Guild Wars 2

If anyone didn’t know, a huge percentage of GW2 players never made to level80, they barely played a few hours.

The problem is not typical to just GW2, but many MMO’s face the same problem. It seemed the first few hours is what decided for new players if they want to continue playing the game.

Anet said they did extensive testing about the new system. I presume they found that with the new system, they are more able to retain players.

What if Anet actually did the right thing? Maybe with the new system, they were able to increase their retention rate by 10-15%? So maybe pushing back skills/utilities actually helps new players to continue playing because they aren’t overwhelmed by so many information. And it makes leveling more rewarding so they actually continue playing instead of quitting.

I personally hate the change. I think if they want to make the changes, they should consider giving veterans the option to be not included in to.

That being said, I think Anet also need to consider the number of vets that will actually quit or not level new characters because they made the change.

… Forcibly enticing new players to at least level to 40 before they unlock every slot of their hotbar, and thus giving them more time to become dedicated to/enthralled by the game?

…. BRILLIANT!

Cow entertaining has never been more rewarding!

The problem is it affects people who have already done that

So in order to enitce players to not quit after a few hours they want to make the opening levels even more tedious/boring by stripping the game of basic features such as doding, any weapon skill other than autoattack, utilities, bundles, conditions, basically anything that requires you to actually think.

I don’t know about you but that is the opposite of what would make me stay.

If people never made it to level 80 because they found the levelling process too long and tedious, how is increasing the level of tedium going to help?

The problem was not that the levelling was too fun.

It’s not because of confusing game mechanics. It’s because leveling to 80 is a huge, tedious chore and leveling as means of progress is an outdated concept. Just blow off levels altogether and work from there.

If the changes actually benefit new players, then the obvious answer is to only make the changes apply for any character created on an account that does not already have at least one level 80 (or better, 40) character. Or, even more obvious, give an option on character creation as to whether you want NPE on or off.

Throw in account bound trait unlocks (or, again, have an option on character creation) and all problems vets have with the new systems go away.

I’m certain they enabled the “best” of the options they tried, and by that I mean the one that will engage “new” players longer.

I’m dubious that this method will actually “work” in any tangible sense at the end of the day. It’s not that the game is any easier. The mouthbreathing Candy Crush Saga iStore crowd is still going to quit because they’re still going to be frustrated by things being “too hard.”

The new method doesn’t dodge for them. They’re still going to get steamrolled the first time a champion rears back with an obvious tell. The new method doesn’t rally for them. They’re still going to be lost in the downed state.

The people who quit this game because it was too confusing are still going to be confused. They aren’t interested in learning. They don’t want to improve (that would be work). They want to log in, kill things with no difficulty, and earn [x] reward after [y] hours.

If that is the sort of player Arena.net feels they have to cater to, then Arena.net has to submit entirely to their wants, and give them a faceroll easy game. Otherwise, Arena.net has to accept they will never win over that crowd, and focus on their existing players.

laokoko.7403:

If anyone didn’t know, a huge percentage of GW2 players never made to level80, they barely played a few hours.

The problem is not typical to just GW2, but many MMO’s face the same problem. It seemed the first few hours is what decided for new players if they want to continue playing the game.

Anet said they did extensive testing about the new system. I presume they found that with the new system, they are more able to retain players.

What if Anet actually did the right thing? Maybe with the new system, they were able to increase their retention rate by 10-15%? So maybe pushing back skills/utilities actually helps new players to continue playing because they aren’t overwhelmed by so many information. And it makes leveling more rewarding so they actually continue playing instead of quitting.

I personally hate the change. I think if they want to make the changes, they should consider giving veterans the option to be not included in to.

That being said, I think Anet also need to consider the number of vets that will actually quit or not level new characters because they made the change.

then they would need a way to retain those intial 10-15%, and not lose 10-15% later when its time to level a new charachter. Right now the game is pretty much about playing alts in the long term, so a change to leveling for everyone is a dangerous thing.

but my gut feeling is they will lose as many as they gained by altering the system. Also there is the high probability, that while they did discover some problems, they did not discover the best solutions to that problem.
IE they had a system, tested it and saw certain results, they now have a new system that hasnt been tested as thoroughly, and may have just as many faults, but new ones, effecting new aspects.

