Guild Wars 2

Actually it is VERY easy to obtain Ascended.
It basically requires no skill at all, and is much easier to obtain than lets say Dungeon Exotics.

One thing I never really got about the ‘people got exotic items too fast’ reason for ascended items is that they reduced the amount of time and dungeon tokens needed to get them just after launch.

If exotics were taking too much time to get, why reduce the time to get them in the first place? Why not either just leave it alone?

BeoErgon.9107:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not really significant if you think you know what grind means. For the purposes of the video, Colin said most games have this annoying “grind” before you get to the fun stuff…before you get to fun stuff…not before you get new gear and raid.

No.
BIS gear was presented as easy to obtain by the time you reach 80.
There is nothing easy in obtaining ascended and more that evident that you will not get BIS when hitting 80 if you are new.

So yes… gear was supposed to be left out of the grind and BIS was supposed to be in your hands before “getting to fun stuff”.

Sorry this thread said what happened to the manifesto. Are you suggesting that BIS gear was supposed to be easy to get according to the manifesto?

I’d be happy to discuss other places that Anet said this is another thread.

BeoErgon.9107:

No.
BIS gear was presented as easy to obtain by the time you reach 80.
There is nothing easy in obtaining ascended and more that evident that you will not get BIS when hitting 80 if you are new.

So yes… gear was supposed to be left out of the grind and BIS was supposed to be in your hands before “getting to fun stuff”.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think Vayne is saying that Arena.net didn’t go against their initial plan with the entire addition of Ascended (in fact, I believe he has said the opposite). I think is point is that the Manifesto is NOT where they stated that intention, and thus using the Manifesto for that purpose is inaccurate.

chemiclord.3978:

BeoErgon.9107:

No.
BIS gear was presented as easy to obtain by the time you reach 80.
There is nothing easy in obtaining ascended and more that evident that you will not get BIS when hitting 80 if you are new.

So yes… gear was supposed to be left out of the grind and BIS was supposed to be in your hands before “getting to fun stuff”.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think Vayne is saying that Arena.net didn’t go against their initial plan with the entire addition of Ascended (in fact, I believe he has said the opposite). I think is point is that the Manifesto is NOT where they stated that intention, and thus using the Manifesto for that purpose is inaccurate.

Pretty much what I’m saying. I think the manifesto, with the exception of a single line, is pretty much accurate or close to accurate.

People keep bringing it up.

If you don’t like ascended gear, you can not like it without trying to put it in the manifesto. Since I don’t believe the manifesto talks about gear, it doesn’t strengthen your case.

I’m not a fan of ascended gear either, or gear progression.

I strongly suggest you to watch the thread vayne opened about the manifesto…..

He distorted anything said by anet with retrospection….

The point is:
If you take a normal person and show him the manifesto he will understand what obviously the game imply.

That is different from Playing with every single word of it trying to suggest hidden meanings to make it live with the current game direction…….

If you look at gae mechanics its easy to see ascended was never planned:
Infact the game was focused on play the way you want…

i could get bis, by www, by crafting by dungeons etc etc.

Ascended needed to overhaul a complex system, and it couldn t be done well due to the amount of work required.

In fact tafter a year they still have to introduce different access to BiS items…

There are a lot of points aeasily disproving any point vayne made on his thread but he will play more with words than just using common sense until you will discuss even what “best in slot” means or stuff like that…..

NB: its a critic to his logic not to him.

LordByron.8369:

I strongly suggest you to watch the thread vayne opened about the manifesto…..

He distorted anything said by anet with retrospection….

The point is:
If you take a normal person and show him the manifesto he will understand what obviously the game imply.

That is different from Playing with every single word of it trying to suggest hidden meanings to make it live with the current game direction…….

If you look at gae mechanics its easy to see ascended was never planned:
Infact the game was focused on play the way you want…

i could get bis, by www, by crafting by dungeons etc etc.

Ascended needed to overhaul a complex system, and it couldn t be done well due to the amount of work required.

In fact tafter a year they still have to introduce different access to BiS items…

There are a lot of points aeasily disproving any point vayne made on his thread but he will play more with words than just using common sense until you will discuss even what “best in slot” means or stuff like that…..

NB: its a critic to his logic not to him.

A normal person? You mean people who hang on every word a company says for years and makes it a mantra? Is this the definition of normal you’re using?

