Guild Wars 2

Ranael.6423:

First introducing more randomness to combat and defense would make the game too far away from its original foundtions and while I’m not a programmer I guess that introducing additional dice rolls in the code to know if you block or not would increase latency and then weaken the dynamic aspect of combat.

Right, but the foundation of the game is extremely forgiving and adaptable. Adaptable is very good for PvP though, but being so means encounters will always be doomed to become easy just like all the currently old content.

Also, I don’t think extra dice rolls are really an issue. Computers make calculations constantly to pinpoint your location, how much damage an attack does to a target, when to display certain animations and so on. Currently, Weakness already calculates whether a normal hit will glance via a ‘dice roll’.

Ranael.6423:

Second, the potency stat is a very dangerous one that would then strike the build diversity by locking skills to gear.

That is sort of the point, though.

The approach is, just like offensive skills are tied to offensive stats, so too are defensive skills tied to defensive stats. But then the approach is also meant to step away from defensive stats largely affecting passive defense. Instead, it’s meant to bolster active defense.

Ranael.6423:

Just a quick example : I am a turret engi defensively geared with no potency, I make my turrets explode in fire fields and get kicked immediately because I stacked weak might on my allies instead of letting the potency guy explode in the field.
I’m quite sure that at least these two suggestions wouldn’t bring anything good to the game and the community.

Well firstly, to stack might using fire fields, you’d need whirl finishers. Whirl finishers would take a couple seconds to get that team the might. If you aren’t good at stacking boons because you lack potency, you can always organize with your group to decide who is optimal to do that task. Secondly, boons will be rarer. Your team may only occasionally reach maximum stacks of might and it might be because everyone is contributing to that despite how much potency they have.

Whether they have the strongest boons or not may not always matter when boons are more of a reactive/planned occurance rather than a common commodity currently taken for granted.

And at some point, you’d have to look at your engi build and decide what approach is best for him. So he might not be the best at stacking boons because he lacks potency. Well there are other boons that scale by the targets’ stats, such as fury…

DigitalKirin.9714:

So why is Marty wearing Hockey equipment?

HE’S NOT WEARING HOCKEY PADS!
(I’m sorry, I had to)

Why is it so hard for people to understand that Anet designed gear stats to be independent of skill function to support their vision of GW2s active combat system? Gear is not meant to define you within a group. It is a personal, passive offensive/defensive sliding scaler. It is nothing else. Story over. The end.

i do every piece of content in this game and i spit fire at any1 asking if we are zerkers and i find i attract the people who feel the same way, just stand up for what you want in life

Duke Nukem.6783:

i do every piece of content in this game and i spit fire at any1 asking if we are zerkers and i find i attract the people who feel the same way, just stand up for what you want in life

Fight for mediocrity! Hoorah!

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Duke Nukem.6783:

i do every piece of content in this game and i spit fire at any1 asking if we are zerkers and i find i attract the people who feel the same way, just stand up for what you want in life

Fight for mediocrity! Hoorah!

“For Narnia!!!”

Duke Nukem.6783:

i do every piece of content in this game and i spit fire at any1 asking if we are zerkers and i find i attract the people who feel the same way, just stand up for what you want in life

and the zerk players stand up for what they want as well. Its thinking like that is how wars and genocide all starts

Duke Nukem.6783:

i do every piece of content in this game and i spit fire at any1 asking if we are zerkers and i find i attract the people who feel the same way, just stand up for what you want in life

Nobody in the ‘zerker community’ has stated that you can’t do “every piece of content in this game” with a different gear setup. In fact, we’ve emphatically stated the opposite. We just find it sub par and silly for PvE. That is all. The virulent ‘anti-meta’ hate I find quite interesting though when I hear about how ‘toxic’ these ‘elitist’ players are.

You know what a REBEL without a cause is?

….just a really annoying person….

Leo. G. what you propose for reflects is not a good idea. Karka will rip whatever classes that can combat them to shreds even more than already happens now. Reflect AFAIK, isn’t really used that much other than to fight karka and a few other select mobs.

Getting hit by one spit shot out of all its 6-10 hits is like 2000-4000 damage even in most defensive gear. Making reflect like you have it on your post will kill anyone as the karka will only get reflected back one and the rest will go through doing 16000+ damage total killing any player unwary.

Same with dodges, you will get hit at least twice with the two dodges as is if timed poorly. One dodge not enough for that deadly area.

