Guild Wars 2

MAGpie.7962:

When have you lost an argument, when you need to focus on things other than the argument to try and win points. Things such as… say grammar.

How can there be an argument when one of both sides doesn’t even grasp what they are arguing about?

I was merely trying to help. But keep posting meme’s while not addressing the subject.

Not arguing Saying, you guys are behaving like kids. Last time I checked, I was “entitled” to do so :P

MAGpie.7962:

When have you lost an argument, when you need to focus on things other than the argument to try and win points. Things such as… say grammar.

You are not arguing. You are misusing term without knowing what it means.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

MAGpie.7962:

When have you lost an argument, when you need to focus on things other than the argument to try and win points. Things such as… say grammar.

You are not arguing. You are misusing term without knowing what it means.

This. Getting bored, off topic anyway. Going to report for closure.

I agree with the OP. I paid money years ago with doubts about the game, one I hated GW1 and two games with easy in-game currency conversions from real money inputs I found to explode with inflation. Both those things turned out to be a non issue. If they where an issue I would just consider it money poorly spent and moved on.
Same thing now, I paid for the pre features. If the expansion somehow does not live up to what I think it will I will be unhappy but life goes on.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

MAGpie.7962:

When have you lost an argument, when you need to focus on things other than the argument to try and win points. Things such as… say grammar.

You are not arguing. You are misusing term without knowing what it means.

Correct. I am not arguing. I am voicing an opinion…

And, it would have been funnier if you posted this:
http://www.louisaheinrich.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/inigo-montoya_that-word.jpg

MAGpie.7962:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

MAGpie.7962:

When have you lost an argument, when you need to focus on things other than the argument to try and win points. Things such as… say grammar.

You are not arguing. You are misusing term without knowing what it means.

Correct. I am not arguing. I am voicing an opinion…

And, it would have been funnier if you posted this:
http://www.louisaheinrich.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/inigo-montoya_that-word.jpg

and

MAGpie.7962:

When have you lost an argument, when you need to focus on things other than the argument to try and win points. Things such as… say grammar.

You are not arguing but others lose an argument which was no argument since you were only voicing an opinion?

Not sure who of us is confused.

Imho, being “veterans” hasn’t got much to do with the current situation.
Some players get the core game and the expansion and some get just the expansion, yet both are buying it at the same place, time and price.
That’s my issue – either existing players get a core game code as well when they buy the expansion, or they get something else to make up for it.

chemiclord.3978:

Well, you have to be careful when accusing people of entitlement.

There IS a lot of sentiment that $50 for an expansion is simply too much money. That’s not entitlement, that’s simply not seeing the value in what they’re being asked to pony up for. You might not agree, but it’s not entitlement.

Entitlement is effectively, “I deserve [x] because I did [y].” Entitlement is fans demanding a free character slot because that’s how it was done in the past. Entitlement is demanding 800 or 1600 gems because they’re veteran players and “deserve” it. The latter complaints can (and should) be dismissed without merit.

what you said makes no sense.
if its logical to think 50 for this expansion is too much money
its also logical to think that if it had other things of value it would be worth that money.

50,000 dollars for a car might be too much money
50,000 dollars for a car that can drive itself and flies may be just fine.

what it boils down to is people deciding whats the value and the going rate on the item.

i will tell you that based on other expansions, 50 dollars with no means to play a new new class without an additional purchase is not matching up well with peoples expectations for expansion prices.

Cyninja.2954:

MAGpie.7962:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

MAGpie.7962:

When have you lost an argument, when you need to focus on things other than the argument to try and win points. Things such as… say grammar.

You are not arguing. You are misusing term without knowing what it means.

Nah bro, I am not arguing. I’m a bird brain after all. So being confused kinda comes with the turf. I am still however supporting the product, and I am still buying multiple copies. Confused or not.

Correct. I am not arguing. I am voicing an opinion…

And, it would have been funnier if you posted this:
http://www.louisaheinrich.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/inigo-montoya_that-word.jpg

and

MAGpie.7962:

When have you lost an argument, when you need to focus on things other than the argument to try and win points. Things such as… say grammar.

You are not arguing but others lose an argument which was no argument since you were only voicing an opinion?

Not sure who of us is confused.

I think £35 is abit too much for an expansion plus new people should not get expansion for free where other people had to pay £20+ for the guild war 2 game then they expect old players to pay £35+ for the expansion where new players only pay £35. There should be an expansion only price( with no base game for old players at a discounted price and £35+ for new players or people who want an new account.

OP you are missing the point to why most of us are disgruntled. It’s not about us being cheapskates, since a majority of those I’ve talked to, and myself just know we are being baited into paying more than it’s worth and getting the short end of the stick for being here for years.

If new players get the base free then I’d like 5 free character slots added to my account or a code to make an alt account, the ‘bonus’ might pay itself in the long run with the login rewards or I could gift it. As it stands they made it pretty clear if we want to attach it to existing accounts we get zilch. I am not giving up an account with over 12k AP, 16 characters and over 800€ worth of cosmetics and collectibles put in gemstore purchases just to ‘start fresh’. Nor should I take a loss for the package and forfeit the bonus, or be forced to shell out another 10€ on top of the content I’d already be losing out on, just to play Revenant.

I honestly can’t believe you dont see the discrepancy between vet – 60€ vs newbie 50€ for base packaging, and 0 vs 5 slots issue most of us are trying to address here.

