Guild Wars 2

The term “exploit” itself is just a big joke. What is an exploit? If there is a clear and objective definition, then any player should be able to judge a given situation and reach the same conclusion as anyone else. However, that’s not remotely what we have here. We have people disagreeing about what is and isn’t an exploit. We have people presenting several different examples and challenging others to find the exploits, like it’s a game. We have links to ArenaNet developer comments in some other discussion thread, where they give a vague “rule of thumb” which explains nothing.

We have a guy honestly saying that a Mesmer using portals to get other players from point A to point B is an exploit. Are you kidding me!? In World of Warcraft, you could have a Mage portal your character to any major city. Many players tipped a Mage for bringing their lowbie alts to the endgame hub city, because that city had permanent warps to all the other cities in the game. We could set our “Hearthstone” there (insta-warp, on a cooldown), for fast and free travel around the world any time. Often, players would tip the Mage for their trouble. No one ever considered for a moment that it was an “exploit,” it was just another part of the game. Blizzard never banned anyone for doing that.

If ArenaNet doesn’t like other players going through Mesmer portals, they should never have allowed it. I would not, in a million years, consider calling that an “exploit.” If it is, then every player who ever stepped through a Mesmer portal should be banned, right? Whether or not this opinion represents the majority, or whatever ANet’s feelings are on it — it only goes to show how unclear the concept has become. Why do we even have to wonder and debate about it?

Can you be arrested for breaking a law that was never written? If I use the Konami code to get 30 lives in Contra, should my game self-destruct? If I read a spoiler for Game of Thrones on the internet, should I be banned from watching the show or reading the books? If you pay for a drink at a vending machine and 2 or 3 come out instead of one, do you get banned from the machine? Should we be worrying about being banned by our cell phone company, if we call too often during evenings and weekends?

When you “exploit,” you are not cheating. You are not hacking. You are not patching the game to function differently, and you are not using add-ons. You are playing entirely within the rules that ArenaNet created. If they decide that they don’t like the way a certain thing in the game is working, or if it was in error, then by all means — patch it out. Fix it. If it’s a huge enough mistake, roll accounts back and explain what happened. Warn people about watching out for exploits, and encourage us to report anything we find.

I assume the element of mystery surrounding what gets you banned is part of a tactic to combat those who are actively trying to abuse the game mechanics, or to catch botters. But at the same time, they are promoting a hostile environment for legitimate players. Why on earth would anyone report an exploit they discovered, if doing so could get their account banned? Why should we worry about “the man” being out to get us, in a video game? We are the customers — ArenaNet is providing a service to us, which we paid for.

Maybe we should get banned for using a profession that will later get nerfed because it was judged “overpowered.” Maybe we should get banned for using gw2lfg.com, or referencing the Dragon Timer site. Maybe we should get banned doing repeated runs of CoF Path 1. Do you disagree? Too bad, because under the current system you have no basis for telling me it is or isn’t an exploit.

Oh, but ANet “only banned the worst offenders,” you might say. Alright, so then only the people with the most overpowered profession will be banned. Only the people who ran CoF1 the most will be banned. Only the most prolific dragon event runners will be kicked out of the game. I still have no idea what an exploit is, and neither does anyone else.

I don’t honestly think using portal is an exploit. I’m merely pointing out that defining exploits as “skipping stuff” is vague, and as such, using portal to help people “skip stuff” fits that definition. In fact, it is the idea that I think we all agree that using portal isn’t an exploit that shows that lordkrall’s definition is bogus.

That is the point. Learning to read would help a lot of people in this thread.

clay.7849:

Although, now that we mention it, I think that thieves using culling in WvW gave them an unfair advantage. Would that be an exploit? If so, why weren’t all the people that did that banned?

Your definition of exploit as it relates to perma-bans is quite vague and poorly defined.

Culling was intentional on the part of the developers. An item priced at one-tenth of what it obviously should be wasn’t. It’s probably a good clue that when you’ve hit the ore for the 40th time in a row and it still hasn’t run out, it’s probably bugged. It’s really not rocket-science, no matter how much you want play with semantics.

Common sense dictates what a true exploit is. The unfortunate part is it isn’t all that common anymore, apparently.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Although, now that we mention it, I think that thieves using culling in WvW gave them an unfair advantage. Would that be an exploit? If so, why weren’t all the people that did that banned?

Your definition of exploit as it relates to perma-bans is quite vague and poorly defined.

Culling was intentional on the part of the developers. An item priced at one-tenth of what it obviously should be wasn’t. It’s probably a good clue that when you’ve hit the ore for the 40th time in a row and it still hasn’t run out, it’s probably bugged. It’s really not rocket-science, no matter how much you want play with semantics.

Common sense dictates what a true exploit is. The unfortunate part is it isn’t all that common anymore, apparently.

But people used it to gain an unfair advantage, which is part of lordkrall’s definition of an exploit.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

tolunart.2095:

Anet is generally sensible about these things. Do something ten times and realize it’s a bug/exploit, no problem. Do it a hundred times, get banned, appeal and say “hey, I stopped as soon as I realized it’s an exploit.” They say, “ok you can play the game.” Do it a thousand times and you can’t come back.

It’s their sandbox and they make the rules. Whether you like the rules or not is irrelevant, you don’t get to tell them what the rules are. If you don’t like it, single player games have cheat codes posted, you can play Skyrim or something and have unlimited gold, all the best equipment, etc. And no one will ban you.

Problem is, no one knows what ANets cutoffs are. I may do something ten times and never realize it was an exploit (where could I ever find out unless banned?)

Second, I like the rules. I want exploiters to be banned. I don’t want anyone to take advantage of the game and potentially ruin it for others.

Just let me know what the rules are and I’ll follow them. Don’t just say, “Don’t exploit!” cause that isn’t always clear, as I’ve stated above.

They arnt going to announce cutoffs because magnitudes can change.
They are not going to pre-notify you of exploits because that is just stupid.
It currently isn’t too hard to figure out what an exploit is. Yes I can answer any of your questions of whether or not something is an exploit, and the likelihood it will lead to a ban.
Killing 20 rats in a cave isn’t an exploit, and wont lead to a ban. There are places in the game with a lot of creatures like this, specifically the borderlands maps in wvw for the invading factions.
Getting kill credit for a rat that instantly respawns instantly over and over again is an exploit, but it is unlikely to get you banned (magnitude of effect).

