Guild Wars 2

ExpiredLifetime.1083:

Latinkuro.9420:

I’m a casual player and even I have 4 crafted exotic sets, 1 dungeon armor set, full compliment of exotic weapons usable by my profession, world completion is at 56% only.

Ascended gear is welcomed with open arms, people complain about gear hamster wheel but they do not see that ascended gear is just in between exotic and legendary, now if they add something like godly armor as higher than legendary THAT right there would be a gear hamster wheel.

Most of the people complaining, I see them as the part of the player base that never even touched guild wars 1 and have no idea about infused armor, how it works and how it is NOT part of a gear hamster wheel.

“This is just the beginning. In November, we’re only adding the first level of Infusions and Ascended Rings and Back slots, so that leaves us a lot of room to build upon these levels of Item progression in future content.”

I would call that a treadmill.

Sounds like a treadmill, looks like a treadmill, feels like a treadmill. Probably is a treadmill.

This is not what I had in mind when I bought this game.
I thought GW is not about gear difference between
hard-core players and normal players, and Elitists will never appear in this game.
I guess I am wrong.
I just hate the idea of someone can perform better than you just because he/she has more time to play this game.

I would really like to have a refund, Diablo 3 is a huge dismantlement,and now GW2.

I really hate that Anet is building in the gear grind into the game. I was happy that all the high end gear was capped and we would not have to get a new tier of gear every couple of months. I can understand that if they release an expansion with new levels there will be higher levels of gear and that is good. But to have to keep trying to get a new tier of gear over and over and over and over just so can stay competitive in WvW? Don’t clone WoW who cloned Everquest. Just Don’t!

Nar.8327:

Change the stats on the ring to…

---

48 power
48 precision
7% magic find
18 power
18 precision
infusion slot
—-

This is all it would take for 99% of the complaints on this board to vanish. By changing five numbers, I just did a better job at pleasing the community than Linsey Murdock’s entire team, and I don’t even have my bachelor’s yet.

As a loyal Guild Wars player, I implore you – let me keep my current gear and work for things to ADD to my arsenal rather than REPLACE parts of it. If I wanted to constantly work for better gear, I could do it a heck of a lot cheaper in Aion – which I left to try to get AWAY from.

Well said my friend.

gnash.7584:

My thoughts?
This: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/power-creep/

gnash, that was great. Thanks for posting!

krookie.6378:

camoflaugz.5031:

No I’m not trolling, but I shouldn’t say nothing is fun, that was wrong, I take that back. I would say at end game I need something to keep me going. This is an MMO, thats what MMO players look for at the end. If i didn’t want to do that I would just play a single player console game or something. As of now I don’t really log on that much because I’m waiting for the patch.

Speak for yourself. This is not what MMO players look for at the end. This is what you and those trained by WoW’s Skinner box look for at the end. Those of us who played UO and GW1 do not look for a gear grind at the end.

I played all MMO’s some for short time some for long. In the end the MMO that has more to do lasts and this has been proven by Millions of MMO players already. So I would say yes MMO players do look for this at the end. Whats the point of playing an MMO that has no progression? Its suppose to be built to last

I am a “loyal player”, I have waited GW2 five years like others and I have played everyday (expect 3 days) since release and hell yea, I want my legendary.

sceptus.9415:

camoflaugz.5031:

Snerf.1650:

Loosifah.4739:

If the only thing you get from new sets and new gear in new content updates is a new look, what the hell is the point in doing the new content other than “Oh wow I have all these pretty USELESS sets”?

Because we enjoy doing the content for the sake of fun!

You don’t need to chase the carrot to enjoy yourself. Doing fun things is fun.

Why should there be more to it than that? This is what Anet has said to believe, and it’s what many of us do as well.

Actually, nothing is fun for me, without a reason for doing something. And Millions of MMO players have proved this to be true already. Anet stick to whats proven numbers don’t lie.

You aren’t a gamer. That’s all there is to say.

So because he finds different enjoyment in gaming than you do, he’s not a gamer?

So by that logic because you have different likes and interests than I and most of my friends do; you’re not a person?

