Guild Wars 2

mtpelion.4562:

VOLKON.1290:

If you’re going to try and claim that the manifesto was somehow disregarded you should provide some sort of evidence backing it up. Arguing by assertion really isn’t good enough.

My argument is that a manifesto is not a contract, because it is written by the workers, not the suits who tell the workers what to do. Developers are like us, Publishers are not.

Ergo, when there is a disparity between the manifesto and reality, you can be sure that the Publishers in suits are behind it, not the Developers (who wrote it because they believe in it).

Ah, but there you go again. You’re making this assertion that there’s a disparity between the manifesto and the game yet providing nothing to back that up with. Just assertion.

VOLKON.1290:

…You’re making this assertion that there’s a disparity between the manifesto and the game…

Did I?

mtpelion.4562:

VOLKON.1290:

…You’re making this assertion that there’s a disparity between the manifesto and the game…

Did I?

“Ergo, when there is a disparity between the manifesto and reality,”

It appears so based on this wording, yes.

VOLKON.1290:

“Ergo, when there is a disparity between the manifesto and reality,”

It appears so based on this wording, yes.

“When” being the important word. I’m not saying there is a disparity, just explaining the reasons behind a disparity.

mtpelion.4562:

VOLKON.1290:

“Ergo, when there is a disparity between the manifesto and reality,”

It appears so based on this wording, yes.

“When” being the important word. I’m not saying there is a disparity, just explaining the reasons behind a disparity.

So you’re explaining a potential reason behind a disparity that doesn’t exist? This certainly wasn’t clear and gives the wrong impression.

VOLKON.1290:

mtpelion.4562:

VOLKON.1290:

“Ergo, when there is a disparity between the manifesto and reality,”

It appears so based on this wording, yes.

“When” being the important word. I’m not saying there is a disparity, just explaining the reasons behind a disparity.

So you’re explaining a potential reason behind a disparity that doesn’t exist? This certainly wasn’t clear and gives the wrong impression.

I got his point, clearly.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The addition of a single tier does not a treadmill make. It does set the precedent for a treadmill; however, they have assured us that they do not want to fall into that trap.

Like they assured us that the game would be about horizontal progression not grind for BiS items and ‘fun’ being the overriding development priority…………

morrolan.9608:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The addition of a single tier does not a treadmill make. It does set the precedent for a treadmill; however, they have assured us that they do not want to fall into that trap.

Like they assured us that the game would be about horizontal progression not grind for BiS items and ‘fun’ being the overriding development priority…………

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

VOLKON.1290:

Let’s put it this way… games with actual treadmills (like WoW for example) don’t need to have threads like the CDI currently open now. Why? They have an inherent treadmill to keep players hooked on a false sense of progression.

Well, I wouldn’t call it a false sense of progression. You actually have to beat progressively more difficult boss encounters to increase your stats. I’d say getting Ascended armor is more of a false sense of progression – you’re increasing your stats while standing at the crafting station in Lion’s Arch.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

morrolan.9608:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The addition of a single tier does not a treadmill make. It does set the precedent for a treadmill; however, they have assured us that they do not want to fall into that trap.

Like they assured us that the game would be about horizontal progression not grind for BiS items and ‘fun’ being the overriding development priority…………

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

If you don’t care about progression, why comment in response to a post alluding to a change in how the game handles it?

VOLKON.1290:

Ashen.2907:

VOLKON.1290:

The progression is false because it’s simply an illusion. They inflate your power and the raid boss power at the same rate, resulting in a net gain of zero.

I think that gaining in power so that you are capable of overcoming increasingly greater challenges is a pretty solid definition of progression in the context of a game.

That’s just it though… the gain in power has nothing to do with overcoming the new challenges. They could add the new challenges at the same power scale as the previous and you’d still have new challenges to overcome (without making obsolete the prior challenges). That’s the illusion of progression. ‘Congrats! You’ve earned gear that makes you 20% more powerful! Now meet Fluffy the Vampire Dragon Lich, who is 20% more powerful than the guys you just beat to become 20% more powerful! Yay!’

This illusory progression does two things. It deludes the player into thinking they’re more powerful when relative to the new content they’re not, and it funnels people through very narrow paths of content progression rendering prior content obsolete and barren. Neither of these is a good thing.