A lot of the bans have to do with magnitude threshholds on different metrics, and can change.

Did you make 1g off the exploit or did you make 1,000g?

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Although, now that we mention it, I think that thieves using culling in WvW gave them an unfair advantage. Would that be an exploit? If so, why weren’t all the people that did that banned?

Your definition of exploit as it relates to perma-bans is quite vague and poorly defined.

Culling was intentional on the part of the developers. An item priced at one-tenth of what it obviously should be wasn’t. It’s probably a good clue that when you’ve hit the ore for the 40th time in a row and it still hasn’t run out, it’s probably bugged. It’s really not rocket-science, no matter how much you want play with semantics.

Common sense dictates what a true exploit is. The unfortunate part is it isn’t all that common anymore, apparently.

But people used it to gain an unfair advantage, which is part of lordkrall’s definition of an exploit.

I never said I agreed with his definition.

I’m saying apply common sense and the picture becomes pretty clear.

clay.7849:

I don’t honestly think using portal is an exploit. I’m merely pointing out that defining exploits as “skipping stuff” is vague, and as such, using portal to help people “skip stuff” fits that definition. In fact, it is the idea that I think we all agree that using portal isn’t an exploit that shows that lordkrall’s definition is bogus.

That is the point. Learning to read would help a lot of people in this thread.

Does EVERYONE skip things when using a portal? Or does the mesmer actually have to do the thing in question in order to get the portal up for people?
I have asked this several times but for some reason you ignore it.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Although, now that we mention it, I think that thieves using culling in WvW gave them an unfair advantage. Would that be an exploit? If so, why weren’t all the people that did that banned?

Your definition of exploit as it relates to perma-bans is quite vague and poorly defined.

Culling was intentional on the part of the developers. An item priced at one-tenth of what it obviously should be wasn’t. It’s probably a good clue that when you’ve hit the ore for the 40th time in a row and it still hasn’t run out, it’s probably bugged. It’s really not rocket-science, no matter how much you want play with semantics.

Common sense dictates what a true exploit is. The unfortunate part is it isn’t all that common anymore, apparently.

But people used it to gain an unfair advantage, which is part of lordkrall’s definition of an exploit.

It was an exploit of game mechanics, but not a bannable one. There is a difference.

Thieves could not avoid exploiting culling, stealth is a defined role of their class. Though some players took this to the extreme there is no way to ban these players for using their skills as intended.

The stealth spamming builds still exist post culling meaning they weren’t designed explicitly to exploit culling.

Draygo.9473:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Although, now that we mention it, I think that thieves using culling in WvW gave them an unfair advantage. Would that be an exploit? If so, why weren’t all the people that did that banned?

Your definition of exploit as it relates to perma-bans is quite vague and poorly defined.

Culling was intentional on the part of the developers. An item priced at one-tenth of what it obviously should be wasn’t. It’s probably a good clue that when you’ve hit the ore for the 40th time in a row and it still hasn’t run out, it’s probably bugged. It’s really not rocket-science, no matter how much you want play with semantics.

Common sense dictates what a true exploit is. The unfortunate part is it isn’t all that common anymore, apparently.

But people used it to gain an unfair advantage, which is part of lordkrall’s definition of an exploit.

It was an exploit of game mechanics, but not a bannable one. There is a difference.

Thieves could not avoid exploiting culling, stealth is a defined role of their class. Though some players took this to the extreme there is no way to ban these players for using their skills as intended.

The stealth spamming builds still exist post culling meaning they weren’t designed explicitly to exploit culling.

And there it is….common sense.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Although, now that we mention it, I think that thieves using culling in WvW gave them an unfair advantage. Would that be an exploit? If so, why weren’t all the people that did that banned?

Your definition of exploit as it relates to perma-bans is quite vague and poorly defined.

Culling was intentional on the part of the developers. An item priced at one-tenth of what it obviously should be wasn’t. It’s probably a good clue that when you’ve hit the ore for the 40th time in a row and it still hasn’t run out, it’s probably bugged. It’s really not rocket-science, no matter how much you want play with semantics.

Common sense dictates what a true exploit is. The unfortunate part is it isn’t all that common anymore, apparently.

But people used it to gain an unfair advantage, which is part of lordkrall’s definition of an exploit.

I never said I agreed with his definition.

I’m saying apply common sense and the picture becomes pretty clear.

The whole point of me posting was to show that his definition is vague. I have no other argument on this matter except that exploits can sometimes be vague as well. And, some games don’t punish you for exploits as much as others.

lordkrall.7241:

clay.7849:

I don’t honestly think using portal is an exploit. I’m merely pointing out that defining exploits as “skipping stuff” is vague, and as such, using portal to help people “skip stuff” fits that definition. In fact, it is the idea that I think we all agree that using portal isn’t an exploit that shows that lordkrall’s definition is bogus.

That is the point. Learning to read would help a lot of people in this thread.

Does EVERYONE skip things when using a portal? Or does the mesmer actually have to do the thing in question in order to get the portal up for people?
I have asked this several times but for some reason you ignore it.

Because it is irrelevant to your definition. Your definition simply said allowing people to skip stuff. That is it. The reason I used portal is because it almost always is a part of letting people skip stuff.

clay.7849:

Because it is irrelevant to your definition. Your definition simply said allowing people to skip stuff. That is it. The reason I used portal is because it almost always is a part of letting people skip stuff.

Alright, I should have been clearer:
An exploit is if EVERYONE IN THE PARTY WITHOUT USE OF SKILLS can skip stuff that is not designed to be skipable.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Although, now that we mention it, I think that thieves using culling in WvW gave them an unfair advantage. Would that be an exploit? If so, why weren’t all the people that did that banned?

Your definition of exploit as it relates to perma-bans is quite vague and poorly defined.

Culling was intentional on the part of the developers. An item priced at one-tenth of what it obviously should be wasn’t. It’s probably a good clue that when you’ve hit the ore for the 40th time in a row and it still hasn’t run out, it’s probably bugged. It’s really not rocket-science, no matter how much you want play with semantics.

Common sense dictates what a true exploit is. The unfortunate part is it isn’t all that common anymore, apparently.

But people used it to gain an unfair advantage, which is part of lordkrall’s definition of an exploit.

I never said I agreed with his definition.

I’m saying apply common sense and the picture becomes pretty clear.