I fight karka. I farm Karka. I know what I’m talking about.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Leo. G. what you propose for reflects is not a good idea. Karka will rip whatever classes that can combat them to shreds even more than already happens now. Reflect AFAIK, isn’t really used that much other than to fight karka and a few other select mobs.

Getting hit by one spit shot out of all its 6-10 hits is like 2000-4000 damage even in most defensive gear. Making reflect like you have it on your post will kill anyone as the karka will only get reflected back one and the rest will go through doing 16000+ damage total killing any player unwary.

Same with dodges, you will get hit at least twice with the two dodges as is if timed poorly. One dodge not enough for that deadly area.

I fight karka. I farm Karka. I know what I’m talking about.

When you say both of these things in the same post, people won’t take you serious.
BTW, Leo is completely oblivious to the fact that there is PvP in this game.

Harper.4173:

The bottom line is those are my 15 minutes and I’d rather not waste them regardless of how unimportant they seem to you.

…

Again – let me make myself clear – it is not wasted time since it’s time I’m spending in order to relax, burn stress and make sure I can perform other activities at 100%.

If you want to understand more about what I’m trying to explain feel free to whisper me.

Right, so if you’re enjoying yourself and relaxing, and the time isn’t wasted, why is this a problem? You break it down with quite a bit of scientific jargon and carry overall an air of attempted intellect, but all I read from this is that your enjoyment stems solely from the basis of being rewarded by making optimal use of your time through tangible/concrete rewards for performing a given task, and that you wish to complete these tasks as quickly as possible for the maximum reward.

Not only is your post simply contradictory when you mention that the time isn’t wasted and that you like spending it performing this activity, but it’s also indicative that the only way it isn’t wasted is when you’re being rewarded, which mirrors some of the latter points in my previous post.

Additionally, I’d read up on Skinner and Konorski and evaluate what you just wrote in response – frankly, it seems to me that your definition of of fun/enjoyment is derived from the effects of operant conditioning in an immediate reward-driven lifestyle.

Back on topic, the problem still lies not in the stat allocation and distribution among equipment sets and their effects in combat but in why the optimization of certain strategies creates metagame strategies. Metagames are literally optimizations – abstract optimizations – or games within games – which define the “best” methodology of approaching a given situation based on a desired output yield; due to the fact this is an optimization within a confined environment, if variables change, that optimization at some threshold is guaranteed to also change.

And it can only change, not be removed altogether.

This is asserted in that in order to create a situation where there exists no metagame strategy, the ability to create an algorithmic solution to an associated problem must be removed. This implies one of two things:

Either there are infinitely many variables allowed to influence the problem (impossible due to programmatic limitations when examining computation theory and algorithms),

or

Two different algorithms perform exactly identical operations despite being differently constructed (a paradox; similar to 1 = 2).

So how are metagame strategies better removed? Well, by simply attempting to increase the pool of available variables to create the illusion that there are infinitely many, or try to approach infinitely many as best as possible.

Therefore in this kind of context, optimization adjustments to just raw numerical data will not affect much, for the variables are pretty much figured out.

So adding more – or simply changing – the number variables is what needs to occur.

So in TL;DR/simple speech, the dungeon design needs to change, since the algorithms of how to solve the problem have been figured out, and running some numbers is all it takes to tweak the dominant metagame strategy into a new one, merely moving the problem somewhere else, and we’re back at square one. By altering the dungeons to allow for the incorporation of more variables, the metagame requires much more effort to re-establish due to more complexity and dependencies on the differences between human interactions with the content.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

tired of all this meta crap

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Don’t play with failure event farmers

Sometimes I wonder who’s toxic :/

@Leo – You suggestions I can’t agree with. Giving people less dodges or making blocks unreliable is basically forcing them to eat hit regardless of skill level.

That’s not what this game was designed to do and I fundamentally disagree with this kind of idea.

DeceiverX.8361:

Stuff

It is indeed exactly so. The time is not wasted because it is used to relax but the only way the game experience is relaxing is for it to happen in a very specific way.

That way is to obtain a high number of good rewards in a short amount of time. If that doesn’t happen the experience becomes lacking. I like spending time performing this activity when it happens on my terms. If it doesn’t then the time is not so well spent. So that’s why when in game I take every precaution so things happen the way I want them to and that my goals are achieved.

Additionally, I’d read up on Skinner and Konorski and evaluate what you just wrote in response – frankly, it seems to me that your definition of of fun/enjoyment is derived from the effects of operant conditioning in an immediate reward-driven lifestyle.

I am familiar with this and this is mostly correct. Is this a problem?

