Guild Wars 2

Shakkara.2641:

Raine.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.

I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.

salutes

Finally someone that understands.

I’m not going to play a game that renders all my efforts useless and keeps me on an endless treadmill to nowhere, especially not if this endless threadmill keeps milking me of my money. I play Guild Wars 2 because I thought it’d not have endless vertical progression and planned obsolescence. GW1 was king at this. And I’ll be up on the barricades to make sure that GW2 will eventually live up to its legacy and not stray from the path even as the developers stray away from what makes this franchise special and turn their back on every principle set forth in the manifesto.

And by the way, entropy isn’t that inevitable at all. One can only break the laws of nature when one understands that they’re not set in stone.

Yes, I too oppose the mandate that we ride a power curve. I still count that the worst decision by Anet to date. Entropy, I suppose, is only inevitable if you consider the universe a closed system. I believe that, even if that is true, order is free to increase in any corner where it is sought. And, furthermore, I see the opposition to entropy as being, perhaps, the singular vocation of humans.

Have we gotten a official answer on this? This one of those subjects they hopes dies off in a few days to be buried so new players don’t see it?

Sad that I think that’s how they operate but I do. They some times ignore threads like there doing now, or they stand behind the forum code of conduct like its a shield to protect them. Weeding out ideals that don’t mesh with there’s or paint the game in a negative light.

Either way I only post cause I am extremely upset at the state of the game. I really enjoyed GW1 and thought GW2 would be just as epic but was sadly let down.

Keep this thread active, but be respectful about it. They have to know that there’s a large number of us who are unhappy about the change (and some who don’t see any problem). All we can do now is continue to let ANet know that we would like some answers to our questions.

I imagine they’re just deciding what to do about this situation right now.

rogerwilko.6895:

Sorry, it is very hard to come up with a post that will have a small chance of being deleted by the oh so vigilant moderators.

So one day they put that piece of kitten in the gem store, the next day a forum thread with 530 replies 9937 views gets locked because on well, the truth is not good for business, and now we are all good kids and play nice.

Right?

4’th of April can’t come fast enough.

It was only locked, not deleted. You can still go read where people are being jerks to each other.

I want a mining pick that has a chance to mine ectos and torment weapons.

I think this pick was a majour mistake.
1) the previous tools were all about convenience and added character customization

2) they were no different than any ori tools in game- just infinite

3) with this pick they closed the avenue of customization because now people are concerned with the" benefits" and “possible future benefits”

4) long term this will lose them sales because people will be less likely to buy a cool tools in case something “better comes along”

5) By selling a tool that does what no other tool in the game can do- in addition to being infinite, for real money ( gold conversion is irrelevant imo) it is very definitely paying for advantage that you cannot get from ingame tools- that is ptw

6) loss of goodwill will cost them sales- i have 2 sets of the tools- I will not buy another, when I was planning on buying all future tools because I like to match them to my characters.
Nevermind the collateral damage from people who simply will not support a ptw game

I wanted to point out something I have seen mentioned a few times in this and other topics. I think people are getting mixed up on the ability to convert gem’s to gold.

People need to understand that someone somewhere had to buy the gems they buy with gold. Making all Gem store transactions real money transactions. That’s why the gold to gem conversion ratio keeps going up.

The only way this wouldn’t be a real money transaction would be if Anet had a set cost for gem’s 25 gold = 100 gems type conversion. They would also have to do away with the ability to convert gem’s to gold.

angelpaladin.7921:

I wanted to point out something I have seen mentioned a few times in this and other topics. I think people are getting mixed up on the ability to convert gem’s to gold.

People need to understand that someone somewhere had to buy the gems they buy with gold. Making all Gem store transactions real money transactions. That’s why the gold to gem conversion ratio keeps going up.

The only way this wouldn’t be a real money transaction would be if Anet had a set cost for gem’s 25 gold = 100 gems type conversion. They would also have to do away with the ability to convert gem’s to gold.

