to be more involved. you can’t stay away from the group and spam heals 3ft away from everybody else. the effort to win an encounter is much more involving than that.
just be good at whatever role you wanna play, and find more general groups. you’ll be fine.
be good at what you play, and people would actually appreciate that. when i play group content i am involved in every encounter like everybody else is. my DPS is perhaps lower, but i make up for that, so we all win.
this, specifically is a mechanic – i think – that was done very well by a.net.
a.net: I will not be buying gems with cash until you fix traits.
(edited by Eric.6109)
I think all of the defensive stats are working intentionally, except maybe healing power which could use some buffs.
The problem is the other offensive stats, condition damage. The condi cap totally makes condi dmg useless in many parts of the game, and as a result some weapons and builds are never touched by other ppl. I knw there’s a technical limitation to this, but at least scale the maximum condi cap just like what you do to defiance stack
I think all of the defensive stats are working intentionally, except maybe healing power which could use some buffs.
The problem is the other offensive stats, condition damage. The condi cap totally makes condi dmg useless in many parts of the game, and as a result some weapons and builds are never touched by other ppl. I knw there’s a technical limitation to this, but at least scale the maximum condi cap just like what you do to defiance stack
i will repeat myself here..
Except that the condition cap is not a problem.
A fully buffed and maxed Condition Main does on average 25 to 30 percent less damage than its power counterpart.
the only place that this even matters is High End PvE group content. which only a Small portion of the player base actually Plays in.
Every Single Gear stat set is perfectly Viable. and functions exactly how it is supposed to. Changing the Game in many of the suggested ways will only destroy what is already a wonderful system.
the Content is not easy.
It is Old.
If you want to change the “Meta”. If you want to make other gear stats “more viable”. You need to convince the Developers to make NEW content, and MORE of it.
as an Aside:
How does me having one of my Many Necromancers In Zojja And Scholar affect your game in ANY way? at all?
How does ANY of my Characters in their various gear sets and builds have ANY affect on you…
I personally have been having a blast playing a Game called Guild wars 2. I have 14 fully gears characters. All meant for different aspects of this game.
Why are so many of you bent on breaking it?
I’m not a fan of meta either, but by asking for the meta to end you’re actually just asking for people to change the way they think and do things.
The concept of a meta isn’t exclusive to this game. Every MMO you can possibly think of has some form of meta, and that’s because a lot of people want to do things as efficiently as possible. This is pretty much impossible to avoid no matter how many nerfs ANet releases, and honestly going on a pointless nerfing rampage would harm the game far more than metas supposedly do.
Now the question I’ve always had on my mind is this, how does the playstyle of other players impact your game experience? To my understanding it was still completely possible to run whatever build you wanted provided you said so in the LFG, grouped up with friends or guild members who felt the same way, or anything of the sort.
Perhaps the glorious cookie cutter meta master race mindset harms the community, however perhaps I’m missing something because I still don’t see a viable fix or even the problem itself.
The concept of a meta isn’t exclusive to this game. Every MMO you can possibly think of has some form of meta, and that’s because a lot of people want to do things as efficiently as possible. This is pretty much impossible to avoid no matter how many nerfs ANet releases, and honestly going on a pointless nerfing rampage would harm the game far more than metas supposedly do.
People have a hard time ‘seeing the forest for the trees’ on this issue. Meta-gaming has been around since NES days. Remember Tetris? It’s always been infinitely more satisfying to clear four lines at once rather than bit-by-bit. Sometimes you wiped waiting for that one piece, but it was worth it when it worked.
I can see why people have an issue with the min-maxing ‘meta’ crowd. They’re generally unpleasant to run with. Thing is, no one has to play with them if they don’t want to. Outside of Arah and Fractals the more casual groups typically outnumber those with strict requirements.
But I suppose we will have to keep banging on and on about this until a dev comes in and settles the matter, so that whenever this topic comes up we can end it with a quote.
Except that the condition cap is not a problem.
I don’t know if I’d go that far :-P There are a lot of issues with conditions, but the cap still limits a lot of the possibilities for effective condition play.
