Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And, as we have been educated by this person, there are absolutely no other factors which figure into stock value dropping than one subdivision of a company getting a limited form of bad press.

I mean, it’s like how all the overwhelmingly negative press over the last few years forced Electronic Arts to go out of business. Or the ton of reviews saying “these movies are crap” preventing the Transformers movies from making money . . .

the “absolutely no other factors” BS was NEVER said by me. that was someone else’s strawman that got pinned on me. if you don’t believe me, feel free to go back and read everything i said. the actual words, not any injected hidden meanings.

Phantom.8130:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And, as we have been educated by this person, there are absolutely no other factors which figure into stock value dropping than one subdivision of a company getting a limited form of bad press.

I mean, it’s like how all the overwhelmingly negative press over the last few years forced Electronic Arts to go out of business. Or the ton of reviews saying “these movies are crap” preventing the Transformers movies from making money . . .

the “absolutely no other factors” BS was NEVER said by me. that was someone else’s strawman that got pinned on me. if you don’t believe me, feel free to go back and read everything i said. the actual words, not any injected hidden meanings.

No, you never said it, but you always stick to “Ascended caused the stock drop” while dismissing anything else as irrelevant.

NCsoft is not only ArenaNet and Guild Wars 2. They were making questionable decisions before Ascended was announced by ArenaNet, in the eyes of a lot of other people than those who were busy making waves about Ascended. What happened with Paragon Studios was quite a bit more high profile and was more likely to make investors question things than Guild Wars 2.

That’s where I pointed out the myopia involved here. We’re all familiar with what happened with Ascended because we’re all playing Guild Wars 2 and thus we were here. We’re not necessarily familiar with or even aware of other aspects, so to simply stand on what we know and say “this is absolutely the reason” seems faulty.

You admit there are likely other contributing factors to the stock price drop, and I’ll shut up about it.

Bottom line: They wrote the manifesto, so they can breach the manifesto too. This world is full of double standards.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

you never said it

that’s all that matters. maybe you should start paying more attention to what people actually say, than inventing your own hidden meanings and arguing against your own delusions.

Phantom.8130:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

you never said it

that’s all that matters. maybe you should start paying more attention to what people actually say, than inventing your own hidden meanings and arguing against your own delusions.

If that’s all that matters, why do people get hung up on things ANet doesn’t say?

Anyway, I’d make more of a point from this about lots of people here arguing about their delusions of what might happen instead of what is happening but, really, where’s the use?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Phantom.8130:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

you never said it

that’s all that matters. maybe you should start paying more attention to what people actually say, than inventing your own hidden meanings and arguing against your own delusions.

If that’s all that matters, why do people get hung up on things ANet doesn’t say?

Anyway, I’d make more of a point from this about lots of people here arguing about their delusions of what might happen instead of what is happening but, really, where’s the use?

if you need to deflect it off to left field to save your ego on the internet, you go right ahead. we’re done here.

Once again you guys are getting caught up in the minutia and semantics and narrow-focused specifics. Big picture: they promoted the game as being X (and in my opinion, they delivered what they promoted). But then they reversed course and changed the game into whatever the opposite of X is, which is something they’d specifically and explicitly said Guild Wars 2 wouldn’t be.

Kevan.8912:

don t know a kitten about economy.
i won t even try to talk about it but…my 2 cents
i think that it s not a handful of complainers.
of the 15friends i bought gw2 with, i m the only one who logged in until the second half of 2013, and the only who’s here wasting his time with complaints. yes, it s a very limited experience.
but just because someone just ragequitted without whining here, doesn t mean that complainers are a little part of the whole gw2 owners

I wouldn’t make any claims regarding the economy either. I can only atest to my experience which includes multiple guilds dying out, all of my friends save 1 leaving the game forever just after the ascended fractal announcement. I was the only one to hold on for long long time before I finally got fed up myself.

NCSOFT UNVEILS ARENANET’S HIGHLY-ANTICIPATED COMPETITIVE ROLE PLAYING GAME, GUILD WARS

The thing that stings the most is the fact that they were able to deliver on their promises. . . what happened?