The whole point of me posting was to show that his definition is vague. I have no other argument on this matter except that exploits can sometimes be vague as well. And, some games don’t punish you for exploits as much as others.

There are exploits of game design, which are acceptable. Examples being using portals to skip content, or running through mobs instead of fighting them because they are on leashes, or jumping down a cliff and risking dying instead of fighting mobs.

Then there are the exploits of an obvious bug/programming error…i.e. the karma exploit. It was obvious, and I mean OBVIOUS, that wasn’t intended design. Or a bugged ore vein which gives up infinite ores.

Again, it isn’t rocket science.

lordkrall.7241:

clay.7849:

Because it is irrelevant to your definition. Your definition simply said allowing people to skip stuff. That is it. The reason I used portal is because it almost always is a part of letting people skip stuff.

Alright, I should have been clearer:
An exploit is if EVERYONE IN THE PARTY WITHOUT USE OF SKILLS can skip stuff that is not designed to be skipable.

You mean like running through mobs that are leashed? :P

clay.7849:

I don’t honestly think using portal is an exploit. I’m merely pointing out that defining exploits as “skipping stuff” is vague, and as such, using portal to help people “skip stuff” fits that definition. In fact, it is the idea that I think we all agree that using portal isn’t an exploit that shows that lordkrall’s definition is bogus.

That is the point. Learning to read would help a lot of people in this thread.

Are you talking to me? When I mentioned that someone actually thought Mesmer portals were an exploit, I wasn’t talking about you, I was talking about Mirta. He said: “exploit. Both the player using it and the mesmer doing it.” But thanks for telling me I don’t know how to read.

Fyrebrand.4859:

We have a guy honestly saying that a Mesmer using portals to get other players from point A to point B is an exploit. Are you kidding me!?

CoF case – you’re skipping a whole event you’re not supposed to skip by portalling TROUGH A WALL.
You’re using the portal skill to have someone skip a whole jumping puzzle just to get rewards. Those obstacles between you and the chest were not placed as something optional, therefore you’re using your skill to break the game essentially.

I’ve been playing online games pretty hardcore about as long as commercial ISPs have been publicly available.

Somehow I’ve managed all that time and never once been banned from a game for exploiting because I was well aware of what was and wasn’t acceptable.

Anyone else can do the same thing. It isn’t difficult and no one is fooled into thinking otherwise.

Mirta.5029:

Fyrebrand.4859:

We have a guy honestly saying that a Mesmer using portals to get other players from point A to point B is an exploit. Are you kidding me!?

CoF case – you’re skipping a whole event you’re not supposed to skip by portalling TROUGH A WALL.
You’re using the portal skill to have someone skip a whole jumping puzzle just to get rewards. Those obstacles between you and the chest were not placed as something optional, therefore you’re using your skill to break the game essentially.

See, what you’re describing are indeed unfortunate circumstances in programming error, developer oversights, bugs, etc. It’s not our fault that they’re in the game. If ANet doesn’t like it, they should fix it, and be more careful with how their skills can be used in the environments they put us in. I see no reason to permanently ban players as a punishment for ArenaNet’s mistake.

And it is ArenaNet’s mistake, let’s not forget. Who wrote the rules that allowed Mesmers to port through a wall? Who decided to let other players enter a Mesmer’s portal? I don’t think these “exploiters” hacked the game and changed lines of code, do you?

The fact that such bugs exist, and that they allow people to accomplish feats not foreseen by the developers, is certainly cause for concern. It highlights the importance of double-checking their work before releasing content, and the need for a quick response when such errors are found. But an exploit — if it’s anything — is something that exists in the game, it’s not something people do.

With regards to the jumping puzzle mechanic, skipping players to the end using a portal — I don’t even remotely agree with you. In fact, I’m not even certain such behaviours weren’t intended, and they’re certainly something ArenaNet is aware of. If a portal can’t be used to get someone somewhere, what the heck was it intended for?
They can disallow other players from entering Mesmer portals. They can disable it during jumping puzzles. It does not fall on us to decipher when and where it’s okay to use a particular profession skill in the way it was designed.

Minion of Vey.4398:

I’ve been playing online games pretty hardcore about as long as commercial ISPs have been publicly available.

Somehow I’ve managed all that time and never once been banned from a game for exploiting because I was well aware of what was and wasn’t acceptable.

Anyone else can do the same thing. It isn’t difficult and no one is fooled into thinking otherwise.

Define “exploit,” then. Should be easy, right?

Mirta.5029:

Fyrebrand.4859:

We have a guy honestly saying that a Mesmer using portals to get other players from point A to point B is an exploit. Are you kidding me!?

CoF case – you’re skipping a whole event you’re not supposed to skip by portalling TROUGH A WALL.
You’re using the portal skill to have someone skip a whole jumping puzzle just to get rewards. Those obstacles between you and the chest were not placed as something optional, therefore you’re using your skill to break the game essentially.

What are portals for then?

Fyrebrand.4859:

Mirta.5029:

Fyrebrand.4859:

We have a guy honestly saying that a Mesmer using portals to get other players from point A to point B is an exploit. Are you kidding me!?

CoF case – you’re skipping a whole event you’re not supposed to skip by portalling TROUGH A WALL.
You’re using the portal skill to have someone skip a whole jumping puzzle just to get rewards. Those obstacles between you and the chest were not placed as something optional, therefore you’re using your skill to break the game essentially.

See, what you’re describing are indeed unfortunate circumstances in programming error, developer oversights, bugs, etc. It’s not our fault that they’re in the game. If ANet doesn’t like it, they should fix it, and be more careful with how their skills can be used in the environments they put us in. I see no reason to permanently ban players as a punishment for ArenaNet’s mistake.

And it is ArenaNet’s mistake, let’s not forget. Who wrote the rules that allowed Mesmers to port through a wall? Who decided to let other players enter a Mesmer’s portal? I don’t think these “exploiters” hacked the game and changed lines of code, do you?

The fact that such bugs exist, and that they allow people to accomplish feats not foreseen by the developers, is certainly cause for concern. It highlights the importance of double-checking their work before releasing content, and the need for a quick response when such errors are found. But an exploit — if it’s anything — is something that exists in the game, it’s not something people do.