You’re absolutely right, though. Old, stale content (challenging content, anyway) is the problem, but I don’t think anyone who can do anything about that cares.
I can see why people have an issue with the min-maxing ‘meta’ crowd. They’re generally unpleasant to run with. Thing is, no one has to play with them if they don’t want to. Outside of Arah and Fractals the more casual groups typically outnumber those with strict requirements.
Whats funny is, the people who are actually in elite pve guilds almost always run in “anything goes” pugs and aren’t very particular, in many cases they want the other players to be raw since its more fun for them to carry those kinds of groups. The “zerk only 5k AP” people aren’t actually even close to real min-maxers.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
Except that the condition cap is not a problem.
A fully buffed and maxed Condition Main does on average 25 to 30 percent less damage than its power counterpart.
the only place that this even matters is High End PvE group content. which only a Small portion of the player base actually Plays in.
No, you are wrong. Please do any pve content in the game with 10 or more ppl, and you will find that condi dmg is severely underwhelming compared to power. If you only get one tick/sec when you used to get 10 or more ticks/sec, you knw there’s something wrong with it. I don’t know which part of this end game pve content you are talking abt, but i can assure you any world events, guild missions, and mostly champ farming are affected by it (isnt this all that we do?).
There’s a huge difference between viable and not working intentionally. The only reason they haven’t done anything to this condi cap is because of the server limitation.
I can see why people have an issue with the min-maxing ‘meta’ crowd. They’re generally unpleasant to run with. Thing is, no one has to play with them if they don’t want to. Outside of Arah and Fractals the more casual groups typically outnumber those with strict requirements.
Whats funny is, the people who are actually in elite pve guilds almost always run in “anything goes” pugs and aren’t very particular, in many cases they want the other players to be raw since its more fun for them to carry those kinds of groups. The “zerk only 5k AP” people aren’t actually even close to real min-maxers.
Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :
- The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
- The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.
The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .
I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.
Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone
I can see why people have an issue with the min-maxing ‘meta’ crowd. They’re generally unpleasant to run with. Thing is, no one has to play with them if they don’t want to. Outside of Arah and Fractals the more casual groups typically outnumber those with strict requirements.
Whats funny is, the people who are actually in elite pve guilds almost always run in “anything goes” pugs and aren’t very particular, in many cases they want the other players to be raw since its more fun for them to carry those kinds of groups. The “zerk only 5k AP” people aren’t actually even close to real min-maxers.
Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :
- The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
- The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.
The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .
I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.
Numerous is an understatement, its like they’re a swarm of locusts.
Even with the second group around, threads like these would be avoided if folks would just make their own LFG posts instead of joining those they don’t meet the requirements for.
Find like-minded players, all is well.
Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :
- The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
- The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.
The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .
I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.
So to paraphrase this:
Its more fun playing with people who can do the dungeon for me, than with people who expect me to do my share of the effort.
mhmm, and this is why there is argument. People think they should be carried by others. In which case, you should be paying those “solo” players (oh wait, there is QQ about that too).
Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
People just want to play with like minded people. A very simple solution is to make your own LFG with clear specifications of what you’re looking for be it:
- Friendly whatever goes groups
- Zerker elitist pr00000 420 noscopes only
- Norns only
etc
Too bad logic and common sense seems to be beyond the grasp of many PvF heroes.
FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN
Even with the second group around, threads like these would be avoided if folks would just make their own LFG posts instead of joining those they don’t meet the requirements for.
Find like-minded players, all is well.
Your comment in regards to LFG doesn’t work. always
I’ve pinged LFM CM all paths casual full clear
numerous times.
Guess what? I keep getting those rabid zerker meta babbies who keep flipping out about me wanting to kill the dog cus it takes too long.
Well that’s their fault for not reading lol. Nothing much you can do about that.
FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN
Rabid zerker meta? Are you for real?
If you’re on EU and need help to get into dungeons, pm me.
Well that’s their fault for not reading lol. Nothing much you can do about that.