I think you missed my point, perhaps due to missing a single word in my post. I didn’t say, “new challenges,” I said, “greater challenges.”

The distinction is important to the point I made. The character becomes more capable of overcoming tougher opposition. The character is more powerful, as can be seen by the ease with which he can now defeat opponents that would have previously challenged him. But, as is common in a game, the character moves on to challenges worthy of his new found power.

When I improve my chess game in order to be able to challenge opponents higher rated than I the progression is not illusory because I opt to play primarily opponents who are a challenge for my new level of skill.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

morrolan.9608:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The addition of a single tier does not a treadmill make. It does set the precedent for a treadmill; however, they have assured us that they do not want to fall into that trap.

Like they assured us that the game would be about horizontal progression not grind for BiS items and ‘fun’ being the overriding development priority…………

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

If you don’t care about progression, why comment in response to a post alluding to a change in how the game handles it?

Because there’s a distinct lack of “it doesn’t matter to me” in the whole conversation. Because there’s talk from people who like it, people who don’t like it, but there is almost always a lack of people going “this stuff isn’t important to me”.

Because, as I have continuously said, Ascended/Legendary is a completely unnecessary BiS jump as Exotics work fine for the content in the game right now. It’s balanced so that even Exotics are unnecessary; I did quite a bit in Rares and am still doing things in rares on an alt.

But this topic is primarily about one aspect of the Manifesto video. (Which proves to me that companies need to stop releasing things like that, and players need to stop trying to make it heretical to miss the mark.) And it’s me pointing out the grind everyone wants to go nuts over isn’t really necessary to do well in the game. And no, not even in WvW.

morrolan.9608:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The addition of a single tier does not a treadmill make. It does set the precedent for a treadmill; however, they have assured us that they do not want to fall into that trap.

Like they assured us that the game would be about horizontal progression not grind for BiS items and ‘fun’ being the overriding development priority…………

I did agree previously that ascended went against their previous philosophy that we should have BiS items by level 80. However, we asked for it, we brought it on ourselves. The louder voices screamed for another gear tier, and we got it. Anet simply gave the loudest voices of the playerbase exactly what they asked for, though perhaps in the way they wanted it. Those of us that didn’t want it get to suffer (if we so choose, many aren’t even bothering), but we aren’t the loudest voices apparently.

I don’t think we have the right to criticize what they did or did not assure of us of before launch, when after launch what their player base wanted was not what they had planned for. You want to kitten at someone? Go kitten at the people that wanted more gear tiers (and still want more), and were loud enough to achieve getting it. Anet is only going to give their player base what the loudest screamers demand, because it’s usually within their best interest as a company (since those people fork over the cash).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

chuckle

I don’t think my ranger is so bad, personally. I don’t have any issues playing ‘normally’ (by my standards of play) with a ranger. Still, I’m aware most classes still need tweaking. We’ll see how the guys doing the balancing for GW2 manage as time progresses. I’m sure balancing the skills and classes is an intricate nightmare for them. So many possibilities and variations that have to be considered for the class itself, and then additionally all of the outside influences of the other classes. I don’t envy their job at all…

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

chuckle

I don’t think my ranger is so bad, personally. I don’t have any issues playing ‘normally’ (by my standards of play) with a ranger. Still, I’m aware most classes still need tweaking. We’ll see how the guys doing the balancing for GW2 manage as time progresses. I’m sure balancing the skills and classes is an intricate nightmare for them. So many possibilities and variations that have to be considered for the class itself, and then additionally all of the outside influences of the other classes. I don’t envy their job at all…

Oh don’t get me wrong, I love my ranger too. But my ranger hundreds of years ago was a lot better at this whole “keep your pet in check” thing? Not to mention pretty much managing a solo kill of the Great Destroyer . . . not that it was hard to do that. But that veers off topic quite a distance.