I don’t think it really works that way. The value of gems is a constant in real life and are essentially unlimited. The value of gold in game doesn’t change and is unlimited. The whole artificial market manipulation ANET does is to raise the value of gems to gold so people will want to spend real cash instead. How ever much cash in real life it cost to buy some gems is what it always is and there is way more supply for gems in real life than there is demand, there is no shortage of something that is unlimited.

The whole exchange rate thing is basically made up to entice people to spend real money.

Adding loot that is unobtainable to nodes via a gem store item is offensive. I own the the previously un-gamebreaking Molten Pick which only skinned the the mining of nodes, giving me zero advantage. This is a horrid move by Anet, and one that makes me worry about the future of this game, and my time spent playing it.

Nihilus.3015:

I want a mining pick that has a chance to mine ectos and torment weapons.

Try playing assasin in GW1 ;D

Like I said in the other thread, I don’t like this direction at all. The pre watchwork picks were already for my taste over the line but I didn’t mind them too much. This one on the other hand pretty lucks like an experience how far a.net can go, same with the armor skins.

Anet’s gotta eat, fellas. Calm down, it isn’t that bad. Buy it with gold if you can’t afford the 12 dollars. And even if you don’t get it this time, save up and get it next time. They always bring that stuff back.

Ayrilana.1396:

Gene Archer.8560:

Ayrilana.1396:

The precedent that future scavenge items will offer additional bonuses to getting items that are already available (and will remain so) to players in-game? Yep. A very dangerous precedent indeed.

And where else in the game, aside from the gem store, can you get a pick that gives a bonus chance to get “specific item x” ?

Gold to gems and voila. You don’t have to spend real life money.

Interesting argument.

Imagine the following scenario:

ArenaNet introduces Superascended weapons, with 10% better stats than ascended weapons. They are only available in the gem store for 20,000 gems a piece. People start to whine: that is pay-to-win!

Would you really respond with “Gold to gems and voila. You don’t have to spend real life money!”?

Yes, the advantage of superascended weapons in game is far larger than some measly extra sprockets. But advantages are there in both cases.

Btw: Black Lion Salvage Kits were the first pay to win items because of their 100% chance to recover runes and sigils.

When I first heard of this I thought ‘Has Blizzard taken over the game?’, couldn’t believe it.

Don’t upgrade to this new pick and you’ll be worse off.

So, what’s next?…monthly fees?

I would like to know if this pick is a permanent addition to the gem store. If it is, then it makes a big difference to me.

The main reason I am wary of it is because of the sprocket issue. I just don’t think it’s a great idea to give people a means of harvesting items that will no longer drop in the world (I am leaving out the nodes because many people will not have participated in the LS, and newer players will miss it entirely).

However, if the pick is a permanent addition to the store I am less concerned. People who do not wish to spend real money on it will have TIME to save gold in order to convert to gems if they wish to have the pick. So in the end, the only advantage is a who gets it first.

If it’s a limited item (as all the others have been, and this is where I’m concerned), then many won’t be able to afford it – real money or gems. It’s not the point to say you don’t have to spend real money. We know that. But I do if I want the pick now (and if I have to have it now because it’s limited time only) because I don’t have enough gold to convert to 1000gems and I am not likely to have the time to play often enough to get the gold needed before the pick disappears from the store.

If they just made it permanent, it removes the restriction entirely because anyone who wants it will be able to get it, and it will only be a matter of time. That bothers me much less.

Gene Archer.8560:

Ayrilana.1396:

The gem store is in game. Whether you can get gems with gold or real money is irrelevant. Please pay attention to that fact.

No, the gem store is auxiliary to the game. It’s a part of the game, but it’s not -in- the game.

Aside from that, you still have not told me where else in the game, aside from the gem store, which is a cash shop, I can get a pick that gives a specific bonus.

There isn’t..but why bother asking the same question over and over ?

