Guild Wars 2

Whichever way ANet jumps on traits 3.0, I have to believe that their credibility, at least with some forum demographics, is very much on the line.

What I’m expecting based on the “hints:”

• Traits, once unlocked, will be unlocked for the account. Whether this will be grandfathered or not will likely depend on the programming involved. For instance, story mode dungeons unlock PVP dungeon reward tracks, but this was not made retroactive, even though the data has to be stored somewhere for a character to be able to open an explorable path.
• I expect either that specific tasks will continue to be involved, or that trait unlocks will be achieved via experience, kind of like Masteries for sub-80 characters. Whether this will be tied to experience gain or whether there might be a parallel system remains to be seen.
• Sadly, I believe the back-loading of traits will continue, as they have their place within the leveling rewards put in for the NPE, as Gw2 continues to struggle with having leveling benefits consistent with the number of levels.

What I hope:

• The new system will be friendlier to new players than the current system, which spreads traits available at L36 across content from levels ~17 to ~60.

If I was a paranoid person, that seems like telling me to kitten off! (In some ways I think it is, but then possibly for the best.

I think the cycle will continue on some level until more is known. If this was a different thread behind the entire character progression umbrella, it would make more sense. Just for a specific mechanic, as traits are, i think a little information would have been better to kickstart it. I understand that isn’t possible quite yet, but I hope there will be some snippets in the near future, if only to really kickstart that discussion.

The problem you (as in Anet) may have is just how long this has festered so far. Onc eit goes on so far, it is easy to lose that trust in Anet, and feel devalued as a player. I will be the first to admit I’ve not been quiet about that. The near deafening silence I have felt in the last thread didn’t help, and I feel in some ways both Anet and us forum goers have some responsibility there. I do hope those bridges can be rebuilt, but it isn’t an overnight thing, and some level of effort is needed on all sides.

I’ll try and hold off until there is more details, but will respond if there is something said that strikes a chord one way or another. I hope that from here I will start feleing valued as a player and a customer again, but time will tell.

That said I appreciate your words (can’t believe I have a reply from the amazing Gaile! I know I’m a bit sad there.) and I apologise if my frustrations at the company have spilled out in your specific direction. I think i sometimes let my passions rule my head a little. So til some interesting thoughts are given, or small slivers of concrete details happen (does concrete produce slivers?) I’ll bid everyone adieu.

Edit: just one sorta parting shot. People weren’t so much saying change it after Colin’s post, it was more that after so long, talk is cheap. At this point, assurances aren’t as valuable as they may have been if this issue was addressed more promptly. I hope everyone can learn some valuable lessons about how to handle these sorta things going forward, Anet and community alike.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Traced.3495:

I really want to hear about the new trait system, I hope it’s soon.

But I don’t like where this progression thing is going at all, including masteries. I don’t like quests, unlock quests, or anything that resembles those too much. I enjoyed this game when I didn’t have to deal with stuff I don’t want to do.

Would you care about them the same if it was not barring Primary Progression through the content, and was only there for extras which may or may not be of interest? Such as:

Needing to have a Lore Mastery level to open up somewhere which would be on average like a Guild Puzzle?

Or needing the hang glider to reach the start of a jumping puzzle along the top of the canopy?

Or being able to kill Husks same as always, only a Combat Mastery now makes it so you can nullify the “Tough Bark” for 20s?

Or language knowledge offering more dialogue to talk with people on branches you couldn’t see before, not unlike having certain branches only available for race/class/order choices?

I don’t know enough about what mastery progression will bring, I’m afraid I don’t have too much interest and the bit that exists is mostly because of trait system stepping down as progression and mastery system taking it’s place as mentioned in that red post. I think I will need a better showing of it before I can find out what I need.

I would also need to reread the post about adventures/outposts and track down bunch of interviews which I can’t… sort of… bother. Again, I haven’t read things too closely but somewhere I got the impression that there’s some work that needs to be done to progress with the story or reach new locations. Whether it related to mastery (making it required) or some outpost related stuff, I don’t actually remember if that was even said.
Disclaimer is: I didn’t read things too carefully since I don’t have interest in general, I did get a negative impression of it though when scanning for things I might care about.

I just happen to really dislike unlock quests and I don’t really know why that is. I have the impression (again the disclaimer just above) that mastery system will involve unlock requirements somewhat like trait system now, only without the option of paying one’s way out of it.
When progression is tied to unlock quests/requirements it to me is a word to run away very very fast.
…Yeah, I kind of by default don’t like MMORPGs, just some things in those. Happened that I did like GW2 quite a bit until… things happened.

Freedom! Free the traits! Free them from these requirements! <- I have this kind of one track mind right now. :/

(I am familiar with WildStar paths and mastery system reminds me of that. But I expect that mastery system will be more involved with the game than paths which are optional flavor/boosts, all extra.)

Gaile Gray.6029:

Maxwell.7843:

Gaile, are you able at this time to confirm or deny whether Masteries will substitute Traits? Please?

Before this new discussion was born I was pretty sure the answer to the question would have been “no, Traits !=Masteries”, but as I said I’m a bit confused now…

I was pointing to all the recent revelations about Guild Wars 2 and Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns that were related to character progression. I’d consider traits and masteries to be two elements of character progression, but I did not mean to say they were allied or intermingled.

I edited my original post to make that a bit clearer. It is intended simply as, “Here are some new resources about GW2 and character progression that you might like to read.”

Thank you (and the others who commented) for pointing out any confusion with the post. I think it’s clearer now.

Thank you for clarifying!

Your post and Tobias’s perspective have been both very useful to me.
As I wrote in my previous post, after reading Colin’s post and the blog post, I had assumed that Traits and Masteries were two different aspects of what the character can do.
Thank you for confirming that’s the case, when I wrote my previous post I was starting to think that maybe I had completely misunderstood the Mastery post.