It’s not entitlement… its called “being fair”

Majority of the people believe the pricing is fine… People are whining because, Its the fact that:

A) Anet went and ninja’d the FAQ regarding HoT and the base gw2 game requirement to play it- they totally deserve flak for changing the FAQ on the fly like that without telling the community

B)kitten details about HoT.. we don’t evenknow what the hell we are spending the 50 bucks on.. thats brilliant strategy “grab the money first, as fast as possible, worry about details later”… works on some of the playerbase that blindly follows Anet..

C) You are adding a new class, yet forcing veterans to buy a character slot(or delete an alt which a lot of ppl worked kitten?..) in order to even play the class. What MMO releases an expansion that features a new class but doesn’t give the basic need of an additional character slot so players can you know.. actually try the new class???

Price is fine, their options are pathetically greedy thou (except ultimate edition i guess lol, thats a nice discount on gems)..however this community is does have a fair share of blind Anet devotees so it’s probably worked to an extent..

Just play the waiting game IMO. There is absolutely no reason to pre-order right now anyways…period….HoT doesn’t even have a release window lol.. If numbers aren’t looking that great from Anet’s end, there might be some adjustment made to the pre order packages.. wait and see.

Greymelken.1892:

Across all characters, I have played for 1374 hours and 50 minutes over the past 1021 days. I paid $60 for the base game.

4 cents an hour. That how much of my money Anet has taken while I played their game.

You might think that is excessive, I some of you reading this have played more. Much, much more. After you have judged me, for a moment, lets say I only played for 1 hour on friday and saturday. Thats 21 cents per hour.

There is NOTHING I can do with 4 cents. I would need 50 times that just to enjoy a Soda. For the price of a soda, I: “Veteran Player” – could have enjoyed 20 hours of Guild Wars 2.

How my 4 cents an hour pays for this opportunity to escape each day to a persistant living online world is beyond the scope of my imagination, its just one of those things I am going to have to take for granted because trying to wrap my head around it hurts worse then trying to wrap my head around the idea that I, “Veteran Player” am somehow entitled to more then a new player, because 3 years ago I shelled out $50. I lose that much money a year in my couch. I find that much money a year on the ground. Last week I found a quarter stuck to the bottom of my shoe. Thats like 6 and a half hours of GW2 paid for.

Anet owes me NOTHING. in fact, laid out like this… yea, I pretty much owe Anet. if I have to pay $50 today to uninstall GW2 that would bring the cost of my entertainment up to 11 cents an hour. We can go back and do more Soda math, or you can get the point. In case you didnt:

If HoT adds absolutely nothing to the game, I will have gotten my money’s worth. So have you, “Veteran Player”.

What do we have here? Anet’s pet? We owe Anet? I’m sorry? owe what?
Yes, yes, the worth of the game is judged by $$ per hour, don’t you guys love pseudo logics? Just what is this “privilege” that are you ranting about?

Pretty Pixie.8603:

Vayne.8563:

Pretty Pixie.8603:

What EAnet owes us is non shady business practices. They charge $50 and then do not include a character slot so you can’t actually experience all of the content if you do not have one available to cynically wring another $10 buck out of you. They price it at $50 because of a captive audience; everyone that wants future content is required to have HoT, with the possible exceptions of content like halloween etc. never mind that you’re expected to drop the money with limited knowledge of what’s included.

Anyone dropping $50 is doing that with the information they have now. And I for one don’t consider what has been revealed so far worth $50.

Captive Audience? Really? Is this your first MMO?

If you play WoW, you can’t do the new content if you don’t pay the subscription AND buy the expansion. If you play something like Lotro or DDO, you have to buy each area and some professions. Those games take greed to a new level. Games are either pay to win, which which case they can afford to give you content for free, since you’re forced to pay anyway if you want to progress, or they lock parts of the game behind a paywall, or they charge you a monthly fee.

That’s the real world in MMO. Want to play FFXIV, be prepared to pay a monthly fee AND pay for an expansion. Want to play SWToR, sure you can, for free as long as you don’t want to do anything. It’s more like pay to walk. Most people who play it have the “optional” subscription. ESO had a sub fee milking people for an entire year, so if they come out with something now and it’s free, well, so what? Most players of that game paid over $150 to get there.

This isn’t some huge ridiculous cash grab. This is the realities of the industry and Anet is one of the lesser offenders.

As I said elsewhere, other games have no bearing on how I spend my money here. I consider the current pricing shady, with the double dipping for a character slot which excludes you from content you just purchased.

I would probably drop the $50 even though with the information available the xpac looks light to me. If I then see that players are being hit up for another $10 just to experience part of the content they just paid for, I’ll think twice.

Good for you that you’re happy with the way they went about it. I prefer to be a bit more discerning with my money.

if you could kindly stay away from the infantile ad hominems, that be swell.

First of all, in a game without a subscription you’re not just dropping $50 for the game, but all the content that comes out after the expansion as well. For the money I spent for the first Guild Wars 2 game, I got all of Season 1 and Season 2 of the Living Story, EoTM, 3 new maps, Fractals, a number of holiday events, and some great memories of playing. I’ve had a lot of fun for a lot of hours for my money.

I’m going to guess that Hot comes out, and I’ll be getting content updates moving forward from there, not just the price of hot but all the stuff that comes after. The first game was well worth it, I’m not sure why the second won’t be. People are literally arguing over $10. And if you do buy gems with any regularity, the people who are actually financially supporting the game regularly, you not only get a character slot but you get your next lot of gems at half price by buying the Ultimate Edition.

