Guild Wars 2

I’m wondering this myself but I really doubt we’ll see that before a new expansion.

I’m fine with it, and I HATE the endless gear grinding of the WoW treadmill model. Sounds like it’s intermediate gear landing between easy to obtain and difficult to obtain. Regardless of the minor differences between them, it’s the ease at which you can obtain them that is the difference. Not so much the stats (which means there’s no need to push for them if you decide you don’t want to since no one will be requiring you to have the gear.).

following the update from chris…i dont see why you need to make the gear stats better than exotic. you can add new content, you can make us have to get the infusion type of buff on the gear to go further along into the pve content, but you certainly DO NOT have to buff the stats from exotics. i don’t see why you guys think you need that. it is against what you made us belive in your manifesto, and obviously against the principles of a new mmo genre that goes against gear trendmills. if you put better stats on new gear, you obviously introduce a gear trendmill.

new content and new skin is enough to keep people that want to happy and farming. but having better stats makes us feel we need it to compete and thats where you lose alot of us that have no interest in pve runs.

please keep the stats the same. you can still have everything you planned on your following patches, you just have to keep the stats the same !

KingClash.3186:

Woah.. This is the biggest crybaby thread for this game to date.
No one cares whatsoever if you leave the game so stop being attention w****s
Just be happy that something new is being introduced, that or just walk away; dont come to the forums and toss a mega hissy fit.
#Getoverit

YOU don’t care, which is perfectly fine.

But I can tell you, most people were attracted to GW2 because after getting the max stat gear (exotic) you could only improve looks and there was no power grind involved.

If Anet alienates that kind of players, those who pay their salary and dividends, you bet they will care.

I’ve never seen such a blatant 180 in design so soon after purchase. If we just sit back and take this, we should expect more of this in the future, not just from Anet, but other developers aswell.

I plan to play Darkfall:Unholy Wars Nov. 20th. That should be enough mmorpg to get me through for a few months until the next batch of mmorpgs start betas.

It’s the principle Anet. We play games from companies we can trust.

There will be several levels of Ascended tierupgrades.

The name stays “Ascended” but it will have different power levels.

Let’s assume, this change will be there to cater the more hardcore gamers, propably the ones with a lot of time to spend gaming. What do you think, how long it will take them to get these new items? One week? Or even two weeks?
I am sure, the very first ones will have all the new stuff at the end of the event. And next week there will be new posts of “game is boring” and “nothing to do”.
So you catered a minority which still is not satisfied and at the same time you scared away all your long term players and customers (I am exaggerating, but I guess you know, what I want to say).

Cyferwolf.1089:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside – Studio Design Director

Thank you for posting further information.

I won’t say I like it. To me, the whole idea of adding another tier reeks of a slow addition of the gear treadmill. I appreciate some people are have gotten legendaries and feel there’s a void at end game. I don’t think adding more gear will please them without alienating the core fanbase that loved gw1 for content progression rather than gear grind. My personal feeling is if you cater to the guys that are complaining about having no reason to play the game because there’s no progression you’re playing an endless fool’s game. Once they get the next tier they’ll just demand another. I don’t feel like these are the people that will stick to the game when another one with newer shinier stuff comes out. As soon as you stop spoon feeding them carrots to get them to play, they’ll leave.

Beyond that, this feels like a betrayal of the principle that skill and not stats or willingness to grind should be what wins, and that adding gear grind doesn’t add fun. Infusion was an amusing side note in GW1. Something that was hellishly easy for anybody to get, but basically not a big deal. I think people who bring up LOTRO and WoW history in this argument have a point. Gating content just adds grind before new players can enjoy content with their friends.

All that said… I’ll give this a chance.

GW1 was my first MMO. I was used to hitting max level quickly and knowing I could do whatever content was out there pretty much immediately. It was great to know leveling another character was relatively quick and again, I could pretty much do what I wanted when I hit the top. Trying out WAR, and playing WoW, was a hideous shock. The idea that max level just meant I got to grind the same content, over and over, for hundreds of hours praying for the drop I needed to complete my set before I could play the real end game sucked. Realizing I also had to grind my butt off in PvP the same way, and add another hundred hours to do the hard mode end game content was just one more kick in the teeth. And three months later, new content comes out, and all that work is just flushed down the toilet because a new tier has been released, and your old gear is pointless.

That’s why I look at the idea of adding a new tier with such disdain. I played GW1 because it was fun. I ground for the skins I wanted, not because I needed a specific piece to be able to play the next set of content, and not because I needed a stat boost to justify the time I put into the game. Seeing my character progress through titles and get cool looking armor was enough.

The idea of releasing ascended gear very slowly, as pieces rather than a set, is not perfect, but it’s a significantly less drastic gear progression. And so long as there are many varied ways to acquire most of the gear, worst case is you maybe have to only hold your nose and do something you don’t enjoy a little bit to keep up. It’s a compromise that I can see my self living with, even if it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

At the end of the day, I enjoy the game too much to let this decision drive me from playing, even if I feel it’s a bad direction to take the game.

I hope, a year from now or whenever the ascended set is complete, that Anet announces that their will be no further gear progression. I don’t know if that’s the case, and I don’t know what I’ll do if it’s not, but for the moment I’m willing to stick with the game, enjoy my time, and see how it all plays out.

I have to agree completely.

I sat by am hoped for some better changes these past few months and this was a change for the worst. GW1 was amazing, the idea of playing a game for the fun of playing the game was a fantastic concept.