All I’m saying is that it is not an end all solution to make people happy, therefore the conclusion is not guaranteed.
If EVERYONE read carefully and abided by the LFG system, then yes we’d see a lot more happier people.
Unfortunately that’s not the case.
Rabid zerker meta? Are you for real?
C’mon now bb, every community subsector even the one that abides by the zerker meta or the PHIW meta have their rabid community members.
(edited by IllegalChocolate.6938)
Have you met the new nomad thief meta in WVW with mercy runes?
- Guaranteed barrel of laughs to see how long it takes people to hunt and destroy you.
There are ‘metas’ for everything – always will be .
[MYTH] The Mythical Dragons -PvX http://mythdragons.enjin.com
Even with the second group around, threads like these would be avoided if folks would just make their own LFG posts instead of joining those they don’t meet the requirements for.
Find like-minded players, all is well.
Your comment in regards to LFG doesn’t work. always
I’ve pinged LFM CM all paths casual full clear
numerous times.
Guess what? I keep getting those rabid zerker meta babbies who keep flipping out about me wanting to kill the dog cus it takes too long.
So then tell them the group was advertised “full clear”, and kick them if they keep causing problems.
Remember that what those guys are doing to you is exactly what people who start threads like this do to zerk groups. It’s the exact same thing. You have the tools to deal with it. Do so.
Rabid zerker meta? Are you for real?
lol, I thought the same thing (for some of the above posters who seem confused, remember that rabid is a gear stat, too :P)
Even with the second group around, threads like these would be avoided if folks would just make their own LFG posts instead of joining those they don’t meet the requirements for.
Find like-minded players, all is well.
Your comment in regards to LFG doesn’t work. always
I’ve pinged LFM CM all paths casual full clear
numerous times.
Guess what? I keep getting those rabid zerker meta babbies who keep flipping out about me wanting to kill the dog cus it takes too long.
So then tell them the group was advertised “full clear”, and kick them if they keep causing problems.
Remember that what those guys are doing to you is exactly what people who start threads like this do to zerk groups. It’s the exact same thing. You have the tools to deal with it. Do so.
This.
Double standards.
Alright to rage about groups who want to clear quickly.
Different story when you want to do a full clear and your pugs dont ey?
Again, people need to learn to read lfgs.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/LFG-Improvements/first#post4613815
This seems relevant right now.
Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Even with the second group around, threads like these would be avoided if folks would just make their own LFG posts instead of joining those they don’t meet the requirements for.
Find like-minded players, all is well.
Your comment in regards to LFG doesn’t work. always
I’ve pinged LFM CM all paths casual full clear
numerous times.
Guess what? I keep getting those rabid zerker meta babbies who keep flipping out about me wanting to kill the dog cus it takes too long.
So then tell them the group was advertised “full clear”, and kick them if they keep causing problems.
Remember that what those guys are doing to you is exactly what people who start threads like this do to zerk groups. It’s the exact same thing. You have the tools to deal with it. Do so.
As true as this is, it doesn’t solve the overarching problems with our dungeon community.
We have really yet to see anything past fractured that had anything to do with us and even that was a bust.
Without a unified dominate meta ideology that encourages togetherness, we will never see our community grow as a whole as a dungeon community.
As Teddy said in one of the twitch streams. “We want everyone to play together”.
The bottom-line.
We aren’t playing together, not nicely anyways.
Everyone playing nicely together in unrealistic. People don’t play for the same reasons…some run dungeons for fast clears/easy gold using a meta build, others do it to use “their” character’s build to just complete content regardless of time.
There’s nothing wrong with either playstyle, but they’ll never be happy playing with the other group.
Players just need to learn how to find a suitable group instead of coming here to whine about how the other group exists.
But it will never happen. We’ve been having this conversation for two years now, and it’s going to continue until the game dies. All we can do is try to show people the light.
Well the conclusion is clear: those that hate the meta should all form a guild designed to play with those that hate it.
I’m ready to open up my dead bank/RP guild for this purpose if I can get enough to join it.