A normal person sees something like the manifesto, says that’s cool, doesn’t memorize it, sees it as a concept piece and forgets about it for two years. That’s pretty much what normal people do.

I submit no party on any side of this argument is “normal” in the sense of average.

On the other hand, I didn’t twist a single word. Not one. I took the words in context, by including all of them. The people arguing the manifesto is talking about gear or gear grind have nothing in the manifesto to back them up.

Exactly as i said now we should debate on the meaning of “normal person”……
Vayne you clearly love this game and i am really happy for you….

But all you have left is trying this boring tactic of analyzing and discussing the meaning of every word….and its not working.

Time is Money.

Your time. Their money.

Maybe both sides can agree the manifesto was a Jedi mind trick, its the only thing that makes complete sense due to the influx of Jedi when GW2 launched.

Or Anakin went bat kitten crazy with his light saber in the boardroom.

Come to think of it I can picture the Emperor as the head of Anet, I just can.

Vayne,
Seriously. The manifesto as you pointed out is maybe misleading, but when they talked about no grind before fun, and following all other explanations in consecutive interviews that meant no grind for BIS.

You were trying to imply that when they talked about no grind this did not include BIS. Saying that "no grind "in the manifesto might have some other significance than “no grind” in the interviews and that we are fools for thinking so is pushing it a bit too far.

I don’t know. Is as if I said to my daughter she would have her favorite dessert while showing her some pudding and in the night after dinner I give her an orange. She will go all : “hey! that is not pudding!” and I will simply answer : “I never said you would have pudding!”

Yes, I know this image is a bit strange

Still, if the manifesto talks about no grind and interviews about no grind for BIS : automatically the grind they talked in the manifesto included BIS too unless they had some weird Jeckyl/hyde personality.

Now they changed their view on the game. Ok, fine. Not pleased but it’s their right.

LordByron.8369:

Exactly as i said now we should debate on the meaning of “normal person”……
Vayne you clearly love this game and i am really happy for you….

But all you have left is trying this boring tactic of analyzing and discussing the meaning of every word….and its not working.

The OP left itself open to this. I wish we would all stop talking about the bleeping manifesto. Instead, talk about your disappointment in the direction the game has taken. What you hoped the game would be and how it’s lived up to your hopes or fallen short.

Talking about the manifesto just clouds the discussion. No one promised us anything.

Personally, I hoped the game would be one that encouraged me to try everything – every class, every race, every build. Instead I find it’s just another another single toon MMO, like so many others.

TooBz.3065:

LordByron.8369:

Exactly as i said now we should debate on the meaning of “normal person”……
Vayne you clearly love this game and i am really happy for you….

But all you have left is trying this boring tactic of analyzing and discussing the meaning of every word….and its not working.

The OP left itself open to this. I wish we would all stop talking about the bleeping manifesto. Instead, talk about your disappointment in the direction the game has taken. What you hoped the game would be and how it’s lived up to your hopes or fallen short.

Talking about the manifesto just clouds the discussion. No one promised us anything.

What about being able to talk about how we’re not disappointed in the direction things are going? Is that allowed too?

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

LordByron.8369:

Exactly as i said now we should debate on the meaning of “normal person”……
Vayne you clearly love this game and i am really happy for you….

But all you have left is trying this boring tactic of analyzing and discussing the meaning of every word….and its not working.

The OP left itself open to this. I wish we would all stop talking about the bleeping manifesto. Instead, talk about your disappointment in the direction the game has taken. What you hoped the game would be and how it’s lived up to your hopes or fallen short.

Talking about the manifesto just clouds the discussion. No one promised us anything.

What about being able to talk about how we’re not disappointed in the direction things are going? Is that allowed too?

Well, I said talk about how it’s lived up to your hope or fallen short.

I was trying to be inclusive. Sorry, I realize I led with the disappointment thing, but that’s because of the specific person I was talking to.

What I meant was, discuss the direction of the game. What you hoped it would be and how it’s lived up to your hopes or fallen short.

Anyway, i’m not trying to dictate anything. I’m just saying that nitpicking a three year old video is a waste of time.

I know a lot of people are very happy with the direction of the game.

Here’s a weird thing. I would have been fine with the game if that’s the way the went from the beginning. I’d be running around with my Sylvari Thief and I’d have one character with full ascended everything.

Instead, I’m running around with a stable of characters that are partially equipped with BIS gear and I dislike it.

There’s no point even discussing this. Talking about the Manifesto will always leave the waters surrounding it frothy due to all the arguments.

