We Don't Make Grindy Games

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Posted by: Kartel.2561

Kartel.2561

I do have to agree that this feels like it’s not as much content as it should be ..and it’s absolutely shamelessly “extended” to forced you to grind and make it all take longer than it has to. So then you can say “I put x-number of hours into HoT, so it must be a big expansion with SO much cool stuff to keep me busy”.

In GW1 expansions, we got a lot more maps and more story progression. It never felt like a grind. It was just natural progress, and plenty of content to progress through (and it took them FAR less time to make with a smaller staff).

Now there’s a lot that I do like about HoT, but I’d be lying if I said this didn’t feel “wrong”. I feel like it’s pretty clear that this xpac lacks content and Anet knows it. It’s just so blatant how they’ve structured things to force grind as some kind of replacement for the kind of natural progression their previous products had.

After 3 years, finally getting our first xpac, I do find this disappointing and maybe even insulting. Grindy filler is not a replacement for actual content and, unlike actual content, it doesn’t provide the same kind of enjoyment. It doesn’t make me want to get back to it. I “should” be playing right now, but I’m tired of story instances getting stuck and unable to progress, and tired of grinding events over and over to see my exp bar move up half a centimeter each time.

Am I trying to “rush things”? Maybe. Probably. I don’t have as much time to play as I did a decade ago. I have a family and a job. Gaming is supposed to be a fun distraction, not another job I don’t have the time or energy for. When I do have a decent window of time to play, I want to be able to feel like I can make it worthwhile. So far I feel like I’ve done an awful lot of “work” and gotten very little out of it. Still so much more work to do and I don’t see overly amazing things coming out of that either.

This doesn’t feel like time well-spent for me or the devs. I expected quite a lot more fun (and non-broken) content for as long as this took to come out. Instead we got a small amount of content (that often doesn’t even work properly) and a tremendous amount of busy-work to make it all seem like more than it really is.

Guild: Everlasting Sacred Path [ESP]
Server: Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Wish.5832

Wish.5832

I only want to add one thing to this entire thread in hopes that they actually read it and use it to better the game;

I was having next to no fun in the first few hours in HoT, not because the game itself was not fun, but half of the new zone was gated behind these masteries. I was running around aimlessly in hope of finding events ect, as I had no idea how this zone worked ( I skipped the betas to save myself the burn out). This was not fun, the grind for the first few masteries was just plain horrible, and these events hardly do anything about that.

Now, with the bad said, I am having fun again after I finally got my first few masteries to get around. The gliding and the mushrooms ect are fun and so on. Getting past that hurdle was a struggle but I am glad I did for the most part. If I had to make any suggestion, it’d only to put these few MUST HAVE masteries as story quest rewards. Give us gliding after a story quest, then let us progress more. Give us the bouncy mushroom ’’mastery’’ after another story quest ect ect. This would make the pacing a lot better in my opinion.

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Posted by: Celtic Lady.3729

Celtic Lady.3729

They need more ways to get mastery points. Once I grind my way through the bar for a new skill like mushroom jumping, I don’t have any mastery points to use to actually get it.

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Posted by: ArmoredVehicle.2849

ArmoredVehicle.2849

If it wasn’t for my friend I wouldn’t have bought the expansion, personally I have zero interest in it. I’ve played it for a few hours yesterday and today and all I saw was “learn this and learn that” and by learn I mean it’s literally just mindless grind.

It seems like ANet forgot how to make an expansion the right way, the whole area is hardly any solo friendly, if you ain’t zerging or with some group then get ready to have your butt handed to you, my surprise when I had to kill a champ for Hero points – What the hell? and was timed also, was just me and my friend killing it otherwise no way I could do it alone as a warrior.

I may not have seen the entire expansion yet but from my point of view, this is hardly any different from the living stories we got, and most definitely not worth the asking price.

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Posted by: Celtic Lady.3729

Celtic Lady.3729

Yeah, a lot of people are mad that hero challenges are no longer soloable. Hope ya’ll don’t play alts because good luck getting help with these once everyone else has completed them all in the beginning rush.

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Posted by: Malediktus.9250

Malediktus.9250

People have no idea what grind is. This is merely some character progresion typically for (MMO)RPGs.

1st person worldwide to reach 35,000 achievement points.

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Posted by: Zoltar MacRoth.7146

Zoltar MacRoth.7146

I only want to add one thing to this entire thread in hopes that they actually read it and use it to better the game;

I was having next to no fun in the first few hours in HoT, not because the game itself was not fun, but half of the new zone was gated behind these masteries. I was running around aimlessly in hope of finding events ect, as I had no idea how this zone worked ( I skipped the betas to save myself the burn out). This was not fun, the grind for the first few masteries was just plain horrible, and these events hardly do anything about that.

Now, with the bad said, I am having fun again after I finally got my first few masteries to get around. The gliding and the mushrooms ect are fun and so on. Getting past that hurdle was a struggle but I am glad I did for the most part. If I had to make any suggestion, it’d only to put these few MUST HAVE masteries as story quest rewards. Give us gliding after a story quest, then let us progress more. Give us the bouncy mushroom ’’mastery’’ after another story quest ect ect. This would make the pacing a lot better in my opinion.

THIS ^

My experience was the same. The first few hours were tedium, just struggling to get the glider. Once I got it… I have to admit, the glider is just awesome. The joy it brings somewhat offsets the pain of working towards getting shroom bouncing. I agree with the above – these two essentials should be unlocked early via a story. They’re crucial to giving you the freedom to play your way. Without them, you feel like you’re following a linear path, as some other poster said, because you actually are.