Judge Banks.9018:

NCSOFT UNVEILS ARENANET’S HIGHLY-ANTICIPATED COMPETITIVE ROLE PLAYING GAME, GUILD WARS

The thing that stings the most is the fact that they were able to deliver on their promises. . . what happened?

greed happened.

People hanging on every single word and then misinterpreting what was said based on their own preconceptions happened.

There is NO mention of gear grind or vertical progression in the manifesto video. None at all. The only way you could possibly think it was mentioned is to ignore everything around it.

What happened is people placed their own definition of grind into the manifesto and decided that’s what Colin meant when he was talking about grind, when in reality Colin already defined what he was talking about…and later clarified it in other places.

Vayne.8563:

People hanging on every single word and then misinterpreting what was said based on their own preconceptions happened.

There is NO mention of gear grind or vertical progression in the manifesto video. None at all. The only way you could possibly think it was mentioned is to ignore everything around it.

What happened is people placed their own definition of grind into the manifesto and decided that’s what Colin meant when he was talking about grind, when in reality Colin already defined what he was talking about…and later clarified it in other places.

Vayne, I’m sorry.

Nobody cares about that anymore. It’s been worked over, buried, dug back up to be re-examined, buried again in a chained casket, hauled up again to have DNA evidence tested, thrown in the ocean with weights, dredged from the depths next to Cthulhu’s headrest, subjected to psycological profiling, and shot into space . . .

And nobody saying the manifesto is a lie, or they failed to live up to it, is caring about what they said exactly. Or what they implied. Or what Colin said interviews later trying to explain about the combat.

There isn’t any point anymore to trying to talk about it other than “it exists”, “it is a video you can watch”, and “it mentions Guild Wars”. I mean, we can all discuss what we took away from it and how we feel it diverges, but trying to engage the people who want to go “it lied” is futile.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

People hanging on every single word and then misinterpreting what was said based on their own preconceptions happened.

There is NO mention of gear grind or vertical progression in the manifesto video. None at all. The only way you could possibly think it was mentioned is to ignore everything around it.

What happened is people placed their own definition of grind into the manifesto and decided that’s what Colin meant when he was talking about grind, when in reality Colin already defined what he was talking about…and later clarified it in other places.

Vayne, I’m sorry.

Nobody cares about that anymore. It’s been worked over, buried, dug back up to be re-examined, buried again in a chained casket, hauled up again to have DNA evidence tested, thrown in the ocean with weights, dredged from the depths next to Cthulhu’s headrest, subjected to psycological profiling, and shot into space . . .

And nobody saying the manifesto is a lie, or they failed to live up to it, is caring about what they said exactly. Or what they implied. Or what Colin said interviews later trying to explain about the combat.

There isn’t any point anymore to trying to talk about it other than “it exists”, “it is a video you can watch”, and “it mentions Guild Wars”. I mean, we can all discuss what we took away from it and how we feel it diverges, but trying to engage the people who want to go “it lied” is futile.

I don’t know. I know most people don’t care but there are new people playing the game and therefore new people on the forum. By saying it, yet again, someone might see it and see the truth of the matter.

There are still some people who believe, really believe, the manifesto is talking about gear grind, and new people, having no counterpoint might believe it too.

So when I post, I’m not trying to change the mind of people who are stuck in a previously held belief. I’m giving new players the heads up that not everyone agrees with that assessement.

I like to think the topic of the 3 year old MMO commercial called “The Manifesto” is hooked up to an Asuran device that taps it for enough Ecto-Undeath Distillate to power the entire Necromancer class.

Nike.2631:

I like to think the topic of the 3 year old MMO commercial called “The Manifesto” is hooked up to an Asuran device that taps it for enough Ecto-Undeath Distillate to power the entire Necromancer class.

Best post of the entire thread. lol

Nike.2631:

I like to think the topic of the 3 year old MMO commercial called “The Manifesto” is hooked up to an Asuran device that taps it for enough Ecto-Undeath Distillate to power the entire Necromancer class.

And yet, Warriors still stomp them just like everyone else.

Solution: More necroposting.

stale.9785:

greed happened.

Deadlines happened. Employee salaries happened.

There are a lot of really laudable goals in the Manifesto, but that’s what they are – goals.

