Why Armor is better (IMO)...

Why Armor is better (IMO)...

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Posted by: Tenrai Senshi.2017

Tenrai Senshi.2017

GW2 has immense variety, especially for a game that is “only” 4 years old, I can’t see how this is even an issue at all.

Unfortunately, for me it’s a bit of a lack of variety in some particular areas that in part adds to my concern about the lack of armor development lately. Take male medium armor models for example. 99% of them involve trench coats. I can only think of two male medium armor chest pieces off the top of my head that don’t involve trench coats of some kind, and the idea that we may have to wait for an expansion to get more armor in order to hopefully (but unlikely) break the trench-coat trend seems a bit depressing to me.

It’s a similar issue with light armor and butt capes.

Don’t get me wrong though, I DO appreciate the variety that is there, and I love being able to customize character appearances to the extent that I can. I just hope the devs don’t lose touch of that and let armor fall completely by the wayside. I just feel outfits lack that sense of fun and variety.

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Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

I don’t really understand why it would take that long to create a set of armor. It implies there’s some sort of systemic problem they have. Also, armor sets were released fairly regularly in the TP before outfits were added to the game.

The whole concept of outfits just seems kind of like a lazy cop-out. I mean I get that their resources aren’t unlimited, but it really feels like they struggle to put out the same amount of content that other MMOs do with much smaller staffs. I’ve really never understood that. It’s like they are bottlenecked by bad resource management and/or are working with insufficient knowledge of their own engine.

(edited by Einlanzer.1627)

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

GW2 has immense variety, especially for a game that is “only” 4 years old, I can’t see how this is even an issue at all.

is this your first MMO?
the vast majority of armour sets are still the ones from release, they have added very little since.

games like WoW released with multitudes more armour than GW2 has right now, and each expansion adds dozens more per weight class.

whatever the look you want in WoW you’ll have plenty to choose from, it isn’t just
“i fancy making my thief look sexeh! time to use cultural T3 chest…” (as in GW2)

for an MMO this game is severely lacking in armours, and allowing players to customise their look so they feel unique is quite possibly the most important part of an MMO.

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

GW2 has immense variety, especially for a game that is “only” 4 years old, I can’t see how this is even an issue at all.

is this your first MMO?
the vast majority of armour sets are still the ones from release, they have added very little since.

games like WoW released with multitudes more armour than GW2 has right now, and each expansion adds dozens more per weight class.

whatever the look you want in WoW you’ll have plenty to choose from, it isn’t just
“i fancy making my thief look sexeh! time to use cultural T3 chest…” (as in GW2)

for an MMO this game is severely lacking in armours, and allowing players to customise their look so they feel unique is quite possibly the most important part of an MMO.

From what I understand about WoW armor, it’s “painted on” the character model with only some pieces being 3D. That can make a big difference in how fast and how frequently new armor is made. Also, they have different races but those races share the same character models, again making armor for that game easier to make. Blizzard also make billions (literally). ANet makes far less. The budgets aren’t going to be anywhere close.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

the vast majority of armour sets are still the ones from release, they have added very little since.

To be more accurate, the game was released with 34 armor sets and they added 14 more sets in the 4 years since release.

There are also the 2 Achievement sets (Radiant and Hellfire) I don’t think they were available at release, at least not the chest/leggings, but they were created later but I don’t recall when.

Disclaimer: when I say armor set I mean the equal to 3 weights, 5 races, 2 genders, so I group them up a bit to get to those numbers. Cultural armor and Mistward armor doesn’t count.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

From what I understand about WoW armor, it’s “painted on” the character model with only some pieces being 3D. That can make a big difference in how fast and how frequently new armor is made. Also, they have different races but those races share the same character models, again making armor for that game easier to make. Blizzard also make billions (literally). ANet makes far less. The budgets aren’t going to be anywhere close.

It’s different for every MMO. Every MMO has made some kind of limits to get what they have. Of all MMOs, I think FFXIV has some of the most best looking armor and textures (although I haven’t played BDO so they might be catching up) and the reason why is they are subscription based (pure cash flow + it’s SquareEnix) and they only have humanoid and midget-baby models to make armor for.