Saying other games have no bearing on whether you play this one is only slightly problematic. In a perfect world, that would make sense, but in the world of MMOs, where you don’t just buy a game by you buy access to a world, the landscape is different. Anet has 300 employees working on stuff five days a week around the year to bring you some of the content we’ve played between expansions. Other games, for the most part, don’t have this. Just MMOs. And those people have to be paid somehow.

People act like kitten price tag for a game like Heart of Thorns is this huge outlay of money for what you’re getting, forgetting about what we got for our first initial outlay. There are games in this industry that do give you more in expansions, but they also charge you a subscription fee each month and in some of them, you also get less content between expansions.

No matter what game forum you go to for an MMORPG, you’re likely to find a hostile fanbase, who are only interested in their own experience in that one game without wondering why the experience is like this.

$50 may seem like a lot of money for a one time purchase based on what we’ve seen so far, keeping in mind there’s still more we haven’t seen. But that’s not what we’re buying.

And no one can tell value if they don’t care it to something else out there. Value is a comparison of what’s available for the price.

Soda may not have been the best example as most know that soda is ridiculously cheap. The containers are where the costs lie. The cost of the soda itself is in the neighborhood of 1 cent per 12oz.

Vayne.8563:

First of all, in a game without a subscription you’re not just dropping $50 for the game, but all the content that comes out after the expansion as well. For the money I spent for the first Guild Wars 2 game, I got all of Season 1 and Season 2 of the Living Story, EoTM, 3 new maps, Fractals, a number of holiday events, and some great memories of playing. I’ve had a lot of fun for a lot of hours for my money.

I don’t believe that is true. Do you believe that ANet would have been able to provide all that LS content at no cost if the gem store had not brought in many millions of dollars per quarter? I don’t.

In fact, ANet at one point stated that they were happy with store revenue and that it allowed them to pursue their goals for the game, and that certainly includes their presentation of post-launch features and content. Whether you personally bought gems is irrelevant. Games with virtual store revenue generation do not require all participants to pay to cover operating expenses and produce profits.

What’s most likely based on standard business practices is that the large infusion of cash at launch went to pay off loans that allowed them to spend five years producing the game with minimal income from GW. Some leftover funds might have been “saved” for future development, but that would not have carried them a fraction of the way to HoT without the store. The rest would have gone to bonuses for staff and management and profits for the publisher — which is certainly not involved for altruistic reasons.

anx.7549:

I remember back in GW when new players came into the game six, seven and eight years after the game was released. I don’t think I witnessed ‘veterans’ behaving in such a manner when sweets, alcohol, and other goodies were made a lot easier to get in an effort to help newer players achieve their titles. Indeed, I remember the days there were no tiles and when chests required no key…. ah the good old days. I know, different issue, different context. Just saying entitlement is a dangerous state of mind.

Agreed many are unhappy with the price. Many would like an additional slot for a new character. Many would like to have purchased the expansion as it is, an expansion, not the base. Maybe if there could be a rational non- ranting, non -flaming post on the issue it would be taken seriously rather than the ‘kitten you, kitten the game, I’m never playing again’ stuff that has been flying around.

As for duration or quality, who says you have to pick? I want it all lol

You mean back in the days when Anet gave us free character slots when we bought their new games? Instead of making us pay $10 extra for it?

Essence Snow.3194:

Soda may not have been the best example as most know that soda is ridiculously cheap. The containers are where the costs lie. The cost of the soda itself is in the neighborhood of 1 cent per 12oz.

thats the point. Gw2 at $50 is cheap.

Wanting more from anet because you are a veteran is what this thread aims to point out as fallacy.

The reward for being a veteran is that you are a veteran. Every single new player who gets the sweet deal will be far behind you in terms of knowledge of the game, what sells, where to find the best gear, how to win the bag farm competitions, etc. Veteran players are the ones who have the sweet skins. Veterans are so far ahead of new players that anet would have to entice people with a sweet deal to ever come and play. When I started wow I had to pay for the core game, which was bundled with the first expansion, then I had to pay for the latest expansion, then I had to pay a sub fee. Every few years I had to pay more money for expansions that trivialized all content released to that point, and I did it. Did the same for SWToR. Guild wars doesent do this.

As for the content not being worth $50, if I might diverge from the topic of entitlement: we dont even know what the content will be. SwTor sold an expansion a couple months ago that added 2 new zones, 2 raids, 4 dungeons, trivialized all the other content in the game by raising the level cap and gear ratings, and now sits in a spot where there is pretty much nothing to do.

Guild Wars 2 is basically redesigning the whole game.

If you’re someone who bought the original game, then never bought anything from the gemstore and are up in arms about the price. I agree, that’s textbook entitlement. Honestly screw you guys.

However, ANet hasn’t gotten this far off of their game sales, they got this far because people believed in their game, they were passionate about their game, they LOVED their game. And to show it they purchased gems, thousands and thousands of them, Millions of dollars worth. To the people who say that those who supported ANet are acting Entitled by expecting some love returned to them for their continued support… well screw you too.

As for the issues, well, We’re looking at kitten dollar PRE PURCHASE, yes that means they’re asking players to put their faith in them such that they’re giving them money months ahead of receiving their product. And, well, for what? Simply because they’re loyal? Wait wait wait, is this a one sided relationship? And people are saying the players are in the wrong for expecting something for their Investment, and that’s what it is, an Investment, not a purchase, a purchase you pay money you get your stuff, no, this is an investment. This is saying “hey, ANet I believe in you, so here take this now, I trust you’ll use it well and repay me with a quality game when it’s ready.”