As far as Masteries are concerned, in my mind I imagine an example of a combat Mastery being something like “Though bark on mordrems mitigates the damage I do less and less as I progress in the track”.

It seems more and more likely that Traits will be account bound.
The part about the system becoming more “simple” is intriguing, since it could hint at completely different unlocking requirements.

Beldin.5498:

So .. new system :
- Traits can now be earned starting at level 80
- people wanted more challenges, so traits are now only awarded for beating special
challenges like beeing the best dungeon / fractal speedrunners
- you can also win some traits if you win in an E-Sports tournament

Is that the reason of this new thread to speculate how you can change the traits
to make them even worse than now ?

Lots of people despise fractals, dungeons, and WvW in this game.

Maybe the Devs should address those issues. WvW is one thing, but you’d think core PVE players would like dungeons, at least… Points to design and mechanic flaws.

The Mastery system will do nothing to address that, or any of the other numerous issues that Players have been pointing to for some time.

At this stage I have to say that I didn’t feel much of a sense of relief when I read Colin’s post. That you’re reworking or replacing parts of the system is probably good, however until we know what it is that you’re going to replace it with it’s impossible to say.

Having this new thread without any actual information on what the new system will bring just invites the recreation of the last one, with the same posts and conversations and complaints as the last one.

This has certainly been a hot trigger issues for a lot of us. It’s the single worst change made to the game in my opinion and completely derailed my favorite part of the game, which was making alts.

So I hope whatever is happening in the future that this change will be alt friendly. I have 23 80s at this point. I enjoy leveling new characters. I find it relaxing. But I don’t like leveling the and having to then either buy traits for all of them or run very specific events over and over.

Pifil.5193:

Having this new thread without any actual information on what the new system will bring just invites the recreation of the last one, with the same posts and conversations and complaints as the last one.

As long as there is a place to show Anet how much a very large percentage of the playerbase dislikes the new trait system, this thread is fine. But, linking the 83 page locked threat in the first post may slow that down.

Hate to see what is going to happen if the replaced system is a fail.

Gaile Gray.6029:

No snark intended. All I said was factual. You can see that if you analyze the thread, where even after Colin’s post, people were returning to the same comments without recognizing that changes are coming. Saying “Change it!” when the game director has said “We’re going to change it!” doesn’t seem the best of discussions.

Sure, players would like more information. But that’s not available right now. So the choices are to continue on the treadmill of wash/rinse/repeat in the old thread, determine there’s sufficient info to post a new comment in this thread, or hold off until there is more information. It sounds as if you fall into the latter category, and that’s perfectly fine! Feel free to post in the future when you feel you have enough on which to base your input.

People will tend to say the same things over and over again, if things havent changed. Thats logical, the same stimulus creates similar responses, except with less hope, and more finality as time passes.
We can create a new thread, but that will not change the feedback because the situation hasnt changed.
Yes change is on the way, but they said that already months ago. I agree it sucks that information gets lost in a thread, but that is primarily due to the structure of forums in general.

I dont really have the animosity that some others have, but honestly all the problems with the old thread accurately represent where your playerbase is at right now. The annoyance you feel reading that thread, is the same annoyance that players feel with the changes, and the subsequent interactions. As well as their hopes for the future.

The fact that colins post had minimal impact, was because his post has very little impact on traits. And yes the narrative did change from, change it, more to tell us what changes are being made so that we dont have another crappy system in place for a whole year.

SO yeah thats the feedback you should take from this. You need to come up with a way to let players test, or reveal the new trait system before it is finished. Now of course that doesnt appear to be how you guys want to handle things, so here we go again, a circlular discussion because you provide little feedback in order to move the conversation forward. Just the same circles with increasing feelings of futility, resentment, or dissappointment.

If you want to change that, direct the conversation to find out whatever information you need to find out, and give some actual information back to users. That will be what breaks the chains. A new thread cant do that, a thread merely reflects the current situation/information. You will find this threads evolution to be very similar to the last.

I’d just like to throw in my two cents:

Revert trait acquisition back to how it was in regards to level of acquisition/introduction (GM traits at level 60). New and veteran players alike are both confused as to how progression works early on, often asking “What are traits, how do I unlock them, and when is my next unlock?” Keeping the unlocks consistent throughout the levels and letting players get a feel for them earlier while the game content is still on the easier side reinforces building/profession knowledge – a level 80 should not need to check his character screen to know what traits he’s using or which he needs to unlock – he should have a lot of experience working with his character to know how it works and maybe where at lategame it can be improved.

Which leads to the next necessary implementation of removing the content gaits behind traits. While it’s good to promote other areas of the game, basic character progression/play-style definition shouldn’t be gated behind content like that. Maybe for some new, high-level Grandmaster traits, but definitely not for the low level ones.

I’d also remove the requirements of needing to be X level to gain access to the Master/Grandmaster trait segments. It should be simplified by being based only off of the number of points obtained. The existing system bars some build and weapon setups from being used or viable in the lower levels because of some dependencies on these higher level traits. Removing these gates cuts down on complexity (“I see a bar and I can fill it right away because I wanna play this way!” versus “Oh I guess I’m not skilled enough to use a different weapon or style effectively yet.”). This ties into the above by letting players have a really good understanding of their current build/trait setups by level 80, and are looking at other trait lines possibly from the beginning as augmentations versus random points being thrown into a system to be told at endgame their build all along was bad/wrong for reasons they don’t know/understand.

The developers shouldn’t feel the need to gate content due to complexity. More intuitive/experienced players are going to want to take the game at the speed that best suits them, and are not going to want to be slowed down. These players will dive deep into the features early, will go into zones while under-leveled intentionally, etc. Conversely, less-experienced players will prefer to delve into these systems, and will take them on as they feel appropriate. Adding in a flag to remind the player to look at the trait system upon leveling up if the player has never opened the trait pane/has leveled up after obtaining a trait/with a spare point unspent is a good way to go, such that these players can skip out if they feel overwhelmed and be reminded later once they assimilate and get used to the game as to avoid simply forgetting/being overwhelmed.