Also your proposed solution about the meta – while theoretically viable – is not something Anet will implement since they’ve pretty much abandoned the dungeon-side of content already. Their dungeon team is dissolved. The dungeons themselves rarely see fixes let alone overhauls.

Simply put there’s no interest in doing it since it would only touch a presumably small segment of the player base.

Just checked lfgs for AC. People are enforcing triple warrior groups.

This meta has to end.

Wethospu.6437:

Just checked lfgs for AC. People are enforcing triple warrior groups.

This meta has to end.

Triple and not five warriors?.. pff casuals.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Reflect AFAIK, isn’t really used that much other than to fight karka and a few other select mobs.

wot

Wethospu.6437:

Just checked lfgs for AC. People are enforcing triple warrior groups.

They’re allowed to play how they want, are they not? What’s the problem?

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Leo. G. what you propose for reflects is not a good idea. Karka will rip whatever classes that can combat them to shreds even more than already happens now. Reflect AFAIK, isn’t really used that much other than to fight karka and a few other select mobs.

Getting hit by one spit shot out of all its 6-10 hits is like 2000-4000 damage even in most defensive gear. Making reflect like you have it on your post will kill anyone as the karka will only get reflected back one and the rest will go through doing 16000+ damage total killing any player unwary.

Reflect is indeed used in encounter, sometimes even as a meta strategy. If anything, Reflect is overpowered, not niche use. Also, that isn’t how I proposed Reflect to work, I said only the 1st hit would be 100% reflected. From there, the chances split off and you have a 45% chance of your reflect failing and 55% chance it won’t fail (35% chance it will deflect and 20% chance of reflect).

I can see what you’re saying though, but my idea for reflect kind of rolls into the rest of the idea. It’s meant to be like that so a character defensively geared and traited can’t reap the full benefits of the reflected damage while also maintaining the defensive edge of negating projectiles. With enough precision though, you can improve your reflect to 65% reflect and 35% chance of deflect.

Tman.6349:

BTW, Leo is completely oblivious to the fact that there is PvP in this game.

I do understand that PvP is in the game and realize that what I suggest would upset that. But I feel it’s already an uphill battle to completely incorporate all changes into every gameplay mode. I won’t say Anet is wrong for trying, but I just hope it doesn’t bog down the possible additions to character content (such as more weapons/skills/elites). Balance is a good thing to aim for (and I think PvP is quite close compared to the majority that’s on the market today) but stagnation is very bad, particularly for PvE.

Harper.4173:

@Leo – You suggestions I can’t agree with. Giving people less dodges or making blocks unreliable is basically forcing them to eat hit regardless of skill level.

That’s not what this game was designed to do and I fundamentally disagree with this kind of idea.

You are entirely welcomed to disagree! I don’t expect Anet to change their character build approach but it’s a hard sell to keep playing with limited variety.

That said, the idea doesn’t give people less dodges, it makes them pay for more dodges and the end result would allow you to dodge 25% more often than currently if you build for it, possibly even 50% more if you’ve got a potent source of Vigor.

But the purpose for the change is, currently, once you understand an encounter well enough, you don’t need all the dodges you currently have. You have more than enough tools to possibly even solo the content with mild-high challenge.

So why just pile on a bunch of get-out-of-jail-free cards? To help people who are learning the content? Did people not just say that is what defensive gear is currently for, to give you that extra buffer to survive long enough to learn? That won’t change. In fact, it will partially change that they will need to use their cards to play and learn, not get by with only passive defense as well as increase the stakes for those without those cards…but also, if you just so happen to like playing with those extra cards, there should be build incentives to make it worthwhile.

Harper.4173:

@Leo – You suggestions I can’t agree with. Giving people less dodges or making blocks unreliable is basically forcing them to eat hit regardless of skill level.

That’s not what this game was designed to do and I fundamentally disagree with this kind of idea.

Oh, I also forgot about the eating hits regardless of skill. That is certainly a perspective. I say it requires more skill to adapt to unintended situations so if something ended up doing more to you than you anticipated, you’d need to pull off some quick thinking or end up relying on a team member to help you out. Skill shouldn’t make you invincible, it should simply make you capable to adapt.

And it’s not like you wouldn’t have the tools to give you more dodges or to make your blocks 100% damage negation, you’d just have to make that choice and sacrifice for it. That is one of the mainstays of character building in RPGs, after all.

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

dlonie.6547:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

dlonie.6547:

Even with the second group around, threads like these would be avoided if folks would just make their own LFG posts instead of joining those they don’t meet the requirements for.

Find like-minded players, all is well.

