Guild Wars 2

Josh,

Sorry that a few people here are so seemingly demanding and rude in their requests. I find your interaction with all of us positive and enlightening, and I hope you continue to answer our questions when you can ;D

This one that you’re working on.. I suspect you cannot talk much about it, but can you say whether it will be for a currently existing zone or for an as-of-yet unannounced zone? Is it themed for a specific holiday, or is it more general purpose?

My favorite is Griffonrook Run. It’s because its somewhat random (griffons attack) and hard. It would be nice if you do more randomized JPs. (randomized movement of floor tiles (can’t be learned), random fire bursts or other traps. Currently almost every JP can be learned.

Josh, I just wanted say thank you so much for sharing all the details about jumping puzzles and the camera design decisions with us. I really enjoyed reading them and I absolutely love the jumping puzzle aspect of GW2.

Frankly, from all the MMOs I have played, there isn’t alot of developers who would sit down and actually chat to players in a manner like yours. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

Unfortunately, it seems that in every game there are players who think that designing feature X would take time away from feature Y. This might have being somewhat true in the old days with a small development team, but as you said, it is rarely true these days when you have separate development teams doing their own thing.

Mad kings clock tower.. I just love it.

Josh Foreman.8250:

The one I’m working on is so epic it will have a mixture of pretty much everything we’ve ever done in JPs and a whole lot more. But it will also have a Baby mode for people who just want to cruise through it.

Arg! Enough with the suspense. Will we be seeing your JP in February or March? It sounds better and better the more you talk about it.

josh, thank you for answering questions.

I do have one question though. will we still be able to use our normal skills in the new dungeons? because I suck at jumping puzzles but as a engineer, that doesn’t matter as much (jump shot)

im gonna be the first to conquer it. i called it! and josh, will it have traps so we can pvp in it? PLEASE?!!!!!!

Josh Foreman.8250:

Rising Dusk.2408:

This one that you’re working on.. I suspect you cannot talk much about it, but can you say whether it will be for a currently existing zone or for an as-of-yet unannounced zone? Is it themed for a specific holiday, or is it more general purpose?

Everything about it is brand new. I mean… everything. So it’s going to take a while. Give it a couple months.

I think this is the most revealing thing any dev has said about any new content in, well, ever. Please don’t hold his feet to the fire on this one. But i can hear the speculation right now, it got really loud in here all the sudden!

We’re all going to be transmogrified into quaggans. Jumping quaggans.

i cant jump when i use my quaggan tonics:(

Josh Foreman.8250:

My Dead Characters.9517:

i cant jump when i use my quaggan tonics:(

You guessed it! Everyone will be transformed into Baby Quaggan who can’t jump. All you will be doing is rezzing fallen NPCs who are doing a wonderful looking JP above you. I can’t believe you figured it out so soon!

Careful there Josh, people might take you literally. People will be quoting this for months!

My wife would be all over that and she hates jumping puzzles. It’s pretty much one of the only reasons i made a mesmer, jut to get help her achievements in them. I even had to to the wintersday puzzle for her, which (on topic) is my favorite to date.

Me too, me too it’s not that jumping puzzles are bad but I’m horrible at them.

<— wants the baby-quaggan-part. /joke

Eternal JP is really nice place, cause u can go there with your guild and climb with teamplay.
And u need to watch out for hostile servers. PlayerKilling there is great >:)

can it have traps and be a pvp zone? PLEASE!!!!??? i love killing people in the jumping puzzle in EB. i want more pvp jumping puzzles!

My Dead Characters.9517:

can it have traps and be a pvp zone? PLEASE!!!!??? i love killing people in the jumping puzzle in EB. i want more pvp jumping puzzles!

I certainly hope not. IIRC, JPs were originally designed without combat (except as a mechanic for things like dodging specific, telegraphed attacks) and that’s the way I feel they should be. Focusing on precise movement and observing the surroundings to figure out how to proceed is what makes jumping puzzles fun IMO.

Fawcett’s Bounty: I had completed many jump puzzles before this one, but this one was the first one that I stumbled upon all by myself. Curiosity rewarded me when I hopped down to check out a rusty door in the cliff side.

Was so proud to make it through with no videos or walkthroughs. And, pirates, and goonie ship… simply awesome.

Also completed Forgotten Treasure today. Holy Kitten that thing was annoying and I must have fallen to my death at least 20 times but it felt good to complete it.

Just wanted to get my voice in – Mad King’s Clock Tower.