Now, what do you get for your investment, well at the base level, you get… access to betas. Whoa! you mean I get to test your game for free, wait a minute, isn’t that what you HIRE QA people for? Umm… ok… Well I guess I get to preview content… but that doesn’t seem right, isn’t that what you should be talking about to hype us up? Are you holding back to make it feel like we’re getting something for our money? So I’m paying you now, to know what I’m purchasing and getting at a later date? Well that just seems off.

I liked the suggestion I’ve seen recommended, New players get the standard game NOW, veteran players get a free character slot NOW. It satisfies the idea of “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours.” Really seems fair.

So that’s where I stand on that whole issue. However, personally I have another big sore spot about this whole thing. We still have no idea what we’re getting.

Sure, we know we’re getting Revenent, we know we’re getting gliders and guild halls. Stronghold is coming. And, while not requiring the purchase a WvW map is coming as well. And, Lastly, we’re getting some level of new PVE zones. Now, cool, but is that worth $50 to me? Well, personally, Nope. The only reason I’m here is to hear about this new “Challenging Group Content” but I’ve yet to hear even a whisper about what it is.

Now, when I purchased and often pre-purchased my old games, of course as I touched on earlier, I’d see some kind of gift as a thanks for the advanced money, but we’d also get an outline of what we were purchasing. Now some say “I don’t want them to ruin the story” “I want to experience it all when it’s available not ruined by talk” Well… that’s not what I’m talking about, at all. What I’m asking for is for some information, maybe a demonstration of what they mean by “challenging group content.” That’s not going to ruin anything, if it’s challenging a quick preview or a general rundown of what to expect won’t ruin a single thing. But more than that i want an outline of what we’re getting.

It’s something I see as standard for an expansion. Every game I played through expansions with would release these things.

• 3 new maps far more expansive than ever seen before with multiple levels such that you should consider them at 9 or even more of our standard maps.
• Guild halls, explore your creativity, bolster your relationships, We’re putting the GUILD back in GuildWars.
• New style of sPVP is coming, Lead your team through and crush the opposing forces and take out their lord.
• Challenging Group content, you’ll see dozens of new bosses built for you and your friends to test your might against… can you pull it off? We think not.
• Gliders… need we say more?
• Specializations, your profession may never be the same.
• Revenent, Umm… awesome? well we think so.

That’s what I expected to see at the top of their pre-sale page. As people like the soda analogy, do I not get a nutritional label? An ingredient list? Even a label telling me the brand and a size indicator in case I couldn’t judge from the packaging? I don’t go to McDonalds and as for a soda and gamble on whether I’ll get a thimble full or Coke (which I hate) or a Gallon of Dr. Pepper (which I love). No, I get what I ask for, knowing what I’m spending my money on.

If asking to know what you’re buying is “entitlement,” well kitten, I’m entitled and the whole god kitten country is full of Legally enforced entitled suckers.

That’s enough rambling, but god, the polarization of the community is quite entertaining right now.

Jerus.4350:

And to show it they purchased gems, thousands and thousands of them, Millions of dollars worth. To the people who say that those who supported ANet are acting Entitled by expecting some love returned to them for their continued support… well screw you too.

People who bought gems got what they paid for, the gems and anything they were able to trade those gems for. I did not buy a thousand dollars worth of gems to show devotion or anything of the sort. I bought them to use.

Believing that you are somehow owed more than you paid for is kind of one of the definitions of entitlement.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

CureForLiving.5360:

And this is where OPs argument comes in. Veteran players have already gotten their value for money out of the core game. OP views this “veteran players have to be rewarded” as being entitled. I’m not sure exactly how I feel about it, I do feel however that ANet doesn’t really owe veteran players anything since well veteran players paid for the game and they got the game. For me it’s similar to when someone buys the game and a year later it goes on sale and then veteran players complain about that (which is actually a thing that happened on these very forums).

Customer X stayed with a business since it opened. He’s bought various menu items in the store and praises the game. Then, one day, the owners push Customer X aside, after he just bought a big meal, to pamper a new customer who may or may not stick around. The owner now also wants Customer X to repay for a previous meal, or a meal he just bought a moment ago, if Customer X wants dessert. And it will cost twice as much if he wants silverwear.

Should Customer X be angry? What price does the business put on Customer X’s loyalty? Should Customer X suck it up and be happy because he got good service beforehand?

That’s the question ANet is asking its most loyal players. And it’s not one that should’ve been ever asked in the first place. It’s not entitlement.

It’s asking to be treated with respect as a paying, and loyal, customer.

Your analogy is all wrong. What you are describing (to use your example) is a long time customer coming into the restaurant, taking up a table, maaaaaaaaaybe buying a burger, some fries and a beer and finishing his/her supper and continuing to keep that table occupied while new and PAYING customers wait in line to be seated.

At some point, the restaurant will have to make a decision: upset the non-paying customer or accommodate the new customer. That’s what OP is saying. You’ve already paid and eaten your supper. Now you want to hold up the restaurant for a FREE dessert when they have the opportunity to make more money off a new customer.

It’s not shady. It’s not evil. It’s not disrespectful. It’s a matter of business.

Ashen.2907:

Jerus.4350:

And to show it they purchased gems, thousands and thousands of them, Millions of dollars worth. To the people who say that those who supported ANet are acting Entitled by expecting some love returned to them for their continued support… well screw you too.

