Guild Wars 2

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

Crovax.7854:

Vayne.8563:

Crovax.7854:

Scryeless.1924:

Using these items as a method for measuring trends of any sort will only show you a small trend of a small population that use these items. It doesn’t represent a trend of any kind for the games they are playing.

Here is the difference. A: Anet, using actual numbers from server data, releasing a statement on trends of players. -is different from- B: The developers of these items, using numbers from their server data, release a statement on the trends of users of their software.

This is like a journalist writing a story about the overall health of the education system in Country XXX using the truancy data from one school instead of going to the Country’s School Truancy Data Collection point and using all of the numbers.

Shhh! Vayne doesn’t tolerate objections. You should know that after reading through his posting history :P

I guess personal attacks are all you can do when you have nothing left to say that’s actually on topic or accurate.

People have been telling you since page one that those numbers are not representative. You chose to ignore it. I told you that the game feels more empty and tried to make the point that even if what you are saying is right, for me and the people I play with the game feels mor empty. You tried to prove a subjective opinion wrong.

That alone shows what kind of person you are Not that anyone who frequents the forums doesn’t already know that.
Instead of attacking anyone who isn’t of your opinion, try a middle ground: You think that the number you give show a trend. Other people don’t. Accept that.

you guys dont get statistics, you dont actually need to take all statistics to find out what the truth is. If you look at a representive sample, you do generally find useful information.
The only one that specifically bothers me, is overwolf, and thats because they entered a partnership with anet, and because they decide activity based on having logged in while using an overwolf app (like teamspeak) within the last month.

Point is, he is right, you dont need to poll everyone at a pretty good idea whats going on. Perfect example is exit polls for elections, which usually give a pretty good idea whats going on (not always perfect but good enough) Quality control also tends to use representive samples.

lets say rapter tracked 10,000 people who randomly use their app, 2000 bought guild wars, later you see 500 people still playing it.
No it doesnt mean GW lost 75% of its population, but it does tell you there was a signifigant drop off. lets say it climbs back up to 2100, it tells you that GW is trending upward.

The only time the info gets messed up, is when for some reason the people they track no longer become a random sampling, lets say rapt bashes anet every day, or the rapt app starts causing gw to crash.

anyhow, i dont agree with everything vayne says, but studying the trends here is not wrong, and likely his statements regarding how comparitively successful is accurate. I would not be surprised if FF is only doing a little better (in pure logins) than gw2, or if archeage is fairly popular right now.

I do understand the concept of measuring statistics based on representative samples. That is why I dont put much weight on these sites. There is nothing presented to demonstrate that their sampling methodology generates a representative result.

Listening to them is not significantly, if any, more rasonable than going by members of my GW1 multi-guild alliance retention rate in GW2. One guild has perhaps a 5% retention rate here. That matches up to the retention rate in a second guild from the alliance. A third guild has a lower rate. Others in the alliance even lower. Now that I have examples from multiple sources should I take them as representative samples that demonstrate a less than 1% retention rate over all for GW2?

Of course not.

do you have a reason to believe their sample is biased? Guilds are obviously biased, people who play together whoms friends leave more likely to leave, friends stay more likely to stay. Also guilds tend to form around similar interests.

As far as i know these are just the people who use this software. For example, me on teamspeak, which turns out to be an overwolf app. I have very little in common with other TS users other than the fact i use voice com outside of the game.

Anyhow, im not suggesting its perfect. But it has means more than no data at all, and it is consistent with most known facts and observable trends.

phys.7689:

do you have a reason to believe their sample is biased? Guilds are obviously biased, people who play together whoms friends leave more likely to leave, friends stay more likely to stay. Also guilds tend to form around similar interests.

As far as i know these are just the people who use this software. For example, me on teamspeak, which turns out to be an overwolf app. I have very little in common with other TS users other than the fact i use voice com outside of the game.

Anyhow, im not suggesting its perfect. But it has means more than no data at all, and it is consistent with most known facts and observable trends.

Its not a matter believing that there is some form of bias but rather that there is, by definition, bias inherent to those sites. They only measure the activity of those inclined to use third party software to overlay/interact with their game experience. Without anything to indicate that such is representative of the GW2 community as a whole the source is questionable at best.

As to my guild/alliance in GW, it existed as a place to cater to as wide a variety of playstyles, demographics, and personalities as possible. At just shy of a thousand members, with a 2-3 guild waiting list for entry the alliance was nothing close to a close-knit group of similar players.

The sample size from xfire looks abysmal small. All you need to do is get a few computer and turn it on 24/7 and you can manipulate the rankings.

I’m not sure how large the sample size from raptor or overwolf is. What does it mean exactly when they say GW2 is ranked 10. How many actual session did they recorded.

Anyhow I’m not sure why we are discussing this tools. Don’t seem related to GW2 that much.

Does Xfire sayingcall of duty 2 and 4 are more popular than LoL, WoW, dota 2 and minecraft not say anything s.at all? This is a serious question.

Beldin.5498:

In the end you just said what we all now, that a lot of MMO player are just like locusts .. they consume content and go to the “next big thing”. Be it ESO or WS or AA or Black Desert, or Generic Asia Grinder 4711 .. or even some single player games .. or whatever.

Guild Wars 2 is the first MMO I played (not counting text MUDs in the 1980s). I have map completion on one character and enjoyed and still enjoy some PvE play, but I now spend most of my time in WvW. I play a lot but I’m not a great player and I’m not a hardcore player and do dungeons and a lot of other content casually.

What led me to try ESO and Archeage wasn’t that I’m a locust looking for the “next big thing” full of content to consume. What made me try those games is that Guild Wars 2 seems to be moving in a direction away from what I enjoy about the game, not simply through neglect of the elements I like but also changing them for the worst or eliminating them.

I enjoyed seeing the same people from my server every day in world events. I enjoyed trying to do The Frozen Maw with only a 5-10 people. I enjoyed roaming Malchor’s Leap or Southsun Cove, only occasionally running into a friend or another farmer, so they felt like an empty frontier. And I enjoyed the event chains at Orr leading to the temples being open only being done occasionally so that completing those events or finding a temple open felt special, not routine. Yes, it was annoying that my server couldn’t really do Taquatl or some of the later Living Story events and I needed to guest or join a special guild if I wanted to complete them, but I was fine with that.