House of Ishida [Ishi] will become such a guild for those that want to play the game the way it was meant to be played: NO ZERKER META!
Yumiko Emi Ishida 80 Ele, Hikari Kyoko Ishida 80 Guard TC-NA. Active RPer of NA megaserver.
Well the conclusion is clear: those that hate the meta should all form a guild designed to play with those that hate it.
I’m ready to open up my dead bank/RP guild for this purpose if I can get enough to join it.
House of Ishida [Ishi] will become such a guild for those that want to play the game the way it was meant to be played: NO ZERKER META!
While I don’t agree with the last part at all, this is EXACTLY what a guild is for.
Not an event rosta. Not a friends list. Not some other specific content. For being with like-minded players. Across all content.
Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Well the conclusion is clear: those that hate the meta should all form a guild designed to play with those that hate it.
I’m ready to open up my dead bank/RP guild for this purpose if I can get enough to join it.
House of Ishida [Ishi] will become such a guild for those that want to play the game the way it was meant to be played: NO ZERKER META!
Are you purposely trying to incite further arguements by making this comment? (bolded part)
Well the conclusion is clear: those that hate the meta should all form a guild designed to play with those that hate it.
I’m ready to open up my dead bank/RP guild for this purpose if I can get enough to join it.
House of Ishida [Ishi] will become such a guild for those that want to play the game the way it was meant to be played: NO ZERKER META!
Baiting remarks aside…
Speaking as a “filthy zerker elitist” (;P), this sounds like a wonderful idea. And, a much better way to approach the “problem” than complaining about the meta, like so many have done in the past and present (hell, and future).
Edit Might want to mention NA/EU (I’m guessing NA from your sig), and make a new thread about it (though it will quickly get moved out of this subforum if you make it here).
(edited by dlonie.6547)
Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :
- The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
- The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.
The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .
I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.
So to paraphrase this:
Its more fun playing with people who can do the dungeon for me, than with people who expect me to do my share of the effort.
mhmm, and this is why there is argument. People think they should be carried by others. In which case, you should be paying those “solo” players (oh wait, there is QQ about that too).
Don’t make me say what I’ve never thought. I’ve never been carried nor have I paid to be carried.
I’m just saying that some self proclaimed elite players are pain to play with because unless everyone in their group is playing meta they fail miserably. Thus these people resent heavily to carry newbs (simply because they can’t) and newbs then complain about their toxicity. That’s where all this argument comes from.
Don’t make false assumptions or statements about me please.
Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone
I don’t get why this had to get to 13 pages.
There are players that have done dungeons hundreds of times, and players that enjoy high risk, high reward, low time playthroughs.
There are players that have not done dungeons before, and players that enjoy high defense, but less quick parties.
There are foulmouthed individuals from both groups that want to impose their playstyle on anyone not matching it. The elitists are not the meta, and the people that demand to be carried are not the majority of those who do not want to play the meta.
They’re in a group called “jerks/kittens” and they dont have a required armor set.
you cannot ascribe negativity to an armor set. I’ve played knight/soldier and full zerker, and have played with stellar groups from both spectrums. They’re different flavors of parties with the same (Core) purpose, but different means of attaining said purpose, and the LFG tool helps you find whichever flavor of player you prefer.
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
(edited by Azure The Heartless.3261)
Everyone playing nicely together in unrealistic. People don’t play for the same reasons…some run dungeons for fast clears/easy gold using a meta build, others do it to use “their” character’s build to just complete content regardless of time.
There’s nothing wrong with either playstyle, but they’ll never be happy playing with the other group.
Players just need to learn how to find a suitable group instead of coming here to whine about how the other group exists.
But it will never happen. We’ve been having this conversation for two years now, and it’s going to continue until the game dies. All we can do is try to show people the light.
True enough that the absolute is impossible I will agree but a meta ideology whose only expectation is to be the best you can be with your toolsets that you’ve chosen arguably has a lower wall.
Doesn’t solve the problem entirely but it becomes much more bearable.
