Being pretty consistently abusive there, Dave <>
I’m more of a messenger than anything else. Perhaps I may come off as arrogant and condescending, and you can certainly choose to have that perception.
What I’m saying is twofold:
I’m more of a messenger than anything else.
Hardly a message since you’re arguing a moot point.
- Don’t try to threaten us with anything (trinity, etc.), because we will adapt to the changes much faster than the rest of you, and we’ll rightfully and justifiably exclude you until you catch back up.
Well I suppose you win then, wouldn’t want you to go adapting at me. Let’s just hope NC Soft keeps your playgrounds alive. If not the strong community sure would pitch together to keep the game going!
I like waiting for the fifth for a dungeon run where they can run the meta.
Usually we’re already be almost complete through the first path with 4 people – (in roughly the same time with meta players -4 peeps almost = 5) and the fifth is a bonus for the additional paths.It’s not like meta teams don’t start there run with four players (sometimes) less and we just get going and leave the LFG up.
Besides it’s good to meet fellow like minded individuals for later paths and future runs.
That’s not waiting, that’s 4-manning it. I’d agree, tackling a dungeon undermanned is far better than waiting around for a slow filling team to form. But i doubt the person I quoted had that in mind.
More referring to the personal attacks on Leo, but still;
on those points:
1) It’s still annoying, especially if there’s a suspicion (true or false) that it’s undeserved elitism.
2) Umm, kitten . Don’t think anyones threatennig you (as a group especially), and you’re honestly not making a good case, especially compared to your first point.
Still, attitude aside, I’d describe point 2 as ‘technically right but unfortunate’. The eagerness with which an exclusionary attitude is embraced is the real problem behind the ‘zerker meta’, but you’re right— people would just find something else.
2) Umm, kitten . Don’t think anyones threatennig you (as a group especially), and you’re honestly not making a good case, especially compared to your first point.
This was a reference to Leo’s “sit the kitten down and embrace a hard trinity” to spoj (which you conveniently ignored while calling out me for personal attacks—aside from my directness, I don’t see where I said something more objectionable than that).
Still, attitude aside, I’d describe point 2 as ‘technically right but unfortunate’. The eagerness with which an exclusionary attitude is embraced is the real problem behind the ‘zerker meta’, but you’re right— people would just find something else.
If what I said is “technically right” I’m not sure why it wasn’t a good case then. I’m honestly not all that elitist in game myself, but I fully respect and defend the right of any group to filter as much as they want (or feel they need) for whatever they want.
(edited by Dave.2536)
“How dare you enforce your play style on me, you must play how I want!!!”
That’s all I’m reading here this last page or so.
Leo, give soloing Lupi in zerk gear a try and maybe you’ll understand why people are calling that video faceroll. Sure that’s an exaggeration but the point is there, it’s much easier and much more forgiving to the point that I’m honestly impressed by how well it worked.
2) Umm, kitten . Don’t think anyones threatennig you (as a group especially), and you’re honestly not making a good case, especially compared to your first point.
This was a reference to Leo’s “sit the kitten down and embrace a hard trinity” to spoj (which you conveniently ignored while calling out me for personal attacks—aside from my directness, I don’t see where I said something more objectionable than that).
Still, attitude aside, I’d describe point 2 as ‘technically right but unfortunate’. The eagerness with which an exclusionary attitude is embraced is the real problem behind the ‘zerker meta’, but you’re right— people would just find something else.
If what I said is “technically right” I’m not sure why it wasn’t a good case then. I’m honestly not all that elitist in game myself, but I fully respect and defend the right of any group to filter as much as they want (or feel they need) for whatever they want.
It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P
It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P
This “worse problem” (that there has been and always will be meta, elitism, and exclusion in this game) has always been in the game and is not a “reply” to anything or any problem.
It’s simply “baggage” that any solution change to the current “problem” status quo must overcome in a better way than the status quo already does right now.
If anything, it’s just a shift from naivety and idealism back to reality.
This was a reference to Leo’s “sit the kitten down and embrace a hard trinity” to spoj (which you conveniently ignored while calling out me for personal attacks—aside from my directness, I don’t see where I said something more objectionable than that).
Because that was sensationalistic exaggeration. You just choose to take it as me attacking someone to enforce a gameplay change when in fact I was drawing parallels between the two (that being waiting to form a complete meta group and the extreme case of waiting to form a holy trinity group).
I didn’t think I’d have to explain it though. But yeah, I’m not advocating for strict trinity. At least I’m advocating change, be it the build system balance, additions to it like more skills or weapons, change to core dungeon design, something other than new content which should be a given. At most, I’m advocating discussion so people openly talk about what they’d find fun as additions to the game.
“How dare you enforce your play style on me, you must play how I want!!!”
That’s all I’m reading here this last page or so.
Leo, give soloing Lupi in zerk gear a try and maybe you’ll understand why people are calling that video faceroll. Sure that’s an exaggeration but the point is there, it’s much easier and much more forgiving to the point that I’m honestly impressed by how well it worked.
