Guild Wars 2

It may appear to look as thou this is a qq thread but it’s not my intention,
The devs look like really nice peeps and im sure they are, they just have a nice way about them and i like them, i wonder thou what actually happened with gw2.

Things from the manifesto are quite the opposite, grind for example, i am sure the devs have been asked this before but idk, why the change? what happened? was it necessary? was the manifesto a ideal to strive for but in reality not really possible?

Does anyone have any links to the devs explaining why the game isn’t like the manifesto?

Again this isn’t a qq thread, i guess they had to make these changes but id like to know why.

Not anything directly. It’s a question that has been dodged and avoided a few times.

The best we had was something like “During the development of a game priorities and ideas change and we did what we thought would work best”

$$$

/15 chars

in some months, i didn’t find a single line explaining why anet joined the dark side of mmo’s: massive grinding.
they just announced it like an ordinary news.

there are lots of flaming posts of people like me and you who noticed that anet betrayed manifesto.

but unfortunately, i read also too much people who want even more grinding.
because the typical mmo-nerd says: “if i play more hours than you, i’ll have better equip than you…and if u want to be competitive, just play more”
that’s the golden rule of mmo world.
many people can’t play 200h only for a skin. they want a carrot on a stick.
or a gear treadmill. a concrete advantage over “n00bs” playing 2-3times a week.
for these people, mostly coming from other mmos, ascended equip is still too little a difference.
as anet learned its new audience behavior (not the ones they targeted at the very beginning, who like an horizontal growth, but new people coming from wow or similar), just without any explanation to customers, introduced what make they earn more money, or have more players (i think both): making gw2 similar to any other mmo on the market.

but they will never openly admit what they did, or why.
it’s marketing, not coherence. it’ money.
they’ll just say: it’s no grind, it’s not necessary.
and many people mainly fanboys or “infiltrates”, will say the same.
but all of us do know the truth.
gw2 is nothing like the game anet promised.

the only thing to do then is…look for another game.

mesme.5028:

It may appear to look as thou this is a qq thread but it’s not my intention,
The devs look like really nice peeps and im sure they are, they just have a nice way about them and i like them, i wonder thou what actually happened with gw2.

Things from the manifesto are quite the opposite, grind for example, i am sure the devs have been asked this before but idk, why the change? what happened? was it necessary? was the manifesto a ideal to strive for but in reality not really possible?

Does anyone have any links to the devs explaining why the game isn’t like the manifesto?

Again this isn’t a qq thread, i guess they had to make these changes but id like to know why.

Its because things just change to suit what their customer base needs(NOT WANTS… NEEDS… I cant stress that enough cause quite obviously we havent gotten entirely what we want but we got what we NEED to keep us logging in every day). The manifesto is several years old… things came up… whatever they did they did for what in their opinion was best for the entire playerbase not just the vocal few who still even remember there was such a ridiculous manifesto made… like just reading it makes me laugh at this point to think they ever thought they could accomplish everything in there in that exact way. If there was no grind, no timegating, no blah blah blah people would leave in more droves than they already do because there would be even less to do on a daily basis. And while people seem to dislike it, fact of the matter is all things being equal without dailies and timegated stuff there would be a lot less people on all the time.

mesme.5028:

It may appear to look as thou this is a qq thread but it’s not my intention,
The devs look like really nice peeps and im sure they are, they just have a nice way about them and i like them, i wonder thou what actually happened with gw2.

Things from the manifesto are quite the opposite, grind for example, i am sure the devs have been asked this before but idk, why the change? what happened? was it necessary? was the manifesto a ideal to strive for but in reality not really possible?

Does anyone have any links to the devs explaining why the game isn’t like the manifesto?

Again this isn’t a qq thread, i guess they had to make these changes but id like to know why.

Marketing Campaign

Show me where the endless gear grind is in this game and I’ll consider considering that they may have shifted from the ideas presented in the manifesto. Yes, ascended gear itself can be a bit grindy (read: Time consuming) to get. However there is no endless treadmill of tossing away old gear for newer, more powerful gear which is exactly what the manifesto was referring to.

There is no treadmill, as promised. The fact that they’ve stuck to the manifesto in that regards is commendable.

While many things have changed between then and now people continue to point at the use of grind, which hasn’t, because they don;t know what the word means.

Grinding is forced (reread that last word) repetition of menial tasks in order to advance in the game. At no time in GW2 are you in anyway forced into repetitive menial tasks in order to progress in the game.

Farming events to make gold to get an expensive skin or Legendary is absolutely not forced since there are a million different ways to make gold.

Farming a dungeon to get tokens to buy exotic armor/weapons is also not a grind as there are a plethora of ways to get them.