We have the people who are disappointed talking about what they interpret the video to be talking about, and we have the white knights who, in their infinite worldy wisdom, know exactly what the video was talking about and even know about the clarifications that are hidden deep within the confines of the Internet and are nowhere to be found near the video itself.

And then we have a locked thread after 10 pages which really ruins all the fun.

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

LordByron.8369:

Exactly as i said now we should debate on the meaning of “normal person”……
Vayne you clearly love this game and i am really happy for you….

But all you have left is trying this boring tactic of analyzing and discussing the meaning of every word….and its not working.

The OP left itself open to this. I wish we would all stop talking about the bleeping manifesto. Instead, talk about your disappointment in the direction the game has taken. What you hoped the game would be and how it’s lived up to your hopes or fallen short.

Talking about the manifesto just clouds the discussion. No one promised us anything.

What about being able to talk about how we’re not disappointed in the direction things are going? Is that allowed too?

Well, I said talk about how it’s lived up to your hope or fallen short.

I was trying to be inclusive.

Well, ok then, I can have a go at that. (Disclaimer: The following is based on personal opinion based on my own experiences tempered with observed facts.)

For me it’s more than lived up to expectations. Start with the combat, we have one of if not the best combat systems I’ve had the chance to partake in. They’ve made combat fast, fun and flowing and the promised removal of hard roles and the trinity has been excellently delivered, and this is best felt when going up against other players. Ascended gear has been implemented well to fill a glaring time-gap with regards to gear progression. It’s a marginal enough improvement in stats to not be game-breaking or require specific content, yet enough of an improvement in stats to be desirable for many to go after, and best of all, it avoids the gear treadmill plague that has infected so many MMOs to date. The cash shop is nicely implemented to have an absolutely minimal effect on game play yet allow for many desirable cosmetic items. I like Living Story to be honest. It feels weird, this holiday stretch, to have no new content for a WHOLE SIX WEEKS! I think I may have been getting spoiled on there always being something new to check out. Not everyone liked every bit, but there was always something new.

Any disappointments, although that would be a strong word, would be in the need for additional horizontal progression options, however this is being addressed with much input from the community via the CDI threads and holds great promise. The personal story, well, some arcs were better than others, but the fact that it ends off when you hit 80 then disappears means that it is effectively meaningless over time for your character. Once it’s done, it’s done and there isn’t anything more to be had from it. There is a whisper about possibly using personal story arcs as one means to unlock new skills, weapons, traits and the like in the CDI, so this chapter isn’t closed either.

Well, there you go.

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

LordByron.8369:

Exactly as i said now we should debate on the meaning of “normal person”……
Vayne you clearly love this game and i am really happy for you….

But all you have left is trying this boring tactic of analyzing and discussing the meaning of every word….and its not working.

The OP left itself open to this. I wish we would all stop talking about the bleeping manifesto. Instead, talk about your disappointment in the direction the game has taken. What you hoped the game would be and how it’s lived up to your hopes or fallen short.

Talking about the manifesto just clouds the discussion. No one promised us anything.

What about being able to talk about how we’re not disappointed in the direction things are going? Is that allowed too?

Well, I said talk about how it’s lived up to your hope or fallen short.

I was trying to be inclusive.

Well, ok then, I can have a go at that. (Disclaimer: The following is based on personal opinion based on my own experiences tempered with observed facts.)

For me it’s more than lived up to expectations. Start with the combat, we have one of if not the best combat systems I’ve had the chance to partake in. They’ve made combat fast, fun and flowing and the promised removal of hard roles and the trinity has been excellently delivered, and this is best felt when going up against other players. Ascended gear has been implemented well to fill a glaring time-gap with regards to gear progression. It’s a marginal enough improvement in stats to not be game-breaking or require specific content, yet enough of an improvement in stats to be desirable for many to go after, and best of all, it avoids the gear treadmill plague that has infected so many MMOs to date. The cash shop is nicely implemented to have an absolutely minimal effect on game play yet allow for many desirable cosmetic items. I like Living Story to be honest. It feels weird, this holiday stretch, to have no new content for a WHOLE SIX WEEKS! I think I may have been getting spoiled on there always being something new to check out. Not everyone liked every bit, but there was always something new.