If there’s any part of the manifesto claims I would take issue with, it’s not the grind. It’s the lack of a decent answer to all those zones now where the DEs have entered “default failed” status. Ascalon Settlement is fallen, the dredge have a lot of territory near Sorrow’s Furnace, and Nageling has a giant problem almost all the time.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

chuckle

I don’t think my ranger is so bad, personally. I don’t have any issues playing ‘normally’ (by my standards of play) with a ranger. Still, I’m aware most classes still need tweaking. We’ll see how the guys doing the balancing for GW2 manage as time progresses. I’m sure balancing the skills and classes is an intricate nightmare for them. So many possibilities and variations that have to be considered for the class itself, and then additionally all of the outside influences of the other classes. I don’t envy their job at all…

Oh don’t get me wrong, I love my ranger too. But my ranger hundreds of years ago was a lot better at this whole “keep your pet in check” thing? Not to mention pretty much managing a solo kill of the Great Destroyer . . . not that it was hard to do that. But that veers off topic quite a distance.

It was a nice feature of gw1 that would could make our own builds, many loved this and the sig of capture, its also relevant as in the manifesto we were told
“Everything you loved about gw1” sadly this is something else untrue in the manifesto.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

morrolan.9608:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The addition of a single tier does not a treadmill make. It does set the precedent for a treadmill; however, they have assured us that they do not want to fall into that trap.

Like they assured us that the game would be about horizontal progression not grind for BiS items and ‘fun’ being the overriding development priority…………

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

If you don’t care about progression, why comment in response to a post alluding to a change in how the game handles it?

Because there’s a distinct lack of “it doesn’t matter to me” in the whole conversation. Because there’s talk from people who like it, people who don’t like it, but there is almost always a lack of people going “this stuff isn’t important to me”.

Because, as I have continuously said, Ascended/Legendary is a completely unnecessary BiS jump as Exotics work fine for the content in the game right now. It’s balanced so that even Exotics are unnecessary; I did quite a bit in Rares and am still doing things in rares on an alt.

But this topic is primarily about one aspect of the Manifesto video. (Which proves to me that companies need to stop releasing things like that, and players need to stop trying to make it heretical to miss the mark.) And it’s me pointing out the grind everyone wants to go nuts over isn’t really necessary to do well in the game. And no, not even in WvW.

I agree that ascended was unnecessary, perhaps even exotics, as you say the content and dungeons are doable in rare, the only thing would be high lvl fracts, but a fract armor could have been given with relics.

Some peeps want the latest armor to be bis, others need the armor to do 50 fracts

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

chuckle

I don’t think my ranger is so bad, personally. I don’t have any issues playing ‘normally’ (by my standards of play) with a ranger. Still, I’m aware most classes still need tweaking. We’ll see how the guys doing the balancing for GW2 manage as time progresses. I’m sure balancing the skills and classes is an intricate nightmare for them. So many possibilities and variations that have to be considered for the class itself, and then additionally all of the outside influences of the other classes. I don’t envy their job at all…

Oh don’t get me wrong, I love my ranger too. But my ranger hundreds of years ago was a lot better at this whole “keep your pet in check” thing? Not to mention pretty much managing a solo kill of the Great Destroyer . . . not that it was hard to do that. But that veers off topic quite a distance.

It was a nice feature of gw1 that would could make our own builds, many loved this and the sig of capture, its also relevant as in the manifesto we were told
“Everything you loved about gw1” sadly this is something else untrue in the manifesto.

They couldn’t have done “everything you loved about GW1” without just remaking GW1 with prettier graphics. Because there would definitely be something left out which people liked (even if it was Kormir).

Really, from a nitpicker’s standpoint, right about there you should have walked away and realized they were never going to follow every minor comment in there to the letter.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

chuckle

I don’t think my ranger is so bad, personally. I don’t have any issues playing ‘normally’ (by my standards of play) with a ranger. Still, I’m aware most classes still need tweaking. We’ll see how the guys doing the balancing for GW2 manage as time progresses. I’m sure balancing the skills and classes is an intricate nightmare for them. So many possibilities and variations that have to be considered for the class itself, and then additionally all of the outside influences of the other classes. I don’t envy their job at all…

Oh don’t get me wrong, I love my ranger too. But my ranger hundreds of years ago was a lot better at this whole “keep your pet in check” thing? Not to mention pretty much managing a solo kill of the Great Destroyer . . . not that it was hard to do that. But that veers off topic quite a distance.

It was a nice feature of gw1 that would could make our own builds, many loved this and the sig of capture, its also relevant as in the manifesto we were told
“Everything you loved about gw1” sadly this is something else untrue in the manifesto.