Perhaps the closest thing to a grind is dailies since they are required to get some ascended pieces, but that really has the change from pure horizontal to some vertical progression to blame. Also they have worked hard to redesign it so that it takes minimal going out of your way to accomplish on most days.

If you had ever played a Korean MMO where you run out of quests at level 6 and are forced to spend an hour killing mobs between levels 5-7 (which there is only 1 mob of each level) in order to get to level 7, then you would know where the term grind came from.

VOLKON.1290:

Show me where the endless gear grind is in this game and I’ll consider considering that they may have shifted from the ideas presented in the manifesto. Yes, ascended gear itself can be a bit grindy (read: Time consuming) to get. However there is no endless treadmill of tossing away old gear for newer, more powerful gear which is exactly what the manifesto was referring to.

There is no treadmill, as promised. The fact that they’ve stuck to the manifesto in that regards is commendable.

false. it’s a treadmill. and they broke their manifesto. period.
i don’t care if without dailies or monthly there would be less players online.

it’s not daily itself the problem for me.
if a guy needs grinding, do it yourself.
do it for a new color or skin or just to make money.
that’s ok.

that’s not ok: with dailies (or any other grind) you can craft ascended weapons and stuff.
it’s 5perc stats a very little advantage? or AR?
i don’t care. there is a difference with exotic.
(and AR is quite important for fotm.)

cosmetic upgrades are still allowed and aligned with manifesto.
but not gear treadmill.

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

I don’t understand the logic of that… Treadmill implies never ending, they planned on adding ascended gear very early in the game and are not adding anymore tiers.

Its just seems people like to complain when they can’t be instantly gratified and might have to actually put some time into something. Then proceed to make inflated claims to try to get their way.

Kevan.8912:

false. it’s a treadmill. and they broke their manifesto. period.

Define your definition of treadmill.

Here is a tautology: “There is either one tier, or more than one tier”. (Here existence of a game with item implies that the number of tiers cannot be less than 1, the smallest natural number)

Is it: “If there is more than ONE item tier at all, then it’s a treadmill”? If that’s the case then every game is treadmill. It’s trivially true, but doesn’t say anything.

If there is only one tier, I would just buy all my stuff from vendor, done. Got the best gear for 10s and put the game away, why bother playing while I can get the best gear in 1 minute?

So again, define your definition of “treadmill”

Kevan.8912:

i don’t care if without dailies or monthly there would be less players online.

You sure don’t, but developers do and they control the game.

Kevan.8912:

that’s not ok: with dailies (or any other grind) you can craft ascended weapons and stuff.

Why not ok? Laurels are so easy to get these days. I’ve been playing on and off, skipping 3 months of summer and I have over 1,000 (one thousand) laurels. I’m not even sure what to use them on.

Kevan.8912:

VOLKON.1290:

Show me where the endless gear grind is in this game and I’ll consider considering that they may have shifted from the ideas presented in the manifesto. Yes, ascended gear itself can be a bit grindy (read: Time consuming) to get. However there is no endless treadmill of tossing away old gear for newer, more powerful gear which is exactly what the manifesto was referring to.

There is no treadmill, as promised. The fact that they’ve stuck to the manifesto in that regards is commendable.

false. it’s a treadmill. and they broke their manifesto. period.
i don’t care if without dailies or monthly there would be less players online.

it’s not daily itself the problem for me.
if a guy needs grinding, do it yourself.
do it for a new color or skin or just to make money.
that’s ok.

that’s not ok: with dailies (or any other grind) you can craft ascended weapons and stuff.
it’s 5perc stats a very little advantage? or AR?
i don’t care. there is a difference with exotic.
(and AR is quite important for fotm.)

cosmetic upgrades are still allowed and aligned with manifesto.
but not gear treadmill.

You call things a treadmill yet show no indication of actually knowing what a treadmill is. Let’s put it this way… games with actual treadmills (like WoW for example) don’t need to have threads like the CDI currently open now. Why? They have an inherent treadmill to keep players hooked on a false sense of progression.

Buried and forgotten under a pile of money.

^This.

(15 chars)

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

I don’t understand the logic of that… Treadmill implies never ending, they planned on adding ascended gear very early in the game and are not adding anymore tiers.

Its just seems people like to complain when they can’t be instantly gratified and might have to actually put some time into something. Then proceed to make inflated claims to try to get their way.

Ascended gear is a new addition, the other tiers existed at launch.

