Guild Wars 2

Ballistic.4531:

From Linsey Murdock’s Blog post (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/):
“…The first end game mechanic we will introduce is Agony…”
So he sais they will keep introducing new mechanics later on. Who sais you won’t need new “ascended items” to fight off new “agony mechanics”? This is just one of the issues we are having.

Yeah okay, re-reading that it certainly looks like they’re going to be introducing further ascended items with each new major endgame encounter. Oh dear.

They’re clearly not thinking this through thoroughly enough. There is a way to provide a sense of progression, just by introducing increased gear aesthetic variety. As long as something is best in slot, people will chase and chase gear just to regularly attain a distinctive and unique look.

And if they want there to be prerequisites to dungeon entry, then sure, have a all gear with a slot that takes interchangeable items that one has to grind for. That also represents gear progression, but the emphasis is different – rather than being about chasing a wholesale hike in stats in order to be top geared it’s about being “attuned” to specific dungeon mechanics (not in the WoW sense) in order to mitigate that dungeons specific effects.

That, to me anyway, makes sense as a way to move forward – have a flat level of ascended armour, ramp up the choice of gear aesthetically to give people something to chase should they so wish, but make the dungeon effect that requires mitigation purely temporary, something you apply to existing gear. That way, the devs can think up new and fiendish ways to have us rushing around without feeling we’re having to make stupid little incremental base stat increases just so we don’t get left behind.

Job done. Right?

lagrangeify.5641:

Yeah okay, re-reading that it certainly looks like they’re going to be introducing further ascended items with each new major endgame encounter. Oh dear.

They’re clearly not thinking this through thoroughly enough. There is a way to provide a sense of progression, just by introducing increased gear aesthetic variety. As long as something is best in slot, people will chase and chase gear just to regularly attain a distinctive and unique look.

And if they want there to be prerequisites to dungeon entry, then sure, have a all gear with a slot that takes interchangeable items that one has to grind for. That also represents gear progression, but the emphasis is different – rather than being about chasing a wholesale hike in stats in order to be top geared it’s about being “attuned” to specific dungeon mechanics (not in the WoW sense) in order to mitigate that dungeons specific effects.

That, to me anyway, makes sense as a way to move forward – have a flat level of ascended armour, ramp up the choice of gear aesthetically to give people something to chase should they so wish, but make the dungeon effect that requires mitigation purely temporary, something you apply to existing gear. That way, the devs can think up new and fiendish ways to have us rushing around without feeling we’re having to make stupid little incremental base stat increases just so we don’t get left behind.

Job done. Right?

I completely agree with you! There are so many ways to keep the game fresh, interesting and to cause the feeling of progression with players that doesn’t include gear treadmill.
Sadly, they aren’t asking for any hints, suggestions or plain help. No matter what the mods say – it’s the way it is.

Ageia.5843:

Some of those mechanics are reused in various games because they work.

Most of those games using those mechanics have lost huge amounts of players, not to mention those that simply failed. Other than WoW, very few games using that model have been successful.

Erasculio.2914:

Ageia.5843:

Some of those mechanics are reused in various games because they work.

Most of those games using those mechanics have lost huge amounts of players, not to mention those that simply failed. Other than WoW, very few games using that model have been successful.

I agree with you to an extent. It is an old and boring mechanic, but its still a working mechanic. EverQuest, EQ2, LoTRO, FFO, WoW and quite a few others were quite successful lasting 6+ years each. I’d personally call any game that lasts 6+ years in this ever-changing and evolving world of gaming a success.

But I do agree I’d love to see Anet possibly give equal stats to the Ascended stuff as a normal exotic. I think too often companies think they need to add new stats when all a player really wants is something that says “I did this content” New, unique skins on exotic quality gear would achieve the desired effect without upsetting the players not interested in a grind.

Ageia.5843:

Some of those mechanics are reused in various games because they work.

If that type of game WORK explain me why a LOT of players here and in other sites are so angry! Maybe because the advertise of this game, show us something completly different from the standard model.
A lot of us were happy to give to this game the chance to grow, following the manifesto:
No matter if for now WvW seems useless
No matter if the only endgame we have BEFORE, was go on dungeon to have some skin, or farm orr events

we was all waiting for something new: new areas, new skins, new skills, new dragons, new continents (from expansion for sure)…

not a dumb stats progression -_-

Akari Storm.6809:

Generalization: It’s the themepark EQ/WoW converts that are complaining that there isn’t any progression familiar to them ie power creep cravers, content locust, gear grinders and HC raiders.