On subject:
I have this one..earned gold, converted to gems, bought the kitten thing and love it. And even more..I also have the other infinite pick. It saves me from switching gathering tools between chars everytime I switch. And I switch a lot…

Araziel.7201:

Anet’s gotta eat, fellas. Calm down, it isn’t that bad. Buy it with gold if you can’t afford the 12 dollars. And even if you don’t get it this time, save up and get it next time. They always bring that stuff back.

You are missing the point completely.
No none is saying that Anet does not have to eat and no one is denying that the gemstore supports the game.

the gold you convert to gems- those gems where bought with real money by someone else and converted to gold.

Whether or not we can afford it is not the issue either.

The issue is adding an item in the store that gives an advantage that no in game item gives.
So it is no longer cosmetic or convenience.
The store is about cosmetics and convenience.

This is why everyone is upset

@Claudius.5381.
Although BLSK do give you a 100% chance of getting the rune back- they do not qualify as pay to win to me because I get them for the game.

Mystic Kits have such a high salvage rate in my experience that I rarely use my Black Lion kits

I certainly don’t get sprockets from my ori tools- or from my other unlimited tools either

Hmmm, I have not such a huge problem with the mining pick itself but somehow I got the impression that they are testing the waters. How far can we go. For me it’s a similar thing like those mining nodes in the home instance. At the moment those are only tiny advantages but my concern is that it becomes more and more.

Sry for bad grammar, someone resetted my grammar skill(

Morrigan.2809:

Araziel.7201:

Anet’s gotta eat, fellas. Calm down, it isn’t that bad. Buy it with gold if you can’t afford the 12 dollars. And even if you don’t get it this time, save up and get it next time. They always bring that stuff back.

You are missing the point completely.
No none is saying that Anet does not have to eat and no one is denying that the gemstore supports the game.

the gold you convert to gems- those gems where bought with real money by someone else and converted to gold.

Whether or not we can afford it is not the issue either.

The issue is adding an item in the store that gives an advantage that no in game item gives.
So it is no longer cosmetic or convenience.
The store is about cosmetics and convenience.

This is why everyone is upset

@Claudius.5381.
Although BLSK do give you a 100% chance of getting the rune back- they do not qualify as okay to win to me because I get them for the game.
Mystic Kits have such a high salvage rate in my experience that I rarely use my Black Lion kits
I certainly don’t get sprockets from my ori tools- or from my unlimited tools either

This is the main reason I really think it was a bad idea to introduce this. I do not think it is the mythical slippery slope but I would very much like them to remove the non cosmetic aspect of this item.

Gems can be purchased with gold, so I don’t see this as pay to win.

hellsmachine.4085:

Gems can be purchased with gold, so I don’t see this as pay to win.

In most real pay to win games cash-shop currency can be bought with ingame currency too.

So this argument doesn’t work for me.

but guys you cant have ur pick and eat it too

Pirlipat.2479:

hellsmachine.4085:

Gems can be purchased with gold, so I don’t see this as pay to win.

In most real pay to win games cash-shop currency can be bought with ingame currency too.

Then it’s not a “real” pay to win game. Have you played AoC unchained? You could not win end game pvp with out paying. That’s what I consider “real” pay to win.

Well I played Runes of Magic and most of your stats depended on the use of cashshop-items.

Edit: I’m not saying that GW2 is that way, I’m just saying that the argument that you can buy cash-shop currency with gold or whatever applys for many games (RoM is by far not the only one) which require cash-shop purchases to stay competitive in end-game and pvp. (RoM had a gift function, but the principle was similar: pay gold to someone and get the cashshop-item from him)

Anet always closes thread they dont want to answer and dont die down by themselves quick enough.

The pick is more trouble than it is worth, be that you hate it or are ambivalent towards it. It is doubtful the money gained is worth the hit to Arena Nets credibility and customer relations.

