Guild Wars 2

Recently, I’ve been seeing many people discussing why they like/dislike the end-game in GW2. Now, I’m not going to state whether I personally like it or don’t like it… because then this thread will probably get merged with the pointless " why GW2 will not last" – that type of crazy talk. Rather, here’s a few points on an MMORPG End-Game as a healthy – fruits for thought read:

1) Developers can’t make contents go on forever. For all PVE contents in MMOs, it’s a journey that has a start or an end. Except, the ending is usually a “close loop” that gets players sticking around to doing the same thing while they get time to update more contents. But just remember that each time they do update a content, " the end of it is always going to be a loop".

2) There’s many ways to create an end-game loop, but pretty much all end-game loops “extend the game without having to constantly create new contents”; tpyicall it’s about running in a circle (like in WoW’s Gear Grind system), but that’s not GW2’s endgame lady’s and gentlemen.

There are two types of end-game loop (for any game really); the first kind is where a player plays through all the contents, and gets “extremely slowed down 1m before the finish line” (ie. GW2’s Endgame):

End-Game Loop #1

(100% New Contents) ->-————->(50% New Contents) —-————>(1% New Content)————[Major Slow Down]—————>(No New Contents)

Slow-Down: For everyone it’s different. It’s whatever goal you have which is prolonging the game for yourself… like “oh, I want 100% map completion” or “grinding dungeons for legendary items”. For some it works that they have to spend more times after seeing everything the game has to offer to keep going for themselves, for others they think it’s pointless because once you got it… you got it & it doesn’t move the game along (and no… by then they will have added more content for sure. They know when 50%+ people have run out of contents to play with, they’re engineers and marketers -> the master combo for this “end-game”).

3) PVP and WvWvW is the 2nd type of end-game loop. Again, it’s similar to a Slow-Down where players except that you get through the “content process” much more quicker, because what keeps players around are essentially the “mechanics”.

End-Game Loop #2

(100% New Content) —-—-> (Quickly to close to "No More New Contents) —-—> (Looping Around Basic Mechanics).

Basic Fun Mechanics: This include whatever a typical gamer enjoys doing “repetitively”. This is the ‘bread and butter’ of how RTS & FPS games keep themselves alive; they don’t have to constantly add new contents, instead they just have to have mechanics which the “majority of players” like. This is very tough for MMOs to accomplish, and so IMO Anet did not base their PVE on this because… relatively speaking in terms of “game meta design”; it is much much MUCH less of a deal-breaker to go with the traditional “Slow-Down” Loop where most MMO players are use to, rather than trying something that will more likely to create division between the community more likely than not.

TL;DR – Here’s the points I want to make:

1) GW2 Endgame is a modified “Slow-Down” Loop from WoW, except they modified the gears so that it seems like “you’re doing this purely for fun and not to show off that you are superior”.

2) GW2 Endgame player debates has occurred because not all players buy into – “the point” of the modified version to gear grinding (refer back to Point #1 if needed).

3) My personal analysis on GW2’s Endgame issue is that the biggest decision they made which cause their end-game contents to be questioned, is due to the fact that their overall gameplay experience did not exceed much more than ‘mediocre’, thus when you want to put say GW2 is the best game in the history of MMOs… you can’t because they are way too many bugs in the game that is IMo unacceptable for a type of game released after a month. It’s the built up of little frustrations which is IMo they source of why GW2 haters hate.

GW2 doesn’t have endgame. It just has game. You don’t level one way and then play another way at the level cap. You just play it. People overthink this.

good read, +1

i know im in the very odd minority but i am literally taking my sweet time with this game, ive had it since day 2 , and i still dont have a toon higher than 60 , coming up on 12 pvp rank, about 4 proffesions oat the 250ish range , done pretty much every jumping puzzle i can do for my level range of toons, and im just slowly learning and playing randomly between all my five toons, though i admit i sort of “restarted” because halfway thru fifty on my necro i realized they just still have a ton of bugs and minion ai is plain kitten so i started a mesmer, wich i pvp a lot with …

anyways..im rambling here, the point is , that even though im probably in the minority , if you take your sweet time with it and jsut forget that there is a level cap(as in dont even care about your level or reaching level cap at all, you reach it when you reach it) you have a lot of fun and dont run into the “closed loop” that the op speaks of, however, there is PLENTY to do on this game, jsut isnt everyones cup of tea, mainly the “content locust” type of player that has by now cleared all dungeon paths and done 100 percent map , there is no higher “gear plateau” for them , so in their eyes , there is no “Endgame” , wich is imho , the biggest part of the issue

From playing and reading the forums this is what I got from it. Most complains, and my thoughts on them I will be quick about this.