Also they said they tested for usability, which is different than testing for interest/entertainment.
Asking some one how usuable a product is, is not the same as asking them if they like the product or are interested in it.

laokoko.7403:

What if Anet actually did the right thing? Maybe with the new system, they were able to increase their retention rate by 10-15%? So maybe pushing back skills/utilities actually helps new players to continue playing because they aren’t overwhelmed by so many information. And it makes leveling more rewarding so they actually continue playing instead of quitting.

Sure, having more than 1 skill to spam at level 1 would be too overwhelming for most people and limiting my choice at level 1 helps my retention rate by 10-15% that there are actually other skills other than auto attack number ‘1’, otherwise I may forget that other skills do exist.

Traveller.7496:

It’s not because of confusing game mechanics. It’s because leveling to 80 is a huge, tedious chore and leveling as means of progress is an outdated concept. Just blow off levels altogether and work from there.

That was tried in an early build. From what I recall, the testers didn’t like the feel of it so they went back to levels.

I’ve been leading the same guild since 2004. It is true, there are plenty of people who never reach max level. Some are inveterate altoholics, who keep trying new stuff. Some don’t like the loooong grind (and I’m talking about games that take months to get to max level, not GW2, where it takes days). Some dislike the available PVP content, some don’t like the community, some hate the combat style. But I’ve never heard ANYONE in the guild say they thought Guild Wars 2 was too hard… if anything, people were glad about the variety it offered.

laokoko.7403:

What if Anet actually did the right thing? Maybe with the new system, they were able to increase their retention rate by 10-15%?

If so, it doesn’t change the fact that they sacrificed the experience for those who love the game.

That’s the main reason people are freaking out. It’s always felt a wee bit like they didn’t care if they lost veteran players (and I’m not even talking elitist players either).

Now it doesn’t just feel a wee bit anymore.

They are not right.

The problem we have here is a conflict between playtesting data and the goals of the game design.

GW2 was meant to be a little daunting, meant to encourage exploration, and meant to be rich with interactive content near every step (with gathering nodes, bundles, dynamic events, etc..)

The statements from devs showed their playtesters were daunted more than expected, and that can be a problem, but outright reducing content is NOT what an game designer, aware of GW2’s original intended goals, would do.

• Nothing about bundles is different to understand. You clicked F to interact with a bucket, and picked it up; what’s not to get?
• Gathering nodes were only ever frustrating if you did not have the right tools (due to being on a new character). Introducing earlier gathering tool rewards would have sufficed to negate the frustration players get from trying to gather without tools on new characters.
• Skill points and Vistas were never in the way, only challenges that encouraged exploration.

They are catering to people who never played MMOs or are used to WoW-type traditional MMO mechanics and working BACKWARDS from the beloved gem of the original leveling experience.

The initial instance only needed a few tooltips to nudge players in the right direction in regards to basic mechanics such as Personal Story, Dodging, and other basic mechanics that scared off some players:

Example:

• The arrow that appears and points to your heal skill when your life is low was a good addition to the game.

This backs up some research done on player habits, but I remember when I played Assassin’s Creed III – the game tracks and compares your accomplishments with everyone else on uPlay who also plays (or had played) the game.

I got a couple of animal kills in the starting area. You just trip over these encounters and they are littered throughout the zones like most mobs in GW2. The game told me I was now in the top 50% for perfect animal kills (not messing up a 2-button Quick Time Event). That’s like being in the top 50% in GW2 for killing animals without losing 50% of your HP after you killed 5 mobs. You could take away alot from that, but what I took away was this:

Many people simply don’t play a game after a short duration. This is true whether it’s the best game ever or a pile of kittens. I know ANet likes collecting data and trying to make sense of it. Out of context, finding out 50% of your players quit after 2 hours might make you panic. I wonder if ANet is aware of this particular trend in gaming habits?

chemiclord.3978:

I’m dubious that this method will actually “work” in any tangible sense at the end of the day. It’s not that the game is any easier. The mouthbreathing Candy Crush Saga iStore crowd is still going to quit because they’re still going to be frustrated by things being “too hard.”