Generalization: It’s the sandbox type/skill based crowd that dig lateral progression ie the Guild Wars crowd that are being vocal currently about what was told to them and then hit with the bait and switch or atleast the first step in a baait and switch, more to come no doubt.

I don’t think themepark/sandbox is the right distinction. GW1 was much more of a themepark than EQ. It’s just a question of whether that themepark experience ought to involve a over-eager tourist dad trying to rush you through all the rides.

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Anet introduces a new tier of gear — a few months into the game, no less, which may as well be considered launch — and people freak out about a gear treadmill? Do you have logical deduction issues?

New items that require much more playtime to get than the current max tier, and the promise that they’ll be adding more (in this case, the rest of the slots) incrementally through updates, so you keep having new things to grind for? That’s, like, the definition of a gear treadmill.

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

-Ascended gear is not as good as Legendary gear anyway, which means that there is factually no gear treadmill. A gear treadmill introduces gear which is better than gear that already existed. That is not the case here. Period.

Ascended gear has higher stats than the current Legendary gear. It’s just that Legendary gear will be bumped up when there is Ascended stuff added for that slot.

You do understand that most players didn’t have Legendary gear and weren’t planning to farm for it, right? They’re just cool-looking gear you get for style points, not another tier.

Some people are just too indoctrinated to understand what a gear plateau is or means. Even if you tie them down and tattoo it into their forehead they would still come up with arguments that are completely irrelevant to it and show a total lack of even the most basic understanding of the concept.

the “new” gear is only needed for the fractal of the mists dungeon if u want to “progress” into its hardest modes.

so what exactly is the issue here ? you dont need this new gear for the “existing” content and you are not forced to use it to keep playing with every one else .

so time to man up every one and stop whining like little girls.

krixis.9538:

so time to man up every one and stop whining like little girls.

I would be the first one to “man up and stop whining” right after Anet “mans up” and apologize for this mess/broken promises/false marketing/broken manifesto.
But it ain’t happening. So deal with it.

Lifelike.5862:

Ganzo.5079:

Lifelike.5862:

Crater.1625:

Lifelike.5862:

The problem is, this is stagnant. Some of us want something more substantial than ‘ooh, pretty colours!’ with an update. Something that changes the way the game is played at a meta level.

But equipment with higher stats doesn’t change anything. New content will always be designed to be at an appropriate level of challenge relative to the strongest that a player can be. If your damage goes up by 15%, the next boss’s health will go up by 15%.

The only thing that changes is that your gear, which used to be 100% of the maximum power, has been downgraded to only 87% of maximum power, and you have to grind out the new upgrades just to get back to 100%, which is exactly where you started.

I would agree with you, but the way fractals are being handled is already showing that they allow more manipulation of stats than regular gears, due to offering a larger range of different stats through the whole infusion system. Yes, it is power creep. However, I’m very interested to see how certain builds will evolve based on this power creep.

It’s too late to ask for UNIQUE stats on new gear/weapons in this game, such as the way weapons worked in older MMO’s like Ragnarok online. Since this is not possible, upgraded stats on gear will be the closest thing.

In the end, I really don’t think it’ll matter much. Players will eventually get infused gear, and everyone’s numbers will go up across the board, offensively and defensively. The only people truly getting left behind will be the lazy ones who don’t really play the game.

ANd then they put out the above ascendent gear, and after the godly gear… Dont talk for the other players… i dont consider myself a lazy one, but i dont want to LOSE time to farm for stats! if i have to farm its because I WANT TO FARM (like on GW) , and not because im forced to.

You’re not losing time to farm for stats…you are experiencing the new content offered in order to seek new rewards. It’s only boring and a chore if you allow it to be 9_9

Do you seriously think it’s satisfying to max out a tier of gear and then go “ok, done. Never have to work for gear ever again, zzz.”

No, I cannot see the satisfaction that comes with having nothing more to aim for. Right now, it’s the casual players who want to grind for aesthetics who are being selfish. At least they have a viable option of something to waste their time on – an aesthetic upgrade that doesn’t really contribute much of a reward other than as a vanity item. Those of us who want more progression are left in the dust after Exotic gear, with nothing to really aim for beyond that. Nothing but making gold…to do what with?

Anet said in the manifesto that they would be making the game to cater to both the casual and the hardcore crowd. Somewhere along the line, entitled GW1 players interpreted that as “casual crowd only.” it seems.