I’m sure they had tremendous excitement pursuing those ambitions, the best intentions towards delivering what they described… But there comes a time when you no longer get to tinker in the lab trying to solve problems that your peers in the industry have been wrestling with for years, when you have to ship what you’ve got.

They hit a lot of good notes with what they had. That they didn’t “solve the unsolveable” on a couple of fronts does not ruin a fairly masterfully done game for many of us. The cup is NOT full, but its certainly more than half full. It’s not what it aspired to be but it is good.

People wouldn’t complain so much if it weren’t.

Nike.2631:

That they didn’t “solve the unsolveable” on a couple of fronts does not ruin a fairly masterfully done game for many of us.

I heard you were meddlesome, Nike. But you do sometimes make good points.

What happens when they raise the level cap? we all know its going to happen.

There will be new tiers, greens perhaps to start with,
there is no way your ascended lvl80 will be much use, what then?
would that be in keeping with the manifesto also?

At what point will the ones who defend the manifesto ask,
what happened to the manifesto?

mesme.5028:

What happens when they raise the level cap? we all know its going to happen.

There will be new tiers, greens perhaps to start with,
there is no way your ascended lvl80 will be much use, what then?
would that be in keeping with the manifesto also?

At what point will the ones who defend the manifesto ask,
what happened to the manifesto?

Where does the manifesto video say there won’t be new tiers, or that there won’t be vertical progression?

As already pointed out,. there was vertical progression in the game AT LAUNCH. So if VP itself was a problem, people would have complained about it before the advent of ascended gear and the fractals.

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

What happens when they raise the level cap? we all know its going to happen.

There will be new tiers, greens perhaps to start with,
there is no way your ascended lvl80 will be much use, what then?
would that be in keeping with the manifesto also?

At what point will the ones who defend the manifesto ask,
what happened to the manifesto?

Where does the manifesto video say there won’t be new tiers, or that there won’t be vertical progression?

As already pointed out,. there was vertical progression in the game AT LAUNCH. So if VP itself was a problem, people would have complained about it before the advent of ascended gear and the fractals.

It says it here for me “Everything you love about gw1”

mesme.5028:

It says it here for me “Everything you love about gw1”

Ah, you mean those better versions of skills being released later on the the games life that required grinding points in order to power-up?
I am sure someone loved those as well.

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

What happens when they raise the level cap? we all know its going to happen.

There will be new tiers, greens perhaps to start with,
there is no way your ascended lvl80 will be much use, what then?
would that be in keeping with the manifesto also?

At what point will the ones who defend the manifesto ask,
what happened to the manifesto?

Where does the manifesto video say there won’t be new tiers, or that there won’t be vertical progression?

As already pointed out,. there was vertical progression in the game AT LAUNCH. So if VP itself was a problem, people would have complained about it before the advent of ascended gear and the fractals.

It says it here for me “Everything you love about gw1”

Oh I see. Well, let’s see.

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be secondary professions? Because they told us that (but there were secondary professions in Guild Wars 1).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be guild vs guild PvP (because they said so quite clearly).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be Elona or Cantha at launch? You should have, because it was stated.

In fact, there were many widely publicized things that weren’t in Guild Wars 2 that were in Guild Wars 1.

I have said often that that line is the only questionable line in the manifesto. However, it’s not specific enough to make a claim that nothing will change, because anyone following the game new about the myriad changes before the game launched.

Already having proved that one line to be questionable, we now have this situation where some people continue to believe this will be exactly the same game as Guild Wars 1 with a new skin.

It was never going to happen.

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

What happens when they raise the level cap? we all know its going to happen.

There will be new tiers, greens perhaps to start with,
there is no way your ascended lvl80 will be much use, what then?
would that be in keeping with the manifesto also?

At what point will the ones who defend the manifesto ask,
what happened to the manifesto?

Where does the manifesto video say there won’t be new tiers, or that there won’t be vertical progression?

As already pointed out,. there was vertical progression in the game AT LAUNCH. So if VP itself was a problem, people would have complained about it before the advent of ascended gear and the fractals.

It says it here for me “Everything you love about gw1”

Oh I see. Well, let’s see.

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be secondary professions? Because they told us that (but there were secondary professions in Guild Wars 1).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be guild vs guild PvP (because they said so quite clearly).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be Elona or Cantha at launch? You should have, because it was stated.