I see people saying that outfits are crap, but comparing the overall personality of armor vs outfit, outfits has a lot of unique flavor. Even with players that will hate on outfits just in spite of them instead of if they’re actually good or not, they still have made more cash than armor with respect to time, resources and appeal.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

That’s 21 different sets. Even if we were to pretend they were all released over the course of the 4 years GW2 has been out, it’s still an armor set every 2 months. When we then consider that a lot of this was released early in the game’s lifespan, it becomes obvious that the long waiting periods people are implying are and were simply a fallacy.

There are a lot of implicit assumptions in the statement of one set/two months. I’m going by the evidence we have to date:

  • Mike O’Brien is on record stating that it takes 9 months to develop a full-fledged set of armor for 5 races times two genders times three weights.
  • At full throttle, they aren’t even producing that many outfits (which they’ve stated are far easier to produce).
  • They have been releasing new armor sets since launch.

None of us want it to be true that ANet is unable to produce armor sets more quickly, including ANet.

I think it’s just as much of an assumption for people to think they understand the intricacies regarding the production of armor vs outfits. We’re given a very vague statement with no real information and details regarding how long it takes to armor, and everyone takes it at face value without considering that there’s more to it than meets the eye.

If you want to believe that it doesn’t take 9 months in spite of having a full staff of people, I don’t see what anyone could say that would change your mind.

They’ve described the process of what it takes to make armor in this game and that it’s not the same as in other games, because of the level of detail, physics, and animation. Should it take 9 months? I have no idea; I just know that the only experts in the topic firmly believe it does take 9 months.

Not wanting it to be true won’t change how long it takes.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

the vast majority of armour sets are still the ones from release, they have added very little since.

To be more accurate, the game was released with 34 armor sets and they added 14 more sets in the 4 years since release..

exactly, and half(?) of those were added within the first year.
ever since one-piece cashgrabs AHEM “outfits” were added,
armours have been extremely scarce,
even the $60 expansion had a measly 3 sets per weight.

as we can see from how many gemstore armours were released before outfits were added, it does NOT take 9 months to make a single armour.
so i don’t buy the excuses.
does it take more work? sure i’d imagine, but much more? no.

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Posted by: DeanBB.4268

DeanBB.4268

I always assumed the armors released early in the gem shop had been created during the game’s development, then set aside so they could sell them. Rather than assuming they had been created after the game launched.

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Posted by: coso.9173

coso.9173

yeah I also believe many of them were created pre launch and just released after it.
but I still don’t believe it should take as long as 9 months id they find ways to reduce work on it.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

Pretty much, yeah. Likely during development and the first year after, they had been working on armor sets to release in various ways. Just thinking from common sense, if your game would release with a “cash shop”, wouldn’t you have created things from the start to put in it? And made plans and started work on things to release later in the game’s life for both events, rewards and cash shop?

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Posted by: Frenchtoastersticks.8061

Frenchtoastersticks.8061

i dont doubt it takes 9 months. should it? probably not. because it taking 9 months likely means they arent devoting many resources to it. threads like this wont magically make it take less than 9 months but it SHOULD tell anet to try and put resources there to make players happier.

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Posted by: Kamara.4187

Kamara.4187

It’s very well to say make more armor however they said it takes 9 months to make one set for 2 sexes and 5 races. How does your suggestion get them out faster than that.

I doubt that outfits significantly compete with armor in production time. Outfits can probably be made by a couple of people who don’t have the specialized knowledge of how to make armor in this game. In other words, the armor team and the outfit team are different and the armor team needs to do and know more.

If it is taking 9 months to to do an armor set for just two genders someone is going about it all wrong. Coded templates should have been in the files after launch that could have improved work flow for parenting, rigging, collision, assigning stats, inventory, equipping/unequipping, along with assigning particle effects if any.

Clipping checks could stretch out if each item is tested against every other set and animation cycles, but even that should have had a test program in place to improve future work flow. Tools/presets are king for doing things faster and more efficient.