With regards to the jumping puzzle mechanic, skipping players to the end using a portal — I don’t even remotely agree with you. In fact, I’m not even certain such behaviours weren’t intended, and they’re certainly something ArenaNet is aware of. If a portal can’t be used to get someone somewhere, what the heck was it intended for?
They can disallow other players from entering Mesmer portals. They can disable it during jumping puzzles. It does not fall on us to decipher when and where it’s okay to use a particular profession skill in the way it was designed.

an exploit is an abuse of a bug. When portals were being abused in WvW instead of banning a whole bunch of people they changed the way portals can be used. Expect that to happen with PVE content as well. Though expect some people knowingly abusing the bug (exploiting) to also be banned.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

What are portals for then?

a legal way to kite the boss by giving yourself some distance, a way to travel between two points faster (in example – Cliffside fractal, two seals).

Fyrebrand.4859:

They can disallow other players from entering Mesmer portals. They can disable it during jumping puzzles. It does not fall on us to decipher when and where it’s okay to use a particular profession skill in the way it was designed.

Keep telling yourself this but when you abuse bugs using spells, items or hacks, you’re responsible for your own actions and it’s up to you to report bugs where you find them, it IS your duty to decipher when and where it’s okay to use a skill.

Mesmer portals are useful for kiting, for teamwork (CoE lasers) and for otherwise aiding mobility in combat. Use of the ability to exploit a bug and bypass or break events IS an exploit.

If you find yourself being banned or suspended from the game for your exploiting, don’t respond with “I didn’t know” because you’re just making excuses for yourself.

Edit: You’re like a person shop-lifting and saying “well I have this bag, what else should I use it for?”

clay.7849:

But people used it to gain an unfair advantage, which is part of lordkrall’s definition of an exploit.

How on earth do you detect it?

Here’s the issue with the term exploit and what it entails: it’s totally subjective. The law is the same way sometimes and therefore you hear the term “spirit of the law” when you see a judge rule on something.

So here goes:

The mesmer using a portal to get people past the jumping puzzle is against the “spirit” of the concept of jumping puzzles, but I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. In the end, who cares. I would expect that, if A-Net had a problem with it, and I’m not sure they do, and they caught you, your first offense would be a warning. After that it gets more severe. But I’m not sure how practical keeping track of all that is. A players “warning” status or whatever. That being said, I wouldn’t do it, personally.

The mesmer using a portal to get past the boulders in CoF P1 or the past bandit horde in CM butler path is not an exploit, because what else is the portal for? Why have it in the game at all if you couldn’t use it like this? Is there another real use for a portal? It doesn’t violate the spirit of the portal, but using iot to skip a jumping puzzle violates the spirit of the puzzle. That’s the purpose of the puzzle. The purpose of CoF P1 is NOT the boulder trap. Make sense, or am I talking garbage?

Also the law has a concept of “reasonableness” that we can apply here, too. Like the one cheap vendor item that’s vastly cheaper than other comparable items on that same vendor. What does a reasonable person think? I think in general, most people would feel that abusing that, buying 500 and putting them in the mystic forge is an exploit.

The game let me! Is not an excuse or mitigation. Your car lets you drive 100 miles an hour, but that doesn’t mean you should. Ah, but there is a posted speed limit, you may say. Sure, there is. But what’s the law when there is no posted speed limit? Most places have a reasonable and safe catch-all rule in those cases. It’s an inexact allegory, but I think it fits. Google “no posted speed limit law” if you want. Here’s Minnesota’s if anyone cares:

No person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions.

You’re never going to get a concrete definition of an exploit, because there just isn’t one.

Hoyvin.3241:

The mesmer using a portal to get past the boulders in CoF P1 or the past bandit horde in CM butler path is not an exploit, because what else is the portal for? Why have it in the game at all if you couldn’t use it like this? Is there another real use for a portal?

it is an obvious exploit though, because you’re skipping a full event that is as stated not optional. Anet was informed about it in another topic though and said that they will redesign CoF and is tracking that instance closely right now.
The portal is for kiting, helping teammates and covering short distances faster (fractal Cliffside two seal part for example)

Mirta.5029:

an exploit is an abuse of a bug.

As we have seen, “bug” is subjective. You think using Mesmer portals in jumping puzzles is a “bug,” and others do not. It’s a complicated issue, not clearly defined, and not all circumstances are created equal or have equal consequences.
And yet, the punishment for all exploits is the same: immediate permanent BAN, without warning. In my mind, issuing the death penalty for all crimes does not make for a wise system.

Mirta.5029:

When portals were being abused in WvW instead of banning a whole bunch of people they changed the way portals can be used. Expect that to happen with PVE content as well. Though expect some people knowingly abusing the bug (exploiting) to also be banned.

No! Jeez, this paragraph was so reasonable, until that last sentence! Expect “some” people to be banned? Which people? Which bugs? You and I can’t even agree on what is and isn’t a bug, in the first place! And yet you think it’s perfectly fine for ArenaNet to ban people permanently and without warning, for breaking rules that were never written.

Let me paint you a picture:

You’re driving down the highway at 60 km/h (kilometers, I’m Canadian), and a cop pulls you over.
You: “Good afternoon, officer. Was I doing something wrong?”
Cop: “Yes. You were driving well above the speed limit.”
You: “Oh? I’m sure I was doing 60. The sign clearly says 60 is the speed limit.”
Cop: “That was clearly a printing error on the sign. The speed limit is 40km/h. You should have known this was an error and matched your speed to the limit you actually knew it was.”
You: “What!? How was I supposed to know? I didn’t make the speed limit sign. This is the government’s error, I’m not at fault for their mistakes!”
Cop: “You should have expected to be caught for this. Doesn’t this highway seem to you like a 40km/h highway? You knew it was wrong. And now your license is revoked, forever.”
You: “Wait, I don’t even get a speeding ticket? Anyone who doesn’t obey an imaginary speed limit just has their license revoked?!”
Cop: “Not everyone. We only nail the worst offenders. You’ve been over the limit for an hour now. You’re not fooling anyone. Now step out of the car, please.”

Fyrebrand.4859:

Let me paint you a picture:

You’re driving down the highway at 60 km/h (kilometers, I’m Canadian), and a cop pulls you over.
You: “Good afternoon, officer. Was I doing something wrong?”
Cop: “Yes. You were driving well above the speed limit.”
You: “Oh? I’m sure I was doing 60. The sign clearly says 60 is the speed limit.”
Cop: “That was clearly a printing error on the sign. The speed limit is 40km/h. You should have known this was an error and matched your speed to the limit you actually knew it was.”
You: “What!? How was I supposed to know? I didn’t make the speed limit sign. This is the government’s error, I’m not at fault for their mistakes!”
Cop: “You should have expected to be caught for this. Doesn’t this highway seem to you like a 40km/h highway? You knew it was wrong. And now your license is revoked, forever.”
You: “Wait, I don’t even get a speeding ticket? Anyone who doesn’t obey an imaginary speed limit just has their license revoked?!”
Cop: “Not everyone. We only nail the worst offenders. You’ve been over the limit for an hour now. You’re not fooling anyone. Now step out of the car, please.”