The root of this impossibility unfortunately as we’ve mentioned countless times in this thread and others is due to again, how one sided PvE dungeons are statistically.
Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :
- The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
- The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.
The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .
I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.
So to paraphrase this:
Its more fun playing with people who can do the dungeon for me, than with people who expect me to do my share of the effort.
mhmm, and this is why there is argument. People think they should be carried by others. In which case, you should be paying those “solo” players (oh wait, there is QQ about that too).
Don’t make me say what I’ve never thought. I’ve never been carried nor have I paid to be carried.
I’m just saying that some self proclaimed elite players are pain to play with because unless everyone in their group is playing meta they fail miserably. Thus these people resent heavily to carry newbs (simply because they can’t) and newbs then complain about their toxicity. That’s where all this argument comes from.
Don’t make false assumptions or statements about me please.
bolded points.
point 1: you have already said you prefer to play with those who can solo, over those who expect you to pull your weight. Urgo: carried.
point 2 You’re the one proclaiming them elite. Whos putting words into whose mouth?
point 3:Can’t carry is not won’t carry.
Those capable of faster dungeons want them, because they want more loot. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
4 man is faster than carrying bad people in most cases.
Your entire response is basically arguing that bad players should be carried by good ones. Or meta players should carry non-meta players.
My paraphrasing was accurate.
Edit:
original post for reference
Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :
- The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
- The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.
The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .
I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.
So to paraphrase this:
Its more fun playing with people who can do the dungeon for me, than with people who expect me to do my share of the effort.
mhmm, and this is why there is argument. People think they should be carried by others. In which case, you should be paying those “solo” players (oh wait, there is QQ about that too).
Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
is the LFG (Zerker (not)required) tool that difficult to use?
ikr? Apparently so.
I removed this because I’m sure I’d get a snarky, circumlocative response for my trouble, but it works just fine on most dungeons for me. There are myriads of people playing for (speedrun/gottagotoworkdoitfast/Iwanttheshinywehavedonethisbefore) as well as myriads of people playing for(IhealyouSOgood/Idontfearcircles/Rezzingyouquickifyou’reanewbie).
All you have to do is call for em.
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
I think as another one of AsuraNet’s evil experiments, they have split the community in two and created a LFG translator that makes:
Test Group 1’s LFG message: “all welcome full clear” appear as “all welcome full clear” to other Test Group 1 members. In addition “80s speed clear exp zerkers” also appears as “80s speed clear exp zerkers” to other Test Group 1 members.
However, when Test Group 2 see’s Test Group 1’s LFG messages they see:
- “80s speed clear exp zerkers” as “first time, no zerkers, plz don’t use party chat”
and - “all welcome full clear” as “hardcore speed run, setting a record, no slow scrubs”
In addition, when Test Group 2 makes a LFG that says “AC story RP run” Test Group 1 sees it as “AC p1 skipping cutscenes”
Also the Test Group 2 ele trying to solo Mai Trin and repeatedly insta rezzing is having Test Group 1 people yelling at her “stop reviving, this is going to take hours without us!” while she’s reading “You can do it! We believe in you!”
^ Uses Guild Wars 2 character screenshots for desktop wallpapers.
I think it should be said that “Meta” is not synonymous with “player toxicity.” It may seem that way, but it isnt.
Meta is the widely agreed upon “most efficient way to play the game” but nobody is holding you to that and should not be looking down on you if you decide to explore the less seen builds.
It just so happens that the toxic elitists like to win, so you will find them often using cookie cutter builds because they leave less room for error, but they are NOT the meta population.
As I mentioned in a similar thread, there is a difference between a knight that goes without a shield because he doesnt need it, vs. a knight that goes without a shield because he’s prideful.
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
point 1: you have already said you prefer to play with those who can solo, over those who expect you to pull your weight. Urgo: carried.
point 2 You’re the one proclaiming them elite. Whos putting words into whose mouth?
point 3:Can’t carry is not won’t carry.
Those capable of faster dungeons want them, because they want more loot. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
4 man is faster than carrying bad people in most cases.