You play there game the way they want you to.( I agree, Have you been here from the beginning?)
There mistakes are your fault. (Karma weapons price fails, Karma crafting exchange fail. Very true saw many people hit this wall got Perma bann, which then turn into a temp bann- this right here turn a lot of people away from playing this game any further. Also turn a lot of people from ever buying another Anet game.)
Dungeons are there endgame. Dungeons are to easy but to boring, Dungeons are to hard and boring. There is nothing to do in this game anymore.(which there isnt. I’m on the the side: Dungeons are to easy and dumb also boring. )

PvP in this game is not fun at all.(I agree ) WvW is fun to a point.(yeps yeps)

Random people in the community: ‘this is not a game like WoW you dont grind for more gear, there is no gear treadmill, This is the game go away if you dont like it.’
(Gear grinding is, and could be fun for this game. A lot of people play like this and love to play like this. Therefore they will gladly leave and you will care because when a lot starts to leave it will get a lot more boring than it already is.)

Im just frustrated in the direction AreanaNet took with this game. Also most complains are very true. It seems Anet does not care very much. (Which I believe they don’t, they got your money your not paying a monthly subscription)

The problem is that the argument of
“the entire game is endgame” simply isnt true. Not to mention this little number “we didnt want grind”

I’m level 80. I’m a dungeon master, and I found a lot of the dungeon paths to be NOT FUN. Bad design, boring bosses, too much trash hp, few and far good things.
So I went and did map completion. And that was… ok. The first time round. But now i’ve been there done that.

So I look at my choices which are currently
1. do PvP
2. Get a legendary
Now assuming im not a PvP fanatic my only other choice is farming, and farming, and farming and farming. In Cursed shore. Why cursed shore? because NO other zone has drops on that level. The only issue? Orr is a big bag of… felines. Talk to most players, they dont have fun in Orr. No one is there to have fun. They’re there to farm stuff. To grind.

The problem with “entire game is endgame” is that there’s very little reason for players to ever backtrack. Or even to help friends (Indeed we are dis-advantaged if we do so due to waypoint costs, and drops not always scaling [and never scaling to the same level of Orr] )

Once youve hit 80 and have dungeon master + been there done that you’ve pretty much finished the game.

Now, thats not to say I havent dumped a lot of time and gotten my moneys worth. But the excuses “everything is endgame” doesnt really hold up for a lot of players. Out of all of my friends and guildies (who all play 5+ hours a day) only 2 of us enjoyed dungeons on some level and none of us thought of map completion as anything besides carto and vanquisher V2.

@Zenyatoo
The “everything is endgame” saying has more to do that the levelling process is endgame, as well, not that you’re supposed to hang out in centaur areas you’ve already finished. Which is of course possible and even encouraged as well, but I think ANet realises that there is no long-term draw there.

For the rest of your post, you’re basically saying nothing. Or that the sky is blue. No game has infinite content. Level an alt. Close the client. Wait for content updates.

The reason GW2 stands out is -because- it’s not another treadmill party.
@80 there is a lot to do that is yet not required to be “on par” with others.
You get your exotics 10 hours after 80 and then it’s all about what you want.

You may not realize it but there are a few millions of gamers who aren’t gullible and know that “endgame” does not exist in any game.
Some games just keep you running in circles, farming the same content for gear to milk money out of you, that way by nolifing in dungeons you outgear people, kill them, and feel you are better than them.
This is not an “endgame”, it’s a mind chain to keep you from noticing the game is long over and you’re repeating the same content like a zombie.

GW2 caters to people who are tired of running in circles – complaints are from people who expected another traditional MMO regardless if Anet yelled the opposite for months.

Would be cool if Anet offered a free WoW trial month to people who aren’t happy with GW2.
Like “Don’t like chess? Don’t worry here is your tic-tac-toe”.

Lower level zones rewards for lv80 characters could be better to give people motives to travel different places rather than visiting for 100% map/world completion.

If you were surprised that people are complaining, then this must be your first MMO. People are always kittening about anything on the forums.
Sometimes you just don’t like something. With MMO’s people seem to be a bit more vocal / whiny about what they don’t like.
Everyone has their own concerns about the game. Some create constructive posts that address the issue, some just complain for the complaining.

IMO, People just haven’t got onto how this games is vastly different from other MMO’s. It’s never been about the rush to hit max level and sit and wait for the next content patch. It’s about getting out and being part of of the game and the community.
It’s about having fun in WvWvW. It’s running DE’s and keeping the world safe (in a story point of view)
I have yet to see anyone post a picture where they have every achievement and show that they have found every single hidden thing that is in the game and until I do…so in my book they have nothing to complain about.

“Developers can’t make contents go on forever.”

If that’s true at all it’s true only for RPGs.

People play fps/tactical shooters (essentially a form of PvP) on the same maps for years on end, apparently because the gameplay is interesting enough.

“You don’t level one way and then play another way at the level cap.”

Except that during leveling up, grouping is virtually a non-issue; you just run into groups of people all the time because it’s easy to get around in the zones. Also much of the content is soloable.
In Orr otoh you don’t get very far without a group -and- you don’t just run into groups all the time because those zones are hard to get around in. GW2’s PvE difficulty curve goes up rather steeply near max level (and i don’t even mean dungeons).