The megaservers took that away from me by giving me zergs everywhere and it seems pretty clear to me that the direction the game is moving is toward more, more, more events with commander tags and zergs and anyone without top-end hardware playing at 1-2 frames per second. That’s a move away from what I enjoyed, since the original Taquatl (before it was changed) was an event I did regularly, sometimes with only a few people and the early Living Story elements were not something that required a zerg to complete.

That suggests ArenaNet’s direction is toward bigger zergier events that require massive DPS to complete. Yes, it’s great getting the Taquatl loot and the Karka Queen loot but I see those events largely as grindy chores that I show up for an push one to collect a reward, not challenging events that I enjoy doing with a few random people I might run into every day. I’m sure there are people who enjoy the zergs, but it’s not my personal idea of fun. I’m concerned about the forced merger of servers in WvW for the same reason. I don’t want to be forced into zerg play there, either.

The friend who got me into Guild Wars 2, who bought a computer just to play it, who played daily, who has something like two-dozen character slots, who spent plenty in the gem store, and who accumulated over 10,000 achievement points hasn’t played in (just checked) exactly 3 months now. He didn’t leave Guild Wars 2 for another game like a locust. He just stopped playing because they broke Guild Wars 2 for him with their changes. He would pay in the early morning and no longer saw the same people every day doing things with him because the megaservers destroyed that community (more on that in a moment). He bought casual outfits for many of his characters that he color coded, which were also ruined for him. He basically recruited for the game and had recently gotten a casual player into the game to play with him, but she largely stopped playing when he did.

A second friend took longer but he’s also largely stopped playing for the same reason. They just don’t have fun with the zerged world boss events, champions, and maps in general.

The megaservers also destroyed the server community for WvW. One can no longer recruit players or ask for WvW help in map chat from their server in PvE. The megaservers also hurt the server community for role-players, who now have to guild together or even party together if they want to wind up on the same maps with each other.

That points to another direction the game is moving that doesn’t interest me — organized guild play. I’m not interested in joining a club or taking on a second job and recent threads suggest a move toward making guilds more important. I know there are people who want and enjoy that, but moving the game in that direction moves the game away from casual players not interested in that.

The Living Story has also turned into a grind for me such that I’ve stopped doing it. And I’m not eager to do many of the holiday events for the same reason. All of this suggests to me that the game is catering to the locusts, the players who want to grind, the players who want to be fed more limited time content, and the players who want bigger, zergier battles.

Maybe I’m the minority and maybe ArenaNet can afford to alienate me and my friends from the game so we stop playing, but if I leave, it won’t be because I’m looking for the latest new thing and will be because Guild Wars 2 has left me behind and isn’t interested in supporting the same sort of pay that they once did support and that I enjoyed. And in the case of my friends, they didn’t leave to play another game. They just stopped playing Guild Wars 2 from having played it daily.

Vayne.8563:

I think Guild Wars 2’s success (at least compared to most MMOs released) is that it didn’t try to copy the WoW formula and tried to create a different kind of experience, which the core game still is.

I think that’s true, however as a person new to MMOs who was recruited by a player attracted to Guild Wars 2 because it was different but who has stopped playing, my concern is that Guild Wars 2 is moving away from what made it different and good toward what hardcore WvW players expect. Why are the new events all about massive zergs, DPS, and time limits? Why are the megaserver caps set so high? What kind of experience is a new player in the Wayfarer Foothills who wanders in to the Frozen Maw with a 15th level character going to have? Will they be able to see what’s going on in the center of the zerg or even do enough damage to get credit for the event?

The reason I didn’t spend more time with ESO, after spending weekend playing it during the late beta, was the monthly fee. The combat experience was worse but there were some things I liked about ESO better, but I wasn’t going to obligate myself to play by paying a monthly fee. The reason I gave up on Archeage, which also had a worse combat experience but I liked some of the sandbox elements, was the Labor Points. I didn’t like being time gated to harvest and craft, but Guild Wars 2 has been adding time gating. If you need to artificially time gate what the players do in the game, that suggests something more deeply is wrong with the design of the game.

Wow this topic is of no value — other than a soap box for Vayne (not that he needs any more of those, you’d think his feet are getting tired by now).

I think GW2 is doing fine. It’s not nearly as busy as when it launched two years ago. You can argue that’s expected.

So If the point of this thread is to say “GW2 is not dead”, then sure, I agree. However I wouldn’t try and say it’s doing better than it was two years, or even just one year ago.

But again, who cares — it’s not important, other than for kitten satisfaction at who can craft the best argument in a useless topic.

juno.1840:

Wow this topic is of no value — other than a soap box for Vayne (not that he needs any more of those, you’d think his feet are getting tired by now).

I think GW2 is doing fine. It’s not nearly as busy as when it launched two years ago. You can argue that’s expected.

So If the point of this thread is to say “GW2 is not dead”, then sure, I agree. However I wouldn’t try and say it’s doing better than it was two years, or even just one year ago.

But again, who cares — it’s not important, other than for kitten satisfaction at who can craft the best argument in a useless topic.

Except that people are saying it’s dying and that it will be dead in a year. No one is arguing it has more people than launch. That’s a fool’s errand.

But since people do seem to be saying the game is actually dying and won’t be here in a year, I think it’s worth pointing out the counterpoint.

How come when people repeatedly say the game is dying or going to die, you don’t say they’re on a soap box. Sounds remarkably like bias to me.

When people say Xfire’s most popular game means nothing, they’re right. When people say Raptr’s most played games means nothing. they’re right. When they say Overwolf’s most popular games mean nothing, they’re right. Individually they mean nothing. However, one thing these sites have is their own tracking based on their own statistics.

Sure any one of them is going to be biased to the players that play them. But here we have three different sites, not depending on common tracking but their own tracking, each providing relatively similar results.

This is how historians piece together history. It’s how people solve crimes. No two witness statements ever really agree. But if you get enough people basically saying the same thing, you can get some evidence from that…even though it’s not cut and dried evidence.

You start taking into account google trends and reddit figures, and you’ll find a lot of people are still into this game, or at least are still playing it.