Your entire response is basically arguing that bad players should be carried by good ones. Or meta players should carry non-meta players.
My paraphrasing was accurate.
Ergo not urgo. Urgo was a character in Stargate SG-1 (played by Dom DeLuise). Also I believe Vod was trying to expand on hybrid (Nike?)‘s point. Here I’ll quote it for you -
Whats funny is, the people who are actually in elite pve guilds almost always run in “anything goes” pugs and aren’t very particular, in many cases they want the other players to be raw since its more fun for them to carry those kinds of groups. The “zerk only 5k AP” people aren’t actually even close to real min-maxers.
[BAD] a casual PvE guild on Aurora Glade.
http://bad-eu.guildlaunch.com
The Family Deuce. Asuran Adventure Specialists.
http://bad-eu.guildlaunch.com
The Family Deuce. Asuran Adventure Specialists.
I can see why people have an issue with the min-maxing ‘meta’ crowd. They’re generally unpleasant to run with. Thing is, no one has to play with them if they don’t want to. Outside of Arah and Fractals the more casual groups typically outnumber those with strict requirements.
Whats funny is, the people who are actually in elite pve guilds almost always run in “anything goes” pugs and aren’t very particular, in many cases they want the other players to be raw since its more fun for them to carry those kinds of groups. The “zerk only 5k AP” people aren’t actually even close to real min-maxers.
Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :
- The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
- The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.
The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .
I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.
If I could solo the dungeon and wanted to why would I take others along?
You take people along so that the process goes faster not so you can carry them to easy loot.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Well the conclusion is clear: those that hate the meta should all form a guild designed to play with those that hate it.
I’m ready to open up my dead bank/RP guild for this purpose if I can get enough to join it.
House of Ishida [Ishi] will become such a guild for those that want to play the game the way it was meant to be played: NO ZERKER META!
Baiting remarks aside…
Speaking as a “filthy zerker elitist” (;P), this sounds like a wonderful idea. And, a much better way to approach the “problem” than complaining about the meta, like so many have done in the past and present (hell, and future).
Edit Might want to mention NA/EU (I’m guessing NA from your sig), and make a new thread about it (though it will quickly get moved out of this subforum if you make it here).
Its not the zerker gear itself that bugs me (I have it too and full set!) as much but its everything that goes with it.
The stacking in a corner and running past mobs that would normally melt anyways in 10 seconds flat no matter what you wear, just to get me killed for being the slower computer specs or class or both. It just doesn’t promote smart play and knowing your class well. Its just stack and Press 1 and sometimes use PBAOES and a heal skill!
And the “play our way or never be in a party.” cause everyone has to “Can’t beat them? Join them.” really makes it impossible to get any groups. Even for non dungeons as no one wants to do anything but beat dungeons as fast as possible over and over for money. I did find better and faster methods for making gold and not have to deal with any of this anymore.
I need achievements for stuff but nope no one wants to do that as they are stuck in this meta and only dungeons matter in GW 2. So I get kittened and rage at the meta for different reasons. And here I am, again.
Also the favoritism of certain paths over others is getting old. I’m lucky I got all 4 arah paths done. It did take me almost 2 years, however. “Sorry we only do 1 and 3 <insert dungeon here>. Path 2 is not worth doing cause money is too hard to get.” Just help the god kitten achievement hunters for once? Maybe they’ll help you in the future in return? Ever thought of that?
I watched an old vid on youtube in the early days of gw 2 with the Old AC path 2 (not the Ghost Busters crap) and it was an hour 30 minutes long run of that path, complete with a skilled and balanced group (save a lv 46 thief Asura that died to every big champ/legendary only casue of his level) that fought everything and did it well. Even Kohler which we now get behind a pillar on the opposite side and have everything on top of us, they fought beautifully in the old way he was fought!
1. they did not stack
2. they did not skip anything
3. they had fun
4. they probably didn’t care about levels or gear.
5. they still did it faster than I ever done it full clear. I took upwards 3-4 hours for me and a PUG.