Regardless of whether the people who complain about endgame and other issues are seeing it wrong, they still leave the game, and it’s a fairly large number of people who do that.

I think Straits of Devastation is a good example of what this results in: most of the time most waypoints are contested, and Pact reinforcement/expedition events can be found downed in the same spot for several days in a row – and that’s in a weekend, when one would expect enough players to be logged in.

Just imagine how many people would not have left a month after release if the game would not have the large number of bugs, gameplay issues and various annoyances (ie fov, camera angle) that it has.

90% (approx) of the complaints I’ve read on this forum abput the game can be distilled into one sentence.
“The game isn’t like WoW’.
Most of the other 10% are unrealistic expectations that the game is going to be as smooth running and issue free as games that have had several years development.

And as for this comment
“Just imagine how many people would not have left a month after release if the game would not have the large number of bugs, gameplay issues and various annoyances”
It could be applied to just about any MMO a few months after launch

What the haters complain about in this game, what they say is lacking, are the things that made me pick GW2.

I also have no clue why people didnt do some research before they picked up a copy. Its not like its news that GW2 wouldnt be another run of the mill gorilla clone, it was stated long ago. You also need to look at it from another perspective, the game is designed around PvP, while most every other game has PvP as a side dish that just doesnt taste very good (except for SWToR warzones, amazing fun).

Here the game is designed with PvP in mind all the time, so mechanics in PvE are similar to those in PvP. Like using dodge and such. Also, since the game is designed from a PvP perspective that is going to be 100% even the best gear will be obtainable for everyone through different means. The dungeon gear is just there for people who like PvE and some of the skins, not so you can run out and faceroll in WvW.

Also picking up this game and not liking PvP one bit is not a very great idea. Its been stated over and over and over that this game is heavily designed around PvP.

Show me where Anet said people who don’t like PvP should better not buy GW2.

The reasons for the complaints are valid. Dungeons are NOT fun compared to other MMOs OF you’ve actually played other MMOs. You can’t say with a straight face they’re better designed in GW2 because it’s simply not true. The bosses are terrible, flat out and every one has the same strategy, due to the lack of aggro an healing mechanics.

People can complain because casuals are getting to max lvl in a month. In MMO terms that is waaaaaay too fast. Sorry, but the answer is NOT go play alts. That’s a cop out.

Orr is badly designed. No one looooves Orr.

Lvl scaling is only good for playing with friends without trivializing everything, but the reward structure is crushing. Let’s be honest once you have a rare set, low levels are a cakewalk anyhow.

All the loading screens are very annoying. No reason to see them at all when transporting in the same zone. That’s bad code, sorry.

No inspect feature.

Camera has problems especially near walls, making jumping puzzles and vistas terribl
Y annoying at times.

Traits for certain classes should be working correctly by now. We’re not talking balance. We’re talking simply not functioning at all. Other MMOs did not have these sorts of problems, sorry.

pvp can be fun but not for everyone. 1 mode of play is lame. Doesnt matter what other games had at release. WAR had more batlegrounds. It took WOW a couple of months to come up with theirs, but it almost is a couple of months now. WvW can be a lot more fun. The draw in problems are inexcusable, sorry. WAR didn’t have this problem. WOW certainly didn’t and displayed a lot more players at once.

When comparing to WOW people certainly can complain, because WOW simply does some things better. Sorry, but it’s true and it’s not about it being out for a while either. Basic group features are missing here. If you don’t know what they are you haven’t played WOW or some other MMOs for that matter.

Anet should’ve learned from other MMOs but instead made the same mistakes or even worse ones. Again you have to have lots of experience with other MMOs to see the faults. And they ARE faults.

Sure you can disagree, but you can also be honest. I like the game. I’m not blind. When games are missing features they should have, that’s a problem.

@Josher
Unfreeze your wow account then, problem solved.

As many stated in this thread, those some of you mention as “lacks” are actually the reason people love this game.
It’s purposely like this, we want it like this.
GW2 will never be like WoW because we not want another WoW clone.
GW2 was sold as something completely different than the traditional MMO based on grinding, inspect, stealing, tank gimmicks, etc.

My advice is to read the box before you buy a product.
You’re basically complaining your new stereo does not make coffee.

@RedFalcon
All you had to do was Copy/Paste your sig…sums it up pretty well IMO

My thoughts and contribution to this thread

• I don’t agree that legendary’s are intended to be grinded for. I think the distance you see between the exotics and legendarys was done in part to help weed out the type of player who has a linear play mentality “must meet next objective quickly”. The game has its share of that, but if you are only signing into GW2 at max level so you can grind for weeks, months, whatever to get that legendary weapon skin well, that’s really really sad. I believe Legendary’s are intended to be earned without grind over a long period. Their expectation was that people would simply enjoy continuing to play the game over time would eventually earn Legendary’s. They did not account for two things A.) A lot of people don’t consider GW2 really that much fun on replay, not yet anyway I have hope! B.) Some of their systems are counter to their design philosophy. For example, they expect you to take you level 80 and play with others at much lower levels but way point cost impose a sort of tax on you for doing this often.