You can’t tell if you’re on a path or a treadmill until the ground starts to move. Adding any additional tier may be a lengthening of the path or the start of a treadmill. And really, what’s the difference.

without any philosophy:
i played wow, until cataclysm. i do know the difference with wow.
i know what is a treadmill. however, showing that wow has more grinding than gw2 is not an excuse.

then:
“GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun”
just copy and paste.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

treadmill:
difference exotic-legendary-ascended is easy.
stop kidding. everybody of you knows it better than me.
-exotic is easy to obtain and gave access to almost all content in game until ascended.
-legendary is just a cosmetic matter. i don’t need it. nobody forced me to have one.
-ascended: it’s not cosmetic, it’s hard to acquire, it’s needed for AR high level fractals and bosses.

about daily and monthly:
true, anet obviously need to keep people playing.
ok. create new “optional” content. titles. mounts. gems. what do you prefer.
if a player wants to be admired because played for 4k hours, just show a brand new skin. a beautiful pet. a title. a…boh?
a miniature. a commander badge…

but time spent in game should not give any advantage in battle and characters’ “potential”. this is horizontal progression. that’s the opposite of treadmill. (everyone should be the same. if one is more skilled because is well trained playing several hours a day (and has a knowledge of the game different than a casual like me), wins…but only relying on his skill. not on a better piece of equip)
that’s why many people bought this game. as a casual game.

i want everything here and now?
definitely yes. it’s what they promised. fun. not grind to start to play.

So what your saying is yes, because ascended armor is not easy to get… by your definition makes it a gear treadmill.

Sorry not all of us feel that way, if they had said they planned to add more tier I might be inclined to agree with you. Easy and hard are subjective things, I don’t find it hard to obtain, just going to take a few weeks.

IE high level fractals, not even remotely considered casual content, much harder to get unlocked than ascended armor. I find it backwards that people use this as an excuse why it shouldn’t be hard to obtain or it should not exist.

You in no way have to “prepare for hours” in this game to have fun. Ascended armor is not restrictive to content. You can play content instead of grinding out materials and slowly save for it. It is people’s mentality that prevent them from doing this, not the game.

A gear treadmill game would require that you get the best gear to participate and constantly add more tiers, Guild Wars 2 does not.

The game needs some type of progression to be rewarded for playing or it wouldn’t even be a game. If not everyone would start at level 80 and have max gear. Sorry there needs to be some type of challenge and progression in a MMO, you cant always have everything here and now.

Mireles Lore.5942:

The game needs some type of progression to be rewarded for playing or it wouldn’t even be a game. If not everyone would start at level 80 and have max gear. Sorry there needs to be some type of challenge and progression in a MMO, you cant always have everything here and now.

You don’t need progression, you need an objective. For example, chess, checkers, bridge, baseball, backgammon, Life, four square, volleyball, euchre, hearts, Settlers of Catan, Rook, Sorry, Boggle, Apples to Apples, Uno, Clue, Monopoly, Mousetrap,
Yahtzee, Bejeweled, Peggle …

Mireles Lore.5942:

So what your saying is yes, because ascended armor is not easy to get… by your definition makes it a gear treadmill.
……………………
you cant always have everything here and now.

what i’m saying is exactly what you read. i think it’s sufficiently self-explanatory xD
i’m not just saying “yes”.

ok. some of you is satisfied with this kind of things.
some others don’t.
the fact there was a clear manifesto remains.
true:(for now) there’s no need to change tier X equip every 3months.
still there’s a need to grind to get ascended equipment.
in contrast with the reasons progs gave us to buy their product.
if i knew it from the beginning, i wouldn’t have bought it
(sorry, i’m not english, i’m sure grammar is bad)

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

1) Legendary used to have identical stats to exotic, and was thus cosmetic only.
2) It was possible to get exotic items (best in slot) from basically any activity in the game, with very little repetition. Dungeonrunning, crafting, boss farming, random drops, etc.
3) Exotic didn’t require crazy amounts of time/money to acquire.

Personally I’d have preferred them to keep exotic out too, and have Rare as maximum gear tier, and have the power between rarity levels much smaller. Like 18% for blue, 19% for green, 20% for yellow. What GW1 did perfectly.

Honestly, you need to look at marketing for what it is.

Face it, any MMORPG survives off of some kind of “grind to get gear” gameplay.
If you didn’t have that people would have no goal to aim for and quit to play something else. You always need a goal or something to accomplish now days it seems.
WvW could survive without goals or rewards, but I think many would complain if they didn’t get something for winning the match.

