Guild Wars 2

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

WRay.2391:

After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.

Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?

Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.

Forces. Sheesh.

Emphasized the initial post to aide with reading comprehension.

Emphasizing a falsehood doesn’t make it magically true.

Feelings aren’t true or false, they are feelings.

Obviously, if you look at the forums, there are many people who feel as if the have to get ascended gear, or who feel dissatisfied until they get ascended gear. I know you don’t HAVE to have it. But you don’t HAVE to play the game. And you certainly shouldn’t play a game that makes you feel second class.

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

WRay.2391:

After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.

Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?

Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.

Forces. Sheesh.

Emphasized the initial post to aide with reading comprehension.

Emphasizing a falsehood doesn’t make it magically true.

Feelings aren’t true or false, they are feelings.

Obviously, if you look at the forums, there are many people who feel as if the have to get ascended gear, or who feel dissatisfied until they get ascended gear. I know you don’t HAVE to have it. But you don’t HAVE to play the game. And you certainly shouldn’t play a game that makes you feel second class.

My apologies then, I was thinking factually as opposed to feelingsy.

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

WRay.2391:

After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.

Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?

Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.

Forces. Sheesh.

Emphasized the initial post to aide with reading comprehension.

Emphasizing a falsehood doesn’t make it magically true.

And calling something a falsehood because you don’t agree with it, doesn’t automatically make it a falsehood.

Even though players don’t need Ascended gear (hell, they don’t need Exotic for most content in the game), They feel like they do need it because it makes that that tiny bit more powerful than they did before. So, until those players spend the large amount of time to get the ascended gear, they will feel like second class citizens, regardless of reality saying they need it or not.

Have you seen the masses clamoring for Iphones for the last Decade? The Iphone is no better than anything Samsung comes up with, but people still feel like they are inferior phones. Its the same thing here.

VOLKON.1290:

WRay.2391:

After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.

Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?

Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.

Forces. Sheesh.

Being “forced by a psychological desire” is closer to the definition of mental illness than it is to ‘grind’. Some people are saying that certain content (high level fractals for instance) is impossible now without ascended armor & weapons, even though nothing has changed in fractals relating to AR since before those ascended items were introduced. It’s simply an illogical perception that in reality isn’t ‘forcing’ anyone to do anything, and certainly not locking anyone out of any content of the game.

No content is locked due to gear checks, just as before and just as was implied by the manifesto.

Wasbunny.6531:

VOLKON.1290:

WRay.2391:

After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.

Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?

Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.

Forces. Sheesh.

Being “forced by a psychological desire” is closer to the definition of mental illness than it is to ‘grind’. Some people are saying that certain content (high level fractals for instance) is impossible now without ascended armor & weapons, even though nothing has changed in fractals relating to AR since before those ascended items were introduced. It’s simply an illogical perception that in reality isn’t ‘forcing’ anyone to do anything, and certainly not locking anyone out of any content of the game.

No content is locked due to gear checks, just as before and just as was implied by the manifesto.

Sure. We’re all mentally ill.

Yes this game does force you to acquire ascended gear to participate in Fractals.

Bagel.4598:

Yes this game does force you to acquire ascended gear to participate in Fractals.

High level Fractals, due to Agony. Low level, “entry level” if you prefer, you don’t need Ascended Gear. Unless that’s changed since I got bored with the lack of variety in Fractals.

The argument against this comment I’m replying to is, by the way: “You can still do the entry level Fractals 1-10 with no Ascended and thus no Agony Resist. Thus you can see the content without actually requiring the gear you find it difficult to acquire. It does however mean you won’t be getting further, but as most of the rewards past that are cosmetic or more Ascended stuff, perhaps it is not really necessary to ‘enjoy’ Fractals.”

I still don’t enjoy Fractals, primarily because it was almost always the Swamp Fractal which killed all momentum and patience.

Wasbunny.6531:

Being “forced by a psychological desire” is closer to the definition of mental illness than it is to ‘grind’.

im’m sure this is far closer to a “mental illness”:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_addiction
http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Internet%20Gaming%20Disorder%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

spending the hours required for getting all the mats and gold required to fully equip one or more characters in little time (maybe i’m wrong, but threshold was about 24hrs a week) probably is a major criterion to diagnose it.
one criterion is not enough to diagnose it though, but it’s one of many.

@Tobias.
BiS = need it. no escape from it.
if ascended doesn’t count at all, why to introduce it?
stats are relevant also outside the fractals.
so, please, if you don’t feel that you need to use them, fine.
but don’t try to teach ppl how to feel about it.
its purpose is to be a need and the way to convince ppl to grind for them is exactly that increase of stats you consider subtle.
it is demonstrated by the fact that only cosmetic upgrade ( if we trust all supporters’ words) would not be enough for making people login, spend time and money on them.
only a gear stats progression could do it.
so, how can it be important only for those who are supposed to care about it (and asked for it), and be unnecessary for those who don’t like them (and are now flaming against it)?

choose one faction.
ascended are worthless, or ascended are worth.
or: just admit that it depends on one’s needs, and so it’s a waste of time, and incoherent, trying to convince ppl who hate them to ignore their existence

i think it’s quite obvious.

Kevan.8912:

@Tobias.

Here we go again:

BiS = need it. no escape from it.

Don’t need it, don’t want it, see no point to it beyond riding the bleeding edge of stats. Which won’t help me anyway. Escaped it! Where’s my achievement points?

if ascended doesn’t count at all, why to introduce it?

Don’t know, and not the person who can answer that question. Stop asking me to make conjectures on other peoples’ motives when you already question them (veracity and motive) in the first place.

stats are relevant also outside the fractals.

Not relevant in sPvP, unnecessary in PvE when it’s far easier to throw more people at something, and WvW is such a weird hybrid it’s difficult to judge just how effective it is.

Though if they made Ascended-quality arrow carts . . .

so, please, if you don’t feel that you need to use them, fine.
but don’t try to teach ppl how to feel about it.

That’s not what I’m trying to do here, what I’m trying to do is . . . once more . . . point out this is a meaningless chase meant for those who want something to chase, and it was said to be a “more long term goal”. It’s not required, it’s not necessary, and yet people keep using the word “forced”.