• Dungeons explore mode and WvW are the things you do after you’ve finished the game. ArenaNet has admitted both of these things have some real cracks and need work. The problems with dungeons are around loot, balance, etc.. WvW continues to see speed hackers stealing Orbs. It suffers from design issues. New players enter WvW and it’s unclear what to do. Go defend keep, go capture keep. WvW is a never ending loop and you have ad-hoc players just coming in for the first time and you have other team who do nothing but WvW trying to approach it in a very structured way. It’s a giant cluster-kitten. It’s a mess. So it’s difficult for me to judge ArenaNet’s intent for endgame when the dungeons and WvW still feel like beta.

• Even GW1 had more endgame though hard mode. You had less dungeons in GW1 but a monolithic story arch composed of primary quest and cooperative missions. The missions were the primary story delivery vehicle and this content was repeatable in a hard mode environment. This combined with yearly campaign releases provided years of endgame play for fans. GW2 does not have anything like this. My optimistic side takes the stance of Surely ArenaNet knows what they have delivered so far is not enough and is working on improving this my pessimistic side says They should have known all of this from their expereince with GW1. They released the game with only core features done and a lot of those even buggy to meet a date on a calendar set by NCSoft. I imagine the truth is somewhere in between. I love this game and will continue to wait.

• ArenaNet’s design philosophy for endgame is heavily rooted in their belief that level scaling works. That is a level 80 can go back to an entry level zone and still be challenged and well rewarded…. Level scaling seems to work ok the problem is it’s not a real replacement for hardmode because it doesn’t challenge a player beyond max level. Also the loot you get is not that great.

TL;DR: Regardless if you are in support of WoW type raids being added to GW2, the game certainly does need some additions in this category for long term success.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

… * ArenaNet’s design philosophy for endgame is heavily rooted in their belief that level scaling works. That is a level 80 can go back to an entry level zone and still be challenged and well rewarded…. Level scaling seems to work ok the problem is it’s not a real replacement for hardmode because it doesn’t challenge a player beyond max level. Also the loot you get is not that great. …

This design philosophy would work if, in addition to scaling loot to your real level (which already happens now), karma and xp rewards also scaled to your real level.
If level 80 characters were getting 17,780 xp, 378 karma, and 1s86c for doing any event in any area, all the content would be PvE “end game”.
Until then, it’s a half-implemented design philosophy.

Note: 17,780 XP, 378 Karma, and 1s86c is the current max PvE Dynamic Event reward (from Cursed shore Penitent area) for a level 80.

I do love the people who complain about “Playing the way they want you to”.

Which happens in every game. Wohoo.

Also the karma bug made people leave? Good. Less morons who say “Oh well obviously this can’t be a bug if they put it in there and there are no other items that are priced like this. Not only am I going to buy one cause it’s cool (which people didn’t get punished for), but I’m gonna buy as many as I can and completely ruin the economy for my own gain and then not report this obvious bug. Du-Hoy.”

I dunno. As for End-game, I’m on character 2. Once I go for character 3 that’s even more time, and there’s so much to explore. I like just walking around and seeing the sights. I’ve joined a guild. I’ve done lots of meta-events, jumping puzzles, etc.

Ya, GW2 is lacking the traditional gear monkey endgame. Well… it’s not a gear monkey game, so did anyone expect any differently?

I mean, hell, in GW1 you played at level 20 for most of the game.

And as for the karma awards thing… you get pretty close to that depending on how hard the event is. I can clear Queensdale events in a heartbeat versus Orr events. They do scale up rewards, but if they scaled it up to the difficulty of the area and event.

I think people didn’t realize they meant endgame as in the game literally changes at the end. For instance in Everquest/WoW/“X” you go from 1 -> max doing group missions/solo play. Then at max you hit the raid scene which is anywhere from 10 -> 54 players in a raid depending on the game. Nowhere else other than max level does this happen.

GW2 went a different route. Basically level 30 is the “endgame” essentially (where the first dungeon starts and you get your first elite). Everything else afterwards is just adding to variety but the core game doesn’t change from 30 -> 80. So in essence, yes at level 30+ the entire game is “endgame” because they don’t drastically change your gameplay to something new.

Personally I like it. It is different. If I want to play a raid game I can pop on my 95 warrior or resub to WoW, but there is only one place where I can play dungeons similar to these. I am also a big fan of being able to group with lower levels for explorable missions (and often do).

Dead.7385:

… there is only one place where I can play dungeons similar to these. …

LOTRO, DDO, WAR, EQ2, and RIFT all have instanced dungeons, just like GW2.

vjek.4270:

Dead.7385:

… there is only one place where I can play dungeons similar to these. …

LOTRO, DDO, WAR, EQ2, and RIFT all have instanced dungeons, just like GW2.