In fact, there were many widely publicized things that weren’t in Guild Wars 2 that were in Guild Wars 1.

I have said often that that line is the only questionable line in the manifesto. However, it’s not specific enough to make a claim that nothing will change, because anyone following the game new about the myriad changes before the game launched.

Already having proved that one line to be questionable, we now have this situation where some people continue to believe this will be exactly the same game as Guild Wars 1 with a new skin.

It was never going to happen.

Ok when told “Everything you love about gw1”
what exactly did we get apart from lore?
what didn’t we get?

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

What happens when they raise the level cap? we all know its going to happen.

There will be new tiers, greens perhaps to start with,
there is no way your ascended lvl80 will be much use, what then?
would that be in keeping with the manifesto also?

At what point will the ones who defend the manifesto ask,
what happened to the manifesto?

Where does the manifesto video say there won’t be new tiers, or that there won’t be vertical progression?

As already pointed out,. there was vertical progression in the game AT LAUNCH. So if VP itself was a problem, people would have complained about it before the advent of ascended gear and the fractals.

It says it here for me “Everything you love about gw1”

Oh I see. Well, let’s see.

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be secondary professions? Because they told us that (but there were secondary professions in Guild Wars 1).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be guild vs guild PvP (because they said so quite clearly).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be Elona or Cantha at launch? You should have, because it was stated.

In fact, there were many widely publicized things that weren’t in Guild Wars 2 that were in Guild Wars 1.

I have said often that that line is the only questionable line in the manifesto. However, it’s not specific enough to make a claim that nothing will change, because anyone following the game new about the myriad changes before the game launched.

Already having proved that one line to be questionable, we now have this situation where some people continue to believe this will be exactly the same game as Guild Wars 1 with a new skin.

It was never going to happen.

Ok when told “Everything you love about gw1”
what exactly did we get apart from lore?
what didn’t we get?

Exactly. You’re right. You’re 100% right. What did we get?

That’s the whole point. We KNEW we weren’t getting some of that stuff because Anet said so. We KNEW that the statement wasn’t true before the game ever game out. Anyone following the game new it was marketing pure and simple.

So, three years ago, in a video, a corporate execute makes an easily disproved statement and three years later, you’re still on about it.

How in the name of the six could you not have known long before launch that the statement was marketing? Why would you put any stock in that single line of a single video?

It’s like peopled watched the video and there was this power it had over them to make them ignore everything else said over the two years that followed.

Yes, the line was marketing pure and simple. So anyone who uses it to try to say something specific about the game…it’s completely pointless.

mesme.5028:

what didn’t we get?

Koss.

And this is such a major loss.

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

What happens when they raise the level cap? we all know its going to happen.

There will be new tiers, greens perhaps to start with,
there is no way your ascended lvl80 will be much use, what then?
would that be in keeping with the manifesto also?

At what point will the ones who defend the manifesto ask,
what happened to the manifesto?

Where does the manifesto video say there won’t be new tiers, or that there won’t be vertical progression?

As already pointed out,. there was vertical progression in the game AT LAUNCH. So if VP itself was a problem, people would have complained about it before the advent of ascended gear and the fractals.

It says it here for me “Everything you love about gw1”

Oh I see. Well, let’s see.

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be secondary professions? Because they told us that (but there were secondary professions in Guild Wars 1).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be guild vs guild PvP (because they said so quite clearly).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be Elona or Cantha at launch? You should have, because it was stated.

In fact, there were many widely publicized things that weren’t in Guild Wars 2 that were in Guild Wars 1.

I have said often that that line is the only questionable line in the manifesto. However, it’s not specific enough to make a claim that nothing will change, because anyone following the game new about the myriad changes before the game launched.

Already having proved that one line to be questionable, we now have this situation where some people continue to believe this will be exactly the same game as Guild Wars 1 with a new skin.

It was never going to happen.

Ok when told “Everything you love about gw1”
what exactly did we get apart from lore?
what didn’t we get?

Exactly. You’re right. You’re 100% right. What did we get?

That’s the whole point. We KNEW we weren’t getting some of that stuff because Anet said so. We KNEW that the statement wasn’t true before the game ever game out. Anyone following the game new it was marketing pure and simple.