Exactly! The game doesn’t get easier as you go on, but harder. If someone can’t grasp those extremely basic aspects of the game that have now been level-gated (although restricting the content doesn’t actually do anything to teach it), imagine what happens if they ever get to the endgame. The kind of people who conceivably could have benefited from those changes will never invest themselves in this game to the point where they have an impact on its revenue.

The logical direction that this NPE takes us is to a dumbed-down endgame, at which point it does directly affect veteran players. I think it’s too soon to sound the alarm bells and announce that this is what will happen, I’m personally fine concluding that the present changes are a result of gross misjudgment.

I don’t doubt they did the right thing from a monetary standpoint. I don’t doubt SWG did the right thing from a monetary standpoint when they implemented the CU and later the NGE.

From a game design standpoint, however, I feel it’s tragic for the people who put their heart and soul into innovative designs and eventually end up with something that is like the game equivalent of a blockbuster movie.

The artist in me just gets sad at the sight of it.

Labjax.2465:

I don’t doubt they did the right thing from a monetary standpoint. I don’t doubt SWG did the right thing from a monetary standpoint when they implemented the CU and later the NGE.

From a game design standpoint, however, I feel it’s tragic for the people who put their heart and soul into innovative designs and eventually end up with something that is like the game equivalent of a blockbuster movie.

The artist in me just gets sad at the sight of it.

As a former Bloodfin player, I do hope you’re being sarcastic there… I saw my guild reduced from 120 to 40 (CU) then 5 (NGE) in half a year’s time thanks to those brilliant changes.

Well-written original post.

I’m assuming that ANet was correct and that these changes are better for a lot of new players (and some relatively-new-to-MMO veterans). I then evaluate the changes based on that point of view and, on the whole, they have done a nice job of separating out each new mechanic, so you are only ever learning 1-2 new things.

However, like the OP, I hate how the changes affect my game, too. It’s made leveling up a lot less enjoyable: it’s more linear, it’s full of gates that are tedious after the first few characters, and it makes starting a new character a chore I want to avoid, rather than a challenge I want to embrace.

What if ANet was right? I think they probably were…about new players. But, they also affected the game substantially for veterans and I hope they can find a better balance going forward.

oh please..dear lord, you can’t be serious OP …

People hate time gating. Time gating basic game features that have been around for the last two years is not a good move.

laokoko.7403:

The problem is not typical to just GW2, but many MMO’s face the same problem. It seemed the first few hours is what decided for new players if they want to continue playing the game.

So how does making your game play feel as bad as every free MMO on the market make more players want to choose to buy GW2?

They are right … if they wanted to save money on server expenses by getting new customers to quit as soon as possible. There’s nothing to be gained from existing customers except sucker referrals to others and gemstore purchases.

Broom.2561:

As a former Bloodfin player, I do hope you’re being sarcastic there… I saw my guild reduced from 120 to 40 (CU) then 5 (NGE) in half a year’s time thanks to those brilliant changes.

I despised the changes, don’t get me wrong. But SWG survived for quite a while after the NGE and I think it was bleeding players even before the changes. It just obviously bled a ton of angry veterans in the process.

Anyway, what I was trying to say, as it pertains to GW2, is that they may be steadily bleeding players similar to how SWG was and this is their way to try to keep the ship from dipping significantly underwater (at the most likely planned for expense of some angry veterans).

Stooperdale.3560:

So how does making your game play feel as bad as every free MMO on the market make more players want to choose to buy GW2?

I guess it depends.

If Arena.net honestly thought the problem was genuinely new players were overwhelmed by having “too much stuff” thrown at them too quickly, then I suppose this would be the best solution (because let’s be honest, your average MMO player is going to ignore tutorials much like they left click through any flavor text as fast as they can).