Just because they are “instanced” doesn’t mean they are the same….

*edit: Even DDO’s elite difficulty dungeons are far far different from your average EQ2 dungeon (got around level 75 warden/inquitor which I dual boxed on Freeport server). Since they restrict you on mana so heavily, played a healer on DDO till about 12 or 14) it was actually quite fun vs med breaks in EQ2. Only did free trail of RIFT to 20 and did some faerie dungeon. Kinda WoWish. LOTRO tried to get into, but had everquest on my mind. War? No thanks unless it is 40K.

For example if I played a tank in those games I would be….. Tanking mobs of course. Keeping agro off of healers and allowing DPS at attack. That is the basic of most of those fights.

Here I can’t just “keep agro” off eveyone with my warrior easily. There isn’t a healer pumping me with HP every 3 seconds or so.

Corian.4068:

GW2 doesn’t have endgame. It just has game. You don’t level one way and then play another way at the level cap. You just play it. People overthink this.

There is endgame. You do dungeons and PvP for exotics and legendary. I don’t understand why people think that there is no endgame. There is stuff to do at 80, other than make alts.

After reading various forums ,It seems the players loved the game ,but after reaching level 80 they felt there was no obvious challenge or further fun things to do so they simply returned to other games with well defined goals .

I think this title could be called an adventure ,since there is no real challenge that numbers cannot overcome while levelling ,which games should have to give you the feeling of accomplishment .

We all like to feel rewarded for our efforts no matter how virtual they are ,in my opinion this game would be great with at least something of value as a reward for overcoming a challenge ,currently I know I feel deflated after overcoming any encounter only to recieve a small amount of currency and some random items that you rarely would equip at 80 so once you experience these a couple times your basically done .

Well i dont care much i do mostly pvp , and rather some pve when i can.

And i wil never say Gw2 is the best game, cause i will lie, also Gw2 did not destroy the trinity of dp,heal,tank.

Real pvper come from a old game Ultima Online where there you have to survie all the day, as i say UO Was the first father of all mmorpg and the best game ever created.

I think i will never see something new in a mmorpg.

Here the free transfer had destroyed all wvw servers mostly and the price of gems that is total abnormal sucks a lot.

Also Arenanet never did something with the people who exploits a lot having actually tons of golds and lot of precursors.

But well people like that who exploit are just noobs.
Anyway i only play cause of my guildmates and friend. otherwise i alredy quit game.

“This is not an “endgame”, it’s a mind chain to keep you from noticing the game is long over and you’re repeating the same content like a zombie.”

“You’re basically complaining your new stereo does not make coffee.”

This basically sums it up.

To me GW2 is a huge mess of conflicting ideas. They want you to go back to explore lower level zones with the scaling feature (which is cool), but waypoint costs, xp, gold/karma rewards do not scale. I feel like this game would be a lot better if the level cap was 20 like in GW1 and the majority of the zones were level 20.

@Tumbero,

First and second sentence i agree.

Third sentence is bit old now and is not accurate at all UO had no realm vs realm games idea came mostly comes from DAOC and i even see some ideas from Darkfall and not from UO at all. My best by far is Asheron’s call 1 btw, but im still not comparing them with GW2 it make no sense compare games from more then decade ago with game from 2012.
Free transfer is DISASTER and destroyed mainly WvW. Price for gems i dont realy care.

This is my biggest issue also with exploiters/cheaters arenanet did not enough bah:(

Im only playing becouse no monthly fee ive after all already bought the game its installed on my PC so i can play if i like or not no cost anymore.

If i spent any money again on game or any product from arenanet not if it stays like this im affraid future will tell.

Game world looks great races specially sylvari looks also great i like combat but to many things in my view are fail:(

Will see what future bring us with GW2?

This is why I have great faith in Anet. They DO listen to the complaints and concerns of players. While the game may be far from perfect I’d be willing to bet that over time the game will improve in ways that most people can’t even begin to think of at the moment. That is not to say that they will just listen to one majority or minority or whatever and adjust to every players’ whim. They will take everything into consideration and follow what they believe is best for the game. There are tons of things in this game I don’t like, but I believe the good far exceeds the bad, and I believe that things can only get better. The only thing we as players must do is have some patience with things.

Red falcon said…

@Josher
Unfreeze your wow account then, problem solved.
As many stated in this thread, those some of you mention as “lacks” are actually the reason people love this game.
It’s purposely like this, we want it like this.
GW2 will never be like WoW because we not want another WoW clone.
GW2 was sold as something completely different than the traditional MMO based on grinding, inspect, stealing, tank gimmicks, etc.
My advice is to read the box before you buy a product.
You’re basically complaining your new stereo does not make coffee.
GW2 is not your cookie-cutter, child-proof, spoon-feeding, EZ-mode, UI-based, passive-combat,
hand-helding, back-patting, gimmicky MMO.

