Guild Wars 2

Phantom.8130:

i’m well aware of what happened to CoH, and i never said that it had “nothing to do witht eh stock drop at all” which was why i asked if you had actually read what i wrote. because you invented things that were never said.

Sigh.

" in fact, if you take a look at the NCsoft’s financial report, when they announced ascended gear in november, their stock value plummeted. "

Those are your words.

“given that gw2 was the most publicized project of theirs at the time, and the massive disapproval of the direction it took (as displayed by the sheer amount of public outcry on these very forums), one would have to be blind not to see the relation the two things have with each other. it’s called deductive reasoning.”

Those are also your words. Note how you are “well aware” of what happened to Paragon Studios and their game but fail to mention it as being also subject to public outcry.

“they’re going to become very familiar with the company and the product, so if the company makes a decision that the public dislike, the stockbroker sell or short sell the stocks instead of losing their investment.”

Again, your words. While leaving it open there were other decisions, still focused on how Ascended and its outcry is to blame.

“it’s not presumptive at all. it’s understanding how stock trade works. entire companies have gone bankrupt due to single bad decisions”

Still focusing on a single choice, not any other circumstances.

“Something happened (the company moved their product in a clearly unpopular direction), it was bad (as displayed by the public outcry), and the stock dropped immediately.”

Applies just as much to the end of Paragon Studios and how efforts to try to keep things going failed. But then, this thread of conversation is about Ascended and therefore it must be that as the root cause?

So, really, I did read what you wrote, and all you had to do was admit anywhere the thing with Paragon Studios happened and explain why it wasn’t the case. Instead you ignored all but the most blatant reference to it and then said it didn’t matter and I didn’t understand you.

I understand your point. I just disagree with it owing to one and only one decision when there were other things going on at that time which could have accounted for it. I am not entirely sure, but were there other drops in stocks in other companies at that time? Was there a marketwide downward trend and NCsoft was caught in it? It couldn’t be other related issues to Guild Wars 2 such as the notable and exceedingly visible technical issues going on during Lost Shores ?

No, your insisting Ascended and the reaction to it in November has to be the sole cause.

Phantom.8130:

VOLKON.1290:

Phantom.8130:

VOLKON.1290:

Eh… no. Brokers aren’t trolling the GW2 forums trying to make decisions as to whether or not they should buy or sell NCSoft stock. First of all, Guild Wars 2 is only one piece of the puzzle… there are many games under the NCSoft umbrella. Secondly… what else happened in that time period that may have been significant?

if you don’t think that stockbrokers research the companies they’re going to invest their money in, then you should avoid that career choice like it’s the plague. an intelligent stockbroker, who wishes to remain a stockbroker, learns every detail that may impact their financial investment. if they didn’t, they might as well just go to vegas and put everything on red.

Don’t be ridiculous. Of course they research the companies. They look at numbers, facts and figures. They look at trends. They look at projected growth.

They don’t, however, troll the game forums of a subsidiary company to see if there’s an outcry over a decision the subsidiary company made in the game. (Hell, if they did that then ALL game companies would have stock that’s worthless!) When they’re looking at what ANet brings to the NCSoft fold they’re looking at the big picture, the actual data, facts and figures… not you and I and our differing opinions on something silly.

you don’t think that they’ll research what the public opinion of a product is? that’s what you’re arguing here. that stockbrokers weren’t looking into what the public opinion of the product of the company they had money invested in. the public opinion wasn’t limited to just these forums. it was in every potential source of consumer opinion. they’d have to have their heads buried in the sand not to know what the reaction was, and how prevalent it was. it was massive community outrage. if they weren’t aware of what it was, they were the one losing money. while the ones that actually researched the company and the product, and the public opinions revolving around said product, actually made money on the deal.

Investors do not divest or invest based on complaints on a web forum. They wait to see if the complainers will have a negative impact on the business’ performance before they pull their money out. Public opinion is a completely meaningless concept, until it negatively impacts the bottom line.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Phantom.8130:

i’m well aware of what happened to CoH, and i never said that it had “nothing to do witht eh stock drop at all” which was why i asked if you had actually read what i wrote. because you invented things that were never said.

Sigh.

" in fact, if you take a look at the NCsoft’s financial report, when they announced ascended gear in november, their stock value plummeted. "

Those are your words.

“given that gw2 was the most publicized project of theirs at the time, and the massive disapproval of the direction it took (as displayed by the sheer amount of public outcry on these very forums), one would have to be blind not to see the relation the two things have with each other. it’s called deductive reasoning.”

Those are also your words. Note how you are “well aware” of what happened to Paragon Studios and their game but fail to mention it as being also subject to public outcry.

“they’re going to become very familiar with the company and the product, so if the company makes a decision that the public dislike, the stockbroker sell or short sell the stocks instead of losing their investment.”

Again, your words. While leaving it open there were other decisions, still focused on how Ascended and its outcry is to blame.

“it’s not presumptive at all. it’s understanding how stock trade works. entire companies have gone bankrupt due to single bad decisions”

Still focusing on a single choice, not any other circumstances.

“Something happened (the company moved their product in a clearly unpopular direction), it was bad (as displayed by the public outcry), and the stock dropped immediately.”

Applies just as much to the end of Paragon Studios and how efforts to try to keep things going failed. But then, this thread of conversation is about Ascended and therefore it must be that as the root cause?

So, really, I did read what you wrote, and all you had to do was admit anywhere the thing with Paragon Studios happened and explain why it wasn’t the case. Instead you ignored all but the most blatant reference to it and then said it didn’t matter and I didn’t understand you.

I understand your point. I just disagree with it owing to one and only one decision when there were other things going on at that time which could have accounted for it. I am not entirely sure, but were there other drops in stocks in other companies at that time? Was there a marketwide downward trend and NCsoft was caught in it? It couldn’t be other related issues to Guild Wars 2 such as the notable and exceedingly visible technical issues going on during Lost Shores ?

No, your insisting Ascended and the reaction to it in November has to be the sole cause.

the entire drop happened in just over a week’s time. the week immediately after ascended gear was announced. there were other drops afterwards, but the timing of this drop directly coincided with the announcement of ascended gear.

mtpelion.4562:

Phantom.8130:

VOLKON.1290:

Phantom.8130:

VOLKON.1290:

Eh… no. Brokers aren’t trolling the GW2 forums trying to make decisions as to whether or not they should buy or sell NCSoft stock. First of all, Guild Wars 2 is only one piece of the puzzle… there are many games under the NCSoft umbrella. Secondly… what else happened in that time period that may have been significant?

if you don’t think that stockbrokers research the companies they’re going to invest their money in, then you should avoid that career choice like it’s the plague. an intelligent stockbroker, who wishes to remain a stockbroker, learns every detail that may impact their financial investment. if they didn’t, they might as well just go to vegas and put everything on red.