Rainu.6871:

My Dead Characters.9517:

can it have traps and be a pvp zone? PLEASE!!!!??? i love killing people in the jumping puzzle in EB. i want more pvp jumping puzzles!

I certainly hope not. IIRC, JPs were originally designed without combat (except as a mechanic for things like dodging specific, telegraphed attacks) and that’s the way I feel they should be. Focusing on precise movement and observing the surroundings to figure out how to proceed is what makes jumping puzzles fun IMO.

I think the EB jumping puzzle is sufficient proof-of-concept for more PvP dungeons, though. They are definitely not everyone’s cup of tea, but could be a hit among that crowd.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Everything about it is brand new. I mean… everything. So it’s going to take a while. Give it a couple months.

This news is both heartening and saddening at the same time. At the one end I’m glad you guys are taking your time, and really making sure the content is the best it can possibly be. On the other end I’m rather curious to see what crazy stuff you guys will come up with next. As long as every new piece of content get’s better and pushes the limits beyond the horizon.

Keep up the good work.

How about we compromise: lets make there be a pvp version of it, or a path that lets you pvp if you chose to go down that particular path. that way non-pvpers can jump without pvp and we pvpers can pvp while jumping.

I also loved the clock tower, took me a while to master it, very fun, very fast paced.

Also, I hope we’ll get to be our own characters :’(

Hahaha,

That’s just mean Josh, teasing us like that.
Now I really cannot wait for the new ones

I really enjoy the Eternal Battlegrounds Jumping Puzzle, and many of the others, but I couldn’t dislike the timed jumping puzzles (Halloween/Christmas) any more than I do – they are just plain horrible.

Josh Foreman.8250:

No. ALL skills, buffs, or any other un-equalizer will be removed.

That’s the idea I hate the most about where GW2’s JPs are headed. Skills, buffs and “un-equalizers” actually make the puzzles more fun, more dynamic. It provides creative ways to complete the said puzzles and awards thinking outside the box.
That said, I hated Griffonrook because, while dynamic, the griffons added a massive element of luck due to the erratic behavior of AI, their shifting positioning and twitchy attacks.

Josh Foreman.8250:

We are always trying to make it perfect, but sometimes our solutions will not be the same as yours. And sometimes X is what our designers have decided is the best solution so it won’t change. We can’t make a game that is 100% everyone’s cup of tea. We will spend resources in ways that you would not if you ran ArenaNet. We spend resources in ways that I would not if I ran ArenaNet. The same can be said for any individual in the universe. I hear what you’re saying. You don’t like JPs and wish we would put those resources into other areas. My only contention is that “resources” are not a uniform descriptor. Map Artists can’t fix whatever it is you dislike about WvW. But they CAN make content that appeals to a niche community like the JP crowd without impinging on other systems or turning the game into Super Mario Bros.

Josh, I just want to say thank you for being a vocal designer and interacting with us on the forums (and elsewhere). Realistic, informative, and personal responses like yours please an online community more than any corporate response.

It helps to put a face on ArenaNet, unlike a tightly controlled, group formulated PR response. It humanizes your company, and I’m almost certain it works towards pacifying unreasonable players.

Not really a jumping “puzzle”, just some easier jumping involved, but I found Deidre’s Steps at Mount Maelstrom today and it’s absolutely beautiful.

I hate Griffinrook Run, good to hear that it’s “bugged” as of now, not gonna try it again.

VakarisJ.5619:

Josh Foreman.8250:

No. ALL skills, buffs, or any other un-equalizer will be removed.

That’s the idea I hate the most about where GW2’s JPs are headed. Skills, buffs and “un-equalizers” actually make the puzzles more fun, more dynamic. It provides creative ways to complete the said puzzles and awards thinking outside the box.

It is also imbalanced in hugely favors engineers and mesmers.

Excellent. I get to say “You smell funny.” to random passers-by.

I can understand some of the friction between jumping puzzle fans and WvW fans. There is a belief that if say 30 of your side are in that map’s jumping puzzle, they are blocking another 30 players from your side from playing in the WvW action. Folks get mad about this the same they would get mad about a group of players being afk at home base..

For the player motivated by “the competition” those players blocking other players are immoral/unethical/greifing/kittenheads.

Even if the belief is untrue. I forget if it is..

Josh Foreman.8250:

I’ve always called them Jumping Challenges which covers the scope of what they offer.

Griffinrook Run offers jumping, running, falling, outrage and madness. Which would be a bit unwieldily as a name though.