Any disappointments, although that would be a strong word, would be in the need for additional horizontal progression options, however this is being addressed with much input from the community via the CDI threads and holds great promise. The personal story, well, some arcs were better than others, but the fact that it ends off when you hit 80 then disappears means that it is effectively meaningless over time for your character. Once it’s done, it’s done and there isn’t anything more to be had from it. There is a whisper about possibly using personal story arcs as one means to unlock new skills, weapons, traits and the like in the CDI, so this chapter isn’t closed either.

Well, there you go.

Thanks! I agree with almost everything you said.

Can I ask a couple of questions?

Have you played other MMOs? Although I’m an “experienced” gamer this is my first MMO, so I probably have unrealistic expectations about what they are like. Also, do you run multiple character’s or just one? Sometimes I think my discontent just comes from creating and liking too many characters.

Maybe I should ask the other side the same question.

“Everything you loved about gw” I loved that i could get max armor on a lvl5.

To answer the OP’s original question: because MMOs, in spite of being large, contain very little game, where I define “game” as making choices which affect the outcome. MMOs, GW2 included, give out rewards based on the hours you put in. You can be more or less efficient, but that’s it. You can’t fail. Sure, you can fail a dungeon sometimes, then try again. It’s extremely hard to fail world PvE (short term failure is just a teleport). PvP and WvW offer some sense of success. You can craft more or less efficiently, but you can’t craft well or badly. GW2 even takes away a lot of efficiency choices during levelling, because everything you do progresses your XP at almost the same rate.

You can see the world (and it’s pretty). You can learn to use your skills. After that, all you can do is “get” stuff. Hours in, get stuff out. To break that pattern, they’d need to add gameplay, not stuff.

I really respect Anet for trying, but the manifesto was all about what they wouldn’t do, without much idea of how they’d fill the gap.

TooBz.3065:

What I meant was, discuss the direction of the game. What you hoped it would be and how it’s lived up to your hopes or fallen short.

I’ll try to be brief. I’ll also address individual “hopes” and how they either met them or disappointed, and how it could be addressed in turn.

I was hoping it would be something like Guild Wars 1 where I could pick it up and put it down at my leisure, and it would always be where I left it off so I could . . . say . . . get kittened off at Eternal Grove all over again and take a week off and things would still be there for me to go back to. Mostly, this is what I got . . . except in the finer details. If I don’t do a zone when it’s hot and people are actually there, I might not be able to do completion due to things being left to overrun the map. I cannot do this to the Living Story, though I kind of accepted that much like I couldn’t do it in GW1 to Wintersday or Mad King events. some things you just gotta decide if you really really want to do it.

I was hoping the gameplay would live up to trailer videos in being more active and easier to control than GW1 skills could be. For instance, being able to free-target an AoE instead of needing to center it on a moving target. I mostly got what I wanted here, since I find things more engaging than the combat in GW1 and more within my power. The addition of a Z axis which does not break targeting issues (a la old EQ on release) also is exactly in the realm of what I’d hoped for. Underwater combat is still either tediously simple or difficult depending on what class and what targets I’m working with, though.

I was hoping I wouldn’t need to spend money to play the game, as anymore promising a monthly allotment of funds for a game isn’t appealing to me. Holding aside a fraction of my “entertainment budget” for a month just in case something neat shows up, however, is entirely what I’d want. So far this is a place GuildWars 2 hasn’t changed at all. I don’t have to fork over $10/month just to stay in the game, and there isn’t anything purchased with Gems I really feel a burning need for. (Yes, this includes Gems to Gold – I don’t need it.)

I’m flexible on other expectations but I went into GW2 pretty much with those big three and the understanding if I hated it then it was no worse than spending the money on Final Fantasy 54 and being disappointed.

mesme.5028:

“Everything you loved about gw” I loved that i could get max armor on a lvl5.

I loved selling Droknar runs so you could do that.

It fed into my Miniatures habit.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

“Everything you loved about gw” I loved that i could get max armor on a lvl5.

I loved selling Droknar runs so you could do that.

It fed into my Miniatures habit.

Glad to have helped you along the way.

LordByron.8369:

Exactly as i said now we should debate on the meaning of “normal person”……
Vayne you clearly love this game and i am really happy for you….

But all you have left is trying this boring tactic of analyzing and discussing the meaning of every word….and its not working.

You’re missing the point. You made the comment of what a normal person would do, and I’m pointing out what a normal person would do. This isn’t some semantic game.