Don’t be ridiculous. Of course they research the companies. They look at numbers, facts and figures. They look at trends. They look at projected growth.

They don’t, however, troll the game forums of a subsidiary company to see if there’s an outcry over a decision the subsidiary company made in the game. (Hell, if they did that then ALL game companies would have stock that’s worthless!) When they’re looking at what ANet brings to the NCSoft fold they’re looking at the big picture, the actual data, facts and figures… not you and I and our differing opinions on something silly.

you don’t think that they’ll research what the public opinion of a product is? that’s what you’re arguing here. that stockbrokers weren’t looking into what the public opinion of the product of the company they had money invested in. the public opinion wasn’t limited to just these forums. it was in every potential source of consumer opinion. they’d have to have their heads buried in the sand not to know what the reaction was, and how prevalent it was. it was massive community outrage. if they weren’t aware of what it was, they were the one losing money. while the ones that actually researched the company and the product, and the public opinions revolving around said product, actually made money on the deal.

Investors do not divest or invest based on complaints on a web forum. They wait to see if the complainers will have a negative impact on the business’ performance before they pull their money out. Public opinion is a completely meaningless concept, until it negatively impacts the bottom line.

this has nothing do with a web forum. it was just an immediate source that i could site that everyone is familiar with. the public opinion wasn’t contained in this forum as though it were a vaccuum. public opinion is never a meaningless concept when it deal with a very significant change in direction that would cause a large loss of customers. research involves knowing the public opinions beforehand, to know what the customers want and expect. then if something significant changes, they can act immediately or even beforehand if indication of that change is shown. if the change does happen, anything resembling a public outcry screams “sell”. because that means a loss of customers, which translates to a loss of profits.

Phantom.8130:

this has nothing do with a web forum. it was just an immediate source that i could site that everyone is familiar with. the public opinion wasn’t contained in this forum as though it were a vaccuum. public opinion is never a meaningless concept when it deal with a very significant change in direction that would cause a large loss of customers. research involves knowing the public opinions beforehand, to know what the customers want and expect. then if something significant changes, they can act immediately or even beforehand if indication of that change is shown. if the change does happen, anything resembling a public outcry screams “sell”. because that means a loss of customers, which translates to a loss of profits.

This has everything to do with the web forum. The less than 1% of GW2 players who frequent this site are the sole source of the complaints. Any articles that carried those complaints out into the rest of the media used the complaints on this forum as their basis.

No one sold NCsoft stock because of a handful of complainers who believe themselves to be in the majority.

mtpelion.4562:

Phantom.8130:

this has nothing do with a web forum. it was just an immediate source that i could site that everyone is familiar with. the public opinion wasn’t contained in this forum as though it were a vaccuum. public opinion is never a meaningless concept when it deal with a very significant change in direction that would cause a large loss of customers. research involves knowing the public opinions beforehand, to know what the customers want and expect. then if something significant changes, they can act immediately or even beforehand if indication of that change is shown. if the change does happen, anything resembling a public outcry screams “sell”. because that means a loss of customers, which translates to a loss of profits.

This has everything to do with the web forum. The less than 1% of GW2 players who frequent this site are the sole source of the complaints. Any articles that carried those complaints out into the rest of the media used the complaints on this forum as their basis.

No one sold NCsoft stock because of a handful of complainers who believe themselves to be in the majority.

the complaints weren’t limited solely to this forum. there was a large negative buzz created. anyone paying attention to the company would be well aware of it, and would have a pretty good idea on what the impact would be. would it cripple the company? no. would it damage profits, yes. if it there wasn’t negative buzz that would damage their profits, they wouldn’t have scrambled to do damage control. however, they did.

Phantom.8130:

mtpelion.4562:

Phantom.8130:

this has nothing do with a web forum. it was just an immediate source that i could site that everyone is familiar with. the public opinion wasn’t contained in this forum as though it were a vaccuum. public opinion is never a meaningless concept when it deal with a very significant change in direction that would cause a large loss of customers. research involves knowing the public opinions beforehand, to know what the customers want and expect. then if something significant changes, they can act immediately or even beforehand if indication of that change is shown. if the change does happen, anything resembling a public outcry screams “sell”. because that means a loss of customers, which translates to a loss of profits.

This has everything to do with the web forum. The less than 1% of GW2 players who frequent this site are the sole source of the complaints. Any articles that carried those complaints out into the rest of the media used the complaints on this forum as their basis.

No one sold NCsoft stock because of a handful of complainers who believe themselves to be in the majority.

the complaints weren’t limited solely to this forum. there was a large negative buzz created. anyone paying attention to the company would be well aware of it, and would have a pretty good idea on what the impact would be. would it cripple the company? no. would it damage profits, yes. if it there wasn’t negative buzz that would damage their profits, they wouldn’t have scrambled to do damage control. however, they did.

How, exactly, would it damage profits?

This is not a sub-based game. That means that the people who threaten to leave would only be causing a potential loss of profits based on their collective gem-buying likelihood.

It stands to reason that most of the people who would threaten to leave over something as trivial as Ascended gear are not the kinds of people who regularly buy anything from the gem store. Even if they were, the people who are not leaving are more likely to buy more gems now in order to convert to gold to complete their Ascended gear set which means that the complaints would have no negative impact on the profits in either scenario.

Fact is, the world does not revolve around the few people who complained about Ascended gear. While Ascended gear is a HUGE issue to a very small segment of people (making them the loudest on the issue) it is a NON-issue to the majority of players who simply log on and have fun.

Honestly, it is much more likely that what was NOT announced had a greater impact on the stock prices than Ascended gear ever could.

don t know a kitten about economy.
i won t even try to talk about it but…my 2 cents
i think that it s not a handful of complainers.
of the 15friends i bought gw2 with, i m the only one who logged in until the second half of 2013, and the only who’s here wasting his time with complaints. yes, it s a very limited experience.
but just because someone just ragequitted without whining here, doesn t mean that complainers are a little part of the whole gw2 owners

mtpelion.4562:

Phantom.8130:

mtpelion.4562:

Phantom.8130:

this has nothing do with a web forum. it was just an immediate source that i could site that everyone is familiar with. the public opinion wasn’t contained in this forum as though it were a vaccuum. public opinion is never a meaningless concept when it deal with a very significant change in direction that would cause a large loss of customers. research involves knowing the public opinions beforehand, to know what the customers want and expect. then if something significant changes, they can act immediately or even beforehand if indication of that change is shown. if the change does happen, anything resembling a public outcry screams “sell”. because that means a loss of customers, which translates to a loss of profits.