The picture in most cases would be:
I was driving at 600 km/h because that sign said so. The sign was supposed to say 60 km/h, but I didn’t even think about it.
I’m pretty sure that nobody will be banned for jumping puzzle skipping, but I’m also pretty sure that that thing will be addressed. I’m not so sure about nobody getting banned for CoF.
Most people that do get banned obviously know that it’s an exploit. Examples: dungeon chat logs of “guys, I know how to exploit this” and people finding an infinite node, thinking nothing of it, but then mining a whole inventory full and rushing to sell. Snowflake abuses were doing it on an incredible scale and rushing to sell. Because they knew that it will be solved and they need to push out thousands of ectos or thousands of stacks of ore BEFORE it gets fixed.

Fyrebrand.4859:

Mirta.5029:

an exploit is an abuse of a bug.

As we have seen, “bug” is subjective. You think using Mesmer portals in jumping puzzles is a “bug,” and others do not. It’s a complicated issue, not clearly defined, and not all circumstances are created equal or have equal consequences.
And yet, the punishment for all exploits is the same: immediate permanent BAN, without warning. In my mind, issuing the death penalty for all crimes does not make for a wise system.

Mirta.5029:

When portals were being abused in WvW instead of banning a whole bunch of people they changed the way portals can be used. Expect that to happen with PVE content as well. Though expect some people knowingly abusing the bug (exploiting) to also be banned.

No! Jeez, this paragraph was so reasonable, until that last sentence! Expect “some” people to be banned? Which people? Which bugs? You and I can’t even agree on what is and isn’t a bug, in the first place! And yet you think it’s perfectly fine for ArenaNet to ban people permanently and without warning, for breaking rules that were never written.

Let me paint you a picture:

You’re driving down the highway at 60 km/h (kilometers, I’m Canadian), and a cop pulls you over.
You: “Good afternoon, officer. Was I doing something wrong?”
Cop: “Yes. You were driving well above the speed limit.”
You: “Oh? I’m sure I was doing 60. The sign clearly says 60 is the speed limit.”
Cop: “That was clearly a printing error on the sign. The speed limit is 40km/h. You should have known this was an error and matched your speed to the limit you actually knew it was.”
You: “What!? How was I supposed to know? I didn’t make the speed limit sign. This is the government’s error, I’m not at fault for their mistakes!”
Cop: “You should have expected to be caught for this. Doesn’t this highway seem to you like a 40km/h highway? You knew it was wrong. And now your license is revoked, forever.”
You: “Wait, I don’t even get a speeding ticket? Anyone who doesn’t obey an imaginary speed limit just has their license revoked?!”
Cop: “Not everyone. We only nail the worst offenders. You’ve been over the limit for an hour now. You’re not fooling anyone. Now step out of the car, please.”

Using a flawed analogy doesn’t really help your case. Try this one.

You are driving on a road and see a shortcut that will shorten your trip by 10 minutes but that road is blocked off except for a hole just big enough for you to pass. Does that mean you can make use of it? It is there ready for use so from your point of view you would be okay with it.

Conner.4702:

Using a flawed analogy doesn’t really help your case.

If you feel it is a flawed analogy, feel free to explain where the flaw is. Until then, I have to assume you concede my point and merely don’t want to admit it.
I was attempting to show the ridiculousness of a scenario where it is difficult to “draw the line” when that line is imaginary and up for debate. For example, Mirta has been arguing that there are certain uses of Mesmer portals that are clear exploits, despite the fact that no such rules have ever been stated within the game or by ArenaNet, anywhere. He thinks it’s okay to use portals to kite bosses, and even okay to get from place to place within certain fractals more quickly, but it’s not okay to use them within jumping puzzles.

Honestly, it may not be possible to ever truly define what an exploit is, to any degree of objective certainty. It’s a term that relies on subjective judgments and variable circumstances. However, ArenaNet wants to deal with a subtle, complex issue using the most blunt, hard-nosed response imaginable. When I ask for more clarity on this topic, I get nothing but cop-outs, personal anecdotes about cartoonishly extreme scenarios, and insistence that it’s just “common sense.”

Hoyvin.3241:

clay.7849:

But people used it to gain an unfair advantage, which is part of lordkrall’s definition of an exploit.

How on earth do you detect it?

Here’s the issue with the term exploit and what it entails: it’s totally subjective. The law is the same way sometimes and therefore you hear the term “spirit of the law” when you see a judge rule on something.

So here goes:

The mesmer using a portal to get people past the jumping puzzle is against the “spirit” of the concept of jumping puzzles, but I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. In the end, who cares. I would expect that, if A-Net had a problem with it, and I’m not sure they do, and they caught you, your first offense would be a warning. After that it gets more severe. But I’m not sure how practical keeping track of all that is. A players “warning” status or whatever. That being said, I wouldn’t do it, personally.

The mesmer using a portal to get past the boulders in CoF P1 or the past bandit horde in CM butler path is not an exploit, because what else is the portal for? Why have it in the game at all if you couldn’t use it like this? Is there another real use for a portal? It doesn’t violate the spirit of the portal, but using iot to skip a jumping puzzle violates the spirit of the puzzle. That’s the purpose of the puzzle. The purpose of CoF P1 is NOT the boulder trap. Make sense, or am I talking garbage?

Also the law has a concept of “reasonableness” that we can apply here, too. Like the one cheap vendor item that’s vastly cheaper than other comparable items on that same vendor. What does a reasonable person think? I think in general, most people would feel that abusing that, buying 500 and putting them in the mystic forge is an exploit.

The game let me! Is not an excuse or mitigation. Your car lets you drive 100 miles an hour, but that doesn’t mean you should. Ah, but there is a posted speed limit, you may say. Sure, there is. But what’s the law when there is no posted speed limit? Most places have a reasonable and safe catch-all rule in those cases. It’s an inexact allegory, but I think it fits. Google “no posted speed limit law” if you want. Here’s Minnesota’s if anyone cares:

No person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions.