You act like I’ve never faced Lupicus with glass gear before. I’ve just not solo’ed him in any attempt. All I was saying is, the person I quoted must have a different definition of ‘faceroll’ than most.
At least I’m advocating change
You’re talking to someone who’s been following the recent “change” in PvP. Feel free to look at that forum to see the aftermath of that “feature”.
Change itself is not necessarily a good thing. The only time change should happen for the sake of change is when things can’t get any worse. At least in regards to the current issue of elitism and exclusion, the reality is that things can’t get much better than what GW2 has.
Here’s a comparison of the challenges GW2 and some other MMO faces
Most MMOs:
GW2:
A lot of pages of hate, but just wanted to throw one item out that stood out to me.
Contrary to popular belief, non zerker players don’t necessarily want to face tank and not dodge. Yes it’s true, they want to utilize the game mechanics and avoid big insta kill hits too!
They just want more flexibility in wearing different gear than zerker to feel like they have something their own in a style they enjoy, while still being effective.
anti-meta player assume zerker players are elitist and self centered.
meta players assume anti-meta are unskilled and again self centered.
Everyone is shouting about what they think and not listening to what the other person thinks. It is worse than those “news” talk shows, where everyone has an opinion they are trying to shout out loudest.
BTW, I run meta. Because mechanics at the moment make everything else inferior in pve. There is a meta for wvw and pvp, and it is not always zerker.
I do, however, theory craft a lot to try to find my own flavor of the meta so I can feel like a special snow flake and that I am involved in my character choices.
I think everyone acknowledges that PvE favors zerker stats because of the insta gib mechanics and high health pools of the mobs, while they have simplistic fight patterns.
What frustrates anti-meta players is “why put in all this armor if we are never going to use it?”.
(edited by CMF.5461)
Haven’t read your post yet but I noticed the part you quoted.
I’m posting from my phone so grammar mistakes and auto correct sometimes screw me.
That part you quoted is meant to be “At the least, I’m advocating change” while at the most I’m advocating discussion about change.
“How dare you enforce your play style on me, you must play how I want!!!”
That’s all I’m reading here this last page or so.
Leo, give soloing Lupi in zerk gear a try and maybe you’ll understand why people are calling that video faceroll. Sure that’s an exaggeration but the point is there, it’s much easier and much more forgiving to the point that I’m honestly impressed by how well it worked.
You act like I’ve never faced Lupicus with glass gear before. I’ve just not solo’ed him in any attempt. All I was saying is, the person I quoted must have a different definition of ‘faceroll’ than most.
Again, go and do some solo attempts, faceroll is an exaggeration but it’s not that far off.
It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P
This “worse problem” (that there has been and always will be meta, elitism, and exclusion in this game) has always been in the game and is not a “reply” to anything or any problem.
It’s simply “baggage” that any
solutionchange to thecurrent “problem”status quo must overcome in a better way than the status quo already does right now.If anything, it’s just a shift from naivety and idealism back to reality.
Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.
So then, it ends up being exclusion for exclusion, which you’re absolutely embracing.
And therein lies the problem. Maybe we can’t fix human nature, but it’s worth at least trying.
This was a reference to Leo’s “sit the kitten down and embrace a hard trinity” to spoj (which you conveniently ignored while calling out me for personal attacks—aside from my directness, I don’t see where I said something more objectionable than that).
Because that was sensationalistic exaggeration. You just choose to take it as me attacking someone to enforce a gameplay change when in fact I was drawing parallels between the two (that being waiting to form a complete meta group and the extreme case of waiting to form a holy trinity group).
I didn’t think I’d have to explain it though. But yeah, I’m not advocating for strict trinity. At least I’m advocating change, be it the build system balance, additions to it like more skills or weapons, change to core dungeon design, something other than new content which should be a given. At most, I’m advocating discussion so people openly talk about what they’d find fun as additions to the game.
Change shouldn’t occur for the sake of change, though.
Did they mean for a lot of PvE content to use the same gear and build as the optimum build? Possibly. Means casuals don’t have to obtain multiple different sets of gear and remember different builds to do a variety of content. At most 3. One for PvE, one for PvP, and one for WvW. And that’s only if they desire to run the meta in all parts of the game.
But possibly not. It means that for groups that want to go as fast as possible, it means they’ll only take those that meet the meta. Which means there’s a risk of kicking and at least perceived if not actual elitism. And if all builds were supposed to be equal, what was the point in multiple different stat combinations?
Do we as players know if only one build being meta for most areas is intended or not? No. And there is evidence to support both sides. ANet hasn’t really done much to make more builds optimum. However, the new content seems to at least up the risk of running zerker.
It would be nice however if Control and Support got a boost in usefulness, but not at the expense of zerker builds being trashed. Where if they got a Control or Support person or two in their group instead of a DPS person it wouldn’t affect how fast a speed run would take by more than a minute or two (where all but the groups literally seeing how fast they could go would be happy taking a Control or a Support oriented build on).