Loosifah.4739:

The thing that I find the funniest here is that all of this feedback from the community is based on speculation. Nobody has even seen anything other than a RING kitten

I find that it sends pretty clear message:

We don´t want that kitten, not even in a 1 bloody ring.

I watched the manifesto again, and right now I feel just like most of the people coming here to complain. I understand why some people are welcoming the change, I have absolutely nothing against them. What makes a lot of people unhappy is the fact that they promised their game would be different, that it would not have this or that, then went in and announced that they will be doing otherwise. This is not about how the change affects the game, it’s about how ANet promised their game would be before release, and how they are alienating us by going back on their words.

Kagoshima Josh.5412:

Throw me in with the disappointed with ArenaNet group.

I don’t think the folks at ANet are dim, so I’m assuming they’d expect a pretty significant push back against a new tier of gear. Yet, they did it anyway. That says to me that they are willing to sacrifice the support of many GW2 fans who love the (up till now) non-treadmill approach to gain an influx of players (fans of the pro gear treadmill approach).

Nobody likes a bait and switch and this definitely feels like one.

I don’t think there even exists a group that wants this, unless you count the random WoW fanboys that already went back to WoW anyway.

Ruining the game because one kid wants a gear treadmill, at the expense of 99% of the player base that bought the game specifically due to lack of gear treadmill is such a horrendously bad idea it beggars belief.

Look what they said about legendary weapons. Now imagine they add legendary armors. Understand? Scaling.

lol, They have seen the exact same response to their class nerfs, actually they see an incredible amount of negativity after each content update, but its as I said before they will just take the responses with a grain of salt, because with every complaint there is probably 2-3 positive responses….or it could be vice versa, no real way to tell. In anycase as I stated before I’m looking forward to more gear and more content, it makes me wonder how far Anet will take this….now if they would only work at their armor designs to accompany these new tiers of armor and possibly future releases. Come on anet do NOT just improve stats, give the sets appearances worthy of being between exotic and legendary tier.

One question, in the near future when they teach this shining example piss poor decision making in business schools, will it be called “doing a Linsey” or “doing a Murdock”

camoflaugz.5031:

krookie.6378:

camoflaugz.5031:

No I’m not trolling, but I shouldn’t say nothing is fun, that was wrong, I take that back. I would say at end game I need something to keep me going. This is an MMO, thats what MMO players look for at the end. If i didn’t want to do that I would just play a single player console game or something. As of now I don’t really log on that much because I’m waiting for the patch.

Speak for yourself. This is not what MMO players look for at the end. This is what you and those trained by WoW’s Skinner box look for at the end. Those of us who played UO and GW1 do not look for a gear grind at the end.

I played all MMO’s some for short time some for long. In the end the MMO that has more to do lasts and this has been proven by Millions of MMO players already. So I would say yes MMO players do look for this at the end. Whats the point of playing an MMO that has no progression? Its suppose to be built to last

No one’s complaining about having more to do. We’re complaining about being promised that this MMO would do it differently, where no one with more free time would have a statistical advantage over anyone else.

If this were a one time added step between exotic and legendary, I can stomach it…maybe. But they havent specified that. They are increasing the stats of current legendaries to be on par with ascended items. Whose to say they wont decide to throw in another tier and do this again, just increase the stats of the legendaries again.

Its a slippery slope.

Shunsui Jiraiya.9103:

GW2 Manifesto looks like the Pirates Code… “Its more like guidelines”

I can see Mike O’Brien doing the Johnny Depp run from all of the former GW2 customers

Perfection right there !

This blog post feels right:

http://divinitysreach.blogspot.de/

I have no voice, and I certainly don’t carry any weight in my words to you ArenaNet. We asked for many changes to your PvE content, but this was almost never asked for by the majority of your fanbase. I have defended you countless times, and trusted you far more than any company rightfully deserves. I hoped this game would be different, that it would set a precedent for other upcoming MMOs. When you challenged the current field of competitors, it was we who rose with you. When you cried for change, it was us who spread the news that it was time for a new type of MMO. When it was you who asked who will play, we answered with a resounding “yes.” You will likely not lose money, many of us will still play, and you will almost certainly not read this. But you have lost our trust, I hope it was worth it.