I don’t enjoy it. I hate the dungeons. Why must I do them to remain competitive. The differences vs exotic are large. Why aren’t they available in WvWvW now?

krixis.9538:

the “new” gear is only needed for the fractal of the mists dungeon if u want to “progress” into its hardest modes.

so what exactly is the issue here ? you dont need this new gear for the “existing” content and you are not forced to use it to keep playing with every one else .

so time to man up every one and stop whining like little girls.

Untrue. Better stats means that I will get stomped in WvWvW without it. Why can’t you understand this?

It’s a poor excuse for a MMO because there’s no one to be found anywhere except in endgame dungeons.

It’s got the “Massive” part right. The world is huge and interesting. But it’s missing the “Multiplayer” because it’s segregated the community so badly by giving no one any reason to go anywhere in the world except level 80 dungeons.

Is this really the best MMO the world has to offer? If so then to hell with MMOs.

"What do you GW1 guys want from the game then? How are to keep a MMO fresh without introducing new content and gear? I’m just so confused by this"

If THAT is the kind of player paying for mmos then we better wait until we can crowdsource a real online GAME and not an online item dispenser with an attached hamster wheel. When we’re.. what, 70? lol

About to give up GW2. Just have to see how this kitten is going to play through. Little hope here.

ASP.8093:

Akari Storm.6809:

Generalization: It’s the themepark EQ/WoW converts that are complaining that there isn’t any progression familiar to them ie power creep cravers, content locust, gear grinders and HC raiders.

Generalization: It’s the sandbox type/skill based crowd that dig lateral progression ie the Guild Wars crowd that are being vocal currently about what was told to them and then hit with the bait and switch or atleast the first step in a baait and switch, more to come no doubt.

I don’t think themepark/sandbox is the right distinction. GW1 was much more of a themepark than EQ. It’s just a question of whether that themepark experience ought to involve a over-eager tourist dad trying to rush you through all the rides.

Yes, but GW1 also had much more of a skill based system with a small level cap and vitually no gear progression. I used the word sandbox because in many of the sandboxes I’ve played, there was usually lateral progression and skill based systems.

Selon.7056:

What do you GW1 guys want from the game then? How are to keep a MMO fresh without introducing new content and gear? I’m just so confused by this – that’s what MMOs do. They continue to evolve. GW1 did change and it did have new gear. they had 5 (or something) expansions and I know I wasn’t sitting in the gear I got from vanilla GW1 that whole time.

Add, in any order or combination you choose, the following:

- new dynamic and even static events that change the face of tyria
- new dungeons and new paths in existing dungeons
- new personal and global story archs and associated quests/events
- new structured pvp events and periodic changes to old ones
- new armor and weapon skins (not “more stats”) associated with all the above
- new skills or weapons available to different professions

and on and on. All of these things involve actual new content rather than lazily ticking up stats, forcing us to run the same old thing over and over, and encouraging people to say “link your tier x or be kicked”

Selon.7056:

Here are two complaints I see all the freaking time:

1) There is nothing to do once you’re level 80.
2) I wanted to get away from gear grinds and just play.

Here is the problem – this is a MMO. The world does not, and will not stay stagnant. You guys can’t have it both ways. You can’t have a game where you get the best gear and then there is nothing to go to from there AND a game that continues to expand on itself by creating new content and, inevitably, gear.

Everyone here is complaining about the POSSIBILITY of a gear grind – why are you complaining? Isn’t this what you guys are so adamant about? “There is nothing to do when I get to 80”. Well you know what? Now there will be. What is it you guys are really looking for from ANet? I’m personally very happy with the game. I feel it has nailed everything that I’m looking for in a MMO. Bring on the content, and bring on more gear and dungeons. Keep on keeping in fresh ANet.

You are right that these are/were the most frequent complaints (the 1st one is basically gone now). But you overlook that these two complaints come from two entirely different parts of the game’s population. The 1st ones being players who like gear grinds, the second ones being players who dislike gear grind and explicitly came here for the promise of not having to participate in a gear grind. The latter did not complain about a lack to do at lvl 80, because they knew what was out there for them to do. But of course, now that these players feel betrayed they complain about the newly introduced gear grind.

Imho, new gear introduced is good as long as it doesn’t get ridicolously time consuming with griding or excessively hard to obtain.

My thoughts…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Discussing-Progression-Reactions/

“How are to keep a MMO fresh without introducing new content and gear?”

Same way that just about any other game either online or offline stays “fresh”: by offering fun gameplay.