Not a fan of the jumping puzzles at all. I am yet to finish one. Falling off is what I seem to do most.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Mastermavrick.2439:

the only one i hate is Griffinrook run as i’ve never managed to get the chest, always hit somewhere along the way.

Yeah, I feel so bad about that. I designed it so that the Griffons would never do that one insta-peck move, so they would only do the dive-bomb, which gave you a tell so you could always dodgeroll away in time. But somehow that darn skill slipped back in, and now it’s a matter of dumb luck to get to the end. I’ve been assured that it will be fixed for the next build. But it sucks the the whole design of the challenge is ruined by one small detail.

actually, its not that hard. The only really hard part, is the one, where you have to jump from the ruins, down to the last part of the puzzle. Because If you jump too far, the griffon will kill you. If you manage to jump right, you can get the healing egg right away. I managed to do it, after a few tries. I loved that!

I love every jumping puzzle, because I discovered them for myself. But Id like to be honest: You shold remove them from the wiki. I’d like to discover them by myself. And, you should somehow equalize the amount of Jumping Puzzles per area. Because there are 4 JP’s in Caledon Forest, and in some maps there isnt one, like the Brisban wildlands. There is a really cool place though, Aurora’s Remains. Seems like an unfinished Jumping Puzzle, or a closed path to another map. It was great, discovering it.

I also liked every Jumping Puzzle in Ascalon, especially the Chaos Crystal Cavern.

I think, every Map should have serveral Jumping Puzzles:D

Ursan.7846:

VakarisJ.5619:

Josh Foreman.8250:

No. ALL skills, buffs, or any other un-equalizer will be removed.

That’s the idea I hate the most about where GW2’s JPs are headed. Skills, buffs and “un-equalizers” actually make the puzzles more fun, more dynamic. It provides creative ways to complete the said puzzles and awards thinking outside the box.

It is also imbalanced in hugely favors engineers and mesmers.

False.

Mesmers can only use portals to help others if they passed the puzzle already, their illusionary leap only works if there’s a targeted neutral/hostile, otherwise it fails. They also have no speed signet and their only reliable way for swiftness is on their focus with a huge downtime.

Engineers have the jump shot which is a great leap skill, however I’ve never had any trouble doing the same with the warrior (monarch’s leap), guardian (leap of faith), ranger (swoop, requires a bit of a run-up though, sword’s leap can also be used if you can at first waste the evade without falling off), elementalist (lightning leap from the conjured hammer). The thief has heartseeker, but due to it’s short range I haven’t used it as often. Necromancers are the only ones handicapped here, yet even they have a speed signet, marking them well above mesmers.
Such is how the fact, that mesmers can help an entire group bypass huge chunks of the puzzle, gets balanced out.

By stating that it’s imbalanced, you assume the JP is made in a specific way that specifically favors one or a few professions over others, while that is often true, it also adds further to the good side of dynamics and creative thinking. Especially if the JP in question has more then one route to the objective. The trick is to learn and play to your strengths and allowing skills, buffs and “un-equalizers” makes the JP a richer experience without much input by the developers them selves.

^ I find it hard to take you seriously if you think that being able to jump to a spot accurately (with Engi) is somehow on par with leap attacks in which you can’t control where you land exactly (unless you have something targetted.)

Seriously, I’d like to see you do, say, the entire Pig Iron Quarry JP with nothing but the Warrior/Ranger/Guardian leaps and tell me if it’s as easy as doing it it with nothing but Engi’s rifle jump. Also those skills don’t work where the next platform you have to jump to is in an elevated position.

Also I worded my post wrong about Mesmers. Mesmers don’t see any advantage in the actual jumping portion, but the fact that they can allow people to “complete” the JP without actually doing is very irksome.

EDIT: Actually reading your post again, leaves me more confused. Why would use those skills? Every jump is possible by normal jumping. The reason why people use Engi rifle jump is so that they can control their jumps, so they don’t under/over jump. If you use the leap attacks you mentioned, that defeats the purpose because you can’t actually precisely control there you’re landing, the reason why people use the rifle jump over normally jumping in the first place.

If you’re consistently underjumping, use swiftness, which is available to all classes.
If you’re consistently overjumping, those skills don’t help you at all.

Add another tally to “Scavenger’s Chasm” as a favorite. I loved that one. The exploration, the sheer size of it. It’s almost more like a jumping MAZE. There were several times where I could see a charge I hadn’t gotten yet but took me forever to figure out how to get to it.