You might argue they’re playing it because there’s nothing else better and I’d agree. If there was something better they might be playing that. If there were something better, I might be playing it too. But it doesn’t change anything. It means people are still playing this game. Quite a few people from the looks of it.

It’s easy to say that Raptr statistically means nothing, because it’s correct. But three independent trackers, each tracking their own players (and not each others) are more likely right than wrong.

I can’t imagine how anyone would think otherwise.

Vayne.8563:

It’s easy to say that Raptr statistically means nothing, because it’s correct. But three independent trackers, each tracking their own players (and not each others) are more likely right than wrong.

I can’t imagine how anyone would think otherwise.

First I do want to clarify that I disagree with those who claim that the game is dead, will be dead in six months, etc.

Three sites which all share the same or similar bias(es) are not more likely right than wrong unless their bias(es) are shared by the majority, which has not been demonstrated to be the case here. If you choose to restrict your selection to sites, individuals, etc that all share the same or similar bias(es) you are going to get consensus in the results even if those results are not representative of the population being measured as a whole. If I were to poll only Liberals about a political topic I am very likely to get a liberal consensus even if they are not representative of the majority (note that this is not a liberal vs conservative commentary as I am using this only as an example).

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

It’s easy to say that Raptr statistically means nothing, because it’s correct. But three independent trackers, each tracking their own players (and not each others) are more likely right than wrong.

I can’t imagine how anyone would think otherwise.

First I do want to clarify that I disagree with those who claim that the game is dead, will be dead in six months, etc.

Three sites which all share the same or similar bias(es) are not more likely right than wrong unless their bias(es) are shared by the majority, which has not been demonstrated to be the case here. If you choose to restrict your selection to sites, individuals, etc that all share the same or similar bias(es) you are going to get consensus in the results even if those results are not representative of the population being measured as a whole. If I were to poll only Liberals about a political topic I am very likely to get a liberal consensus even if they are not representative of the majority (note that this is not a liberal vs conservative commentary as I am using this only as an example).

you have yet to demonstrate why the fact that they track people who use some form of their software is a bias that makes the players more likely to fall on the same side of game play habits.

Lets say instead of polling liberal, i poll people who have cell phones, what makes you think people who have cell phones are more likely to fall on the same side of a political debate?

It’s true that there is no evidence that the samples are not statistically significant. There is also no evidence they are. We don’t have all the numbers. Statistical significance cannot be demonstrated without them. The only numbers I saw are on XFire, with somewhere between 1K and 1.5K depending on when you click the link. Come back when you have numbers for the other two sites, and for GW2 itself. Absent those facts, you’re just guessing.

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

It’s easy to say that Raptr statistically means nothing, because it’s correct. But three independent trackers, each tracking their own players (and not each others) are more likely right than wrong.

I can’t imagine how anyone would think otherwise.

First I do want to clarify that I disagree with those who claim that the game is dead, will be dead in six months, etc.

Three sites which all share the same or similar bias(es) are not more likely right than wrong unless their bias(es) are shared by the majority, which has not been demonstrated to be the case here. If you choose to restrict your selection to sites, individuals, etc that all share the same or similar bias(es) you are going to get consensus in the results even if those results are not representative of the population being measured as a whole. If I were to poll only Liberals about a political topic I am very likely to get a liberal consensus even if they are not representative of the majority (note that this is not a liberal vs conservative commentary as I am using this only as an example).

you have yet to demonstrate why the fact that they track people who use some form of their software is a bias that makes the players more likely to fall on the same side of game play habits.

Lets say instead of polling liberal, i poll people who have cell phones, what makes you think people who have cell phones are more likely to fall on the same side of a political debate?

A poll that is only open to people who are members of a restricted club, one which implies certain common interests/inclinations regarding gaming, is questionable at best.

Owning a cell phone is not related to being politically active. Software that you run in concert with your game is related to gamers.

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

It’s easy to say that Raptr statistically means nothing, because it’s correct. But three independent trackers, each tracking their own players (and not each others) are more likely right than wrong.

I can’t imagine how anyone would think otherwise.

First I do want to clarify that I disagree with those who claim that the game is dead, will be dead in six months, etc.

Three sites which all share the same or similar bias(es) are not more likely right than wrong unless their bias(es) are shared by the majority, which has not been demonstrated to be the case here. If you choose to restrict your selection to sites, individuals, etc that all share the same or similar bias(es) you are going to get consensus in the results even if those results are not representative of the population being measured as a whole. If I were to poll only Liberals about a political topic I am very likely to get a liberal consensus even if they are not representative of the majority (note that this is not a liberal vs conservative commentary as I am using this only as an example).

you have yet to demonstrate why the fact that they track people who use some form of their software is a bias that makes the players more likely to fall on the same side of game play habits.

Lets say instead of polling liberal, i poll people who have cell phones, what makes you think people who have cell phones are more likely to fall on the same side of a political debate?

A poll that is only open to people who are members of a restricted club, one which implies certain common interests/inclinations regarding gaming, is questionable at best.

Owning a cell phone is not related to being politically active. Software that you run in concert with your game is related to gamers.

Sure, but it’s three different clubs, and they’re not all the same. You might argue Raptr and Xfire are similar, but Overwolf is a completely different animal, and they still say the same things.

You can argue all you want, but there’s still the quarterly report, there’s still the fact that NcSoft laid of NcSoft West and Carbine developers but didn’t touch Anet.

When you build a case for something you look at all the evidence. The evidence points to the game being fine. Because if it was dying or losing money, or not making profit, or dead, or buried or any of the other things people keep saying about it, layoff would have happened.

All the evidence isn’t wrong…even if some of it by itself wouldn’t stand up. This is how research works.

IndigoSundown.5419:

It’s true that there is no evidence that the samples are not statistically significant. There is also no evidence they are. We don’t have all the numbers. Statistical significance cannot be demonstrated without them. The only numbers I saw are on XFire, with somewhere between 1K and 1.5K depending on when you click the link. Come back when you have numbers for the other two sites, and for GW2 itself. Absent those facts, you’re just guessing.

As I said, it’s unlike the people using Xfire are the same people Using Raptr are the same people using Overwolf. You use the one you like, if you like that sort of thing.

One source means little. Two sources mean a little more. Three sources mean a little more than that.