You’re never going to get a concrete definition of an exploit, because there just isn’t one.

I agree with you. That is kind of my point. It is very difficult to define what an exploit is. There are lots of exploits that happen in the game and not all of them are perma-ban-able offenses, which mean there are gray areas already.

To make matters worse, what will get you banned in one game doesn’t necessarily get you banned in another game.

Sure, there are examples of things that very clearly seem like exploits, but there are things that clearly don’t seem like exploits – at least not ban-able ones.

I am of the opinion that everyone here that thinks that exploits are a clear and defined “thing” are wrong. Sure, there are some things that are clear and defined, but a lot aren’t. So much so, that permanent bans are sometimes head scratchers compared to the offense.

Luckily, I’ve never been banned and probably haven’t used an exploit because I’m not hip to the times, but I don’t think it is black and white like a lot of people are saying.

Conner.4702:

Using a flawed analogy doesn’t really help your case. Try this one.

You are driving on a road and see a shortcut that will shorten your trip by 10 minutes but that road is blocked off except for a hole just big enough for you to pass. Does that mean you can make use of it? It is there ready for use so from your point of view you would be okay with it.

I thought Fyrebrand’s analogy was pretty spot on. What you are suggesting, Conner, is the use of a bug and that is also considered exploiting but the definition of exploiting also involves using in-game mechanics to do something that the game designer didn’t want and somehow the player is supposed to know that.

Mirta agrees with the analogy even though they are attempting to quibble with the value. 600 or 60 it doesn’t matter as the end result is the same the person is simply following the rules in good faith only to discover that following the rules was wrong and, somehow, their own fault for doing so.

I believe Mirta is attempting to suggest that the magnitude of the speed limit differential from others should make it obvious that something weird is up with this particular road. As in, if all the speed limits for 1 lane roads is 60 km/h everywhere else but this one is 600 km/h then we should probably be wondering why that is.

This is definitely a fair point but the responsibility okittennowledging the mistake and rectifying it resides with the road designer who put up the 600 km/h limit not with the driver. So, if the police officer were to stop Freybrand the conversation should go more like:

Freybrand: Good day Officer, what seems to be the problem?
Officer: A good day to you as well kind sir. I hope you are well (after all, this is a -Canadian- police officer) today. I was wondering, do you know how fast you were going?
Freybrand: I believe I was traveling at 500 km/h?
Officer: That is what I have you clocked at. Going somewhere in a rush is it?
Freybrand: Why yes! Hockey Night in Canada starts in 15 minutes.
Officer: Goodness! You’re right eh? Well, the speed limit sign is incorrect so please slow down. The correct limit is 60 km/h.
Freybrand: I was wondering about that so thanks for the heads up Officer!
Officer: My pleasure. I hope our team wins tonight eh?
Freybrand: You betcha.
Officer: Have a pleasant evening and please watch your speed.
Freybrand: And you Officer. Thanks for letting me know and being great at your job.
Officer: You are welcome! Now get out of here and watch the Senator’s reach the playoffs.
Freybrand: Yes sir Officer! I’ll drink a beer for you.

And off Freybrand drives while the police Officer goes back to his cruiser and pulls out his steaming hot cup of Timmie’s coffee.

Fyrebrand.4859:

Conner.4702:

Using a flawed analogy doesn’t really help your case.

If you feel it is a flawed analogy, feel free to explain where the flaw is. Until then, I have to assume you concede my point and merely don’t want to admit it.
I was attempting to show the ridiculousness of a scenario where it is difficult to “draw the line” when that line is imaginary and up for debate. For example, Mirta has been arguing that there are certain uses of Mesmer portals that are clear exploits, despite the fact that no such rules have ever been stated within the game or by ArenaNet, anywhere. He thinks it’s okay to use portals to kite bosses, and even okay to get from place to place within certain fractals more quickly, but it’s not okay to use them within jumping puzzles.

Honestly, it may not be possible to ever truly define what an exploit is, to any degree of objective certainty. It’s a term that relies on subjective judgments and variable circumstances. However, ArenaNet wants to deal with a subtle, complex issue using the most blunt, hard-nosed response imaginable. When I ask for more clarity on this topic, I get nothing but cop-outs, personal anecdotes about cartoonishly extreme scenarios, and insistence that it’s just “common sense.”

The flaw is you’re expecting everybody to understand that the standard speed limit of a certain single road is 40km/hr instead of 60km/hr.

Now, if you’re on a road and all the speed limit signs you have passed for the past hour state 60km/hr and you see a single sign that says “SPEED LIMIT 600km/hr” common sense would dictate that something is wrong and you’re not going to just floor it and not expect some sort of consequence.

No different than seeing a list of armor selling for 5k karma, except for one single piece on the menu listed for 50 karma. It has all the same stat levels, maybe different stats, but it’s the same color as everything on that screen.

If that doesn’t send up a red flag, I’m not sure what would.

So yes, it involves common sense.

Mirta.5029:

Fyrebrand.4859:

We have a guy honestly saying that a Mesmer using portals to get other players from point A to point B is an exploit. Are you kidding me!?

CoF case – you’re skipping a whole event you’re not supposed to skip by portalling TROUGH A WALL.

I think you and I are thinking about different things. Or maybe people are doing it differently than my regular party. We don’t go through any walls, we just put down a portal on one side of the boulders, the mesmer blinks through the boulders and puts down the other side of the portal, then the rest of us step through.

Going through a wall would be an exploit, regardless, I would think.

Hoyvin.3241:

Mirta.5029:

Fyrebrand.4859:

We have a guy honestly saying that a Mesmer using portals to get other players from point A to point B is an exploit. Are you kidding me!?

CoF case – you’re skipping a whole event you’re not supposed to skip by portalling TROUGH A WALL.

I think you and I are thinking about different things. Or maybe people are doing it differently than my regular party. We don’t go through any walls, we just put down a portal on one side of the boulders, the mesmer blinks through the boulders and puts down the other side of the portal, then the rest of us step through.

Going through a wall would be an exploit, regardless, I would think.

why should you be able to blink trough boulders though? Shouldn’t that be considered an exploit?

Mirta.5029:

why should you be able to blink trough boulders though? Shouldn’t that be considered an exploit?

Since you can’t blink through it the whole way (as far as I know) it would not be an exploit, since you are still risking getting hit by the first boulder or so.
You are not completely bypassing it.