The best thing they can do now is give remove the item from the game, apologise and give a gem refund.

Personally I have issues with such items being in the gem store, they are not in the spirit of Arena Net’s “cosmetic only” stance. It renders previous harvesting tools inferior and removes players trust in regard to not knowing if what you are buying will not just be outdated in one or two months. Also the bonus stat is not obtainable through regular (not purchasing) means of gameplay, something Arena Net said they never intend to do.

Claudius.5381:

Btw: Black Lion Salvage Kits were the first pay to win items because of their 100% chance to recover runes and sigils.

. . . except for them dropping out of Daily completions some of the time. And potentially out of map completion. Oh, and out of the chests where you can earn Keys in game and never spend Gems on them.

Whew, wow, I am totally glad I spent no Gems at all for my Black Lion Kits and paid to win.

Morrigan.2809:

Araziel.7201:

Anet’s gotta eat, fellas. Calm down, it isn’t that bad. Buy it with gold if you can’t afford the 12 dollars. And even if you don’t get it this time, save up and get it next time. They always bring that stuff back.

You are missing the point completely.
No none is saying that Anet does not have to eat and no one is denying that the gemstore supports the game.

the gold you convert to gems- those gems where bought with real money by someone else and converted to gold.

Whether or not we can afford it is not the issue either.

The issue is adding an item in the store that gives an advantage that no in game item gives.
So it is no longer cosmetic or convenience.
The store is about cosmetics and convenience.

This is why everyone is upset

@Claudius.5381.
Although BLSK do give you a 100% chance of getting the rune back- they do not qualify as pay to win to me because I get them for the game.

Mystic Kits have such a high salvage rate in my experience that I rarely use my Black Lion kits

I certainly don’t get sprockets from my ori tools- or from my other unlimited tools either

I don’t consider the item p2w. I fully understand your concern with p2w items coming to the gem store . I wouldn’t like it either, but I’m sorry to tell you that it’s already that way with the gem to gold exchange.

Anet has given everyone free permanent access to the sprockets anyway with the home instance node for completing LS.

The sprockets will be cheap enough for anyone to buy. The people yelling the loudest about this probably have stacks of the things they were waiting to sell after the LS.

Not sure if this has already been said since I didn’t read every post of the 3 pages but the reason see this being wrong is not the fact that it gives a chance at sprockets which we can all agree isn’t gonna break the bank for anyone. It’s the point they are releasing an infinite tool that is making the other ones completely obsolete. Now imagine if they did this to say ascended armor. Next week they release ascended armor 2 which has 4 stats on it yet they leave the old ascended as is. Or imagine if next week they made legendaries version2 which has 20 more stat points on it. Would all of you with old ascended or legendaries version 1 say “oh no biggy, its how the the game works”? I really doubt it especially if you just made a legendary 1 month before that.

The whole point to these BiS items is that they will be BiS for at least 6 months. And with this new pick, I don’t see why they would stop with just the pick. Why not make an axe that gives globs of ecto or a harvest tool that gives pristine spores or like my examples, a new legendary that has +20 stats above the legendaries now. I mean +20 stats isn’t gonna break the bank either but regardless, it will trump the supposed BiS item and render all that work obsolete.

Like others have said, if Anet wants to keep it this way, then it should either refund the old picks or make them tradeable to BLM for the upgrade. I mean legendaries are always going to be upgraded with a new upgrade in weapons, why shouldn’t these picks be too.

Bottom line is this decision has made me leary of purchasing anything from the gem store except purely cosmetic stuff since now I wont know if my purchase will be trumped and obsolete in the next month or 2.

And for all those saying it’s P2W, the old infinite tools are P2W too really since you have to purchase both anyways. My point is that they added this whole new “skill” to the new picks which like I said, makes all previous purchases of picks completely obsolete and opens the door to them doing this kind of stuff to anything in the game be it armor, weapons, trinkets, back items, anything which could render your months of work obsolete and outdated.