So far, jumping puzzles have been by far my favorite part of this game. I would keep playing this game if only for them alone. To all the people who complain about them and ask them to be removed, I would counter with the opposite, make MORE, put them EVERYWHERE. (yes, that’s an unreasonable request, but I do hope you guys keep making more)

Ursan.7846:

^ I find it hard to take you seriously if you think that being able to jump to a spot accurately (with Engi) is somehow on par with leap attacks in which you can’t control where you land exactly (unless you have something targetted.)

Seriously, I’d like to see you do, say, the entire Pig Iron Quarry JP with nothing but the Warrior/Ranger/Guardian leaps and tell me if it’s as easy as doing it it with nothing but Engi’s rifle jump. Also those skills don’t work where the next platform you jump is in an elevated position.

Also I worded my post wrong about Mesmers. Mesmers don’t see any advantage in the actual jumping portion, but the fact that they can allow people to “complete” the JP without actually doing is very irksome.

While it is a fact that jump shot is easy to use, with a small bit of practice you can use leap attacks just as easily. They always land you at the same range, so unless you’re having troubles judging distances, I can’t see the problem.

My only regret is that Blink and Lightning Flash work like shadowstep instead of actual teleports.

The Pig Iron Quarry JP is a very easy JP that barely has one or two spots where a leap may be useful. If you can’t jump across the hanging boxes using normal jumping and instead say it’s better to wait for the long recharge that jump shot has then I find it hard to take you seriously my self.

Personally, I have no problems with mesmers using portals to help others. For one — it’s what communities are for: to help each other out. The mesmer does pay a toll for having a harder time then others to get across the JP him self in the first place.

Ursan.7846:

EDIT: Actually reading your post again, leaves me more confused. Why would use those skills? Every jump is possible by normal jumping. The reason why people use Engi rifle jump is so that they can control their jumps, so they don’t under/over jump. If you use the leap attacks you mentioned, that defeats the purpose because you can’t actually precisely control there you’re landing, the reason why people use the rifle jump over normally jumping in the first place.

If you’re consistently underjumping, use swiftness, which is available to all classes.
If you’re consistently overjumping, those skills don’t help you at all.

Engie rifle can be used to bypass some parts of jumping puzzles, there’s usually no need for it’s precision. That’s how leaps help as well, even though they may be a bit more difficult to use.

If you’re consistently underjumping, then 24/7 swiftness or at least the speed signet is available to everyone except the mesmer.
If you’re consistently overjumping, then you’re not doing it right.

VakarisJ.5619:

They always land you at the same range, so unless you’re having troubles judging distances, I can’t see the problem.

That is exactly the problem. People who have trouble judging distances can use Engi rifle to complete jumps.

VakarisJ.5619:

The Pig Iron Quarry JP is a very easy JP that barely has one or two spots where a leap may be useful. If you can’t jump across the hanging boxes using normal jumping and instead say it’s better to wait for the long recharge that jump shot has then I find it hard to take you seriously my self.

You miss my point. Engies who can’t jump to save their lives can complete it. Wars/Rangers/Guardian’s who can’t jump to save their lives can’t.

That’s where the imbalance comes from.

Ursan.7846:

VakarisJ.5619:

They always land you at the same range, so unless you’re having troubles judging distances, I can’t see the problem.

That is exactly the problem. People who have trouble judging distances can use Engi rifle to complete jumps.

VakarisJ.5619:

The Pig Iron Quarry JP is a very easy JP that barely has one or two spots where a leap may be useful. If you can’t jump across the hanging boxes using normal jumping and instead say it’s better to wait for the long recharge that jump shot has then I find it hard to take you seriously my self.

You miss my point. Engies who can’t jump to save their lives can complete it. Wars/Rangers/Guardian’s who can’t jump to save their lives can’t.

That’s where the imbalance comes from.

Then that imbalance is made by user incompetence. It’s not a fault of the puzzle or the character skills/abilities provided. It’s just as you wouldn’t blame a computer because some 90yo doesn’t know how to type.

Also, if someone’s so bad at jumping that he solely plays engineer to do them, then taking away his only salvation isn’t fair to him by any stretch of the imagination.

Ema.4953:

Not a fan of the jumping puzzles at all. I am yet to finish one. Falling off is what I seem to do most.

Out of curiosity: Do you use your mouse to move and turn your character? One of my Guildmates, a 56 Years old man, who really sucks at JPs (Or JCs ^^) only uses his keyboard to manoeuver his character.
-
For the WvWvW JP Topic: I liked the EB Puzzle. But i hated the Pvp Part. There were two guys at the end of the “darkroom” just pushing people down the bars. Eternal hate for those dudes! So although i have no objections putting new JPs in the WvWvW World, they should be some kind of a peace zone. Getting in requires fighting – but inside you cannot be attacked.