People who bought gems got what they paid for, the gems and anything they were able to trade those gems for. I did not buy a thousand dollars worth of gems to show devotion or anything of the sort. I bought them to use.

Believing that you are somehow owed more than you paid for is kind of one of the definitions of entitlement.

And in purchasing HoT I get the full base game with it, but not if I already have an account. So I’m not able to get my full purchase, give me a key for an alt account and we’re talking, but we’re talking receiving less than what I pay for.

“but it’s a bonus, it’s not what you’re buying” but it is what a new player is buying. It’s why the team is giving refunds to people who recently purchased the game. So it has value to them, but not to people who have been playing for a while?

I’m a firm believer in connotation and degrees of meaning. If I say this package is bad, I’m giving it a negative value. If I say it’s terrible, I imply that it’s worse than just bad. If I say it’s appalling, I imply that it’s not just bad, not even just terrible, but that it’s offensive that it even exists. However, by definition I could use any of these words. But using a more severe word for something that’s just bad devalues the more severe words, it verges on hyperbole.

Labeling someone Entitled because they see themselves being ripped off, not receiving the full value for what they purchase you’re lumping them with people who just want it cheaper. Someone who would like to see their loyalty reciprocated with some form okittennowledgement and thanks for doing so is insulted and demeaned being compared to a bunch of selfish greedy people. Well again, screw that logic. If you can’t wrap your head around that concept, well, that’s fine, it’s quite a common issue on these forums, especially right now. But I see it as just being insulting and no better than those rash overly aggressive miscreants (better words than I wanted to use, but I didn’t want a string of kittens) who sent PMs to the developers who had no choice in the matter. Lumping groups together is a shameful thing.

DieselFueled.3257:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Technically, Cure, that’s not correct. ANet told us that the core game was needed to play the expansion. So . . . people bought the core game beforehand. Heck, some bought it days before this release.

And now? You get the core game with the expansion. That’s three shades shady to more than few people who shelled out that money. You’re ‘soda and chips’ example is moot in that regard.

And yes, you do have the right to be angry. I’m not saying it is or isn’t justified. I’m just saying it’s why many people on the boards are peeved with this announcement is all. Again, if I bought something for forty dollars at Wally-World, and then the next day they gave it away . . . um . . . yes. I have the right to be angry.

Whether it’s a fair business practice is a different question.

Those people have been offered a refund towards HoT if their purchase was within the past 30 days. Relax.

But in exchange they have to have their old account terminated and start all over again.

fellyn.5083:

anx.7549:

I remember back in GW when new players came into the game six, seven and eight years after the game was released. I don’t think I witnessed ‘veterans’ behaving in such a manner when sweets, alcohol, and other goodies were made a lot easier to get in an effort to help newer players achieve their titles. Indeed, I remember the days there were no tiles and when chests required no key…. ah the good old days. I know, different issue, different context. Just saying entitlement is a dangerous state of mind.

Agreed many are unhappy with the price. Many would like an additional slot for a new character. Many would like to have purchased the expansion as it is, an expansion, not the base. Maybe if there could be a rational non- ranting, non -flaming post on the issue it would be taken seriously rather than the ‘kitten you, kitten the game, I’m never playing again’ stuff that has been flying around.

As for duration or quality, who says you have to pick? I want it all lol

You mean back in the days when Anet gave us free character slots when we bought their new games? Instead of making us pay $10 extra for it?

That indeed would be those days.

Huggywuggles.2814:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

CureForLiving.5360:

And this is where OPs argument comes in. Veteran players have already gotten their value for money out of the core game. OP views this “veteran players have to be rewarded” as being entitled. I’m not sure exactly how I feel about it, I do feel however that ANet doesn’t really owe veteran players anything since well veteran players paid for the game and they got the game. For me it’s similar to when someone buys the game and a year later it goes on sale and then veteran players complain about that (which is actually a thing that happened on these very forums).

Customer X stayed with a business since it opened. He’s bought various menu items in the store and praises the game. Then, one day, the owners push Customer X aside, after he just bought a big meal, to pamper a new customer who may or may not stick around. The owner now also wants Customer X to repay for a previous meal, or a meal he just bought a moment ago, if Customer X wants dessert. And it will cost twice as much if he wants silverwear.

Should Customer X be angry? What price does the business put on Customer X’s loyalty? Should Customer X suck it up and be happy because he got good service beforehand?

That’s the question ANet is asking its most loyal players. And it’s not one that should’ve been ever asked in the first place. It’s not entitlement.

It’s asking to be treated with respect as a paying, and loyal, customer.

Your analogy is all wrong. What you are describing (to use your example) is a long time customer coming into the restaurant, taking up a table, maaaaaaaaaybe buying a burger, some fries and a beer and finishing his/her supper and continuing to keep that table occupied while new and PAYING customers wait in line to be seated.

At some point, the restaurant will have to make a decision: upset the non-paying customer or accommodate the new customer. That’s what OP is saying. You’ve already paid and eaten your supper. Now you want to hold up the restaurant for a FREE dessert when they have the opportunity to make more money off a new customer.

It’s not shady. It’s not evil. It’s not disrespectful. It’s a matter of business.

And if I hung out, buying $16 glasses of overpriced wine throughout the night? Then saw a couple come in and get a plate of Nachos to which I inquire “Ohh, those look good, what’s that?” “Ohh it’s our complementary appetizer for those that come in after 8pm” “ohh, well, could I get those?” while we sit there with a growing $300 tab… am I being entitled?