They couldn’t have done “everything you loved about GW1” without just remaking GW1 with prettier graphics. Because there would definitely be something left out which people liked (even if it was Kormir).

Really, from a nitpicker’s standpoint, right about there you should have walked away and realized they were never going to follow every minor comment in there to the letter.

Really i did hope it would have been more like gw1, all we got is lore.

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

chuckle

I don’t think my ranger is so bad, personally. I don’t have any issues playing ‘normally’ (by my standards of play) with a ranger. Still, I’m aware most classes still need tweaking. We’ll see how the guys doing the balancing for GW2 manage as time progresses. I’m sure balancing the skills and classes is an intricate nightmare for them. So many possibilities and variations that have to be considered for the class itself, and then additionally all of the outside influences of the other classes. I don’t envy their job at all…

Oh don’t get me wrong, I love my ranger too. But my ranger hundreds of years ago was a lot better at this whole “keep your pet in check” thing? Not to mention pretty much managing a solo kill of the Great Destroyer . . . not that it was hard to do that. But that veers off topic quite a distance.

It was a nice feature of gw1 that would could make our own builds, many loved this and the sig of capture, its also relevant as in the manifesto we were told
“Everything you loved about gw1” sadly this is something else untrue in the manifesto.

They couldn’t have done “everything you loved about GW1” without just remaking GW1 with prettier graphics. Because there would definitely be something left out which people liked (even if it was Kormir).

Really, from a nitpicker’s standpoint, right about there you should have walked away and realized they were never going to follow every minor comment in there to the letter.

Really i did hope it would have been more like gw1, all we got is lore.

To be honest? I found most of the basic framework of GW2 is exactly as I hoped it would be. The minor details and annoyances are what got me down a bit until I decided that mattered less and it was more “will I have more fun with this than I did with another game I could have bought instead?” . . .

So far finding an enjoyable way of playing Minecraft has cost me more than what it cost me to play GW2 :P

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

chuckle

I don’t think my ranger is so bad, personally. I don’t have any issues playing ‘normally’ (by my standards of play) with a ranger. Still, I’m aware most classes still need tweaking. We’ll see how the guys doing the balancing for GW2 manage as time progresses. I’m sure balancing the skills and classes is an intricate nightmare for them. So many possibilities and variations that have to be considered for the class itself, and then additionally all of the outside influences of the other classes. I don’t envy their job at all…

Oh don’t get me wrong, I love my ranger too. But my ranger hundreds of years ago was a lot better at this whole “keep your pet in check” thing? Not to mention pretty much managing a solo kill of the Great Destroyer . . . not that it was hard to do that. But that veers off topic quite a distance.

It was a nice feature of gw1 that would could make our own builds, many loved this and the sig of capture, its also relevant as in the manifesto we were told
“Everything you loved about gw1” sadly this is something else untrue in the manifesto.

They couldn’t have done “everything you loved about GW1” without just remaking GW1 with prettier graphics. Because there would definitely be something left out which people liked (even if it was Kormir).

Really, from a nitpicker’s standpoint, right about there you should have walked away and realized they were never going to follow every minor comment in there to the letter.

Really i did hope it would have been more like gw1, all we got is lore.

To be honest? I found most of the basic framework of GW2 is exactly as I hoped it would be. The minor details and annoyances are what got me down a bit until I decided that mattered less and it was more “will I have more fun with this than I did with another game I could have bought instead?” . . .

So far finding an enjoyable way of playing Minecraft has cost me more than what it cost me to play GW2 :P

Don’t get me wrong i think gw2 is a fab game, i have a lot of fun, but most of what made gw was left in gw1, we got a new game with the defining features of gw1 removed.

mesme.5028:

Don’t get me wrong i think gw2 is a fab game, i have a lot of fun, but most of what made gw was left in gw1, we got a new game with the defining features of gw1 removed.

I find it more desirable for a game to be less “exactly as the preceding game, just better” and more its own entity with the sole exception of updated re-releases. I want sequels to have their own identity as a game to play rather than just the same game.