EverythingXen.1835:

I didnt say it wasnt a lot of people. I said it wasnt enough.

I agree the lack of anything worthwhile on the cash shop isnt helping.

The gear progression is a temporary fix though. They may get an influx of new players from WoW but those players tend to go back when they finished devouring the content. I mean there is a reason why no other game is able to compete with WoW. If they offer the same type of game play as the original, people would try it and then go back. The original is always better.

A more fleshed out cash shop could solve any financial issues. This solution only really serves to alienate people who love GW2 specifically because it’s not a gear treadmill.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

They were going to do this all along. That’s why it’s coming out before any cash shop expansion and without any real polling of the customer base. It has nothing to do with a lack of revenue or “customer feedback”. There’s no logic to those claims.

First off great post Win.

Agreed, it’s a known fact that developers of this game were talking about item progression and this type of initiative as far back as PAX. I just never thought they would implement it.

dimgl.4786:

ExpiredLifetime.1083:

Latinkuro.9420:

I’m a casual player and even I have 4 crafted exotic sets, 1 dungeon armor set, full compliment of exotic weapons usable by my profession, world completion is at 56% only.

Ascended gear is welcomed with open arms, people complain about gear hamster wheel but they do not see that ascended gear is just in between exotic and legendary, now if they add something like godly armor as higher than legendary THAT right there would be a gear hamster wheel.

Most of the people complaining, I see them as the part of the player base that never even touched guild wars 1 and have no idea about infused armor, how it works and how it is NOT part of a gear hamster wheel.

“This is just the beginning. In November, we’re only adding the first level of Infusions and Ascended Rings and Back slots, so that leaves us a lot of room to build upon these levels of Item progression in future content.”

I would call that a treadmill.

Sounds like a treadmill, looks like a treadmill, feels like a treadmill. Probably is a treadmill.

And for this reason, I will very likely no longer be playing the game. There’s a couple of other games coming out soon that are much more unique than GW2 is, and I have lost all desire to stick with this game now.

I always said that one of the great things about Guild Wars is that there are no gear checks. You get your max level gear and (as long as you are using that build, at least) that’s it. Well, apparently I was wrong.

A difference between this and armor infusion in Guild Wars 1 is that you just needed to do a single thing in Guild Wars and you had infused armor and that was that. It was not a grind. One thing that was annoying about it was that you had to do it again if you were wearing different armor, something which also seems to apply here.

Of course, that brings up an interesting point: It also just buffed whatever armor you already had, rather than make you replace it. That is a huge difference, as it keeps that armor still relevant.

Furthermore, nothing like that was present in any of the Guild Wars campaigns after the first one, which suggest that it was decided that it was not really a good gameplay mechanic. (There was the Nightfall faction grind to get past the beginning, I guess, something which was generally frowned upon.) Now we are going in the opposite direction and even taking it a step further by making the gear actually have better stats.

I don’t like it. I’m not going to say that I’m going to quit the game over it or something, because I enjoy this game a lot, and overall, that’s not really going to change that. I don’t like it as a feature, though. I’d rather see something like the Eye of the North territory buffs (not tied to gear and also not NECESSARY to do any content) if we’re going to go down this road at all. (Not the PvE-only title-based skills, though. That was a terrible idea.)

Speaking just for my self: I want to see more content – like new areas instead of gear progression. If I wanted to play for gear progression I would had play other games (like WoW) . Ascended Gear should have the same stats like exotics, no more no less.

Fayte.1803:

lol, They have seen the exact same response to their class nerfs, actually they see an incredible amount of negativity after each content update, but its as I said before they will just take the responses with a grain of salt, because with every complaint there is probably 2-3 positive responses….or it could be vice versa, no real way to tell. In anycase as I stated before I’m looking forward to more gear and more content, it makes me wonder how far Anet will take this….now if they would only work at their armor designs to accompany these new tiers of armor and possibly future releases. Come on anet do NOT just improve stats, give the sets appearances worthy of being between exotic and legendary tier.