But I personally think they’re chasing a player base that doesn’t exist. Simple fact is the majority of players quit any given game in a matter of hours. If there was a way to actually get those players to “stick”, I think someone would have found it by now.

laokoko.7403:

If anyone didn’t know, a huge percentage of GW2 players never made to level80, they barely played a few hours.

Do you work at Anet? Please provide the PROOF of your findings of your “Huge Percentage of GW2 players never made to level80” or i’m calling this whole post B.S.

I myself being an extremely casual player already, have 5 level 80s, with others having much more.

laokoko.7403:

If anyone didn’t know, a huge percentage of GW2 players never made to level80, they barely played a few hours.

The problem is not typical to just GW2, but many MMO’s face the same problem. It seemed the first few hours is what decided for new players if they want to continue playing the game.

Anet said they did extensive testing about the new system. I presume they found that with the new system, they are more able to retain players.

What if Anet actually did the right thing? Maybe with the new system, they were able to increase their retention rate by 10-15%? So maybe pushing back skills/utilities actually helps new players to continue playing because they aren’t overwhelmed by so many information. And it makes leveling more rewarding so they actually continue playing instead of quitting.

I personally hate the change. I think if they want to make the changes, they should consider giving veterans the option to be not included in to.

That being said, I think Anet also need to consider the number of vets that will actually quit or not level new characters because they made the change.

That’s most likely the most ridiculous argument/opinion regarding the new system I’ve read.

Stooperdale.3560:

laokoko.7403:

The problem is not typical to just GW2, but many MMO’s face the same problem. It seemed the first few hours is what decided for new players if they want to continue playing the game.

So how does making your game play feel as bad as every free MMO on the market make more players want to choose to buy GW2?

We have quaggans and charr Therefore we are automatically better.

Corpus Christi.2057:

That’s most likely the most ridiculous argument/opinion regarding the new system I’ve read.

Notice how the OP just disappeared after posting his views.
I don’t think he’s interested in a discussion, just wanna ruffle some feathers.

Snowmoon.1758:

Corpus Christi.2057:

That’s most likely the most ridiculous argument/opinion regarding the new system I’ve read.

Notice how the OP just disappeared after posting his views.
I don’t think he’s interested in a discussion, just wanna ruffle some feathers.

Or he went to work instead of having the day off like I do (which is coupled by sitting in a Texas house with no air conditioning until the motor arrives “soon™”.

This type of gating is never a good thing imo. It feels like a cheesy asian mmo.

Its funny because it wouldn’t have mattered anyway. Gw2 at launch had no endgame. So even if people made it to 80, they would have quit within an hour. It isn’t much better now, only slighty.

Fernling.1729:

This type of gating is never a good thing imo. It feels like a cheesy asian mmo.

Final Fantasy 14: ARR does it, honestly, for the first 15 or so levels. Heck, one of the big things (changing classes) is locked until level 10.

And yet . . . it works.

SkylightMoon.2098:

Its funny because it wouldn’t have mattered anyway. Gw2 at launch had no endgame. So even if people made it to 80, they would have quit within an hour. It isn’t much better now, only slighty.

I find it strange, I made it to 80 and while I quit within an hour it was because I looked and saw it was 4am and I had work that day.

So I guess you’re technically right?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fernling.1729:

This type of gating is never a good thing imo. It feels like a cheesy asian mmo.

Final Fantasy 14: ARR does it, honestly, for the first 15 or so levels. Heck, one of the big things (changing classes) is locked until level 10.

And yet . . . it works.

Well, it doesn’t work or fit here. And they could’ve left this stupid level gating in the Chinese version without making us deal with it.

Labjax.2465:

Broom.2561:

As a former Bloodfin player, I do hope you’re being sarcastic there… I saw my guild reduced from 120 to 40 (CU) then 5 (NGE) in half a year’s time thanks to those brilliant changes.

I despised the changes, don’t get me wrong. But SWG survived for quite a while after the NGE and I think it was bleeding players even before the changes. It just obviously bled a ton of angry veterans in the process.

Anyway, what I was trying to say, as it pertains to GW2, is that they may be steadily bleeding players similar to how SWG was and this is their way to try to keep the ship from dipping significantly underwater (at the most likely planned for expense of some angry veterans).