The current incarnations of MMO’s are the exception in that they lure people into playing content that they would not play if there would be no reward.

Erasculio.2914:

Ageia.5843:

Some of those mechanics are reused in various games because they work.

Most of those games using those mechanics have lost huge amounts of players, not to mention those that simply failed. Other than WoW, very few games using that model have been successful.

Even WOW the expansion that they had the most subscribers Wrath made gear virtually available to everyone now that they have gated their gear and made it strictly obtainable in raids their numbers have dwindled MOP sales were 37% lower then CATA but I have a certain feeling that they will go up do to Anet change I mean really it easier to craft and farm and some that left for the equal footing promised here have years invested in the game

Everyone, the thing we have to remember is; what the cure is for some, maybe poison to another. In every mmo out there you have both, regardless of what the dev’s say. Areananet added this content to give those at level 80 something to do, Nd though they new it would not be liked by everyone, they still had to try something. Does it work? In my opinion yes, most definatly though i wish there was a requirement in order to get in, like say " equipped all exotic gear" or something.

Steven.9803:

Everyone, the thing we have to remember is; what the cure is for some, maybe poison to another. In every mmo out there you have both, regardless of what the dev’s say. Areananet added this content to give those at level 80 something to do, Nd though they new it would not be liked by everyone, they still had to try something. Does it work? In my opinion yes, most definatly though i wish there was a requirement in order to get in, like say " equipped all exotic gear" or something.

So the fix to the newly added gated content is to add a second gate? HAHA! Good one… oh wait, you’re serious.

Steven.9803:

Everyone, the thing we have to remember is; what the cure is for some, maybe poison to another. In every mmo out there you have both, regardless of what the dev’s say. Areananet added this content to give those at level 80 something to do, Nd though they new it would not be liked by everyone, they still had to try something. Does it work? In my opinion yes, most definatly though i wish there was a requirement in order to get in, like say " equipped all exotic gear" or something.

time will tell if this truely does work but rift started with record numbers and then focused on raiding and then came the server closing and so forth as most returned to other games they had more time invested in people are looking for a change in the same mmo formula Anet started with that idea and most wont stick around for what they were already getting in the game they left most of my friends and fellows gamers already went back after the patch I ll be spitting my time and funds if this continues to be the trend after all this is a free to play at the moment any way

Steven.9803:

Everyone, the thing we have to remember is; what the cure is for some, maybe poison to another. In every mmo out there you have both, regardless of what the dev’s say. Areananet added this content to give those at level 80 something to do, Nd though they new it would not be liked by everyone, they still had to try something. Does it work? In my opinion yes, most definatly though i wish there was a requirement in order to get in, like say " equipped all exotic gear" or something.

The other way round would make sense: We need a requirement to get out of the FotM Lab. If you want to travel back to LA you would have to leave all your ascended gear behind cause it’s worthless outside of the mists. That way the content would be gated too, but not in the wrong way.

I haven’t bothered reading this entire thread. After the first few, you realize it’s the same crap over and over like most of the posts on this forum. Arena Net this, Arena Net that.
Just wanted to say this: have you people ever thought Arena Net may not be in charge here anymore? That some “Higher Force” is pulling the strings? And that as much as they would love to respond to your concerns, they can’t? Read about Nexon and NCSoft recent issues. It may enlighten you.

Tiger Ashante.1792:

I haven’t bothered reading this entire thread. After the first few, you realize it’s the same crap over and over like most of the posts on this forum. Arena Net this, Arena Net that.
Just wanted to say this: have you people ever thought Arena Net may not be in charge here anymore? That some “Higher Force” is pulling the strings? And that as much as they would love to respond to your concerns, they can’t? Read about Nexon and NCSoft recent issues. It may enlighten you.

Regardless of who is making the decisions all 3 will reap the rewards wondering how many will invest in games from these companies if they drop the ball here and leave a bad taste in your mouth

Actually I don’t so much mind new gear with new stats as I mind that there is currently only one way to get that gear (yet the gear still affects WvW). I also very much object to the fact that the gear grind can be shortened by spending real money to purchase some of the mats. Gamers should not encourage pay to skip necessary grind as a revenue source!

deborah.2068:

Steven.9803:

Everyone, the thing we have to remember is; what the cure is for some, maybe poison to another. In every mmo out there you have both, regardless of what the dev’s say. Areananet added this content to give those at level 80 something to do, Nd though they new it would not be liked by everyone, they still had to try something. Does it work? In my opinion yes, most definatly though i wish there was a requirement in order to get in, like say " equipped all exotic gear" or something.

time will tell if this truely does work but rift started with record numbers and then focused on raiding and then came the server closing and so forth as most returned to other games they had more time invested in people are looking for a change in the same mmo formula Anet started with that idea and most wont stick around for what they were already getting in the game they left most of my friends and fellows gamers already went back after the patch I ll be spitting my time and funds if this continues to be the trend after all this is a free to play at the moment any way

Well if you’re going to focus on raiding, it better be an improvement of the raiding that’s already out there, or else they’re going to go back to the better raids. That’s why rift failed in that sense, they specifically targeted WoW’s players, but then WoW was the better designed game.