Speaking of shroom bouncing… there are some masteries that just don’t make sense. Learning to read some hylek language or how to use the exhalted devices is a sensible mastery track. But why do I need to learn how to jump on a mushroom? Especially after spending months using the dry top jump crystals, which did not require any mastery? Or all the jumping puzzles I’ve finished, which involved far more complicated parkour with no training. By the six gods, it’s just jumping. You bend your knees and push up. We’ve all jumped on trampolines. I think we can jump on a mushroom. This is a mastery that makes me feel stupid.

But overall, I am enjoying it. The verticality is a welcome concept. Who doesn’t jump off a cliff just to feel like batman, gliding over gotham? Now if only I had a grappling hook I wouldn’t need those mushrooms..

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Posted by: Shivan.9438

Shivan.9438

It’s long been said that the vocal minority will be the ones that developers pay attention to. Because the silent majority are willing to put up with change or quit.

People screamed that the content in GW2 was too easy, often solo’ed and zerg’d into the ground. Well Anet listened and put a stop to it. People moaned that they wanted to do stuff with their guild and that guild features were lack luster if not non-existant. What did Anet do? Do stuff with guilds so you need a group or a guild to complete stuff in the game.

People b!tched that mobs could get mowed over and the game was turning into a tag fest. So, Anet put in mobs that you can’t tag and run away from or plow over.

People asked for it, they got it. Beware that old saying. “Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.”

Perhaps next time, people will learn to speak up about what they want before allowing others to do it for them. “If you don’t ask you don’t get.”

Reap it.

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Posted by: Tamasan.6457

Tamasan.6457

I’ve been playing HoT nearly every waking hour and have yet to run into a grind.

I think many of you have a very different definition of “grind” than I do. A grind isn’t being required to “do something.”

To me, a “grind” is being required to do a boring repetitive task in order to advance. I’ve got plenty of mastery ranks and am halfway through the story and have yet to do hardly anything twice, let alone over and over. And there’s plenty of stuff I haven’t even touched yet.

If you’re farming mobs over and over, or doing the same events over and over, yes, it’s going to feel grindy. But it is because you have chosen to turn them into a grind instead of experiencing the full range of content available.

You have a choice. You can speed level your masteries in an optimal manner in the grindiest ways possible and be bored out of your mind, or you can do a wide range of brand new things and rank your masteries up in an organic fun way like this is a game and not a job.

Don’t complain when you’re intentionally choosing grind instead of fun.

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Posted by: fixit.7189

fixit.7189

Here’s my suggestion after playing for a few days; grind until you have updraft and mushroom hop. Once done, go to the Dragon map that is basically a moba then grind events over and over. If you can’t get there by your self which is probable, find a ‘friend’ who has access there and use a port to friend thing.

Once you get enough mastery levels to access HPs, go back and hope someone has posted a guide to get them.

What ever you do, do NOT stay in any other hot maps; the exp there is pathetic and there is next to no chained events. There are some but they usually break at some point so I really suggest going to the dragon map instead; this is where EVERYONE is heading to now.

On that note, this moba event is on the level of TTS in needing coordination to complete so you will have to be content to farm the chains instead until it inevitably fails. Pugs will never succeed in this event but at least you can get good exp until then.

Lastly, they have pretty much increased the level cap, added grind walls, and also ‘reputation’ grinds on top of that. Bascially, HoT has an insane amount of grinding. ie. doing the exact same things over and over again for a very long time.

I can understand why they did this, they did it like this is to put up grind walls to slow people down to a crawl.

(edited by fixit.7189)

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Posted by: pants.9486

pants.9486

I agree with OP 100%. The Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto is a hilarious joke in the face of HoT.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

Regardless about how you feel about the longevity of the content, the quotes above can not be reconciled with what I’m seeing in HoT. Being forced to grind orange circles so that I can explore the map, or do the next piece of story with my friends is absolutely the definition of preparing to have fun.

Without a doubt, GW2 was designed around catering to the WoW audience more than the GW1/people-that-hate-traditional-mmorpgs audience. As time has gone on that audience has only become more tightly targeted, and now with HoT, it’s been taken to 11. It’s a disappointment, and I miss the ArenaNet that made GW1.

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

I see this perceived “grind” as post-80 leveling. Character progress-which is why I am being patient with it (when I made my first character, during headstart, she didn’t even become level 80 until after week and a half or two-I forgot.)

I think we’ve been playing GW2 for a while, and got used to do things right away-especially when beta events gave us our new, instant spec “fix”.

I think ANet should have been more open about the Masteries, so what players new what to expect. Maybe they hinted at this gating, but many, many players expected unlocks way faster than the current situation. Indeed, I was eager to play Druid with a new Ranger, but after realizing his lack of hero points (77), just made a new Revenant, deciding to enjoy the game as if I was a new player, and taking my sweet time with it (level 40, atm.)

Of course, that’s my experience-which I doubt every player will share, but at least it’s another healthy, non-depressing perspective to have. See this “gating” as character progression towards the final goal.

(Game seems pretty good right now-Revenant, as good as it is, seems “beta”, because they didn’t care to add appropriate water skills for two of the Legends.)

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Posted by: Archy.1046

Archy.1046

I think anet should make a special server for “no-grinders” where you get 9 characters lvl 80, full 100% map, all skins, all legendaries and etc. So they don’t have to grind. Just please anet, don’t NERF the HOT. Now it is almost perfect. Whiners gonna whine anyway.

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Posted by: Erick Alastor.3917

Erick Alastor.3917

the rest of this game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff
we just dont want players to grind in guild wars 2 noone enjoys them noone find them fun we want to change the way people knew combat

oh wait a second now its time for Heart of Grind

“I grind a hero point i grind a heroe point again heyhe i grind it again thats great

I like the name Heart of Grind. I’ll start calling it HoG because it suits it.
When around 8 months ago I said this was gonna happen, nobody believed me, and now many of the people who were skeptical are crying.

To quote myself:
_____________________________________
If there will be enough content to provide experience points without the need to repeat the same tasks over and over I could be ok with it, but I strongly doubt this will be the case (there is RNG Cox behind the creation of this system).