So, three years ago, in a video, a corporate execute makes an easily disproved statement and three years later, you’re still on about it.

How in the name of the six could you not have known long before launch that the statement was marketing? Why would you put any stock in that single line of a single video?

It’s like peopled watched the video and there was this power it had over them to make them ignore everything else said over the two years that followed.

Yes, the line was marketing pure and simple. So anyone who uses it to try to say something specific about the game…it’s completely pointless.

So we are to take what the devs say as perhaps lies and just marketing?

mesme.5028:

So we are to take what the devs say as perhaps lies and just marketing?

Sure, if you like. I’m not going to stop you, feel free. The marketing isn’t what drew me into this game anyway.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

So we are to take what the devs say as perhaps lies and just marketing?

Sure, if you like. I’m not going to stop you, feel free. The marketing isn’t what drew me into this game anyway.

Id rather not, id refer you to the op, its why i asked, what happened to the manifesto.

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

So we are to take what the devs say as perhaps lies and just marketing?

Sure, if you like. I’m not going to stop you, feel free. The marketing isn’t what drew me into this game anyway.

Id rather not, id refer you to the op, its why i asked, what happened to the manifesto.

Well, I can only speculate, but let’s see. It was written, they sat the developers down in the studio while they were still bursting with ideas and hopes for what they might be able to do with the game. They had time to work on it, get it right.

Then they started working on it, and maybe a little snip here, a trim there to make something workable so they could start putting it together. And as they worked they realized “oh carp, this project might have been more ambitious than we thought” and stood staring at vast tracts of stuff they had ideas for but no actual way to do them yet. And that release window they’d hoped for was looming closer.

Driven, they began to hustle and get things ready so they could have something – anything – other than just talk to show people. And once that was done, everything had to start clicking into place. After all, you don’t want to be Duke Nukem Forever . . . you want to release sometime before people forget about the game.

Things slipped. Before Beta even happened there were things which needed to work and didn’t. Fix them, hurry so we can get moving. Beta Weekend Events are happening, get in there and see what’s broken. Sure sure we only have half a world ready and the Personal Story is still being hammered out . . . focus on what feedback we get then we can work further. Orr can wait.

. . . oops. We, um, we have a broken final battle. It’s not working. We need to fix this, we can’t go to release with a final battle where all the setpieces work but the final one. Quick, just make it work so it can be finished. We only have a couple months left. What’s that? What kind of gear? Nevermind, toss that idea on the pile of things we’ll get to it next month, just try to make sure this thing doesn’t crash.

Okay, we’re sure everything actually works right? Good, publish that build and let’s go back through bug reports. And someone start working on Halloween because that’s coming a month after we launch, we need to have something awesome for it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

So we are to take what the devs say as perhaps lies and just marketing?

Sure, if you like. I’m not going to stop you, feel free. The marketing isn’t what drew me into this game anyway.

Id rather not, id refer you to the op, its why i asked, what happened to the manifesto.

Well, I can only speculate, but let’s see. It was written, they sat the developers down in the studio while they were still bursting with ideas and hopes for what they might be able to do with the game. They had time to work on it, get it right.

Then they started working on it, and maybe a little snip here, a trim there to make something workable so they could start putting it together. And as they worked they realized “oh carp, this project might have been more ambitious than we thought” and stood staring at vast tracts of stuff they had ideas for but no actual way to do them yet. And that release window they’d hoped for was looming closer.

Driven, they began to hustle and get things ready so they could have something – anything – other than just talk to show people. And once that was done, everything had to start clicking into place. After all, you don’t want to be Duke Nukem Forever . . . you want to release sometime before people forget about the game.

Things slipped. Before Beta even happened there were things which needed to work and didn’t. Fix them, hurry so we can get moving. Beta Weekend Events are happening, get in there and see what’s broken. Sure sure we only have half a world ready and the Personal Story is still being hammered out . . . focus on what feedback we get then we can work further. Orr can wait.

. . . oops. We, um, we have a broken final battle. It’s not working. We need to fix this, we can’t go to release with a final battle where all the setpieces work but the final one. Quick, just make it work so it can be finished. We only have a couple months left. What’s that? What kind of gear? Nevermind, toss that idea on the pile of things we’ll get to it next month, just try to make sure this thing doesn’t crash.