6. they used every mechanic at their disposal.
This shows true skill that doesn’t exist anymore, all because of a stupid meta.
Yumiko Emi Ishida 80 Ele, Hikari Kyoko Ishida 80 Guard TC-NA. Active RPer of NA megaserver.
I can see why people have an issue with the min-maxing ‘meta’ crowd. They’re generally unpleasant to run with. Thing is, no one has to play with them if they don’t want to. Outside of Arah and Fractals the more casual groups typically outnumber those with strict requirements.
Whats funny is, the people who are actually in elite pve guilds almost always run in “anything goes” pugs and aren’t very particular, in many cases they want the other players to be raw since its more fun for them to carry those kinds of groups. The “zerk only 5k AP” people aren’t actually even close to real min-maxers.
Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :
- The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
- The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.
The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .
I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.
If I could solo the dungeon and wanted to why would I take others along?
You take people along so that the process goes faster not so you can carry them to easy loot.
Because Lupi hardmode is fun.
Honestly, sometimes it’s fun to make it harder on yourself and people who play poorly can create that situation for you.
Furthermore, I already have my dungeon master already, I don’t even do dungeons unless I need tokens, and even then, I can just PVP. Even though I suck at it, I’m more likely to get what I want than dealing with all this tripe.
Yumiko Emi Ishida 80 Ele, Hikari Kyoko Ishida 80 Guard TC-NA. Active RPer of NA megaserver.
Its not the zerker gear itself that bugs me (I have it too and full set!) as much but its everything that goes with it.
The stacking in a corner and running past mobs that would normally melt anyways in 10 seconds flat no matter what you wear, just to get me killed for being the slower computer specs or class or both. It just doesn’t promote smart play and knowing your class well. Its just stack and Press 1 and sometimes use PBAOES and a heal skill!
And the “play our way or never be in a party.” cause everyone has to “Can’t beat them? Join them.” really makes it impossible to get any groups. Even for non dungeons as no one wants to do anything but beat dungeons as fast as possible over and over for money. I did find better and faster methods for making gold and not have to deal with any of this anymore.
I need achievements for stuff but nope no one wants to do that as they are stuck in this meta and only dungeons matter in GW 2. So I get kittened and rage at the meta for different reasons. And here I am, again.
Also the favoritism of certain paths over others is getting old. I’m lucky I got all 4 arah paths done. It did take me almost 2 years, however. “Sorry we only do 1 and 3 <insert dungeon here>. Path 2 is not worth doing cause money is too hard to get.” Just help the god kitten achievement hunters for once? Maybe they’ll help you in the future in return? Ever thought of that?
Once again: Every single problem above is solved by starting your own group.
Even with the second group around, threads like these would be avoided if folks would just make their own LFG posts instead of joining those they don’t meet the requirements for.
Find like-minded players, all is well.
Your comment in regards to LFG doesn’t work. always
I’ve pinged LFM CM all paths casual full clear
numerous times.
Guess what? I keep getting those rabid zerker meta babbies who keep flipping out about me wanting to kill the dog cus it takes too long.
So then tell them the group was advertised “full clear”, and kick them if they keep causing problems.
Remember that what those guys are doing to you is exactly what people who start threads like this do to zerk groups. It’s the exact same thing. You have the tools to deal with it. Do so.
As true as this is, it doesn’t solve the overarching problems with our dungeon community.
We have really yet to see anything past fractured that had anything to do with us and even that was a bust.
Without a unified dominate meta ideology that encourages togetherness, we will never see our community grow as a whole as a dungeon community.
As Teddy said in one of the twitch streams. “We want everyone to play together”.
The bottom-line.
We aren’t playing together, not nicely anyways.
Because people don’t want to play with certain people. You can’t make me play with people I don’t want to play with no matter how much you try to push them down my throat.
If they’re : slow, bad, uninformed, of a different mindset – I won’t want to play with them. The meta can change and change and keep changing until it can’t change anymore – it won’t make me magically want to party up with people I want nothing to do with.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”