Also they want to tweak the peace based on the BWE where basically all players are the “most dedicated guys” in the game?

Everyone should know by now that most of them are people that rush like there is no tomorrow to complain there is nothing to do right after.

I’m astonished by how this community once formed by players who hated the mindless grind of standard mmorpgs turned over time into a blob of fellas asking for more time-gated stuff to feel they achieved something.

Probably I’m one of the few who still remember when they said they wanted Guild Wars 2 to be a game like Halo or COD: you turn it on, look at a list of games, then you get in and you play.

Still thinking about what will happen when my friends will be on that platform asking me to fly over there, but I will not able to reach them because they grinded 24/7 their masteries.
_____________________________________

Check the gif.
“In regard to gated content via gear then I think this is something we are going to give more thought to”.

They have been thinking about it the whole time, then decided that the word “gear grind” was a bit too hard to force on the gw2 playerbase so they changed it to “mastery system”. We should be happy to play WoW with better graphics.

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“Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.”
- Mike Obrien

(edited by Erick Alastor.3917)

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Posted by: fellyn.5083

fellyn.5083

The grind only exists for people who’re in a rush. My tip: don’t rush and don’t impose deadlines upon yourself (aka: “I need every mastery point before wednesday”). Just play the game and progression will happen naturally.

good luck & have fun!

Yeah, how dare people want to play with new specs. How dare they!

No rushing past the things you couldn’t care less about to get to the things you do care about! What is wrong with you people!?!?!

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Posted by: Fox Reeveheart.1890

Fox Reeveheart.1890

To the people defending the grind; Anet promised and sold GW2 as no-grind, no gating. That was what made GW2 special, better, and a pleasure to play. There are lots of games that play like HoT, and the old-school games are grindier. Except for GW1, which was less grindy than HoT.

So those of us who backed GW2, and enjoyed its different take on MMOs feel betrayed by HoT. What I’d like to see is the firing or forced resignation of the manager(s) responsible for this betrayal. I’m sure many of the developers opposed how this was structured, and some probably even got forced out or quit — HoT is a betrayal of the original company ethos.

There have been personnel changes in recent months. The CDIS exist only as memories.

This is not the same ArenaNet, I think, that originated the game.

I’d love to see them prove me wrong.

GW1: Bunch of nerds making a game with a fresh new idea of the time, was basically going to be the main competitor to WoW (which it failed to compete against WoW, but it held it’s niche spot firmly).

GW2: Draw your own conclusion. But colin still has the same goofy smile.

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Posted by: UNO.4906

UNO.4906

I’m extremely disappointed by this expansion/patch so far, every experience track got separated or couldn’t earn exp at all, you switch liquid xp into useless booster and god knows what else you’ve changed without proper notice and our consent on item that is already in our possession?
I’m not one of your fanboys who reads every patch notes and I’m disgusted by the way you treat players.
so much for pre-ordering this expansion, I’m gonna think thrice before purchasing/recommend Anet’s future product to my friends.

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Posted by: Crise.9401

Crise.9401

People have a funny definition of grind… sure you can grind the masteries up (For Tyria masteries: CoF p1, Sanguine Vault I am looking at you).

There you have a textbook definition of a grind, same repetitive actions over and over again. Normal gameplay, however, is not grindy when it comes to masteries unless you make it so.

I am absolutely not defending the 4+ million EXP for the later tier of masteries (especially the tyrian ones, since they slashed EXP bonuses from dungeons and fractals). However, even then if you can play varied content to gain that experience then it by definition is not a grind. It only becomes one if you choose to repeat the same events and stay on the same maps to do it.

If you want it all as fast as possible then yes, you are in for a mind numbing, brain dead and in cases physically painful grind, but that is your choice to make when you decide to go for optimal farms.

There are also large EXP bonuses coming from raids in a very near future, that will help at least as far as HoT masteries are concerned.

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Posted by: Zanther Deathbringer.4762

Zanther Deathbringer.4762

The grind only exists for people who’re in a rush. My tip: don’t rush and don’t impose deadlines upon yourself (aka: “I need every mastery point before wednesday”). Just play the game and progression will happen naturally.

good luck & have fun!

Yeah, how dare people want to play with new specs. How dare they!

No rushing past the things you couldn’t care less about to get to the things you do care about! What is wrong with you people!?!?!

I bet you’d buy max lvl character boost if you were playing wow, and then complain that it didnt boost you to the new max lvl when a new expansion was released.

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Posted by: fellyn.5083

fellyn.5083

The grind only exists for people who’re in a rush. My tip: don’t rush and don’t impose deadlines upon yourself (aka: “I need every mastery point before wednesday”). Just play the game and progression will happen naturally.

good luck & have fun!

Yeah, how dare people want to play with new specs. How dare they!

No rushing past the things you couldn’t care less about to get to the things you do care about! What is wrong with you people!?!?!

I bet you’d buy max lvl character boost if you were playing wow, and then complain that it didnt boost you to the new max lvl when a new expansion was released.

How much do you want to bet? I have nothing against leveling slowly. It’s the fact that to get anywhere you actually want to go you have to do something else first.

If the time investment actually served a purpose other than to stretch out the content I’d be perfectly fine with that.

But it doesn’t. And it’s blatantly obvious.

P.S. I got a free character boost when I bought WoD last year. Played the boosted character for about 4 days then leveled up another character the old fashioned way because I actually enjoyed the leveling process. Invested a lot more time in the leveled up character than the boosted one by a large margine.

So how much were you betting?

(edited by fellyn.5083)

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Posted by: SoulstitchMMO.1396

SoulstitchMMO.1396

My biggest beef is that if I want my Elite Spec for my Revenant in a reasonable amount of time, I need to do this ridiculous content. Every single other Character I’ve ever played since Alpha was 100% able to do everything I wanted between WvW and sPvP. Even back in Alpha the only time I ever did pve was for focus testing and I was asked to do it. Otherwise I’ve stuck with WvW and sPvP.