You’re try to skew the truth and saying that I’m twisting words, when I haven’t twisted a single word. Not one. Words were my business for a very very long time. I not only saw the manifesto, but I saw what Anet said about the manifesto after the manifesto. This isn’t guesswork or some theory. This is what was said.

You can ignore that as much as you like but it doesn’t make it untrue.

Mabuse.2879:

To answer the OP’s original question: because MMOs, in spite of being large, contain very little game, where I define “game” as making choices which affect the outcome. MMOs, GW2 included, give out rewards based on the hours you put in. You can be more or less efficient, but that’s it. You can’t fail. Sure, you can fail a dungeon sometimes, then try again. It’s extremely hard to fail world PvE (short term failure is just a teleport). PvP and WvW offer some sense of success. You can craft more or less efficiently, but you can’t craft well or badly. GW2 even takes away a lot of efficiency choices during levelling, because everything you do progresses your XP at almost the same rate.

You can see the world (and it’s pretty). You can learn to use your skills. After that, all you can do is “get” stuff. Hours in, get stuff out. To break that pattern, they’d need to add gameplay, not stuff.

I really respect Anet for trying, but the manifesto was all about what they wouldn’t do, without much idea of how they’d fill the gap.

I too would like more game play, im trying to progress in fract’s atm, thou im stuck at lvl49, i just don’t have the ar and gold enough to get it, in that respect gw2 is more like wow than gw, wow is all about gear, gw1 gear was style after you got max armor,
iv’e a feeling we wont see the last of the power creep and that’s a shame.

As you say you can be more or less efficient but without 70 ar in lvl 50 fracts or close you will be dead, more game play and less focus on gear would be just fab.

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

TooBz.3065:

LordByron.8369:

Exactly as i said now we should debate on the meaning of “normal person”……
Vayne you clearly love this game and i am really happy for you….

But all you have left is trying this boring tactic of analyzing and discussing the meaning of every word….and its not working.

The OP left itself open to this. I wish we would all stop talking about the bleeping manifesto. Instead, talk about your disappointment in the direction the game has taken. What you hoped the game would be and how it’s lived up to your hopes or fallen short.

Talking about the manifesto just clouds the discussion. No one promised us anything.

What about being able to talk about how we’re not disappointed in the direction things are going? Is that allowed too?

Well, I said talk about how it’s lived up to your hope or fallen short.

I was trying to be inclusive.

Well, ok then, I can have a go at that. (Disclaimer: The following is based on personal opinion based on my own experiences tempered with observed facts.)

For me it’s more than lived up to expectations. Start with the combat, we have one of if not the best combat systems I’ve had the chance to partake in. They’ve made combat fast, fun and flowing and the promised removal of hard roles and the trinity has been excellently delivered, and this is best felt when going up against other players. Ascended gear has been implemented well to fill a glaring time-gap with regards to gear progression. It’s a marginal enough improvement in stats to not be game-breaking or require specific content, yet enough of an improvement in stats to be desirable for many to go after, and best of all, it avoids the gear treadmill plague that has infected so many MMOs to date. The cash shop is nicely implemented to have an absolutely minimal effect on game play yet allow for many desirable cosmetic items. I like Living Story to be honest. It feels weird, this holiday stretch, to have no new content for a WHOLE SIX WEEKS! I think I may have been getting spoiled on there always being something new to check out. Not everyone liked every bit, but there was always something new.

Any disappointments, although that would be a strong word, would be in the need for additional horizontal progression options, however this is being addressed with much input from the community via the CDI threads and holds great promise. The personal story, well, some arcs were better than others, but the fact that it ends off when you hit 80 then disappears means that it is effectively meaningless over time for your character. Once it’s done, it’s done and there isn’t anything more to be had from it. There is a whisper about possibly using personal story arcs as one means to unlock new skills, weapons, traits and the like in the CDI, so this chapter isn’t closed either.

Well, there you go.

Thanks! I agree with almost everything you said.

Can I ask a couple of questions?

Have you played other MMOs? Although I’m an “experienced” gamer this is my first MMO, so I probably have unrealistic expectations about what they are like. Also, do you run multiple character’s or just one? Sometimes I think my discontent just comes from creating and liking too many characters.

Maybe I should ask the other side the same question.

I’ve played a few, with the “big” ones being WoW and EveOnline, as well as stints in STO, um… you know… nothing that left an impression. Anyhow, for the most part I’ve been running my mesmer (yet have 6 80s and a 7th on the way). However lately I’ve been getting the alts out more for WvW now that there is confirmed account-wide WXP. Personally my mesmer is my main and the others are change-of-pace alts.