The only issue I personally have with the meta is with the extremists. The Pro-Meta people who claim you’re a bad player if you don’t play the meta with perfect rotations, etc etc. And the Anti-Meta PHIW players who are hypocritical and throw hissy fits over players who follow the meta and want to play with others who follow the meta. And unfortunately, ANet can’t fix that problem as it will always exist. There will always be players who try to force others to play how they want to play.
A lot of pages of hate, but just wanted to throw one item out that stood out to me.
Contrary to popular belief, non zerker players don’t necessarily want to face tank and not dodge. Yes it’s true, they want to utilize the game mechanics and avoid big insta kill hits too!
They just want more flexibility in wearing different gear than zerker to feel like they have something their own in a style they enjoy, while still being effective.
Totally agree.
I’m square in that boat. . . Kind of. I’d like more flexibility if only because the builds feel far too similar in PvE. At most, it’s debatable to use greatsword or staff or sword on my mesmer, the other weapons are mostly abysmal, at most working as a utility. Cooldowns on pistol is bad and torch is just ~snerk~… That all the skills are capsulized means limited mix&matching, utilities don’t really make a build since you just swap em around when needed, and most traits are minimalistic in what they do for your character (some sigils seem more impactful) that the amount of fun I get (emphasis there) is limited. Some sigils have been changed as well as some traits added but more can definitely be done.
Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.
Silly is a subjective word, and unless the gain is exactly zero I don’t think you get to be the sole authority and set the threshold for what is or isn’t trivial.
Back on point, though: we’re profiling. Asking for “zerker meta” is more likely to get us a player who knows the encounter, knows how to use combo fields, has gear specced for optimal DPS, has utilities and traits beneficial to the group (or at least a player with a few of these things).
I’m not even sure you can keep a serious face while telling me that a group of “CoE P2 all welcome” will finish in about the same time as “CoE P2 experienced please”, and even “CoE P2 meta zerker ping gear”.
And if it turns out that we did get a troll who joined without meeting our requirements in LFG, then we’d be justified in retaliation up to and including kicking him at the last boss because he was never legitimately a member of our group.
“How dare you enforce your play style on me, you must play how I want!!!”
That’s all I’m reading here this last page or so.
Leo, give soloing Lupi in zerk gear a try and maybe you’ll understand why people are calling that video faceroll. Sure that’s an exaggeration but the point is there, it’s much easier and much more forgiving to the point that I’m honestly impressed by how well it worked.
You act like I’ve never faced Lupicus with glass gear before. I’ve just not solo’ed him in any attempt. All I was saying is, the person I quoted must have a different definition of ‘faceroll’ than most.
Again, go and do some solo attempts, faceroll is an exaggeration but it’s not that far off.
Lol I haven’t played gw2 in nearly 2 months and before that I took like a 10 month break and in about a month and a half I’m getting deployed for another 9 months. You’ll have to give me something more than Lupicus solo attempts to get me back. . .
But by the way people talk about change, I should expect the same game with maybe a pair of maps added when I get back? Not looking good.
Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.
Silly is a subjective word, and unless the gain is exactly zero I don’t think you get to be the sole authority and set the threshold for what is or isn’t trivial.
Back on point, though: we’re profiling. Asking for “zerker meta” is more likely to get us a player who knows the encounter, knows how to use combo fields, has gear specced for optimal DPS, has utilities and traits beneficial to the group (or at least a player with a few of these things).
I’m not even sure you can keep a serious face while telling me that a group of “CoE P2 all welcome” will finish in about the same time as “CoE P2 experienced please”, and even “CoE P2 meta zerker ping gear”.
And if it turns out that we did get a troll who joined without meeting our requirements in LFG, then we’d be justified in retaliation up to and including kicking him at the last boss because he was never legitimately a member of our group.
It’s the internet, of course I get to say :p
I think the profiling thing is spot on, except it’s not a great profiling tool, and for most runs you don’t need to profile… except people think they do. It’s this self-fulfilling and self-defeating act that people just go with, and it’s harmful.
The zerk meta is a classic false meta because it’s mainly there because we say it’s there. Pug dungeon runs aren’t competitive (which drives pvp and raiding metas) and the content isn’t so hard that meta builds are even remotely required.
Lol I haven’t played gw2 in nearly 2 months and before that I took like a 10 month break and in about a month and a half I’m getting deployed for another 9 months. You’ll have to give me something more than Lupicus solo attempts to get me back. . .
But by the way people talk about change, I should expect the same game with maybe a pair of maps added when I get back? Not looking good.
Maybe this isn’t the right game for you anymore then. There’s nothing wrong with that.
I do agree that the game has been getting stale. I’m happy to discuss changes, but anything implemented should have to be very thoroughly thought out and discussed. But for anyone who wants to reduce exclusion and elitism in this game, remember that there will always be a balance between inclusive content and challenging content.
This could very well explain why our more recent updates (Pavilion, Mad King’s Labyrinth, Dry Top, Silverwastes) have tended to be loot pinata trains.
It’s the internet, of course I get to say :p
That’s all I wanted from you, an admission that you were applying the term subjectively rather than objectively.