This expansion, and gating the Elites behind a ridiculous Hero Point Grind has killed that for me. I don’t trust Anet any more and will discourage any other gamers I know from trying this game until this is fixed.

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Posted by: Crise.9401

Crise.9401

My biggest beef is that if I want my Elite Spec for my Revenant in a reasonable amount of time, I need to do this ridiculous content. Every single other Character I’ve ever played since Alpha was 100% able to do everything I wanted between WvW and sPvP. Even back in Alpha the only time I ever did pve was for focus testing and I was asked to do it. Otherwise I’ve stuck with WvW and sPvP.

This expansion, and gating the Elites behind a ridiculous Hero Point Grind has killed that for me. I don’t trust Anet any more and will discourage any other gamers I know from trying this game until this is fixed.

You do have an option to do WvW for hero points, arguably better or at least equal to the one that we had at vanilla launch when skill points were a thing and you needed them for core skills. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/earning-hero-points-in-world-vs-world/

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Posted by: TheLastNobody.8319

TheLastNobody.8319

I am really having trouble understanding people’s definition of a grind. Was the content we were doing before not a grind?

A knight in shining armor is a man who never had his metal truly tested.

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Posted by: Tobias Trueflight.8350

Tobias Trueflight.8350

I am really having trouble understanding people’s definition of a grind. Was the content we were doing before not a grind?

Yes, it was the grindiest grind ever.

Or no, it wasn’t a grind.

Or yes, but it wasn’t this bad.

Take your pick, really.

Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.

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Posted by: Smoo.9423

Smoo.9423

I just can’t believe how boring HoT is, and Anet was pounding their chest and patting themselves on the should and it turn out to be this boring and confusing. It felt like it was a chore/job to do instead of being fun. To those that didn’t buy it, you not missing out on much. As a matter of fact, I envy those that didn’t waste their money.

I agree for the most part. I honestly try to avoid being negative, but I am legitimately annoyed this time. ANet is a good team- just check other MMO companies for an easy comparison. I will, however, say without a doubt in my mind that HoT did not deserve the amount of hype that we gave it. I play this game every single day, I’ve been loyal since the beginning, and have yet to get bored- until HoT was released and they nerfed the other parts of the game that are unrelated to HoT (dungeon rewards, fractal rewards, eotm rewards, other things). Those things were definitely nerfed to make the HoT content more appealing, which honestly should not have been an option. The HoT content should have been created to be significantly appealing on its own, but no we just resorted to nerf the rest of the game to make the new content look shiny. Even the new WvW map feels like a huge chore that I would just love to erase. I am actually worried that the WvW community won’t embrace these tedious new maps and that we won’t be able to recover from that. I know it hurts to read things like this, developers, but I’m trying to have faith that the sheer amount of negative feedback will yield positive results. I don’t want things to stay in this current state. Heart of Tedious things.

Proud member of Blackgate the bestgate the beastgate. Is you ok? Good cause I wanted to know.

(edited by Smoo.9423)

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Posted by: Substatic.6958

Substatic.6958

Why are the handful of people defending HoT all also throwing out insults?

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Posted by: Maris.3164

Maris.3164

I don’t understand. I have been “just” exploring and getting masteries unlocked while I was doing it. I’ve been doing the story, event chains, getting some masteries and some hero points. I’ve explored on the first three maps alone and haven’t even touched the last map yet and every minute of it has been an absolute blast.

Sure I’ve only barely dented my elite spec line but that’s because I went in on a revenant and ofc don’t have world completion. My bf who has been playing with me since friday was on his ranger and he’s now close to completing his elite spec. We spent at least an hour (usually more) every day doing Mad king’s labyrinth and other stuff in the original maps.

The only thing I agree with in the original post is that the hero challenges should be balanced around one person doing them because there are alot of people who play alone. But there’s nothing grindy about having to play the game and do different things to earn stuff. I think the “grind” only exists in one’s mind when in a hurry to complete everything.

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Posted by: ShadowKain.9410

ShadowKain.9410

The only things that you could argue are grind are optional bonuses and rewards that aren’t necessary. Those are there for the people who want to be hardcore.

.

Okay ty you convinced me

I start HoT now and play the new story.

… oh wait whats this O.o

…. i cant go on playing without grinding 5 mio xp to do the next story episode ( its more than from 0 to 80)

but nice guy at forum told me i only have to grind for optional bonuses and rewards that aren’t necessary.

it must be a bug O.o

until it will be fixed i go on swinging my sword and after that i swing it again cause thats great

You can say the same thing from the beginning. of the game, level 10 story need level 10. You should be level 20 for the level 20 area. can’t equip this awesome shield till I hit level 30. Everything need effort of the player. There no race though, so don’t try to burn your self out also.

Except, you can’t. This was a relatively recent change accompanied by further changes to turn Guild Wars 2 into a shameless Skinner Box.

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Posted by: Chicho Gosho.6507

Chicho Gosho.6507

We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.” – Mike Obrian

What happened to this philosophy? Literally everything in HoT is gated behind a grind.

-Want to start your story? Grind mobs/events for gliders!
-Want to get that hero point up there? Grind some more for a mushroom mastery!
-Want that other hero point? LOL got ya! Grind some more glider mastery for updraft.
-Finally made it up there? It’s a champion on a timer! Better hope someone else nearby has grinded as much as you!

This is annoying to begin with, but it gets even worse. Not only do you have to grind these masteries, but it’s not even a reasonable amount of grinding. The XP requirements are astronomical.

I’ve spent 90% of this expansion painfully grinding rather than enjoying the scenery and exploring.