At the very least, remove the skill point cost from traits. Especially now that skill points will not be awarded for leveling past 80, it would be very difficult for some new players to get the skill points needed to purchase traits later on. I know a few of the people I have recruited to the game did not know about traits until 80, but spent all of their skill points unlocking every single skill available, leaving them with no points to buy some of the necessary traits from bugged events/difficult ones.

I’m still glad that traits are being revisited, especially the method of acquisition. It feels like it just missed the mark, is all. It encourages players to wait around for specific dynamic events, which seems contrary to the philosophy behind those events. Unlocks like story paths and mini dungeons feel appropriate, as they are discrete player initiated experiences.

I also hope the timing for trait acquisition & unlocks will also be addressed. It feels odd to lock something as play-style defining as Grandmaster traits behind level 80.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Indigo Sundown — I know that the dev team understands how critical this subject is, and I also know this has been an often-discussed system. With that, I think we can look forward to substantial positive changes.

Wolfheart — we’re good, and thank you for being so thoughtful, I really appreciate it!

Traced — Yeah, I heard that “Braveheart voice” there.

you are hopeful, but how is this different than the last trait change? Devs knew it was a critical issue, being one of the man forms of progression, and im sure there was internal discussion. That alone does not = substantial positive change.

What might be useful is devs saying what are they believe are players primary beefs with the latest trait system. The devs have yet to say what they feel are the biggest problems with the current trait system. That would at least communicate to players what issues are likely to be changed, and allow players to elaborate, or correct the devs perceptions on what are the biggest problems with the system.

I will tell you that the account binding of traits doesnt really encompass the real problem with the system, it simply makes it something that you only have to do once.

major problems with system
1) its backloaded, it comes into the game too late -starts at 30, but effectively is more like level 40-to endgame progression
2) its uniform and has little to no context,-you do the same things for different traits, of different importance, and different utility
3) it provides few options
4) it doesnt give players a good starter tool kit, its ok to make more complex things harder to get, but players should have had a fair amount of traits to play with without going crazy
5) poorly messaged, even when you know whats going on, its not really clear what to do, or even that you need to do these things for regular players.

im sure there are more, but what i say has been said before, the real question is what is the devs understanding of the situation.

I haven’t made a new character in a long time and I haven’t been following the game for quite a while either.

So, I just went to the GW2 Wiki to check out the new trait system… I’m pretty speechless about how bad it is. Why force people to do all of these random activities?

Edit: I’ve been playing the GW franchise for long enough to remember running out into the wilderness with my capture signet to get the coolest abilities, so maybe that’s what they were going for here?

Pifil.5193:

Having this new thread without any actual information on what the new system will bring just invites the recreation of the last one, with the same posts and conversations and complaints as the last one.

Here’s the situation, as Gaile pointed out above.

The old thread was redundant, non-constructive, and, ultimately, irrelevant, because Colin posted saying that ANet is working on a new Trait system and that some player feedback had been taken into account when developing that system. Therefore, there was absolutely nothing of value that could be added to that thread, which is why Gaile said she should’ve closed it right when Colin posted.

However, imagine the rage at the travesty of closing that thread WITHOUT opening another thread focused on Traits feedback. Why, the forums would explode! Players would launch their own personal vendettas against ANet, or further embellish the ones they’ve already begun.

So, Gaile opened this new thread. Yes, there aren’t any new facts or concrete details we can discuss – right now. Which is why she suggested to step away from the entire topic for a while, instead of going through the same cycle as the first thread. But people can’t do that, I predict, so it’s a lose-lose situation for everyone.

Rhialto.8423:

I haven’t made a new character in a long time and I haven’t been following the game for quite a while either.

So, I just went to the GW2 Wiki to check out the new trait system… I’m pretty speechless about how bad it is. Why force people to do all of these random activities?

Edit: I’ve been playing the GW franchise for long enough to remember running out into the wilderness with my capture signet to get the coolest abilities, so maybe that’s what they were going for here?

It’s exactly what they were going for and even what some people asked for, but it was implemented badly.

Corax.7381:

The old thread was redundant, non-constructive, and, ultimately, irrelevant, because Colin posted saying that ANet is working on a new Trait system and that some player feedback had been taken into account when developing that system.

I actually agree with (what I feel is) your main sentiment, which is that players should calm down and not go into rage mode. But as to the quoted part above, I think the problem is that there was not yet enough information to justify closing the other thread.

I mean, I understand they don’t want to reveal details yet, but then why start a new thread? I think this is an example of doing the right thing, but at the wrong time.

In any case, although I do feel it was a bit of a misstep, I don’t think it was a huge one. But again, much of the animosity found here (and in the old thread) can be directly traced back to ANet’s inability to manage expectations due to a completely ineffective communication policy.

Corax.7381:

Pifil.5193:

Having this new thread without any actual information on what the new system will bring just invites the recreation of the last one, with the same posts and conversations and complaints as the last one.

Here’s the situation, as Gaile pointed out above.

The old thread was redundant, non-constructive, and, ultimately, irrelevant, because Colin posted saying that ANet is working on a new Trait system and that some player feedback had been taken into account when developing that system. Therefore, there was absolutely nothing of value that could be added to that thread, which is why Gaile said she should’ve closed it right when Colin posted.

However, imagine the rage at the travesty of closing that thread WITHOUT opening another thread focused on Traits feedback. Why, the forums would explode! Players would launch their own personal vendettas against ANet, or further embellish the ones they’ve already begun.