I enjoying playing a game I do not enjoy grinding to have the ability to play the game. Sadly this update is going to make me quit.

cesmode.4257:

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

Lothair.8942:

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

I just want as many of us to point out to their specific content leads, and producers, and game designers that have publically said one thing, and now going against it. I want to call them out as liars because that is what they are. I am pointing out that they promised and didnt deliver, buckling under the carrot on a stick pressure.

You don’t get a gameplay advantage from a Legendary. Legendary will always have the same stats as the highest non-Legendary item you can acquire in other, generally much easier and faster ways.

The only “advantage” of a Legendary is that it will increase in stats by itself if there is a new tier of armor appearing which is exactly how it should be given the amount of time and resources needed to obtain one.

So, when Eric Flannum says in the video “Legendaries wont be more powerful than the already existing top level Exotics”… That means that its OK for them to throw in better gear than exotics, and bump legendaries to that?

I call that a classic word play right there.

Yeah, that’s perfectly fine and what’s expected to be done if there is any stat increase.

They only mentioned exotics as comparison because they were the highest stats at the time. Legendaries have always been meant to be best in slot along with special skins unless they decide to make something even harder to obtain and call them Godly or whatever. It’s just that you’ll always be able to have the same stats with a less interesting skin (which is subjective to begin with), but much easier to obtain item .

The point that they have to “BOOST” legendary weapons to a new stat level simply implies a new tier. The entire point was that exotic was the threshold. The fact that they are boosting the stats to one level of gear above exotics betrays the game.

KingClash.3186:

Woah.. This is the biggest crybaby thread for this game to date.
No one cares whatsoever if you leave the game so stop being attention w****s
Just be happy that something new is being introduced, that or just walk away; dont come to the forums and toss a mega hissy fit.
#Getoverit

Not very bright are you, Anet are using a business model build on micro transactions,
Losing players due to upsetting them is not good for business, look at other failed MMO`s due to upsetting their user base.

“We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.”

People are not stupid. They are going against the initial sell/mission statement for the game. All this means is that after 4 months they’re free to Romney the community again and we’re back in a thread similar to this one arguing semantics and definitions when the core issue is they have pulled a bait and switch with peoples expectations.

There’s no way to to spin that into a positive light.

A great content update marred by a potential deal breaker of this magnitude. Why? Why NOW?

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

Lothair.8942:

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

I just want as many of us to point out to their specific content leads, and producers, and game designers that have publically said one thing, and now going against it. I want to call them out as liars because that is what they are. I am pointing out that they promised and didnt deliver, buckling under the carrot on a stick pressure.

You don’t get a gameplay advantage from a Legendary. Legendary will always have the same stats as the highest non-Legendary item you can acquire in other, generally much easier and faster ways.

The only “advantage” of a Legendary is that it will increase in stats by itself if there is a new tier of armor appearing which is exactly how it should be given the amount of time and resources needed to obtain one.

So, when Eric Flannum says in the video “Legendaries wont be more powerful than the already existing top level Exotics”… That means that its OK for them to throw in better gear than exotics, and bump legendaries to that?

I call that a classic word play right there.

Yeah, that’s perfectly fine and what’s expected to be done if there is any stat increase.

They only mentioned exotics as comparison because they were the highest stats at the time. Legendaries have always been meant to be best in slot along with special skins. It’s just that you’ll always be able to have the same stats with a less interesting skin (which is subjective to begin with), but much easier to obtain item .

Right there you said it… They mentioned exotics because they were the highest stats at the time… until they created a new tier of gear called ascended. That sounds like a gear treadmill to me.

No where in that video, in any manifesto, in any interview or anything did they mention adding in additional gear that is higher than the current level of gear. Never. Not once. But they have said on multiple ocassions that there wont be a treadmill, no grinding, etc etc.

Anet is talking out of both sides of their mouth. They aren’t adding a gear treadmill yet they say they will continue to upgrade legendary items to be the best tier of gear as time goes on?

This entire idea would be fine if it did not include an increase in stats. The change to stats (no matter how small) amounts to a huge betrayal by Anet. To their fans like me, who appreciate easily accessible endgame gear that you don’t have to constantly update as time goes on unless you want a change in ascetics.

Anet is making a huge mistake catering to this crowd. They will be the first ones gone when the next big MMO is released and now so will people like me since GW2 just destroyed it’s niche.

Darx.9842:

Gee with that logic.. why even have levels? Let us just go do any area we want without a level?

The achievement of getting a level, getting new gear, getting to the next area.. It can all be applied to dungeons.

Well, its not the topic, but levels aren’t actually necessary to make an MMO. There are plenty of other ways to do content.

But, back on topic – so, no one can give a good argument why Agony/Infusion is a fun and interesting new game mechanic – one that challenges a player skill. All that’s been said is its a gear progression thing, a sense of “accomplishment”, etc.

Sort of proves my point – this new mechanic doesn’t add anything to the game to make it more interesting.