I know some people are defending this system and saying the entire expansion should be challenging, but you are forgetting that casuals are what mainly makes our community.

While I’ll begrudgingly continue grinding, people like my wife will not. She is the perfect example of casual. She gets on, plays around, explores a little bit, and logs off after 2 or 3 hours. She watched me play HoT and quickly decided that it’s not for her. When I asked her what the biggest turn off was, she stated “that looks like way to much work just to explore and enjoy the scenery.”

Take this for what you will, but I just want to know when the old philosophy of “We don’t make grindy games” flew out the window.

There is 1 Hero point gated behind a mastery in the first map. Every other HP could be earned with the first level of gliding. ANet also said that gliding is mandatory for the new maps so is that a surprise to you and you get like 60% of the first level just from the first story mission?
You cannot finish absolutely everything in an MMO solo? facepalm
Finally playing the game is not a grind.

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Posted by: Zanther Deathbringer.4762

Zanther Deathbringer.4762

The grind only exists for people who’re in a rush. My tip: don’t rush and don’t impose deadlines upon yourself (aka: “I need every mastery point before wednesday”). Just play the game and progression will happen naturally.

good luck & have fun!

Yeah, how dare people want to play with new specs. How dare they!

No rushing past the things you couldn’t care less about to get to the things you do care about! What is wrong with you people!?!?!

I bet you’d buy max lvl character boost if you were playing wow, and then complain that it didnt boost you to the new max lvl when a new expansion was released.

How much do you want to bet? I have nothing against leveling slowly. It’s the fact that to get anywhere you actually want to go you have to do something else first.

If the time investment actually served a purpose other than to stretch out the content I’d be perfectly fine with that.

But it doesn’t. And it’s blatantly obvious.

P.S. I got a free character boost when I bought WoD last year. Played the boosted character for about 4 days then leveled up another character the old fashioned way because I actually enjoyed the leveling process. Invested a lot more time in the leveled up character than the boosted one by a large margine.

So how much were you betting?

So you rather collect yellow “!” and repeat the same old “kill 10 boars” or “spam que dungeons”, but complain about another game having a grind for 5 minutes to unlock the only mandatory ability (gliding), or complain that instead of progression to a new max lvl doing the same quests, you have to progress a new system that has 0 “!” quests.

So you miss WoW.

Got it.

(edited by Zanther Deathbringer.4762)

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Posted by: darkace.8925

darkace.8925

I think this article! is also worth a revisit.

“Now let me pose a second question: If the success of a subscription-based MMO is measured by the number of people paying a monthly fee, how does that impact game design decisions?

The answer can be found in the mechanics and choices made in subscription-based MMOs, which keep customers actively playing by chasing something in the game through processes that take as long as possible. In other words, designers of traditional MMOs create content systems that take more time to keep people playing longer. If this is your business motivation and model so you keep getting paid, it makes sense and is an incredibly smart thing to do, and you need to support it.

When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.

But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?

If we chose fun as our main metric for tracking success, can we flip the core paradigm and make design decisions based on what we’d like to play as game players? Can we focus our time on making meaningful and impactful content, rather than filler content meant to draw out the experience? Can we make something so much fun you might want to play it multiple times because it’s fun, rather than making you do it because the game says you have to? It’s how we played games while growing up. I can’t tell you how many times I played Quest for Glory; the game didn’t give me 25 daily quests I needed to log in and do—I played it multiple times because it was fun!" – Colin Johanson

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Posted by: Snakesteeth.5043

Snakesteeth.5043

all i wanna say is. if i die from a blod clot from the grind i expect a in game npc character made after me ….

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Posted by: Kraggy.4169

Kraggy.4169

HoT is nothing like the core or what Anet told us they envisioned for this game.

Great one-line summary of how HoT fails: as an expac it may be great for an Asian grind-fest like Lineage, it has no part in a game like GW2.

Your story of your friend is the most non-GW2 thing I’ve heard, EXPLORATION gated by a huge XP grind is soooooooooo not what GW2 was about till now.

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Posted by: Kraggy.4169

Kraggy.4169

when the entire core game is based around them in every single map

What original GW2 content was GATED by them?

Answer: none:

What HoT content is GATED by them?

Answer: most, you have to grind massive amounts of XP simply to unlock the Masteries you need to GET AROUND THE WORLD!

You can get to Orr at level 1 in GW2 if you can avoid dying.

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Posted by: ProtoGunner.4953

ProtoGunner.4953

I wouldn’t call it ‘grind’ for the first three important mastery points (gliding, mushroom jump and updraft). You get that after a couple of ours of just playing through the content and doing some events…

Yes, there are some hero points that are gated behind a rather higher tier of mastery levels. But then again: i started a necro without any world completion (38% I think) and now I’m half into reaper and I even barely touched map 3. I like the events and the scenery is beautiful, I don’t get what’s so hard. Do you see levelling as ‘grind’? Most don’t see mastery as kind of leveling, it’s really no big deal and those masteries are even account bound.

‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong

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Posted by: Kraggy.4169

Kraggy.4169

This just in

GW1 wasnt a mmo. Just like Diablo 2 and 3 arent mmos

When you have to resort to semantic games you clearly have lost the argument.

Fact is HoT bears little resemblance to GW2 in its core philosophy, and that only became apparent once all the pre-orders were in and the beta test was over, up until that point everything Anet said about HoT seemed to show it was related to GW2; it isn’t where core game mechanics are concerned.

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Posted by: Zanther Deathbringer.4762

Zanther Deathbringer.4762

When you have to resort to semantic games you clearly have lost the argument.

Except when the argument was started by someone else making the comparison.

Were you upset when World of Warcraft wasnt exactly like Warcraft 3?

Fact is HoT bears little resemblance to GW2 in its core philosophy, and that only became apparent once all the pre-orders were in and the beta test was over, up until that point everything Anet said about HoT seemed to show it was related to GW2; it isn’t where core game mechanics are concerned.