I say do NOT improve stats, just make them look like they are the next step.

If it had the same exact stats are exotics then what would be the difference?

xeph.8410:

As someone who hasn’t played any other NCSoft subsidiary title before, could you provide further details? I’m interested in knowing how it turned out for you in City of Heroes. Did the developers manage to stick to their guns in the end?

No. After many years without it (6?), a raid-style “end-game” was introduced.

To put it mildly, it didn’t do so well. It certainly didn’t vault the game into unprecedented levels of popularity by drawing in mythical hordes of end-gamers.

However, the system was added after a very long stint without having such a thing. And the developers did make some effort to merge the idea with their long-established design criteria. Despite how ill-fitting that merge turned out to be, I can’t blame them for trying. Especially if they were being pressured from on high, as I now firmly believe they were.

The difference here is that GW2 does not have several years of content built up. This shift in trajectory is happening after only a few months in. That doesn’t bode well for the style of content I’m interested in.

Since you played it for eight years I imagine you must have enjoyed the game despite issues like this coming up.

For an MMORPG, the title wasn’t remotely conventional. For a player like me, there was a lot to latch onto, even when things came along that I wasn’t so thrilled about.

The same can’t be said for GW2. It’ll certainly keep my attention for a time—I’m having a lot of fun with it right now—but, as it stands, it won’t hold me over a longer term. Perhaps more importantly, my level of investment won’t be anywhere near as deep as it could be, which means I won’t be the community anchor I could’ve been otherwise, and have been in other games.

City of Heroes was not without its warts. But there was a lot about it that ANet could take cues from, given its alleged intentions for the GW franchise. I’ve often wondered how a fantasy MMO would do if it employed City’s design criteria. I suspect it’d be very successful.

Here’s hoping the indie tide continues to rise.

GamerGirl.1496:

This sentence is what has me worried about the new gear.

Quote from Linsey’s blog post:
“Eventually, you’ll be able to kit yourself out with a full set of Ascended gear and high end Infusions to help give you the edge in end game content.”

No one was ever supposed to have an “edge”. Ever.

Exactly! GW2 is not supposed to be about ‘my gear gives me an edge over those other players.’ This game is supposed to be the opposite of that.

Short and sweet: I bought this game under the pretenses that one could acquire max stat gear (Exotics) from a variety of different sources, including dungeons, crafting, WvW, karma; and that once one had max stat gear, one would remain at the power plateau regardless of future time investment.

Now, it appears that both of these pretenses are incorrect. ANet is introducing gear tiers, which have only been confirmed to be available via dungeons (Ascended rings).

If the new dungeon limited tiers are only usable in said dungeons, I might be OK with it. However, it will be a major disappointment if this gear affects world PvE or WvW. Yes, perhaps a big enough disappointment for me to quit altogether.

On a side note: does anyone else find it humorous that the new dungeon introducing gear tiers has the acronym FotM?

So it looks like ArenaNet is catering for the hardcore player base, and leaving the casuals as an “under geared” group of players.

What happened to None-Gated content ? What happened to being able to just play with my friends in ANY content. Is it true there will now be zones I can not play, because I haven’t farmed the right gear?

Gear checks???

ArenaNet, this is not what you said we would be playing.

If nothing else I would like more communication from Anet. I don’t like what I see right now:

-angry people on the forums
-negative press
-except for the official response, deafening silence from the developer
-the occasional tweet from an official source, with the characteristic whiff of condescension towards critics
-the occasional carefully worded and discordantly cheerful press release

I’ve seen this beast many times before. This is the behavior of a company that has insulated itself in a criticism-free bubble. Now it’s early still, this is not a terminal condition, they can still be cured. But the symptoms are already there.

Loosifah.4739:

The thing that I find the funniest here is that all of this feedback from the community is based on speculation. Nobody has even seen anything other than a RING kitten

The fact there’s so much feedback when there’s nothing to go on but speculation shows how important this issue is.

I’ll help you play if you need help. And let’s try to not* generalize, if it affects you, it affects you. I’m a casual player and I find it fine.