MrKnas.5193:

Our Studio Design Director Chris Whiteside just posted this:
“I’d like to respond to concerns players have raised about ascended items. Please keep in mind that we’re releasing this as one portion of a massive November update that introduces and improves many aspects of challenge, progression, and rewards. With this and upcoming updates, we view ourselves as introducing large amounts of content with supporting systems and features, akin to an expansion pack, building on Guild Wars 2 through a series of live releases. So it’s important for us to be able to add an expansion pack’s worth of progression and rewards to support that content.
Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.
Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content. PvP will remain unaffected to ensure our intended PvP balance going forward. We are also working on other reward and progression systems for the game that tie into current and new content and features. As you know we care very much about your support and opinion and are listening intently to what you say.
Finally we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the upcoming content, and we will ensure we share our thoughts with you on the experiences we share in the Lost Shores."
Chris Whiteside – Studio Design Director

Yes, we have seen it.

It’s like a sword cut to an ocean.

Even if the system that they try to build up between exotic and legendary succeeds, it will mean that if the economy continues to rely on cash-shop-bought-gold then it will mean that even less people will get a legendary because the inbetween tiers will take away everyone’s gold. In other words, it will just end up taking away even more gold from people, while still moving away from the Guild Wars model (so I don’t even now what we are talking about).

cesmode.4257:

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

Lothair.8942:

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

I just want as many of us to point out to their specific content leads, and producers, and game designers that have publically said one thing, and now going against it. I want to call them out as liars because that is what they are. I am pointing out that they promised and didnt deliver, buckling under the carrot on a stick pressure.

You don’t get a gameplay advantage from a Legendary. Legendary will always have the same stats as the highest non-Legendary item you can acquire in other, generally much easier and faster ways.

The only “advantage” of a Legendary is that it will increase in stats by itself if there is a new tier of armor appearing which is exactly how it should be given the amount of time and resources needed to obtain one.

So, when Eric Flannum says in the video “Legendaries wont be more powerful than the already existing top level Exotics”… That means that its OK for them to throw in better gear than exotics, and bump legendaries to that?

I call that a classic word play right there.

Yeah, that’s perfectly fine and what’s expected to be done if there is any stat increase.

They only mentioned exotics as comparison because they were the highest stats at the time. Legendaries have always been meant to be best in slot along with special skins. It’s just that you’ll always be able to have the same stats with a less interesting skin (which is subjective to begin with), but much easier to obtain item .

Right there you said it… They mentioned exotics because they were the highest stats at the time… until they created a new tier of gear called ascended. That sounds like a gear treadmill to me.

No where in that video, in any manifesto, in any interview or anything did they mention adding in additional gear that is higher than the current level of gear. Never. Not once. But they have said on multiple ocassions that there wont be a treadmill, no grinding, etc etc.

I don’t consider a 1-2% stat increase on items to be any advantage (remember we have 916 base stats), nor the appearance of any treadmill. That just means they want something between Exotics which are super easy to obtain and Legendaries which take months to a normal player. If you look at it another way, because they cannot increase stats, they came up with a mechanic that you cannot hit a monster for any significant damage until you did whatever action is required to lower their armor.

Besides, there will always be grinding. You are not getting a full set of say CoF armor in one dungeon clear, are you?

You are just complaining over nothing, you’ll see.

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

Lothair.8942:

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

I just want as many of us to point out to their specific content leads, and producers, and game designers that have publically said one thing, and now going against it. I want to call them out as liars because that is what they are. I am pointing out that they promised and didnt deliver, buckling under the carrot on a stick pressure.

You don’t get a gameplay advantage from a Legendary. Legendary will always have the same stats as the highest non-Legendary item you can acquire in other, generally much easier and faster ways.

The only “advantage” of a Legendary is that it will increase in stats by itself if there is a new tier of armor appearing which is exactly how it should be given the amount of time and resources needed to obtain one.

So, when Eric Flannum says in the video “Legendaries wont be more powerful than the already existing top level Exotics”… That means that its OK for them to throw in better gear than exotics, and bump legendaries to that?

I call that a classic word play right there.

Yeah, that’s perfectly fine and what’s expected to be done if there is any stat increase.

They only mentioned exotics as comparison because they were the highest stats at the time. Legendaries have always been meant to be best in slot along with special skins unless they decide to make something even harder to obtain and call them Godly or whatever. It’s just that you’ll always be able to have the same stats with a less interesting skin (which is subjective to begin with), but much easier to obtain item .

And either way you look at it, fact of the matter is that 100 to 1, more people are upset about this than are happy about it. People are just upset. Period. Nothing you say can change their minds. They/I feel somewhat lied to. End of story. Even if they are appeasing certain people, the majority does not approve. They’ve created a PR nightmare. This just wasnt very smart and the lack of responses from them and acknowledgement just compounds that.

They need to do a better job of cleaning up this mess, fast. Its Wednesday, the event starts Friday.

Im sure they can quickly code the ascended gear to be on the same level of stats as exotics, and remove any mention of ascended. They have two full days to do this. They better get moving if they wish to save their reputation.

If they did remove ascended, I will re-label them as a developer that listens to the vocal majority. Only one other developer has that honor, in my opinion. Trion.

ANet, this misstep has already damaged you.

For instance we are here talking about one single aspect of the patch, while there are many others that are ignored just because our concern about the new and wrong direction towards which you are steering the game has taken the stage.

Please act swiftly before more damage is done to your reputation and the hard work your teams have put into developing this patch, which has far more than just ascended gear in it.

If you will listen to our feedback like you did in the past, this time you need to do it quickly.

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

Lothair.8942:

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

I just want as many of us to point out to their specific content leads, and producers, and game designers that have publically said one thing, and now going against it. I want to call them out as liars because that is what they are. I am pointing out that they promised and didnt deliver, buckling under the carrot on a stick pressure.