And what core philosophy is that? Leveling from 1 to 80? Having zones that are semi-gated by level? Having features gated by level?

So youre upset that they didnt increase the max level, and gate everything behind that instead? Where you could just spam all the tombs you’ve been saving to bypass that whole concept?

(edited by Zanther Deathbringer.4762)

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Posted by: Kraggy.4169

Kraggy.4169

And what core philosophy is that? Leveling from 1 to 80? Having zones that are semi-gated by level? Having features gated by level?

Features gated by the need to grind huge amounts of XP simply in order to progress through the story/zones.

1-80 had NO GRIND AT ALL in order to simply quest. You gained levels by completing the content in each zone, do that and you were ready for the next .. whereas in HoT you play for a short time then face a locked gate where you need to grind XP in order to unlock a Mastery simply to progress through the zone.

THAT is the philosophy that is entirely alien to GW2 1-80.

At no point in all the 1-80s I did (5, not as many as many folks but still …), they progressed without thinking, never had to repeatedly grind XP in order to do so, they gained sufficient XP simply questing.

HoT isn’t the same kind of play-style, it’s far more WOW than Blizzard are doing these days: and I have 10 100s in WOW to prove it! I doubt I’ll have more than one end-game HoT character, if that, HoT kills alts, that’s for sure.

[edit]

One more thing, 1-80 there is no group-or-GTFO content gating character progression, HoT adds that 1990s abomination in the form of unsoloable HP accumulation: character progress is now gated by forced-grouping for the first time in GW2.

(edited by Kraggy.4169)

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Posted by: Zanther Deathbringer.4762

Zanther Deathbringer.4762

Features gated by the need to grind huge amounts of XP simply in order to progress through the story/zones.

1-80 had NO GRIND AT ALL in order to simply quest. You gained levels by completing the content in each zone, do that and you were ready for the next .. whereas in HoT you play for a short time then face a locked gate where you need to grind XP in order to unlock a Mastery simply to progress through the zone.

So you essentially have to complete content in each HoT zone. You do that to gain your mastery in order to do the next.

Hmmm….. sounds identical to the 1-80 philosophy. The only difference being a mastery gate, instead of being impossible due to mob level gate.

At no point in all the 1-80s I did (5, not as many as many folks but still …), they progressed without thinking, never had to repeatedly grind XP in order to do so, they gained sufficient XP simply questing.

And thats different in HoT how? How is doing content for xp in the old world different than doing content now? Those big orange circles not big or bright enough for you? You need giant hearts to point locations on the map for you?

HoT isn’t the same kind of play-style, it’s far more WOW than Blizzard are doing these days: and I have 10 100s in WOW to prove it! I doubt I’ll have more than one end-game HoT character, if that, HoT kills alts, that’s for sure.

So you miss not having “kill 10 boars” over and over

You also missed the part where instead of “!” in the old world, we had hearts instead. Again, essentially the same.

got it

[edit]

One more thing, 1-80 there is no group-or-GTFO content gating character progression, HoT adds that 1990s abomination in the form of unsoloable HP accumulation: character progress is now gated by forced-grouping for the first time in GW2.

I’ve solo’d almost all my HP challenges btw. You must be one of those people that thinks this game is to hard,

(edited by Zanther Deathbringer.4762)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

What happened to this philosophy? Literally everything in HoT is gated behind a grind.

-Want to start your story? Grind mobs/events for gliders!
-Want to get that hero point up there? Grind some more for a mushroom mastery!
-Want that other hero point? LOL got ya! Grind some more glider mastery for updraft.
-Finally made it up there? It’s a champion on a timer! Better hope someone else nearby has grinded as much as you!

I think we have very different levels at which we consider something a grind.

The glider for example I got just from wandering around the starting area baffled. The mastery-gated things I think is kinda cool, adds value to the mastery as it unlocks new elements in older maps – I <3 MetroidVania games, if you can’t tell :P – and well, what else… hero points? There’s only 40 of them. That’s a short speedbump even if I sat down to get all of them in one go.

Mind you, I started a few years ago, in the high time of EQ1. Walking from Qeynos to Freeport for my class upgrades was a very long trip which needed escorting by other players from my guild to make it at all.

It’s a difference of perspective I guess. To me, GW2 feels insanely casual (but in a good way!) due to how easy and how quickly everything can be obtained. Yes, quickly.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: gaspara.4079

gaspara.4079

I greatly disagree with the sentiment in this thread. My wife and I had a blast this weekend exploring the jungle.

The experience required for the early, “required” masteries is minimal. And there is SO much to explore and do. The verticality and and layering makes getting from point A to point B an interesting and exciting experience as you attempt to figure out how to get there.

Saturday night we spent 30 minutes “lost” (more like exploring) in a cave in the 3rd map in which I often looked at the map and can confirm the entire 30 minutes took place in a football shaped area roughly 3% of the total area of the zone. It was awesome.

One thing I think more people need to do is to move on to the other maps once they have explored a fairly large chunk of Verdant Brink.The other maps are quite different and do not really require more than basic gliding and mushroom jumping. In fact I believe you can map it all the way to the 4th map without ever even needing gliding (though I haven’t tested this).

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Posted by: briggah.7910

briggah.7910

when the entire core game is based around them in every single map

What original GW2 content was GATED by them?

Answer: none:

What HoT content is GATED by them?

Answer: most, you have to grind massive amounts of XP simply to unlock the Masteries you need to GET AROUND THE WORLD!

You can get to Orr at level 1 in GW2 if you can avoid dying.

Thanks for answering questions that I didn’t even need answers too and didn’t even ask..

Point I was making was if you think doing events is grinding, You have been grinding since you started to play gw2. Seeing as to level up you run around maps and do events. People have been “grinding” silverwastes for months now have they not?