Mirta.5029:

Hoyvin.3241:

Mirta.5029:

Fyrebrand.4859:

We have a guy honestly saying that a Mesmer using portals to get other players from point A to point B is an exploit. Are you kidding me!?

CoF case – you’re skipping a whole event you’re not supposed to skip by portalling TROUGH A WALL.

I think you and I are thinking about different things. Or maybe people are doing it differently than my regular party. We don’t go through any walls, we just put down a portal on one side of the boulders, the mesmer blinks through the boulders and puts down the other side of the portal, then the rest of us step through.

Going through a wall would be an exploit, regardless, I would think.

why should you be able to blink trough boulders though? Shouldn’t that be considered an exploit?

Why shouldn’t I be able to?

I’m using a skill of the class that seems to me to be an obvious solution to the problem. It wouldn’t have occurred to me to be an exploit. How would something like that get through a beta? It’s so obvious. There’s nothing about this particular use of portal/blink that strikes me as incongruous. It’s not a “put your cursor on this particular pixel and it takes advantage of some glitch in the mesh of the wall and you can get through” kind of thing. At the right time, there is nothing but open air between you and where you want to blink to.

This is the kind of instance where, if A-Net were to disapprove, then they should change the terrain feature enough so that you can’t use this method. To go back to my analogy, if you don’t want me going 70 mph here then post it, because it doesn’t strike me as unreasonable.

lordkrall.7241:

Mirta.5029:

why should you be able to blink trough boulders though? Shouldn’t that be considered an exploit?

Since you can’t blink through it the whole way (as far as I know) it would not be an exploit, since you are still risking getting hit by the first boulder or so.
You are not completely bypassing it.

I’m not the mesmer doing the portal, so I’m not sure.

Hoyvin.3241:

Mirta.5029:

Hoyvin.3241:

Mirta.5029:

Fyrebrand.4859:

We have a guy honestly saying that a Mesmer using portals to get other players from point A to point B is an exploit. Are you kidding me!?

CoF case – you’re skipping a whole event you’re not supposed to skip by portalling TROUGH A WALL.

I think you and I are thinking about different things. Or maybe people are doing it differently than my regular party. We don’t go through any walls, we just put down a portal on one side of the boulders, the mesmer blinks through the boulders and puts down the other side of the portal, then the rest of us step through.

Going through a wall would be an exploit, regardless, I would think.

why should you be able to blink trough boulders though? Shouldn’t that be considered an exploit?

I wouldn’t think so, no. It seems to me that it’s an obvious solution to the problem. It wouldn’t have occurred to me to be an exploit. How would something like that get through a beta? It’s so obvious. There’s nothing about this particular use of portal/blink that strikes me as incongruous. It’s not a “put your cursor on this particular pixel and it takes advantage of some glitch in the mesh of the wall and you can get through” kind of thing. At the right time, there is nothing but open air between you and where you want to blink to.

This is the kind of instance where, if A-Net were to disapprove, then they should change the terrain feature enough so that you can’t use this method. To go back to my analogy, if you don’t want me going 70 mph here then post it, because it doesn’t strike me as unreasonable.

they’re thinking of changing it and a conversation about this was going on in the dungeon sub-forums.

MMORPGs teach you to exploit. They encourage you to maximize your DPS through every means possible. They teach you that making money isn’t just a matter of having enough to be comfortable, but that it’s also an arms race against everyone else who wants to make money. They teach you that only those who outthink or outplay their fellow man are “special”. And developers do a kitt… poor job of drawing a line.

Because they can. Sadly people do all comes of ridiculous things when nobody is looking,

That being said, the term exploit is hugely vague. It doesn’t make any sense for players to know rather a random aspect of the game is working as intended when it’s clear the developers don’t know what working as intended means. For example, Blizzard clearly lists out what exactly is considered unacceptable behavior.

Let’s say I mine an ore node and for some reason it gets me 20 ore. Let’s just say every node starts doing this. Do I have to look up how many they’re “supposed” to give. And stop mining after 3?

Or let’s say I am doing a dynamic event. For some reason the event is bugged and does not end so large mobs keep spawning. What am I supposed to do here? Maybe the event is stuck, and I have to keep killing the monsters and it will be fine in a bit. Hey, I want this event chain to continue. Is it an exploit if I kill 40 more monsters. 400? I am not familiar with every event in the game, and you can’t expect people to be as well.

And banning people for exploiting boss glitches by taking advantage of safe zones is just ridiculous. How about actually making the AI functional instead of punishing people for broken mechanics? I’m pretty sure some would brand those people that would knock a koopa shell in world 3 of Super Mario Bros for infinite 1 ups to be terrible people that should burn their games.

Let’s use Starcraft as an example, where exploits in a competitive game negatively impact others. One bug allowed a player to push a worker to illegal positions very early . This proved gamebreaking and obviously was out of the bounds of regular play— thus it was fixed and exploiters banned. Another glitch allowed a certain unit to hold their fire at will and release for massive damage in a straight line to unsuspecting enemies. This glitch however was never fixed and was in fact embraced by the professional community, despite it being by any definition, exploiting something that was clearly not intended.

The later example is critical. A lot of what I dislike about Gw2, is reminiscent of what I saw in Diablo 3. Different game I know, but I just got the vibe through changes is that the developers kept patching the game to enforce their will on the community, on “how it should be played”, regardless if people like it or not. One can just look it dailies and monthlies and note that they are trying to push whatever new gimmick at us, rather than the old generic dailies that could be achieved anywhere— sure we can exclude some but previous options were lost. Meanwhile players were promised a “no grind” philosophy. And umm… then we have class balance, which seems to be more akin to whack a mole on whatever is popular as opposed to making the classes more interesting

And frankly, I really don’t care if you think I “should” be getting 15 silver from this or that 5 gold. Get your own game right first before blaming your players.

In the end, if you wish to deal out harsh punishments for cheating, Fine. But just as traffic signs are there to tell you what’s wrong and what’s not then everything else must be as clear if Arenanet gets to serve as judge, jury, and executioner. Telling the players to just “figure it out” is insanely irresponsible and merely pushes that responsibility to the player base that should have the expectation that a game should actually work properly while playing it. Notices need to be on the initial login in screen instead of buried in the forums.

the problem with any exploit rules is that they (game makers) depend on the gamer to know if they exploit or not. Imagine a total noob, never touched an MMO in his/her life finding a so called exploit and thinking nothing of it because there is no experience or concept on how this all is supposed to work.
Would it be fair to them to get banned? Even if they realize something is wrong with the game, they may not be aware of what is actually happening and what they do with it is, in the eyes of the game creators, illegal. Wouldn’t they think hey, its up to the creators to fix the game not up to me to point them to their mistakes…?