The worst part is that a month or so ago Anet was offering the Molten Alliant trio of pick/axe/harvesting tool for 2850 gems if I remember correct and now this new pick which I’m sure will be followed by a new axe and harvesting tool. I feel bad for the guys who paid for that trio set.

Copy of my previous post from the closed thread
Dangerous Precedent: Watchwork Pick
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dangerous-precedent-Watchwork-Pick/page/10#post3567216

Yet, again we have to write things down twice because some people just can not control themselves…….

I really dislike the new mining pick mainly because old pick < new pick. They cost the same, they are both for convenience and still the new one is better than any of the old ones.

I never bought any of those permanent picks since their price was way too high for me and did not worth buying them. I do not mine that often and since I have a permanent merchant I do not need to own one. Still the problem stands for all those players who bought previous ones just for its convenience (and not the effect). Now they feel tricked and wish they had bought this pick instead of the previous versions.

All this said it is not P2W. Why, you ask? Because you can buy it with in game gold. Just think of it as if Anet placed a new merchant in game from whom you can buy it for 90g or whatever the current exchange is.

The pick adds loot to mining that no other pick can get. My harvesting tools are solely cosmetic and infinite, which give me zero advantage over any other player who uses Ori picks.

This is a massive red flag for GW2 in my opinion, and I think we are in for serious P2W items soon. Say what you will about sprockets being cheap and that a player will not make any real money from using these picks over Molten Picks, but sprockets trade for the same amount as copper ATM. This game is headed in the wrong direction.

Mireles Lore.5942:

The time is Neigh, The End is NEAR!

Why do I have the visual of someone standing directly behind a horse?

This is not pay to win, not even remotely close to it. The only people arguing it is are the ones that had to change the definition of pay to win, creating a straw man argument which they then can attack. Pay to win shops allow you to purchase an advantage against other players in a PvP environment that they cannot get otherwise, that’s the original and real definition. Redefining the phrase and then arguing against your redefinition is dishonest at best. I’ve played a few games that had actual pay to win. If anyone thinks this is pay to win, they need to get out more.

I have molten alliance pick, what’s the reason of all these messages ? Is the new pick a lot better than molten alliance pick ? What’s the difference ?

Umut.5471:

I have molten alliance pick, what’s the reason of all these messages ? Is the new pick a lot better than molten alliance pick ? What’s the difference ?

The only difference is that the new pick gives you a percent change to mine a sprocket in addition to your haul. I’ve seen 20% tossed around, so basically you’d average one sprocket every two nodes or so.

VOLKON.1290:

This is not pay to win, not even remotely close to it. The only people arguing it is are the ones that had to change the definition of pay to win, creating a straw man argument which they then can attack. Pay to win shops allow you to purchase an advantage against other players in a PvP environment that they cannot get otherwise, that’s the original and real definition. Redefining the phrase and then arguing against your redefinition is dishonest at best. I’ve played a few games that had actual pay to win. If anyone thinks this is pay to win, they need to get out more.

Where is your citation that it is only PvP? If a game allows you to get all the best gear, unlocks and so on by paying a fee, that’s pay to win. This can be done in any game, be it single or multiplayer environments. The only difference is the impact it has. Most don’t care in a single player environment as it doesn’t adversely affect any other player with it.
However, in the case of this tool, it affects quite alot of people. Add on to the fact that this will be a limited material once the event is over to those who only grind the event for the time gated node. That is used for a variety of useful items for various classes and even a gearset.
WvW is affected right there, your PvP aspect that you needed if any.

But addon to the fact that also players who start off on equal footing, a player who has this pick can either gain an added monetary bonus for selling off the sprockets or a distinct bonus of acquiring a soon-to-be time gated material (and those without the node are even worse off).
Taking either route, the monetary one would allow them to buy things they need or want faster than the other and if they choose the other they have access to a limited or exclusive set of items the other will be lacking which could make a difference in performance, which could adversely affect leaderboards.