Would you have been happier if Anet raised the level cap past 80 and actually added a new tier of gear? Basically making all your current gear subpar to any of the new gear added. Also to get your new gear you actually had to do something over and over again for only a “chance” at a new piece of gear dropping.

Chance is the keyword there. If you quote me and say you are doing events over and over we will never see eye to eye and have a different definition of what grinding is..

Player Vs Everyone
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Posted by: DaniTheHero.6318

DaniTheHero.6318

Take this for what you will, but I just want to know when the old philosophy of “We don’t make grindy games” flew out the window.

A lot went flying through the window.

“We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”

And then HoT is basically a couple hours of new content hard gated by massive grind.

“Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.”

HoT is entirely about preparing to have fun by grinding before being able to use specializations.

When asked about GW2’s release date, the answer was, “When it’s ready”

Meanwhile, HoT got released with legendary weapons to be added “later”, the raid to be added “later”, the new squad system to be added “later”, and so on and so on.

ArenaNet turned around and shot most of what they claimed was their “basic design philosophy”.

IMO, that’s a sign of how much they deserve to be trusted.

This

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Posted by: SoulstitchMMO.1396

SoulstitchMMO.1396

when the entire core game is based around them in every single map

What original GW2 content was GATED by them?

Answer: none:

What HoT content is GATED by them?

Answer: most, you have to grind massive amounts of XP simply to unlock the Masteries you need to GET AROUND THE WORLD!

You can get to Orr at level 1 in GW2 if you can avoid dying.

Thanks for answering questions that I didn’t even need answers too and didn’t even ask..

Point I was making was if you think doing events is grinding, You have been grinding since you started to play gw2. Seeing as to level up you run around maps and do events. People have been “grinding” silverwastes for months now have they not?

Would you have been happier if Anet raised the level cap past 80 and actually added a new tier of gear? Basically making all your current gear subpar to any of the new gear added. Also to get your new gear you actually had to do something over and over again for only a “chance” at a new piece of gear dropping.

Chance is the keyword there. If you quote me and say you are doing events over and over we will never see eye to eye and have a different definition of what grinding is..

I’ve never been forced to pve in a specific order before today in GW2. I could run my Asuran over to Sylvari land, and do any events I wanted. I was not forced to complete my Asuran starting area, in a very specific order, making sure I am forced to do every event that pops up.

Everything about HoT is being forced into a very specific order you must do before you can progress. Gating Elite Specs behind a required Hero Point Grind that you get if you do every single piece of the HoT trash events to gain mastery in so many different areas? (you know how kittened I was when I glided down to that frog on the ledge only to be told I need to get some stupid mastery in order to even see what the hero challenge is?)

I won’t feel accomplished when I’m done HoT, It’s a grind before I can get my Elite and then I can start enjoying the game. I’ll just be glad it’s over, then I’ll be able to enjoy it if I’m still playing at that point.

This is extremely poor game design.

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Posted by: Zanther Deathbringer.4762

Zanther Deathbringer.4762

when the entire core game is based around them in every single map

What original GW2 content was GATED by them?

Answer: none:

What HoT content is GATED by them?

Answer: most, you have to grind massive amounts of XP simply to unlock the Masteries you need to GET AROUND THE WORLD!

You can get to Orr at level 1 in GW2 if you can avoid dying.

Thanks for answering questions that I didn’t even need answers too and didn’t even ask..

Point I was making was if you think doing events is grinding, You have been grinding since you started to play gw2. Seeing as to level up you run around maps and do events. People have been “grinding” silverwastes for months now have they not?

Would you have been happier if Anet raised the level cap past 80 and actually added a new tier of gear? Basically making all your current gear subpar to any of the new gear added. Also to get your new gear you actually had to do something over and over again for only a “chance” at a new piece of gear dropping.

Chance is the keyword there. If you quote me and say you are doing events over and over we will never see eye to eye and have a different definition of what grinding is..

I’ve never been forced to pve in a specific order before today in GW2. I could run my Asuran over to Sylvari land, and do any events I wanted. I was not forced to complete my Asuran starting area, in a very specific order, making sure I am forced to do every event that pops up.

Everything about HoT is being forced into a very specific order you must do before you can progress. Gating Elite Specs behind a required Hero Point Grind that you get if you do every single piece of the HoT trash events to gain mastery in so many different areas? (you know how kittened I was when I glided down to that frog on the ledge only to be told I need to get some stupid mastery in order to even see what the hero challenge is?)

I won’t feel accomplished when I’m done HoT, It’s a grind before I can get my Elite and then I can start enjoying the game. I’ll just be glad it’s over, then I’ll be able to enjoy it if I’m still playing at that point.

This is extremely poor game design.

So you hate progression and want instant gratification. You wanted everything unlocked the second you stepped foot in the new area, just so you could fly through it in a day, then complain for 3 more years that youre bored. Because god forbid you were force to spend 30 minutes to an hour unlocking gliding and mushroom bounce which allows you to progress through the zones collecting HP’s, much like you were in the old world collecting XP’s from hearts (which you seem to love so much)

Basically sums up your post.

(edited by Zanther Deathbringer.4762)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

So you hate progression and want instant gratification. You wanted everything unlocked the second you stepped foot in the new area, just so you could fly through it in a day, then complain for 3 more years that youre bored.

Maybe not him specifically.
But the forums have been swamped for 3 years now with people wanting progression and long term goals. Devs listened. Ofc now the opposite extreme of player is unhappy but such is the life of a MMO developer. :P

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Posted by: SoulstitchMMO.1396

SoulstitchMMO.1396

So you hate progression and want instant gratification. You wanted everything unlocked the second you stepped foot in the new area, just so you could fly through it in a day, then complain for 3 more years that youre bored. Because god forbid you were force to spend 30 minutes to an hour unlocking gliding and mushroom bounce which allows you to progress through the zones collecting HP’s, much like you were in the old world collecting XP’s from hearts (which you seem to love so much)

Basically sums up your post.