Did you read about NcSoft West’s layoffs. It’s a horrible thing for those people and I dislike bringing it up, but people keep ignoring. NcSoft West pretty much consists of NcSoft West, Carbine Studios and Anet. Two of places had layoffs recently. Carbine had significant layoffs. Anet remained untouched.

I don’t build cases based on one thing or two things or even three things. There’s a lot of evidence, including the quarterly report from NcSoft that the game is healthy. I don’t have to come back to you at all.

People need to stop nickle and diming every individual thing and look at the big picture.

Vayne.8563:

If the game is doing so badly, why did NcSoft sack a bunch of people from NCsoft west but leave Anet untouched by the layoffs?

Simple – people leave Anet on their own, as attested by several dev goodbye threads in the recent months/weeks.
And before you start with the ‘but they’re hiring’ – they’re hiring for different jobs than those that were vacated.
Anet might actually be quite understaffed in some sections (the pvp and wvw teams come to mind, and the guy over at QA is looking pretty lonesome), while being too high on manpower in others (especially the economy – gemstore – market crew and the LS brigade).

Why does the quarterly report still show a profitable game?

Because consumership and rationality don’t mix very well.

Vayne.8563:

People who don’t enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there do enjoy playing this game.

Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who do.

I’m not sure why that’s so hard for you to accept.

Exactly.

People who enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there don’t enjoy playing this game.

Just because you like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who don’t.

I’m not sure why that’s impossible for you to accept.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

If the game is doing so badly, why did NcSoft sack a bunch of people from NCsoft west but leave Anet untouched by the layoffs?

Simple – people leave Anet on their own, as attested by several dev goodbye threads in the recent months/weeks.
And before you start with the ‘but they’re hiring’ – they’re hiring for different jobs than those that were vacated.
Anet might actually be quite understaffed in some sections (the pvp and wvw teams come to mind, and the guy over at QA is looking pretty lonesome), while being too high on manpower in others (especially the economy -gemstore – market crew and the LS brigade).

Why does the quarterly report still show a profitable game?

Because consumership and rationality don’t mix very well.

Vayne.8563:

People who don’t enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there do enjoy playing this game.

Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who do.

I’m not sure why that’s so hard for you to accept.

Exactly.

People who enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there don’t enjoy playing this game.

Just because you like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who don’t.

I’m not sure why that’s impossible for you to accept.

You have to be joking. How many people have left? 3? 5?

Do you have any idea of normal attrition in game companies? It’s pretty high let me tell you. Sure people have left. One of them was a community manager. Big deal.

So you’re saying it’s successful because people don’t know any better? Okay…that still means this game is successful.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

If the game is doing so badly, why did NcSoft sack a bunch of people from NCsoft west but leave Anet untouched by the layoffs?

Simple – people leave Anet on their own, as attested by several dev goodbye threads in the recent months/weeks.
And before you start with the ‘but they’re hiring’ – they’re hiring for different jobs than those that were vacated.
Anet might actually be quite understaffed in some sections (the pvp and wvw teams come to mind, and the guy over at QA is looking pretty lonesome), while being too high on manpower in others (especially the economy – gemstore – market crew and the LS brigade).

Why does the quarterly report still show a profitable game?

Because consumership and rationality don’t mix very well.

Vayne.8563:

People who don’t enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there do enjoy playing this game.

Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who do.

I’m not sure why that’s so hard for you to accept.

Exactly.

People who enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there don’t enjoy playing this game.

Just because you like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who don’t.

I’m not sure why that’s impossible for you to accept.

That’s the difference between us. I KNOW there’s a core of people who don’t like this game. I’ve never said otherwise.

How long would you have to look before you even find a thread where I say this is the best game or this is a great game. I’ve said it’s a good game with potential to be great. That’s all I’ve ever said. And I’ve always said there are people who don’t like the game, however…

I seriously think you’re underestimating how many people like it.

I’m not the one saying it’s dying or in trouble. Nor am I saying that it’s growing in leaps and bounds.

I’m saying it’s fine.

Now if you have any evidence to suggest otherwise (and I’m sure you don’t), why don’t you present it.

If not, stop misrepresenting what I’m saying. I’ve never said anything other than the game is fine. It’s not dying and it’s not likely to die because ENOUGH people enjoy it.

That’s what I’m saying and if you go back and look it’s all I ever said.

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

If the game is doing so badly, why did NcSoft sack a bunch of people from NCsoft west but leave Anet untouched by the layoffs?

Simple – people leave Anet on their own, as attested by several dev goodbye threads in the recent months/weeks.
And before you start with the ‘but they’re hiring’ – they’re hiring for different jobs than those that were vacated.
Anet might actually be quite understaffed in some sections (the pvp and wvw teams come to mind, and the guy over at QA is looking pretty lonesome), while being too high on manpower in others (especially the economy -gemstore – market crew and the LS brigade).

Why does the quarterly report still show a profitable game?

Because consumership and rationality don’t mix very well.

Vayne.8563:

People who don’t enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there do enjoy playing this game.

Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who do.

I’m not sure why that’s so hard for you to accept.

Exactly.

People who enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there don’t enjoy playing this game.

Just because you like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who don’t.

I’m not sure why that’s impossible for you to accept.

You have to be joking. How many people have left? 3? 5?

Do you have any idea of normal attrition in game companies? It’s pretty high let me tell you. Sure people have left. One of them was a community manager. Big deal.

So you’re saying it’s successful because people don’t know any better? Okay…that still means this game is successful.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Given the gross issue of (mis) communication (and lack thereof), I’d say proper and most of all, good CMs are something Anet are in a dire need of, but ok! Iirc even yoruself clamoured how there needs to be moar and better communication between the company and the community.
But they didn’t hire new ones to handle the situation. They instead simple upgraded Gaile from Support Guru to Forum Team Lead.

And yes, exactly – cheap and abusive marketing methods work on people who don’t know better. Who else would even think of buying gems in a batch of 400 minimum when it’s clearly intended to rip you off one way or the other.

Thank YOU for agreeing with me. Now try following your own logic for a change.

Edit: Nice double post there.