Edited because I’m the queen of typos. UV mesh and texture assigning were not mentioned because there is no preset for that but maya makes that a snap.

(edited by Kamara.4187)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

To be more accurate, the game was released with 34 armor sets and they added 14 more sets in the 4 years since release..

exactly, and half(?) of those were added within the first year.

5 in 2013
4 in 2014
3 in 2015
2 in 2016 (see a pattern?)
I’m willing to bet that in 2017 we’ll get 1 armor set which will be the Legendary Armor. I hope I’m proven wrong.

The wiki doesn’t have information on when each outfit was released so it’s harder to compile a list of those. It would be nice to know though, because we could see how Outfit generation progressed through the years.

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Posted by: sorudo.9054

sorudo.9054

if it seriously takes 9 months to make 1 armor set per weight then i wonder how slow they work, back when i was modding i helped making animations to work with clothing and ppl made models within a week.
and before ppl whine about a time frame in a company like GW2, it took 1 person to make a complicated 3D model to work with my animation. (which is made on my own too)

Anet can make a full set for each race and weight within 2 months, the whole BS about 9 months is ridicules anyway.
better yet, i dunno how many has kept track but all armors are rescales of the base human character, only the charr needs it’s own armor model and that is largely reused from the human model.

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Posted by: Kaleban.9834

Kaleban.9834

The 9 months thing is an example of always overestimate your timetable so if you come in under it you look good. Stick one person on armor sets, and that means ANet is saying it takes 1440 man-hours of coding and design.

Assume the base coding is done (obviously) then you really only need to worry about design, so only 720 man-hours to think up something, draw it out and input it into the game.

As sorudo points out, nearly all the armor sets are simply one model that is scaled to fit different sized characters (i.e. morphing and stretching). Anet clearly doesn’t have to make a different armor set for each permutation of the height and weight sliders, so it’s highly unlikely that to put it on a Nord, Human or Sylvari requires any effort, and the Asura simply get different boots.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

Some of you guys underestimating the devs and their workload is hilarious. I mean, if you want to boost the workflow so bad, why not apply for a job there yourself?

That being said, we are also part of the reason armor takes so long to be released. Have you seen how many complaint threads pop up about clipping? You’d think the game was somehow released with zero clipping or bugs.

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Posted by: videoboy.4162

videoboy.4162

At the very least, I wish they would release the gloves and shoes from a lot of the outfits as individual pieces. Some of the outfits have really cool ones (like Marjory’s new outfit) and Anet has said before that those particular pieces weren’t as hard to make.

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Posted by: MeinUguu.8256

MeinUguu.8256

i dont doubt it takes 9 months. should it? probably not. because it taking 9 months likely means they arent devoting many resources to it. threads like this wont magically make it take less than 9 months but it SHOULD tell anet to try and put resources there to make players happier.

They don’t care if players are happy.

That’s been made evident by the fact that errors that have existed since -DAY ONE- are still around and plaguing the game.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

i dont doubt it takes 9 months. should it? probably not. because it taking 9 months likely means they arent devoting many resources to it. threads like this wont magically make it take less than 9 months but it SHOULD tell anet to try and put resources there to make players happier.

They don’t care if players are happy.

That’s been made evident by the fact that errors that have existed since -DAY ONE- are still around and plaguing the game.

See what I mean?

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Posted by: Hybarf Tics.2048

Hybarf Tics.2048

My opinion is short on the matter, I’m sick of outfits bring back armor also the skimpy ones. I miss GW 1 for armors back when the company was open minded and had style.
Now it’s nothing less than a fashion dictatorship. Anet creates outfits we pay we wear we shut up,

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Posted by: Frenchtoastersticks.8061

Frenchtoastersticks.8061

i dont doubt it takes 9 months. should it? probably not. because it taking 9 months likely means they arent devoting many resources to it. threads like this wont magically make it take less than 9 months but it SHOULD tell anet to try and put resources there to make players happier.

They don’t care if players are happy.