The game was losing subscriptions, but it was not hemoraghing before the CU, just a steady decline. Player representatives and developers had come up with a list of changes everyone could agree on, which was to be the combat upgrade. And then, suddenly, in an extremely short period, a completely DIFFERENT update happened.

It has always been rumored that the prime cause for the change was the success of WoW. There you had this barely known IP, made into a (at the start) very buggy MMO, and it had over 1 million subs pretty much from the start. And LucasArts said ‘hold on a minute, our IP is Star Wars, we should be doing better’. And hence a chance that completely ignored all the veteran players wanted, in the hopes of drawing a new public. Sound familiar?

And we have SOE’s own word for the fact that the CU caused the game to bleed players at an enormous rate, they admitted this in an article a few years after the fact. They also admitted they panicked and tried another change, the NGE, which was even LESS desirable to the remaining players, causing another even bigger exodus.

Please read this blog:
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/3961/page/2

Scott Jennings, otherwise known as Lumm the Mad, legendary game developer, calls it the worst MMO failure in history. Most everyone else in the branche agrees. SWG only survived on life support, because people who had SOE’s all-games-sub had access to it. Conservative estimates have it at maximum of 40,000 players, even then. Personally, I think it was closer to 20,000.

Nilkemia.8507:

Well, it doesn’t work or fit here. And they could’ve left this stupid level gating in the Chinese version without making us deal with it.

I think it would have been better to only force new accounts to do it and anyone older than 90 days wouldn’t have the “New Player Experience” to prevent this problem with people who alt a lot.

laokoko.7403:

If anyone didn’t know, a huge percentage of GW2 players never made to level80, they barely played a few hours.

The problem is not typical to just GW2, but many MMO’s face the same problem. It seemed the first few hours is what decided for new players if they want to continue playing the game.

Anet said they did extensive testing about the new system. I presume they found that with the new system, they are more able to retain players.

What if Anet actually did the right thing? Maybe with the new system, they were able to increase their retention rate by 10-15%? So maybe pushing back skills/utilities actually helps new players to continue playing because they aren’t overwhelmed by so many information. And it makes leveling more rewarding so they actually continue playing instead of quitting.

I personally hate the change. I think if they want to make the changes, they should consider giving veterans the option to be not included in to.

That being said, I think Anet also need to consider the number of vets that will actually quit or not level new characters because they made the change.

They are right, the problem here is that veteran players cant skip it.

Broom.2561:

The game was losing subscriptions, but it was not hemoraghing before the CU, just a steady decline. Player representatives and developers had come up with a list of changes everyone could agree on, which was to be the combat upgrade. And then, suddenly, in an extremely short period, a completely DIFFERENT update happened.

It has always been rumored that the prime cause for the change was the success of WoW. There you had this barely known IP, made into a (at the start) very buggy MMO, and it had over 1 million subs pretty much from the start. And LucasArts said ‘hold on a minute, our IP is Star Wars, we should be doing better’. And hence a chance that completely ignored all the veteran players wanted, in the hopes of drawing a new public. Sound familiar?

And we have SOE’s own word for the fact that the CU caused the game to bleed players at an enormous rate, they admitted this in an article a few years after the fact. They also admitted they panicked and tried another change, the NGE, which was even LESS desirable to the remaining players, causing another even bigger exodus.

Please read this blog:
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/3961/page/2

Scott Jennings, otherwise known as Lumm the Mad, legendary game developer, calls it the worst MMO failure in history. Most everyone else in the branche agrees. SWG only survived on life support, because people who had SOE’s all-games-sub had access to it. Conservative estimates have it at maximum of 40,000 players, even then. Personally, I think it was closer to 20,000.

Sounds about right. And that’s just the thing. Everybody wants to be making what WoW is making. :/

laokoko.7403:

If anyone didn’t know, a huge percentage of GW2 players never made to level80, they barely played a few hours.
-snip-

How do you know this? Link?

Even if new players needed extra help, this is the wrong way to do it, and there’s no reason to force everyone to do it.

No matter how you look at it, it’s a failure.