Was going to post something new in this thread, but after reading my previous posts realised everything has already been said.

Azala Yar.7693:

Was going to post something new in this thread, but after reading my previous posts realised everything has already been said.

You made a post, you made a post again, we don’t want peeps to repeat themself’s
Gosh something in that sounds familiar.

mesme.5028:

Azala Yar.7693:

Was going to post something new in this thread, but after reading my previous posts realised everything has already been said.

You made a post, you made a post again, we don’t want peeps to repeat themself’s
Gosh something in that sounds familiar.

You did make me laugh.

I was reading my old posts and what I was thinking of posting in this thread, I had already said in another older thread.

Sure I could repeat myself, but why bother. It didn’t get anywhere the first time.

If people look through their old posts how many times have they repeated themselves in effect.

You often get the same people arguing for and the same ones arguing against.

Azala Yar.7693:

mesme.5028:

Azala Yar.7693:

Was going to post something new in this thread, but after reading my previous posts realised everything has already been said.

You made a post, you made a post again, we don’t want peeps to repeat themself’s
Gosh something in that sounds familiar.

You did make me laugh.

I was reading my old posts and what I was thinking of posting in this thread, I had already said in another older thread.

Sure I could repeat myself, but why bother. It didn’t get anywhere the first time.

If people look through their old posts how many times have they repeated themselves in effect.

You often get the same people arguing for and the same ones arguing against.

I know, I know, I really just try to be consistent with my nonsensical devotion to bits and bytes of things I really don’t have impacting my real life

VOLKON.1290:

The reason ascended was introduced makes perfect sense in my opinion. They simply didn’t expect exotics to become so plentiful and easy to get.

This is incorrect and has been proven to be so by quotes in this thread.

am i the only one to think that my post didn’t infringe any forum rules? (and got locked).

about exotics easy or not: i’m sure anet knew that they were readily available at level 80. they wanted them to be like that.
and after a while, they changed their minds as knew that ascended would be so much grind.
it’s not incidental.

Kevan.8912:

am i the only one to think that my post didn’t infringe any forum rules? (and got locked).

Referencing locked threads and moderated posts is a good way to wind up eating another helping of moderation attention. Try, really try, to approach it in a way different?

Or take it to Reddit? They don’t have quite as stringent rules on what you can post.

about exotics easy or not: i’m sure anet knew that they were readily available at level 80. they wanted them to be like that.
and after a while, they changed their minds as knew that ascended would be so much grind.
it’s not incidental.

It’s related to exactly how easy exotics were versus what people had to go through for a Legendary. And thus they were out to try to put a middle ground for effort.

. . . and rather completely missed the mark in the process . . .

well…i think it didn’t intend to be the middle ground
but just a better investment (than actual just cosmetic legrndaries) for money/time/grind, with an incentive in stats for who needs it.

Kevan.8912:

well…i think it didn’t intend to be the middle ground
but just a better investment (than actual just cosmetic legrndaries) for money/time/grind, with an incentive in stats for who needs it.

I said that because it was a paraphrase of what they said. The exact words, if I recall, were “to bridge the gap between exotic and legendary”, which at the time seemed odd if you just looked at it statistics-wise (because legendary weapons had the same stats as exotics).

You mentioned effort, and it’s been occurring to me maybe the investment to obtain was supposedly the middle ground they were shooting for. And as I said, they terribly overshot to where you can almost take the money spent to get up to crafting an Ascended weapon and just get a Legendary weapon.

I don’t know. I looked at exotic weapons. I looked at legendary weapons. Exotics were massively easy to get. Legendaries were amazingly hard to get (certainly for the average player).

There needed to be something in between…in my opinion anyway and apparently Anets.

They probably would have had another tier at launch if they didn’t want to release before MoP (that’s my opinion not fact). But they released when they felt they had to, as any business would.

I’m pretty sure most people think the game wasn’t ready, with broken quest chains etc.

I’m also pretty sure they spoke about ascended gear before launch and never annouced it, because it wasn’t ready to go into the game.

The whole debacle could have probably been avoided if Anet were better at communicating.

Vayne.8563:

The whole debacle could have probably been avoided if Anet were better at communicating.

This could be said for a lot of games . . .