I totally blame growing up with the Final Fantasy, King’s Quest and Dragon Warrior series for this.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dunno about you, but it’s not about grind for BiS items for me. It’s more about “how shall I disappoint my ranger forefathers today?”.

chuckle

I don’t think my ranger is so bad, personally. I don’t have any issues playing ‘normally’ (by my standards of play) with a ranger. Still, I’m aware most classes still need tweaking. We’ll see how the guys doing the balancing for GW2 manage as time progresses. I’m sure balancing the skills and classes is an intricate nightmare for them. So many possibilities and variations that have to be considered for the class itself, and then additionally all of the outside influences of the other classes. I don’t envy their job at all…

Oh don’t get me wrong, I love my ranger too. But my ranger hundreds of years ago was a lot better at this whole “keep your pet in check” thing? Not to mention pretty much managing a solo kill of the Great Destroyer . . . not that it was hard to do that. But that veers off topic quite a distance.

If there’s any part of the manifesto claims I would take issue with, it’s not the grind. It’s the lack of a decent answer to all those zones now where the DEs have entered “default failed” status. Ascalon Settlement is fallen, the dredge have a lot of territory near Sorrow’s Furnace, and Nageling has a giant problem almost all the time.

I do miss the pet management and AI from GW1…pets were just…so much smarter. I also miss the option to play with or without a pet as well.

Understood on the DE issue. Sort of sad to see all the seemingly abandoned zones. Although, I kill that giant every time I pass through by Nageling. The hubby dies repeatedly, and it takes like 10 minutes, but we manage!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

Don’t get me wrong i think gw2 is a fab game, i have a lot of fun, but most of what made gw was left in gw1, we got a new game with the defining features of gw1 removed.

I find it more desirable for a game to be less “exactly as the preceding game, just better” and more its own entity with the sole exception of updated re-releases. I want sequels to have their own identity as a game to play rather than just the same game.

I totally blame growing up with the Final Fantasy, King’s Quest and Dragon Warrior series for this.

And i totally understand that, i too loved Final Fantasy, many games are original and do well, we could look at warcraft / lol and wow, but were were told “everything you loved about gw1 put into a persistent world” they gave us the world part, it maybe sound nitpicking but there was so much uniqueness in gw1 i loved and its off the back of gw1 and the manifesto i purchased gw2.

mesme.5028:

“Everything you loved about gw1” sadly this is something else untrue in the manifesto.

The issue with this line is it is going to mean something different for everyone. It is a very opinionated phrase. What you love, I may not love and vice versa. What it boils down to is they took what they liked about GW1 and carried it over.

Yes, I liked being able to choose from a hundred skills, but the fact remains that of those numerous skills only a handful were truly viable. Here, we have a limited number of skills, true, but that should make it easier to balance. (Given time) After which, they should be able to slowly add skills to our repertoire, and they have said that new skills are coming. In the CDI, I mention that some of us would like to see skill quests return, and signets of capture as options for obtaining some of these new skills. Hopefully they will keep that in mind.

Yes, I liked dual professions, but they had so much of an issue balancing it, that I’m glad they didn’t carry it forward:

Me/N running necro skills being stronger than a N main for example.
Or how about R/Rt and N/Rt being better than Rt mains?
Rangers and Sins wielding scythes better than dervs.
The list goes on and on

I loved heroes, and I would love them for instanced content for GW2, but there are many that don’t love them as well. They don’t want to see any sort of AI hench added to the game.

Judging by the manifesto be thankful Anet do not make pharmaceuticals.

mergi.1407:

Judging by the manifesto be thankful Anet do not make pharmaceuticals.

“we found the eternal life elixir”.
and after the first deaths: ask the devs…

well, i hope that, after this bad experience, they’ll try at least to explain what they’re going to do with the game (a new manifesto? a real one)…don’t think i’ll spend any more money or time without knowing what direction it’s taking gw2.
ascended last tier? (and a decent way to acquire them…or better just improve exotics stats to be on a par with ascended) maybe i’llreinstall it.
a patch with new items and even a 90th level?
ultimate ragequit

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I did agree previously that ascended went against their previous philosophy that we should have BiS items by level 80. However, we asked for it, we brought it on ourselves. The louder voices screamed for another gear tier, and we got it. Anet simply gave the loudest voices of the playerbase exactly what they asked for,

If you go back to this forum at the time, the calls for another tier and for more vertical progression were not overwhelming. The criticism of ascended items since has been far greater.