The issue isn’t about “knowing” there are different groups of people, but about understanding some just don’t like the game, and respecting their reasons for having such sentiments (if they list any).
However arguing their personal or other reasons for disliking the game is where you are, and always will be wrong. Yet for some unknown reason, it is not something you seem to be able to accept.
Then again, saying e.g. one loves the game because it does not involve grind could be looked on as either ignorant or disingenuous, because the game had discarded that initial design direction a long time since.

I tried to ask a really simple question is could people manipulate those rankings. And no one can answer. It shows that those numbers isn’t really reliable.

and I’m not sure what’s the intention of some guy who spend 24/7 telling people how great GW2 is on the forum. And argue about other wise. You know when I do something like that? When I try to rise the price of stock I bought, that’s when I spam forum on information.

and unfortunately the guy have some points. If you think GW2 is terrible, you probably dont’ have many choice for mmorpg. Because quite honestly, most mmorpg is dead after 2 years, GW2 is at least more alive than most mmorpg after 2 years.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

If the game is doing so badly, why did NcSoft sack a bunch of people from NCsoft west but leave Anet untouched by the layoffs?

Simple – people leave Anet on their own, as attested by several dev goodbye threads in the recent months/weeks.
And before you start with the ‘but they’re hiring’ – they’re hiring for different jobs than those that were vacated.
Anet might actually be quite understaffed in some sections (the pvp and wvw teams come to mind, and the guy over at QA is looking pretty lonesome), while being too high on manpower in others (especially the economy -gemstore – market crew and the LS brigade).

Why does the quarterly report still show a profitable game?

Because consumership and rationality don’t mix very well.

Vayne.8563:

People who don’t enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there do enjoy playing this game.

Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who do.

I’m not sure why that’s so hard for you to accept.

Exactly.

People who enjoy playing this game can’t understand that people out there don’t enjoy playing this game.

Just because you like it doesn’t mean there’s not a decent core of people who don’t.

I’m not sure why that’s impossible for you to accept.

You have to be joking. How many people have left? 3? 5?

Do you have any idea of normal attrition in game companies? It’s pretty high let me tell you. Sure people have left. One of them was a community manager. Big deal.

So you’re saying it’s successful because people don’t know any better? Okay…that still means this game is successful.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Given the gross issue of (mis) communication (and lack thereof), I’d say proper and most of all, good CMs are something Anet are in a dire need of, but ok! Iirc even yoruself clamoured how there needs to be moar and better communication between the company and the community.
But they didn’t hire new ones to handle the situation. They instead simple upgraded Gaile from Support Guru to Forum Team Lead.

And yes, exactly – cheap and abusive marketing methods work on people who don’t know better. Who else would even think of buying gems in a batch of 400 minimum when it’s clearly intended to rip you off one way or the other.

Thank YOU for agreeing with me. Now try following your own logic for a change.

Edit: Nice double post there.

The issue isn’t about “knowing” there are different groups of people, but about understanding some just don’t like the game, and respecting their reasons for having such sentiments (if they list any).
However arguing their personal or other reasons for disliking the game is where you are, and always will be wrong. Yet for some unknown reason, it is not something you seem to be able to accept.
Then again, saying e.g. one loves the game because it does not involve grind could be looked on as either ignorant or disingenuous, because the game had discarded that initial design direction a long time since.

But I generally don’t argue against personal reasons for disliking the game, even if I post a contrary opinion to it. And what’s wrong with that? If someone posts something on a forum, they should expect contrary opinions no?

I tend not to talk in absolutes, and I tend not to overstate what I’m trying to say.

Do you deny that people have said this game is dead and dying? Or it’ll be dead in a year? Or that no one plays anymore?

Because I’ve seen all those things. Those are the things I post against, because they’re demonstrably wrong. If someone says I want hard content, I simply present the view that I don’t think most players do want hard content.

I never say anyone is wrong for wanting hard content. I simply say that Arenanet has to do what all businesses do. They have to cater to the largest percentage of players.

Now we can disagree day and night on what that is but I still think Anet has a better idea of that than we do.

laokoko.7403:

I tried to ask a really simple question is could people manipulate those rankings. And no one can answer. It shows that those numbers isn’t really reliable.

and I’m not sure what’s the intention of some guy who spend 24/7 telling people how great GW2 is on the forum. And argue about other wise. You know when I do something like that? When I try to rise the price of stock I bought, that’s when I spam forum on information.

and unfortunately the guy have some points. If you think GW2 is terrible, you probably dont’ have many choice for mmorpg. Because quite honestly, most mmorpg is dead after 2 years, GW2 is at least more alive than most mmorpg after 2 years.

Sure and people can exaagerate how dead the game is, or conveniently forget stuff they don’t want people to know.

For the record, I don’t use any of those tracking software, and if I did, I’m sure I’d skew the number higher, because I play a lot.

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

I tried to ask a really simple question is could people manipulate those rankings. And no one can answer. It shows that those numbers isn’t really reliable.

and I’m not sure what’s the intention of some guy who spend 24/7 telling people how great GW2 is on the forum. And argue about other wise. You know when I do something like that? When I try to rise the price of stock I bought, that’s when I spam forum on information.

and unfortunately the guy have some points. If you think GW2 is terrible, you probably dont’ have many choice for mmorpg. Because quite honestly, most mmorpg is dead after 2 years, GW2 is at least more alive than most mmorpg after 2 years.

Sure and people can exaagerate how dead the game is, or conveniently forget stuff they don’t want people to know.

For the record, I don’t use any of those tracking software, and if I did, I’m sure I’d skew the number higher, because I play a lot.

I think raptr, overwolf might be a “little bit” more accurate. Since one of them track unique login per month, that should be a bit more “un-manipulable”. Those tools besides xfire never even release how many data they collected. (for example it says 1%, what does 1% even mean, 500 login? 5000?)

You do realize by turning on 50 computers 24/7, you could get the same results on xfire right?

if anything I believe reddit view much more than any of the 3 tools you listed. my subjective opinion is GW2 is doing ok base on those numbers.

Vayne.8563:

But I generally don’t argue against personal reasons for disliking the game, even if I post a contrary opinion to it.

Ah, you don’t ‘argue against’, you just ‘post a contrary opinion’. Silly me.

Vayne.8563:

I tend not to talk in absolutes, and I tend not to overstate what I’m trying to say.

You’re free to believe so, and I’m free to judge differently based on post history.