I had tons of friends that reach lvl 80 in the first 2 weeks some even less then a week and they all stop playing the game cuz of the end game was kitten also all of them told me that this game got epic lvling and super fun to lvl but the end was the reason not the lvling game so no arena net docent play their own game and putting kitten updates like this .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fernling.1729:

This type of gating is never a good thing imo. It feels like a cheesy asian mmo.

Final Fantasy 14: ARR does it, honestly, for the first 15 or so levels. Heck, one of the big things (changing classes) is locked until level 10.

And yet . . . it works.

I can’t speak for FF 14, but isn’t this the exact thing that Anet was trying to stray away from? Being like every other mmo. What’s next?
Just seems like a dangerous precedent.

Ya, I’ll second ipan. Even if it’s great for newbies – and i’ll admit pacing probably does help, and pop-ups with little explanations of mechanics ought to have to have been in years ago – even if it is great for newbies, there’s no reason to force a two-year player through the same loop.

It’s spread out too long to entertain an experienced player – 40 levels to unlock your full action bar, level 80 till you can even begin unlocking most of your traits? c’mon.

Maybe people don´t make finished because isn´t the game for them? Every people have another taste.

Labjax.2465:

Broom.2561:

The game was losing subscriptions, but it was not hemoraghing before the CU, just a steady decline. Player representatives and developers had come up with a list of changes everyone could agree on, which was to be the combat upgrade. And then, suddenly, in an extremely short period, a completely DIFFERENT update happened.

It has always been rumored that the prime cause for the change was the success of WoW. There you had this barely known IP, made into a (at the start) very buggy MMO, and it had over 1 million subs pretty much from the start. And LucasArts said ‘hold on a minute, our IP is Star Wars, we should be doing better’. And hence a chance that completely ignored all the veteran players wanted, in the hopes of drawing a new public. Sound familiar?

And we have SOE’s own word for the fact that the CU caused the game to bleed players at an enormous rate, they admitted this in an article a few years after the fact. They also admitted they panicked and tried another change, the NGE, which was even LESS desirable to the remaining players, causing another even bigger exodus.

Please read this blog:
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/3961/page/2

Scott Jennings, otherwise known as Lumm the Mad, legendary game developer, calls it the worst MMO failure in history. Most everyone else in the branche agrees. SWG only survived on life support, because people who had SOE’s all-games-sub had access to it. Conservative estimates have it at maximum of 40,000 players, even then. Personally, I think it was closer to 20,000.

Sounds about right. And that’s just the thing. Everybody wants to be making what WoW is making. :/

and then theyfail even at that.

Unfortunately for me, and I assume many other players, the leveling system is just too boring. Tutorials have no effect on that. I had to force my way to 80 and I just don’t see how I can do that a second time. Grinding repetitive tasks until a bar slowly fills up, following a wvw zerg for hours, spending your gold powerleveling crafting. I did all these things to get to 80 and it felt like it took forever.

ANet has went too far; they want to appeal to players they lost because the game was ‘hard’ … now they assume everyone is too stupid to give them the opportunity to experience everything the game has to offer until you reach mid game level. Anet, I think you just screwed yourself pretty bad.

1. Why would any veteran player want to experience this new system?
2. How does locking up interesting features make the game easier or more interesting for new players?

I think the answer in both cases will be … they wont and it doesn’t.

laokoko.7403:

What if Anet actually did the right thing?

TheAgedGnome.7520:

laokoko.7403:

If anyone didn’t know, a huge percentage of GW2 players never made to level80, they barely played a few hours.
-snip-

How do you know this? Link?

That is just a guess judging from the AP leader board, and results from other MMO’s that a huge percentage of new players/trial players dont’ make it far into the games.

Fernling.1729:

I can’t speak for FF 14, but isn’t this the exact thing that Anet was trying to stray away from? Being like every other mmo. What’s next?
Just seems like a dangerous precedent.

Had this system been in place when I first tried the game (on a friend’s spare character slot) I’d have concluded it was like other mmo’s (which I did not like) and quit within an hour. I’d not have even purchased the game.