Everyday i’m Puzzling!

BTW: I’m still german. So please continue to overlook my bad english.

VakarisJ.5619:

Then that imbalance is made by user incompetence. It’s not a fault of the puzzle or the character skills/abilities provided. It’s just as you wouldn’t blame a computer because some 90yo doesn’t know how to type.

Also, if someone’s so bad at jumping that he solely plays engineer to do them, then taking away his only salvation isn’t fair to him by any stretch of the imagination.

And there’s lots of jumps that are made trivial just because of Engi jump. I do a lot of JPs. There are a few jumps which are quite challenging and I don’t expect myself to nail it every single time. Even for many competent players, you have that difference in performance.

But regardless, I’m glad we agree that Engis hold a very distinctive advantage when it comes to JPs.

I guess where we don’t agree is that if someone doesn’t have the ability to do something, they shouldn’t be given a crutch based on their profession. (Or being given a free pas via portal)

Ursan.7846:

But regardless, I’m glad we agree that Engis hold a very distinctive advantage when it comes to JPs.

While the engineer holds a distinctive advantage when it comes to leaps, he loses it when it comes to perma-swiftness. Sure he can keep it up with speedy kits, medkit and stimulants, but it’s a hassle, as spamming the medkit every 5 seconds takes away your attention from the task at hand and personally, I’ve found my self falling in JPs many times because of it.

Ursan.7846:

I guess where we don’t agree is that if someone doesn’t have the ability to do something, they shouldn’t be given a crutch based on their profession.

Somehow after reading that I imagine you going into a hospital, finding the nearest patient with a torn diaphragm, pulling out his life support and yelling at him: “Breathe like everyone else you kitten cripple!”
I hope you get my meaning.

VakarisJ.5619:

While the engineer holds a distinctive advantage when it comes to leaps, he loses it when it comes to perma-swiftness. Sure he can keep it up with speedy kits, medkit and stimulants, but it’s a hassle, as spamming the medkit every 5 seconds takes away your attention from the task at hand and personally, I’ve found my self falling in JPs many times because of it.

Use swiftness when needed, and just pause and wait for CD if you need it but it’s not up. I wasn’t aware of any jumping puzzles in which perma-swiftness was helpful, because having 100% swiftness uptime gives you no advantage over having swiftness sometimes. Except in the Mad King/Wintersdays ones, where it would’ve been helpeful due to it being timed. Too bad you didn’t have access to it (And rightly so. Another case of imbalance if they did let you use class skills.)

VakarisJ.5619:

Somehow after reading that I imagine you going into a hospital, finding the nearest patient with a torn diaphragm, pulling out his life support and yelling at him: “Breathe like everyone else you kitten cripple!”
I hope you get my meaning.

I really hope you didn’t just compare

1. Completing a challenge, and getting rewarded for it.

to

2. Breathing?

I didn’t realize people died if their characters were unable to finish JPs? I’m scratching my head here wondering how the KITTEN you got your inane analogy from.

I am in the camp of “if you can’t do it, you don’t deserve the reward for completing it.” I see you disagree. That’s perfectly fine, we’ll just agree to disagree.

However, please don’t pretend like letting classes use their skills doesn’t cause imbalance. It does.

Ursan.7846:

VakarisJ.5619:

Somehow after reading that I imagine you going into a hospital, finding the nearest patient with a torn diaphragm, pulling out his life support and yelling at him: “Breathe like everyone else you kitten cripple!”
I hope you get my meaning.

I really hope you didn’t just compare

1. Completing a challenge, and getting rewarded for it.

to

2. Breathing?

I didn’t realize people died if their characters were unable to finish JPs? I’m scratching my head here wondering how the KITTEN you got your inane analogy from.

I actually did.

You said that this theoretical person couldn’t complete this JP to save his life.
I compared it to a man who couldn’t breathe to save his life.
You said you’re determined to take away one’s crutch, I compared it to taking an other one’s crutch.

Really, in the end what does it matter if some guy, who’s struggling with a JP uses jump shot to finally get that achievement after hours of attempts at the simplest of jumps? It doesn’t harm you or me or anyone for that matter, yet it aids that person in doing something he would’ve likely never achieved.

Ursan.7846:

I am in the camp of “if you can’t do it, you don’t deserve the reward for completing it.” I see you disagree. That’s perfectly fine, we’ll just agree to disagree.

Fine. But I’ll still think about you and that life support.