I would like, but am unlikely to get, people to admit it’s not a fault of the game they feel forced to get the shinies, but in their method. I could care less about it being “right” or “wrong”. My “right” way of playing is to play the second most useless ranger build which exists and use pets which don’t make sense. To very very many others (and I’ve got screenshots somewhere archived to prove so) it’s intolerably “wrong”.

its purpose is to be a need and the way to convince ppl to grind for them is exactly that increase of stats you consider subtle.
it is demonstrated by the fact that only cosmetic upgrade ( if we trust all supporters’ words) would not be enough for making people login, spend time and money on them.
only a gear stats progression could do it.

Careful there with the absolute statements.

I support this game by playing it . . . albeit very rarely due to network instability currently, and the computer I normally use having developed post-Xmas issues . . . but I don’t support ALL the decisions the company makes, nor blindly assume their choices are the best.

I expect there are a number of people who were playing this game craving something long-term to build towards for prestige and Legendaries just didn’t fit the bill . . . especially since you could sell them on Black Lion. (I seem to recall this was somewhat of a big deal to people.)

So I suspect Ascended was made as a personal goal for your characters to achieve which could not be purchased outright and would require an investment of time to earn. In short, you wanted to wear the pink named gear, you had to put the time into earning it.

. . . and boy, it failed. Spectacularly. Not only have people pretty much responded with “god that’s ugly” (not what you want to hear when cosmetics are a big reason to go seeking stuff), people have gotten up in arms about “it’s in the game now I have to have it” and the time investment being so incredible . . .

We reach that whole “I am forced to grind for this” statement. Which is where the big part of this failure of execution is seated.

so, how can it be important only for those who are supposed to care about it (and asked for it), and be unnecessary for those who don’t like them (and are now flaming against it)?

How can people care so intensely about WvW standings they want to bounce people who are interested more in “Da Karma Train” than PPT coexist with those who just want to do it for the challenge of good fights? Or coexist with those who couldn’t give a skritt’s left butt cheek if WvW ceased to exist at all?

choose one faction.
ascended are worthless, or ascended are worth.
or: just admit that it depends on one’s needs, and so it’s a waste of time, and incoherent, trying to convince ppl who hate them to ignore their existence

I like Kurzick as a faction. Sorry, I just have a thing for petrified wood forests, not to mention there was definitely a dislike for Irukandji floating around making things difficult. Sure it meant putting up with dredge but they usually weren’t an issue.

If you want me to pick a predetermined philosophy, you really need to stop laying into me for wanting people to own up on the source of their “need”. You have just tried to tell me what I should be thinking.

i think it’s quite obvious.

It is. I don’t care who hates Ascended with the fiery passion of Primordius during mating season. I care if the “why” is a load of centaur droppings and they want to tell me it’s Vabbian Delight.

Mars.6319:

Behellagh.1468:

Mars.6319:

Colin Johanson spoke about ANet’s manifesto leading up to and during GW2’s beta program in early 2012.

In June 2012 Nexon invested in NCSoft and became NCSoft’s largest shareholder.

Around this time Crystin Cox, perhaps best known for her work at Nexon with Maplestory’s cash shop, became GW2’s monetization manager.

Is GW2 becoming more like GW1 or Maplestory?

Wrong! She was hired months (3/12) before Nexon purchase their share in NCSOFT (6/12) which was months before the game shipped. So she’s been in charge of the store since before the game went live.

The question you all should be asking is would it be worse, whatever slight you feel the Gem Store is doing to you or what it would be like if the exchange didn’t exist?. If everyone was forced to spend cash to get anything. How many $10 bank slots or $7.50 character slots would you have bought? or ~$1 keys? or $5-10 armor or city outfits?

That’s part of the problem. Imagine you’re Ms Cox, hired away from Nexon to run a cash shop and on day one they tell you players can buy items from the cash shop with in game currency. Basically that throws everything, every trick you know in running a true cash shop out the window. You now can’t make the items too cheap because then everyone will just use in game currency. But you are still stuck with not making them too expensive because then few will be able to buy it. She had to figure out new ways to motivate players into buying gems with cash.

Right now it looks like these little bursts of desirable items nearly all at once to deplete players gold reserves so they are forced to buy gems is the current strategy.

I didn’t mean to lay the blame solely on Ms Cox, I was just pointing out that Nexon had a huge influence on ANet in 2012… so much so that ANet hired a former Nexon employee to run their cash shop just 3 months before Nexon became the largest share holder of NCSoft stock… which doesn’t seem entirely coincidental.

GW2 is playable without buying gems and ANet has done a great job of providing us with new content. There are hundreds of MMOs out there and GW2 is my favorite of them all so ANet must be doing something right. Just the same I’m disappointed in various things like the way legendary weapons and ascended gear has been handled… as well as things like the infinite continue coin during the SAB fiasco… ugh. I’m also weary of the coming sPvP changes as the removal of the more or less worthless Glory while sPvP transitions to Gold means the coming changes will likely be opened up to monetization via Gem conversions.

I get that ANet needs to make money and don’t begrudge them that but the current drive to make buying gold via Gems desirable by making the acquisition of top tier gear painfully slow with the option of cashing out for instant gratification is a huge letdown.

You missed the point. She was hired BEFORE Nexon had any influence on NCSOFT, which assumes of course they have any influence at all even now. They have no seats on the board, and while owning 15% of the outstanding shares of a company is impressive, it doesn’t mean you can interfere in day to day operations or even influence a company’s direction in the slightest, all they can do is sell it. BTW, so far the value of the stock they own is down by $36-37 million since they bought it so it’s unlikely Nexon will sell it anytime soon.

The whole “Nexon is pulling ANet’s strings” bit is getting old and drifts into tinfoil hat territory. As for coincidence, GW2 will be cash shop based for month to month income. Is it that hard to imagine that in ANet’s position you would go after someone who worked at a company whose entire business is built around the cash shop? And why not go after someone at the biggest of those companies?

VOLKON.1290:

My apologies then, I was thinking factually as opposed to feelingsy.

I’m still awaiting your response to the points I brought up in my previous post. You can respond factually (logically), or you can respond “feelingsy” (emotionally). But to not respond at all makes you look like you’re ducking an argument that blows holes in pretty much everything you’ve said in defense of ArenaNet.

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

WRay.2391:

After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.

Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?

Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.

Forces. Sheesh.

Emphasized the initial post to aide with reading comprehension.

Emphasizing a falsehood doesn’t make it magically true.

Feelings aren’t true or false, they are feelings.