Vayne.8563:

Do you deny that people have said this game is dead and dying? Or it’ll be dead in a year? Or that no one plays anymore?

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

Vayne.8563:

Now we can disagree day and night on what that is but I still think Anet has a better idea of that than we do.

Given their track record of patches widely percieved as LQ, not to mention hidden changes such as the gem store fiasco, I wouldn’t bet on it.
If they had a better idea – or an idea to start with – the game would be in a shape far better than this.

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

..and how is that relevant to anything said in the quoted part? Yea, it’s not.

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

Show me a MMO where their forums aren’t full of people shouting and complaining about this, that or the other.. or saying that the game is dying and I’ll give you a Spicy Pumpkin Cookie. Every forum for every MMO I have ever played has been a cesspool of negativity… regardless of the reasons. Those games aren’t dead or dying, but you’d think so based on the forums.

I agree the post has no value, the game is what it is and the course they take it down will determine if it’ll continue to have a future. It’s subjective, those coming in new from less populated games will think it’s doing really well and for some long term veterans it might not have the same view. Speaking for myself, everyone from my original guild is gone all my friends and family are no longer playing with the exception of my wife and we have made some new friends. So in conclusion for some it’s dying for others it isn’t either way perception is in the eyes of the beholder not some forum jockey and third party programs.

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

wildstar isnt a franchise, its trying to come from no where.
eso however is a good example of a failure.

but my point is you are comparing them to failed games. I wouldnt be a considered a successful musician if i sold 1000 records, and muscians comparing themselves to musicians who sold 1000 records arent saying much.

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

wildstar isnt a franchise, its trying to come from no where.
eso however is a good example of a failure.

but my point is you are comparing them to failed games. I wouldnt be a considered a successful musician if i sold 1000 records, and muscians comparing themselves to musicians who sold 1000 records arent saying much.

Guild Wars 2 can compare favorably to most games including SWToR and Final Fantasy. It’s in the ball park. Are you saying Tyria is better known that Star Wars?

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

wildstar isnt a franchise, its trying to come from no where.
eso however is a good example of a failure.

but my point is you are comparing them to failed games. I wouldnt be a considered a successful musician if i sold 1000 records, and muscians comparing themselves to musicians who sold 1000 records arent saying much.

If you really want to use analogy…

The whole point is there isn’t many musician that are able to break the 1000 records mark. So how can you say the musician is doing poorly.

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

wildstar isnt a franchise, its trying to come from no where.
eso however is a good example of a failure.

but my point is you are comparing them to failed games. I wouldnt be a considered a successful musician if i sold 1000 records, and muscians comparing themselves to musicians who sold 1000 records arent saying much.

If you really want to use analogy…

The whole point is there isn’t many musician that are able to break the 1000 records mark. So how can you say the musician is doing poorly.

there is a difference between doing good, and doing ok, and doing poorly.
Also there is actually a big difference in expectations based on investment and past performance.

For justin beiber who has sold records in the 1-5 million mark, selling 100,000 is considered a failure, selling 1 million is considered doing ok.

guild wars 2 imo is doing ok, with a slow downward trend. Its definately not a failure at this time. But i wouldnt say its doing well considering its initial stats

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

wildstar isnt a franchise, its trying to come from no where.
eso however is a good example of a failure.

but my point is you are comparing them to failed games. I wouldnt be a considered a successful musician if i sold 1000 records, and muscians comparing themselves to musicians who sold 1000 records arent saying much.

If you really want to use analogy…

The whole point is there isn’t many musician that are able to break the 1000 records mark. So how can you say the musician is doing poorly.

there is a difference between doing good, and doing ok, and doing poorly.
Also there is actually a big difference in expectations based on investment and past performance.

For justin beiber who has sold records in the 1-5 million mark, selling 100,000 is considered a failure, selling 1 million is considered doing ok.

guild wars 2 imo is doing ok, with a slow downward trend. Its definately not a failure at this time. But i wouldnt say its doing well considering its initial stats

I think it is doing well considering the initial stats. Not awesome, but well. Not just okay. Because there IS a lot of competition and all games have natural attrition.

It’s in line with what most popular MMOs are doing, except WoW which is it’s own case.

Why is this thread still here.

Anyone who regularly uses the forums should know by now that attempting to argue/debate/correct the OP is about as productive as headbutting a reinforced concrete wall

rapthorne.7345:

Why is this thread still here.

Anyone who regularly uses the forums should know by now that attempting to argue/debate/correct the OP is about as productive as headbutting a reinforced concrete wall

Even if I’m right. lol

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

wildstar isnt a franchise, its trying to come from no where.
eso however is a good example of a failure.

but my point is you are comparing them to failed games. I wouldnt be a considered a successful musician if i sold 1000 records, and muscians comparing themselves to musicians who sold 1000 records arent saying much.

If you really want to use analogy…

The whole point is there isn’t many musician that are able to break the 1000 records mark. So how can you say the musician is doing poorly.

there is a difference between doing good, and doing ok, and doing poorly.
Also there is actually a big difference in expectations based on investment and past performance.

For justin beiber who has sold records in the 1-5 million mark, selling 100,000 is considered a failure, selling 1 million is considered doing ok.

guild wars 2 imo is doing ok, with a slow downward trend. Its definately not a failure at this time. But i wouldnt say its doing well considering its initial stats

I think it is doing well considering the initial stats. Not awesome, but well. Not just okay. Because there IS a lot of competition and all games have natural attrition.

It’s in line with what most popular MMOs are doing, except WoW which is it’s own case.

not really doing well considering its initial stats.

The game sold 3 million by 4 months time. Far as i heard they have yet to hit 4 million not counting china.
Ok, i will give you, 3 million users is good enough, but what type of retention did they get from that 3 million?
My feeling is a large amount of that 3 million can no longer be considered active. And no, new players arent replacing them, or else they would have surpassed the 5 or 6 million mark by now.

Now they are competing with games that probably keep 500k-1 mil users around, which is decent, but most of those games didnt start with 3 million 4 months after release.
gw2 is contracting, other games are expanding or maintaining. Its doing ok

Paradox.1380:

Show me a MMO where their forums aren’t full of people shouting and complaining about this, that or the other.. or saying that the game is dying and I’ll give you a Spicy Pumpkin Cookie. Every forum for every MMO I have ever played has been a cesspool of negativity… regardless of the reasons. Those games aren’t dead or dying, but you’d think so based on the forums.