It is like some people don’t want gear grind but then if there wasn’t any at all they would complain they are bored because there is no reason to do anything.

i’m pretty sure that many players need the carrot on a stick…
the global trend of mmo is quite evident. grind is the main part of the game, and sometimes the only part

but i’ll never stop saying that i bought gw2, and not “any mmo”,
because of what progs stated in their manifesto, and what the game was like in the very beginning.
and if nowadays it’s the main way to keep players on keyboard and mouse, it doesn’t mean that it is the only way.

gw2 progs affirmed that they could change it.
please anet keep your word.

TooBz.3065:

Mireles Lore.5942:

The game needs some type of progression to be rewarded for playing or it wouldn’t even be a game. If not everyone would start at level 80 and have max gear. Sorry there needs to be some type of challenge and progression in a MMO, you cant always have everything here and now.

You don’t need progression, you need an objective. For example, chess, checkers, bridge, baseball, backgammon, Life, four square, volleyball, euchre, hearts, Settlers of Catan, Rook, Sorry, Boggle, Apples to Apples, Uno, Clue, Monopoly, Mousetrap,
Yahtzee, Bejeweled, Peggle …

What horrible examples. Those games have hard ends. Reach objective, game over. MMOs don’t “end” in that regards, therefore you need progression instead of “an objective”.

progression isn’t always a better gear.

could be something else.
could be elite classes. could be new story modes. skins. mounts. achievements. gold. a house. elite pets. more bag slots. portable bank express
heirloom weapons to level easily other characters.
exp or gold powerups. the cultural armors! (many of them already exist, but are only random drops or need gems)
or simply a better knowledge of gameplay.

anything merely cosmetic that doesnt alter or improve your character’s ingame performance, and doesn’t push you to do something to fight on a par with others.

you say high level fractals is not noobs’ interest. are you sure?
only because i can’t play 10hours a day for months i should have it in a year?
casual is not a b series player. sometimes it’s a lifestyle. a free decision.
not a handicap. only because the typical mmo player plays average 7-8hrs a day…

What a lot of people in this thread arent looking at is from the point of a new player. They are told the best gear in the game is ascended gear (and it is) so that is what they go for because everyone knows if you have any type of edge (mainly wvw) people will take you for dungeons or you will have an easier time in wvw. The only place where the manifesto is still in effect is spvp and tpvp.

You are already seeing things like this happen in dungeons with the lfg tool where people saying “zerker ascended gear only 4k achive points” that basically makes my necromancer useless in more ways than one. The ascended items like the neck rings and trinkets have a higher increase in stats than just 5%, its actually almost doubled in stats. Take the berserker rings, exotic has 67 power 48 precision and 3% critical damage with no upgrades. The ascended berserker rings have 103 power 68 precision and 8% critical damage. Thats almost a 40 point gain in power, a 20 point gain in precision and 5% gain in critical damage. With a upgrade in the exotic gear it is a lower jump but it is still a big enough difference for people to need it to stay competitive in wvw if numbers of players remain at a constant.

Yeah you dont “need” ascended gear for most of the pve content but its the best gear you can get and if you arent working towards it then why even bother playing. You can get exotics in about a min now unless your going for something other than crafted gear from the AH.

You have to grind out 2-3 crafting professions to be able to craft ascended gear and have around 25 gold just for the ascended recipes and thats at a minimum, you have to get the materials to craft ascended which means grinding, and you have to do fractals for the back piece and you need to either grind out dailies and monthlies for the other slots or you have to do fractals and get drops.

All that for a new player just to be on a level playing field in wvw. Also the reason why they added ascended gear in the first place was because people got exotics way too fast and there wouldnt be longevity in the game. So instead of sticking with their original plan of releasing skins to keep people interested and something to work towards they just added a new tier over a long period of time and made it a grindfest.

If i didnt want to get into dungeons and eventually fractals i would be done with the game already since champ trains are next to useless aside from… ascended gear mat farming.

VOLKON.1290:

Kevan.8912:

VOLKON.1290:

Show me where the endless gear grind is in this game and I’ll consider considering that they may have shifted from the ideas presented in the manifesto. Yes, ascended gear itself can be a bit grindy (read: Time consuming) to get. However there is no endless treadmill of tossing away old gear for newer, more powerful gear which is exactly what the manifesto was referring to.

There is no treadmill, as promised. The fact that they’ve stuck to the manifesto in that regards is commendable.

false. it’s a treadmill. and they broke their manifesto. period.
i don’t care if without dailies or monthly there would be less players online.

it’s not daily itself the problem for me.
if a guy needs grinding, do it yourself.
do it for a new color or skin or just to make money.
that’s ok.

that’s not ok: with dailies (or any other grind) you can craft ascended weapons and stuff.
it’s 5perc stats a very little advantage? or AR?
i don’t care. there is a difference with exotic.
(and AR is quite important for fotm.)

cosmetic upgrades are still allowed and aligned with manifesto.
but not gear treadmill.