I think the profiling thing is spot on, except it’s not a great profiling tool, and for most runs you don’t need to profile… except people think they do. It’s this self-fulfilling and self-defeating act that people just go with, and it’s harmful.
There’s a subtle key here. When I make a group “CoE P1 zerker meta” I’m not naive enough to think that everyone who joins my group will be running zerker meta stuff. I’m looking for someone who’s confident enough to join me despite those requirements.
Even if that player isn’t running zerker, he’s almost certainly going to be proficient enough at whatever he is doing that I will hopefully not be able to tell the difference. These kinds of people will be the least risky as far as wiping or having to (re)explain an encounter.
For everyone else, there are always other groups, or they can make their own. After all, initiative in this game is available to everyone and only requires that we abandon our hesitation and social anxiety.
Lol I haven’t played gw2 in nearly 2 months and before that I took like a 10 month break and in about a month and a half I’m getting deployed for another 9 months. You’ll have to give me something more than Lupicus solo attempts to get me back. . .
But by the way people talk about change, I should expect the same game with maybe a pair of maps added when I get back? Not looking good.
Maybe this isn’t the right game for you anymore then. There’s nothing wrong with that.
I do agree that the game has been getting stale. I’m happy to discuss changes, but anything implemented should have to be very thoroughly thought out and discussed. But for anyone who wants to reduce exclusion and elitism in this game, remember that there will always be a balance between inclusive content and challenging content.
This could very well explain why our more recent updates (Pavilion, Mad King’s Labyrinth, Dry Top, Silverwastes) have tended to be loot pinata trains.
Lol well I’m not one of those brand allegiance types that has to side by something or abandon it for a superior brand. I bought gw2 so I get the right to play it when I want barring the change account models. I am one to retain myself though. For anet to spice it up for me to play more, all they’d have to do is add Tengu. Not only have I got to make a Tengu ranger and any race I fancy always ends up as a warrior on my roster, but I’ve played approx 2% as a necromancer and I really want to play one. . . As cliché as a crow necro is, I’m waiting on it. That’s 3 new characters for me so likely at least 150 hours of play.
I’m not adverse to waiting, just make some worthwhile use of the time is all I care.
It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P
This “worse problem” (that there has been and always will be meta, elitism, and exclusion in this game) has always been in the game and is not a “reply” to anything or any problem.
It’s simply “baggage” that any
solutionchange to thecurrent “problem”status quo must overcome in a better way than the status quo already does right now.If anything, it’s just a shift from naivety and idealism back to reality.
Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.
So then, it ends up being exclusion for exclusion, which you’re absolutely embracing.
And therein lies the problem. Maybe we can’t fix human nature, but it’s worth at least trying.
Did I not post a time calculation a few pages ago pointing out that it’s not the case of " so little to gain" ? I’m sure 15 minutes per day are nothing to you but they’re a lot to me.
Also excluding players that aren’t like me from runs I like to do is not wrong in itself. If they want to run with me or people like me they should make themselves like me. If they don’t want that they can steer clear and run with whomever they want.
Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.
Silly is a subjective word, and unless the gain is exactly zero I don’t think you get to be the sole authority and set the threshold for what is or isn’t trivial.
Back on point, though: we’re profiling. Asking for “zerker meta” is more likely to get us a player who knows the encounter, knows how to use combo fields, has gear specced for optimal DPS, has utilities and traits beneficial to the group (or at least a player with a few of these things).
I’m not even sure you can keep a serious face while telling me that a group of “CoE P2 all welcome” will finish in about the same time as “CoE P2 experienced please”, and even “CoE P2 meta zerker ping gear”.
And if it turns out that we did get a troll who joined without meeting our requirements in LFG, then we’d be justified in retaliation up to and including kicking him at the last boss because he was never legitimately a member of our group.
It’s the internet, of course I get to say :p
I think the profiling thing is spot on, except it’s not a great profiling tool, and for most runs you don’t need to profile… except people think they do. It’s this self-fulfilling and self-defeating act that people just go with, and it’s harmful.
The zerk meta is a classic false meta because it’s mainly there because we say it’s there. Pug dungeon runs aren’t competitive (which drives pvp and raiding metas) and the content isn’t so hard that meta builds are even remotely required.
“The zerk meta is a classic false meta” – this is a blatant lie.
I’ve been recently trying to finish my CM collection ( done yesterday) and have been doing CM for quite a bit.
Did P3 yesterday with a “no requirements, no stress, no zerker” group just to see what it’s like.
It too 18 minutes for a p3 of CM. Good players will know what that means.
Nobody went afk and the lowest AP was 7 k or something which meant people at least weren’t new to the game.
Had I gone with a meta full zerker PUG group we’d have been done in less than 9 minutes.
That’s 9 minutes of my life wasted because people want to “play how I want”.
So no – it’s not a made up concept.
An average of 8 minutes extra per dungeon run if you do 5-6 dungeons does matter. You could watch a TV show in the extra time it will take because of non-meta people.