Your comment in regards to LFG doesn’t work. always

I’ve pinged LFM CM all paths casual full clear

numerous times.

Guess what? I keep getting those rabid zerker meta babbies who keep flipping out about me wanting to kill the dog cus it takes too long.

So then tell them the group was advertised “full clear”, and kick them if they keep causing problems.

Remember that what those guys are doing to you is exactly what people who start threads like this do to zerk groups. It’s the exact same thing. You have the tools to deal with it. Do so.

As true as this is, it doesn’t solve the overarching problems with our dungeon community.

We have really yet to see anything past fractured that had anything to do with us and even that was a bust.

Without a unified dominate meta ideology that encourages togetherness, we will never see our community grow as a whole as a dungeon community.

As Teddy said in one of the twitch streams. “We want everyone to play together”.

The bottom-line.

We aren’t playing together, not nicely anyways.

Because people don’t want to play with certain people. You can’t make me play with people I don’t want to play with no matter how much you try to push them down my throat.

If they’re : slow, bad, uninformed, of a different mindset – I won’t want to play with them. The meta can change and change and keep changing until it can’t change anymore – it won’t make me magically want to party up with people I want nothing to do with.

Then so be it. If this is the dominate meta ideal, we will never be truly supported because of the fact there is just simply, no money in us. Without the desire to build, strengthen, and unify the dungeon community as a whole, without a ruling body that encourages reception in our fields, we will slowly come smaller and smaller until a small niche dungeon community is all that is left because we cannot build global interest.

I want new explorable dungeon content in our expected framework, those of you of the zerker meta clearly don’t.

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

zerker warriors in the silverwastes generally run axe/mace hammer, or hambow for the teragriff interrupts.

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Stop exaggerating it doesn’t help.

hybrid.5027:

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Stop exaggerating it doesn’t help.

its completely false regardless.

I still walk around there in full zerker, blue oasis goes down in seconds with a power team.

Now why do people hate players that know how to play there profession and can play the meta?

These individuals have put a lot of time and effort into things rather than face roll 1 in open world content.

TPMN.1483:

Now why do people hate players that know how to play there profession and can play the meta?

These individuals have put a lot of time and effort into things rather than face roll 1 in open world content.

I think the current subject of hate is the zerker meta which is a completely different subject in itself.

Hasn’t ANET wasted enough time having to perform an initial zerker nerf as indivudla already felt it was too powerful ?

We can cry about meta all we want there will always be an optimal setup for a specific zone (game, aspect of your own real life – eg wear a suit to an interview if you want to get a well paid job).

I would prefer more and new content is developed rather than worrying about the “meta” or a “meta existing”

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I want new explorable dungeon content in our expected framework, those of you of the zerker meta clearly don’t.

Who said those who play the meta don’t want new content?

I’m pretty sure most of the meta players want new content/new dungeons as much as the phiw.

TPMN.1483:

Hasn’t ANET wasted enough time having to perform an initial zerker nerf as indivudla already felt it was too powerful ?

We can cry about meta all we want there will always be an optimal setup for a specific zone (game, aspect of your own real life – eg wear a suit to an interview if you want to get a well paid job).

I would prefer more and new content is developed rather than worrying about the “meta” or a “meta existing”

nerfing berserker gear was the wrong way to do it and I stand by that statement. If you’ve read (which I know you have) my suggestions in regards to AI improvements, you’ll know that the best way to tackle that the most optimal approach involved blurring those lines with rewards in hopes of distracting the over analysis.

EDIT: Anet is already capable of doing this, silverwastes is a clear example of that, we need them to do something for US with the toolsets they already have available..

Artemis Thuras.8795:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I want new explorable dungeon content in our expected framework, those of you of the zerker meta clearly don’t.

Who said those who play the meta don’t want new content?

I’m pretty sure most of the meta players want new content/new dungeons as much as the phiw.

Actions speak louder than words. You can say you want it all day, but if the metrics don’t support our claims, words fall flat. Metrics are just numbers yes, but Anet looks at metrics and media, we need whatever it is they pay attention to or look at to say something that plays in our favor.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Actions speak louder than words. You can say you want it all day, but if the metrics don’t support our claims, words fall flat. Metrics are just numbers yes, but Anet looks at metrics and media, we need whatever it is they pay attention to or look at to say something that plays in our favor.

Would you like a cookie, Captain Obvious?

Provide appropriate rewards for the difficulty of content, and people will do it.

Morsus.5106:

Wethospu.6437:

Just checked lfgs for AC. People are enforcing triple warrior groups.