Obviously, if you look at the forums, there are many people who feel as if the have to get ascended gear, or who feel dissatisfied until they get ascended gear. I know you don’t HAVE to have it. But you don’t HAVE to play the game. And you certainly shouldn’t play a game that makes you feel second class.

My apologies then, I was thinking factually as opposed to feelingsy.

LOL So this game is your second job so you don’t have feeling about it ? TBH I will even leave my job if I will stop having fun doing it.

• I bought a product where BiS item is meant to be a normal thing when you reach 80. It was true and it was designed like this. ANED didn’t admit that manifesto changed so I assume now ascended should be a normal item for lvl 80. Is it normal logical chain ? What is a reason for want/need conversation ? * Or ANET sold one product and then changed it to another. In this case it’s a good approach to propose money back to unsatisfied players.

You don’t need exotics to do most of the activities. Are you using them though ? My bet is ‘yes’. Still nobody forces you. It’s a matter of convenience.

Grind can be considered mental disease if you want to talk about diseases. You spend tons of your time like a robot to get something that is meant to be easy to get. And you are happy about it. I’m currently just spending less time in this game in general, so I assume I’m not that bad.

I have to wonder if car manufacturers regularly get hounded over the contents of a 5 year old commercial.

Nike.2631:

I have to wonder if car manufacturers regularly get hounded over the contents of a 5 year old commercial.

Maybe over the Toyota Hilux? I mean, that thing got some notice . . .

Behellagh.1468:

It’s not on the main page. Yes it’s under Media/Videos. The very first video since it’s 3 years old.

Ok, can you find me all the other explanation they should have posted regarding the Manifesto in the website, please?

Vayne.8563:

I don’t think this game is going to evolve into a typical MMO. I think that Anet has made strides to compromise, because the original game, which I loved, wasn’t “sticky” enough. People really could just walk away and not come back.

Now, with the achievements and the living story, the game has gotten a new type of stickiness, something proven to keep a percentage of people. My guess is enough to fund the game.

Which means Anet won’t have to go the route of gear progression anymore, because they found another route to stickiness.

They can hold and on gain more players now and new players coming in will not have the changes to deal with that older players saw as a betrayal.

I think what you’ll see is vertical content tempered by a small power curve that doesn’t force you to constantly have “best in slot” to accomplish everything the game has to offer.

What I mean by that is, you’re GOING to see a level cap increase. You’re going to see increasingly powerful stats on gear to go with it. But the scaling will be shallow and the difficulty will be scaled to say the second or third-highest tier rather than the “best in slot.”

You’ll likely see, for example, Legendary weapons scale up to whatever the highest tier at your available level is, or ways to “level up” your gear rather than completely grind out new ones.

There will be a clear vertical stat progression, but you won’t HAVE to pursue the best to complete the content unless you absolutely want to. Will that placate both sides of their player base? I have no clue, but that’s my prognostication of what is going to happen.

Kevan.8912:

snip
too much people who want even more grinding.
because the typical mmo-nerd says: “if i play more hours than you, i’ll have better equip than you…and if u want to be competitive, just play more”
that’s the golden rule of mmo world.
many people can’t play 200h only for a skin. they want a carrot on a stick.
or a gear treadmill. a concrete advantage over “n00bs” playing 2-3times a week.
snip

Ok, I LOLed.

If they are so much better (or at least, non-n00bs) then they don’t need the better gear.

I think Volkon nailed it. When Anet said “our game isn’t about preparing to have fun”, it wasn’t talking about end game gear grind.

It was talking about the grind in most MMOs to get to max level so you could do the cool stuff.

But most of the cool stuff in this game you can do before you hit max level, with the exception of a few max level dungeons. Even Fractals can be run by lower level characters.

There aren’t many games that have dragons like the Shatterer in non-max level zones.

For all the people talking about how Anet promoted this game, when Colin was asked about the comments, he used the Shadow Behemoth as an example of how you don’t prepare to have fun. We have encounters like this in the first zone and throughout the game.

People talk about there not really being an “end game” in Guild Wars 2, and that’s very much part of the philosophy.

So no, it didn’t change, not from what was said in the manifesto anyway.

And Eric Flannum did say there would be things for people to grind for for those who enjoyed that play style. How come no one ever brings that up?

People chose to see vertical progression as something the manifesto talked about. I just watched it. I didn’t see vertical progression.

Hell, vertical progress already existed in the game at launch and no one said a word. Exotic 80th level gear is a tier of gear higher than rare 80th level gear. That’s vertical progression.

So no one can say the game didn’t launch with vertical progression.

Now, Anet did make comments about casually obtaining the highest tier of gear. That’s 100% true.

But that doesn’t have anything to do with the manifesto video. And not one person in this thread has given any evidence that it has.

Bagel.4598:

Yes this game does force you to acquire ascended gear to participate in Fractals.

This game forces to to acquire ascended gear to do only the absolute highest level fractals, which were themselves introduced for people who wanted to play that play style of grinding.

Anet had once said you can play the way you want to play. Grinders needed something to do too.

But what this game does that other MMOs, for the most part, don’t, is allow you to experience ALL the fractals, without any ascended gear at all. Every fractal.

And the ascended gear you need to play all the way to level 39 can be gotten by running the fractals themselves, so it’s self contained.

It’s a compromise that I think it perfectly acceptable. It’s not like you can’t see the content. It’s not even like you can’t replay the lower levels without ascended gear.

Valanga.5942:

Behellagh.1468:

It’s not on the main page. Yes it’s under Media/Videos. The very first video since it’s 3 years old.

Ok, can you find me all the other explanation they should have posted regarding the Manifesto in the website, please?

No because I’ve never even heard about or seen the manifesto until I stumbled upon the first of many threads shouting “they lied to us” about it. And I don’t have the time to either watch all those other videos that were posted after it or search for the posted interviews at MMO news sites where they did, in a matter of days, clarify certain aspects of the manifesto. I think Vayne has links to it.

That’s the problem with having a concise presentation, details get left on the cutting room floor and generalities inserted to save on time. Then you have a bit of marketing fluff tossed in. It’s not an attempt to deceive but simply to fit the general point into the time allotted. I’m sure the developers didn’t think so many players would hold them aloft like some kind of Ten Commandments instead of “here’s the outline of how we are going to make this game different”.