You don’t get a gameplay advantage from a Legendary. Legendary will always have the same stats as the highest non-Legendary item you can acquire in other, generally much easier and faster ways.

The only “advantage” of a Legendary is that it will increase in stats by itself if there is a new tier of armor appearing which is exactly how it should be given the amount of time and resources needed to obtain one.

So, when Eric Flannum says in the video “Legendaries wont be more powerful than the already existing top level Exotics”… That means that its OK for them to throw in better gear than exotics, and bump legendaries to that?

I call that a classic word play right there.

Yeah, that’s perfectly fine and what’s expected to be done if there is any stat increase.

They only mentioned exotics as comparison because they were the highest stats at the time. Legendaries have always been meant to be best in slot along with special skins. It’s just that you’ll always be able to have the same stats with a less interesting skin (which is subjective to begin with), but much easier to obtain item .

Right there you said it… They mentioned exotics because they were the highest stats at the time… until they created a new tier of gear called ascended. That sounds like a gear treadmill to me.

No where in that video, in any manifesto, in any interview or anything did they mention adding in additional gear that is higher than the current level of gear. Never. Not once. But they have said on multiple ocassions that there wont be a treadmill, no grinding, etc etc.

I don’t consider a 1-2% stat increase on items to be any advantage (remember we have 916 base stats), nor the appearance of any treadmill. That just means they want something between Exotics which are super easy to obtain and Legendaries which take months to a normal player.

Besides, there will always be grinding. You are not getting a full set of say CoF armor in one dungeon clear, are you?

You are just complaining over nothing, you’ll see.

It’s about 8% per item.

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

Lothair.8942:

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

I just want as many of us to point out to their specific content leads, and producers, and game designers that have publically said one thing, and now going against it. I want to call them out as liars because that is what they are. I am pointing out that they promised and didnt deliver, buckling under the carrot on a stick pressure.

You don’t get a gameplay advantage from a Legendary. Legendary will always have the same stats as the highest non-Legendary item you can acquire in other, generally much easier and faster ways.

The only “advantage” of a Legendary is that it will increase in stats by itself if there is a new tier of armor appearing which is exactly how it should be given the amount of time and resources needed to obtain one.

So, when Eric Flannum says in the video “Legendaries wont be more powerful than the already existing top level Exotics”… That means that its OK for them to throw in better gear than exotics, and bump legendaries to that?

I call that a classic word play right there.

Yeah, that’s perfectly fine and what’s expected to be done if there is any stat increase.

They only mentioned exotics as comparison because they were the highest stats at the time. Legendaries have always been meant to be best in slot along with special skins. It’s just that you’ll always be able to have the same stats with a less interesting skin (which is subjective to begin with), but much easier to obtain item .

Right there you said it… They mentioned exotics because they were the highest stats at the time… until they created a new tier of gear called ascended. That sounds like a gear treadmill to me.

No where in that video, in any manifesto, in any interview or anything did they mention adding in additional gear that is higher than the current level of gear. Never. Not once. But they have said on multiple ocassions that there wont be a treadmill, no grinding, etc etc.

I don’t consider a 1-2% stat increase on items to be any advantage (remember we have 916 base stats), nor the appearance of any treadmill. That just means they want something between Exotics which are super easy to obtain and Legendaries which take months to a normal player.

You are just complaining over nothing, you’ll see.

Why didnt they announce this earlier? Before the game release? Why not in betas? Why not in interviews? Doing it after the games release gives people the wrong idea.

If this was planned, it should have been vocalized beforehand. If they had planned to add a new tier, Im sure we would be OK with it. Farm exotics until they release that ascended gear…We just feel blindsided.

and +5 power/precision/whatever on each item(compounded against eventually an entire set IS substantial). Apparently you dont do much wvw where sometimes you are left with a sliver of HP and the other guy is dead.

That latest post from Chris Whiteside just depresses me. I cared enough a few days ago to complain and hope they would listen. Now I’ve pretty much given up.

kistell.5684:

KingClash.3186:

Woah.. This is the biggest crybaby thread for this game to date.
No one cares whatsoever if you leave the game so stop being attention w****s
Just be happy that something new is being introduced, that or just walk away; dont come to the forums and toss a mega hissy fit.
#Getoverit

Not very bright are you, Anet are using a business model build on micro transactions,
Losing players due to upsetting them is not good for business, look at other failed MMO`s due to upsetting their user base.

Exactly.
Remember that it’s not the most hardcore of players that spend the most on Gems – they buy them for the hoardes of in-game gold they accumulate.
The whole system was designed with casual players as Gem suppliers in mind: they are to buy them to “save time”.

Who is, in general, the most annoyed with gear treadmills (not always, for example I consider my gf a hardcore player: while she disagrees, she hates gear treadmill anyway)?
Who is the most hit by a new tier of gear and so soon, after they worked so hard for their Exotic sets?

But somehow Arena Net still decided to chase and try to please crowd which burns trhough content with inhuman speed to cry for more, and which by general does not spend much real money on Gems because they can afford to buy all they need via in-game money. What will new tier change? They will have their Ascended gear in a week or two and they will cry for more, a fools game that can’t be win that way.

This decision is – for me – bad for Guild Wars 2 business model, for the community, and it gives ANet a bad PR for breaking design principles they promised to hold.