I’m done with wow buddy and it seems my time with gw2 is approaching as well. The guild I’m in has also drastically reduced in active players, so do the math kiddo. I played wow for a while..it’s approaching 2 months and there’s nothing left to do in this.

And your sig, I can apply most of it to GW as well..cookie cutter, hehe. That’s all GW2 is. I really like the game, but being a blind fanboy is just juvenile. Don’t worry, lots of people will leave the game you love and you can play it alone. Have fun, hehe. And by the way, ANET said no grind, but the grind is almost more extreme than any WOW ever had. I also didn’t have to read the box…I played in early beta so I knew what was up. ANET just didn’t deliver on the features because there is plenty that’s not working as intended, unless you consider broken game mechanics, broken DEs, working. I don’t.

Go back to WOW is quite a lame retort to any objective criticism of the game. Sad.

Overunity.4273:

After reading various forums ,It seems the players loved the game ,but after reaching level 80 they felt there was no obvious challenge or further fun things to do so they simply returned to other games with well defined goals .

I started playing on August 25th at midnight. I’m in three guilds. In two of those there were around 100 players by August 28th. One of them hovers around 15 players in peek hours, the other around 8. It was the same pattern in both over the month and a half the game has been out, first three weeks the level 80s piled up. They finished personal story and defeated Zhitan and got bored so they are off doing other things until more content comes in. Many feel there are just better games to play that aren’t so bugged that can challenge a player at endgame.

Are some of you new to online games? Every MMO game forum is full of negativity. Even the one at the top of the food chain. If a new player read the panda forums one would think not a single person plays that other game.

Your best bet is to stay away from those threads and take them with a grain of salt.
Long as you are having fun in game…

If I can be honest in my post, a game that lack consideration of end-game or just tell us that “Lv1 is an end-game” will never be consider an MMO at all. >_<

MMO = A constant world where players play and compete with massive amount of people. It’s a multi-player game afterall. MMO is not only about the game evolving. Players must evolve through it too. A multi-player game is where people play and compete with each other. If there’s no end-game for players to compete, players lose motivations.

End-game mmos are like sports.
Atheletics feel motivated to train is because they want to surpass their competitors. It’s the same for mmo. They yearn to play more because they want to be better than average end-game players. That’s why they have gear grindings and guild/faction wars in end-game. The more they play, the more they’re rewarded to be better than average level-capped player. Gw2 structure is designed in a different way. No matter how much we play in end-game, it’s fruitless because our character will be the same as those level-cap players who stop playing. They can’t avoid human nature.

There’s a solution for this.
- Create a competiting end-game especially for end-game players only. An end-game where players can compete and compare with each other. SPvP and WvW is not end-game since any levels can touch it with equal fairness in combat. Costumes brawl (dungeon + legendary eqs) isn’t a solid attempt. It’s because any mmo end-game raid eqs have nice appearance on top of their better stats. Invent something different since gw2 is designed in a different way. Something that allows end-game players to compete. Something that make players feel special for playing more than average players.

I love this game, which is why I’m still hoping for the improvements.

“End-game mmos are like sports.
Atheletics feel motivated to train is because they want to surpass their competitors. It’s the same for mmo.”

I understand what you’re saying but the skillcap in sports is much, much higher. Professional athletes must exercise at least six hours per day, and even a half an hour of that would be too much for the average person. This includes running long distances fast, weight lifting, agility training, etc., to raise these IRL stats (or at the top level maintain them since the law of diminishing returns kicks in).

This is a game, it’s meant to be fun (yet somehow feels more like a second job with the resource and quest grinding).

You guys are forgetting something. Guild Wars 1 we hit 20 and then through 3 expansions we were fine with it. Hell, even with just prophecies running oro years ago was interesting and fun because everyone wanted green weapons when they came out. Dungeons in Guild Wars 2 are like 80% difficulty, 10% skill, 10% gimmick. It was completely the opposite before.

Also, yes, we have gear progression, but blues and greens are so easy to obtain they might as well not exist, rares are just as easy to get. I had a full set of gold armor/weapons/jewels for 80 before I even hit 80. The value of having no subscription is not having to rush everything, but when Anet basically throws everything at us and there’s not much to work for outside of praying to all that is holy for badge drops in wvw or doing irritating dungeons, the game hits a wall.

Now, like Guild Wars 1, I will take a break and come back every few months. The game is good, the combat is great, but it just doesn’t feel the same. Guild Wars 1 felt much more epic. I would go as far as to say a lot of the script in the story needs to be rewritten and slowed down.

I thought it was kind of obnoxious that we joined(who joined) the vigil and near after all of a sudden we’re a commander, where was the ranking up, where was the progression in the order? We go from trainee kitten boy to commander and all of a sudden people respect us? Same goes for the whole save the village crap in the first 15-20 levels. The story seems rushed. How can we go from a normal person, to a savior of a village just by stepping outside and killing off a few centaurs, which let’s be honest could have been done without us. There’s more… but I’ll stop there.