They’re getting better though. Definitely putting some effort into trying. Now to see if it works.

“communication”…well.
if i knew it, i would never have bought this game.
and i think many others with me.

i think that anet generated what you name a “bad communication” on a purpose.
they sold it on that advertisement.
or it’s just n00b’s (including me) fault to misunderstand it?
in the end, the result is the same: many casual gamers will leave the game.
for us…it’s too late.
we already spent that money. but they won’t see other.
however, still wait for any change of direction.
but it’s a fool’s hope.

OT: and…there is no hatred left in my words.
only sadness. what a pity. i really used to love it as it was in the very beginning.

Kevan, seriously . . .

If you’re hanging around hoping to change things, try to be better about it instead of just bitter. Stop knocking on what didn’t work or is wrong, and get to work figuring a way out which doesn’t insult the people you hope to get to listen to you.

Please?

If you had paid attention to a single thing other than just a video released several years before the game, you would have been fully aware about any things that might have changed (or had been clarified since people did seem to misunderstand things quite a bit.).

They can communicate all they want, but if the players don’t even bother looking at said communication it is utterly pointless.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know. I looked at exotic weapons. I looked at legendary weapons. Exotics were massively easy to get. Legendaries were amazingly hard to get (certainly for the average player).

There needed to be something in between…in my opinion anyway and apparently Anets.

They probably would have had another tier at launch if they didn’t want to release before MoP (that’s my opinion not fact). But they released when they felt they had to, as any business would.

I’m pretty sure most people think the game wasn’t ready, with broken quest chains etc.

I’m also pretty sure they spoke about ascended gear before launch and never annouced it, because it wasn’t ready to go into the game.

The whole debacle could have probably been avoided if Anet were better at communicating.

Vayne,

There was something in between exotics and legendaries.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Forge/Equipment

People just weren’t satisfied with purely cosmetic progression.

lordkrall.7241:

If you had paid attention to a single thing other than just a video released several years before the game, you would have been fully aware about any things that might have changed (or had been clarified since people did seem to misunderstand things quite a bit.).

They can communicate all they want, but if the players don’t even bother looking at said communication it is utterly pointless.

Did YOU pay attention to a single thing other than just a video? Like, at all? If you did, then you’ve got some pretty selective standards when it comes to defending ArenaNet in regards to them doubling back on the things they said leading up to this game’s launch.

The manifesto created a fresh, fun game that I played for over a year before abandoning. Sure I overspent on gems but now i’m overspending on other games.
ascended vs exotic – for me the grinding was annoying but doable but ascended falls over when it comes to patches/build changes. You can’t quickly change from rabid to rampagers then zerker as builds/patches change traits without serious time issues and alts? dead in the water.
Exotic enabled you to explore new builds and change quickly when a nerf happened to a build. It was widely available using multiple currencies.
Ascended (and legendary next) effectively ties you to one build as the investment to get that armour is large.

TooBz.3065:

Vayne,

There was something in between exotics and legendaries.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Forge/Equipment

People just weren’t satisfied with purely cosmetic progression.

I . . . was not even aware these things existed. I thought Mystic Coins were just used for Clovers.

darkace.8925:

Did YOU pay attention to a single thing other than just a video? Like, at all? If you did, then you’ve got some pretty selective standards when it comes to defending ArenaNet in regards to them doubling back on the things they said leading up to this game’s launch.

Yes, I watched all videos and read every interview, and thus I was fully aware that the game would not be exactly like their original intent were.

As for changes made after release I have been annoyed by a few, but since they have actually motivated them (good enough in my eyes) I still don’t have too much of an issue with said changes, since I can see how it is useful for the game as a whole.

Gear progression is fun if you are doing new content to get it.

The real problem with gear progression, and why it becomes “grindy” in people’s minds, is that one must repeat content to accumulate…whatever (dungeon currencies, laurels, badges of honor, whatever)…in order to get it.

Now, before I bought this game, I was actually under the impression that I’d be able to spend Karma to get any gear I needed – I didn’t care how expensive they were, because I knew that if I just kept playing the content that I enjoyed, I’d eventually be able to get whatever I wanted.

And that is where the disappointment comes from – I have to REPEAT content endlessly to get the gear I need to move on.

Now, if Anet either included a truly epic amount of new content that provided whatever currencies I needed to get any gear I wanted, OR expanded the options currently available for getting those currencies (leaving the cash shop aside), then this grinding problem wouldn’t be…..