Honestly, the Manifesto crowd is really starting to act as some kind of fringe sect declaring that they are the true believers while all others our heretics, repeatedly beating the rest of us over the heads with it. The games been out for over a year. You got what they delivered. It’s not going to change all that much in the future. Let it go. It will never be as complex as Guild Wars in terms of traits. It will never have the standard MMO trinity. It will never have raids that reward BIS items to a few so you have to run them daily in the hopes you will get all the correct items dropped on you.

If you don’t like it, leave. If you wanted it to be like the original Guild Wars, that’s still up and running. Go back to it. I’m sorry that you felt deceived but most people either learn to accept or move on. Then don’t camp and bring up ancient history (in computer terms) thinking it’ll make a difference at best or dissuade others at worse. You are all acting like some ex who shows up on your dates to tell your new interest how terrible you are. It’s aggravating seeing this topic brought up week after week in one form or another.

chemiclord.3978:

Will that placate both sides of their player base?

i think that on one hand, casuals feel betrayed by the “misinterpreted manifesto” (as many of you think), and on the other, real pro-core-nolife players feel that it’s too much grind for a “non mandatory” equipment (not according mho).
both of them seem to be unsatisfied.

all this posts mean that a lot of people still love this game.
but don’t know what % will play in a few months. but i fear not so much.
i hope not so much. because only a massive desertion may rise anet attention.
of course not our little flame wars on the forum, ignored by mods and devs.

Behellagh.1468:

snip
I’m sure the developers didn’t think so many players would hold them [“manifesto”] aloft like some kind of Ten Commandments instead of “here’s the outline of how we are going to make this game different”.

Honestly, the Manifesto crowd is really starting to act as some kind of fringe sect declaring that they are the true believers while all others our heretics, repeatedly beating the rest of us over the heads with it.
snip

If you don’t like it, leave. If you wanted it to be like the original Guild Wars, that’s still up and running. Go back to it. I’m sorry that you felt deceived but most people either learn to accept or move on. Then don’t camp and bring up ancient history (in computer terms) thinking it’ll make a difference at best or dissuade others at worse. You are all acting like some ex who shows up on your dates to tell your new interest how terrible you are. It’s aggravating seeing this topic brought up week after week in one form or another.

Well said. Bravo!

The “manifesto” kiddies should end their tantrum which was based on make-believe anyway.

Vayne.8563:

I think Volkon nailed it. When Anet said “our game isn’t about preparing to have fun”, it wasn’t talking about end game gear grind.

It was talking about the grind in most MMOs to get to max level so you could do the cool stuff.

But most of the cool stuff in this game you can do before you hit max level, with the exception of a few max level dungeons. Even Fractals can be run by lower level characters.

There aren’t many games that have dragons like the Shatterer in non-max level zones.

For all the people talking about how Anet promoted this game, when Colin was asked about the comments, he used the Shadow Behemoth as an example of how you don’t prepare to have fun. We have encounters like this in the first zone and throughout the game.

People talk about there not really being an “end game” in Guild Wars 2, and that’s very much part of the philosophy.

So no, it didn’t change, not from what was said in the manifesto anyway.

And Eric Flannum did say there would be things for people to grind for for those who enjoyed that play style. How come no one ever brings that up?

People chose to see vertical progression as something the manifesto talked about. I just watched it. I didn’t see vertical progression.

Hell, vertical progress already existed in the game at launch and no one said a word. Exotic 80th level gear is a tier of gear higher than rare 80th level gear. That’s vertical progression.

So no one can say the game didn’t launch with vertical progression.

Now, Anet did make comments about casually obtaining the highest tier of gear. That’s 100% true.

But that doesn’t have anything to do with the manifesto video. And not one person in this thread has given any evidence that it has.

^ So much this.

If ascended gear had been in the game since day one, nobody would have given it a second thought. People wanted “more” and asked for “it.” They got “it,” and now they’re complaining about the means to get “it.”

There is nothing in this game that is locked if you don’t have ascended gear. Yes, there are things that are immensely easier with it, but if I want to run fractals as high as I possibly can, there is nothing that pops up on my screen that says “Sorry, you don’t have the right gear so you can’t be in here.”

It’s the players that are requiring it. How many LFG have you seen that put restrictions on the players? How many times have you seen “LFG, LVL80 Asc.only?”

Again, it’s not the game that requires it. It’s the players.

Ashabhi.1365:

If ascended gear had been in the game since day one, nobody would have given it a second thought. People wanted “more” and asked for “it.” They got “it,” and now they’re complaining about the means to get “it.”

There is nothing in this game that is locked if you don’t have ascended gear. Yes, there are things that are immensely easier with it, but if I want to run fractals as high as I possibly can, there is nothing that pops up on my screen that says “Sorry, you don’t have the right gear so you can’t be in here.”

It’s the players that are requiring it. How many LFG have you seen that put restrictions on the players? How many times have you seen “LFG, LVL80 Asc.only?”

Again, it’s not the game that requires it. It’s the players.

Well, SOME people asked for “more.” SOME people were absolutely, violently opposed to “more.” What that second group is having a hard time understanding why Arena.net listened to that first group and not the second.

Sure, the obvious answer is “money.” Of course it is. Arena.net is a company. It’s their job to make money. And a lot of these GW1 veterans feel betrayed because they had felt that the relationship was something more. Arena.net used to understand them, man… now they don’t. It must be because all the cool people left… wait no… it’s because Nexon holds shares… no… it’s because they got greedy… wait…

I do agree that the problem is more players than developers, though. MMO players (hell, people in general really) are conditioned to certain things, and they summarily reject kitten near anything that changes what they are accustomed to. EVERY MMO that has tried to “change the game” has either failed miserably or changed to fit the “MMO meta” if you will.

There’s only so much you can change how people play their games before they reject it. Arena.net made their bed when they decided to “go big” with GW2 rather than make another game that appealed to the niche they had already carved for themselves, and that vision has to be compromised because the larger audience they need said, “Kitten that! Gimme more of what I’m used to!”

And through it all, I DO think they’re still trying to cling to as much of their original “manifesto” as they can. The Living Story and constant champion and world boss adjustments are attempts to drag players by their nose to lower level areas that players would otherwise not have anything to do with because they are “low level” zones. I don’t think it’s an accident that Ascended crafting has you going to zones that aren’t max level to get what you need (outside of the TP, at any rate).

They’re adding new tiers of gear, but scale content (outside of less than a handful of circumstances) where that new level of gear is needed. They know they have to cater to those who want the BIG NUMBERS, but at the same time, not create content that people have to chase said BIG NUMBERS to complete it.