So, Gaile opened this new thread. Yes, there aren’t any new facts or concrete details we can discuss – right now. Which is why she suggested to step away from the entire topic for a while, instead of going through the same cycle as the first thread. But people can’t do that, I predict, so it’s a lose-lose situation for everyone.

finally, someone who gets it!

Gaile, one thing that that 83 page, 10 month old post showed us is that, if we don’t like something regarding the trait system, we are stuck with it. To say we kicked up a fuss is an understatement… and went mostly ignored or, at best, mollified via vague platitudes and nebulous promises.

Now that the expansion is on the horizon, the trait issue is being addressed because you have no choice. As it was it is either incomparable with the new system or you realize that it is going to cost you a lot of paying customers… or both.

So, despite our jumping up and down, hollering to be heard, nothing substantial has been done in 10 months. So, it will be 10 months + however long for the expansion to go live that we have waited for what is described as an improvement.

What this has taught us is simple: our opinions on the trait issue are not important and, if the next system has as many problems as this one, we are stuck with it indefinitely.

Mistakes happen. I am fine with that and would have had no problem with these issues had they been addressed in a reasonable timeframe. Other issues have been addressed promptly while this one languished in its isolated thread so I know it can be done… but it wasn’t.

While I am very pleased that the system is going to be overhauled, the track record of that 10 months of fighting causes me great concern.

You would assure us that it will not happen again, that you will be responsive to your player-base, etc., and so on. I wish I could take your (the collective you: the Anet team) words at face value.

Gregori.5807:

Gaile, one thing that that 83 page, 10 month old post showed us is that, if we don’t like something regarding the trait system, we are stuck with it. To say we kicked up a fuss is an understatement… and went mostly ignored or, at best, mollified via vague platitudes and nebulous promises.

Now that the expansion is on the horizon, the trait issue is being addressed because you have no choice. As it was it is either incomparable with the new system or you realize that it is going to cost you a lot of paying customers… or both.

So, despite our jumping up and down, hollering to be heard, nothing substantial has been done in 10 months. So, it will be 10 months + however long for the expansion to go live that we have waited for what is described as an improvement.

What this has taught us is simple: our opinions on the trait issue are not important and, if the next system has as many problems as this one, we are stuck with it indefinitely.

While I am very pleased that the system is going to be overhauled, the track record of that 10 months of fighting causes me great concern.

You would say that it will not happen again. I wish I could take your (the collective you: the Anet team) words at face value.

You act like 10 months is a long time in terms of computer software changes and you act like the trait change negatively affected 90% of the population. It’s not the case.

New players who don’t know any better just accept it as we all would have had it been there when we logged in. It would have been normal for the game.

People who have just one or two characters, it’s not really a big deal. It does affect altoholics like me, but I’m not your typical player.

So, because a thread went on for all those pages and had maybe 50 people posting in it, Anet should go back to the drawing board, and stop whatever else they’re doing to fix it. I don’t see this as reasonable.

10 months, during which the China release came out and they were working on an expansion, which I’m sure kept most of the their main staff busy.

If people would have had it their way, they would have taken people off the expansion to fix this and then delayed the expansion. Was there a reason to do that?

Do more people complain about the trait system than complain about not having content? I don’t think so.

Yes, it’s a hot button issue for you and me, but that doesn’t mean that Anet should have dropped everything to change something that affects, in my opinion, a relatively small percentage of the community.

Particularly if they were changing it with the expansion anyway.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Page numbers are tied to the user. Mine works for me, where the one offered leads only to a page on which Colin’s post does not reside, because I have a different post number per page than other users.

I’m sorry for the confusion on the link. Maybe it’s best to do this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/ColinJohanson-2394/showposts

Please note: You may find Colin’s other posts of interest as well.

Linking posts work better if you use the link from the chain icon next to the post(the one next to the reply and flag icons). So for example the link to your post that I am replying to should be https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Traits-Part-2/4776937 rather than https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Traits-Part-2/first#post4776937 (the tooltip on that icon actually recommend doing it this way!)

Khisanth.2948:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Page numbers are tied to the user. Mine works for me, where the one offered leads only to a page on which Colin’s post does not reside, because I have a different post number per page than other users.

I’m sorry for the confusion on the link. Maybe it’s best to do this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/ColinJohanson-2394/showposts

Please note: You may find Colin’s other posts of interest as well.

Linking posts work better if you use the link from the chain icon next to the post(the one next to the reply and flag icons). So for example the link to your post that I am replying to should be https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Traits-Part-2/4776937 rather than https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Traits-Part-2/first#post4776937 (the tooltip on that icon actually recommend doing it this way!)

I was just about to say the same thing but wanted to read the whole thread first to see if anyone else said it first, and here the last post (yours) said it.

Remove the “page number” from the equation entirely and just use the built-in post linking icon to copy-paste the link so it’ll actually work.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/4733414

Once that link is fixed in the OP then half of the first page of posts can be removed since all they are doing is talking about the broken link – including our posts now :P

Gaile Gray.6029:

No snark intended. All I said was factual. You can see that if you analyze the thread, where even after Colin’s post, *people were returning to the same comments without recognizing that changes are coming. *Saying “Change it!” when the game director has said “We’re going to change it!” doesn’t seem the best of discussions.

Sure, players would like more information. But that’s not available right now. So the choices are to continue on the treadmill of wash/rinse/repeat in the old thread, determine there’s sufficient info to post a new comment in this thread, or hold off until there is more information. It sounds as if you fall into the latter category, and that’s perfectly fine! Feel free to post in the future when you feel you have enough on which to base your input.

We have no real clue what changes are coming where traits are concerned, and we’ve heard ‘change is coming’ before. It isn’t real and it doesn’t matter until we’ve got some real information to form new opinions on.

As it is, any of us can log in, make a new character and see that change has not happened.