They’re allowed to play how they want, are they not? What’s the problem?

They don’t play how I want.

Wethospu.6437:

Morsus.5106:

Wethospu.6437:

Just checked lfgs for AC. People are enforcing triple warrior groups.

They’re allowed to play how they want, are they not? What’s the problem?

They don’t play how I want.

I’m hoping you’re being sarcastic, but I’ve been let down on these forums before…

Harper.4173:

DeceiverX.8361:

Stuff

It is indeed exactly so. The time is not wasted because it is used to relax but the only way the game experience is relaxing is for it to happen in a very specific way.

That way is to obtain a high number of good rewards in a short amount of time. If that doesn’t happen the experience becomes lacking. I like spending time performing this activity when it happens on my terms. If it doesn’t then the time is not so well spent. So that’s why when in game I take every precaution so things happen the way I want them to and that my goals are achieved.

Additionally, I’d read up on Skinner and Konorski and evaluate what you just wrote in response – frankly, it seems to me that your definition of of fun/enjoyment is derived from the effects of operant conditioning in an immediate reward-driven lifestyle.

I am familiar with this and this is mostly correct. Is this a problem?

Also your proposed solution about the meta – while theoretically viable – is not something Anet will implement since they’ve pretty much abandoned the dungeon-side of content already. Their dungeon team is dissolved. The dungeons themselves rarely see fixes let alone overhauls.

Simply put there’s no interest in doing it since it would only touch a presumably small segment of the player base.

Thus, by asking for anything but changes to the dungeons or labeling a fix as attempting to remove a metagame by removing the ability for players to optimiz (I.E., diversity), the problem does not get resolved and simply affects other players in an equally-negative fashion.

Frankly, if GW2 does not have any kind of dungeon team and has nobody working on the dungeons/permanent story/creating more permanent content, they simply deserve to lose business by those who are uninterested with the way the game is playing, seeing as there’s no reasonable alternative. Changing numbers does nothing to solve the problem and only creates more possible problems in other game modes and styles of play.

I’m not saying “Deal with it because I like berserker gear/believe it deserves to be the dungeon PvE metagame strategy because skill” as some have, but merely stating “deal with it if they’re not changing dungeons to actually solve the problem.”

-“PHIW dungeon runs are impossible to find an LFG for and it’s all because of these toxic, elitist zekers!!”
-“Wtf? These toxic, elitist zerkers kicked me out of another ‘zerker only’ dungeon run only because I’m running my PHIW build that, apparently, isn’t good enough for these kittens!!”

This is the apitome of circular logic. The fact that dozens of people echo this sentiment is only sad. If 5 of the QQers would just make their own lfg, then the other 20 could join their group and they would accomplish 5 dungeon runs to their liking. Heck, it might even open up the opportunity for the ‘up and coming’ PHIW dungeoneers to get into a group to learn w/o feeling overwhelmed or excluded. You are your own worst enemy. Not us. We resorted to the responsible method of finding like minded players long ago. I don’t know how that didn’t catch on for everyone. Or is that notion considered ‘meta strategy’ and must be adamantly opposed as well?

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I want new explorable dungeon content in our expected framework, those of you of the zerker meta clearly don’t.

Who said those who play the meta don’t want new content?

I’m pretty sure most of the meta players want new content/new dungeons as much as the phiw.

Actions speak louder than words. You can say you want it all day, but if the metrics don’t support our claims, words fall flat. Metrics are just numbers yes, but Anet looks at metrics and media, we need whatever it is they pay attention to or look at to say something that plays in our favor.

This doesnt make sense. Pretty much everyone in every top speedrun guild has been asking for new content and more difficulty. And we dont believe theres a problem with the meta in terms of core design. Weve embraced the game for what it is. We just want better content which compliments it.

If anything the anti meta people dont care about new dungeons as much as they dont do them as much. And they would be satisfied with completely revamping the game. But thats getting into broad generalisions. Although i have noticed a very large proportion of aggressive anti meta players have indicated in their posts that they actually barely touch dungeons and fractals and that they focus more on open world and world bosses. Kind of interesting dont you think? Should also point out that they often have flawed arguements based on a lack of knowledge towards dungeon strategies.

I’d rather run with a 4/5 zerker team than a 5/5 anything else. The 4/5 zerker team would still finish first. Other armor stats are simply not optimal.

Also relevant topic:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/For-anybody-intimidated-by-dungeons/

TPMN.1483:

Hasn’t ANET wasted enough time having to perform an initial zerker nerf as indivudla already felt it was too powerful ?