You call things a treadmill yet show no indication of actually knowing what a treadmill is. Let’s put it this way… games with actual treadmills (like WoW for example) don’t need to have threads like the CDI currently open now. Why? They have an inherent treadmill to keep players hooked on a false sense of progression.

How is that progression false? How do you define true progression?

it’s a sort of “Pxyy On My Head And Tell Me It’s Raining”
just gimme new ultramegapowa items with a pair more zeros…but don’t call it treadmill, it’s taboo.
call it “progression”
-end of joking-

i think volkon says that it ‘s not because you are not prevented from accessing a new tier if u don’t have previous contents.

however, that’s not true IMHO.
for me (a casual), gear treadmill is the easy way to improve game longevity by simply adding more powerful stats-etc items.
and that describes precisely what anet has just begun, although if from now to 100years they stop item quality to ascended.
they already broke their promises.

“That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.”
cit.Colin Johansson

that phrase is the end of games i think

The manifesto is dead. Killed by money talk.

Mireles Lore.5942:

So what your saying is yes, because ascended armor is not easy to get… by your definition makes it a gear treadmill.

No, because it is a better best-in-slot then the previous best-in-slot. The previous best-in-slot was obtainable with regular play while the new best-in-slot require grind. And frankly, I find my daytime job more fun then MMO-grind.

Sorry not all of us feel that way, if they had said they planned to add more tier

They never said they planned for the current tier best-in-slot and I doubt they’d be announcing the next tier (or many would be waiting).

Ascended armor is not restrictive to content.

It will be, eventually. They’ll add new content (they already have added new content) balanced for the current best-in-slot.

The game needs some type of progression to be rewarded for playing or it wouldn’t even be a game.

You are contradicting your earlier statement about there not being a gear-treadmill by saying there must be progression for it to be a game.

On a side note, completing interesting challenges is enough for me, I find it a silly notion that there must be (gear) progression to make it a game.

This is just another QQ thread from players who don’t understand what the original Manifesto was.

There is no grind required in this game. None. Here’s how it works:

Player A – I want these awesome new Ascended armors. I need these to be the best player in game!
Player B – Me too! Let’s start making the gear.
Player A – (looks at required mats) Wow! So much time gates! This is a grind…
*1 month later
Player A – I now have my full set of Ascended gear! Time to PvP someone in the WvW Boarderlands.
Player C – I only have Exotic gear. Let’s 1 vs 1.
*5 minutes later
Player A – How did I lose to you??? I have full BiS gear!
Player C – I have skill.

Moral of the story. Ascended gear is not required to play this game, nor does it make you a better player. It’s BiS end game content that you aim for. It’s a goal you set for yourself, and not something that you can just get on a whim. You put in the efforts to gather/buy the materials needed, and you’re rewarded with BiS gear. By doing so, you make the choice to “grind”. Anet doesn’t force that on you.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

This is just another QQ thread from players who don’t understand what the original Manifesto was.

There is no grind required in this game. None. Here’s how it works:

Player A – I want these awesome new Ascended armors. I need these to be the best player in game!
Player B – Me too! Let’s start making the gear.
Player A – (looks at required mats) Wow! So much time gates! This is a grind…
*1 month later
Player A – I now have my full set of Ascended gear! Time to PvP someone in the WvW Boarderlands.
Player C – I only have Exotic gear. Let’s 1 vs 1.
*5 minutes later
Player A – How did I lose to you??? I have full BiS gear!
Player C – I have skill.

Moral of the story. Ascended gear is not required to play this game, nor does it make you a better player. It’s BiS end game content that you aim for. It’s a goal you set for yourself, and not something that you can just get on a whim. You put in the efforts to gather/buy the materials needed, and you’re rewarded with BiS gear. By doing so, you make the choice to “grind”. Anet doesn’t force that on you.

I don’t understand how anything you said relates to the manifesto.

TooBz.3065:

I don’t understand how anything you said relates to the manifesto.

This was in response to the OP, who is complaining about the Manifesto’s “no grind” quote. There is no required grind in GW2. I gave an example of how players misunderstand the Manifesto.

Here is the reason why the manifesto was abandoned.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-08-nexon-acquires-15-percent-stake-in-ncsoft
“Nexon acquires 15% stake in NCsoft”

http://my.mmosite.com/2221790/blog/item/guild_wars_2_team_hires_nexon_employee_as_cash_shop_manager_changes_already_apparent.html
“Guild Wars 2 team hires Nexon employee as cash shop manager, changes already apparent”

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TooBz.3065:

I don’t understand how anything you said relates to the manifesto.