This has everything to do with the web forum. The less than 1% of GW2 players who frequent this site are the sole source of the complaints. Any articles that carried those complaints out into the rest of the media used the complaints on this forum as their basis.

No one sold NCsoft stock because of a handful of complainers who believe themselves to be in the majority.

the complaints weren’t limited solely to this forum. there was a large negative buzz created. anyone paying attention to the company would be well aware of it, and would have a pretty good idea on what the impact would be. would it cripple the company? no. would it damage profits, yes. if it there wasn’t negative buzz that would damage their profits, they wouldn’t have scrambled to do damage control. however, they did.

How, exactly, would it damage profits?

This is not a sub-based game. That means that the people who threaten to leave would only be causing a potential loss of profits based on their collective gem-buying likelihood.

It stands to reason that most of the people who would threaten to leave over something as trivial as Ascended gear are not the kinds of people who regularly buy anything from the gem store. Even if they were, the people who are not leaving are more likely to buy more gems now in order to convert to gold to complete their Ascended gear set which means that the complaints would have no negative impact on the profits in either scenario.

Fact is, the world does not revolve around the few people who complained about Ascended gear. While Ascended gear is a HUGE issue to a very small segment of people (making them the loudest on the issue) it is a NON-issue to the majority of players who simply log on and have fun.

Honestly, it is much more likely that what was NOT announced had a greater impact on the stock prices than Ascended gear ever could.

through gem store purchases. fewer overall customers, assuming same percentage of them buy gems both before and afterwards, results in smaller profit.

however, since it isn’t subscription based, those who are shelling out money would actually be more likely to pull out if they didn’t like the direction the product was heading. there’s no reason to pay for something you don’t want, afterall.

the end result would be fewer overall customers, and a smaller percentage of them paying money, resulting in larger losses.

as an aside, and certainly not directed towards you at all, it should be noted that developers really are just second bananas in everything. the parent companies are the ones who decide what does and doesn’t happen. the developers are left with two choices, do what the parent company says, or start looking for a new job. the parent companies don’t really care about the quality of their product, only the bottom line. it’s just dollar signs. how much it costs, and how much they can profit. EA is perfect example of a parent company running roughshod over development teams, pushing out poor products, and letting the developers take the heat while they laugh all the way to the bank. while NCSoft isn’t EA, that pattern of behavior is just par for the course in the industry. indie games avoid this, however are limited by the lack of development funds. programs like kickstarter can help with the funds, but it almost never can generate the same amount of money a large company like EA or NCSoft can invest. if development studios could get suitable funds, and full creative control, i believe the industry as a whole would benefit tremendously. possibly leading to a strange form of video game renaissance.

mtpelion.4562:

morrolan.9608:

Whats the difference between grind through dungeons and raids and grinding for materials? Both can be said to have access. The main difference is that in WoW it now takes much less time to get BiS than in GW2.

I think the biggest difference with regard to the WoW/GW2 grind comparison is that while you are playing GW2 you are slowly accumulating the item you want (be it through materials used to make it or gold used to buy it) whereas in WoW you are playing through an entire raid/dungeon looking for a single boss to RNG drop a specific item and hoping you win the Need roll. In GW2 your grind builds progress over time until you get the item while in WoW your grind is never rewarded until you randomly get the item.

WoW has tokens if you don’t get the drop.

In GW2 you can’t accumulate ascended mats until you reach level 80. I would also hazard an educated guess that there is no way in hell a light armor wearer would be able to accumulate the cloth required to make a full set ascended light armor in levelling from 1 to 80. I was accumulating silk scraps at level 80 for months before it was introduced and still had nowhere near the amount required.

morrolan.9608:

mtpelion.4562:

morrolan.9608:

Whats the difference between grind through dungeons and raids and grinding for materials? Both can be said to have access. The main difference is that in WoW it now takes much less time to get BiS than in GW2.

I think the biggest difference with regard to the WoW/GW2 grind comparison is that while you are playing GW2 you are slowly accumulating the item you want (be it through materials used to make it or gold used to buy it) whereas in WoW you are playing through an entire raid/dungeon looking for a single boss to RNG drop a specific item and hoping you win the Need roll. In GW2 your grind builds progress over time until you get the item while in WoW your grind is never rewarded until you randomly get the item.

WoW has tokens if you don’t get the drop.

In GW2 you can’t accumulate ascended mats until you reach level 80. I would also hazard an educated guess that there is no way in hell a light armor wearer would be able to accumulate the cloth required to make a full set ascended light armor in levelling from 1 to 80. I was accumulating silk scraps at level 80 for months before it was introduced and still had nowhere near the amount required.

^^
This. And there is no difference if you grind for mats in dungeons or you doing raids. At least raids are NEW content. And in both cases you have ACCESS to statistical BiS gear when reach max level.
Logical conclusion for “everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.”:
1. If meant as have access to BiS gear, than it’s a BS cause game is not different from any other on the market. Wasn’t worth even mentioning.
2. I meant as HAVE THE GEAR, that it’s a BS now after ascended patch. Still it was true after release.

Honestly, NCSOFT stock price was already sliding because A) it was horribly overvalued; B) new sources of income promised year after year hadn’t been realized; C) Blade & Soul which NCSOFT promoted as their next AION (which nearly double income for NCSOFT) fell on it’s face and didn’t bring in new income but looked as if it cannibalized income from NCSOFT’s existing MMO stable; D) the selloff came right after the 3rd quarter earnings were posted, showing C. Actually that showed that GW2 was the companies saving grace but there wasn’t a lot of confidence in either the western MMO markets or a cash shop only model so it was considered a flash in the pan. Of course now after five quarters with income numbers GW2 is still the #2 source of gaming income that opinion was changing.

TL:DR Investors got tired waiting for the big pay day to arrive dumped their shares starting in Oct 2011. 3Q12 earnings showed B&S was not like AION in it’s impact to income, as it was hyped to be.

Evelynddra.9265:

BeoErgon.9107:

During the CDI for vertical progression I asked many and many times for that question: will level cap increase?

Never got an answer.

I said each time that without that information, all the CDI on vertical progression was void and null. It’s an essential information to talk about progression and they never ever dared to answer.

Real great ideas in the vertical progression thread… but they are all void if they increase the level cap (which has been said elsewhere that they will do).