Actions speak far, far more loudly than words ever can. Until action is taken and change is demonstrated, peoples’ general opinions aren’t going to change much no matter what gets said. There’s no avoiding that.

Still hoping for selectable minor traits and a UI that doesn’t look hideous. Make it happen Colin! I will put a poster of you in my room if you do.

I am okay with the current trait unlock system on my first try.

But the more alt we’ve played, the less desire to unlock the trait anymore.

I guess each trait should be able to unlock by 4 ways.
1) zone completion
2) boss killing
3) WvW task
4) buy at skill trainner

Upon doing 1~3, the current character will unlock the trait, and unlock an achievement, and gain an account wide permanent 30% cost reduction for buying the trait from trainer. If all 1~3 task has been achieved, the specific trait of a new character could be bought from the trainer for 90% off.

Hey Gaile?

Find someone on the Dev team and tell them they should get a teaser of sorts out for how Traits and Masteries are gonna change it up so we can actually get something new here to discuss? And bonus points if they can assure us there is leeway in the design so feedback can change what people think are Bad Moves?

Thanks!

Gaile Gray.6029:

Khisanth.2948:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Page numbers are tied to the user. Mine works for me, where the one offered leads only to a page on which Colin’s post does not reside, because I have a different post number per page than other users.

I’m sorry for the confusion on the link. Maybe it’s best to do this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/ColinJohanson-2394/showposts

Please note: You may find Colin’s other posts of interest as well.

Linking posts work better if you use the link from the chain icon next to the post(the one next to the reply and flag icons). So for example the link to your post that I am replying to should be https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Traits-Part-2/4776937 rather than https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Traits-Part-2/first#post4776937 (the tooltip on that icon actually recommend doing it this way!)

Just to be clear, that is precisely what I do each time I link a post. I use the “link” icon, but as I said, thanks to the quirkiness of our software the URL that results is not always usable by others.

I appreciate the note, but since that’s what I’m doing, you can see that this isn’t a case of “user error.”

I’ll cut this short since I don’t want to sound too pedantic but if you see “#post1234” in your links then it’s the wrong link.

Not much but something at least. Tight lipped as always, guess that will never change from ANET.

Now DON’T mess this up!

I totally get why this thread was opened and the old one shut down, I do. Despite the intent, it unfortunately feels like Anet wants us to just shut up about this already and wait patiently until they are ready to reveal more information. This may have even worked at one point, but this is an issue that’s been festering for far too long and the trust is thin.

I would love to discuss and speculate on the new trait system. The problem with that is that there is no info to go on other than a vague ‘trust us’.

So yeah, this may not be the productive comments you want to hear, but it’s the type of comments you’re going to continue to get until we actually have some sort of information in our hands and we build up some more trust on this issue. Right now I feel like a child who’s been told to go play in the corner and stop bothering the grown-ups. I know that’s not your intent, Gaile, and you don’t make the call on how this is presented, but it doesn’t take the bad taste out of my mouth.

I’m glad to hear the current trait system is being reworked! It felt very restrictive before and I’m interested to see how you approach the issue. I like the idea of traits being a reward for exploration, but I feel the issue is achieving that without punishing players for not exploring certain areas.

Making trait unlocks account-bound is certainly a step in the right direction, but then players could simply pick up their main, and go to x, kill y, go to z. An hour later, they have every trait for every class, and the idea of rewarding exploration is ruined.

What if the new trait system is more of a development of the current one? For example, rather than “Kill boss X for trait Y”, you have “Kill boss X, Y, or Z, or complete event A, B, or C for trait Y”. That way people can unlock traits in a way they like, or by exploring different areas.

Vayne.8563:

You act like 10 months is a long time in terms of computer software changes and you act like the trait change negatively affected 90% of the population. It’s not the case.

New players who don’t know any better just accept it as we all would have had it been there when we logged in. It would have been normal for the game.

People who have just one or two characters, it’s not really a big deal. It does affect altoholics like me, but I’m not your typical player.

I happen to be on your boat quite often, but this time I can’t.

I know that it is impossible to come up with absolute figures. The only way to find out how players think about this is by asking around those you know – your guild and friends – and draw your conclusions on that.

And on most topics discussed here there are always a wealth of different opinions, so there is not a simple consensus.

Not so on traits: there is zero, 0, nada, null, keine, rien, acceptance of the current trait system. And almost everybody in my guild is an altoholic, having between 3 to 8 characters. So I feel quite safe when saying that this is a MAJOR annoyance felt throughout the player base and something has to be done.

I bought another two character slots a few months ago, but I haven’t used them because I wholeheartedly hate this trait system. I’ve done one new character since the trait change and still have not acquired all traits (I planned on not buying them but playing the game, but I cannot make myself run story mode of the dungeons again) and there is no way I’ll do that again for yet another character. ANet id directly losing money, because with the old trait system I surely had already created alts for the spare slots and already bought new ones.

Gaile Gray.6029:

insanemaniac.2456:

Corax.7381:

Pifil.5193:

Having this new thread without any actual information on what the new system will bring just invites the recreation of the last one, with the same posts and conversations and complaints as the last one.

Here’s the situation, as Gaile pointed out above.

The old thread was redundant, non-constructive, and, ultimately, irrelevant, because Colin posted saying that ANet is working on a new Trait system and that some player feedback had been taken into account when developing that system. Therefore, there was absolutely nothing of value that could be added to that thread, which is why Gaile said she should’ve closed it right when Colin posted.

However, imagine the rage at the travesty of closing that thread WITHOUT opening another thread focused on Traits feedback. Why, the forums would explode! Players would launch their own personal vendettas against ANet, or further embellish the ones they’ve already begun.

So, Gaile opened this new thread. Yes, there aren’t any new facts or concrete details we can discuss – right now. Which is why she suggested to step away from the entire topic for a while, instead of going through the same cycle as the first thread. But people can’t do that, I predict, so it’s a lose-lose situation for everyone.

finally, someone who gets it!