I faer that this will start the rullercoster of unbalanced gameplay between players of hardcore and cons.

g. In the end the MMO that has more to do lasts

Gw1 lasted longer than most of the ones that follow your model COMBINED.

Oops.

EverythingXen.1835:

Not enough to keep a game this size running, or this wouldnt be happening.

Really?

How is Anet making money on this?

Are they selling the Ascended Gear in the gem store?

Is the new gear grind going to magically make people pay a sub fee?

Is this making them more money than concentrating on developing new cosmetics for the store?

Go ahead. I’ll wait.

Agony, and it can only be cleansed by specific gears.

Gear check indeed.

Loosifah.4739:

If it had the same exact stats are exotics then what would be the difference?

Better looks? Different stat combinations? Infusion slot? Prestige?

I hope they will give us non-grinding gamers an alternative way of getting this silly gear.
I don’t mind paying real money for a few items, and maybe grind the few that I have time to.

Latinkuro.9420:

I’m a casual player and even I have 4 crafted exotic sets, 1 dungeon armor set, full compliment of exotic weapons usable by my profession, world completion is at 56% only.

Hmmm, hate to break it to you, but you’re not a casual player. Well, obviously there’s a spectrum from casual to totally hardcore. You may not be at the top end of hardcore, but I’d say you’re not representative of the “true” casual if you either farmed or paid for all the materials for 4 crafted exotic sets and have a full compliment of exotic weapons.

What Anet really needs to do is reveal some of their data mining that led to this decision. Anet claims the forums aren’t a good measure of player feelings, won’t do in game surveys because they’re flawed (but hey, so is everything), and then claim they have more scientific ways to determine how players feel and are acting.

Well, pony up Anet. What sort of data mining and statistical analyses has led you to the conclusion players want this new tier of gear? Its not me, that’s for sure, I have 1 level 80 in rare armor and a couple of rare/masterwork weapons.

Here, watch it. It turns out this isn’t what they delivered, and I think comments sum it up too well.

EverythingXen.1835:

Loosifah.4739:

The thing that I find the funniest here is that all of this feedback from the community is based on speculation. Nobody has even seen anything other than a RING kitten

The fact there’s so much feedback when there’s nothing to go on but speculation shows how important this issue is.

Also the fact that this is LAUNCHING IN 2 kitten DAYS – you can understand why people are upset. The community that doesn’t want this included in the next patch needs to speak up now or never.

Lothair.8942:

gnash.7584:

My thoughts?
This: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/power-creep/

gnash, that was great. Thanks for posting!

Perfect movie that describes exactly what is going on here.

xeph.8410:

Latinkuro.9420:

Ascended gear is welcomed with open arms, people complain about gear hamster wheel but they do not see that ascended gear is just in between exotic and legendary, now if they add something like godly armor as higher than legendary THAT right there would be a gear hamster wheel.

It constantly amazes me how many people think that Legendary items are better than Exotics.

Your signature, by the way, is very apt.

Yes better as in they have more pleasing aesthetics and cool effects.

Better looks? Rare cultural gear has better looks than most exotics.

Different Stat combinations? It would still just be exotic gear.

Infusion slot? That’s practically the only major difference, plus minor stat increases.

Oh, and could we use another term than “hardcore”. They’re not hardcore as in skilled and cool, they just spend A LOT of time grinding stuff. End of story.

@Wintyre Fraust.6534

FANTASTIC post. Read every word and couldn’t agree more, especially on the cash shop items.

I want this company to make money. Lots of it.

Give me a reason to spend.

Feycat.4370:

EverythingXen.1835:

Not enough to keep a game this size running, or this wouldnt be happening.

Really?

How is Anet making money on this?

Are they selling the Ascended Gear in the gem store?

Is the new gear grind going to magically make people pay a sub fee?

Is this making them more money than concentrating on developing new cosmetics for the store?

Go ahead. I’ll wait.

People playing longer have a longer opportunity to possibly spend money. Inevitably at least one more gem purchase will be made by a player that’s only continuing to play to get their Ascended gear. At the end of the day that’s all they care about. Also, 2 words, Transmutation Stones. Yeah that’s the money maker here when they add new gear.