It is what baffles me about the CDI. It is supposed to be a conversation but they answered none of the questions players made. A conversation is supposed to be both ways.

I suppose that they had strict instructions not to talk about was going to be done, but anyways. Talking about vertical progression without that key information is useless.

This thread, and others like it, are exactly why ArenaNet wouldn’t directly answer that. That’s why we always get vague answers of soon in regards to content. Because once someone says something, people uphold it as law. Just like the comment in the interview about getting best gear before hitting 80.

It’s incredibly unfortunate, and presents a sort of catch-22. The community berates ArenaNet for not communicating, but then it tears them a new one when it doesn’t come excatly when and how it was said. Change is a part of MMOs. They’re not like console games. They don’t remain static. So you should always understand that whatever they say is subject to changes (pretty sure that’s in the terms and conditions too). Whenever and why ever.

I am most aware of this.
Still, talking about the vertical progression without knowing if the level cap was going to be increased or not was useless. Everything said was based on the current game and current lvl80 ascended. The comunity talked long, doing their best to make proposals, trying to bring the game to something better. If level 90 comes during the year everything is void and all those that contributed to the CDI will feel like clowns.

Why wait for the level increasing to come before asking the player how they feel about it? They did it with ascended and you can see the tearing it brought to the comunity.

It is their game and they are right to make the choices they feel are necessary. But hiding those changes until the end only brings frustration.

Clear comunication might raise questionning.
Bad communication only raises frustration and the feeling that they don’t care about us.

i think that a new level cap, soon or later, is a good option for the devs.
i believe than it will happen.

what about CDI?
it’s not bilateral communication.
it s like a poll….where devs ask about customers opinions…and period.
it’s not like a “blue post” with news.
there are no infos from anet until it’s too late

Kevan.8912:

i think that a new level cap, soon or later, is a good option for the devs.
i believe than it will happen.

what about CDI?
it’s not bilateral communication.
it s like a poll….where devs ask about customers opinions…and period.
it’s not like a “blue post” with news.
there are no infos from anet until it’s too late

They made another promise…
Ascended would be the last thing that made previous equipment obsolete.

That is uncompatible with level cap…..
Unless that is once again trustworthy as the manifesto….

But i think anything making old equiment obsolete another time would really cause a huge drop in the already plummeting population.

LordByron.8369:

They made another promise…
Ascended would be the last thing that made previous equipment obsolete.

No they didn’t. They said that they CURRENTLY DON’T HAVE ANY PLANS, nothing more, nothing less.

And Ascended does not make anything obsolete for that matter.

IMHO, obsolete= not BiS , so i think that yeah, exotics ARE obsolete.

but +1, they didn t promise that ascended is last tier.
(and it’s unlikely it will….at least will need infusions treadmill)
and also if they did, i would t believe it
as manifesto teaches.

lordkrall.7241:

LordByron.8369:

They made another promise…
Ascended would be the last thing that made previous equipment obsolete.

No they didn’t. They said that they CURRENTLY DON’T HAVE ANY PLANS, nothing more, nothing less.

And Ascended does not make anything obsolete for that matter.

read better….i don t have the link but its in the vertical CDI if i remember well…

Deny everything -.- as Always…..even what devs say

LordByron.8369:

lordkrall.7241:

LordByron.8369:

They made another promise…
Ascended would be the last thing that made previous equipment obsolete.

No they didn’t. They said that they CURRENTLY DON’T HAVE ANY PLANS, nothing more, nothing less.

And Ascended does not make anything obsolete for that matter.

read better….i don t have the link but its in the vertical CDI if i remember well…

Deny everything -.- as Always…..even what devs say

well, i m just as angry as you are!

but…my friend, everything devs stated means nothing.
for me, it was a promise and their word.
but if it was a promise in the beginning, now we do know that they deserve no trust.
if we stick to it, we’ll have only bad news.

all of us know exactly what the manifesto meant. but we must face the fact that there are no guarantees they ll respect anything they stated in the manifesto.

so i think that the answer to the OP is simple…manifesto is dead and buried.
and we can expect anything to happen

Kevan.8912:

i think that a new level cap, soon or later, is a good option for the devs.
i believe than it will happen.

what about CDI?
it’s not bilateral communication.
it s like a poll….where devs ask about customers opinions…and period.
it’s not like a “blue post” with news.
there are no infos from anet until it’s too late

I am sure we will see a level cap, from a-nets perspective it will make sense as any new or prospective customer will look at the amount of grind it would take to have bis and perhaps be put off, but with a level cap increase everyone starts fresh in new level cap greens etc. this also will make peeps who left gw2 think on logging in again to see whats changed and give the game another go.

This is pretty much what happens each new wow expansion and from a company stand point looks like it works.

It’s not what i want or im sure many others want, but are we now the minority?.

Kevan.8912:

LordByron.8369:

lordkrall.7241:

LordByron.8369:

They made another promise…
Ascended would be the last thing that made previous equipment obsolete.

No they didn’t. They said that they CURRENTLY DON’T HAVE ANY PLANS, nothing more, nothing less.

And Ascended does not make anything obsolete for that matter.

read better….i don t have the link but its in the vertical CDI if i remember well…

Deny everything -.- as Always…..even what devs say

well, i m just as angry as you are!

but…my friend, everything devs stated means nothing.
for me, it was a promise and their word.
but if it was a promise in the beginning, now we do know that they deserve no trust.
if we stick to it, we’ll have only bad news.

all of us know exactly what the manifesto meant. but we must face the fact that there are no guarantees they ll respect anything they stated in the manifesto.

so i think that the answer to the OP is simple…manifesto is dead and buried.
and we can expect anything to happen

I don’t believe you do know what the manifesto meant. There are people who disagree (and not just me).

So are you saying everyone who disagrees doesn’t know what it meant?

I believe most people misinterpreted the manifesto, because they have a previous idea of what they thought was meant by grind, even though the manifesto described what grind it was talking about and even though Colin used examples afterwards to clarify it.

People hear what they want to hear, but that doesn’t make it truth.

No vayne just people who want to find an excuse for the switch and bait are trying to misinterpret it AFTERWARD.

if you look at all the comments on the game before november 15 you ll have no doubt on what

EVERY SINGLE POST

understood about it….
Its time to find another tactic to promote your favourite game……this won t work

People are fully aware that a bait and switch is illegal right?

And if you truly believe this to be a case of bait and switch, drag them to court. If you are correct, you will win, and since people keep spamming about it being B&S one would assume they are quite sure that it is indeed the case.

So either drag them to court, or stop spamming blatantly false accusations.