This was in response to the OP, who is complaining about the Manifesto’s “no grind” quote. There is no required grind in GW2. I gave an example of how players misunderstand the Manifesto.

Ah, for once I agree with you. I found two quotes that seem relevant to grinding in the manifesto.

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

As long as your ok with being sub-optimal this is true. They don’t gate you to force you keep up with the Jones.

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

Nothing about ascended gear is fun, so no contradiction there.

I think the complaint is a general whine that this game is not the game that ANet implied they were making. A lot of people made inferences and got their hopes up for something that didn’t happen and now they are looking for an explanation of what happened. But there is none and will be none.

For most people, when we don’t deliver on expectations there is an accounting. But what most people don’t seem understand is that ANet is really only accountable to their shareholders. As long as they make the expected profit things are good, if they aren’t making the expected profit then things are bad and they need to explain.

sonicwhip.9052:

Here is the reason why the manifesto was abandoned.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-08-nexon-acquires-15-percent-stake-in-ncsoft
“Nexon acquires 15% stake in NCsoft”

http://my.mmosite.com/2221790/blog/item/guild_wars_2_team_hires_nexon_employee_as_cash_shop_manager_changes_already_apparent.html
“Guild Wars 2 team hires Nexon employee as cash shop manager, changes already apparent”

As much as I dislike Nexon, GW2’s original Manifesto is still intact. Having appealing Gem Store items doesn’t change anything, since you can buy everything without spending any real world money on this game.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

sonicwhip.9052:

Here is the reason why the manifesto was abandoned.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-08-nexon-acquires-15-percent-stake-in-ncsoft
“Nexon acquires 15% stake in NCsoft”

http://my.mmosite.com/2221790/blog/item/guild_wars_2_team_hires_nexon_employee_as_cash_shop_manager_changes_already_apparent.html
“Guild Wars 2 team hires Nexon employee as cash shop manager, changes already apparent”

As much as I dislike Nexon, GW2’s original Manifesto is still intact. Having appealing Gem Store items doesn’t change anything, since you can buy everything without spending any real world money on this game.

Ok, in general, I think manifesto discussions are counter productive. But I think that any complete discussion needs to look at what ArenaNet said, what they implied, and what people inferred.

These things may all be different. IMO, what ArenaNet said and what they intentionally implied are all part of the manifesto. I also think that what people inferred is also reasonably part of the manifesto insofar as ArenaNet should have known people thought that and they didn’t do anything to correct the inference.

re: Crystin Cox, it’s absurd to criticize a B2P game that owes its continued success to gameplay monetization for hiring an experience monetization manager. I believe she was hired because she has experience in bringing in the kind of revenue that GW2 needs in order to continue to run servers and deliver a reasonable profit. She was not a plant, she’s one of the few people who knows how to do this.

TooBz.3065:

I think the complaint is a general whine that this game is not the game that ANet implied they were making. A lot of people made inferences and got their hopes up for something that didn’t happen and now they are looking for an explanation of what happened. But there is none and will be none.

For most people, when we don’t deliver on expectations there is an accounting. But what most people don’t seem understand is that ANet is really only accountable to their shareholders. As long as they make the expected profit things are good, if they aren’t making the expected profit then things are bad and they need to explain.

The business culture in Asia is a lot different than from the US. Players want information, and we’re only given what we’re allowed to hear. Employees can’t just leak information or say things that are counter to the goals of NCSoft. So of course this will lead to speculation and anger at times. I’m still upset about the (assumed) reason for no Cantha. But I disgress. Anet is owned in whole by NCSoft. They must meet expectations from the corporate body, who in turn must make a good showing on their earnings reports to investors.

As for the topic at hand, the Manifesto was a guide that showed why Guild Wars 2 was different. People would take parts of it, and twist it to what their understanding of things are. Some thought “no grind” mean they were entitled to everything easily or free. So when threads like this pops up, it’s sad that the Entitled players try to justify their complaints over their own misunderstandings of how things are.

1- grind is grind. and if it has any impact on charact. performance, it becomes necessary. nobody likes to be underequipped, also “only” 5-10perc. stats.

manifesto said clearly no grind. end.

however, just to answer:
2- a skilled player in exotic vs skilled in ascended would have different result.
3- you need it if doing fractals. and it’s very useful in wvw.

i think that everybody who likes grinding and treadmill should just say: "well, i like it. "
because for anet there are no excuses, what everybody links from manifesto is quite easy to understand.