Yes they did, people missed the part where balance was restored.

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Was thinking about silverwastes, have to modify my own position;

“Classic Meta” zerker is terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.

Silverwastes is in a lot of ways an inversion of the dungeon meta (excepting guardians who are always handy of course). It’s a brave new world where you can actually end up thinking ‘wow I wish I had more longbow Rangers’.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

…..Reflect AFAIK, isn’t really used that much other than to fight karka and a few other select mobs.

I’ll quote you next time someone wants me to bring Wall of Reflection or Shield of the Avenger.

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Done without any problem. Anything else?

Windsagio.1340:

terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.
So I’m a terrible player if I can take down a husk in a few seconds with my zerker thief? And they are the only foes which take a little bit longer to kill in zerker gear. All other foes die just as fast as non-silverwastes foes.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.
Have you ever tried to use the dodge-function? Or CC skills? Or immobilising skills?

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.
Only husks die faster with conditions.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.
Dead foes can’t overrun a fort

Comments in the quote. The assumptions you make aren’t totally wrong, but they aren’t true either.

Moka.8432:

Windsagio.1340:

terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.
So I’m a terrible player if I can take down a husk in a few seconds with my zerker thief? And they are the only foes which take a little bit longer to kill in zerker gear. All other foes die just as fast as non-silverwastes foes.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.
Have you ever tried to use the dodge-function?

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.
Only husks die faster with conditions.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.
Dead foes can’t overrun a fort

Comments in the quote.

You came at this from a OMG DEFEND ZERK position not a ’response position still;

1) Enjoy that tetragrypth that blindsided you with a chain knockdown charge and killed you in 2 bounces. Fragile melee is fragile and in melee, there are things in SW that make that tough.

2) You don’t have that many dodges. You can kill small groups and skulk around the edges, but zerk melee tends to end up just another body when the kitten gets real. Like I said, it’s still great for the escorts.

3) But everything dies from conditions, and you’re most likely not having your conditions being overwritten by other players. You don’t seem to be entirely clear on how the problems with conditions work.