Also, INVISIBLE ARMIES. The only thing I have wanted to do for weeks, wvw, is a LOT less fun when I can’t see people running around.

I love how people are now redefining MMO so they can come up with an excuse to say the game must have Endgame. Sorry but I have a life. I have a job, bills, ect. Never in my mind when I say “You know what. I want to grind, and do the same content repeatedly at the end of my game for months on end.” Yet people are complaining that you can’t do that. It is pathetic to see this is what people complain about not seeing in an MMO. Nobody complains about Skyrim, or any other single player or multiplayer game not having endgame. It is an excuse. Nothing more. WoWbies came up with this nonsense as an excuse to say the game was fun. But contained 95% useless content until the endgame, and people justified that. The MMO genre as a whole is dying because of this philosophy.

Why do people even farm legendary it is worthless. Same stats as a Dungeon weapon COF/Arah. It looks like crap like most of the other things in this game. Do people really not have a life they find it that fun to farm for nothing? Haha. Pvp is a joke.

@Agemnon, yup. Every games should be fun. We should know that single-player and multi-player games are different in nature. Single-player are played short-term that can be switched with many games once each ended. Mmo are played long-term that players dedicate into a single game. Imo, multi-player games are fun because we play and compete with friends and players. Multi-player games are fun because it constantly allow players to evolve [to keep them attach to one mmo]. It’s fun to compare and having desire to be better than another. It’s also fun to group up in a guild and attend faction wars together with the the character we placed many efforts to build. Multi-player games are not fun when there’re no winners or losers. Multi-player games are meant to have winners and losers. It’s not a multi-player game if no one win or loses [fruitless progression]. It’ll be the same as single-player game because there’s no winners or losers but just for the leisure.

Sports are fun too. I don’t think there’s anyone who play sports and physical game activities without the desire to have fun. It’s also fun to have desire of climbing higher than individual’s limits. Those are the ones that give good memories. I feel it’s important for mmos to give this feel. Therefore, end-game is quite important in every mmo.

Colorox Sour.5142 said Now, like Guild Wars 1, I will take a break and come back every few months. The game is good, the combat is great, but it just doesn’t feel the same. Guild Wars 1 felt much more epic. I would go as far as to say a lot of the script in the story needs to be rewritten and slowed down.

Warning mild-spoilers ahead

GW1 like all great books had a monolithic story. From start to end you were moving forward through a single story arch. The result was the story lasted long enough that you cared when players died and when you got to the end of each campaign you cared a great deal. _Killing Shiro was much more rewarding than killing Zhitan, the fight was more challenging and when I killed him I actually cared. With Zhitan it didn’t really matter… Here’s the main baddie flying over and my personal story (completed all chapters leading up to him) has left me not giving a rats-kitten what happens. I’m enjoying it purely for the visuals. GW2 is not as challenging of a game. The final battle with Zhitan is a testament to this. Play it through several times and come back and tell me it’s amazing. It’s not. Where is the challenge? Where is the strategy? Without these things it’s just a visual show really. How is this considered a success?

GW2 progresses along multiple story archs. It’s like a collection of ho-hum short stories about the same character you based in the same setting. I don’t think this was a bad idea, but the way it was implemented fails. Several characters die in GW2 and I could care less about them due to having not experienced much with them. 3-4 story chapters and I’m suppose to care that my mentor is dead? No. Did anyone QA this game with a critical eye towards story or flow? It’s obvious they did not -or- perhaps the writers had too much political clout inside ANet to be disputed. Bottom line in GW1 and well, in many games I did care a great deal when characters passed on just like reading a good novel. In GW2 I didn’t and I would say this is a failure on the writing team. I’m not the only one who feels the story is weak.

It really does come down to some pretty bad writing in GW2. The story is very shallow compared to the first. The first held up with Dragon Age or Elder Scrolls. This one is incredibly weak compared to modern games.

They need better, dare I say professional writers.

It’s interesting how some people say that it is the same between lvl 1-79 and lvl 80 cuz… that isn’t how I personally feel.

The one major difference is in the aspects of Dungeons:

[Lvl 1-79]:
A player gets 50%+ EXP, descent amount of silver (gains profit), gears that they could possibly use or sell, and most important; have excitment of running through dungeons for the first time.

[Lvl 80]:
Eventually at somepoint, you would have seen all the dungeons (I have seen 80% of the dungeons each 2-3 times now, so for me it no longer is “that exciting” to do even a new path in the EXP dungeon).

The point of gaining EXP is to gain excess skill points in which you can spent on items (probably legendary items or stuffs for the guild). You also get tokens which you can spent on Legendary items.