“it’s sad that the Entitled players try to justify their complaints over their own misunderstandings of how things are.”
i don0t see any misunderstandings in quoting something. there no contextualization. the meaning is simply what they wrote.

it’s true anet must meet expectations to investors, not to players.
nonetheless, once i know that every single thing they say there is also a minimum risk to be contradicted earlier or later, anet trust is definitely gone.
and also many player go away together with trust.

Kevan.8912:

1- grind is grind. and if it has any impact on charact. performance, it becomes necessary. nobody likes to be underequipped, also “only” 5-10perc. stats.

manifesto said clearly no grind. end.

however, just to answer:
2- a skilled player in exotic vs skilled in ascended would have different result.
3- you need it if doing fractals. and it’s very useful in wvw.

i think that everybody who likes grinding and treadmill should just say: "well, i like it. "
because for anet there are no excuses, what everybody links from manifesto is quite easy to understand.

I can easily counter your arguments

1) Anet said there’s no grind required in this game. They never said they wouldn’t have any for those who choose to do it. The grind is there to provide players with the option of going after gear. Otherwise, you can still enjoy this game quite well with low end gear.

2) Skill vs Skill + small stat increase = unknown. If you can hit for 1k more damage with your strongest attack, that means nothing when I’m able to evade the hit. No one has equal skill, so stat increases only give the illusion that you’d be better.

3) I can do Fractals just fine without Ascended armor. And there’s no Agony in WvW.

what you extrapolate from anet words is your interpretations, not “the very one interpretation”.
“no grind” means exactly “no grind”, not “no grind because someone else thinks that you don’t need it”.
because the simple fact that there is an improvement in gameplay, although it is very little, it’s a treadmill.
i never flamed against grinding for legendary items. it was only cosmetic.
ascended is totally different.
everything else is just talking.
that’s all for me.

and…happy new year ^^

Kevan.8912:

what you extrapolate from anet words is your interpretations, not “the very one interpretation”.
“no grind” means exactly “no grind”, not “no grind because someone else thinks that you don’t need it”.
because the simple fact that there is an improvement in gameplay, although it is very little, it’s a treadmill.
i never flamed against grinding for legendary items. it was only cosmetic.
ascended is totally different.
everything else is just talking.
that’s all for me.

Because of your misinterpretation of the Manifesto, complaints like this thread exist. The Manifesto is about having fun in the game. If you think having BiS gear is fun, that’s fine because you play how you want. But if you “need” BiS gear, you can’t complain, since Anet provides you with the means to have your fun. The gear is there, as is the requirements to get them.

I’m getting my Ascended armor because I want to, not because I need it. When I WvW, Ascended gear won’t make me a better player. When I PvE, I’ll kill Tequatl in about the same amount of time it would take if I had all Exotics. The rat in the corner of the fort still dies in the same amount of time and effort.

People complaining about “grind” truly have no idea what a real MMO grind is. GW2 is no where near that.

The so-called “Manifesto” was but one of the marketing releases ANet used to entice players to play the game. Frankly, they’ve adhered more to the manifesto than they have to some of those other documents (e.g., https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/ ).

This thread, like the many before it in the same vein, is beating a dead horse. However, the continual recurrence of this theme speaks volumes about how marketing raises expectations, and how difficult it is for a game developer to live up to its own press.

Guild Wars 2 needs some form of grind sadly like every other MMO for the simple fact if there is no grind whatso ever then you’ll play it like a singleplayer game til you beat it then move on to another game.

Skill vs Skill = Unknown? No the one with the better gear in the case of this arguement ascended and exotic, the person with ascended is going to win. Oh i dodged your hard hitting ability and your in ascended gear… yeah and i dodged yours, the difference is my aa’kitten harder than yours so eventually im going to down you.

The only place where Skill vs Skill = Unknown is in spvp but in wvw its a numbers game along with a gear game. The difference between rare and exotic isnt that big stat wise but it helps you in wvw a ton so with other people getting ascended gear you yourself have to go through the process of getting it as well to stay competitive. You dont see people in world first races saying “oh i only go up 2% in dps so it doesnt matter” your gm would kick you so fast its not even funny because that 2% could give your guild world first. With a wvw ladder and the ability to have bragging rights saying “we are number 1” could mean they had ascended gear, or more players.

To keep things fair in wvw they should just make it so stats cap at a point where you would have full exotics and you cant go over that. So ascended is only useful where it doesnt matter since its broken anyways and thats pve. Then it would be 100% skill vs skill and if you want to compete then get exotics which are pretty easy to get now, takes 2 min on the ah if you have enough gold and if you want to change the look of it converting your gems to gold after your skin purchase or transmutation purchase you should have enough gold to get a full set with some to spare.