I don’t see the big deal with the “meta”. Without the trinity of tanks and healers, the only role is DPS. Berzerker stats feeds directly into that mold of MORE damage. I don’t do dungeons often, but when I do, It will be with four other glass cannons. I don’t think of it as elitist because I don’t expect you to be a good player just because of the gear you wear, but I do expect you to fill a role, which is DPS.
Remember one thing?
Berserker gear was and always has been designed to be the optimal gear set !
But to play this you need to use active defences and dodges.
This was stated by the ANET Developers on multiple occasions.
This was stated at release, re confirmed when they did the critical damage nerf into ferocity. Celestial gear was nerfed into the ground !
You seem to want a different meta (you don’t state what) and a game designed around how you want to play.
I will play the game as designed – if they change the optimal gear set – I assure you the semi-hardcore or hardcore will be the first to adapt and a new meta will be born.
The people it hurts most is the casual crew who have managed to gear up one or two
characters in zerker and understand how to play these classes properly after 2 years – it’s likely to take them a long time to adapt as they don’t have much time to dedicate to playing the game. At most they probably get 1-2 hrs top a night to play this game (or even less).
So change for changes sake is worthless, meaningless and hurts the majority of the player base to this game – eg Casuals.
In addition:
The GW2 CDI raid thread was threatened to be closed down as people argued about gear and the zerker set being optimal. (It’s highly likely that if the content is too hard the semi-hardcore will learn in a non-zerker set then quickly move to zerker once they understand the boss mechanics etc. [Thats only IF they find it too hard]).
Don’t believe me – go read it again !
This game was designed for party content to be optimal with zerker and good team composition. Zerker is only one part of that equation.
Change for changes sake is meaningless – without considering the high impact it will have on the playerbase who are playing the game as designed.
These players are not elitist asking for people to play the game as designed!
Now they really could be elitist and demand you prove that you have a video of running a dungeon solo in 9mins or less (AC P1), solo map trinn (lvl 50) before joining a Coe dungeon run. There are groups that exist like this – but that is honestly not a bad thing either. They play there way to further push there skills and design optimal meta builds which eventually filter down to the rest of the community.
The play it my way – don’t understand the mechanics, boss tells (when to dodge) – the importance of team composition and how traits should be optimised for a team group.
Asking for a fire field I have been met with **** off and instant rage quits or an ice bow! changing banners on a warrior is sometimes met with the same reaction to make a run go smoother. This often makes runs very difficult time consuming and stressful. The problem with play it my way – is it’s extremely selfish not to balance the party and team composition to make a run easier and smoother.
I know which group I would be in any day of the week.
(edited by TPMN.1483)
I don’t understand how you can spend 20 pages talking about a problem that simply does not exist.
I am playing this games pve in every gear and class I wish, since launch and I never had problems finding friendly player who accept me. And I didn’t even had a guild. The build diversity in this game is insane. Want to do the hardest dungeon in the game with 5 glass cannons? No problem. Want to do it with 5 bunker? No problem. Want to do it with two Mesmer and three thieves? Five necros? No frigging problem. And most of the community is great. Sure, there are people who have different oppinions and goals than you, but if you have an issue with that, a MMORPG is maybe not the right thing for you. Come to think of it, reallity might not be the right thing for you, too…
So please, enlighten me: Where is the issue? Because either I am the most lucky guy in the whole wide world or you are all doing it wrong!
You act like I’ve never faced Lupicus with glass gear before. I’ve just not solo’ed him in any attempt. All I was saying is, the person I quoted must have a different definition of ‘faceroll’ than most.
Look… we might have different understandings of what the expression “faceroll” means (to me it means “to be able complete content without putting any/much effort into it”), but that wasn´t the point I tried to make at all.
I linked the video because Azhure claimed that using glass cannon gear yields almost no risk in dungeons, totally disregarding the fact that using more defensive gear is even less riskier (you practically can´t die, no matter what, hence my usage of the term “faceroll”).
Since you apparently have experience fighting Lupi , you should understand that the guy in the video would´ve been dead after eating the second kick (about 1 min. in), if he´d been using Zerker gear.
The argument “Zerker is bad, because low-risk/high-reward” is trash. It is simply untrue and disregards factors such as relative survivability in comparison to more defensive stat sets, player skill, familiarity with encounters and so on and so forth.
That´s the point I wanted to make in the post you were referring to.
I said it in a different thread and I´ll repeat it here.
GW2 has mostly content problems, not stat-balance problems, when it comes to dungeons (repeatable, instanced, group based, PvE content).
In the end, it doesn´t matter anyways, because a-net made it clear in the past:
They. do. not. give. a kitten. about. dungeons.
So can we please stop having useless discussions like this every week, yes? They make my eyes bleed…
Did P3 yesterday with a “no requirements, no stress, no zerker” group just to see what it’s like.
It too 18 minutes for a p3 of CM. Good players will know what that means.
Nobody went afk and the lowest AP was 7 k or something which meant people at least weren’t new to the game.