4) Well sure, if you have mass numbers to cover all approaches and at the same time don’t overscale the event.

~~~

Like I said, it’s fine in escorts (depending on the spread of opponents) but breaks down in fort actions, there’s too much chaos to predictably mitigate.

Some versions are also problematic in some of the bosses

Windsagio.1340:

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Was thinking about silverwastes, have to modify my own position;

“Classic Meta” zerker is terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.

Silverwastes is in a lot of ways an inversion of the dungeon meta (excepting guardians who are always handy of course). It’s a brave new world where you can actually end up thinking ‘wow I wish I had more longbow Rangers’.

Except I’m a zerk warrior and I do fine in the silverwastes. I can faceroll up and down with no issues in melee range.

It’s not about gear, but skill.

spoj.9672:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I want new explorable dungeon content in our expected framework, those of you of the zerker meta clearly don’t.

Who said those who play the meta don’t want new content?

I’m pretty sure most of the meta players want new content/new dungeons as much as the phiw.

Actions speak louder than words. You can say you want it all day, but if the metrics don’t support our claims, words fall flat. Metrics are just numbers yes, but Anet looks at metrics and media, we need whatever it is they pay attention to or look at to say something that plays in our favor.

This doesnt make sense. Pretty much everyone in every top speedrun guild has been asking for new content and more difficulty. And we dont believe theres a problem with the meta in terms of core design. Weve embraced the game for what it is. We just want better content which compliments it.

If anything the anti meta people dont care about new dungeons as much as they dont do them as much. And they would be satisfied with completely revamping the game. But thats getting into broad generalisions. Although i have noticed a very large proportion of aggressive anti meta players have indicated in their posts that they actually barely touch dungeons and fractals and that they focus more on open world and world bosses. Kind of interesting dont you think? Should also point out that they often have flawed arguements based on a lack of knowledge towards dungeon strategies.

What you mean anti meta don’t want new dungeons and content? I want new dungeons can content but not doing the meta, I.E. exploiting AI in a corner (stacking) and spamming 1 in all zerker gear.

If I or anyone else knows every tactic, and how to fight every boss, I or they should be able to fight them normally without issues and kill them just as fast 5/5, with various classes (not 5 warriors), not stacking, and not exploiting the AI.

This is what you all don’t get. We think its cheap and un-intuitive. And it has to end. Period.

I do a dungeon the meta way and I am so bored with it. There is no challenge at all sitting behind a wall with the boss on you.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Was thinking about silverwastes, have to modify my own position;

“Classic Meta” zerker is terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.

Silverwastes is in a lot of ways an inversion of the dungeon meta (excepting guardians who are always handy of course). It’s a brave new world where you can actually end up thinking ‘wow I wish I had more longbow Rangers’.

Except I’m a zerk warrior and I do fine in the silverwastes. I can faceroll up and down with no issues in melee range.

It’s not about gear, but skill.

Indeed, so faceroll one might say it’s…. Too easy?

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

spoj.9672:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I want new explorable dungeon content in our expected framework, those of you of the zerker meta clearly don’t.

Who said those who play the meta don’t want new content?

I’m pretty sure most of the meta players want new content/new dungeons as much as the phiw.

Actions speak louder than words. You can say you want it all day, but if the metrics don’t support our claims, words fall flat. Metrics are just numbers yes, but Anet looks at metrics and media, we need whatever it is they pay attention to or look at to say something that plays in our favor.

This doesnt make sense. Pretty much everyone in every top speedrun guild has been asking for new content and more difficulty. And we dont believe theres a problem with the meta in terms of core design. Weve embraced the game for what it is. We just want better content which compliments it.

If anything the anti meta people dont care about new dungeons as much as they dont do them as much. And they would be satisfied with completely revamping the game. But thats getting into broad generalisions. Although i have noticed a very large proportion of aggressive anti meta players have indicated in their posts that they actually barely touch dungeons and fractals and that they focus more on open world and world bosses. Kind of interesting dont you think? Should also point out that they often have flawed arguements based on a lack of knowledge towards dungeon strategies.

What you mean anti meta don’t want new dungeons and content? I want new dungeons can content but not doing the meta, I.E. exploiting AI in a corner (stacking) and spamming 1 in all zerker gear.

If I or anyone else knows every tactic, and how to fight every boss, I or they should be able to fight them normally without issues and kill them just as fast 5/5, with various classes (not 5 warriors), not stacking, and not exploiting the AI.

This is what you all don’t get. We think its cheap and un-intuitive. And it has to end. Period.

I do a dungeon the meta way and I am so bored with it. There is no challenge at all sitting behind a wall with the boss on you.

I admitted I was getting into broad generalisations. Which isnt fair. Although its kind of ironic coming from someone who thinks reflects are only used for karka.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Was thinking about silverwastes, have to modify my own position;

“Classic Meta” zerker is terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.

Silverwastes is in a lot of ways an inversion of the dungeon meta (excepting guardians who are always handy of course). It’s a brave new world where you can actually end up thinking ‘wow I wish I had more longbow Rangers’.

Except I’m a zerk warrior and I do fine in the silverwastes. I can faceroll up and down with no issues in melee range.

It’s not about gear, but skill.

Admitting I overspoke with the word ‘terrible’, it’s like the dungeon ‘meta’.

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

~~~

It’s kind of a reverse presentation of how people present the ‘dungeon meta’. It’s not quite optimal, but it’s fine. Like you said, player skill is more important than build.

In both places

spoj.9672:

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

spoj.9672:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I want new explorable dungeon content in our expected framework, those of you of the zerker meta clearly don’t.

Who said those who play the meta don’t want new content?

I’m pretty sure most of the meta players want new content/new dungeons as much as the phiw.

Actions speak louder than words. You can say you want it all day, but if the metrics don’t support our claims, words fall flat. Metrics are just numbers yes, but Anet looks at metrics and media, we need whatever it is they pay attention to or look at to say something that plays in our favor.

This doesnt make sense. Pretty much everyone in every top speedrun guild has been asking for new content and more difficulty. And we dont believe theres a problem with the meta in terms of core design. Weve embraced the game for what it is. We just want better content which compliments it.

If anything the anti meta people dont care about new dungeons as much as they dont do them as much. And they would be satisfied with completely revamping the game. But thats getting into broad generalisions. Although i have noticed a very large proportion of aggressive anti meta players have indicated in their posts that they actually barely touch dungeons and fractals and that they focus more on open world and world bosses. Kind of interesting dont you think? Should also point out that they often have flawed arguements based on a lack of knowledge towards dungeon strategies.

What you mean anti meta don’t want new dungeons and content? I want new dungeons can content but not doing the meta, I.E. exploiting AI in a corner (stacking) and spamming 1 in all zerker gear.

If I or anyone else knows every tactic, and how to fight every boss, I or they should be able to fight them normally without issues and kill them just as fast 5/5, with various classes (not 5 warriors), not stacking, and not exploiting the AI.