Sprockets trade at the same value as copper ATM, once Scarlett is gone, they should go up. Adding loot to nodes which is only obtainable using this pick is terrible.

I’d like to see where this definition of P2W being exclusive to PvP too. Pay to win means just that, you are paying to win be it PvE or PvP. In this case, it’s PvE although again, we are talking about sprockets which are pretty cheap. My point is that Anet is willing to sell obsolete items(any pick pre this new pick) with the full on knowledge that said items will become obsolete in a couple of months is just plain underhanded and a slap in the face to it’s customer base.

Now before you Anet bandwagon guys say Apple or Microsoft of any other company does the same by introducing new products, you got to understand, they need to do this to stay competitive with the other companies. Anet has no competition with this pick other than with themselves so the argument about Ipad 3 or 4 is pointless. And when they do introduce a new item, it’s not 1-2 months from the release of their newest item.

What’s to say they won’t introduce a new axe or harvesting tool next and maybe even another pick that is better in say 6 months when the sales of this new pick start to flatten out.

Claudius.5381:

Ayrilana.1396:

Gene Archer.8560:

Ayrilana.1396:

The precedent that future scavenge items will offer additional bonuses to getting items that are already available (and will remain so) to players in-game? Yep. A very dangerous precedent indeed.

And where else in the game, aside from the gem store, can you get a pick that gives a bonus chance to get “specific item x” ?

Gold to gems and voila. You don’t have to spend real life money.

Interesting argument.

Imagine the following scenario:

ArenaNet introduces Superascended weapons, with 10% better stats than ascended weapons. They are only available in the gem store for 20,000 gems a piece. People start to whine: that is pay-to-win!

Would you really respond with “Gold to gems and voila. You don’t have to spend real life money!”?

Yes, the advantage of superascended weapons in game is far larger than some measly extra sprockets. But advantages are there in both cases.

Btw: Black Lion Salvage Kits were the first pay to win items because of their 100% chance to recover runes and sigils.

It’s unlikely they will ever do that. Adding some absurdly high gem cost does not help to support your argument. As long as people can convert gold to gems, nothing in the store will technically be pay to win. I also don’t recall them ever selling anything that gives players a direct advantage over other players.

Black Lion Kits are not pay to win. You can get them from dailies (I have about 5 on another character) or from black lion chests by farming keys or getting lucky with a key drop.

Ayrilana.1396:

Claudius.5381:

Ayrilana.1396:

Gene Archer.8560:

Ayrilana.1396:

The precedent that future scavenge items will offer additional bonuses to getting items that are already available (and will remain so) to players in-game? Yep. A very dangerous precedent indeed.

And where else in the game, aside from the gem store, can you get a pick that gives a bonus chance to get “specific item x” ?

Gold to gems and voila. You don’t have to spend real life money.

Interesting argument.

Imagine the following scenario:

ArenaNet introduces Superascended weapons, with 10% better stats than ascended weapons. They are only available in the gem store for 20,000 gems a piece. People start to whine: that is pay-to-win!

Would you really respond with “Gold to gems and voila. You don’t have to spend real life money!”?

Yes, the advantage of superascended weapons in game is far larger than some measly extra sprockets. But advantages are there in both cases.

Btw: Black Lion Salvage Kits were the first pay to win items because of their 100% chance to recover runes and sigils.

It’s unlikely they will ever do that. Adding some absurdly high gem cost does not help to support your argument. As long as people can convert gold to gems, nothing in the store will technically be pay to win. I also don’t recall them ever selling anything that gives players a direct advantage over other players.

Black Lion Kits are not pay to win. You can get them from dailies (I have about 5 on another character) or from black lion chests by farming keys or getting lucky with a key drop.

Ok, I can follow you regarding the BLC kits, if barely. But what you say is that they can offer anything in the stores, like unique sigils, runes, gear, infusions for gems, power food (100% more power for one hour), anything you can think of, without limits, and you would say that is not pay to win because you can buy gems for gold?