Had I gone with a meta full zerker PUG group we’d have been done in less than 9 minutes.
That’s 9 minutes of my life wasted because people want to “play how I want”.
So no – it’s not a made up concept.
An average of 8 minutes extra per dungeon run if you do 5-6 dungeons does matter. You could watch a TV show in the extra time it will take because of non-meta people.
18 min sounds healthy and reasonable.
The other option I didn’t see you explore: could you have just run fewer dungeons that day? If you only allot yourself an hour of dungeon runs a day and 2 took 20min, couldn’t you just run fewer dungeons?
Lol, you normally take 18 minutes for a full run of CM
18 minute for cm is reasonable and healthy?.. in a full group?.. wut. My solo times where i screw up and die is about as fast as that LOL.. a full group that actually use proper tactic and setup can finish a cm path in under 5 minutes.
I finish all 3 CM path in 18 min… with 4 people.
How can you say just path 3 in 18 minutes is healthy and reasonable LOL.
Look… we might have different understandings of what the expression “faceroll” means
The end. That’s all that had to be said because that’s the only part I disputed. I said it didn’t look like a faceroll which is simple spamming of keys. It also didn’t look like he couldn’t die as several times he was knocked to under 50%. Having sustain to quickly come back from such a setback should simply be seen as a different means dealing with fights, which it is yet isn’t seen that way by most?
Since you apparently have experience fighting Lupi , you should understand that the guy in the video would´ve been dead after eating the second kick (about 1 min. in), if he´d been using Zerker gear.
The argument “Zerker is bad, because low-risk/high-reward” is trash. It is simply untrue and disregards factors such as relative survivability in comparison to more defensive stat sets, player skill, familiarity with encounters and so on and so forth.
That´s the point I wanted to make in the post you were referring to.
I’m too lazy to go back and check the post of the guy you’re talking about but I’m going to assume the guy was talking about groups, not solo. If not, either approaches run their own risks. I guess you’ll make the same mistake as the person you’re arguing with and just generalize about things from a single perspective and say “no, there is absolutely no risk in running defensive stats” which will incite another argument as people run to collect evidence of the contrary.
GW2 has mostly content problems, not stat-balance problems, when it comes to dungeons (repeatable, instanced, group based, PvE content).
In the end, it doesn´t matter anyways, because a-net made it clear in the past:
They. do. not. give. a kitten. about. dungeons.
I’m going to give you and the others who find this the sole issue another perspective. So the problem is content. So the solution is to add more content, but not just more content, it needs to be varied. First off, what kind of variation? And don’t simply default to “weak to conditions” or “attacking faster”. That’s only one real variation. With this new varied content, how long do you think it’d take to get in the ballpark of trivializing them too? People say that the old content is easy because it’s old which is only half the story. When we played at release, these weren’t kittenly because we lacked understanding of the content but also because we lacked understanding of the underlying game mechanics and how everything fit together (or phrased differently, the metagame). New content only changes one of the variables (unless someone had a bright idea on how to vary content beyond the scope I’m talking about) resulting in content never truly being hard, just unfair.
Long statements shortened, if content is the issue, what’s stopping the players from conquering that content easier and faster? And if the content is harder, you think you deserve higher rewards for simply defeating it the same way as before?
So can we please stop having useless discussions like this every week, yes? They make my eyes bleed…
That sounds like a personal problem, guy. No one’s forcing you to write or post here.
(edited by Leo G.4501)
18 minute for cm is reasonable and healthy?.. in a full group?.. wut. My solo times where i screw up and die is about as fast as that LOL.. a full group that actually use proper tactic and setup can finish a cm path in under 5 minutes.
Because it is a game. Expecting a dungeon in a game (much less, an mmo?) to burn around 20min of time is reasonable.
I ask you this, would you want the devs to, in the future, design all dungeons to be completely in only 10 min or less? Do you know how easy that would be to demolish? And do you honestly think you should be guaranteed a decent reward for that?
You realise the short dungeon times were designed for those with limited time for a play session?
Many of them are short deliberately.
18 minute for cm is reasonable and healthy?.. in a full group?.. wut. My solo times where i screw up and die is about as fast as that LOL.. a full group that actually use proper tactic and setup can finish a cm path in under 5 minutes.
Because it is a game. Expecting a dungeon in a game (much less, an mmo?) to burn around 20min of time is reasonable.
I ask you this, would you want the devs to, in the future, design all dungeons to be completely in only 10 min or less? Do you know how easy that would be to demolish? And do you honestly think you should be guaranteed a decent reward for that?
cm was designed to be an easy dungeon, ofc finishing it in under 5 minutes if people utilized proper strategy is much more reasonable than 20 minutes. We already have arah which is done in 15-20 minutes if everyone is full zerk and executes the run well. When a pug group takes 18 minute to finish cm path, it is quite embarrassing tbh.
You realise the short dungeon times were designed for those with limited time for a play session?
Many of them are short deliberately.
You speak as if you designed those dungeons yourself. Which one did your team design?