Torgrim.3642:

Guild Wars 2 needs some form of grind sadly like every other MMO for the simple fact if there is no grind whatso ever then you’ll play it like a singleplayer game til you beat it then move on to another game.

Most of the people have already beaten it. Once you do arah for the story, and have at least full exotic that takes 2 min now, you have beaten it. What the grinds were supposed to be for were skins and for the most part thats what it was after you got your first set of exotics.

sPVP is the only thing that has stayed consistent throughout the games life where skins are the rewards.

Jongi.7612:

Skill vs Skill = Unknown? No the one with the better gear in the case of this arguement ascended and exotic, the person with ascended is going to win. Oh i dodged your hard hitting ability and your in ascended gear… yeah and i dodged yours, the difference is my aa’kitten harder than yours so eventually im going to down you.

The only place where Skill vs Skill = Unknown is in spvp but in wvw its a numbers game along with a gear game. The difference between rare and exotic isnt that big stat wise but it helps you in wvw a ton so with other people getting ascended gear you yourself have to go through the process of getting it as well to stay competitive. You dont see people in world first races saying “oh i only go up 2% in dps so it doesnt matter” your gm would kick you so fast its not even funny because that 2% could give your guild world first. With a wvw ladder and the ability to have bragging rights saying “we are number 1” could mean they had ascended gear, or more players.

To keep things fair in wvw they should just make it so stats cap at a point where you would have full exotics and you cant go over that. So ascended is only useful where it doesnt matter since its broken anyways and thats pve. Then it would be 100% skill vs skill and if you want to compete then get exotics which are pretty easy to get now, takes 2 min on the ah if you have enough gold and if you want to change the look of it converting your gems to gold after your skin purchase or transmutation purchase you should have enough gold to get a full set with some to spare.

When you have skill, you quickly realize how much more important that is than gear. You can’t say the other person in Ascended will win. As I said earlier, no two players have equal skill. It’s a game of moves and counter moves. Hit me once for big damage, fine. I hit back 4 times as much with 10% less DPS than you, and I still win.

TooBz.3065:

Mireles Lore.5942:

The game needs some type of progression to be rewarded for playing or it wouldn’t even be a game. If not everyone would start at level 80 and have max gear. Sorry there needs to be some type of challenge and progression in a MMO, you cant always have everything here and now.

You don’t need progression, you need an objective. For example, chess, checkers, bridge, baseball, backgammon, Life, four square, volleyball, euchre, hearts, Settlers of Catan, Rook, Sorry, Boggle, Apples to Apples, Uno, Clue, Monopoly, Mousetrap,
Yahtzee, Bejeweled, Peggle …

I think you’re playing the wrong game genre if you don’t want progression. What you, and others, seem to misunderstand is that GW2 isn’t a sandbox game. It’s still an RPG. Progression of your character is a huge, I’d say defining, feature of RPG games. That’s why we level our characters. That’s why there are tiers of gear. There is a level of “grind” in EVERY RPG. That’s why so many MMORPGs fail at end game. Suddenly you stop progressing. That’s why gear treadmills exist, to keep your character you’ve built up progressing. Whether they are good or just lazy is another issue though.

Also one tier does not a treadmill make. I’m really having a hard time seeing any treadmill with one tier released, 3 months after launch, in one year. Sounds like a pretty boring treadmill to me. As for grind, it seems it’s much like P2W now, something people twist to have a defense on their not wanting to do something. I can say anything is a grind now. Dailies are a grind! Leveling is a grind! Walking places is a grind! Logging on is a grind! Breathing is a grind! There is no way to have a RPG without some sort of grind. What depends if the extent of it. A whole month (if you crafted, and didn’t buy any mats) to get a full set of BiS ascended armor isn’t a long grind. A long grind is killing a group of mobs for a week to hit level 26…out of 60 (I’m looking at you just launched Aion).

Dalanor.5387:

$$$

/15 chars

Likely the case, the tone of things seemed to change after the change in major share holder for the parent company, a shareholder who’s well known for only caring about profit margins. Launch date followed soon after acquisition was finalised. Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a required gem quota to fill each month.

VOLKON.1290:

Show me where the endless gear grind is in this game and I’ll consider considering that they may have shifted from the ideas presented in the manifesto. Yes, ascended gear itself can be a bit grindy (read: Time consuming) to get. However there is no endless treadmill of tossing away old gear for newer, more powerful gear which is exactly what the manifesto was referring to.

There is no treadmill, as promised. The fact that they’ve stuck to the manifesto in that regards is commendable.

They’ve also say they can’t promise it will remain BiS gear…which really just seems more like they are already in talks of either a level increase or a new tier at some point in the future.