I dunno if it’s working as well as they hoped (the forums are always a terrible gauge of overall player sentiment after all), but they seem to think it’s done the job well enough.

Subdue.5479:

Six pages of whining and not a single person, including the OP, has come up with a single thing in this game that requires ascended gear. Who would have guessed?

Competitive play in small groups in WvW requires it. When skill levels are similar, gear quality determines the outcome.

Character completeness requires it.

That these things don’t hold special weight for you doesn’t mean they don’t impact the experience of many, many players.

What I don’t understand is why so many people hide behind the ‘you don’t need it’ excuse.
You don’t need ANYTHING in this game. It’s a game.

Still, this does not in any way change the fact that the ideal of BIS being easy and no grindy to acquire was thrown out of the window.

Needed or not, it is the BIS and the thing that any RPG gamer aspires to have. And to have it you better wait for years or join the champion train (or any other intensive farm activity of your choice). What a nice thing!

Bagel.4598:

Yes this game does force you to acquire ascended gear to participate in Fractals.

I’ll just step in and point out a word that’s being thrown around, in my opinion, a bit too freely:

‘Forced’.

Nobody is ‘forcing’ you to do anything. You’re not ‘forced’ to run Fractals if you don’t want to. You’re not ‘forced’ to hunt for Ascended gear if you feel the effort isn’t worth the reward.

You may want Ascended gear; if you do, you’ll have to run Fractals to get it. That may seem an annoyance, but you are not, at any point, forced to run Fractals — or do anything at all — if you feel that it’s not worth your time.

Galrenmar.7025:

Bagel.4598:

Yes this game does force you to acquire ascended gear to participate in Fractals.

I’ll just step in and point out a word that’s being thrown around, in my opinion, a bit too freely:

‘Forced’.

Nobody is ‘forcing’ you to do anything. You’re not ‘forced’ to run Fractals if you don’t want to. You’re not ‘forced’ to hunt for Ascended gear if you feel the effort isn’t worth the reward.

You may want Ascended gear; if you do, you’ll have to run Fractals to get it. That may seem an annoyance, but you are not, at any point, forced to run Fractals — or do anything at all — if you feel that it’s not worth your time.

Careful with that semantic loophole, friend. It’s not appreciated since it’s loved to be met with a rebuttal of “but I don’t HAVE to play the game either” or other such extensions of “forced/have”.

It’s thrown around because people feel forced, rather than being forced. The very existence of Ascended demands they chase after it, for whatever reasons they choose to name, or choose to keep to themselves. The point is, they feel they need it.

But I offer a deal: I’ll stop trying to browbeat them over it as soon as the ones who say they have to have it can bring themselves to admit it’s unnecessary to do any PvE content outside of Fractals, and has no impact on sPvP. Desired, but not necessary.

Galrenmar.7025:

Bagel.4598:

Yes this game does force you to acquire ascended gear to participate in Fractals.

I’ll just step in and point out a word that’s being thrown around, in my opinion, a bit too freely:

‘Forced’.

Nobody is ‘forcing’ you to do anything. You’re not ‘forced’ to run Fractals if you don’t want to. You’re not ‘forced’ to hunt for Ascended gear if you feel the effort isn’t worth the reward.

You may want Ascended gear; if you do, you’ll have to run Fractals to get it. That may seem an annoyance, but you are not, at any point, forced to run Fractals — or do anything at all — if you feel that it’s not worth your time.

First of all this is not about being forced to do Fractals FOR ascended gear, this is about being forced to have ascended gear to get higher in to Fractals.
We could all get literal and dissect each others posts in this thread until the cows come home, or we could understand what is meant when someone is using a word in context.
If I want to play an area of the game for a specific reward that I desire and to do that I have to acquire a certain item or items, it becomes a requirement for me to get it.
It’s not a you can get ascended and do a level 49 Fractal and do better, or you can stick entirely with exotics and still do it with less effect.
At level 49, I have to have some sort of ascended item(s) to get the agony resistance needed to physically live.
Hence to play that difficulty and area of the game I am being forced to get ascended gear.
Which is against their own words of “By level 80 everyone should have the highest spec’d gear possible”.
Either implying
A) Everyone should have every piece of Ascended equipment (which is ridiculous expectaion, or
B) Ok we kittened up and put a bit of a vertical stat grind in here that you are actually going to need if you want to progress in your horizontal aesthetic grind of Fractal weapon skins.

It’s the same as the PvP community who rightfully complained that they couldn’t acquire Legendary skins through PvE alone, they are forced to do PvE if they want that exclusive content, and lo behold a update of PvP is on the horizon to fix this issue.
Why? Because it’s not right and Anet are aware of that.

Behellagh.1468:

You missed the point. She was hired BEFORE Nexon had any influence on NCSOFT, which assumes of course they have any influence at all even now.

Seriously, man.. $700 MILLION DOLLARS investment within 3 months of her hiring and Nexon has no say in what goes on? You’d have an easier time convincing me that pigs can actually fly.

If GW2 were GW1 but better then sure, you’d have something to fall back on… but GW2 is more like Maplestory than GW1.

Mars.6319:

Seriously, man.. $700 MILLION DOLLARS investment within 3 months of her hiring and Nexon has no say in what goes on? You’d have an easier time convincing me that pigs can actually fly.

One word. Trebuchet.

Also, it should be noted you have no idea if they have no say, or not, and they probably can’t straight tell you one way or the other due to it being an internal matter. Though at this point it’s like running up to someone and asking them if their spouse has stopped beating them yet.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mars.6319:

Seriously, man.. $700 MILLION DOLLARS investment within 3 months of her hiring and Nexon has no say in what goes on? You’d have an easier time convincing me that pigs can actually fly.

One word. Trebuchet.

Also, it should be noted you have no idea if they have no say, or not, and they probably can’t straight tell you one way or the other due to it being an internal matter. Though at this point it’s like running up to someone and asking them if their spouse has stopped beating them yet.

Ah, my bad, so Nexon invested so much money into NCSoft that they became NCSoft’s largest shareholder but didn’t exercise any power to influence NCSoft’s games. They were just like, “HERE IS OUR MONEY, DO AS YOU WOULD!” and ANet was like, well.. kitten GW1, let’s make GW2 grindy with pay walls.