Anyone here in the U.S. notice this thread view count is spinning faster than our national debt? That should make everyone smile.

Replies: 5,354
Views: 48,840

On topic another thing that is somewhat troubling is that the content is out this weekend, there is trouble in the kitchen via this post, and all is quite on the game developers front.

Does this much chatter even warrent a pause?

Well ladies and gents i have an idea as to how this is going to work in the future. Keep in mind this is an educated guess as to how the new gear will work without breaking the manifesto. First lets preface a bit.
Exotics are every where, they are in dungeons, wvw, the trading post, and from karma. To go and change all the stats for all exotics to work with the new agony mechanic would mean changing well over 400 armor pieces. In other words a programmer’s nightmare. So it is easier to add a new set and balance it to the current system.

Now before we look at numbers and dive in deeper, lets start with what we know about the orichalcum ring made with opal compared to the yakkington ring. Just looking at the slots we notice that the yakkington ring has a different slot(which i will dub the agony slot) not an upgrade slot. The new agony condition is made for dungeons. Meaning this new mechanic will not be introduced into PvP(hopefully).

Now lets get to the numbers, let’s go back to our ring example. The yakkington ring has better base stats than the opal ring by 5 power, 5 precision, and 3% magic find. The kicker is there is no gear treadmill difference between the two. Yes they are both equal. Now you may say “but 5 is clearly more than what the current exotic value is.” But instead of looking at the small picture lets look at the big one.

IF the ascended gear only accepts the agony slot and no other runes and sigils. Unless the base stats are higher to accommodate the exotic values, then the true value of the ascended gear would be less valuable than exotics. So lets dig into the math, assuming the values stay constant for the example we will use rune of the soldier for an example and compare to the hypothetically ascended values.

Superior rune of the soldier bonuses are
1set: +25 vitality
2set: +15 toughness
3set: +50 vitality
4set: +35 toughness
5set: +90 vitality
6set: shouts remove a condition.
total gained: 165 vitality, 50 toughness. remove condition.
Now i suspect since the rings were slightly buffed that the armor and weapons will be slightly changed to make up for the missing stats of 165 vitality, 50 toughness, and remove a condition.
This means that just because ascended stats are higher does not make exotics useless or dungeons useless.

Now There are potential problems with the new system, since no system is perfect. Rings, back piece, and earrings only get a jewel piece to go inside of them. Yet the ascended rings are there to balance the big problem. The big problem is what if someone goes to wvw with just the ascended rings and keeps his runed exotics on. The problem i am getting at is mixing the two system can lead to an imbalance among players. Here is my solution:
Step 1: Divide and conquer: as we saw from the last paragraph mixing sets can lead to an imbalance. Therefore Ascended jewelry must be balanced with orichalcum jewelry. Ascended armor must be balanced for runed exotics. Ascended weapons should be balanced with exotics and legendaries. This way you can’t cheat the system and the paranoia is solved.
Step 2: Choosing wisely: Some runes like superior rune of divinity may cause a balancing issue with the new sets. Take it slowly anet, and inform the player base better about what you are doing. You are in your own bracket of gaming and no one can touch that. Not even the game that shall not be named. Nor will you become its clone.
Step 3: Thank Tyria for me
For hopefully clarifying the situation for everyone. There will be no treadmill, and there will be no over-reacting to a lack of information provided by anet. When in doubt do as the moas do, squawk and look adorable.

Yougottawanna.7420:

If nothing else I would like more communication from Anet. I don’t like what I see right now:

-angry people on the forums
-negative press
-except for the official response, deafening silence from the developer
-the occasional tweet from an official source, with the characteristic whiff of condescension towards critics
-the occasional carefully worded and discordantly cheerful press release

I’ve seen this beast many times before. This is the behavior of a company that has insulated itself in a criticism-free bubble. Now it’s early still, this is not a terminal condition, they can still be cured. But the symptoms are already there.

my thoughts exactly. i’ve seen this before. the only company who managed to reverse the downhill spiral was CCP with the aurum and captain quarters fiasco.

let’s see how ArenaNet can manage this kittentorm.