The manifesto was actually about Guild Wars 1. In 2 they reversed all the unique and revolutionary elements that made the first so good and made another run off the mill mmo, or ‘WoW killer’ how they like to call it.

Ashen.2907:

I think you missed my point, perhaps due to missing a single word in my post. I didn’t say, “new challenges,” I said, “greater challenges.”

The distinction is important to the point I made. The character becomes more capable of overcoming tougher opposition. The character is more powerful, as can be seen by the ease with which he can now defeat opponents that would have previously challenged him. But, as is common in a game, the character moves on to challenges worthy of his new found power.

When I improve my chess game in order to be able to challenge opponents higher rated than I the progression is not illusory because I opt to play primarily opponents who are a challenge for my new level of skill.

You don’t improve your chess game by buying tougher chess pieces, you improve your knowledge of the game, your opponent’s strategies, your own skill, you know, the skills that live between your ears. This is the kind of skill progression that is far more rewarding then rehashing the same actions to get a more powerful avatar. This is one aspect that GW1 did better, something we loved about it that did not make it into GW2.

Greater challenges should require greater skill to overcome, not greater avatars.

frans.8092:

Ashen.2907:

I think you missed my point, perhaps due to missing a single word in my post. I didn’t say, “new challenges,” I said, “greater challenges.”

The distinction is important to the point I made. The character becomes more capable of overcoming tougher opposition. The character is more powerful, as can be seen by the ease with which he can now defeat opponents that would have previously challenged him. But, as is common in a game, the character moves on to challenges worthy of his new found power.

When I improve my chess game in order to be able to challenge opponents higher rated than I the progression is not illusory because I opt to play primarily opponents who are a challenge for my new level of skill.

You don’t improve your chess game by buying tougher chess pieces, you improve your knowledge of the game, your opponent’s strategies, your own skill, you know, the skills that live between your ears. This is the kind of skill progression that is far more rewarding then rehashing the same actions to get a more powerful avatar. This is one aspect that GW1 did better, something we loved about it that did not make it into GW2.

Greater challenges should require greater skill to overcome, not greater avatars.

Progression is tangibly growing in some capacity, not learning to play better.

uhm…progression….
for many players just mean a shining new tier of equipment with 2more zeros to stats every 6month…and of course a long long grindy way to obtain it.

that’s what people here are trying to make anet aware: many don’t like it xD

Kevan.8912:

uhm…progression….
for many players just mean a shining new tier of equipment with 2more zeros to stats every 6month…and of course a long long grindy way to obtain it.

that’s what people here are trying to make anet aware: many don’t like it xD

I quit EverQuest over that crap,. Go compare some of their equipment selections from various expansions and you can see how power creep set in. Worst being after Planes of Power when your “basic default armor” you normally saw people in near max level was more powerful than endgame stuff from the previous expansion.

It still isn’t as bad as Ultima Online was though. How do I mean, you might ask? Gear was almost pointless. It was all in your reflexes and timing, and your Magery skill

Destai.9603:

Progression is tangibly growing in some capacity, not learning to play better.

Self improvement, such as learning to play better, is, “growing in some capacity.”

frans.8092:

You don’t improve your chess game by buying tougher chess pieces, you improve your knowledge of the game, your opponent’s strategies, your own skill, you know, the skills that live between your ears. This is the kind of skill progression that is far more rewarding then rehashing the same actions to get a more powerful avatar. This is one aspect that GW1 did better, something we loved about it that did not make it into GW2.

Greater challenges should require greater skill to overcome, not greater avatars.

Of course. I enjoyed GW1’s approach to this very much. I was not commenting on which form of progression I prefer, but merely pointing out that gear progression is a form of progression (even if I personally dislike it).

gear progression is easier than creating innovative new content, obviously.
both for devs and for players.
grinding for it is still the easy way to keep people logged in and busy…and earn money from gems and other stuff.

yes. both are progression. but guessing which one is better is not difficult.
as players, i think we should ask for the best anet can deliver, not just obey to their economic decisions.
because it’s our time and our money.

@tobias: ehm, again other games….
our perception of grind and gear progression (and if it happens, treadmill) still remains.
i hope anet got the message, if some of the people here didn’t catch it.
there is no real discussion.
some of you are okay with game atm. the ones flaming against ascend are not.
:)
all of us explained why.

now it’s anets duty to decide which part of players will leave gw2.