I’m a casual player who dwells mostly in WvWvW. Ive got Karma gear and play a ranger, for the most part Im happy with my set up and understand my class. I dont want to grind again it took a lot of effort to get this gear.

So one of you kind souls spell this out for me because Anet says no grind, I see grind. In order to stay competitive in WvWvW am I going to have to grind this new armor? Thats a game killer for me, I just want to play WvWvW a few nights a week and be competitive, I dont want to grind.

thanks in advance.

“Our intentions are not to create a gear treadmill… what we are proposing is a gear treadmill but calling it something else because gear treadmill is a bad word. NO we will not promise to never do it again, but we’ll try not to do it every 3 months. Maybe 4-6? See you at the gem shop folks!” -ANet

My problem is not only that I love the old GW1 system where you get to max level and have max gear reasonably fast without grind, but also that I am just finishing my current exotic gear after long hours within 3 months. Not to mention prec/tough/cond max gear is exotic armor plus GREEN and BLUE accessories. WTF.

Now I am told that I need to gear up AGAIN just after I am getting a hold of this. This is just ridiculous. Not to mention I have exotic gear on just one of my 4 active characters. How I am supposed to experience all classes and whatsoever if I need to grind gear for just one character all the time.

I sincerely hope this new gear does not require any grind. Avoiding any kind of grind is my only reason for playing this game. I just want to have fun teamplay with guildies or just random ppl I run into. It stops being fun when we are limited by gear and it does matter when going in dungeons or wvw. For me it seems this new gear is remarkably better than just exotics.

I just want to add my discontent with adding new tiers of gear. Even if Anet doesn’t call it a gear treadmill, higher stats are higher stats. I don’t want to worry about having to catch up on content if I take a break. This is breaking a promise from the original design of the game as advertised and I am extremely disappointed. You can add me to the list of people who don’t plan on buying any more gems from the cash shop.

Urxx.6840:

ANet, this misstep has already damaged you.

For instance we are here talking about one single aspect of the patch, while there are many others that are ignored just because our concern about the new and wrong direction towards which you are steering the game has taken the stage.

Please act swiftly before more damage is done to your reputation and the hard work your teams have put into developing this patch, which has far more than just ascended gear in it.

If you will listen to our feedback like you did in the past, this time you need to do it quickly.

I agree. I see nothing on the forums or in map chat about anything else being injected into the game this weekend. I think that is self exlpanitory that this decision was too volatile and should be removed. I dont even know whats going on with the rest of the patch because I frankly dont care at this point. Im pissed.

Conner.4702:

Different stat stacking was always possible in GW1. It’s just your character would look horrid. Insignias and inscriptions added convenience. It didn’t add a new layer on top of the old one, which is what is happening here.
Also just because other games do this doesn’t mean every game should. Those other games were designed with it in mind from the start. that’s a very big difference you are ignoring there.

I’m not ignoring anything, i’m saying that there were plenty of people outraged over gear changes in GW and that progressed throughout the game’s life. There were a TON of original mechanics that got nerfed or buffed in GW. I’m also not saying that that just because other games change their mechanics, it gives ANet a pass to do so. I’m fine with the change and as i said am sadden that people have gotten quite irate over this change. Change is good when there’s some logic behind it and it makes sense to me why they went this direction. Ultimately people will accept the change or move along. I’m quite happy they listened to the players and i’m sure they will do so here as well, insuring this future gear treadmill issue as it stands now will be forgotten. It’s not even live and people are in outrage… it’s very sad the fanbase turned so quickly, only to judge a future strategy that most likely won’t exist.

Flynch.6034:

Caran.3217:

My entire point is on the ambiguity of the info we have and the assumptions being made. If Agony is a gate mechanic then yes we have ourselves a gear grind that is dependent on how long it takes to grind. After all, Exotics could be classed as a gear-grind as they are premium gear but because they don’t take that long, noone complains.

If players are able to see all of the content, yet when they repeat the content subsequently when Agony kicks in, then it’s not gated. (in my opinion)

The second point I probably didn’t explain quite so well. But if I have an exotic and my friend has an exotic, the stats may differ wildly. If I want to re-build my character to have greater survivability then I have to grind for that new rune etc. Hope that is clearer.

ps i’m tired today and had real trouble with the quote so had to rewrite this :s

You’re trying to evade the problem, that’s how i read your reasoning i’m sorry to say.

It does not matter if people can see/experience all the content in ‘circle one’ if they have to get new gear in order to progress to ‘circle two’ eventually. Not to mention that a new dungeon added in the future may simply require a minimum radiance ‘level’. But that would be guessing all right. Still, as many others have said, it is against ANet’s originally stated design principles.

As for the current exotics – it is your choice which stats you get on them. Your ‘build’ is your choice. You can have multiple sets of gear to boost certain builds if you desire so, all your choices. The gear is still the best available and there is no upgrade stat-wise, no matter how small. Adding anything on top breaks the current balance.

geezus…..

okay people, its not a must have set of gear because the stat gain is so stupidly marginally low that the difference in dmg from you to a guy that does have the ascended gear is…

you hit for 1011 , he hits for 1022 , NOTHING to cry about and make this fuzz, man the mmo generation these days are the most self entitled, whiny pubescent little angst filled people…kitten….this is why my xbox is rotting and i tend to play pc games , if i wanted brats acting spoiled all the time id play xbox live call of duty or some other kitten flytrap available for it ….this community was so nice wth happened ?