Okay, we’re sure everything actually works right? Good, publish that build and let’s go back through bug reports. And someone start working on Halloween because that’s coming a month after we launch, we need to have something awesome for it.

You could be right, but id like to think they are professionals who made decisions on how the game would be put out rather than blind panic, and it would be nice to know how they arrived at these decisions.

mesme.5028:

You could be right, but id like to think they are professionals who made decisions on how the game would be put out rather than blind panic, and it would be nice to know how they arrived at these decisions.

“Blind panic” isn’t quite it.

I always got the impression with this game that they had made the Manifesto, got to work on the game, and discovered “well this is harder than we thought” and then said “start prioritizing what we can actually get done”.

Yes, these people are professionals. So were the people who made Daikatana way back in the age of ancient ones, speaking of missing what you were aiming for. Just a little.

I will confess that before I read the last few pages of this thread, I still harbored a tiny shred of resentment that ArenaNet employees aren’t more forthcoming about future plans for Guild Wars 2.

That shred is gone forever. The scales have fallen from my eyes. I really, really get it now. I repent.

From this moment forward, if anyone reading this should ever see me complain about ArenaNet not telling us more, or flat out lying about what they’ve said, or claiming to know their innermost thoughts, or arguing that only my interpretation of their words is the gospel truth, or insisting correlation equals causation, or that ArenaNet is staffed by lying, greedy, evil people, or otherwise net-lawyering them to death, then please, slap me.

Because I sure as kitten will have deserved it.

Majic.4801:

I will confess that before I read the last few pages of this thread, I still harbored a tiny shred of resentment that ArenaNet employees aren’t more forthcoming about future plans for Guild Wars 2.

That shred is gone forever. The scales have fallen from my eyes. I really, really get it now. I repent.

From this moment forward, if anyone reading this should ever see me complain about ArenaNet not telling us more, or flat out lying about what they’ve said, or claiming to know their innermost thoughts, or arguing that only my interpretation of their words is the gospel truth, or insisting correlation equals causation, or that ArenaNet is staffed by lying, greedy, evil people, or otherwise net-lawyering them to death, then please, slap me.

Because I sure as kitten will have deserved it.

Thanks for this.

Please don’t take it the wrong way but you’re still welcome to disagree with anything they put out. Or to criticize them for not making good on the Manifesto as you see it. It makes no difference to me whatsoever, I’m mostly over that stuff and just want people to either:

- Try, really try, to help make things better.
- Try out other games and see if they have what you’re missing from here.
or
- Please, if you have no interest in coming back or staying, keep it to yourself.

In the meantime, I’ve got work to do studying up on the game and figuring out if it’s even possible to make a game adhering to all these things people want in a decent budget.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

You could be right, but id like to think they are professionals who made decisions on how the game would be put out rather than blind panic, and it would be nice to know how they arrived at these decisions.

“Blind panic” isn’t quite it.

I always got the impression with this game that they had made the Manifesto, got to work on the game, and discovered “well this is harder than we thought” and then said “start prioritizing what we can actually get done”.

Yes, these people are professionals. So were the people who made Daikatana way back in the age of ancient ones, speaking of missing what you were aiming for. Just a little.

At least we agree somewhat the manifesto doesn’t really hold up.

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

What happens when they raise the level cap? we all know its going to happen.

There will be new tiers, greens perhaps to start with,
there is no way your ascended lvl80 will be much use, what then?
would that be in keeping with the manifesto also?

At what point will the ones who defend the manifesto ask,
what happened to the manifesto?

Where does the manifesto video say there won’t be new tiers, or that there won’t be vertical progression?

As already pointed out,. there was vertical progression in the game AT LAUNCH. So if VP itself was a problem, people would have complained about it before the advent of ascended gear and the fractals.

It says it here for me “Everything you love about gw1”

Oh I see. Well, let’s see.

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be secondary professions? Because they told us that (but there were secondary professions in Guild Wars 1).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be guild vs guild PvP (because they said so quite clearly).

Did you know before Guild Wars 2 launched that there wouldn’t be Elona or Cantha at launch? You should have, because it was stated.