So basically, even if you say “well, that’s not why I do dungeons”, the rewards of dungeons at lvl 80 is very clear; it’s to get legendary items. And remember, you can’t get legendary item until you hit lvl 80. So for me personally, the goals for doing dungeons during lvl 1-79 and at lvl 80 are two different things (at lvl 1-79 you have many different rewards that makes you excited about dungeons, but at lvl 80 it comes down to doing ti for legendary item or wanting to tryout new EXP paths… which for some people would be enough, but for others like me who doesn’t like either one of the reasons, we simply doze off from being a hardcore dungeon runner to a somewhat casual player, which if you want a RL ex. ; 4 friends of mine bought GW2 about a week after it first came out, was very excited playing it everyday from lvl 1-80. But now it’s two weeks since they’ve hit lvl 80, and… I ‘ve noticed that they’ve all become like me – playing more on an occasional bases than on an everyday bases).

Playing casually does not mean the game is dying ; casual is just casual. That’s really the part that many players over think on.

GW2 is like any single player game, you play through it once, then you get to the end and put it on the shelf until and expansion arive, unless something more fun has arrived by then.

that’s it i’ve missed it the entire time…end game….

looks all over tyria for end game, checks under rocks, in caves and up mountains but can’t find this ellusive thing known as end game…

i keep exploring and searching for this thing i keep hearing about in towns and villages called end game and wonder if i’ll ever find it.

now then, my joke out of the way there is no end game none what so ever not even a viable pvp option due to class imbalances they refuse to resolve.

no pve end game…..and do not say exploring that’s just a ridiculous notion of end game.

no working pvp end game spvp from what i gather is working? maybe but wvw is just lol at all the bugs.

i’ll send my character out on his own from now on, perhaps he can find end game for me while i play a real rpg.

it’s an mmo…lets just leave out the rpg untill it’s actually added.

and someone can let me know when an mmo comes out that actually has rpg in it and i’ll even be impressed.

@Orlen – So what IS accepting PvE endgame? Since exploration isn’t one, please don’t say raids.

You want real roleplay?

In long time now roleplay was forgoten, the mist of time have erased all traces of it, but some still remember, and still search for it, across mountains and oceans, down dangerous caverns and high in magical temples of ancient wizardry and wisdom… Have you start your quest? what have you done young adveturer to find the legendary roleplay?

Kids these days “lets just leave out the rpg until it`s actually added.” You do not wait for RPG to be added, you make it yourself.

orlen.7810:

that’s it i’ve missed it the entire time…end game….

looks all over tyria for end game, checks under rocks, in caves and up mountains but can’t find this ellusive thing known as end game….

The endgame was looking under the rocks

Kelgrim.2146:

Sometimes you just don’t like something. With MMO’s people seem to be a bit more vocal / whiny about what they don’t like.

No, i don’t think that the averag MMO player is more vocal than -say- the average TV-watcher.

It is just easier for us to voice our opinions, because we have these forums tied to the game, that is all.

Besides… I think that feedback (even the whiny ones) are important for gaming companies.

A whiny customer is a customer that tells you what they want to change. That’s a good thing for companies. Sometimes they can change things to satisfy these people. Sometimes they can not, but they can explain why they did something. But companies can talk to them, make them stay.

It are the customers that do NOT say anything, they customers that will just leave that are much more difficult to keep.

Tallis.5607:
Besides… I think that feedback (even the whiny ones) are important for gaming companies.

A whiny customer is a customer that tells you what they want to change. That’s a good thing for companies. Sometimes they can change things to satisfy these people.

I agree with this.
One of the reasons why I always give feedbacks and personal opinions towards this game is because I love the game I’m playing. If it’s a game I hate, I wouldn’t give any attention to it at all. These “complains/whines/feedbacks” (whichever it’s perceived as) are very important for gaming companies to know their players.

All of these endgame complaints are caused by people used to the WoW scenario where you spent a couple months getting +1 on a stat just because it makes you just a bit better than everyone else. Look, if gw2 was like wow, then it would’ve been “gw2 is too much like wow, will probably get stomped by MoP when it comes(came) out”, but it isn’t. It tries to do it like a sprpg with an mmo and does it fairly nicely.

However, there are a ton of bugs which are mere unacceptable, how can they introduce new content, when clearly there are gaping holes, stated by the OP. There are class bugs, environment bugs and a ton of other random bugs. I know you programmers are hard at work, but please, you need to fix the botters and bugs, you’re making it not fun for us.

@helladoom.4317: Not what I said. I just said its been stated several times that this game is designed with a focus on PvP and that if you have zero interest in PvP it might not be a great idea to play it.

Personally I havent done much yet, did some WvW while leveling my first two 80s and then I havent done any WvW until yesterday night actually. I’m still having tons to do, I havent done all the dungeons yet, only rank 20 so far in sPvP, havent leveled any crafts, have 5 more professions to get to 80. I still enjoy my time very much and I dont feel forced to do anything.

And the people that say they hate PvP should really try out WvW if they havent, its a blast.