Kevan.8912:

gear progression is easier than creating innovative new content, obviously.
both for devs and for players.
grinding for it is still the easy way to keep people logged in and busy…and earn money from gems and other stuff.

yes. both are progression. but guessing which one is better is not difficult.
as players, i think we should ask for the best anet can deliver, not just obey to their economic decisions.
because it’s our time and our money.

@tobias: ehm, again other games….
our perception of grind and gear progression (and if it happens, treadmill) still remains.
i hope anet got the message, if some of the people here didn’t catch it.
there is no real discussion.
some of you are okay with game atm. the ones flaming against ascend are not.
:)
all of us explained why.

now it’s anets duty to decide which part of players will leave gw2.

I guess infusion was only a matter of time, as the game opens up and we get closer to the ring of fire and perhaps the Mursaat, peeps who are not infused with ar wont be able to do that content even if its dynamic events, it’s not so much ascended i dislike more the way we obtain it by tedious and expensive time gated crafting, i don’t want or need better stats as such (Thou i need ar for high lvl fracts), we may find in time all will need infusions with agony resist, when and if this happens it may not be a choice as such for peeps to leave, just the last straw.

mesme.5028:

I guess infusion was only a matter of time, as the game opens up and we get closer to the ring of fire and perhaps the Mursaat, peeps who are not infused with ar wont be able to do that content even if its dynamic events, it’s not so much ascended i dislike more the way we obtain it by tedious and expensive time gated crafting, i don’t want or need better stats as such (Thou i need ar for high lvl fracts), we may find in time all will need infusions with agony resist, when and if this happens it may not be a choice as such for peeps to leave, just the last straw.

It is extremely unlikely that we will ever be forced to get AR for open-world encounters.

lordkrall.7241:

mesme.5028:

I guess infusion was only a matter of time, as the game opens up and we get closer to the ring of fire and perhaps the Mursaat, peeps who are not infused with ar wont be able to do that content even if its dynamic events, it’s not so much ascended i dislike more the way we obtain it by tedious and expensive time gated crafting, i don’t want or need better stats as such (Thou i need ar for high lvl fracts), we may find in time all will need infusions with agony resist, when and if this happens it may not be a choice as such for peeps to leave, just the last straw.

It is extremely unlikely that we will ever be forced to get AR for open-world encounters.

but it’s very likely there will be infusion progression, and instanced necessity for BiS items and AR.
and it’s enough for some more people to leave, especially if don’t already like ascended at this moment.

edit: and especially for ones who initially bought the game because anet made them think there wouldn’t be nothing like that

lordkrall.7241:

mesme.5028:

I guess infusion was only a matter of time, as the game opens up and we get closer to the ring of fire and perhaps the Mursaat, peeps who are not infused with ar wont be able to do that content even if its dynamic events, it’s not so much ascended i dislike more the way we obtain it by tedious and expensive time gated crafting, i don’t want or need better stats as such (Thou i need ar for high lvl fracts), we may find in time all will need infusions with agony resist, when and if this happens it may not be a choice as such for peeps to leave, just the last straw.

It is extremely unlikely that we will ever be forced to get AR for open-world encounters.

When we reach the ring of fire i find it extremely unlikely we wont face the Mursaat again, it would be awful if we never encountered them there, they were a formidable foe, ones i loved engaging, i just can’t imagine gw without them and i hope we face them again.

Kevan.8912:

but it’s very likely there will be infusion progression, and instanced necessity for BiS items and AR.
and it’s enough for some more people to leave, especially if don’t already like ascended at this moment.

edit: and especially for ones who initially bought the game because anet made them think there wouldn’t be nothing like that

I doubt they will make another dungeons that is not Fractals that would “require” AR. They might of course, but it is quite unlikely.

They will of course require higher levels of AR when they increase the level cap of Fractals, but that isn’t really much of an issue seeing as you can already see all content at lvl 1.

mesme.5028:

When we reach the ring of fire i find it extremely unlikely we wont face the Mursaat again, it would be awful if we never encountered them there, they were a formidable foe, ones i loved engaging, i just can’t imagine gw without them and i hope we face them again.