Esorono.1039:

Conner.4702:

JSmooth.7654:

There are 138 pages of this… So, I don’t know if this link has been posted or not.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Those of you who are worried about the stat increase should read this. I was very worried about it too. However, this response from Anet helped put me at ease.

Atryue
lvl 80 Guard on Anvil Rock

Don’t see how a post that contradicts itself would relieve worry.

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.

Because it was a lie, Arena-Net lied once, they are doing it again. They are just masking the treadmill in a different way by making more powerful infusions over time. By the end of 2013 it will be very common for people to be shouting “LFM Ascalon Catacombs, need full Ascension with the infusion from floor 10,000!” It’s the same old MMO grind with a mask.

Totally agree,
this is bullkitten, bullkitten, they dont want the gear grind treadmill, even the legendary add one extra stats will auto generate the best desire gear of all.
Anet lie bout boosting the precursor chance, Lie
Anet with Mad King event, worst mmo event ever
Now this bullkitten.

Not Cool, Guys, not cool.
Right now I spent about 3 hours a day grinding for skin. (I already have exotic)
With the new tier coming out I’m going to be spending 30 minutes more grinding that extra dungeon for Ascended Gear.

That’s 3 and a half hours I spend grinding for stuff.

Not cool.

MrDmajor.7084:

“Our intentions are not to create a gear treadmill… what we are proposing is a gear treadmill but calling it something else because gear treadmill is a bad word. NO we will not promise to never do it again, but we’ll try not to do it every 3 months. Maybe 4-6? See you at the gem shop folks!” -ANet

This is exactly how I read it, too.

Also, “not full equipment at once, so it’s less obvious for you”.
So depressing.

Sdric.8526:

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill.

thats why we decided to create a gear treadmill.

The only thing to make this post even more meaningful is with the photo of Greek Ancient Aliens guy.

Thanks ANUT for catering to the norm….and then trying to defend the lies you fed me.

I can’t for epic level equipment. But don’t worry guys its only minimully different! Its progression because Epic equipment needs to be double infused. *End sarcasm!

Why can’t we just get our normal gear Infused…..now to be fully geared I HAVE to craft a legendary item and I have to hunt up to a new tier. GW:EOTN showed you could release an entire new game of content all while keeping levels, weps, armor, stats, runes, items the exact same..

What happened……

I think we’re taking this way too far now. From what I am seeing there is nothing to indicate they intended to introduce a global threadmill, seems to me they want to create a dungeon that has a “threadmill” for people who just love progression. That all depends on infusions, if infusions effect only the karka then the whole progression will be just limited to that right?

In conclusion I think they’re just trying to give something to everyone. If they focus the progression play on one dungeon.. is that really that bad?

Also something that really puzzled me was this statement:
As we introduce the new high-level content, we’ll also roll out complimentary Ascended and Legendary items (to say nothing of the other rewards you can earn by playing the content).

Does that mean they’re giving away ascended and legendary items with new content releases? Perhaps they want to allow everyone to have the basic ascended gear specifically so WvW players will not have to work for it while at the same time people looking for progression can play the dungeon for better skins and to improve infusions allowing them to tackle harder levels for perhaps even better skins and more infusions?

I dont know, there is so much we dont know yet I just dont see all the doom and gloom people are seeing even though I repeat I would have been a lot more happy had ascended gear carried the same stats as exotic!

Of course it would have been much better if they still gave ascended armor the same stats as exotics but if its a one time deal its not really that bad!

So what do I base my assumptions on?
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

Players who wish to delve deep into the Fractals will find that Agony makes progress increasingly difficult, until they reach the point where some defense against this condition is a must.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451
Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two

I personally think this statement is being missinterpreted a lot.
People are taking this to mean that ascended armor was mean to fill the stats gab between exotic and legendary (which obviously doesnt event exist) but personally thats not what I understood. I understood that ascended armor is meant to fit in between exotic and legendary (thus bridging the huge gap between how much work is required to get an exotic and how much work is required to get legendary) WITHOUT making ascended armor a whole new tier on its own. And to me they dont seem to be a whole new tier they’re more like 1/2 a tier. Opal Orichalcum Ring + Exquisite Opal Jewel = 63 power and 63 precision while Opal Mithril Ring + Embellished Brilliant Opal Jewel (chose this because this is 375 skill level item which is what rare items to exotics are) 55 power and 55 precision which means exotic is 13% better while Ascended has 68 power and 68 precision making it only 7%-8% better

Of course I know the story is different if you consider magic find, but its hard to objectively calculate magic find since it doesnt follow the same point system and ultiamtely a state that reduces power not increases it, would have been better if they chose an example that didnt have a percentage attribute. But then again if we take such items, say rare invader ring to exotic invader ring. The large point attribute Power is 67 on exotic and 59 on rare which makes 12%, consistant with the other stats increases, no reason to really think that will be any different here.

All in all I would have prefered if ascended armor had the same stats as exotics but I do think people are now blowing this way too out of proportion. Even where WvW is concerned, I never really understood why people feel its so important to have the best armor. I really dont believe it makes that much of a difference. Player skill is way more important. I had instances when wearing rare armor I ended up in fights with odds such as 3:1 and still won, there was an instance in which 2 large groups came head to head, ours was at least 1/2 the size of our enemies and we won! cant believe it to this day and had also instances where my group outnumbered our enemies and they still won. From my experiance, supporting each other is a lot more important in WvW then personal power. having the best armor will obviously help a little but not having it will not really mean anything of note!