Praise Dwayna, yes! Thanks insanemaniac and Corax for the words of wisdom.

So you consider it to be words of wisdom that feedback from customers is, “non-constructive,” and, “ultimately irrelevant ?”

I find that to be a bit surprising considering how much effort on the part of players went into suggestions and the like in the other thread. I dont deny that some posts went too far or were offensive, but to disregard everyone who tried to participate in providing solutions to a perceived problem by describing their dismissal by others as words of wisdom seems a bit off in my opinion.

Corax.7381:

Pifil.5193:

Having this new thread without any actual information on what the new system will bring just invites the recreation of the last one, with the same posts and conversations and complaints as the last one.

Here’s the situation, as Gaile pointed out above.

The old thread was redundant, non-constructive, and, ultimately, irrelevant, because Colin posted saying that ANet is working on a new Trait system and that some player feedback had been taken into account when developing that system. Therefore, there was absolutely nothing of value that could be added to that thread, which is why Gaile said she should’ve closed it right when Colin posted.

However, imagine the rage at the travesty of closing that thread WITHOUT opening another thread focused on Traits feedback. Why, the forums would explode! Players would launch their own personal vendettas against ANet, or further embellish the ones they’ve already begun.

So, Gaile opened this new thread. Yes, there aren’t any new facts or concrete details we can discuss – right now. Which is why she suggested to step away from the entire topic for a while, instead of going through the same cycle as the first thread. But people can’t do that, I predict, so it’s a lose-lose situation for everyone.

Please, it’s not complex, I get it. What I’m saying is that by closing the old thread all Gaile has achieved is moving that conversation to this new one (and better one thread than a hundred new threads, I agree) so she should have left the old one open until there was some new information on the system. It was premature. As it is when they release new information in a week or two she’ll just have to close this one and create another.

Hey look, rather than try to discuss things, the thread already is going south arguing over the message of closing the other thread and starting a new one. Sigh. Just . . . lock this outright until we get something about what’s coming up.

Ah well, at least I tried to put something of value in here.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Hey look, rather than try to discuss things, the thread already is going south arguing over the message of closing the other thread and starting a new one. Sigh. Just . . . lock this outright until we get something about what’s coming up.

Ah well, at least I tried to put something of value in here.

I agree, people are not being rational today.
Just post something new when there is significant info!

Halvorn.9831:

Vayne.8563:

You act like 10 months is a long time in terms of computer software changes and you act like the trait change negatively affected 90% of the population. It’s not the case.

New players who don’t know any better just accept it as we all would have had it been there when we logged in. It would have been normal for the game.

People who have just one or two characters, it’s not really a big deal. It does affect altoholics like me, but I’m not your typical player.

I happen to be on your boat quite often, but this time I can’t.

I know that it is impossible to come up with absolute figures. The only way to find out how players think about this is by asking around those you know – your guild and friends – and draw your conclusions on that.

And on most topics discussed here there are always a wealth of different opinions, so there is not a simple consensus.

Not so on traits: there is zero, 0, nada, null, keine, rien, acceptance of the current trait system. And almost everybody in my guild is an altoholic, having between 3 to 8 characters. So I feel quite safe when saying that this is a MAJOR annoyance felt throughout the player base and something has to be done.

I bought another two character slots a few months ago, but I haven’t used them because I wholeheartedly hate this trait system. I’ve done one new character since the trait change and still have not acquired all traits (I planned on not buying them but playing the game, but I cannot make myself run story mode of the dungeons again) and there is no way I’ll do that again for yet another character. ANet id directly losing money, because with the old trait system I surely had already created alts for the spare slots and already bought new ones.

But how many people, by percentage were affected?

New players don’t know what it was like. If you don’t know the old system, then you’re not affected, surely not in the same way. Half the people probably never looked at traits anyway and don’t even realize they’re missing. They also probably never do a dungeon.

Old people, many of us, had one of each profession leveled already, with all the traits unlocked. There are many in my guild who have one character since launch, maybe a couple of alts they don’t care about…but in my guild. maybe three people were really affected and I was one of them.

It didn’t seem to matter to the other hundred people in my guild. Hell I’m sure half of the don’t even know it happened.

Yes, to the people it affected, like you, it IS a big deal, but even if there is agreement between all those people, I don’t see how you can believe that it’s most players that are affected. Most players had already leveled the professions they cared about.

I agree that most people (not everyone) in that thread was in agreement. But I don’t agree that it was a significant percentage of the player base. And even in that thread there were some people who defended it.

Vayne,

100% of all players were affected. They may not know to what degree and they may not know what it was like before the change but they are affected.

Edit: in theory players who do not stick to the game beyond the early levels are not affected.

In my guild a lot of players already have quite some alts but they’re not very keen on leveling the missing ones now with this trait system.

Additionally I’d like to address your reasoning of “if you don’t know the old system, then you’re not affected”. I disagree.

It is not about being relatively worse than before. It is bad in its own and it hinders even new players who never experienced the old system as it inherently makes the process of acquiring your traits for every new character tedious, independently of what it used to be. They step away from creating an alt since they don’t want to do this again and again.

So you too can’t know that it is NOT a significant percentage of the player base which is affected by this trait system, since even that is only an assumption. I find it easy to reason that it annoys new players independently of how it was and it annoys veterans as well.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne,

100% of all players were affected. They may not know to what degree and they may not know what it was like before the change but they are affected.

Edit: in theory players who do not stick to the game beyond the early levels are not affected.

100% of the people aren’t affected. If you never intend on leveling another alt, the trait change doesn’t affect you.

And the point of being affected or not, if you don’t know your affected, you’re not actually affected by it.

That is to say, my response was based on the premise that there was a thread with a lot of people who all agreed. A lot of people (not all) did agree. But it’s still a very small percentage of the player base.