LordByron.8369:

No vayne just people who want to find an excuse for the switch and bait are trying to misinterpret it AFTERWARD.

if you look at all the comments on the game before november 15 you ll have no doubt on what

EVERY SINGLE POST

understood about it….
Its time to find another tactic to promote your favourite game……this won t work

I find it sad that you continue to resort to personal attacks, when in fact, the words in the manifesto are perfectly clear.

Yes, the direction of this game changed. No, that has nothing to do with what was said in the manifesto.

Insisting something is true doesn’t make it true.

Edit: Bait and switch doesn’t mean what you’re saying it means either by the way. Bait and switch involved a company advertising one product and substituting a different product when you go in to buy it. Like advertising one TV, which ends up not being in stock, and trying to switch people to a different TV.

Bait and switch never refers to a company saying something and changing what they said. That would be false advertising, a completely different issue.

You’d lose that one in court too.

dear god…please it’s enough about court, promise, illegal, false advertis. …etc

-some of us, such as…me, saw in the manifesto a promise and then now feel betrayed.
-some of you don’t. good for you, of course.

the actual point is: although it was promises or not, does manifesto still apply to the future?
imho, the answer is not.
there will be again gear progression? yes, it could happen.
grind? here it is

so…the only thing to do is: (for “haters”)
ask anet to stop the progression. and also grinding and the mandatory crafting way to get ascended.

and also if devs don t give a kitten to what we write here, i’ll continue to express my opinion: that gw2 has become something i don’t like, and would came back to game if some of these things change.
if you agree, support who has the same ideas

krall and someone else like the game as is it now?
write on the forum that you like it as it is and you could leave the game if it goes backwards.
that’s all.
stop trying to prove wrong others’ preferences just to give authority to what you like in the game.

Kevan.8912:

dear god…please it’s enough about court, promise, illegal, false advertis. …etc

-some of us, such as…me, saw in the manifesto a promise and then now feel betrayed.
-some of you don’t. good for you, of course.

the actual point is: although it was promises or not, does manifesto still apply to the future?
imho, the answer is not.
there will be again gear progression? yes, it could happen.
grind? here it is

so…the only thing to do is: (for “haters”)
ask anet to stop the progression. and also grinding and the mandatory crafting way to get ascended.

and also if devs don t give a kitten to what we write here, i’ll continue to express my opinion: that gw2 has become something i don’t like, and would came back to game if some of these things change.
if you agree, support who has the same ideas

krall and someone else like the game as is it now?
write on the forum that you like it as it is and you could leave the game if it goes backwards.
that’s all.
stop trying to prove wrong others’ preferences just to give authority to what you like in the game.

My point is, the things you’re saying are being said in the manifesto simply aren’t being said. There is not one single word about gear grind in the manifesto video. There is not one single mention of vertical progression in the manifesto.

If you dislike these things, and you’re perfectly entitled to dislike them, it’s not really relevant to this conversation.

The manifesto really is clear if you enter it without preconceptions. It’s only not clear when you start taking parts of it out of context.

There is precisely one part of the manifesto I’d say was pretty much dead wrong. “Everything you love about Guild Wars 1”. That line is obviously not true.

But everything else…by all means, complain about vertical progression. But stop saying the manifesto talks about it, because you lose credibility and your complaints then don’t carry the same weight.

I’m against vertical progression. I don’t like ascended gear.

But the manifesto refers to neither of those things.

lordkrall.7241:

People are fully aware that a bait and switch is illegal right?

And if you truly believe this to be a case of bait and switch, drag them to court. If you are correct, you will win, and since people keep spamming about it being B&S one would assume they are quite sure that it is indeed the case.

So either drag them to court, or stop spamming blatantly false accusations.

You do know in the terms and conditions which you must agree with and sign on installation, we own nothing and everything is subject to change.

A-net don’t even guarantee a service, and can cancel or change your account without notice or reason.

mesme.5028:

lordkrall.7241:

People are fully aware that a bait and switch is illegal right?

And if you truly believe this to be a case of bait and switch, drag them to court. If you are correct, you will win, and since people keep spamming about it being B&S one would assume they are quite sure that it is indeed the case.

So either drag them to court, or stop spamming blatantly false accusations.

You do know in the terms and conditions which you must agree with and sign on installation, we own nothing and everything is subject to change.

A-net don’t even guarantee a service, and can cancel or change your account without notice or reason.

The TOS is not legally binding and is overwritten by local laws. Companies don’t write laws, and they don’t write consumer laws. You have certain protections, which vary depending on where you live.

It doesn’t matter what the TOS says. If you’ve been lied to, you’d be entitled to a refund…nothing more than that though.

And since Anet has one of the most generous refund policies I’ve seen for any software (people were given refunds many months after they bought the game), you’d have no legal recourse at all in this instance, because the matter is being dealt with equitably.

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

lordkrall.7241:

People are fully aware that a bait and switch is illegal right?

And if you truly believe this to be a case of bait and switch, drag them to court. If you are correct, you will win, and since people keep spamming about it being B&S one would assume they are quite sure that it is indeed the case.

So either drag them to court, or stop spamming blatantly false accusations.

You do know in the terms and conditions which you must agree with and sign on installation, we own nothing and everything is subject to change.

A-net don’t even guarantee a service, and can cancel or change your account without notice or reason.

The TOS is not legally binding and is overwritten by local laws. Companies don’t write laws, and they don’t write consumer laws. You have certain protections, which vary depending on where you live.

It doesn’t matter what the TOS says. If you’ve been lied to, you’d be entitled to a refund…nothing more than that though.

And since Anet has one of the most generous refund policies I’ve seen for any software (people were given refunds many months after they bought the game), you’d have no legal recourse at all in this instance, because the matter is being dealt with equitably.

Yes consumer law gives some protection thou only within the allotted timescale, do you really think the terms and conditions are not legal? rly?

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

lordkrall.7241:

People are fully aware that a bait and switch is illegal right?

And if you truly believe this to be a case of bait and switch, drag them to court. If you are correct, you will win, and since people keep spamming about it being B&S one would assume they are quite sure that it is indeed the case.

So either drag them to court, or stop spamming blatantly false accusations.

You do know in the terms and conditions which you must agree with and sign on installation, we own nothing and everything is subject to change.

A-net don’t even guarantee a service, and can cancel or change your account without notice or reason.

The TOS is not legally binding and is overwritten by local laws. Companies don’t write laws, and they don’t write consumer laws. You have certain protections, which vary depending on where you live.

It doesn’t matter what the TOS says. If you’ve been lied to, you’d be entitled to a refund…nothing more than that though.