Mars.6319:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mars.6319:

Seriously, man.. $700 MILLION DOLLARS investment within 3 months of her hiring and Nexon has no say in what goes on? You’d have an easier time convincing me that pigs can actually fly.

One word. Trebuchet.

Also, it should be noted you have no idea if they have no say, or not, and they probably can’t straight tell you one way or the other due to it being an internal matter. Though at this point it’s like running up to someone and asking them if their spouse has stopped beating them yet.

Ah, my bad, so Nexon invested so much money into NCSoft that they became NCSoft’s largest shareholder but didn’t exercise any power to influence NCSoft’s games. They were just like, “HERE IS OUR MONEY, DO AS YOU WOULD!” and ANet was like, well.. kitten GW1, let’s make GW2 grindy with pay walls.

Keep throwing conjecture at the walls, I’m sure something will stick. Also, stop baiting people to try arguing with you. NOBODY knows what’s going on there who can likely say “yes, it’s true” or “no, it’s false”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mars.6319:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mars.6319:

Seriously, man.. $700 MILLION DOLLARS investment within 3 months of her hiring and Nexon has no say in what goes on? You’d have an easier time convincing me that pigs can actually fly.

One word. Trebuchet.

Also, it should be noted you have no idea if they have no say, or not, and they probably can’t straight tell you one way or the other due to it being an internal matter. Though at this point it’s like running up to someone and asking them if their spouse has stopped beating them yet.

Ah, my bad, so Nexon invested so much money into NCSoft that they became NCSoft’s largest shareholder but didn’t exercise any power to influence NCSoft’s games. They were just like, “HERE IS OUR MONEY, DO AS YOU WOULD!” and ANet was like, well.. kitten GW1, let’s make GW2 grindy with pay walls.

Keep throwing conjecture at the walls, I’m sure something will stick. Also, stop baiting people to try arguing with you. NOBODY knows what’s going on there who can likely say “yes, it’s true” or “no, it’s false”.

Ya, you’re right!

Except Nexon did in fact buy a large amount of NCSoft stock around the same time that a former Nexon employee took over an important position in ANet. None of that is conjecture.

But who knows, maybe the person who ran Maplestory hates Maplestory’s cash shop and prefers GW1 but she’s being overruled by Colin Johanson because he had a change of heart. Yeah. That seems likely. Let’s go with that.

Mars.6319:

Ya, you’re right!

Except Nexon did in fact buy a large amount of NCSoft stock around the same time that a former Nexon employee took over an important position in ANet. None of that is conjecture.

But who knows, maybe the person who ran Maplestory hates Maplestory’s cash shop and prefers GW1 but she’s being overruled by Colin Johanson because he had a change of heart. Yeah. That seems likely. Let’s go with that.

sigh

You’re doing it again. Far more appealing is an idea you could get Nexon on insider trading thanks to a former employee becoming part of a company they later bought massively into. But, hey, that’s not about how the cash shop in Guild Wars 2 obviously is pay to win. I mean look at the massive amounts of game breaking benefits you can buy for Gems out of the shop.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mars.6319:

Ya, you’re right!

Except Nexon did in fact buy a large amount of NCSoft stock around the same time that a former Nexon employee took over an important position in ANet. None of that is conjecture.

But who knows, maybe the person who ran Maplestory hates Maplestory’s cash shop and prefers GW1 but she’s being overruled by Colin Johanson because he had a change of heart. Yeah. That seems likely. Let’s go with that.

sigh

You’re doing it again. Far more appealing is an idea you could get Nexon on insider trading thanks to a former employee becoming part of a company they later bought massively into. But, hey, that’s not about how the cash shop in Guild Wars 2 obviously is pay to win. I mean look at the massive amounts of game breaking benefits you can buy for Gems out of the shop.

I’m not speculating on how much Nexon spent or the fact that a previous employee took over an important position at ANet 3 month prior. That’s not speculation. That’s not me.

GW2 lets you convert gems to gold and therefor buy legendary weapons, ascended materials and crafting materials to make ascended gear. Again, this is not speculation.

The only speculation is why… and to tell the truth I really don’t care why. Selling end-game progression is despicable and I’ve lost respect for ANet.

Mars.6319:

Behellagh.1468:

You missed the point. She was hired BEFORE Nexon had any influence on NCSOFT, which assumes of course they have any influence at all even now.

Seriously, man.. $700 MILLION DOLLARS investment within 3 months of her hiring and Nexon has no say in what goes on? You’d have an easier time convincing me that pigs can actually fly.

If GW2 were GW1 but better then sure, you’d have something to fall back on… but GW2 is more like Maplestory than GW1.

First they didn’t invest in NCSOFT. NCSOFT got no money from the deal. The founder and CEO did since it was a large chunk of his shares Nexon bought, he owned 25% of the outstanding shares before the sale, now 10%. So he’s the one rolling around in his Scrooge McDuck vault of Nexon’s money, NCSOFT saw none of it.

Now your going to say “so they bought off the founder and CEO”. Again he got approximately $687 million dollars US (800 billion South Korean Won) for all those shares but why does he have to listen to Nexon? It’s not like Nexon can take the money back. All Nexon can threaten to do with those shares is sell them, at an enormous loss to Nexon. Sure they could try to put together enough other shareholders to try and change up the board but that kind of tactic is very uncommon or unheard of in Korea and as is just 15% isn’t enough to do anything.

The only thing announced after the deal was that NCSOFT and Nexon were going to work together on several projects. However the first one that was announced has now been canceled, no explanation given.

And you still think that it’s a logical response of a company who lost a valued employee to a competitor is to pay the CEO of your competitor a huge chunk of money? As a reward for hiring away an employee?

Behellagh.1468:

You missed the point. She was hired BEFORE Nexon had any influence on NCSOFT, which assumes of course they have any influence at all even now.

Not quite. She was hired before the buyout was announced and took place, but i’m pretty certain that talks about it went for months before it happened, and affected both companies even before actual transaction happened. It’s extremely likely that Ms Cox moving to NCSOFT was indeed part of the deal.

Behellagh.1468:

They have no seats on the board, and while owning 15% of the outstanding shares of a company is impressive, it doesn’t mean you can interfere in day to day operations or even influence a company’s direction in the slightest, all they can do is sell it.

If you think that the biggest major shareholder has no influence on NCSOFT’s decisions and company policy even without having a representative on board, then you are really naive.

That said, the gem shop in GW2 is still relatively mild compared to the real cash shop games. Practically only serious problem it has is those RNG boxes.