Sorry, but this sounds weird to me.

I said it in the first thread, and I am repeating it now: ANet must either give this bonus to ALL EL picks and same-tier in-game picks, or remove it completely. P2W will lead to bad things in the long run.

I also think it’s disrespectful on ANet’s side that they haven’t given a response to the outrage caused by this issue, but they did have the time to close the previous thread. A post from them in this thread or other announcement about this would be greatly appreciated.

Please don’t let this topic die and be forgotten!

Pirlipat.2479:

Well I played Runes of Magic and most of your stats depended on the use of cashshop-items.

Edit: I’m not saying that GW2 is that way, I’m just saying that the argument that you can buy cash-shop currency with gold or whatever applys for many games (RoM is by far not the only one) which require cash-shop purchases to stay competitive in end-game and pvp. (RoM had a gift function, but the principle was similar: pay gold to someone and get the cashshop-item from him)

Can you elaborate on what exactly it was that you had to buy to stay competitive in those games?

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

I said it in the first thread, and I am repeating it now: ANet must either give this bonus to ALL EL picks and same-tier in-game picks, or remove it completely. P2W will lead to bad things in the long run.

Unfortunately, them upgrading the picks will not happen. Much like the Deluxe Edition issues prior, they aren’t going to make them better for free in this regard. They will either change the sprocket pick or say ‘deal with it’ like the other cases.

Claudius.5381:

Ayrilana.1396:

Claudius.5381:

Ayrilana.1396:

Gene Archer.8560:

Ayrilana.1396:

The precedent that future scavenge items will offer additional bonuses to getting items that are already available (and will remain so) to players in-game? Yep. A very dangerous precedent indeed.

And where else in the game, aside from the gem store, can you get a pick that gives a bonus chance to get “specific item x” ?

Gold to gems and voila. You don’t have to spend real life money.

Interesting argument.

Imagine the following scenario:

ArenaNet introduces Superascended weapons, with 10% better stats than ascended weapons. They are only available in the gem store for 20,000 gems a piece. People start to whine: that is pay-to-win!

Would you really respond with “Gold to gems and voila. You don’t have to spend real life money!”?

Yes, the advantage of superascended weapons in game is far larger than some measly extra sprockets. But advantages are there in both cases.

Btw: Black Lion Salvage Kits were the first pay to win items because of their 100% chance to recover runes and sigils.

It’s unlikely they will ever do that. Adding some absurdly high gem cost does not help to support your argument. As long as people can convert gold to gems, nothing in the store will technically be pay to win. I also don’t recall them ever selling anything that gives players a direct advantage over other players.

Black Lion Kits are not pay to win. You can get them from dailies (I have about 5 on another character) or from black lion chests by farming keys or getting lucky with a key drop.

Ok, I can follow you regarding the BLC kits, if barely. But what you say is that they can offer anything in the stores, like unique sigils, runes, gear, infusions for gems, power food (100% more power for one hour), anything you can think of, without limits, and you would say that is not pay to win because you can buy gems for gold?

Sorry, but this sounds weird to me.

You should look up on the original definition of the phrase rather than the one that people have twisted on the forums. It won’t sound weird to you after that.

They have yet to even offer sigils and other items like that. The problem that people keep making is that they are making absurd exaggerations in an effort to support their argument. They’re also make extreme speculations. Anet has not ever come close to releasing anything equipment related other than skins. Assuming that because they released a pick with a 20% bonus means that they will now release armor, sigils, and such is absurd.

I see people do this in many arguments because it’s easy to get others worked up and support your side. Throw in something that they can appeal to and you have them hooked regardless as to whether the accusations are true or not.

Ayrilana.1396:

Pirlipat.2479:

Well I played Runes of Magic and most of your stats depended on the use of cashshop-items.