And since Anet has one of the most generous refund policies I’ve seen for any software (people were given refunds many months after they bought the game), you’d have no legal recourse at all in this instance, because the matter is being dealt with equitably.

Yes consumer law gives some protection thou only within the allotted timescale, do you really think the terms and conditions are not legal? rly?

They’re really not…in the sense that they’ve been tested in courts and invariably fail. That is to say, they’re there to protect the business, but if the business breaks a law, they won’t protect the business.

Guild Wars 2 offered people refunds six months after they bought the game. That should have been the end of it for those people. They played a game for months for free and now they’re free to find a game they like.

The terms and conditions are certainly legal. What they’re not is law.

To shorten this (ha, 10 pages, shorten, right) ANet lied. They took actions which went counter to what they had spent 5+ years advertising their upcoming game to be.

The other option, which some have put forward, is that they ALWAYS intended to make the changes they have – in that case, they’re guilty of years of false advertising.

Take your pick – either way, one cannot trust what the Devs are saying.

Kevan.8912:

dear god…please it’s enough about court, promise, illegal, false advertis. …etc

-some of us, such as…me, saw in the manifesto a promise and then now feel betrayed.
-some of you don’t. good for you, of course.

the actual point is: although it was promises or not, does manifesto still apply to the future?
imho, the answer is not.
there will be again gear progression? yes, it could happen.
grind? here it is

so…the only thing to do is: (for “haters”)
ask anet to stop the progression. and also grinding and the mandatory crafting way to get ascended.

and also if devs don t give a kitten to what we write here, i’ll continue to express my opinion: that gw2 has become something i don’t like, and would came back to game if some of these things change.
if you agree, support who has the same ideas

krall and someone else like the game as is it now?
write on the forum that you like it as it is and you could leave the game if it goes backwards.
that’s all.
stop trying to prove wrong others’ preferences just to give authority to what you like in the game.

You know… there’s only one paragraph in the Manifesto that even mentions the word “grind”.

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

Now, it can be argued that people choosing to grind for ascended gear (I’m not, just gathering what I need as I play) are grinding for a future fun reward. However there’s still a huge element of “play your own way” in the game here… you have the choice to try and grind out ascendeds as fast as you can… but if you’re not having fun doing that then you’re simply doing it wrong. You may hold the opinion that ascended gear obsoletes exotics, and I respect your right to hold opinions that are wrong, but the fact is that that is only true in your mind, not in the game itself.

The thing that indicates strongly to me that there won’t be a continuing treadmill is the corner ANet painted themselves into with ascended. By that, I mean this… it takes too much personal investment of resources and time for ascended to ever become disposable gear. This isn’t a WoW style of gear progression where the investments people put into the next tier are relatively insignificant (mostly time and whatever offerings to the RNG god they placed at their shrine at home)… comparatively speaking you invest a whole lot more into ascended. The time and gold requirements are huge in comparison. As a result people that spend months equipping their main alone in ascended would be dealt a significant blow by having that gear suddenly become superseded by a new tier. In a nutshell, adding a tier beyond ascended would have far too costly of an impact on far too many players. Besides that, it’s not really needed. They can add more challenging content tuned to our current gear… there’s no need to give the illusion of power by jacking up gear stats and mob stats simultaneously. Game design (with ascended) strongly indicates that ascended will remain the top tier for a good long time, hopefully indefinitely. Like increasing the level cap (another problem compounded by ascended), adding simply for the sake of adding doesn’t really fit in the GW2 paradigm.

stale.9785:

To shorten this (ha, 10 pages, shorten, right) ANet lied. They took actions which went counter to what they had spent 5+ years advertising their upcoming game to be.

The other option, which some have put forward, is that they ALWAYS intended to make the changes they have – in that case, they’re guilty of years of false advertising.

Take your pick – either way, one cannot trust what the Devs are saying.

Be specific. Show the exact quotes in the Manifesto (written during game development) where you believe they lied. Simply making an assertion is not a valid argument.

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

lordkrall.7241:

People are fully aware that a bait and switch is illegal right?

And if you truly believe this to be a case of bait and switch, drag them to court. If you are correct, you will win, and since people keep spamming about it being B&S one would assume they are quite sure that it is indeed the case.

So either drag them to court, or stop spamming blatantly false accusations.

You do know in the terms and conditions which you must agree with and sign on installation, we own nothing and everything is subject to change.

A-net don’t even guarantee a service, and can cancel or change your account without notice or reason.

The TOS is not legally binding and is overwritten by local laws. Companies don’t write laws, and they don’t write consumer laws. You have certain protections, which vary depending on where you live.

It doesn’t matter what the TOS says. If you’ve been lied to, you’d be entitled to a refund…nothing more than that though.

And since Anet has one of the most generous refund policies I’ve seen for any software (people were given refunds many months after they bought the game), you’d have no legal recourse at all in this instance, because the matter is being dealt with equitably.

Yes consumer law gives some protection thou only within the allotted timescale, do you really think the terms and conditions are not legal? rly?

They’re really not…in the sense that they’ve been tested in courts and invariably fail. That is to say, they’re there to protect the business, but if the business breaks a law, they won’t protect the business.

Guild Wars 2 offered people refunds six months after they bought the game. That should have been the end of it for those people. They played a game for months for free and now they’re free to find a game they like.

The terms and conditions are certainly legal. What they’re not is law.

Ofc t+c are not a law, but you do have an allotted timescale by consumer law upon purchase, within this time scale you can get your money back, when you agree to the t+c and are outwith this time scale you are bound by the t+c you agreed too, a-net went above and beyond what was required in offering people a refund, the didn’t have too.

Volkon, I suppose in fairness I should point out it’s not the manifesto so much as all the other interviews/blogs/in game chats/streams.

Ones wherein we were told that ALL players, including casuals, would be able to get BiS gear AT level 80. Ones where they extolled how wonderful having progression exist as pure cosmetic upgrades and personal skill gain would be.

I know that the quote about BiS gear has been presented repeatedly in this thread. Others about the amazing branching storyline (the one that actually reduces in complexity with each step) and the sense of being a great hero (or enabling the salad man to steal our thunder).

I am, frankly, too tired and lazy to dig up the clippings for the, oh, hundredth time. They’ve been quoted, over and over again, in all the threads about the manifesto and the game direction and how grind is bad. Grind isn’t bad, per se – but we were promised NO STAT GRIND. This is a HUGE part of why many people have bought the game.

Let’s face it, the ground has been covered before. People that share my viewpoint will most likely never purchase another Anet product, and I know that I, at the very least, will never believe what the dev’s say again.