In fact, there were many widely publicized things that weren’t in Guild Wars 2 that were in Guild Wars 1.

I have said often that that line is the only questionable line in the manifesto. However, it’s not specific enough to make a claim that nothing will change, because anyone following the game new about the myriad changes before the game launched.

Already having proved that one line to be questionable, we now have this situation where some people continue to believe this will be exactly the same game as Guild Wars 1 with a new skin.

It was never going to happen.

Ok when told “Everything you love about gw1”
what exactly did we get apart from lore?
what didn’t we get?

Exactly. You’re right. You’re 100% right. What did we get?

That’s the whole point. We KNEW we weren’t getting some of that stuff because Anet said so. We KNEW that the statement wasn’t true before the game ever game out. Anyone following the game new it was marketing pure and simple.

So, three years ago, in a video, a corporate execute makes an easily disproved statement and three years later, you’re still on about it.

How in the name of the six could you not have known long before launch that the statement was marketing? Why would you put any stock in that single line of a single video?

It’s like peopled watched the video and there was this power it had over them to make them ignore everything else said over the two years that followed.

Yes, the line was marketing pure and simple. So anyone who uses it to try to say something specific about the game…it’s completely pointless.

So we are to take what the devs say as perhaps lies and just marketing?

You can take it how you like. Some of us know the difference between an obvious non-specific marketing line and an actual product.

Two years before an MMO ships, a dev says something about an intention which is what a manifesto is. Two years is a really REALLY long time during a development process. Many things can change.

Devs are always going to try to talk up their product. But it was one line. There are hours and hours and hours of stuff that was said as well. And you know, due to changes some of that isn’t true either…because things change in project management all the time.

There’s also a difference between literal and figurative speech. Maybe everything Mike O’Brien loved about Guild Wars 1 is in the game and he didn’t know you’d love other things.

I was sold on the game by hours and hours of interviews and videos. If you were sold on the game by one unlikely line… well there’s not much I can say about that.

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

You could be right, but id like to think they are professionals who made decisions on how the game would be put out rather than blind panic, and it would be nice to know how they arrived at these decisions.

“Blind panic” isn’t quite it.

I always got the impression with this game that they had made the Manifesto, got to work on the game, and discovered “well this is harder than we thought” and then said “start prioritizing what we can actually get done”.

Yes, these people are professionals. So were the people who made Daikatana way back in the age of ancient ones, speaking of missing what you were aiming for. Just a little.

At least we agree somewhat the manifesto doesn’t really hold up.

. . . I never expected it to adhere to 100% of the ideas being submitted and talked about that early on. Or any of the fan conclusions reached by these things.

Just to pick one lovely detail everyone was talking about as a “filthy lie”? The combat was definitely going to involve swinging a sword more than once. Just a hunch.

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

You could be right, but id like to think they are professionals who made decisions on how the game would be put out rather than blind panic, and it would be nice to know how they arrived at these decisions.

“Blind panic” isn’t quite it.

I always got the impression with this game that they had made the Manifesto, got to work on the game, and discovered “well this is harder than we thought” and then said “start prioritizing what we can actually get done”.

Yes, these people are professionals. So were the people who made Daikatana way back in the age of ancient ones, speaking of missing what you were aiming for. Just a little.

At least we agree somewhat the manifesto doesn’t really hold up.

I agree (and even in this thread stated) that there is one line in the manifesto that can be questioned. The manifesto has X number of lines. That means the manifesto is more than 90% true, which means it can hold up.

Of course it holds up. It’s a statement of intent, not a promise of delivery. If they delivered 70-80% of what it says it holds up.

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

You’re probably right. It’s just amazing to me that people aren’t getting the whole changing thing, even after Anet made an entire blog post about iteration, and used iteration is just about every blog post for months on end.

I’d have thought that the concept of iteration means trying different things, seeing what works, discarding what doesn’t…particularly if Anet made a point of saying that they’ve thrown out entire systems if they see them not working.

It’s amazing how many people can quote a single line of the manifesto while ignoring an entire blog post.

Vayne.8563:

It’s amazing how many people can quote a single line of the manifesto while ignoring an entire blog post.

Not really, if more people saw the first than the latter.

I don’t want the message to be “shut up, we don’t want you” or “we’re going to ignore you til you go away”.