You can’t go say someone is affected if they say they’re not. I’ve talked to people in my guild who say that it doesn’t affect them. I tried to argue it did…and lost.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne,

100% of all players were affected. They may not know to what degree and they may not know what it was like before the change but they are affected.

Edit: in theory players who do not stick to the game beyond the early levels are not affected.

100% of the people aren’t affected. If you never intend on leveling another alt, the trait change doesn’t affect you.

And the point of being affected or not, if you don’t know your affected, you’re not actually affected by it.

That is to say, my response was based on the premise that there was a thread with a lot of people who all agreed. A lot of people (not all) did agree. But it’s still a very small percentage of the player base.

You can’t go say someone is affected if they say they’re not. I’ve talked to people in my guild who say that it doesn’t affect them. I tried to argue it did…and lost.

I am affected on my main as I must either unlock the new GM traits or buy them at the new costs if I am going to return to my previous state of having all traits unlocked right? Thats not a complaint by the way. Ive got the resources for it to be completely painless on a character who already had all everything else unlocked.

You don’t need to know something is affecting you, or even understand the affect, for it to be doing so. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.

That said the affect on someone might be minimal. Someone with a single main character and a lot of gold and skill points will be able to quickly purchase the new GM traits without seeing any more than a minimal impact. But the gold and ski points so spent cannot be spent on something else. An affect, but minimal.

Vayne . . . I’m sorry. I have no intent of going forward with leveling my alts which got started after the Trait revamp because of this. Sure, I play my ranger almost exclusively.

. . . almost . . .

But at least one of my characters is saddled with no Trait Masteries to speak of. I will have to do events for another character to try to grab the last ones. I don’t plan on seriously starting another alt until I know what the new system is going to be and it’s in place.

This change we’re talking of did affect me. Negatively.

That’s one reason I’m interested in seeing what’s coming out instead, rather than being merely academically interested as I am concerning grind.

Ashen.2907:

Gaile Gray.6029:

insanemaniac.2456:

Corax.7381:

Pifil.5193:

Having this new thread without any actual information on what the new system will bring just invites the recreation of the last one, with the same posts and conversations and complaints as the last one.

Here’s the situation, as Gaile pointed out above.

The old thread was redundant, non-constructive, and, ultimately, irrelevant, because Colin posted saying that ANet is working on a new Trait system and that some player feedback had been taken into account when developing that system. Therefore, there was absolutely nothing of value that could be added to that thread, which is why Gaile said she should’ve closed it right when Colin posted.

However, imagine the rage at the travesty of closing that thread WITHOUT opening another thread focused on Traits feedback. Why, the forums would explode! Players would launch their own personal vendettas against ANet, or further embellish the ones they’ve already begun.

So, Gaile opened this new thread. Yes, there aren’t any new facts or concrete details we can discuss – right now. Which is why she suggested to step away from the entire topic for a while, instead of going through the same cycle as the first thread. But people can’t do that, I predict, so it’s a lose-lose situation for everyone.

finally, someone who gets it!

Praise Dwayna, yes! Thanks insanemaniac and Corax for the words of wisdom.

So you consider it to be words of wisdom that feedback from customers is, “non-constructive,” and, “ultimately irrelevant ?”

I find that to be a bit surprising considering how much effort on the part of players went into suggestions and the like in the other thread. I dont deny that some posts went too far or were offensive, but to disregard everyone who tried to participate in providing solutions to a perceived problem by describing their dismissal by others as words of wisdom seems a bit off in my opinion.

all shes ever done is help us get our voices heard by the devs.

insanemaniac.2456:

all shes ever done is help us get our voices heard by the devs.

And be hilarious while fighting the Claw of Jormag.

Ashen.2907:

Gaile Gray.6029:

insanemaniac.2456:

Corax.7381:

Pifil.5193:

Having this new thread without any actual information on what the new system will bring just invites the recreation of the last one, with the same posts and conversations and complaints as the last one.

Here’s the situation, as Gaile pointed out above.

The old thread was redundant, non-constructive, and, ultimately, irrelevant, because Colin posted saying that ANet is working on a new Trait system and that some player feedback had been taken into account when developing that system. Therefore, there was absolutely nothing of value that could be added to that thread, which is why Gaile said she should’ve closed it right when Colin posted.

However, imagine the rage at the travesty of closing that thread WITHOUT opening another thread focused on Traits feedback. Why, the forums would explode! Players would launch their own personal vendettas against ANet, or further embellish the ones they’ve already begun.

So, Gaile opened this new thread. Yes, there aren’t any new facts or concrete details we can discuss – right now. Which is why she suggested to step away from the entire topic for a while, instead of going through the same cycle as the first thread. But people can’t do that, I predict, so it’s a lose-lose situation for everyone.

finally, someone who gets it!

Praise Dwayna, yes! Thanks insanemaniac and Corax for the words of wisdom.

So you consider it to be words of wisdom that feedback from customers is, “non-constructive,” and, “ultimately irrelevant ?”

I find that to be a bit surprising considering how much effort on the part of players went into suggestions and the like in the other thread. I dont deny that some posts went too far or were offensive, but to disregard everyone who tried to participate in providing solutions to a perceived problem by describing their dismissal by others as words of wisdom seems a bit off in my opinion.

This. I’m speechless and utterly disappointed by this and other jabs by Ms. Gray.

Re: 10 months isn’t a lot of time in software development… blah blah blah. There are plenty of ways they could’ve made the system more bearable in the meantime with absolutely minimal effort (resetting the cost to the original prices, as an example), without needing to implement an entirely new system. Let’s not make excuses, given that Anet’s opinion of the feedback thread was that it was just an echo chamber of useless, venomous raving, apparently.

insanemaniac.2456:

Ashen.2907:

Gaile Gray.6029:

insanemaniac.2456:

Corax.7381:

Pifil.5193:

Having this new thread without any actual information on what the new system will bring just invites the recreation of the last one, with the same posts and conversations and complaints as the last one.