PS: 20min is short. When I had limited my playtime to around 45min, I could definitely finish a dungeon, if not multiple paths in a PuG.
(edited by Leo G.4501)
The devs did actually expect dungeons to take about 20 mins at release. Dungeons have been there for over 2 years and that expected time was probably with clearing most trash groups in mind. But at this stage thats a pretty pathetic and irritating time for experienced players. Its not fun taking twice as long as it needs to for no reason. When you have gone 5 minutes or so on a path. It becomes desirable to do so in the future. Going fast adds a new dimension to the experience.
18 minute for cm is reasonable and healthy?.. in a full group?.. wut. My solo times where i screw up and die is about as fast as that LOL.. a full group that actually use proper tactic and setup can finish a cm path in under 5 minutes.
Because it is a game. Expecting a dungeon in a game (much less, an mmo?) to burn around 20min of time is reasonable.
I ask you this, would you want the devs to, in the future, design all dungeons to be completely in only 10 min or less? Do you know how easy that would be to demolish? And do you honestly think you should be guaranteed a decent reward for that?
cm was designed to be an easy dungeon, ofc finishing it in under 5 minutes if people utilized proper strategy is much more reasonable than 20 minutes. We already have arah which is done in 15-20 minutes if everyone is full zerk and executes the run well. When a pug group takes 18 minute to finish cm path, it is quite embarrassing tbh.
Oh were you on Artemis’ design team that helped make those dungeons?
The devs did actually expect dungeons to take about 20 mins at release. Dungeons have been there for over 2 years and that expected time was probably with clearing most trash groups in mind. But at this stage thats a pretty pathetic and irritating time for experienced players. Its not fun taking twice as long as it needs to for no reason. When you have gone 5 minutes or so on a path. It becomes desirable to do so in the future. Going fast adds a new dimension to the experience.
That is one perspective.
Another is, if I am to spend 45 min a day running dungeons, I’d rather play the dungeon rather than needing to run half a dozen of them for the same fun.
I’m waiting for someone to say the magic word though. . .
The devs did actually expect dungeons to take about 20 mins at release. Dungeons have been there for over 2 years and that expected time was probably with clearing most trash groups in mind. But at this stage thats a pretty pathetic and irritating time for experienced players. Its not fun taking twice as long as it needs to for no reason. When you have gone 5 minutes or so on a path. It becomes desirable to do so in the future. Going fast adds a new dimension to the experience.
That is one perspective.
Another is, if I am to spend 45 min a day running dungeons, I’d rather play the dungeon rather than needing to run half a dozen of them for the same fun.
I’m waiting for someone to say the magic word though. . .
Yes its one perspective. And its a perfectly valid opinion to have. I dont know why you are argueing. Trying to descredit someone because they think 18 minutes is too long is stupid. Why cant you just accept people have different values when playing?
(edited by spoj.9672)
The devs did actually expect dungeons to take about 20 mins at release. Dungeons have been there for over 2 years and that expected time was probably with clearing most trash groups in mind. But at this stage thats a pretty pathetic and irritating time for experienced players. Its not fun taking twice as long as it needs to for no reason. When you have gone 5 minutes or so on a path. It becomes desirable to do so in the future. Going fast adds a new dimension to the experience.
That is one perspective.
Another is, if I am to spend 45 min a day running dungeons, I’d rather play the dungeon rather than needing to run half a dozen of them for the same fun.
I’m waiting for someone to say the magic word though. . .
Yes its one perspective. And its a perfectly valid opinion to have. I dont know why you are argueing.
Did I argue? I said it was a perspective, not wrong or right.
Why are you being defensive?
The devs did actually expect dungeons to take about 20 mins at release. Dungeons have been there for over 2 years and that expected time was probably with clearing most trash groups in mind. But at this stage thats a pretty pathetic and irritating time for experienced players. Its not fun taking twice as long as it needs to for no reason. When you have gone 5 minutes or so on a path. It becomes desirable to do so in the future. Going fast adds a new dimension to the experience.
That is one perspective.
Another is, if I am to spend 45 min a day running dungeons, I’d rather play the dungeon rather than needing to run half a dozen of them for the same fun.
I’m waiting for someone to say the magic word though. . .
Yes its one perspective. And its a perfectly valid opinion to have. I dont know why you are argueing.
Did I argue? I said it was a perspective, not wrong or right.
Why are you being defensive?
If you are not argueing why are you responding?
The devs did actually expect dungeons to take about 20 mins at release. Dungeons have been there for over 2 years and that expected time was probably with clearing most trash groups in mind. But at this stage thats a pretty pathetic and irritating time for experienced players. Its not fun taking twice as long as it needs to for no reason. When you have gone 5 minutes or so on a path. It becomes desirable to do so in the future. Going fast adds a new dimension to the experience.
That is one perspective.
Another is, if I am to spend 45 min a day running dungeons, I’d rather play the dungeon rather than needing to run half a dozen of them for the same fun.
I’m waiting for someone to say the magic word though. . .
Yes its one perspective. And its a perfectly valid opinion to have. I dont know why you are argueing.