I want the message to be “then help us try to get to where you think the game should be”.

The problem is, I didn’t ressurect this thread, other people started posting in it again and without any contrary view point, the last several posts are all saying stuff that was said earlier in the thread.

New players come on and read the last couple of posts and then think they’ve learned something. Unfortunately, in this case, they’d have learned something that isn’t the full truth, so I post.

but as it has become a fight fire with fire…
i can answer that also gear grind compulsion (that thousand hours in few months) is a illness. and indeed it is.
as it’s stated in the DSM from APA.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders) “internet gaming addiction disorder”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t want the message to be “shut up, we don’t want you” or “we’re going to ignore you til you go away”.
I want the message to be “then help us try to get to where you think the game should be”.

agree. i think that both parts struggling to convince the other to “correctly interpret” manifesto is a waste of time, and no result is coming out from this post.
(it’s the reason i opened the other post about VP, in fact)

the only solution is to work together to find a game progression that satisfies both parts.
and IMHO, it could be the horizontal one.

because there is NO WAY that a part of people (that part of it that bought the game because of manifesto) will ever accept another BiS tier to grind.

“Go Away: GW2 Isn’t For You!”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t want the message to be “shut up, we don’t want you” or “we’re going to ignore you til you go away”.

This is the professed, almost verbatim message of the legions of self-appointed “defenders of the game” who infest these forums (as they do in all games) and spend their time discouraging and chasing off anyone who doesn’t see things their way, rather than spending that time actually playing the game themselves.

No one at ArenaNet has ever said anything like this.

“Join Us: GW2 Is For You!”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I want the message to be “then help us try to get to where you think the game should be”.

This is the message ArenaNet has consistently given us since long before the game entered beta, and which they continue to give us in all aspects of their interactions with us.

In contrast to the “rabid fanboys” (who, ironically enough, are actually projecting their own frustrations with the game on other players), ArenaNet’s communications are invariably cogent, professional and courteous — and they are always asking us for our honest feedback.

The conflict between these messages, and the philosophies underlying them, couldn’t be any more stark.

Here’s hoping ArenaNet’s message wins, so that we all can.

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

What happens when they raise the level cap? we all know its going to happen.

There will be new tiers, greens perhaps to start with,
there is no way your ascended lvl80 will be much use, what then?
would that be in keeping with the manifesto also?

At what point will the ones who defend the manifesto ask,
what happened to the manifesto?

Where does the manifesto video say there won’t be new tiers, or that there won’t be vertical progression?

As already pointed out,. there was vertical progression in the game AT LAUNCH. So if VP itself was a problem, people would have complained about it before the advent of ascended gear and the fractals.

It says it here for me “Everything you love about gw1”

GW1 had VP too. In the beginning it was very small and hardly noticeable with only 4 tiers of gear, but it was still there.

Then they added pve skills that got stronger and stronger as you built their associated rep. Which was much more noticeable, but people really seemed to enjoy it….

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

You know, I actually agree with this. It’s reasonable and logical to tell the devs you want specific things from Guild Wars 1. I agree 100%.

What’s not logical is banging on about it for a year after it’s clear that that’s not going to happen. It doesn’t help you (the collective you not you personally). It doesn’t help the game. It doesn’t help the players enjoying the game.

Anet announced ascended gear over a year ago. It’s taken more than a year to put it out and it’s still not fully released yet (we still have jewelry to go). People complained then and Anet said, they’re going to continue with it.

At some point, you cut your loses and move on, because continuing to complain about it isn’t going to change it, and it’s not likely making people who are complaining any happier. It’s sure not making me any happier either. lol

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

Ashen.2907:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who doesn’t know that MMOs change during development shouldn’t be playing MMOs.

Careful with that, friend, not everyone who plays MMOs are completely reasonable and logical adults. Some are just too young to really grasp how things happen and games have things just . . . not manage to make it.

I think it’s completely reasonable even independent of a developer telling you that you would have things you loved from an original to a sequel to expect something.

We got nothing, except lore.

Well, I wouldn’t say, “nothing,” but I see very little of GW1 in GW2.

I’m not being funny but i struggle to see anything, take away the lore and the name, what in gw2 reminds you of gw1? what did we get?