This company has been playing real nasty with GW2. From gambling on Halloween to flat out breaking it’s manifesto. All within 2 1/2 months mind you.

These guys are setting a hell of a pace.

munkiman.3068:

Ultimately people will accept the change or move along.

Just hope this thread is not a hint on how many will move along. It’s not fun when servers are empty and game companies start to merge them.

You people complain about gear treadmill, yet they had to come up with a whole mechanic system to make you unable to damage the new mobs before doing specific tasks BECAUSE they cannot add a real gear treadmill. Add to that a specific condition to not to increase normal stats, again…

There aren’t many ways to make content harder and give you progression without lowering your character efficiency in some way. You can improve AI and make fights require better coordination, but then there is a clear limit to what you can ask from players again based on basic human limits.

For those who are enthused about this decision and are terming those who dislike it ‘casual players’, let it be known that many people on this thread have spent thousands of hours in GW1, and hundreds in GW2. So far, I have racked up 983 hours of gametime in GW2, including all the ‘high level content’ where higher stats give you an edge, such as dungeons and WvW. Were 10-25 man dungeons ever introduced, I would play them.

This latest decision by Anet is disheartening. I enjoyed GW1, in part, because I never had to worry about my gear. I thought that GW2 would follow similar principles as Arenanet led people to believe this would bew the case. While Ascended gear isn’t a dealbreaker for me, another tier, and another would put me off buying into their products further down the line.

To quote the other thread since I can’t think of a better way to say it…

MrDmajor.7084:

“Our intentions are not to create a gear treadmill… what we are proposing is a gear treadmill but calling it something else because gear treadmill is a bad word. NO we will not promise to never do it again, but we’ll try not to do it every 3 months. Maybe 4-6? See you at the gem shop folks!” -ANet

They couldn’t design better events, or even improve the open world, so they went for a knee jerk bandaid fix. I won’t be grinding infusion gear so I guess I’ll never see late stages of Fractals. Thanks for giving me content that I’m excluded from, content I’ll never see. Sosad to see yet another wow copycat.

I just finished grinding my exotics and nightmare set. And I can’t even wear my sick new gear in the later stages of Fractals. Agony is such a pathetic attempt at improving endgame. I guess designing more interesting encounters and cool armor sets was the harder thing to do so they just bypassed it.

Rhyaehar.9504:

kistell.5684:

KingClash.3186:

Woah.. This is the biggest crybaby thread for this game to date.
No one cares whatsoever if you leave the game so stop being attention w****s
Just be happy that something new is being introduced, that or just walk away; dont come to the forums and toss a mega hissy fit.
#Getoverit

Not very bright are you, Anet are using a business model build on micro transactions,
Losing players due to upsetting them is not good for business, look at other failed MMO`s due to upsetting their user base.

Exactly.
Remember that it’s not the most hardcore of players that spend the most on Gems – they buy them for the hoardes of in-game gold they accumulate.
The whole system was designed with casual players as Gem suppliers in mind: they are to buy them to “save time”.

Who is, in general, the most annoyed with gear treadmills (not always, for example I consider my gf a hardcore player: while she disagrees, she hates gear treadmill anyway)?
Who is the most hit by a new tier of gear and so soon, after they worked so hard for their Exotic sets?

But somehow Arena Net still decided to chase and try to please crowd which burns trhough content with inhuman speed to cry for more, and which by general does not spend much real money on Gems because they can afford to buy all they need via in-game money. What will new tier change? They will have their Ascended gear in a week or two and they will cry for more, a fools game that can’t be win that way.

This decision is – for me – bad for Guild Wars 2 business model, for the community, and it gives ANet a bad PR for breaking design principles they promised to hold.

Very true and a very good post.

Caran.3217:

Flynch.6034:

Caran.3217:

My entire point is on the ambiguity of the info we have and the assumptions being made. If Agony is a gate mechanic then yes we have ourselves a gear grind that is dependent on how long it takes to grind. After all, Exotics could be classed as a gear-grind as they are premium gear but because they don’t take that long, noone complains.

If players are able to see all of the content, yet when they repeat the content subsequently when Agony kicks in, then it’s not gated. (in my opinion)

The second point I probably didn’t explain quite so well. But if I have an exotic and my friend has an exotic, the stats may differ wildly. If I want to re-build my character to have greater survivability then I have to grind for that new rune etc. Hope that is clearer.

ps i’m tired today and had real trouble with the quote so had to rewrite this :s

You’re trying to evade the problem, that’s how i read your reasoning i’m sorry to say.

It does not matter if people can see/experience all the content in ‘circle one’ if they have to get new gear in order to progress to ‘circle two’ eventually. Not to mention that a new dungeon added in the future may simply require a minimum radiance ‘level’. But that would be guessing all right. Still, as many others have said, it is against ANet’s originally stated design principles.

As for the current exotics – it is your choice which stats you get on them. Your ‘build’ is your choice. You can have multiple sets of gear to boost certain builds if you desire so, all your choices. The gear is still the best available and there is no upgrade stat-wise, no matter how small. Adding anything on top breaks the current balance.