Some people also base their opinion about that this game is dying from personal in-game experience, and not the forums.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

wildstar isnt a franchise, its trying to come from no where.
eso however is a good example of a failure.

but my point is you are comparing them to failed games. I wouldnt be a considered a successful musician if i sold 1000 records, and muscians comparing themselves to musicians who sold 1000 records arent saying much.

If you really want to use analogy…

The whole point is there isn’t many musician that are able to break the 1000 records mark. So how can you say the musician is doing poorly.

there is a difference between doing good, and doing ok, and doing poorly.
Also there is actually a big difference in expectations based on investment and past performance.

For justin beiber who has sold records in the 1-5 million mark, selling 100,000 is considered a failure, selling 1 million is considered doing ok.

guild wars 2 imo is doing ok, with a slow downward trend. Its definately not a failure at this time. But i wouldnt say its doing well considering its initial stats

I think it is doing well considering the initial stats. Not awesome, but well. Not just okay. Because there IS a lot of competition and all games have natural attrition.

It’s in line with what most popular MMOs are doing, except WoW which is it’s own case.

not really doing well considering its initial stats.

The game sold 3 million by 4 months time. Far as i heard they have yet to hit 4 million not counting china.
Ok, i will give you, 3 million users is good enough, but what type of retention did they get from that 3 million?
My feeling is a large amount of that 3 million can no longer be considered active. And no, new players arent replacing them, or else they would have surpassed the 5 or 6 million mark by now.

Now they are competing with games that probably keep 500k-1 mil users around, which is decent, but most of those games didnt start with 3 million 4 months after release.
gw2 is contracting, other games are expanding or maintaining. Its doing ok

Have you seen the business plan?

What decides if a game is doing well or not is the expectations in the business plan…nothing else.

I’m pretty sure this game is performing at or above expectation.

Vayne.8563:

All very logical, except no one really has the numbers to know. At this point, the game is “fine”. That is to say, it’s profitable and it’s sustainable. Going into the future, no one can say.

But sustainable does mean the future. By saying something is sustainable, you’re not only saying it is currently healthy, but that it is in a good place to remain so.

In all these comments about user trends on various third party programs, I’d like to offer evidence that there is something wrong with the game.

The NPE. ArenaNet admitted that GW2 has a new player retention problem. They tried to fix it with the NPE, but we have no idea if it has worked or not.

Old players are guaranteed to stop playing at some point. In order to remain “healthy” or be “sustainable”, an MMORPG needs to be gaining at least as many new players as it loses old players. The NPE was the medicine prescribed to treat weak new player retention.

And you don’t give medicine to healthy people.

I’m not saying the game is on its last legs, will shut down within the year, or is doomed to become the poster child for failed MMORPGs. Perhaps new player retention wasn’t on the order of malignant cancer or a hip fracture, but ArenaNet looked at GW2 and at least saw that it had a cold that needed treating.

And I think I probably shouldn’t stretch the metaphor any further.

Gibson.4036:

Vayne.8563:

All very logical, except no one really has the numbers to know. At this point, the game is “fine”. That is to say, it’s profitable and it’s sustainable. Going into the future, no one can say.

But sustainable does mean the future. By saying something is sustainable, you’re not only saying it is currently healthy, but that it is in a good place to remain so.

In all these comments about user trends on various third party programs, I’d like to offer evidence that there is something wrong with the game.

The NPE. ArenaNet admitted that GW2 has a new player retention problem. They tried to fix it with the NPE, but we have no idea if it has worked or not.

Old players are guaranteed to stop playing at some point. In order to remain “healthy” or be “sustainable”, an MMORPG needs to be gaining at least as many new players as it loses old players. The NPE was the medicine prescribed to treat weak new player retention.

And you don’t give medicine to healthy people.

I’m not saying the game is on its last legs, will shut down within the year, or is doomed to become the poster child for failed MMORPGs. Perhaps new player retention wasn’t on the order of malignant cancer or a hip fracture, but ArenaNet looked at GW2 and at least saw that it had a cold that needed treating.

And I think I probably shouldn’t stretch the metaphor any further.

Anet wants to expand/improve uptake of the game for new players. All businesses do that.

Another piece of evidence is the relatively recent renewal of interest in Communicating With You™.

We had a pretty sudden up-spike in the amount of ArenaNet interaction with the forum. If it had been gradually building, it might not stand out, but it came on quickly. Someone at ArenaNet clearly saw a problem and felt the need to prompt the staff to get more engaged with the forum population.

Again, medicine to address a problem.

Hoepfully these medicines are working. It’s a good sign, rather than letting the patient just keep languishing. GW2 may not be on its deathbed, or even in need of hospitalization, but it is definitely not in complete health.

Vayne.8563:

Anet wants to expand/improve uptake of the game for new players. All businesses do that.

And most businesses do that without kittening their product up for the customers they already have. And that’s where it goes wrong with Anet

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

A few month ago, some guy was bashing GW2 on mmorpg forum, and I ask him a really simple question. Name me 3 mmorpg that he think is doing better than GW2, and he can’t…

Quite honestly, after playing mmorpg for 10 years. I would say Anet have done a fantastic jobs. Because for a game that is 2 years old, it is doing much better than many other studios.

If you think, many people are complaining about GW2, you probably never visits the forum of other mmorpg. I’m not here to tell you GW2 is the greatest mmorpg in the world. I’m saying there is only a few mmorpg out there, that is still doing good. And GW2 is one of it.

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

wildstar isnt a franchise, its trying to come from no where.
eso however is a good example of a failure.

but my point is you are comparing them to failed games. I wouldnt be a considered a successful musician if i sold 1000 records, and muscians comparing themselves to musicians who sold 1000 records arent saying much.

If you really want to use analogy…

The whole point is there isn’t many musician that are able to break the 1000 records mark. So how can you say the musician is doing poorly.

there is a difference between doing good, and doing ok, and doing poorly.
Also there is actually a big difference in expectations based on investment and past performance.