Hell, I wouldn’t have posted here, except that I’m amazed that this particular conversation keeps happening. Perhaps it’s time that Anet makes a new advertisement, and tells the truth this time around.

“Amazing visuals? We’ve got them – the most gorgeous world in an MMO that exists to date. We’ll never give you a reason to visit it though.

Amazing, fluid combat? We’ve made a system for it, but we’ve introduced mechanics that make it entirely null.

Intense multiplayer combat? We’ve got that, but have made it in a way that rewards mindless zergball play, with no strategy beyond “press attack repeatedly”

Small scale skilled combat? We’ll have a venue for it, but only one game mode, and it will only have one real strategy to it.

We’ll have a gear system that will only reward people who grind incessantly, and even then, we’re going to time gate it and make it hideously expensive.

Specs to make you unique? How dare you wish to be different – between the 3 game modes, there are only 3 truly useful specs – anything else may work, but it will certainly not work well.

We’ve created something with amazing potential, and would far rather grub after gem sales than take any action to realise that potential"

Set the above to some epic music, with visuals that don’t actually appear anywhere in the game, and voila, we’ve got an advertisement.

VOLKON.1290:

stale.9785:

To shorten this (ha, 10 pages, shorten, right) ANet lied. They took actions which went counter to what they had spent 5+ years advertising their upcoming game to be.

The other option, which some have put forward, is that they ALWAYS intended to make the changes they have – in that case, they’re guilty of years of false advertising.

Take your pick – either way, one cannot trust what the Devs are saying.

Be specific. Show the exact quotes in the Manifesto (written during game development) where you believe they lied. Simply making an assertion is not a valid argument.

“Gw2 takes everything you love about gw1 and puts it into a persistent world”

mesme.5028:

“Gw2 takes everything you love about gw1 and puts it into a persistent world”

So basically making GW1 with prettier graphics and the ability to jump?
Because that is what would be required for them to take everything everyone loved about GW1. And then it would have been utterly pointless.

The main philosophy is still there, and that is more or less what that line talks about.

mesme.5028:

VOLKON.1290:

stale.9785:

To shorten this (ha, 10 pages, shorten, right) ANet lied. They took actions which went counter to what they had spent 5+ years advertising their upcoming game to be.

The other option, which some have put forward, is that they ALWAYS intended to make the changes they have – in that case, they’re guilty of years of false advertising.

Take your pick – either way, one cannot trust what the Devs are saying.

Be specific. Show the exact quotes in the Manifesto (written during game development) where you believe they lied. Simply making an assertion is not a valid argument.

“Gw2 takes everything you love about gw1 and puts it into a persistent world”

Unfortunately that line is highly subjective, and they did clarify that.

Do keep in mind that, as with many intentions, not everything pans out as it is planned. Also, keep in mind that language is an interesting animal. What one person means by what they say it not always what the other person listening interprets. This is why they had interviews and such to help clarify some of the phrasing they used.

Yes, there have been instances where they have said one thing, and then an action taking feels like like they are going back on what was said. However, this happens with businesses. They intend to do ‘a’ but it turns out for a myriad of reasons they need to do ‘b.’ We don’t have to be happy about it (gods know I’m not always), but we have to understand that we are not the ones in charge.

If you are so unhappy; if you feel so betrayed by the company, then do what other consumer’s do: write them an email voicing your thoughts and feelings, and then leave. No one is stopping you from moving on.

lordkrall.7241:

mesme.5028:

“Gw2 takes everything you love about gw1 and puts it into a persistent world”

So basically making GW1 with prettier graphics and the ability to jump?
Because that is what would be required for them to take everything everyone loved about GW1. And then it would have been utterly pointless.

The main philosophy is still there, and that is more or less what that line talks about.

It’s the one line in the entire manifesto I take exception to.

I mean it should be obvious that it’s not possible. What if different people loved different things about Guild Wars 1. Everyone knew there wouldn’t be heroes and there wouldn’t be as many skills. That’s sort of my point.

Anyone who saw that line, and didn’t know there wouldn’t be second professions…well those people didn’t really do enough research.

So if heroes, second professions and most forms of PvP weren’t to be included (and Anet was crystal clear about that), how could anyone take that line at face value?

lordkrall.7241:

mesme.5028:

“Gw2 takes everything you love about gw1 and puts it into a persistent world”

So basically making GW1 with prettier graphics and the ability to jump?
Because that is what would be required for them to take everything everyone loved about GW1. And then it would have been utterly pointless.

The main philosophy is still there, and that is more or less what that line talks about.

I didn’t say it, Mike O’Brien did.

mesme.5028:

I didn’t say it, Mike O’Brien did.

And you decided to understand that as making GW1 with prettier graphics and jumping?
Despite the fact that there were LOADS of interviews and blogs posted between that line and launch, which showed quite clearly that it would not be the case?

Vayne.8563:

lordkrall.7241:

mesme.5028:

“Gw2 takes everything you love about gw1 and puts it into a persistent world”

So basically making GW1 with prettier graphics and the ability to jump?
Because that is what would be required for them to take everything everyone loved about GW1. And then it would have been utterly pointless.

The main philosophy is still there, and that is more or less what that line talks about.

It’s the one line in the entire manifesto I take exception to.

I mean it should be obvious that it’s not possible.

So are you suggesting he wasn’t telling the truth?

Honestly, taking the exact GW1 world, the skill/attribute system (if not the plethora of skills) and adding making new quests, new stories, the current graphics and combat system?

Yep – I’d love that. Really I would. The gw2 combat system itself is amazing. The world is astoundingly pretty. The TP is a godsend. The skills/traits/gear system? It sucks diseased moose wang. The (snicker, laugh) story? It’s terribad. Really, it’s just bad. Crafting is possibly the worst system I’ve encountered in a game ever. Class balance is so broken it’s laughable.

The original Anet team had gold with GW1. Making improvements for the sequel would have been nice. From where I sit, they’ve torpedoed the franchise.

stale.9785:

Honestly, taking the exact GW1 world, the skill/attribute system (if not the plethora of skills) and adding making new quests, new stories, the current graphics and combat system?

Yep – I’d love that. Really I would. The gw2 combat system itself is amazing. The world is astoundingly pretty. The TP is a godsend. The skills/traits/gear system? It sucks diseased moose wang. The (snicker, laugh) story? It’s terribad. Really, it’s just bad. Crafting is possibly the worst system I’ve encountered in a game ever. Class balance is so broken it’s laughable.