That’s been made evident by the fact that errors that have existed since -DAY ONE- are still around and plaguing the game.

thats why i said should not will

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Posted by: Tenrai Senshi.2017

Tenrai Senshi.2017

If you want to believe that it doesn’t take 9 months in spite of having a full staff of people, I don’t see what anyone could say that would change your mind.

Not wanting it to be true won’t change how long it takes.

And if you want to believe whatever you are told based on vague information, then that’s fine, but don’t be surprised when other people question it and ask for a bit more information so they can better understand it. You say you don’t see what anyone could say to change my mind, well the answer is that they could just say a bit more than what they have. Give me information, help me understand the limitations more, give me some proper insight into the development challenges or the size of the team, etc, don’t just give me a vague timeline and little else and expect me to nod my head like an ignorant child who must always accept the absurd notion that their parent always knows best.

This is one thing that irritates me about some members of our community. They accept whatever they’re told and never expect more. We allow our expectations to drop and it often leads to a drop in quality on deliverables in the game. When we lower our standards, so do the devs because it lets them get away with less, and ask more for it. And frankly, I think that’s not only an injustice to ourselves, but to the devs as well.

I expect more. And you know what? That’s actually a compliment to the development team, because it means I believe in their capabilities and their potential. I certainly wouldn’t waste my time asking for something on a game forum unless I actually cared about the game, or believed that the team was capable of achieving it. It saddens me to think that so many players out there are willing to accept mediocrity though, because I think that’s insulting both to themselves and the development team.

But hey, you can just keep on about how not wanting to believe it won’t change how long it takes. You can accept the status quo without ever questioning it, or without ever expecting more. But I hope you don’t believe that you are actually doing the devs a favor with that mindset, because lowering our expectations could hurt the quality of this game in the long run.

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

we are also part of the reason armor takes so long to be released. Have you seen how many complaint threads pop up about clipping? You’d think the game was somehow released with zero clipping or bugs.

people shouldn’t complain about clipping, things clip, thats just a fact of MMOs
you want that 12 ft long kitten sword? its going to clip.
clipping is a non-issue and people shouldn’t complain about it.

thaere is a similar excuse i hear a lot for why outfits can’t be converted in to armours, people say “oh its because they’d need to be cut at odd points”.
which is a bad excuse because there are plenty of ingame armours which already does that, yet we still mix and match them to make them work

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

I can understand just by looking at most outfits that the chest and leggings parts cannot be split, they are a full skin and it wouldn’t make sense to use parts from different armor/outfit skins on chests and leggings. I get that and I can deal with it. The “seams” and no fit issue is between chest and leggings too.

But I don’t understand why we can’t hide the boots, gloves and shoulders. If they allow us to hide those, and even better, when you do your regular armor skin appears, it would solve most issues players have with outfits. And I’m sure the amount of complaining with be reduced significantly.

Some shoulders/gloves/boots are integral parts of the skins too. But that’s not always the case, for example:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nature's_Oath_Outfit
There is absolutely no connection between the boots and the gloves in this outfit. Why can’t I hide the boots/gloves of this one and use different skins instead?

On the other hand I can see how https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Executioner's_Outfit
is a complete package and not much can be hidden here (other than the head)

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

I can understand just by looking at most outfits that the chest and leggings parts cannot be split, they are a full skin and it wouldn’t make sense to use parts from different armor/outfit skins on chests and leggings.

that is the same with quite a lot of ingame armour,
they envision the player using both the chest and legs to make it appear seamless,
but you CAN make it work with other armours.

here is a small example of a chest/leg set that is split at an odd spot,
and when used seperately it can look horrible if used badly,
but can be mixed with other armours to make it work.

Attachments:

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Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

As sorudo points out, nearly all the armor sets are simply one model that is scaled to fit different sized characters (i.e. morphing and stretching). Anet clearly doesn’t have to make a different armor set for each permutation of the height and weight sliders, so it’s highly unlikely that to put it on a Nord, Human or Sylvari requires any effort, and the Asura simply get different boots.

I can count with the fingers of a hand the boots that work properly on Asura. They don’t even make that effort.

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
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