You are aware of that as far as we know there is currently only a single Mursaat left alive right? And the fact that they didn’t really come from the Ring of Fire, but rather built bases there in order to stop the Flameseeker Prophecy?

lordkrall.7241:

Kevan.8912:

but it’s very likely there will be infusion progression, and instanced necessity for BiS items and AR.
and it’s enough for some more people to leave, especially if don’t already like ascended at this moment.

edit: and especially for ones who initially bought the game because anet made them think there wouldn’t be nothing like that

I doubt they will make another dungeons that is not Fractals that would “require” AR. They might of course, but it is quite unlikely.

They will of course require higher levels of AR when they increase the level cap of Fractals, but that isn’t really much of an issue seeing as you can already see all content at lvl 1.

mesme.5028:

When we reach the ring of fire i find it extremely unlikely we wont face the Mursaat again, it would be awful if we never encountered them there, they were a formidable foe, ones i loved engaging, i just can’t imagine gw without them and i hope we face them again.

You are aware of that as far as we know there is currently only a single Mursaat left alive right? And the fact that they didn’t really come from the Ring of Fire, but rather built bases there in order to stop the Flameseeker Prophecy?

It’s said if any more Mursaat is left is still unknown, and yes im aware of glint’s flame seeker prophecy.

And yet you seem to assume that the Ring of Fire would be swarming with Mursaat?

There is no reason for the Mursaat (if they are still active) to float around on RoF seeing as the prophecy is already fulfilled.

lordkrall.7241:

And yet you seem to assume that the Ring of Fire would be swarming with Mursaat?

There is no reason for the Mursaat (if they are still active) to float around on RoF seeing as the prophecy is already fulfilled.

It’s as good a place as any for them to regroup and stay hidden, thou as we make our way towards the rof, i find it unlikely we wont see them again.

No, it is a rather stupid place for them if they want to stay hidden.
It would be much more logical for them to regroup at Isles of Janthir, from where they came.

Or simply “phase out”, like they used to avoid the Elder Dragons during their previous rise.

I believe the dog ate the manifesto.

lordkrall.7241:

No, it is a rather stupid place for them if they want to stay hidden.
It would be much more logical for them to regroup at Isles of Janthir, from where they came.

Or simply “phase out”, like they used to avoid the Elder Dragons during their previous rise.

Isles would be a logical place to chase down any remaining, where as rof where they met their doom would be more logical as revenge is a powerful force.

Ceridwen.6703:

I believe the dog ate the manifesto.

You made me laugh:).

Slightly derailed (or not) either way if we met the Mursaat again infusion would be a requirement, and perhaps see something i loved about gw1 the Mursaat.

The manifesto was released in like 2010 right? The game wasn’t even released until 2012. The game went through changes between beta and release, and the game has made significant changes since release. Therefore, the manifesto is no longer applicable to the game. The manifesto was their intention for the game in 2010. We are now in 2014 and I expect more changes to come. 2 years from now the game could be totally different from today’s version.

Lynne.8416:

The manifesto was released in like 2010 right? The game wasn’t even released until 2012. The game went through changes between beta and release, and the game has made significant changes since release. Therefore, the manifesto is no longer applicable to the game. The manifesto was their intention for the game in 2010. We are now in 2014 and I expect more changes to come. 2 years from now the game could be totally different from today’s version.

mmmmh, no.
alpha/beta changes…is more about technical issues of a game, servers, or new maps, or little (not that little, but not substantial) changes, like timers cooldowns interface AI etc

manifesto is more than it: it’s the “philosophy” behind a game. it’s also about the players’ subpopulation it is advertised for.
it a “hey, we don’t know exactly how many races there will be, or if asura will be uglier than now, but be sure we have these ideas in mind. if you think the same way, follow us”
in fact, they didn’t talk of “concrete” features of the game.
it’s the “guidelines” that are before programming.

so, this is why the "betrayal " they committed is so solemn.
it’s not just a number in a new item. or just a few more hours of game.
it’s both the introduction of heavy grind and gear progression in the same time.
and for me and many others, these (absence of) 2ideals were the only (or nearly it) reasons to buy it instead of a bunch of other mmos.
they did their initial sells just because they guaranteed no grind and no treadmill.

so, there is no excuse. at all

Things change. Namely change what you have to, to bring in the money.

“Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.”
-Colin Johanson