Here’s the situation, as Gaile pointed out above.

The old thread was redundant, non-constructive, and, ultimately, irrelevant, because Colin posted saying that ANet is working on a new Trait system and that some player feedback had been taken into account when developing that system. Therefore, there was absolutely nothing of value that could be added to that thread, which is why Gaile said she should’ve closed it right when Colin posted.

However, imagine the rage at the travesty of closing that thread WITHOUT opening another thread focused on Traits feedback. Why, the forums would explode! Players would launch their own personal vendettas against ANet, or further embellish the ones they’ve already begun.

So, Gaile opened this new thread. Yes, there aren’t any new facts or concrete details we can discuss – right now. Which is why she suggested to step away from the entire topic for a while, instead of going through the same cycle as the first thread. But people can’t do that, I predict, so it’s a lose-lose situation for everyone.

finally, someone who gets it!

Praise Dwayna, yes! Thanks insanemaniac and Corax for the words of wisdom.

So you consider it to be words of wisdom that feedback from customers is, “non-constructive,” and, “ultimately irrelevant ?”

I find that to be a bit surprising considering how much effort on the part of players went into suggestions and the like in the other thread. I dont deny that some posts went too far or were offensive, but to disregard everyone who tried to participate in providing solutions to a perceived problem by describing their dismissal by others as words of wisdom seems a bit off in my opinion.

all shes ever done is help us get our voices heard by the devs.

She is an employee that publicly repeated and supported a statement that feedback from the company’s customers was irrelevant.

I have defended her in the past and am sure that I will again in the future because she gets flack for things that are not her fault, or are not things with which fault should be taken, but that statement was a bit off.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne,

100% of all players were affected. They may not know to what degree and they may not know what it was like before the change but they are affected.

Edit: in theory players who do not stick to the game beyond the early levels are not affected.

100% of the people aren’t affected. If you never intend on leveling another alt, the trait change doesn’t affect you.

And the point of being affected or not, if you don’t know your affected, you’re not actually affected by it.

That is to say, my response was based on the premise that there was a thread with a lot of people who all agreed. A lot of people (not all) did agree. But it’s still a very small percentage of the player base.

You can’t go say someone is affected if they say they’re not. I’ve talked to people in my guild who say that it doesn’t affect them. I tried to argue it did…and lost.

I am affected on my main as I must either unlock the new GM traits or buy them at the new costs if I am going to return to my previous state of having all traits unlocked right? Thats not a complaint by the way. Ive got the resources for it to be completely painless on a character who already had all everything else unlocked.

You don’t need to know something is affecting you, or even understand the affect, for it to be doing so. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.

That said the affect on someone might be minimal. Someone with a single main character and a lot of gold and skill points will be able to quickly purchase the new GM traits without seeing any more than a minimal impact. But the gold and ski points so spent cannot be spent on something else. An affect, but minimal.

There’s no reason to talk to someone who’s trying to disprove me at all costs. If I say that it’s hot out and my wife says it isn’t, the heat isn’t affected her. Of course, it’s affecting her in some way. Because heat affects humans. But she’s not bothered by it at all.

Since you’re having trouble with casual English feel free to swap out “it doesn’t affect everyone” with “most people don’t care one way or the other”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne . . . I’m sorry. I have no intent of going forward with leveling my alts which got started after the Trait revamp because of this. Sure, I play my ranger almost exclusively.

. . . almost . . .

But at least one of my characters is saddled with no Trait Masteries to speak of. I will have to do events for another character to try to grab the last ones. I don’t plan on seriously starting another alt until I know what the new system is going to be and it’s in place.

This change we’re talking of did affect me. Negatively.

That’s one reason I’m interested in seeing what’s coming out instead, rather than being merely academically interested as I am concerning grind.

And I’m not saying you’re not affected. Show me where I said this.

I’m saying MOST people don’t really care or know or think about it. The bulk of the people. Not the 15% of the people who come to forums. The 50% of the people who haven’t looked twice at their trait screen since launch. I remember one of the devs saying something about how many people NEVER looked at a trait screen. It was an amazing number.

Surely you realize that people like us a vast minority. Not some great majority. And yes, many of us in that vast minority are affected.

But most people aren’t…even if we are.

I AM affected. That doesn’t change a word I’ve said.

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne . . . I’m sorry. I have no intent of going forward with leveling my alts which got started after the Trait revamp because of this. Sure, I play my ranger almost exclusively.

. . . almost . . .

But at least one of my characters is saddled with no Trait Masteries to speak of. I will have to do events for another character to try to grab the last ones. I don’t plan on seriously starting another alt until I know what the new system is going to be and it’s in place.

This change we’re talking of did affect me. Negatively.

That’s one reason I’m interested in seeing what’s coming out instead, rather than being merely academically interested as I am concerning grind.

And I’m not saying you’re not affected. Show me where I said this.

I’m saying MOST people don’t really care or know or think about it. The bulk of the people. Not the 15% of the people who come to forums. The 50% of the people who haven’t looked twice at their trait screen since launch. I remember one of the devs saying something about how many people NEVER looked at a trait screen. It was an amazing number.

Surely you realize that people like us a vast minority. Not some great majority. And yes, many of us in that vast minority are affected.

But most people aren’t…even if we are.

I AM affected. That doesn’t change a word I’ve said.

No, I’m not saying you said that. I know you know I am careful about that particular gripe here on the forum.

I’m just adding my point to this. Again. Since the old thread has been locked (but not forgotten) I felt the distillation of it needed to be put here in the midst of this. The change affects me, even as much as I might realistically say otherwise? It did. It changed how I played the game in a negative way.