The original Anet team had gold with GW1. Making improvements for the sequel would have been nice. From where I sit, they’ve torpedoed the franchise.

I can only agree.

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

lordkrall.7241:

mesme.5028:

“Gw2 takes everything you love about gw1 and puts it into a persistent world”

So basically making GW1 with prettier graphics and the ability to jump?
Because that is what would be required for them to take everything everyone loved about GW1. And then it would have been utterly pointless.

The main philosophy is still there, and that is more or less what that line talks about.

It’s the one line in the entire manifesto I take exception to.

I mean it should be obvious that it’s not possible.

So are you suggesting he wasn’t telling the truth?

I’m suggesting he was talking casually and not really expecting everyone to take it literally. It’s clearly marketing speech.

Things aren’t just true and false in the real world. There are shades of meaning. But I’m definitely saying it was an ill-advised thing to say.

At first I thought you were trolling everyone – now I realize you are serious.

Phantom, please stop. You have no idea what you are talking about. These statements are foolish and utterly preposterous!

You are claiming NCSoft’s stock value is directly tied to ascended gear. That’s completely ludicrous.

VOLKON.1290:

I think originally it was working more or less as intended, but people got them so quickly then were complaining about nothing more to shoot for gear-wise. (Not everyone has fully grasped the idea of working towards skins.) Ascended gear appeases to a degree many of the players that still seek gear progression yet does so in a subtle enough way (stat-wise) to not have any real impact on the game or the content. The time sink is fairly extensive, and when you consider alts people will be working on ascended sets for quite some time. By then new skins or ascended sets can be introduced with no actual stat increase or we could see Legendary gear (again with no stat increase, yet with added perks).

There’s one little thing wich is wrong in your argument… You’re assuming the existence of a category of players wich would be a mass of mindless drones looking for a + 1 on stats.
I guarantee you that even the old schooler of the old school MMO players doesn’t care about the “+1”, but looks for progressively challenging content tied with progressively better gear.
So no, ANet didn’t add the Ascendant treadmill (INB4 “there’s no treadmill”, there is, and it’s called infusions) to please the players who wanted vertical progression, because a number of those players already figured out that GW2 lack the basis for a proper vertical progression (wich is new gear = new content designed for said gear), so they already moved to games that does it better.
And even if it was the case, as i already asked in another thread, what once they got full ascendant?
On the other hands, another number of players who didn’t want a new tier of gear got kittened and left or are still here complaining.
The only players who are happy with the move ANet made are those who every time the devs does something that upset the community, runs and check every single word of the Manifesto and every other blog post, interview and what else, looking for a comma, or a word that could be turned into a “See? They planned it all along! They didn’t lie! I’m definitely ok with that!”.

Valanga.5942:

VOLKON.1290:

I think originally it was working more or less as intended, but people got them so quickly then were complaining about nothing more to shoot for gear-wise. (Not everyone has fully grasped the idea of working towards skins.) Ascended gear appeases to a degree many of the players that still seek gear progression yet does so in a subtle enough way (stat-wise) to not have any real impact on the game or the content. The time sink is fairly extensive, and when you consider alts people will be working on ascended sets for quite some time. By then new skins or ascended sets can be introduced with no actual stat increase or we could see Legendary gear (again with no stat increase, yet with added perks).

There’s one little thing which is wrong in your argument… You’re assuming the existence of a category of players which would be a mass of mindless drones looking for a + 1 on stats.

Ah, there’s your problem. You’re assuming there isn’t. When I raided in WoW you were constantly looking for that little plus here or there… it’s part of the min/max mentality. If there’s a plus 1 to be had, there’s a group of people that will go for it. Look up min/max if you’re not sure what I’m talking about.

Valanga.5942:

I guarantee you that even the old schooler of the old school MMO players doesn’t care about the “+1”, but looks for progressively challenging content tied with progressively better gear.

There are some, true. There are also others that check gear score before anything.

Valanga.5942:

So no, ANet didn’t add the Ascendant treadmill (INB4 “there’s no treadmill”, there is, and it’s called infusions) to please the players who wanted vertical progression, because a number of those players already figured out that GW2 lack the basis for a proper vertical progression (wich is new gear = new content designed for said gear), so they already moved to games that does it better.
And even if it was the case, as i already asked in another thread, what once they got full ascendant?
On the other hands, another number of players who didn’t want a new tier of gear got kittened and left or are still here complaining.
The only players who are happy with the move ANet made are those who every time the devs does something that upset the community, runs and check every single word of the Manifesto and every other blog post, interview and what else, looking for a comma, or a word that could be turned into a “See? They planned it all along! They didn’t lie! I’m definitely ok with that!”.

I’m seeing a lot of projection here. People comfortable with the changes don’t go running around looking for validation with the changes… it’s people with the ‘bash the game’ mentality that go picking through every uttered word or phrase in a feeble attempt to bash the game yelling “Liars! Liars!”. It’s completely ridiculous. If I’m going back through the manifesto it’s to demonstrate that the false accusations being tossed about against the game and the people who make it are full of guano, nothing more.

Thedenofsin.7340:

At first I thought you were trolling everyone – now I realize you are serious.

Phantom, please stop. You have no idea what you are talking about. These statements are foolish and utterly preposterous!

You are claiming NCSoft’s stock value is directly tied to ascended gear. That’s completely ludicrous.

i’m saying their stock value is tied to the customer’s opinions. if the customers don’t like what’s going on with the product, the customers won’t pay for it. if the customers aren’t paying, the company loses money. if the company is losing money, so too does the stock. if the stock is losing money, then it’s not wise to hold onto it. if you honestly can’t understand that, get someone else to handle your money.

Phantom.8130:

Thedenofsin.7340:

At first I thought you were trolling everyone – now I realize you are serious.

Phantom, please stop. You have no idea what you are talking about. These statements are foolish and utterly preposterous!

You are claiming NCSoft’s stock value is directly tied to ascended gear. That’s completely ludicrous.

i’m saying their stock value is tied to the customer’s opinions. if the customers don’t like what’s going on with the product, the customers won’t pay for it. if the customers aren’t paying, the company loses money. if the company is losing money, so too does the stock. if the stock is losing money, then it’s not wise to hold onto it. if you honestly can’t understand that, get someone else to handle your money.

And, as we have been educated by this person, there are absolutely no other factors which figure into stock value dropping than one subdivision of a company getting a limited form of bad press.

I mean, it’s like how all the overwhelmingly negative press over the last few years forced Electronic Arts to go out of business. Or the ton of reviews saying “these movies are crap” preventing the Transformers movies from making money . . .