I don’t think so. However, if I decided that if the answer was “No, it’s only for those that come in at the right time” that I’d leave, ok, I could see the label of entitlement. However if I consider leaving only a 15% tip instead of a 20% tip, I wouldn’t call it entitlement, it’s not what I’d consider good service. And, see what’s what a pre-order is, it’s a tip, it’s an investment, It’s saying you have faith in the company. That you value them. The question here, is do they value you? And, right now, it doesn’t seem so, at least not to the level that they’re asking that you value them.

Jerus.4350:

And in purchasing HoT I get the full base game with it, but not if I already have an account.

This is not accurate. Whether or not you have an existing account you can buy HoT and get a new full account that includes both the base game and the expansion content.

You can, of course, make the choice to forgo the second base account by choosing to link to an existing account. You have an option not available to a new player

Jerus.4350:

Labeling someone Entitled because they see themselves being ripped off,

I am not lumping anyone together with anyone else and I am not labeling anyone as entitled for feeling ripped off. I am stating that believing that one is owed more than one paid for is entitlement. This point was made specifically in reference to a claim, or implication, that someone who paid for X number of gems and received X number of gems is somehow due more than the gems.

As to the expansion:

I think the price point is reasonable in general. I expected somewhere between $40 and $50. On the other hand I think that not including a character slot in an expansion that has a new class as a selling point is a bit fishy. Requiring that people spend additional money beyond the price of the expansion in order to make full use of the expansion’s features seems cheesy to me.

That said, I don’t think that I will be buying the expansion. To date they have not announced anything that I would be currently willing to p ay for at any price. As much as I stated that $50 seems like a reasonable price in general, I don’t consider what I have seen announced for HoT as being worth even $5 to me.

Your last two paragraphs I completely agree with.

And I do admit you’re right that loyalty doesn’t demand anything. I mentioned it more out of a response to all the people saying “you only paid $50”, no, many of us have spent much more than that. And, sure, you can start a fresh account forgoing all your progress, or you can get less than what you paid for to get it on your main account… that’s an issue to me.

I guess I’ll end in saying that I don’t think it’s being “entitled” to expect some return for loyalty, but just to demand it.

EDIT: I also don’t think it’s “entitled” to voice your opinion about what you think is wrong, and I think there is a lot wrong about this whole situation. Just like in the previous analogy a few posts back. If I racked up hundreds of dollars at a place and see them treating the customers just arriving to a treat, I wouldn’t leave a full tip, and I’d likely comment to my waiter or someone on the staff (manager if I could identify them) that they may want to reconsider their approach to the situation as it would shape their customers view on the place. And, I don’t see that as entitled, and I think it’s silly to label it as such when it implies such a negative thing.

I’d elaborate in saying that not long ago I was on a business trip, going out to eat every night with a large group, dropping large sums of money, well, the first place we went (close easy walking distance from the hotel) was understaffed, meaning slower service, and overworked employees who were stressed and just wanted to get things done (want to comment that we’d probably have doubled our bill had we been able to get more drinks ). Overall still decent food, worth the money. But, we decided to try a place a little further away, well, the next few nights we got excellent service, nice sociable waiters/waitresses, and much swifter service. Guess where we’re going every night next time I go there? I say this as an aside, a comment on the idea of treating customers with respect and value, It’s not like there aren’t other MMOs, and many of us are on the fence already. Does ANet simply not care? Well, that’s the feeling I’m getting. Does that make me Entitled, no, it just further shapes my opinion of the company and enforces my considerations as to how I approach them. Again, $50 like you said Ashen, not a concern. The fact that we’ve yet to hear about anything related to the content I’m anticipating, the fact that they don’t want to give any treats to their loyal customers, well it just furthers my view that they’re goal is not in line with my expectations of what they were, no ill will, just my cold rational opinion.

Jerus.4350:

I guess I’ll end in saying that I don’t think it’s being “entitled” to expect some return for loyalty, but just to demand it.

For me, on the continuum of request > —- < demand, “expecting” something is very close to demand and very far from request.

Also, for me, the issue of the “free” copy of GW2 is not an issue. The expansion costs $50. Like Ashen, I expected that cost. Heck, I predicted it in multiple threads.

Anet, as a business, wants to sell as many HoT copies as possible. Could be they believe that requiring a prospective customer to buy both the game and HoT is too high a barrier to entry. Maybe they just believe that they will get more new blood if they make it easier for people to buy in. Whatever their reason, the decision is theirs to make. Why not just give accounts away, then? Tying the free account to kitten purchase limits the ability of RMT providers to make free new accounts.

That said, I still think that those who bought new accounts (1st, 2nd, etc. does not matter) since the HoT announcement do have some grounds to expect consideration since ANet changed the requirement to have GW2 for access to HoT. The semantics of saying, “GW2 is required but we’re giving you the core game with HoT.” may make the older position “technically” correct, but it was still misleading.

They arent forcing you to pre order it. They are providing you an opportunity to preorder it, for whatever reason you want to. if you want to pay for it in advance as some personal display of faith, fine. htere is probably a metric analysis of consumer behavior that indicates there are people who will do just that, and so the chance to pre order exists.

I highly doubt people are buying gems just to show their appreciation for a job well done. Anet isnt some hot waitress you tip $20 because she had a great set of teeth.