In other words, the problem arises from Anet forcing you to play content you may not want to in order to obtain something you feel you need.

Let us play the way we want – if I want to go “grind” in Frostgorge Sound for a week, why can’t I use whatever “currency” I find there to get Ascalonian weapons? Or whatever, you see my point right?

It’s about being forced to do one particular thing to get what you want, without options to play how and where you want to.

Just make Karma a universal currency that can be used to buy any of the gear sets.

As far as Ascended goes, I kind of like the idea that they can only be obtained with hard work – but I’d like to see alternative methods of acquiring them (that are just as time consuming) aside from crafting. Not everyone loves crafting, so how about 1 or 2 optional methods of getting them?

lordkrall.7241:

If you had paid attention to a single thing other than just a video released several years before the game, you would have been fully aware about any things that might have changed (or had been clarified since people did seem to misunderstand things quite a bit.).

They can communicate all they want, but if the players don’t even bother looking at said communication it is utterly pointless.

As has been said before all the communication before launch supported the philosophy that many attribute to the manifesto or at least didn’t contradict it. The claimed clarifications of the manifesto really don’t hold up in terms of supporting your position.

TooBz.3065:

People just weren’t satisfied with purely cosmetic progression.

Or as has been stated before the cosmetic progression wasn’t extensive enough to support an endgame cosmetic progression system.

From the manifesto:

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

The operative word here is ‘force’. There is no content in this game where you are forced to get on that grind treadmill. You can hit level 80, buy some rare/exotic gear, and tackle any content in the game. That’s the point.

If you want to get that really cool skin, or be the best in Fractals or dominate WvW, then you’re going to have to grind for it. However, that’s not what the manifesto is saying. The manifesto is saying that you don’t have to grind to have fun; you don’t have to grind to experience any of the game content.

This is different than, say, World of Warcraft where you have to grind out your Tier 314,230,118 level Warrior armor and weapons in order to be able to go raid Bahamut’s Belly Button (25 man).

The skin rewards and backpacks and minipets and ascended gear – none of that is necessary to enjoy the game content.

However, if you want those cool things or those rare things or the best items or to be the best in WvW, then, yes, they are available, but they come at a cost. That cost is a grind. However, that is palpably different than content that is simply unavailable to you unless you grind.

@tobias: never intended to insult nobody here. and..“seriously” i can’t find a single line where i insulted anybody. maybe rude or gruff is a proper definition. sorry if you felt insulted by anything.
really really hope that what we write has an influence on the sancta sanctorum, but reason says there is no way of changing the way things go. it’s just a time for bitterness.

TooBz.3065:

Vayne,

There was something in between exotics and legendaries.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Forge/Equipment

People just weren’t satisfied with purely cosmetic progression.

i loved that skins T.T i worked for it. really enjoyed it. because it was a “free choice”.
the feeling that doing it or just ignoring that event/skin/etc doesn’t give any little impact on combat.

Thedenofsin.7340:

If you want to get that really cool skin, or be the best in Fractals or dominate WvW, then you’re going to have to grind for it. However, that’s not what the manifesto is saying. The manifesto is saying that you don’t have to grind to have fun; you don’t have to grind to experience any of the game content……..

However, that is palpably different than content that is simply unavailable to you unless you grind.

true…part of it.
still, the “dominate WvW or be best in fractals” part is, for me and many others, a “game content”.

Thedenofsin.7340:

The operative word here is ‘force’. There is no content in this game where you are forced to get on that grind treadmill. You can hit level 80, buy some rare/exotic gear, and tackle any content in the game. That’s the point.

If you want to get that really cool skin, or be the best in Fractals or dominate WvW, then you’re going to have to grind for it. However, that’s not what the manifesto is saying. The manifesto is saying that you don’t have to grind to have fun; you don’t have to grind to experience any of the game content.

This is different than, say, World of Warcraft where you have to grind out your Tier 314,230,118 level Warrior armor and weapons in order to be able to go raid Bahamut’s Belly Button (25 man).

The skin rewards and backpacks and minipets and ascended gear – none of that is necessary to enjoy the game content.

However, if you want those cool things or those rare things or the best items or to be the best in WvW, then, yes, they are available, but they come at a cost. That cost is a grind. However, that is palpably different than content that is simply unavailable to you unless you grind.

The moment you put a stat difference on it, it becomes required. You can argue about that all you want, but you will be wrong.