I love that’s where you went with that. You’re not getting the argument. As has been repeatedly stated by literally everyone. Nothing in GW2 has been been gated so specifically till now. You’ve always been able to just do whatever you wanted in GW2. I’ve rarely ever done pve. Rarely done pve events. I’ve done the personal story a couple times till completion and ran some dungeons, but most if not all of my time is in WvW or SPvP.

When I wanted to do something in pve, it was my choice. With this expansion, they locked the Elite Specs behind a massive Hero Point Grind that corresponds with the HC if you do all of them, then locked those behind gate, after gate, after gate, after gate.

I mean you could technically spend the next couple months grinding the 400 HP you need to get your elite unlocked in WvW itself, but that’s equally as ridiculous.

Could you imagine if they put the Elite spec behind a WvW wall instead of a PvE wall? I’m sure you’d be singing a different tune right now.

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Posted by: Zanther Deathbringer.4762

Zanther Deathbringer.4762

I love that’s where you went with that. You’re not getting the argument. As has been repeatedly stated by literally everyone. Nothing in GW2 has been been gated so specifically till now. You’ve always been able to just do whatever you wanted in GW2. I’ve rarely ever done pve. Rarely done pve events. I’ve done the personal story a couple times till completion and ran some dungeons, but most if not all of my time is in WvW or SPvP.

I’m pretty sure I could no nothing in orr at lvl 1. Because mob levels.

Good news though. You can still do WvW and spvp. Last I checked, neither of those were gated. spvp still has everything unlocked besides a few gold sinks!

When I wanted to do something in pve, it was my choice. With this expansion, they locked the Elite Specs behind a massive Hero Point Grind that corresponds with the HC if you do all of them, then locked those behind gate, after gate, after gate, after gate.

You mean the system which is essentially a new leveling system without them actually increasing the max level, as to not negate everything I did in the past 3 years?

Sounds like a genius system to me.

I mean you could technically spend the next couple months grinding the 400 HP you need to get your elite unlocked in WvW itself, but that’s equally as ridiculous.

Could you imagine if they put the Elite spec behind a WvW wall instead of a PvE wall? I’m sure you’d be singing a different tune right now.

Funny, because I finished my elite spec over the weekend exploring the new PvE zones.

You can also unlocked all your HP’s from WvW if you so choose. And WvW is actually my main attraction to the game. Its actually a lot quicker too. So I would be singing the same tunes as I am right now.

You can stop now.

(edited by Zanther Deathbringer.4762)

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Posted by: Zylonite.5913

Zylonite.5913

I think it’s they just don’t know what they’re doing as a company. They don’t know what’s MOST important in their values. Is it WvW? Ongoing events? Expansions? PVP? Story and world depth? Guilds? Character building? Community? They try to cover this lack of plan with new currencies, new systems, rewards like dailies and log-ins, etc… but it’s still a lack of a true solid plan and I still don’t know what kind of gameplay I’m supposed to “count on” from them.

In short, seems like they aimed to serve too many masters and the end result was it’s not really panning out, so add more grind to keep people playing a wee bit longer. To me though that seems like a cycle of diminishing returns.

Well said. As a MMO game studio, ANet seems to have no solid roadmaps.

First with the living story, then changes to PvP, new specializations, expansion, unnecessary changes to dungeons and fractals, too many changes to the trait and skill changes making things more complicated, etc….it seems ANet changes their decisions too much and I bet it’s due to the short financial outcome of everything that Anet does and doesn’t do…and possibly the pressure from the big boss and investors. It feels to me that ANet is constantly looking for a way to survive rather than a way to continue making MMOs…

Personally I think they should have stuck with the living story. The most fun I had in GW2 was during the Living Story Season one even though the content came under heavy criticism mostly by the elitist players who hated zergs. There was weekly challenges and events, the rewards were good, there was a decent amount of achievements, zerg and solo contents, etc….everybody was there doing the events and enjoying the game. Then the game took a big 180 degrees shift and the rewards got nerfed, the events started having timers, the community got separated, the zerg contents were not enjoyable anymore, etc…

A game studio that can’t stick to their decisions, right or wrong, will not survive. Changing the game too much from it’s core only causes more problems rather than improve anything. What I’d give to go back and play GW2 4-6 months after it’s launch?

GW2 used to be an awesome MMO, but now its just a shortcut sitting my on desktop waiting to be moved to the trashcan…

Betrayed by the gods of ANet

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Posted by: Chicho Gosho.6507

Chicho Gosho.6507

I love that’s where you went with that. You’re not getting the argument. As has been repeatedly stated by literally everyone. Nothing in GW2 has been been gated so specifically till now. You’ve always been able to just do whatever you wanted in GW2. I’ve rarely ever done pve. Rarely done pve events. I’ve done the personal story a couple times till completion and ran some dungeons, but most if not all of my time is in WvW or SPvP.

When I wanted to do something in pve, it was my choice. With this expansion, they locked the Elite Specs behind a massive Hero Point Grind that corresponds with the HC if you do all of them, then locked those behind gate, after gate, after gate, after gate.

I mean you could technically spend the next couple months grinding the 400 HP you need to get your elite unlocked in WvW itself, but that’s equally as ridiculous.

Could you imagine if they put the Elite spec behind a WvW wall instead of a PvE wall? I’m sure you’d be singing a different tune right now.

If you have the Tyria hero points and the first 3 masteries you can get your elite spec in couple of hours. You are OVER OVER exaggerating. Also you are probably forgetting( or havent played the first ~2 years) about Skill points/Trait Points if you’re saying “Nothing in GW2 has been been gated so specifically till now.”