First, I want to say, Greymelken, the best waitress, the one I’ve tipped the most, wasn’t a hot waitress, but one that was on top of things, not bothersome, but just available, nice, and great at her job. See her once a year at the end of an event, she’s awesome, knows us, expects us, and a wonderful person… but anything from hot And it’s much more than $20

And, I’m not here to say that I’m being forced to do anything, I’m merely voicing my opinion. And, that’s where I think the entitlement thing is wrong. I don’t even feel it’s aimed towards me, so offense would be the wrong words, but I see it as insulting to those being labeled as such as I think they have valid points as they voice their concerns.

To Indigo, the cost isn’t something unexpected. Those trying to get it cheaper I agree, bunch of entitled pricks. But, expecting something out of a pre-order beyond testing their game for them, well, I think that’s pretty reasonable. Not out of some random expectation but because it’s quite a common thing. My views on this are shaped by games I’ve pre-ordered in the past. You get little gifts in return for your investment. But, ANet didn’t even make an attempt. Just like I in my business try to respect my customers and offer more than what is actually purchased.

I see the entertainment marketing as a game of smoke and mirrors, you’re trying to hide your money grubbing, we all of course know what’s going on, and that’s fine, but you veil it behind something to make it seem like it’s not. Same reason you get “20% more” in a bottle of shampoo. Make the customer feel like he’s getting something of value. But, ANet failed at that.

In the end I don’t see the responses here for the most part (although to be honest I’ve not read the majority of the Gen Discussion, HoT discussion, or Reddit responses) to be entitlement but simply a response to ANet’s lack of tact in their approach to their customers. I see even prominent members of the community as a whole like Brazil taking the time to make a video erring his grievances. ANet’s asking more than normal (pre-purchase) and giving nothing, or even worse, less than what they’re giving to new players. If entitlement is simply expecting companies to value their customers, well, kitten , I’m been doing business all wrong.

Though, you’re right, we’re not owed it. I’m not demanding something more. You may feel that’s a fine line, but, it’s a line. It’s simply one more piece of straw on the camel’s back for me.

My waitress tip is directly proportionate to how HoT she is, im not paying her to do her job.

Anet’s job is to entertain me.

Greymelken.1892:

Anet’s job is to entertain me.

So the question is:

Have you been entertained by your time in GW2?

TBH, I personally think that to “rework” something means GW2 is not out of beta. FF14 also redesigned the entire game, not? In FF14 case, they make it free while they are redesigning the game.

I am curious, what exactly is included in the expansion that the vanilla gw2 cannot access to justify the $50. I hope the contents in the future announcements can justify that cost.

Ashen.2907:

Greymelken.1892:

Anet’s job is to entertain me.

So the question is:

Have you been entertained by your time in GW2?

I know it’s not towards me, but personally I haven’t been since I decided to stop supporting them with real money, I can always gold → Gem, and lately I haven’t even had the desire to do that.

Their promise of “challenging Group content” is what got me curious again, if it werent for that I wouldn’t be posting in General and I’d stick to chatting with friends in the Trash forum(dungeon) and other places.

I will say, Greymalkin’s response is as expected. Pretty = worth money. Quality, who cares.

It’s a fair question. Honestly, I log in to get my daily reward, do a handful of daily events for that reward, and then PvP (kind of) to get the track rewards. Afterwards, I log off.

Entertained? I feel like it’s more OCD than anything lately. . . .

Not so much for myself any time recently. The breaks are getting longer each time.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

It’s a fair question. Honestly, I log in to get my daily reward, do a handful of daily events for that reward, and then PvP (kind of) to get the track rewards. Afterwards, I log off.

Entertained? I feel like it’s more OCD than anything lately. . . .

^

Yah, unfortunately that’s what I’m doing also. I log for Teq to get the karma and pray for a Teq hoard (Yeah I know, fat chance). Then the dailies, including the PvP title track dailies, maybe a key run. Then I’m out.

Ashen.2907:

Greymelken.1892:

Anet’s job is to entertain me.

So the question is:

Have you been entertained by your time in GW2?

absolutely.

lighter.2708:

By your logic everyone should be happy about monthly fee, yet it’s a dying business model.

and btw you don’t value an entertainment on duration, you value an entertainment on quality

And truly high quality entertainment keeps you coming back for more.

People are just getting stuck in the kitten over the fact that Anet’s doing preorders for the expac without revealing everything in the expansion. Mind you, they’re probably the same crowd that kittened over EoTN’s price too. People need to get over it. Anet’s going to be charging $50 for a long time, perhaps a year or more, until the first sale happens. If you guys want to wait for a year while the rest of us have moved on to LS5, feel free to do so quietly and out of public sight.

Basandra Skye.4031:

People are just getting stuck in the kitten over the fact that Anet’s doing preorders for the expac without revealing everything in the expansion. Mind you, they’re probably the same crowd that kittened over EoTN’s price too. People need to get over it. Anet’s going to be charging $50 for a long time, perhaps a year or more, until the first sale happens. If you guys want to wait for a year while the rest of us have moved on to LS5, feel free to do so quietly and out of public sight.

Seriously, how dare people ask to know what they’re paying for! The nerve. They should just pony up and pay for the privilege.

. . .

While I enjoy Guild Wars 2, I’m not dropping a dime until I see something of what I’m getting beyond vanity items. Call me a miser, but I work for a living. I tend to want to know where and on what I’m spending my money.