For justin beiber who has sold records in the 1-5 million mark, selling 100,000 is considered a failure, selling 1 million is considered doing ok.

guild wars 2 imo is doing ok, with a slow downward trend. Its definately not a failure at this time. But i wouldnt say its doing well considering its initial stats

I think it is doing well considering the initial stats. Not awesome, but well. Not just okay. Because there IS a lot of competition and all games have natural attrition.

It’s in line with what most popular MMOs are doing, except WoW which is it’s own case.

not really doing well considering its initial stats.

The game sold 3 million by 4 months time. Far as i heard they have yet to hit 4 million not counting china.
Ok, i will give you, 3 million users is good enough, but what type of retention did they get from that 3 million?
My feeling is a large amount of that 3 million can no longer be considered active. And no, new players arent replacing them, or else they would have surpassed the 5 or 6 million mark by now.

Now they are competing with games that probably keep 500k-1 mil users around, which is decent, but most of those games didnt start with 3 million 4 months after release.
gw2 is contracting, other games are expanding or maintaining. Its doing ok

Have you seen the business plan?

What decides if a game is doing well or not is the expectations in the business plan…nothing else.

I’m pretty sure this game is performing at or above expectation.

i doubt it, they dropped by a large % last quarter, and dropped the quarter before that, also some of the trends in spending look disturbing

Vayne.8563:

Anet wants to expand/improve uptake of the game for new players. All businesses do that.

Now I have to decide if it’s worth trying to find their statements for you. ArenaNet conveyed that the NPE was needed because they discovered a problem with new player retention. It wasn’t just “hey, let’s expand the game by squeezing in another extra % of new player retention”. It was a problem that made significantly reworking pre-80 character progression a priority in time for the China launch.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

phys.7689:

laokoko.7403:

KarlaGrey.5903:

The game most likely felt dead to them based on the changes in numerous channels of interaction (guilds, fl, preferred game mode). However once the game feels subjectively dead to large enough a number of people, it normally means it is also “statistically dead” (in terms of revenue generation), unless said people are able to keep the game in the black through their purchases alone.

snip

you are comparing it to the worst competitors. Keep in mind GW2 had a 5 year development time on a pre existing franchise which sold in the millions. Cant really compare gw2 to a stary up mmo developed by a small studio in a couple years.

gw2 is doing ok, its running with some big guys, but that really was the lowest expectation of the game. Anything else would be considered a failure.

well just recently, eso, wildstar? they got good budget right? And over the years I played AOC, warhammer online, those got budget right?

I would say Anet did a much better management job than them.

If hope Anet do a better job like the rest of the complainers. I just find it a bit harsh to be too critical, since it’s probably not so easy. (seeing how so many studio have tried and failed).

wildstar isnt a franchise, its trying to come from no where.
eso however is a good example of a failure.

but my point is you are comparing them to failed games. I wouldnt be a considered a successful musician if i sold 1000 records, and muscians comparing themselves to musicians who sold 1000 records arent saying much.

If you really want to use analogy…

The whole point is there isn’t many musician that are able to break the 1000 records mark. So how can you say the musician is doing poorly.

there is a difference between doing good, and doing ok, and doing poorly.
Also there is actually a big difference in expectations based on investment and past performance.

For justin beiber who has sold records in the 1-5 million mark, selling 100,000 is considered a failure, selling 1 million is considered doing ok.

guild wars 2 imo is doing ok, with a slow downward trend. Its definately not a failure at this time. But i wouldnt say its doing well considering its initial stats

I think it is doing well considering the initial stats. Not awesome, but well. Not just okay. Because there IS a lot of competition and all games have natural attrition.

It’s in line with what most popular MMOs are doing, except WoW which is it’s own case.

not really doing well considering its initial stats.

The game sold 3 million by 4 months time. Far as i heard they have yet to hit 4 million not counting china.
Ok, i will give you, 3 million users is good enough, but what type of retention did they get from that 3 million?
My feeling is a large amount of that 3 million can no longer be considered active. And no, new players arent replacing them, or else they would have surpassed the 5 or 6 million mark by now.

Now they are competing with games that probably keep 500k-1 mil users around, which is decent, but most of those games didnt start with 3 million 4 months after release.
gw2 is contracting, other games are expanding or maintaining. Its doing ok

Have you seen the business plan?

What decides if a game is doing well or not is the expectations in the business plan…nothing else.

I’m pretty sure this game is performing at or above expectation.

i doubt it, they dropped by a large % last quarter, and dropped the quarter before that, also some of the trends in spending look disturbing

But business plans account for drops.

The last quarter saw the release of two competing projects. It happens.

If it continues to downtrend, obviously that will be disturbing, but business I’ve worked at don’t work that way.

I had a business that downtrended until Christmas…and Christmas sales carried it for the year. It was expected and no one cared, because we knew.

Obviously the release of new games is going to affect the bottom line. The question is whether the company weathers those events or doesn’t.

The next two quarterly statements will tell us more.

Gibson.4036:

Vayne.8563:

Anet wants to expand/improve uptake of the game for new players. All businesses do that.

Now I have to decide if it’s worth trying to find their statements for you. ArenaNet conveyed that the NPE was needed because they discovered a problem with new player retention. It wasn’t just “hey, let’s expand the game by squeezing in another extra % of new player retention”. It was a problem that made significantly reworking pre-80 character progression a priority in time for the China launch.

You don’t have to find the statement. Listen to what you’re saying NEW PLAYER retention.

That meant in my mind that people who try the game with their free trial weekends, don’t go on to purchase the game, as much as anything else.

But all companies have that and go through it. WoW did the same thing. Altered their game and the starting areas to get more people through…and the height of their success they did this.

Are you saying WoW was failing at the height of it’s success?

No, they want MORE players to continue playing to higher levels.

Illuminati.2431:

Vayne.8563:

Anet wants to expand/improve uptake of the game for new players. All businesses do that.

And most businesses do that without kittening their product up for the customers they already have. And that’s where it goes wrong with Anet

Do you have proof of this? Do you know what percentage of people are upset or enraged? Do you know how many are leaving?

Almost every time a business makes a change, someone is going to get kittened off by that change. That happened with my business too. A change was made and some people benefited and some people didn’t.

Generally speaking, if we made that change, we were willing to sacrifice a smallish group to gain a larger group. That’s what businesses do.