This is what you all don’t get. We think its cheap and un-intuitive. And it has to end. Period.

I do a dungeon the meta way and I am so bored with it. There is no challenge at all sitting behind a wall with the boss on you.

I admitted I was getting into broad generalisations. Which isnt fair. Although its kind of ironic coming from someone who thinks reflects are only used for karka.

I only know instances of using reflects where I frequent most, and Karka was the hardest foe that came to mind that needed a good reflect to counter. I dodge most projectiles even in low areas.

Reflect was used to block Kohler in AC (yet we just stack behind a wall now and exploit him), I used reflect in pvp/wvw when it was needed. Those nasty foes in Orr with projectile pulls? I got you now kitten! a la Scorpion: “Get over here!”

Forgive me for only giving the most dangerous example.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

spoj.9672:

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

spoj.9672:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I want new explorable dungeon content in our expected framework, those of you of the zerker meta clearly don’t.

Who said those who play the meta don’t want new content?

I’m pretty sure most of the meta players want new content/new dungeons as much as the phiw.

Actions speak louder than words. You can say you want it all day, but if the metrics don’t support our claims, words fall flat. Metrics are just numbers yes, but Anet looks at metrics and media, we need whatever it is they pay attention to or look at to say something that plays in our favor.

This doesnt make sense. Pretty much everyone in every top speedrun guild has been asking for new content and more difficulty. And we dont believe theres a problem with the meta in terms of core design. Weve embraced the game for what it is. We just want better content which compliments it.

If anything the anti meta people dont care about new dungeons as much as they dont do them as much. And they would be satisfied with completely revamping the game. But thats getting into broad generalisions. Although i have noticed a very large proportion of aggressive anti meta players have indicated in their posts that they actually barely touch dungeons and fractals and that they focus more on open world and world bosses. Kind of interesting dont you think? Should also point out that they often have flawed arguements based on a lack of knowledge towards dungeon strategies.

What you mean anti meta don’t want new dungeons and content? I want new dungeons can content but not doing the meta, I.E. exploiting AI in a corner (stacking) and spamming 1 in all zerker gear.

If I or anyone else knows every tactic, and how to fight every boss, I or they should be able to fight them normally without issues and kill them just as fast 5/5, with various classes (not 5 warriors), not stacking, and not exploiting the AI.

This is what you all don’t get. We think its cheap and un-intuitive. And it has to end. Period.

I do a dungeon the meta way and I am so bored with it. There is no challenge at all sitting behind a wall with the boss on you.

I admitted I was getting into broad generalisations. Which isnt fair. Although its kind of ironic coming from someone who thinks reflects are only used for karka.

I only know instances of using reflects where I frequent most, and Karka was the hardest foe that came to mind that needed a good reflect to counter. I dodge most projectiles even in low areas.

Reflect was used to block Kohler in AC (yet we just stack behind a wall now and exploit him), I used reflect in pvp/wvw when it was needed. Those nasty foes in Orr with projectile pulls? I got you now kitten! a la Scorpion: “Get over here!”

Forgive me for only giving the most dangerous example.

You’re just proving my unfair generalisation further. It shows you dont do fractals, you dont do most dungeons and you spend most of your time in open world. Which means you really dont have much ground to argue against the meta when you dont really know anything about it.

Windsagio.1340:

You came at this from a OMG DEFEND ZERK position not a ’response position still;

1) Enjoy that tetragrypth that blindsided you with a chain knockdown charge and killed you in 2 bounces. Fragile melee is fragile and in melee, there are things in SW that make that tough.

2) You don’t have that many dodges. You can kill small groups and skulk around the edges, but zerk melee tends to end up just another body when the kitten gets real. Like I said, it’s still great for the escorts.

3) But everything dies from conditions, and you’re most likely not having your conditions being overwritten by other players. You don’t seem to be entirely clear on how the problems with conditions work.

4) Well sure, if you have mass numbers to cover all approaches and at the same time don’t overscale the event.

~~~

Like I said, it’s fine in escorts (depending on the spread of opponents) but breaks down in fort actions, there’s too much chaos to predictably mitigate.

Some versions are also problematic in some of the bosses

No, I don’t need to DEFEND ZERK. OMG! I just wanted to point out, that what you are trying to say is just not true.
1) A tip: immobilising and CCing helps. They are no kind of evil black magic.
2) See 1).
3) What a general statement. Everything dies from direct damage, too…..
4) You need about 5 people per fort. That’s it.