Well i’m not trying to evade anything really. My opinion is still undecided on the whole thing. If you guys are right, then it’s bad news for Anet as things will rapidly sour. However, if the dungeon works differently and the gear is not a requirement, or at the very least, is something easy to get prior to hitting the ‘Agony wall’ then honestly, that’s fine. It’s no different to grinding dungeons for tokens to get better gear that allows you to complete harder dungeons atm.

And the reason I brought up the runes about exotics, is that if they are to bring out new craftable runes that can be slotted into exotics with +2 or 3 point increase across the board, then not only does that mean you can have more freedom with what armour you have in the closet, it also might mean that Exotic armours remain BIS and are not made redundant.

But to sum up – if it goes south, then yes i’ll be annoyed. If Anet keep the playing field balanced, but want to introduce a new set of gear for lateral progression, then i’m kosher with that.

We’ll only know once Anet either give us all the info or we just have to wait til it’s out. In the meantime, i’m focussing on what new content will be out – pretty stoked for it either way!

I wish someone would go through 140 pages of this and add up the number of unique responders not agreeing with the change compared to those agreeing. Too bad I have a full time job!

“Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.”

Read this and stop complaining, they did it only to put a little progression between exotics and legendary, they are not going to put a gear progression and they are not going to put more tiers, they just want to make sure that between exotic and legendary there is another tier that fill the gap between them, that’s all

Lothair.8942:

tkalamba.2541:

Snerf.1650:

While I appreciate a response, what I don’t understand is why he feels that there is a stat gap between exotic and legendary that needs bridging.

There is no stat gap at all, let alone one that needs bridging.

There is an effort gap, but as long as the only difference is a skin and “prestige” there is no issue.

It’s only by instituting a stat gap with this update that there would ever be a need to bridge it.

What I’m reading by the dev response, is a solution to a problem that only exists by implementing this solution…. They are in essence creating the problem, then implementing a half-fix simultaneously.

Does that seem odd to anyone else?

I think you’re missing the point. It’s not a stat gap they are referring to. It’s the gap between earning exotics, which is incredibly easy to do (I got my full set of armour, and my weapons in less than 3 days after hitting 80) and getting a Legendary (which most players aren’t even close to acquiring)

Ascended Items fill the gap in item acquisition between Legendary and Exotic. It’s not stats they are talking about.

You still don’t get it – they are adding more powerful armor & weapons – that and only that is true (creating a gear treadmill).

They are buffing legendary to be on the same level of ascended moving forward. Legendary was just a cosmetic look and that’s about it. It’s not meant to be something the general population obtain (hence: Legendary).

A gear treadmill generally prevents one from progressing in content, and adds a significant advantage over existing gear. The fact you cannot upgrade this new gear, which is disadvantageous, and the fact that it is coming in between existing tiers is not the same as adding new weapons that are +100 power over existing gear, and you can’t do everything due to lacking this new gear. I can still run the Fractal dungeon, even without Agony protection for quite a while, I can still play WvW. I can still grind Orr, I can still explore, I can still do jumping puzzles and I can still remain competitive in sPvP. Sure, they are upgrading the stats of Legendaries, which may I add, were more powerful than Exotics in beta. It’s still not the same as what we have traditionally seen as a gear treadmill in past games.

There are many exotics I’d prefer over using the new Ascended gear specifically due to the fact I can pick and choose what upgrades I use. The precedent being set here with Ascended specifcally shows I cannot upgrade the gear, which means future armour and weapons will not be able to use Sigils and Runes. So even with built in stat upgrades, the bonuses usually awarded based on Runes and Sigils will likely not be included. This in turn means that Exotic gear will still be widely used, and will still be needed therefore not negating its effectiveness. You will only ever really need the Agony protection if you plan on running the dungeon constantly. What if I’m using a more balanced build, rather than maxing out a possible pair of stats? Items like a Tri-Forge pendant (An item that already has set a precedent of being imbalanced compared to comparable items) will benefit balanced builds over min/max builds. Considering my overall stats barely make a difference in WvW (which will 80% devolve in mass warfare, where individual stats mean nothing) Gear plays a less important role than many players emphasize.

and before anyone mentions the other Infusions (offensive and whatnot) the current Infusion only provides a benefit of protection from one condition in a dungeon. It can probably be safe to say the others will act in a similar nature, offensive allow us to kill particularly buffed NPC’s in a new dungeon or whatnot. The infusions do not provide the benefits of stat increases, or other bonuses commonly found in upgrade slots. And whos to say they wont add additional upgrades to further make Ascended gear nothing more than optional?

Lothair.8942:

I wish someone would go through 140 pages of this and add up the number of unique responders not agreeing with the change compared to those agreeing. Too bad I have a full time job!

The vast majority of the ones agreeing are not posting, they just had a smile after reading the news and are playing.

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

You people complain about gear treadmill, yet they had to come up with a whole mechanic system to make you unable to damage the new mobs before doing specific tasks BECAUSE they cannot add a real gear treadmill. Add to that a specific condition to not to increase normal stats, again…

There aren’t many ways to make content harder and give you progression without lowering your character efficiency in some way. You can improve AI and make fights require better coordination, but then there is a clear limit to what you can ask from players again based on basic human limits.

You could have achieved the same thing without introducing a new tier of gear and without limiting infusions to that tier and legendaries.

I’m not upset about agony and infusions. It could actually prove to be a fun and interesting mechanic. What I don’t like is that first they say nothing will be more powerful than exotics and then they force you to thrash them if you want to experience new content.

That’s very disappointing. I thought ANet was another kind of company.