Edit: I’m not saying that GW2 is that way, I’m just saying that the argument that you can buy cash-shop currency with gold or whatever applys for many games (RoM is by far not the only one) which require cash-shop purchases to stay competitive in end-game and pvp. (RoM had a gift function, but the principle was similar: pay gold to someone and get the cashshop-item from him)

Can you elaborate on what exactly it was that you had to buy to stay competitive in those games?

….

Pirlipat.2479:

Well I played Runes of Magic and most of your stats depended on the use of cashshop-items.

No more elaboration than that is needed. That cash shop let you buy stat boosts and other such things that puts you at a competing level with top tier players who grinded for many hours to get to that level.

Sure, people always try to argue (normally not very well I might add), that you can just grind your way through the game, and buy everything with ingame money without ever spending a penny.

That is generally a pathetic argument because the moment you have the ability to spend real world money for an advantage of any kind over another player, no matter how big or small, and no matter if you can obtain it by just grinding it out, the game becomes pay to win, because you don’t need to invest time anymore to get your power or advantage, or minor convenience. You only need a few dollars.

(edit, and yes, I think those unlimited gathering tools are pay-to-win because they let you do exactly that. I do not believe that is a bad thing, but, the PRECEDENT set by Anet in allowing people to purchase ever powerful gathering tools to give them even more convenience for less ingame effort is definitely a scary thing, and Anet needs to address it. We’re at well over 600 posts between this thread and the one that was locked. Its time for a response.)

Personally I don’t care about this pickaxe at all, I have the Home Instance node and a ton of sprockets too, I know it’s more about what it means for the future but it’s not the worst thing that could have been added, but obviously this is causing enough of a debate for something to be done about it in the near future maybe.

The only things I (and evidently other people in this thread) can think of that could solve this is either;

1. Add limited use picks either before or after sprockets become harder to obtain (Like if the ending to the LS ends up with no more Minion attacks and obviously no more marionette) this could also be done with pristine spores if they did add a sickle.

2. Sprockets (and maybe spore samples) become obtainable in either gathering node (outside of Home instance ones) where applicable at some point after/during the LS (e.g. Toxic spore sprouts start growing in Kessexs Hills after the tower fell, this could also further the story and evolve the world a little bit.)

3. Just remove the pick. Personally I don’t usually like resorting to “Oh fine just get rid of it” because SOME people might like the idea or like me couldn’t care less. Although if it causes this much controversy then it might be worth removing the pick, compensating anyone who bought it and maybe taking it back to the drawing board and thinking of a different idea.

This is just my personal feelings on this subject.

I like them. Will probably buy one soon and give my bone pick to an alt. Although if we could dual wield mining picks that would be nice…

VOLKON.1290:

Umut.5471:

I have molten alliance pick, what’s the reason of all these messages ? Is the new pick a lot better than molten alliance pick ? What’s the difference ?

The only difference is that the new pick gives you a percent change to mine a sprocket in addition to your haul. I’ve seen 20% tossed around, so basically you’d average one sprocket every two nodes or so.

The rate is much better than that^. For me it is anyway. I get one sprocket per node around 90% of the time , occasionally 2, quite rare for me to get 0.

P2W or not, one thing’s for sure.

Anet deserves the backlash they get for this item. It’s very nature is pretty much pushing at the edges and boundaries, and they should know better having observed other gaming companies, player opinions on them, and learnt what to and not to do. |:

Whether it’s a problem or not, at this point the obstacle to “fixing” it is that people have spent a non-trivial amount of money on the item knowing that it had this bonus feature. The damage to customer relations caused by nerfing a cash shop item to take away a specific selling point poses a lot more danger than whatever “precedent” people think it sets.

So if they want to “fix” it in regard to other cash shop tools, the only viable option at this point is to add some sort of similarly trivial and useless “bonus” to them, to address the legitimate gripe that tools of equal cost did not come with a trivial and useless bonus of their own.