Did I argue? I said it was a perspective, not wrong or right.
Why are you being defensive?
If you are not argueing why are you responding?
I’m not like you. I like discussions of change which is why I asked questions about content. If you feel I am being hostile, I assure you I’m not despite the sort of reception my viewpoint seems to make with some posters.
Due to the fact that best mitigation in this game is evasion the only way to force an end to zerk meta is to make fights where mobs auto hit with some of their attacks and it can’t be evaded or nerf endurance regen by a lot to where you can’t reliably evade most attacks which would force people to spec for more defense.
This would not be a good thing as it would just make for even more “elitism” and narrow the scope of builds acceptable for a lot of dungeons.
My personal cost to benefit analysis is that the current system while flawed is still far better than a system in which a nerf to the zerk meta would result in.
The devs did actually expect dungeons to take about 20 mins at release. Dungeons have been there for over 2 years and that expected time was probably with clearing most trash groups in mind. But at this stage thats a pretty pathetic and irritating time for experienced players. Its not fun taking twice as long as it needs to for no reason. When you have gone 5 minutes or so on a path. It becomes desirable to do so in the future. Going fast adds a new dimension to the experience.
That is one perspective.
Another is, if I am to spend 45 min a day running dungeons, I’d rather play the dungeon rather than needing to run half a dozen of them for the same fun.
I’m waiting for someone to say the magic word though. . .
Yes its one perspective. And its a perfectly valid opinion to have. I dont know why you are argueing.
Did I argue? I said it was a perspective, not wrong or right.
Why are you being defensive?
If you are not argueing why are you responding?
I’m not like you. I like discussions of change which is why I asked questions about content. If you feel I am being hostile, I assure you I’m not despite the sort of reception my viewpoint seems to make with some posters.
A discussion is an exchange of ideas and arguements. Bringing up totally irrelevant perspectives to change the subject and ignore/passively discredit someones opinion is not healthy to a discussion. Also playing the moderator role while being biased towards one side is pretty annoying (you tend to do this a lot). So either take a side and contribute with respect for other peoples opinions or leave.
-snip-
I have no desire to get into an argument with you, because I think you and I are talking about very different (non-)issues.
I replied to you, because I felt you referenced the video I posted out of context, for whatever reason. Debating the semantics of “faceroll”? You only quoted this one part of my post specifically, so I tried to clarify my intentions behind linking the video.
So can we please stop having useless discussions like this every week, yes? They make my eyes bleed…
That sounds like a personal problem, guy. No one’s forcing you to write or post here.
It is a personal problem I guess, I´m a bit masochistic.
The devs did actually expect dungeons to take about 20 mins at release. Dungeons have been there for over 2 years and that expected time was probably with clearing most trash groups in mind. But at this stage thats a pretty pathetic and irritating time for experienced players. Its not fun taking twice as long as it needs to for no reason. When you have gone 5 minutes or so on a path. It becomes desirable to do so in the future. Going fast adds a new dimension to the experience.
That is one perspective.
Another is, if I am to spend 45 min a day running dungeons, I’d rather play the dungeon rather than needing to run half a dozen of them for the same fun.
I’m waiting for someone to say the magic word though. . .
Yes its one perspective. And its a perfectly valid opinion to have. I dont know why you are argueing.
Did I argue? I said it was a perspective, not wrong or right.
Why are you being defensive?
If you are not argueing why are you responding?
I’m not like you. I like discussions of change which is why I asked questions about content. If you feel I am being hostile, I assure you I’m not despite the sort of reception my viewpoint seems to make with some posters.
A discussion is an exchange of ideas and arguements. Bringing up totally irrelevant perspectives to change the subject and ignore/passively discredit someones opinion is not healthy to a discussion. Also playing the moderator role while being biased towards one side is pretty annoying (you tend to do this a lot). So either take a side and contribute with respect for other peoples opinions or leave.
And you of all people have less a foundation to dictate how I post. I’ve seen your post history. . .
There is no “sides” when critiquing an idea and if there were, it be more than just 2. I’m not playing moderator because moderators aren’t allowed to sway perspective one way or the other. They are merely bystanders who make sure people do not break rules. I’m not doing any such thing.
And now you say my perspective is irrelevant? Now who’s arguing? I didn’t bad mouth your perspective but you get to go dismissing mine?
-snip-
I have no desire to get into an argument with you, because I think you and I are talking about very different (non-)issues.
I replied to you, because I felt you referenced the video I posted out of context, for whatever reason. Debating the semantics of “faceroll”? You only quoted this one part of my post specifically, so I tried to clarify my intentions behind linking the video.So can we please stop having useless discussions like this every week, yes? They make my eyes bleed…
That sounds like a personal problem, guy. No one’s forcing you to write or post here.
It is a personal problem I guess, I´m a bit masochistic.
Understandable. Like I said, I just felt a certain way about how the actions were described. I see your perspective but just because I quoted that video didn’t mean I shared the same perspective as the poster you were posting it for.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.