Astralporing.1957:

That said, the gem shop in GW2 is still relatively mild compared to the real cash shop games. Practically only serious problem it has is those RNG boxes.

given one of the main sells of the gem shop is gold which they are currently promoting as the primary currency of the game (removing glory etc) that will buy you anything and adding more grind and inflation as they go which you can bypass with some IRL cash id say rng boxes are a symptom and not the main problem

Bagel.4598:

It’s the same as the PvP community who rightfully complained that they couldn’t acquire Legendary skins through PvE alone, they are forced to do PvE if they want that exclusive content, and lo behold a update of PvP is on the horizon to fix this issue.
Why? Because it’s not right and Anet are aware of that.

(emphasis mine)

That’s right . Exclusive content. By the above logic, someone who buys the standard game rather than the Collector’s Edition should still be given the CE’s extras (it’s exclusive to the Collector’s Edition, after all).

Believe me, I see both sides of the argument, and there are some good points being made. Perhaps the Fractals could use some more adjustment; maybe the Ascended gear needs to be more readily available.

Personally, I don’t see the point to going after Ascended gear. It’s not a huge improvement over the gear I already have (I mean, let’s face facts, folks: at level 80, all Ascended gear will really do is help you kill things a little quicker), and I can think of better things to do with my play-time.

Which brings me to one final note:

Whether Ascended gear is easy to get or not, whether higher-level Fractals are too hard without it or not, the only thing you’re truly ‘forced’ to do is decide whether it’s worth the time investment.

Nobody but you is saying ‘I _must_complete this Fractal for my life to have meaning’.

Ah, the “forced” argument. And the willful misunderstanding that so often comes with it.

Let me see if I can help – when people say ‘forced’, its with the expectation that the reader can fill in the “to achieve my goals” part. I know, implicit statements are tricky.

…as in “I am forced to get Ascended gear to achieve my goal of having a stats-complete character”

…or sometimes “Forced” as in “there are no alternatives while pursuing that goal.”

And yes, anyone can overcome that whole “forced” part by abandoning their goals… which is pretty much the exact moment any sane person moves on to a new game.

I’d rather not lose people so easily. Or casually. It tends to degrade my play experience over time .

Nike.2631:

And yes, anyone can overcome that whole “forced” part by abandoning their goals… which is pretty much the exact moment any sane person moves on to a new game.

yes, it is the right solution.
i’ll take the advice. many will, actually.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You’re doing it again. Far more appealing is an idea you could get Nexon on insider trading thanks to a former employee becoming part of a company they later bought massively into. But, hey, that’s not about how the cash shop in Guild Wars 2 obviously is pay to win. I mean look at the massive amounts of game breaking benefits you can buy for Gems out of the shop.

A $700m investment would be discussed for months before it happened so it would have definitely been under discussion when Cox became part of Anet.

VOLKON.1290:

That’s just the point, I am looking at the spirit behind it! It’s the people twisting the words and meanings into something unintended then claiming the manifesto has somehow been violated that are the problems.

You are twisting words and meanings into something not intended by the manifesto.

No grind is quite clear, as is ‘everything you loved about guildwars’. I know what I loved about it and a lot of it is not in it.

I know what grind is and it’s what you need to do to get the current best-in-slot. Grind is gathering mats, killing x monsters, y veterans and some more of those every single day to get the tokens that will buy the trinkets, and daily champion trains and dungeon runs to acquire gold to buy the other stuff to craft the best-in-slot weapons and (maybe) the armor. Individually all of these activities can be fun, occasionally, but it stops being fun and becomes a grind when it has to be done every day.

A full set of the current best-in-slot (ascended) is more then 30% stronger then the previous best-in-slot (exotic). Eventually you will need it in Wvw when more and more players use it, and you’ll need it for new content, when all those players running on the next gear tier want content made for the power level of their hard earned gear.

I understand that every gear-treadmill starts with the first step, which has been taken. How many steps does it take to convince you that they have diverted from their manifesto?

WRay.2391:

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

WRay.2391:

After ascended introduction you have stats increase. This forces you to get it ASAP to have the same benefits in stats as exotics granted previously. This prevents you from doing other content (in most cases it’s psychological desire, but it doesn’t really matter. With one patch ANET made you a second class citizen considering initial game setup and manifesto). Or you can admit that manifesto failed and this game is the same as the others MMOs on the market now. In this case I’ll switch to another game as soon as will find a good one.

Forces? Why? What can’t you do in the game without ascended stats? Is there new content that’s ascended only that I didn’t hear about?

Eh… no. You’re not forced into getting ascended. Maybe you think you are as a relic of past games where numbers were far more significant, but no, it’s ridiculous to claim that you’re being “forced” into ascended gear. If you want it, go for it. If not, nothing changes.

Forces. Sheesh.

Emphasized the initial post to aide with reading comprehension.

Emphasizing a falsehood doesn’t make it magically true.

Feelings aren’t true or false, they are feelings.

Obviously, if you look at the forums, there are many people who feel as if the have to get ascended gear, or who feel dissatisfied until they get ascended gear. I know you don’t HAVE to have it. But you don’t HAVE to play the game. And you certainly shouldn’t play a game that makes you feel second class.

My apologies then, I was thinking factually as opposed to feelingsy.

LOL So this game is your second job so you don’t have feeling about it ? TBH I will even leave my job if I will stop having fun doing it.

• I bought a product where BiS item is meant to be a normal thing when you reach 80. It was true and it was designed like this. ANED didn’t admit that manifesto changed so I assume now ascended should be a normal item for lvl 80. Is it normal logical chain ? What is a reason for want/need conversation ? * Or ANET sold one product and then changed it to another. In this case it’s a good approach to propose money back to unsatisfied players.

You don’t need exotics to do most of the activities. Are you using them though ? My bet is ‘yes’. Still nobody forces you. It’s a matter of convenience.

Grind can be considered mental disease if you want to talk about diseases. You spend tons of your time like a robot to get something that is meant to be easy to get. And you are happy about it. I’m currently just spending less time in this game in general, so I assume I’m not that bad.

What are you going on about? I think you were trying to make a point but ran out of mats. Why am I using exotics (which I am)? Because they are cheap and easy to get which frees up most of my time to do WvW. The fact that ascended isn’t necessary is the reason my tailoring is only in the 460s or 470s area… there’s no rush.