+1 for ArchonWing.9480’s post above

Isnt an exploit an unintentional bug or game design that can be ‘exploited’ by players to gain an unfair advantage over others?

Exploiting can really help reduce time in achieving your goals.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Lafiel.9372:

Question is irrelevant because those are not exploits. It’s like saying, would you stop breathing air because the government told you to. It’s a very part of the game. Exploits aren’t.

Whew, it’s a good thing you’re so well versed on what is, and isn’t an exploit in GW2. Would you be willing to post your email so those of us who aren’t sure can contact you and ask? Would you be willing to defend me if I accidentally get banned for an exploit you were wrong about?

Well, if you insist, and you’re still playing this game and not banned, i would gladly reply you if you had questions on whether your current play is exploiting something in the game. It’s really easy to figure out after all.

From what I know, the last ban waves of exploits was underlined in my below examples. Can everyone defending the exploit please answer these examples I have given earlier:

Oh this crafting item requires a lot less than usual mats compared to others of it’s same quality tier. I wonder if this is an exploit?

Oh, this karma merchant is selling something extremely cheap compared to others of its tier, I wonder if this is an exploit?

Did you really think this was not an exploit? Seriously. SERIOUSLY.

Really, I say this again, why we have so many people who do not understand the line between an exploit or not is because of the poor upbringing of other mmo games who has put the fault of exploits to the game side rather than the user. Anet has given us partial responsibility as adults to do the right thing (i.e. not to steal even though it’s in front of you) or risk the consequences. Anyone who says they don’t know if they’re exploiting something is either in extreme denial or just plain silly.

Lafiel.9372:

From what I know, the last ban waves of exploits was underlined in my below examples. Can everyone defending the exploit please answer these examples I have given earlier:

Oh this crafting item requires a lot less than usual mats compared to others of it’s same quality tier. I wonder if this is an exploit?

Oh, this karma merchant is selling something extremely cheap compared to others of its tier, I wonder if this is an exploit?

Did you really think this was not an exploit? Seriously. SERIOUSLY.

MMORPGs reward efficiency. Gw2spidey might well lead you to the first example without it ever even crossing your mind you’re doing something wrong.

awe extender.1908:

I know that hacked accounts are used to run bots and exploits, but I simply don’t understand why some (regular) players risk their own account by doing exploits?

Anet can easily track your moves and hits really hard with no mercy (perma bann), which I strongly support. We all remember the snow-flake bann avalanche.

But why risk a perma bann for an account that you have invested hundreds of fun playing hours?

Ps. Don’t exploit! The Unmerciful Hammer of Bann hits hard!

Seriously its not rocket science, As the content gets harder player instantly look for ways to circumvent it..

Look at Dungeons, Dungeons are insanely hard for very little reason so people skip the content and exploit through them to get what they want easy and fast, basically because the content is much too hard for the standard players, they find alternative ways around it..
Look at CoF part 1 super easy and fast and the most popular dungeon run in the game..

Open world we are basically told we cannot farm yet every avenue we must do forces farming upon us… so players go around it with teleport bots and such, i don’t agree with what they are doing but i see why they do what they do, also i guess they either don’t care if they are caught or just don’t think they will be caught..

I can’t tell why others hate Fotm, but a major reason i hate the content is it forces me to do 4 dungeons in a row, if i want to leave mid dungeon i’m screwed big time, and the content is far from fun, so i’m stuck in there for 4 times the dungeon and cannot leave without everyone else leaving, each completed fractal should take you back to the lab and be saved till you decide you need to do some more.. but nope.. if there was some unofficial way around that i’d take it in a heart beat…

Dante.1508:

awe extender.1908:

I know that hacked accounts are used to run bots and exploits, but I simply don’t understand why some (regular) players risk their own account by doing exploits?

Anet can easily track your moves and hits really hard with no mercy (perma bann), which I strongly support. We all remember the snow-flake bann avalanche.

But why risk a perma bann for an account that you have invested hundreds of fun playing hours?

Ps. Don’t exploit! The Unmerciful Hammer of Bann hits hard!

Seriously its not rocket science, As the content gets harder player instantly look for ways to circumvent it..

Look at Dungeons, Dungeons are insanely hard for very little reason so people skip the content and exploit through them to get what they want easy and fast, basically because the content is much too hard for the standard players, they find alternative ways around it..
Look at CoF part 1 super easy and fast and the most popular dungeon run in the game..

Open world we are basically told we cannot farm yet every avenue we must do forces farming upon us… so players go around it with teleport bots and such, i don’t agree with what they are doing but i see why they do what they do, also i guess they either don’t care if they are caught or just don’t think they will be caught..

I can’t tell why others hate Fotm, but a major reason i hate the content is it forces me to do 4 dungeons in a row, if i want to leave mid dungeon i’m screwed big time, and the content is far from fun, so i’m stuck in there for 4 times the dungeon and cannot leave without everyone else leaving, each completed fractal should take you back to the lab and be saved till you decide you need to do some more.. but nope.. if there was some unofficial way around that i’d take it in a heart beat…

1. Dungeons require skill. They require you to master your class. However they’re far from insanely hard. If they would be made easier it would be boring
2. I have never ever needed to farm in this game
3. Fractal instances are short. It’s kind of the same as wanting to leave after beating 1/5th of a dungeon.

RebelYell.7132:

Lafiel.9372:

From what I know, the last ban waves of exploits was underlined in my below examples. Can everyone defending the exploit please answer these examples I have given earlier:

Oh this crafting item requires a lot less than usual mats compared to others of it’s same quality tier. I wonder if this is an exploit?

Oh, this karma merchant is selling something extremely cheap compared to others of its tier, I wonder if this is an exploit?

Did you really think this was not an exploit? Seriously. SERIOUSLY.

MMORPGs reward efficiency. Gw2spidey might well lead you to the first example without it ever even crossing your mind you’re doing something wrong.

That is not answering my question and no, I have never done something in game repetitively and not realise if it is right or wrong… because wala! I have common sense.