Basandra Skye.4031:

People are just getting stuck in the kitten over the fact that Anet’s doing preorders for the expac without revealing everything in the expansion. Mind you, they’re probably the same crowd that kittened over EoTN’s price too. People need to get over it. Anet’s going to be charging $50 for a long time, perhaps a year or more, until the first sale happens. If you guys want to wait for a year while the rest of us have moved on to LS5, feel free to do so quietly and out of public sight.

Naw, I’ll post whatever I feel like in public sight. You feel free to ignore it.

No one is suggesting that people are daring to ask what they’re paying for. Some people, however, are suggesting they feel they know enough and if others don’t, they’re free not to buy it. It’s not like you need to preorder the game this second, there’s plenty of time to do that after you have more info.

The fact that some people are interested in the game with the information we have should be enough for people who don’t think we have enough to realize that Anet didn’t necessarily do the wrong thing by offering a prepurchase now. After all, people have been asking for it.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to wait for more info. There’s also nothing wrong with preordering.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Seriously, how dare people ask to know what they’re paying for! The nerve. They should just pony up and pay for the privilege.

. . .

While I enjoy Guild Wars 2, I’m not dropping a dime until I see something of what I’m getting beyond vanity items. Call me a miser, but I work for a living. I tend to want to know where and on what I’m spending my money.

Im not going to call you a miser, based on this insightful missive I would call you a pragmatist. Now, if you could take that same pragmatic approach to this situation and walk away from it since it clearly isnt relevant to you, I might even call you wise.

Look, kittens: if it bothers you that much, turn away from it. Howling about it is only going to remind you of how uncomfortable you are about it. Unless you enjoy being miserable, your lives would be enhanced by removing the things that cause you duress whenever you are empowered to do so.

Argue for your discontent, and sure enough: its yours.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Basandra Skye.4031:

People are just getting stuck in the kitten over the fact that Anet’s doing preorders for the expac without revealing everything in the expansion. Mind you, they’re probably the same crowd that kittened over EoTN’s price too. People need to get over it. Anet’s going to be charging $50 for a long time, perhaps a year or more, until the first sale happens. If you guys want to wait for a year while the rest of us have moved on to LS5, feel free to do so quietly and out of public sight.

Seriously, how dare people ask to know what they’re paying for! The nerve. They should just pony up and pay for the privilege.

. . .

While I enjoy Guild Wars 2, I’m not dropping a dime until I see something of what I’m getting beyond vanity items. Call me a miser, but I work for a living. I tend to want to know where and on what I’m spending my money.

Why ask when anet gave, is giving, and will continue to give info about what’s in the expac? It’s like open season on fools posting on the forums right now. They see anet doing preorders and they suddenly go bat-kitten insane and blind themselves to anything except the information already out, and linking THAT information to assuming anet is trying to gouge customers.

By all means be patient to see if it’s worth it to yourself. But when people choose to flip kitten when it’s not even all shown…. I pity society and the direction it’s going in.

Basandra Skye.4031:

Why ask when anet gave, is giving, and will continue to give info about what’s in the expac?

That would be nice, were it actually true. It isn’t.
Unless, of course, you think silence is golden.

This happened:

Hey, remember the reddit post with the help for recent buyer of GW2.
Guess what ?
Here; their answer to people asking for help.

http://i.imgur.com/T0lpOQO.jpg

And let’s just pretend this never happened,shall we?:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/194261/hot.png

/sigh You people… brown-nosing until the very end…

Ashen.2907:

Jerus.4350:

And to show it they purchased gems, thousands and thousands of them, Millions of dollars worth. To the people who say that those who supported ANet are acting Entitled by expecting some love returned to them for their continued support… well screw you too.

People who bought gems got what they paid for, the gems and anything they were able to trade those gems for. I did not buy a thousand dollars worth of gems to show devotion or anything of the sort. I bought them to use.

Believing that you are somehow owed more than you paid for is kind of one of the definitions of entitlement.

you arent owed anything for buying gems, but nor was anet giving you anything for free either. They created the business plan to make money, and it made money. Just like a store isnt opened for your benefit, it is created to make money by being a place for you to buy products.

basically GW2 was like a lifetime admission to a theme park. But they still charge you for the drinks, the gift shop, and the games. Fair enough, turns out they make a ton of money that way.
they then added an annex to the park. they want pretty close to the same price for a new life time admission pass.

what it comes down to is, is it worth it?
at the current price, with what we currently know about whats going to be in the annex, and the extras offered with the new pass, a lot of people are saying, uhhh not really.
and thats not entitlement, thats just making a descion on whether to buy an item based on what you know about it.

now for people who never bought the initial lifetime pass, its a pretty great deal. For others, well the analogy is pretty apt, so you can decide for yourself.

Hot is for level 80 characters you do no require a new character slot to enjoy hot. If you think the price is to much then don’t buy it now.

Wait till its out and ls season 3 comes out and/or you see more reviews that peak your interest.

You are not required to pre-purchase. How is this hard to understand. If you don’t like what you have seen or feel its not worth it don’t buy it.

Most of us have been playing gw for awhile, while we don’t all agree with anet choices we love them game. Do you really believe Hot will be any less.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Hot is for level 80 characters you do no require a new character slot to enjoy hot. If you think the price is to much then don’t buy it now.

Wait till its out and ls season 3 comes out and/or you see more reviews that peak your interest.

You are not required to pre-purchase. How is this hard to understand. If you don’t like what you have seen or feel its not worth it don’t buy it.

yeah thats what people are doing, and since this forum is still available to people who only have the core copy, expect to hear their opinions on that descion as much as they want to talk about it.