The reason ascended was introduced makes perfect sense in my opinion. They simply didn’t expect exotics to become so plentiful and easy to get. As a result, players that like to put time and effort into getting their gear (there are plenty) were complaining that they had nothing to work for. So what’s the solution to giving those players a longer term goal while sticking with the core philosophy of the game and avoiding the gear treadmill? Introduce a new tier, slightly better than the exotic, that will serve as a time sink keeping the players that do desire putting effort into the “BiS” stuff something to work towards, yet keep the stats reined in such that they’re not necessary equipment to reach any goals in the game. It’s like giving everyone a dozen donuts for a dollar and telling people they can have a thirteenth if they run a marathon while blowing Dixie out a kazoo stuck in their nose. Many people will be quite content with the dozen donuts, but some are going to go for number thirteen.

frans.8092:

VOLKON.1290:

That’s just the point, I am looking at the spirit behind it! It’s the people twisting the words and meanings into something unintended then claiming the manifesto has somehow been violated that are the problems.

You are twisting words and meanings into something not intended by the manifesto.

No grind is quite clear, as is ‘everything you loved about guildwars’. I know what I loved about it and a lot of it is not in it.

I know what grind is and it’s what you need to do to get the current best-in-slot. Grind is gathering mats, killing x monsters, y veterans and some more of those every single day to get the tokens that will buy the trinkets, and daily champion trains and dungeon runs to acquire gold to buy the other stuff to craft the best-in-slot weapons and (maybe) the armor. Individually all of these activities can be fun, occasionally, but it stops being fun and becomes a grind when it has to be done every day.

A full set of the current best-in-slot (ascended) is more then 30% stronger then the previous best-in-slot (exotic). Eventually you will need it in Wvw when more and more players use it, and you’ll need it for new content, when all those players running on the next gear tier want content made for the power level of their hard earned gear.

I understand that every gear-treadmill starts with the first step, which has been taken. How many steps does it take to convince you that they have diverted from their manifesto?

Well, we can argue until we’re blue in the face as to whether or not there’s a treadmill introduced, however the only proof we’ll have is when Legendary armors come into play. If they’ve the same stats as ascended then it’ll be obvious there isn’t. If they’re an actual tier higher, then there will be issues worth raging about. So far, with the weapons being kept on par with ascended, there is no indications that that’ll be an issue.

frans.8092:

VOLKON.1290:

That’s just the point, I am looking at the spirit behind it! It’s the people twisting the words and meanings into something unintended then claiming the manifesto has somehow been violated that are the problems.

You are twisting words and meanings into something not intended by the manifesto.

No grind is quite clear, as is ‘everything you loved about guildwars’. I know what I loved about it and a lot of it is not in it.

I know what grind is and it’s what you need to do to get the current best-in-slot. Grind is gathering mats, killing x monsters, y veterans and some more of those every single day to get the tokens that will buy the trinkets, and daily champion trains and dungeon runs to acquire gold to buy the other stuff to craft the best-in-slot weapons and (maybe) the armor. Individually all of these activities can be fun, occasionally, but it stops being fun and becomes a grind when it has to be done every day.

A full set of the current best-in-slot (ascended) is more then 30% stronger then the previous best-in-slot (exotic). Eventually you will need it in Wvw when more and more players use it, and you’ll need it for new content, when all those players running on the next gear tier want content made for the power level of their hard earned gear.

I understand that every gear-treadmill starts with the first step, which has been taken. How many steps does it take to convince you that they have diverted from their manifesto?

It’s so funny when people say they know what grind is. Except grind HAS multiple definitions and Colin took the time to define how he meant it in the manifesto itself. When someone ignores how you define something in a document (or video), then they are in fact taking the comment out of context.

It’s not really significant if you think you know what grind means. For the purposes of the video, Colin said most games have this annoying “grind” before you get to the fun stuff…before you get to fun stuff…not before you get new gear and raid.

Saying you know what grind is, while ignoring how it was defined in the manifesto is the very definition of taking something out of context.

Words don’t exist all by themselves. They’re formed into paragraphs for a reason. Colin later clarified it and specifically gave examples of what he was talking about. The Shadow Behemoth is an encounter that happens in a starter zone for a reason.

If you think that somehow equates to gear grind, I guess I have nothing more to say.

Volkon.
You are right, and the reason they introduced ascended is exactly why you described.

STILL

Forced or not, needed or not, BIS gear has become a grind. This is against their initial intentions as described in all the material already produced in this topic.

They introduced BIS grind for those that wanted it… and in the same time just ignored all those that came to this game because they did not want to grind for BIS.

You can try to say anything about BIS not being needed, not being forced to you or whatever. But BIS now means grind. And this was not intended before launch. Never. Period.

Now, they decided to change. Fine. it’s their game and they have their reasons. But they changed. They went against the core philosophy and you can twist the words as much as you want.

Now there is grind… and there will be a gear treadmill. It’s the logical suite.
What will they do when the level cap is increased? (because they mentioned plenty of times they would)

Perfect solution would be to scale level 80 ascended gear automatically to the new level cap without needing to recraft it. If they do I will bow to them.
But I can bet you all you want that you will need somehow to grind again to get lvl90 ascended. Here… you have your treadmill.

Only future will tell, and I am really really hoping that the CDI will bear results. But I doubt it.

I think all MMO’s need some level of grind to survive otherwise people will get bored and leave. Compared to other MMO’s there is not as much grind in this game unless you like to get every achievement point and be on the leaderboard or get legendaries/ascended items. All of these things are for hardcore players who got bored and complained that there wasn’t much to do in the game and aren’t really required.

Only thing that annoys me is that they release Living Story content every 2 weeks, which is just overkill in my opinion and many of the Living story achievements are a grind. To be fair though, nowadays it has gotten better, in the past, living story achievements were even more tedious. Still I hope they start releasing Living Story content on a monthly basis rather than every 2 weeks.

Vayne.8563:

It’s not really significant if you think you know what grind means. For the purposes of the video, Colin said most games have this annoying “grind” before you get to the fun stuff…before you get to fun stuff…not before you get new gear and raid.

No.
BIS gear was presented as easy to obtain by the time you reach 80.
There is nothing easy in obtaining ascended and more that evident that you will not get BIS when hitting 80 if you are new.

So yes… gear was supposed to be left out of the grind and BIS was supposed to be in your hands before “getting to fun stuff”.