But yeah can design content that keeps that character advancement, keeps people having something to do without making it all about gear. But the thing to remember, we’re driven by rewards. If you need proof of that, I’ll be on later, all you bored 80s, come help me do all my quests and level. You won’t, because it does nothing for you.

That carrot is what keeps people logging into these games. It’s something that you want to work for, something you want to take the time on. Achievement hunting isn’t for everyone. Some people just don’t PvP…

The reason so many games use the gear grind, and why it’s so successful, is who doesn’t want to be more powerful?

There’s a time and place to be innovative, working systems like an EQ2 or WoW style endgame just isn’t the place for that. WIthout a grind, without a goal, you’re just not going to log on.

The game will last, I’m gonna keep playing it at least til 80, but it’s not going to have the success that’s going to make the developers the money. It’s a single player game with the option to group and have more mobs appear.

tonyl.5063:

deborah.2068:

Steven.9803:

Everyone, the thing we have to remember is; what the cure is for some, maybe poison to another. In every mmo out there you have both, regardless of what the dev’s say. Areananet added this content to give those at level 80 something to do, Nd though they new it would not be liked by everyone, they still had to try something. Does it work? In my opinion yes, most definatly though i wish there was a requirement in order to get in, like say " equipped all exotic gear" or something.

time will tell if this truely does work but rift started with record numbers and then focused on raiding and then came the server closing and so forth as most returned to other games they had more time invested in people are looking for a change in the same mmo formula Anet started with that idea and most wont stick around for what they were already getting in the game they left most of my friends and fellows gamers already went back after the patch I ll be spitting my time and funds if this continues to be the trend after all this is a free to play at the moment any way

Well if you’re going to focus on raiding, it better be an improvement of the raiding that’s already out there, or else they’re going to go back to the better raids. That’s why rift failed in that sense, they specifically targeted WoW’s players, but then WoW was the better designed game.

But yeah can design content that keeps that character advancement, keeps people having something to do without making it all about gear. But the thing to remember, we’re driven by rewards. If you need proof of that, I’ll be on later, all you bored 80s, come help me do all my quests and level. You won’t, because it does nothing for you.

That carrot is what keeps people logging into these games. It’s something that you want to work for, something you want to take the time on. Achievement hunting isn’t for everyone. Some people just don’t PvP…

The reason so many games use the gear grind, and why it’s so successful, is who doesn’t want to be more powerful?

There’s a time and place to be innovative, working systems like an EQ2 or WoW style endgame just isn’t the place for that. WIthout a grind, without a goal, you’re just not going to log on.

The game will last, I’m gonna keep playing it at least til 80, but it’s not going to have the success that’s going to make the developers the money. It’s a single player game with the option to group and have more mobs appear.

You took the word right out of my mouth there buddy!

The people that are whining are the WvW because they think that the small increase in stats will effect WvW. They fail to realize WvW will never be balanced because it is zerg vs zerg… and and 10 people shooting you still kill you just as fast

fractal.7039:

The people that are whining are the WvW because they think that the small increase in stats will effect WvW. They fail to realize WvW will never be balanced because it is zerg vs zerg… and and 10 people shooting you still kill you just as fast

You’ll get people who will argue about a 1v1 or 5v5 scenario, when truth is most battles don’t play out that way, and most peoples primary objectives end up being towers and keeps, which require a large number of players to take if defended. Small groups can take an objective, but generally, it won’t work, unless coordinated with the much larger group.

A lot of the content they added introduced new issues, didn’t necessarily address old issues that players have bemoaned about since the game came out, and further inflamed old issues.

Without busting out the novel post, think about these areas and how the new content has impacted them for better or worse (obviously not a complete list, but certainly ones that get brought up quite a bit):

+ Profession Balance
+ Condition Damage and conditions in general
+ Acquiring gear through RNG/Grind vs. Skill
+ LFG system